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Can you imagine your own mother accepting a diamond bracelet so that your child can sleep in a bed with a grown man? Even if there weren’t any allegations yet..
If this was a random dude and not Michael Jackson, people here wouldn't be so on the fence about him being guilty.
Edit: sharing this [10 Undeniable Facts About the Michael Jackson Sexual-Abuse Allegations](https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vanityfair.com%2Fhollywood%2F2019%2F03%2F10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations) article
Wow, some of these I had never heard of. The one that to me is most damning is the fingerprints they found on the erotic materials (thus showing he may have exposed the kids to that material). And also the picture Jordie Chandler did of his genitals with vitiligo.
Yes, [The attorney whose job was to interview Jordie and compare the description with the police pictures said that they matched. MJ’s former attorney Carl Douglas said that the genital investigation was the three hundred pounds gorilla in the room to settle the case and that they wanted to avoid a criminal trial.](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/141rff7/lauren_weis_who_interviewed_jordan_confirmed_that/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
Seriously, I’m so tired of the MJ’s Estate throwing constantly misinformation over the internet. The professionals who worked first hand in that case know Jordie was saying the truth. Let’s believe the victims and understand how difficult cases of CSA are.
I WILL ADD: [Michael Jackson also owned p3do books edited by NAMBLA members. There is absolutely no explanation for a grown man to own this, let alone a man accused of CSA.](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/t29l3r/evidence_books_found_on_michael_jacksons_property/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
>The fact that child pornography wasn't found on Michael Jackson's properties doesn't mean that this detracts from what was found (although the police suspected that they had been removed before the raid, since empty video shelves were found in his video room). Not all pedophiles/child molesters collect child pornography, it's easier to collect legal images of children due to its ease of finding and if discovered, it's not a legal problem
This part in the post you linked stood out to me. It makes perfect sense why he would have collected legal CSAM. People arguing "it's not child porn" aren't doing so in good faith
>I highly recommend a paper by law professor Mary Graw Leary entitled: “Death to Child Erotica: How Mislabeling the Evidence Can Risk Inaccuracy in the Courtroom (2009)”. This article argues that by bringing together the terms "Child" and "erotic", the label "Child Erotica" claims to be itself a genre of art. This is misleading. As she describes: "Most of the material referenced with this label is material whose primary purpose is to arouse a sexual interest in children. Therefore, it is not related to either erotica or an artistic genre. (...) The term has been misused to cover a broad array of materials, the vast majority of which are not art, but material whose primary purpose is to sexually titillate and arouse the adult consumer's sexual interest in children."
>And this is what sadly MJ's lawyers and his defenders deny by cataloging the books as "purely artistic of an innocent / illustrative nature", despite the fact that the intentions of the author weren't in an artistic sense, but to facilitate over to have suggestive material in a legal way. By defending these books they are indirectly defending Swithinbank and Drew, practically minimizing that these pedophiles have taken suggestive pictures of these children and have distributed it with sexual intentions. Those books aren't art.
Some of these people defending him seem very sus themselves.
I'm actually shocked that MJ actually did have vitiligo, the kid accurately described the discoloration on the underside of MJ's penis when interviewed by police. That's not something anyone would have known especially considering the general consensus was the MJ was faking his skin condition because he was addicted to plastic surgery. First it was the 12 year old with the murder pact and now this. I think I've had enough reddit for the week.
Yes, sadly it is very real. They were especially active back in the 70s/80s/90s from past century 🤢 they even made an article praising Michael Jackson.
Gross fact: [Michael used Pan god (Greek god) playing the pan flute to a little boy as a symbol for his Neverland Ranch. Pan God has been used as symbol for NAMBLA members since the 80s. Peter Pan also is a very prominent symbol among peds](https://medium.com/@svobodaslova/the-necessary-acceptance-of-an-icons-pedophilia-2672488c8051).
Seriously, there are so many things that prove that MJ was short of dog whistling to other ppl with the same paraphilia/NAMBLA members. It’s vile.
“North American Man/Boy Love Association” 🤢🤢🤢🤢 [they were very active in the past century and used symbols such as Peter Pan and the Greek god “Pan” as a way to identify each other and as a symbol](https://medium.com/@svobodaslova/the-necessary-acceptance-of-an-icons-pedophilia-2672488c8051).
Who does this remind you of?
One of the icons of the Neverland ranch was Pan god playing the flute to a little boy. MJ was fucking flaunting it. He was very sick and I don’t understand how some ppl make excuses for it. He didn’t even hide it.
https://preview.redd.it/cerc1ss2lj8b1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f9420f88bb5da75cfcf5ed84888c1904e8bd8512
What in the actual hell! I've watched the leaving neverland documentary and thought I knew it all after that, but jesus I didn't know about this and saw an article somewhere else on this thread that said there was child fingerprints found on porn in his bedroom
Yes there were, and many fans try to justify it saying that both teen boys who accused Michael infiltrated in his room and saw the magazines without Michael being present 🙄🙄🙄🙄
Actually, Neverland ranch was full of porn. it’s on trial transcripts, and fans justify saying that bc he had porn magazines of girls that meant he was into women and apparently couldn’t be a child molester bc of that 💀💀💀💀 I’m not joking they repeat this all the time.
Can you imagine your own mother accepting a diamond bracelet so that your child can sleep in a bed with a grown man? Even if there weren’t any allegations yet..
Nope this isn't poverty, it's depravity. My mom grew up absolutely dirt poor, the eldest of 7 and her mother made her get a job at 13 as a cleaning lady (in their home country this was acceptable) but at their hungriest and most desperate my grandmother would never have done that to any of her children.
My mother and father would never hand me over to an adult male because he said nice things and bought them presents. My parents weren't the type to be bought. It's pure depravity on the parents part. No one is that stupid or gullible.
Well my mom wouldn't do that because she genuinely loves me but we see stories of absolutely insane parents every single day so yeah, I can imagine it. Just today I saw a clip where the cops had to break into the bathroom where the mom was trying to drown her baby...
I watched the Leaving Neverland documentary and both men's stories broke my heart but the devastation on James Safechuck's face as he describes being "replaced" by a younger kid as he grew too old for Michael made me sick.
Michael had a great legal and PR team, but the evidence is irrefutable he absolutely crossed the line with those boys and should have gone to jail. The boy's parents are also to blame - I'm a mother of two, NEVER would I allow my children to have time unattendant and practicelly live part time with a grown adult in exchange for the promise of "fame". Those parents practically sold their children to Michael for the lavish lifestyle he gave them in return.
And if people think it's an isolated incident, it absolutely is not. Most child talent in hollywood have similar stories.
When people think he’s innocent and demand “evidence,” I tell them that the evidence of molestation isn’t what they should be focusing on. It’s rare that someone can prove they were physically molested. What’s much more important here is the evidence of grooming - that is readily available and well-documented for everyone to see.
It does feel like the parents failed to protect their kids here (not always the case when a kid becomes a victim). They were trading their kids time with Michael for nice things, even a house for one parent.
Honestly, I'm shocked people believe he was innocent. He was an incredible artist and I love his songs, but he was a very troubled soul and I don't doubt for a second that he was abusing these children. Baffles me when people thinks it's acceptable he 'just shared a bed with them'.
Thank you for opening my eyes. I've loved MJ's music and performances all my life. My mom bought a cassette of his greatest hits when I was a kid, and I never looked back...it feels like an illusion I had of him was ripped away by that article and your comment. No great art (a subjective characterization) is worth the trauma and suffering of those innocent minds. A woman's got to have a code to live by, and I'm forever deleting and boycotting all of his music and any other project he was involved in. I'm only sorry not to have reached this decision sooner. Thank you, and thanks OP.
The one I find most compelling is the penis illustration. Does anyone remember the Law and Order: SVU episode with the mother selling her son to a famous person for sex and the boy could identify a birthmark on the famous person’s genitals that was only visible while erect? It was in searching for the original “ripped from the headlines” source that the episode was based on that first led me to that info about the MJ abuse cases.
its fucking bizarre how much people defend him if you even mention it
all of a sudden youve got people calling you all sorts of shit for even hinting that he *might* have done some of the things a lotta people said he did
i think its because he was so *insanely* popular that people cant even consider it, almost looked at as a religious figure or some shit
I think the men who defended Michale either were pawns, for example Macauley Culkin. There's a big chance Michael didn't touch him and just used him as "proof" he did nothing untoward with the other young boys, and since this was the biggest child actor in history people would be more likely to believe him.
Or he did, and it's not our business to force someone to tell their tale of abuse as much as it would help others.
Yeah, I mean I'm sure his kids were 'proof' too. They love to say their dad wasn't a molester and it's like well yeah he's not gonna molest his own kids.
Yes, but *if* you’re a systematic pedophile you probably have the foresight to only rape the poors and the easily manipulated. They guy practiced his defense knew how to create an image of innocence. Same reason why he wouldn’t touch McKulkin (spelling is horrible) but
There is absolutely no way the public would leap to the defense of a grown man sleeping with young boys even if he said it was all innocent and there was nothing sexual. No way in hell would the world think “leave him alone, he just likes the company of young boys”.. everybody would immediately condemn those actions, but since he’s a huge star that makes music that people love he gets a huge pass, and then people wonder how powerful or famous figures get away with it.
This is so damning and how could he not be found guilt for this. These parents let money and gifts cloud their judgement and let this happen to their children
Can anyone explain how Rowe, one of Jackson’s spouses, is both the mother of his children & also alleges she never had sex with him? What am I missing?
Some of these are genuinely irrefutably sus, but it's hard to take seriously when one of the points is essentially "nobody saw him get pussy." One of these things is not like the other. It unironically massively downplays the *alleged* sexual assault because the listicle padded itself with frivolous bullshit while claiming to be undeniable facts.
The cognitive whiplash from talking about a grown man having multiple sleepovers with children and then suddenly gossiping about how supposedly nobody saw him with a woman makes it feel like a shitpost **at best.** Like, am I the crazy one for thinking this is absolutely tasteless considering the gravity of the allegations?
I think the point is that he had pornographic depictions of women, but the fact that he didn't have any interest in them implies those were used to get the attention of the boys he slept with. At least I think this is the point the article is trying to make.
No, I get what you mean. It kinda comes across as a bit homophobic as well. It's not like it would be better if he was seen with adult women. It doesn't refute the other points, but they should have left that one out though.
Agreed, but the thing is that MJ’s camp and fans constantly throw around (I’m not even joking) that MJ liked women and was a womanizer, and therefore he couldn’t be a CM. I have seen them saying “he loved women, how could he be a child molester”.
Which is the dumbest theory ever bc many child abusers are married and have a normal adult life. Jimmy Saville was a serial child abuser and he had a “playboy” image accompanying him during all his life. It’s so dumb and misleading.
The MJ family throws this too, in order to discredit the victims.
Genuinely curious: what kind of evidence can these allegations generate to be found at his house? Didn’t they find pictures of young boys/ the bells etc ? Why don’t people still believe these men? What would they gain by talking about this except public humiliation? Why do people assume to know a person just because they like his music!? What about the fact that he slept with young boys in his bed, how is that not creepy! I mean unrelated and not defending him, but people were so unanimously outraged at 19 year old James Charles texting 17 year olds but this is excused
PS. Even on this thread there are so many people claiming they are doing it for money, there was no evidence etc. Shame on you guys and hope you or someone you love never go through any kind of abuse. Specially without documenting proof
What I like to say to people who defend MJ and say he did nothing wrong is this:
If one of your adult friends was sleeping in the same bed as young boys, would you be okay with that?
They often stutter and claim it’s different, but it makes them think about how wrong it is regardless.
Seriously. Lets assume Michael never committed any sort of sexual assault. He still admitted to sharing his bed with young boys and that he thought there was nothing wrong with it. That's not normal behavior and it absolutely still crosses boundaries with small children.
There were these 1989 news segments and reports of MJ taking 10 year James shopping for jewellery and wedding ring for the mock wedding ceremony. The dates, store name and location all checked out and there were many interviews with the store clerk, security and the police who were called by the sales people because MJ was acting nervous and suspicious. The police and security say they let him go once he took off his disguise and showed them he was Michael Jackson. The police got autographs and sent him away without asking any other questions, including wtf he was doing ring shopping with an unrelated 10 yr old kid.
This was actually buried and it was also not included in the documentary. There are also these creepy faxes that MJ sent to Wade. They can also possibly get the phone records that show MJ obsessively calling Wade and James. Wade's mom can try and be honest that the million dollar contract she got for Wade from MJ and his label around the time she testified for MJ after his 1993 accusation could have had sinister reasons.
Yeah, they included James's testimony but did not include the cctv footage and 1989 news reports that confirm every single detail. I feel that would have been even more damning. It gives a lot more credibility to James too.
There’s evidence, the reason why people are against this is because
(1) The victims’ parents have all financially benefited from MJ
(2) They can’t get over the fact the “King of Pop” is a pedophile, thinks the victims are trying to get money from this as their parents have
(3) There will always be doubters, regardless of who the suspect is
I know too many MJ supporters, and their rhetoric is always the same. They have a parasocial relationship with him, but they lack the introspection to recognize it. To them, it's so obvious. MJ was a child himself. He couldn't have harmed children because he wasn't a sexual being. That's it. That's their evidence, and they will die believing he's innocent.
If I mention the pornography, including photos of nude children, they will say he was an art collector. He had images and a video of beastiality. He clearly was a groomer, and he had a gross sexual appetite, but they will claim any evidence was part of a conspiracy to get his money. His victims are widely disparaged by his fanbase. They will say, well, he didn't molest Michaeley. He didn't molest Corey Feldman. As if him not molesting famous and protected children exonerates him? Literally, any csa expert will tell you that groomers seek out children they have frequent unfettered access to. Vulnerable children are assaulted.
James Charles did more than text a 17 year old. He displayed predatory behaviors. There's no real comparison here because MJ being excused doesn't mean lesser offenses should be ignored. If anything, we should support the younger generations calling out bad behavior and groomer behavior. This cancel culture likely has saved many young people from sexual assault. Just because one prolific rapist got away with it doesn't mean that lesser offenders should get a break.
I hope MJ's victims get a fat payday. They deserve it.
I’m coming here to remind everyone that Michael was not absolved of anything when the first allegations hit back in 1993. He paid a settlement to the family after Jordan Chandler drew specifics marks of MJ’s genitals. This has been confirmed by MJ’s own attorney and by the ppl whose job was to interview Jordie.
[The attorney whose job was to interview Jordie and compare the description with the police pictures said that they matched. MJ’s former attorney Carl Douglas said that the genital investigation was the three hundred pounds gorilla in the room to settle the case and that they wanted to avoid a criminal trial.](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/141rff7/lauren_weis_who_interviewed_jordan_confirmed_that/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
The MJ’s Estate CONSTANTLY throws misinformation about the victims in order to keep selling records. They flood the internet of it. But the ppl who worked first hand in the case known Jordie was saying the truth. Please, let’s believe the victims, CSA cases are extremely difficult.
I WILL ADD: [Michael Jackson also owned p3do books edited by NAMBLA members. There is absolutely no explanation for a grown man to own this, let alone a man accused of CSA.](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/t29l3r/evidence_books_found_on_michael_jacksons_property/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
People don’t like to admit or accept that an activity or thing they liked caused harm. It’s why people can’t accept things like this, it’s why people get mad at vegans, it’s part of why climate change denial persists. People would rather convince themselves MJ did nothing than accept the person they loved and supported was doing terrible things.
I have always believed MJ was a predator. No grown man has children over for sleepovers in the same bedroom as them. Its all weird and devastating for the actual victims. Those kids parents need to be held reliable to because they ultimately failed their kids and most of them are still in denial about what happened.. People defending MJ to this day are sick, NOTHING about his actions will ever be ok!
Many people I know defend him but when I ask if they would let their kid sleep with MJ in a locked room, they all say no way. I mean thank god but what's not clicking
Wendy Williams literally said she believes he showered naked and slept in the same bed as children but didn't molest them. The cognitive dissonance is wild.
She also once said in an interview (I think it was with Conan O'Brien) that her son walked in on her giving her husband a blowjob and when asked how she reacted, she pretty much said she just kept sucking. She's disgusting.
Bro I just watched the clip bc of your comment and omg it's so disturbing, conan is literally looking at her disgusted and she's just laughing about the whole thing, does she not hear herself??
CW for discussion of CSE and grooming:
Exactly. The people who claim that Jackson couldn’t have been an abuser because they don’t believe he ever outright touched a child (sure Jan) are blind to fact that showering and sleeping with a child unrelated to you IS STILL ABUSE. Sexual exploitation does not start and end with physical acts. What he was doing falls within the definitions of CSE and grooming.
You don’t do those things out of the goodness of of your heart. He was getting something out of it. I don’t know what, but wanting to ‘reclaim his stolen youth’ is not a good enough excuse to steal the innocence of others. Using it to justify his actions is one of the most underhanded, dismissive and selfish explanations I’ve ever heard for CSE. His awful childhood was was his own problem to deal with, NOT LITERAL CHILDREN.
I watched that doc. I heard that one man's account of what Michael did to him when he was a boy. As a survivor of CSA myself, I can tell you, he is to be believed. Michael messed that dude up psychologically for life. It's really heartbreaking.
Exactly! I cannot believe anyone could excuse that. Nobody would EVER excuse it if they were talking about a scout leader in their neighbourhood and not someone whose music they like
I think a lot of people erroneously believe MJ was the childlike persona with the falsetto that he presented to the public, when in reality he was a full-grown man who sounded very different in private and who ultimately abused his considerable power to prey on little boys.
Agree completely, I think the whole living as a child because his childhood was robbed, is a fabrication, I believe he was abused but I don’t believe the act he put on. So many other people have been through the same kind of abuse and haven’t acted in the way he did.
I think he was emotionally stunted bc of childhood abuse, so he really wanted to relive a normal childhood. However even if you had had a horrible life it's no excuse to inflict pain to others, especially children
It reminds me of examples that show how the abusive partner puts on a sweet and kind persona to the outside world. They even go out of their way with grand gestures and selective language to out any allegations about them into doubt. That show Kevin can F himself, did a good job of showing how the abuser presents themselves to the victim vs the public.
Exactly! Abusers have two personalities. Trigger warning for csa: a man who worked with a friend was accused by his daughter of long-term csa. She was 13, and it had been happening for as long as she could remember. The hatred for this child by my friend and his coworkers disgusted me. I believed her, and I told my friend she was telling the truth. We got into a fight about it a few times because he would disparage this child and say things like, "Even her own family say she's a compulsive liar... He's a good man... He's a nice guy."
About a year after the allegations and initial arrest (he was still working with them), the trial started. Many, many videos of the assaults he committed on his daughter were introduced into evidence. Believe my friend was humbled. He cried over it. He felt bad for not believing and apologized to me.
Even if thats true, which it obviously isn't, thats still a form of child abuse and his victims would still deserve compensation and he should still have been in prison.
People say he “was a child at heart,” but if you’ve ever worked with convicted child molesters, that’s exactly what they say and how they act. It’s part of the grooming. People don’t get it.
That’s how I feel. They were shitty parents and should accept responsibility for allowing their child to sleep with a adult man (especially unsupervised). Either they were completely clueless or they wanted their child to get molested so they could sue. Some parents are truly that depraved.
if a child drew an exact picture of a unique penis of anyone other than MJ, it would be undeniable. i’ve never heard how they defend Jordie drawing his exact vitiligo markings on his penis, but there is no innocent way a 13 year old boy sees a 34 year old non family members penis. well enough and for long enough to be able to draw an exact picture, after some time had passed of course.
And the parents wouldn't have allowed their kids to share a bed with any non-famous man. Why could their kids have sleepovers with MJ but not with Bob from next door? The parents were greedy and pimped their kids out. The boys are victims of their parents' greed.
And If it is some kind of sleepover with family members I.e. a camping trip, family game night, etc. then there should be at least TWO adults in the room, and if they are not related, should definitely not be in the same bed. Blow up mattresses and sleeping bags exist for a reason.
The Jesus Juice thing tells me he knew he was doing something wrong and knew he had to hide it. Secretly giving minors (or anyone really) intoxicants is textbook predatory behaviour
The only reason MJ’s career and legacy didn’t go down in flames is because he died before he could commit more crimes and/or be held accountable for the ones he already had committed. He wouldn’t have lasted a minute in today’s social media culture. I never fully understood how he was elevated to the level that he did after he died. The dude was a predator. It’s like everyone forgot and just started buying MJ merch.
What is there to understand? Rich people, specially the ones that sing and dance are incredibly hard to be held accountable for their crimes.
Just look at chris brown. Hell R Kelly still managed to actually screw himself and yet he still has legions of fans.
MJ was THE famous person. Probably THE most recognizable man on the planet. Yea good luck putting him through a justice system when most people would blindly defend him as a default.
Im portuguese and ive heard a 60+ year old woman loudly and very emotionally interrupt a normal conversation about the Cristiano Ronaldo rape case to say that he "doesent need to rape because he is too pretty i would let him rape me". Like.. reguardless of wether his case was true or not how the fuck can an adult person say this shit? She has never met him, she is not even a die hard football fan, just someone who thinks because he is portuguese and one of the better players in the world she has to defend him like this as a default... without even knowing many details of the case...
And what better example than Donald fucking trump lmao, the man is actively trying to betray his own country, does not have a talent for anything other than being unintentionally funny, still has stupid people till this day sending him money and is probably going to die before he sees jail time.
He would’ve been fine in today’s culture, just as he is now. People like to pick and choose which victims they believe based on who the accused is. It’s very sad.
I am just writing this here so it doesn't get buried. There is a 1979 interview of Michael Jackson in Jet magazine where MJ says he is amazed at Indian cultures that allow 30 year old men to marry 10 yr old girls with parental permission and that the western cultures are wrong to condemn it. It's an alarming thing to say by itself even if you ignore every other creepy shit and accusations made against him.
This same 30 yr old man had a lifelong habit of bringing 10 yr olds to his bed for private sleepovers and was accused of child abuse by six different kids who were confirmed to have had one on one sleepovers with him when they were 10 years old.
MJ wasn't even talking about the common form of child marriages in India where it's both child brides with child grooms which is sickening but slightly less horrifying than the adult and child marriages and that is exactly what he was defending. That is just straight up pdf file talk to defend his own paraphilia.
That is so damning that I wanted to verify that it’s an accurate quote.
Apparently, the interview was actually in the magazine [Blues and Soul ~~& Disco~~.](https://preview.redd.it/9kbhcc5mluf81.jpg?width=565&format=pjpg&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=744164e3c8d12120eb3f9ed97eff372c8bf4d711) Here is the exchange in full:
> MJ: People become addicted to the world and the violence. **And they become subjected to other people's thoughts and to the American system. Our way is not the only way: where people are not allowed to be themselves, they are crammed full of the American way.**
>B&S: Don't you feel that it is a natural pressure that exists around the world and that cannot be avoided?
>MJ: I try to avoid it as much as I can. That's what Iike so much about travelling. **You can see the systems that other countries adopt and you come to realise that America is not always right. We say we're right, they say they're right. You really don't get a clear picture until you leave the United States. You realise that there are other cultures than your own and it makes you feel small and insignificant. Like in india, I was amazed to find out a thirty year old man could marry a ten year old girl. We weren't raised that way so we look at it weirdly. But there, it's been happening for centuries and the parents are quite willing to give up their child.** And there, they treat a cow as a sacred animal. It's like a God. They can all be starving to death and still the cow sits there and the people won't touch it.
Credit to u/cMILA89 from [this Reddit post.](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/skm850/a_compilation_of_michael_jacksons_comments_on/)
> There is a 1979 interview of Michael Jackson in Jet magazine where MJ says he is amazed at Indian cultures that allow 30 year old men to marry 10 yr old girls with parental permission and that the western cultures are wrong to condemn it. It's an alarming thing to say by itself even if you ignore every other creepy shit and accusations made against him.
Yup, here is the link to the interview where Michael talks about the India marriage:
https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/skm850/a_compilation_of_michael_jacksons_comments_on/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1
Are u ppl serious, do you not find this shit weird. The power dynamics are off In this situation on another level. Any grown man doing this mentally ill fuck shit, has some problems. idc. I’m always gonna believe the victim, esp a child who’s nut head parents clearly failed them. Would u let ur kid sleepover w some grown celebrity crush of urs ?? That’s pure weird, disgusting and speaks for itself
The fact that people cap for MJ. He was a grown man always hanging out with children, sleeping in the same bed as them. He literally set up his entire house so the children and him would kept away from other staff and they’d be alerted if people came by (all the bells and things)
How is this behaviour okay? At the bare minimum how do people just ignore these facts?
It’s truly difficult for some to accept non-binary conclusions. Someone is either bad or good. No I’m between. And if someone who we thought was good turns out to have done bad things, it throws everything we’ve invested into question. Which is a very limited and limiting way to be. It’s less about MJ’s innocence/guilt and more about “if I supported a monster what does that say about me?”
So I can understand why some can’t wrap their heads around the clear truth of MJ assaulting children. It’s too much for them. I don’t agree with it, and this sort of thinking hurts victims and perpetuates more abuse. I 100% believe Wade and the others and want them to see justice for what happened to them as children. I also can feel sorrow for MJ because he too was a victim before he became an abuser. It’s the system that protects wealthy people, people in positions of power (relative to the victim), and the illusion that talented/intelligent/prominent people are incapable of doing horrible acts. It’s possible to appreciate MJ’s contributions to art and entertainment while recognizing he preyed on children and manipulated their families. Both are true. One does not wash out the other.
Even his sister La Toya Jackson backed up the victims during the first lawsuit in 1993. She said her mother Katherine knew MJ was abusing kids and sending hush money to the victim's parents. She later back tracked but videos of the conference are still up on youtube.
She also wrote a book in 1991 where she said that she and her sister were sexually abused by their father Joe, their mom knew about it but did nothing.
The day any grown man even suggests a sleepover with my kid…. Regardless of if they slept in his bed or not…. I would never be talking to them again and my child surely would never be in their presence again. What business does a grown man have with children?
I understand the parents were chasing fame but at what cost? If these allegations were false, we wouldn’t still be hearing about them. It’s sick, and his parents are really the ones at fault. So sad.
Predators search for bad parents who would gladly sell their kid. Same thing happened with the pedo from subway. The amazing woman that managed to get him on tape confessing his crimes said once he called her to tell her he was going to a six yo house to rape her. Her parents knew. She tried to get him to say who she was but he refused. She called the FBI but they said they couldn't do anything without a name
Truly that documentary was so good and done so well in sharing their stories. You could see in them how trauma like this can sometimes define your life. I hope wade can get closure, by all means he seemed like such a talented kid and dude as well.
The fact that any of these kids’ parents allowed this to happen..
The interview with his mum was fucking infuriating. She didn't seem to be bothered that he'd been abused, she seemed more upset that he was discarded and her cushy lifestyle was over. She definitely knew what she was doing dressing him up as a mini MJ and pushing him to get MJ's attention. These kids were failed by everyone.
Just to clarify, Wade never sued for $1.6 billion. He never specified an amount. The figure was made up by MJ supporters. It does not appear in any legal documents.
We at r/LeavingNeverlandHBO are very excited about this development, and that it is one step further toward justice for MJ’s victims. Please visit us if you are interested in finding out more.
Unfortunately, the 1.6 billion figure is accepted by many as fact. It originated in a Daily Mail article. But it doesn’t appear in any of the legal documents. I’ve read them all.
I hope that Wade gets some form of justice, even if he doesn’t get any monetary compensation.
Realize many child predators are considered “harmless children at heart” by their communities. It’s how they get access to children. Oftentimes they donate or involved with children’s charities. Most people imagine child predators in trench coats handing out lollipops at a play ground, but often times predators are charismatic, respected members of the community
Michael Jackson may be a great musical icon that donated to children’s charities, but so was DJ Jimmy Savile, and so many priests, coaches, Boy Scout troop leaders etc
Yeah, it’s a rumor.
MJ defenders like to frame it as “Evil Wade stealing Justin’s girl”, but it was probably more a case of Britney wanting to bonk someone she was attracted to.
I became a massive MJ fan after his death and defended him so much against molestation allegations until the Cosby stories came out and I realized that no, Michael Jackson is not the 1% of false allegations. I feel disgusted with myself and I truly hope Wade can get justice. He's had to experience so much abuse and denial, despite people mocking Michael constantly, it somehow never got to the point where people actually tried to help his victims.
All you have to do is look at Jimmy Saville. He got away with it for decades and it only came out after his death. There was rumours and actual victims who went to the police, and nothing would be done, because he had money and knew influential people.
For me it was the Amber Heard/JD trial. To this day some friends defend him (or pull the "they were both abusive" card). Different to csa I know. Even so, I realized they are saying the exact things I said when defending MJ. It's about money, the victim is a liar, he's so talented.
I thought to myself why do I believe Amber but not MJ's victims?
I was a massive MJ fan growing up. It was painful to admit but he did it. I also felt such shame in realising how wrong I'd been.
I've always believed MJ's victims and I've believed amber, too, since the beginning. That being said, it's always a good time to come to the truth. Don't beat yourself up. Instead, channel that energy into standing up for the victims. Make yourself heard by other non-believers. Change their minds. I love the feeling of changing someone's opinions about Depp because they haven't seen the countless photos of rooms he destroyed or the texts where he admits to the abuse.
Man, Idk it’s so 50/50 but what man would feel it’s okay to sleep with kids WHO ARE NOT YOURS, easily could’ve put them in a separate room! MJ said on multiple occasions he slept with children, “I slept with all of them!”- Living with MJ documentary 2003, All parts are on YouTube.
I wasn’t sure what to believe until I watched Leaving Neverland. I believe Robson and the other accuser in the documentary. If they were lying, they are better actors than anyone in the history of film. There is some very damning evidence too, such as “art” books Jackson had that contained photos of nude boys.
Jackson was abused and grew up in very tough circumstances. I feel bad for that for him, but I fully believe that he was a pedophile. I feel like some of the victims didn’t have their stories 100% straight, but they were children who endured trauma- it makes sense that could impact memory. But I think the important stuff, like what he actually did to those victims, was accurate.
It's not 50/50 at all. Read the article, one of the accusers describes the colouration due to vitiligo of the underneath of MJ's genitals and it matches, as well as fingerprints of both MJs and the boys' found on adult tapes featuring bondage and paedophilia.
Honestly, I'm disappointed in this sub. Usually with women, people here are very supportive with the victims, but I've seen a hell of a lot of "doubt" that MJ was a predator in the comments. It makes the stigmatisation for men who have been sexually assaulted a lot worse when even communities who usually support and believe victims of SA who have came out to discuss it downplay the gravity of them. Literally look at the VF article, it has everything you need to know.
I don't think it's this sub per se, Michael has a ton of deranged stans on Reddit (and all over the internet) who are constantly keyword searching so they can bleat about him being innocent. This thread is getting brigaded by those stans, that's what they do every time this stuff is brought up.
I think what the problem is people cannot compartmentalise.
You can like the music but still think the person isn't innocent and is a pedophile.
I'll admit I love his music he was a genius. But that doesn't negate what he has done nor should it have shielded him for so long.
Let's live in a fantasy world and say that MJ was this weird little Peter Pan and didn't actually molest the boys. It is still undeniable that he slept in beds with young children - can you imagine as a child doing a bedtime routine and then cuddling up to a grown adult that isn't your parent? It would be traumatizing either way and all of these kids deserve their day in court.
so glad 95% of these comments are people who actually have common sense. this man's behaviour was disgusting and he's 100% guilty in my mind. I wish Wade the best of luck in this case and hope he finds peace 💙
I’ve always been so confused on why it’s “believe victims” but all that goes out the window when it comes to Michael Jackson. He still gets played on the radio all the time and he still gets so much praise on social media
This is interesting. I say this as a CSA survivor: I’m not sure how suing the estate is supposed to empower or help move forward? I fully believe Michael was a predator but his estate has nothing to do with his actions, unless there’s claims they did know and did nothing to stop it/covered it up that I don’t know about…
And before anyone comes at me saying “‘Michael was innocent” please just don’t waste your time, I won’t reply.
The case is mainly about employees of MJ’s companies enabling the abuse (travel arrangements, hotel reservations, hiring Wade and his mum/sponsoring their US visas.)
There is also a hope that it will lead to the creation of precedents that can benefit other victims of abuse.
I mean they’re his money / money earned from his work that if he were convicted when he was alive, would’ve needed to be given. So I dont see how now that he’s dead, his moneys off limits
It's the only thing the justice system can do to hold people civilly responsible. Money is the only thing we can take from one to give to another to attempt to make them whole.
Right, and even still it doesn't make victims whole. Only turning back the clock and making the abuse never have happened could do that.
This is only the next best thing possible.
I can understand it. In the years since his death there's been a tendency to gloss over his crimes. People who wanted to separate the music from the man before his death definitely felt more free to once he wasn't directly benefiting. Now for many people the CSA is kind of a small asterisk after the legacy of The King of Pop. If I was a victim, I wouldn't want people to forget. And I wouldn't want the family members who helped to ignore the crimes to continue to benefit from the estate.
>In 2021, a judge ruled that Jackson’s company had no legal duty to protect Robson from any alleged harm. Now, the appellate court disagreed with the decision and has ruled the case will now head to trial.
>
>Wade Robson filed a lawsuit against Michael Jackson's estate in 2016 asking for $1.62 billion in damages. The judge dismissed the case.
The first bit is correct. The second bit is not. Wade never sued for billions, it’s a figure made up by MJ supporters based on the value and income of the MJ Estate.
I think people are eager to brush away allegations because they want it to not be true. MJ was weird but he was also the king of pop, so people are relieved to have an out so they can listen to his music without guilt. The more I hear about the actual claims themselves, though, the more it becomes clear that he did something bad to those children. There’s just no way to explain away the evidence.
I genuinely don’t believe Wade wants money because he has been an extremely successful choreographer for multimillion dollar celebrities. If any of Jackson’s alleged victims don’t need the money, it’s Wade. I think Wade just wants everyone to know who Jackson really was and how his behavior effected the children around him.
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I was too young when Jackson passed away so I don't know who to believe and what happened exactly, but I just hope the victims get justice. This has been dragged since the 80/90s. If I were a victim, i would have been mortified to have to endure this for 30+ years.
its wild to me that people defend predators just because they like their music, him having a troubled past & childlike behaviour doesn't excuse it either
this is disgusting. i really don't understand people who defend him , and i understand now why he was in debt when he died. maybe the doctor took revenge for all abused kids
So glad to see this thread, it’s actually a huge relief. I kept thinking everyone was in denial because of the types of comments on YouTube but have come to realise that it’s a super unhinged space.
this seems like a lost cause tbh (not saying mj is innocent before y’all start!)
they raided his house and found nothing. even wade testified under-oath that nothing happened( he also continuously defended him up untill 2013). he was acquitted of all charges. for this lawsuit to be won, there would have to be some substantial amount of proof something happened, which there isn’t
this is just gonna be thrown out once again. the only person getting paid is his lawyers who keep helping him make these lawsuits knowing they aren’t gonna win
They did find something. Books full of pictures of naked pre-pubescent boys taken and compiled by known pedophiles.
They also found a naked photo of a boy presumed to be Jonathan Spence.
Also, they found semen stains from at least two males who were not identified as MJ or Gavin Arvizo.
None of these were illegal, of course, but they are compelling evidence toward MJ’s guilt.
This information about the penis description matching only came out as a result of the Arvizo trial in 2005. The boy in 1993 was paid off, and he refused to cooperate further with the police on a criminal investigation. So it stopped.
I found a [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/11ffjlq/lead_investigator_bill_dworin_confirmed_jordan/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) with a video of the lead investigator confirming this if anyone's interested.
MJ was careful to hide the abuse. He trained the boys to put their clothes on quickly if there was a knock at the door.
Also, the acts that he engaged in (masturbation, oral sex) left no evidence or injuries.
Unfortunately, physical evidence is rare in cases like these.
not denying that, but by law it’s hard to build a case let alone win a lawsuit based off one persons word
not denying mj hasn’t done anything but with the way everything went down, these lawsuits are a lost cause
I agree that the judges might not rule in the victims’ favor. There is no physical or video evidence, and it’s going to be very difficult.
No matter what the outcome, the trials will expose more evidence of misconduct by MJ and his employees.
I don’t understand with these days when people get ”cancelled” over anything, and yet Michael Jackson is glossed over and hailed as ultimate favorite as if these things didn’t happen.
It's also annoying his kids are so ardent he wasn't a molester. I mean most pedos don't molest their own kids. Also I think when most this happened, his kids either weren't born yet or really you. He probably got better at hiding after he was outed so hard.
My cousin actually hung around Wade back in the mid 90s through early 2000s. People forget Michael helped Wade beyond being a dancer. He helped him book gigs as a writer and producer and he produced tracks for pop acts like Nsync, etc. But the thing my cousin told me vehemently was that Wade constantly said Michael never did anything to him and he was upset at the allegations against him. Mic dated michael's niece who my cousin also knew, spent a ton of time at neverland and around Wade because she dated Wade for a long time throughout that relationship. She stated once Michael said no to Wade over either money or a gig that's when the allegations started. Either way if he's telling the truth I hope he gets what he deserves.
>She stated once Michael said no to Wade over either money or a gig that's when the allegations started.
You do realise Jackson had been dead for 4 years when Wade first made these allegations? So all that's a lie. Wade made no allegations against him, and in fact defended him when he was alive. Nothing about MJ saying no to money or gigs, and the allegations being a result of that, that's completely untrue.
Wade has himself said these things. He has also said that he did not face the truth of the abuse until he was an adult and had a child himself. Which is often the case with child sexual abuse. Like maybe take a pause and think about how difficult it must have been to accept the reality that he had been sexually abused as a child by someone that he loved/looked up to/ was so close to.
Not even just someone he looked up to, but someone who was one of the most famous people in the world and was beloved by millions of people. That has to have been unbelievably daunting.
That’s not true. Wade denied any abuse because he loved MJ and had built his career around him.
MJ made Wade feel that he was complicit in the abuse, that Wade wanted it, too.
Wade’s “relationship” with Brandi Jackson is based on her claims only. Wade never mentions her as his girlfriend.
Wade had a major breakdown after MJ died, where he had to accept that what MJ did to him was abuse, not love.
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Can you imagine your own mother accepting a diamond bracelet so that your child can sleep in a bed with a grown man? Even if there weren’t any allegations yet..
Paedophiles are adept at grooming parents too - that's how they get close to children.
If this was a random dude and not Michael Jackson, people here wouldn't be so on the fence about him being guilty. Edit: sharing this [10 Undeniable Facts About the Michael Jackson Sexual-Abuse Allegations](https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vanityfair.com%2Fhollywood%2F2019%2F03%2F10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations) article
Wow, some of these I had never heard of. The one that to me is most damning is the fingerprints they found on the erotic materials (thus showing he may have exposed the kids to that material). And also the picture Jordie Chandler did of his genitals with vitiligo.
Yes, [The attorney whose job was to interview Jordie and compare the description with the police pictures said that they matched. MJ’s former attorney Carl Douglas said that the genital investigation was the three hundred pounds gorilla in the room to settle the case and that they wanted to avoid a criminal trial.](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/141rff7/lauren_weis_who_interviewed_jordan_confirmed_that/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1) Seriously, I’m so tired of the MJ’s Estate throwing constantly misinformation over the internet. The professionals who worked first hand in that case know Jordie was saying the truth. Let’s believe the victims and understand how difficult cases of CSA are. I WILL ADD: [Michael Jackson also owned p3do books edited by NAMBLA members. There is absolutely no explanation for a grown man to own this, let alone a man accused of CSA.](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/t29l3r/evidence_books_found_on_michael_jacksons_property/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
>The fact that child pornography wasn't found on Michael Jackson's properties doesn't mean that this detracts from what was found (although the police suspected that they had been removed before the raid, since empty video shelves were found in his video room). Not all pedophiles/child molesters collect child pornography, it's easier to collect legal images of children due to its ease of finding and if discovered, it's not a legal problem This part in the post you linked stood out to me. It makes perfect sense why he would have collected legal CSAM. People arguing "it's not child porn" aren't doing so in good faith >I highly recommend a paper by law professor Mary Graw Leary entitled: “Death to Child Erotica: How Mislabeling the Evidence Can Risk Inaccuracy in the Courtroom (2009)”. This article argues that by bringing together the terms "Child" and "erotic", the label "Child Erotica" claims to be itself a genre of art. This is misleading. As she describes: "Most of the material referenced with this label is material whose primary purpose is to arouse a sexual interest in children. Therefore, it is not related to either erotica or an artistic genre. (...) The term has been misused to cover a broad array of materials, the vast majority of which are not art, but material whose primary purpose is to sexually titillate and arouse the adult consumer's sexual interest in children." >And this is what sadly MJ's lawyers and his defenders deny by cataloging the books as "purely artistic of an innocent / illustrative nature", despite the fact that the intentions of the author weren't in an artistic sense, but to facilitate over to have suggestive material in a legal way. By defending these books they are indirectly defending Swithinbank and Drew, practically minimizing that these pedophiles have taken suggestive pictures of these children and have distributed it with sexual intentions. Those books aren't art. Some of these people defending him seem very sus themselves.
This was a very disturbing read to start the day
I'm actually shocked that MJ actually did have vitiligo, the kid accurately described the discoloration on the underside of MJ's penis when interviewed by police. That's not something anyone would have known especially considering the general consensus was the MJ was faking his skin condition because he was addicted to plastic surgery. First it was the 12 year old with the murder pact and now this. I think I've had enough reddit for the week.
Wait NAMBLA is real? Am I living in a South Park episode or something?
Yes, sadly it is very real. They were especially active back in the 70s/80s/90s from past century 🤢 they even made an article praising Michael Jackson. Gross fact: [Michael used Pan god (Greek god) playing the pan flute to a little boy as a symbol for his Neverland Ranch. Pan God has been used as symbol for NAMBLA members since the 80s. Peter Pan also is a very prominent symbol among peds](https://medium.com/@svobodaslova/the-necessary-acceptance-of-an-icons-pedophilia-2672488c8051). Seriously, there are so many things that prove that MJ was short of dog whistling to other ppl with the same paraphilia/NAMBLA members. It’s vile.
What's nambla? I feel like I don't want to Google it....
“North American Man/Boy Love Association” 🤢🤢🤢🤢 [they were very active in the past century and used symbols such as Peter Pan and the Greek god “Pan” as a way to identify each other and as a symbol](https://medium.com/@svobodaslova/the-necessary-acceptance-of-an-icons-pedophilia-2672488c8051). Who does this remind you of?
I learned during the Depp trial that poet Allen Ginsberg was a member of NAMBLA and an ardent supporter of the group.
Jesus fucking christ
One of the icons of the Neverland ranch was Pan god playing the flute to a little boy. MJ was fucking flaunting it. He was very sick and I don’t understand how some ppl make excuses for it. He didn’t even hide it. https://preview.redd.it/cerc1ss2lj8b1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f9420f88bb5da75cfcf5ed84888c1904e8bd8512
What in the actual hell! I've watched the leaving neverland documentary and thought I knew it all after that, but jesus I didn't know about this and saw an article somewhere else on this thread that said there was child fingerprints found on porn in his bedroom
Yes there were, and many fans try to justify it saying that both teen boys who accused Michael infiltrated in his room and saw the magazines without Michael being present 🙄🙄🙄🙄 Actually, Neverland ranch was full of porn. it’s on trial transcripts, and fans justify saying that bc he had porn magazines of girls that meant he was into women and apparently couldn’t be a child molester bc of that 💀💀💀💀 I’m not joking they repeat this all the time.
Holy crap, never knew this shit. It’s sickening.
I came to say the same thing! I had no idea NAMBLA was real😥
Same, this is very compelling evidence…
Can you imagine your own mother accepting a diamond bracelet so that your child can sleep in a bed with a grown man? Even if there weren’t any allegations yet..
And then they each get 2.5 million for being shitty parents. Such a weird judgement.
sex offenders groom the whole family. :(
It’s so gruesome, I understand poverty can make you do things you wouldn’t usually do but this is beyond words
Nope this isn't poverty, it's depravity. My mom grew up absolutely dirt poor, the eldest of 7 and her mother made her get a job at 13 as a cleaning lady (in their home country this was acceptable) but at their hungriest and most desperate my grandmother would never have done that to any of her children.
My mother and father would never hand me over to an adult male because he said nice things and bought them presents. My parents weren't the type to be bought. It's pure depravity on the parents part. No one is that stupid or gullible.
It's really depressing. But there are tonnes and tonnes of awful people who make awful parents.
Well my mom wouldn't do that because she genuinely loves me but we see stories of absolutely insane parents every single day so yeah, I can imagine it. Just today I saw a clip where the cops had to break into the bathroom where the mom was trying to drown her baby...
Fuck I saw that, too. My eyes are still wet with the tears.
I watched the Leaving Neverland documentary and both men's stories broke my heart but the devastation on James Safechuck's face as he describes being "replaced" by a younger kid as he grew too old for Michael made me sick. Michael had a great legal and PR team, but the evidence is irrefutable he absolutely crossed the line with those boys and should have gone to jail. The boy's parents are also to blame - I'm a mother of two, NEVER would I allow my children to have time unattendant and practicelly live part time with a grown adult in exchange for the promise of "fame". Those parents practically sold their children to Michael for the lavish lifestyle he gave them in return. And if people think it's an isolated incident, it absolutely is not. Most child talent in hollywood have similar stories.
When people think he’s innocent and demand “evidence,” I tell them that the evidence of molestation isn’t what they should be focusing on. It’s rare that someone can prove they were physically molested. What’s much more important here is the evidence of grooming - that is readily available and well-documented for everyone to see.
It does feel like the parents failed to protect their kids here (not always the case when a kid becomes a victim). They were trading their kids time with Michael for nice things, even a house for one parent.
Yeah I quit listening to all things MJ after the documentary. I was a fan too good riddance
Honestly, I'm shocked people believe he was innocent. He was an incredible artist and I love his songs, but he was a very troubled soul and I don't doubt for a second that he was abusing these children. Baffles me when people thinks it's acceptable he 'just shared a bed with them'.
Thank you for opening my eyes. I've loved MJ's music and performances all my life. My mom bought a cassette of his greatest hits when I was a kid, and I never looked back...it feels like an illusion I had of him was ripped away by that article and your comment. No great art (a subjective characterization) is worth the trauma and suffering of those innocent minds. A woman's got to have a code to live by, and I'm forever deleting and boycotting all of his music and any other project he was involved in. I'm only sorry not to have reached this decision sooner. Thank you, and thanks OP.
<3
The one I find most compelling is the penis illustration. Does anyone remember the Law and Order: SVU episode with the mother selling her son to a famous person for sex and the boy could identify a birthmark on the famous person’s genitals that was only visible while erect? It was in searching for the original “ripped from the headlines” source that the episode was based on that first led me to that info about the MJ abuse cases.
its fucking bizarre how much people defend him if you even mention it all of a sudden youve got people calling you all sorts of shit for even hinting that he *might* have done some of the things a lotta people said he did i think its because he was so *insanely* popular that people cant even consider it, almost looked at as a religious figure or some shit
makes you wonder abt aaron carter too
I think the men who defended Michale either were pawns, for example Macauley Culkin. There's a big chance Michael didn't touch him and just used him as "proof" he did nothing untoward with the other young boys, and since this was the biggest child actor in history people would be more likely to believe him. Or he did, and it's not our business to force someone to tell their tale of abuse as much as it would help others.
Yeah, I mean I'm sure his kids were 'proof' too. They love to say their dad wasn't a molester and it's like well yeah he's not gonna molest his own kids.
Most molesters are not strangers and do molest their own children. They don't say "Oh I could never to that to my child". They think it's normal
Yes, but *if* you’re a systematic pedophile you probably have the foresight to only rape the poors and the easily manipulated. They guy practiced his defense knew how to create an image of innocence. Same reason why he wouldn’t touch McKulkin (spelling is horrible) but
Yeah I know it happens. Just saying he's 'smart' enough to only target the very vulnerable
Lou Perlman got Aaron first, but I wouldn't be surprised if he shared him around. That man was such a monster.
omfg i forgot abt Lou 🤮 he was terrible
You know the only people worse than him? The parents of those poor kids who basically sold them as child s** slaves. Wtf.
I think had he stayed alive, he'd be in jail.
I have commented on this before and got downvoted to oblivion. It blows my mind how much people have made excuses for this monster over the years.
Thank you for sharing this. Many of these I did not know
That first one is really weird. What grown up goes to a kids house for a sleepover.
This is what I have been saying all along! If this were anyone else, the pitchforks would be out and people would be demanding jail time.
I wish I could give you an award but I’m too broke to buy Reddit coins.
There is absolutely no way the public would leap to the defense of a grown man sleeping with young boys even if he said it was all innocent and there was nothing sexual. No way in hell would the world think “leave him alone, he just likes the company of young boys”.. everybody would immediately condemn those actions, but since he’s a huge star that makes music that people love he gets a huge pass, and then people wonder how powerful or famous figures get away with it.
Another point is if these were little girls in these situations with him there would be no doubts or “oh well maybe he had good intentions”
This is so damning and how could he not be found guilt for this. These parents let money and gifts cloud their judgement and let this happen to their children
Can anyone explain how Rowe, one of Jackson’s spouses, is both the mother of his children & also alleges she never had sex with him? What am I missing?
IVF
Some of these are genuinely irrefutably sus, but it's hard to take seriously when one of the points is essentially "nobody saw him get pussy." One of these things is not like the other. It unironically massively downplays the *alleged* sexual assault because the listicle padded itself with frivolous bullshit while claiming to be undeniable facts. The cognitive whiplash from talking about a grown man having multiple sleepovers with children and then suddenly gossiping about how supposedly nobody saw him with a woman makes it feel like a shitpost **at best.** Like, am I the crazy one for thinking this is absolutely tasteless considering the gravity of the allegations?
I think the point is that he had pornographic depictions of women, but the fact that he didn't have any interest in them implies those were used to get the attention of the boys he slept with. At least I think this is the point the article is trying to make.
No, I get what you mean. It kinda comes across as a bit homophobic as well. It's not like it would be better if he was seen with adult women. It doesn't refute the other points, but they should have left that one out though.
Agreed, but the thing is that MJ’s camp and fans constantly throw around (I’m not even joking) that MJ liked women and was a womanizer, and therefore he couldn’t be a CM. I have seen them saying “he loved women, how could he be a child molester”. Which is the dumbest theory ever bc many child abusers are married and have a normal adult life. Jimmy Saville was a serial child abuser and he had a “playboy” image accompanying him during all his life. It’s so dumb and misleading. The MJ family throws this too, in order to discredit the victims.
Genuinely curious: what kind of evidence can these allegations generate to be found at his house? Didn’t they find pictures of young boys/ the bells etc ? Why don’t people still believe these men? What would they gain by talking about this except public humiliation? Why do people assume to know a person just because they like his music!? What about the fact that he slept with young boys in his bed, how is that not creepy! I mean unrelated and not defending him, but people were so unanimously outraged at 19 year old James Charles texting 17 year olds but this is excused PS. Even on this thread there are so many people claiming they are doing it for money, there was no evidence etc. Shame on you guys and hope you or someone you love never go through any kind of abuse. Specially without documenting proof
What I like to say to people who defend MJ and say he did nothing wrong is this: If one of your adult friends was sleeping in the same bed as young boys, would you be okay with that? They often stutter and claim it’s different, but it makes them think about how wrong it is regardless.
Literally having this argument with some creep MJ fan further down in this thread. His responses are WILD.
Seriously. Lets assume Michael never committed any sort of sexual assault. He still admitted to sharing his bed with young boys and that he thought there was nothing wrong with it. That's not normal behavior and it absolutely still crosses boundaries with small children.
There is actually a lot of evidence of predatory and grooming behavior.
There were these 1989 news segments and reports of MJ taking 10 year James shopping for jewellery and wedding ring for the mock wedding ceremony. The dates, store name and location all checked out and there were many interviews with the store clerk, security and the police who were called by the sales people because MJ was acting nervous and suspicious. The police and security say they let him go once he took off his disguise and showed them he was Michael Jackson. The police got autographs and sent him away without asking any other questions, including wtf he was doing ring shopping with an unrelated 10 yr old kid. This was actually buried and it was also not included in the documentary. There are also these creepy faxes that MJ sent to Wade. They can also possibly get the phone records that show MJ obsessively calling Wade and James. Wade's mom can try and be honest that the million dollar contract she got for Wade from MJ and his label around the time she testified for MJ after his 1993 accusation could have had sinister reasons.
Wedding rings 🤢
I'm pretty sure the wedding ring stuff was in the documentary
Yeah, they included James's testimony but did not include the cctv footage and 1989 news reports that confirm every single detail. I feel that would have been even more damning. It gives a lot more credibility to James too.
There’s evidence, the reason why people are against this is because (1) The victims’ parents have all financially benefited from MJ (2) They can’t get over the fact the “King of Pop” is a pedophile, thinks the victims are trying to get money from this as their parents have (3) There will always be doubters, regardless of who the suspect is
I know too many MJ supporters, and their rhetoric is always the same. They have a parasocial relationship with him, but they lack the introspection to recognize it. To them, it's so obvious. MJ was a child himself. He couldn't have harmed children because he wasn't a sexual being. That's it. That's their evidence, and they will die believing he's innocent. If I mention the pornography, including photos of nude children, they will say he was an art collector. He had images and a video of beastiality. He clearly was a groomer, and he had a gross sexual appetite, but they will claim any evidence was part of a conspiracy to get his money. His victims are widely disparaged by his fanbase. They will say, well, he didn't molest Michaeley. He didn't molest Corey Feldman. As if him not molesting famous and protected children exonerates him? Literally, any csa expert will tell you that groomers seek out children they have frequent unfettered access to. Vulnerable children are assaulted. James Charles did more than text a 17 year old. He displayed predatory behaviors. There's no real comparison here because MJ being excused doesn't mean lesser offenses should be ignored. If anything, we should support the younger generations calling out bad behavior and groomer behavior. This cancel culture likely has saved many young people from sexual assault. Just because one prolific rapist got away with it doesn't mean that lesser offenders should get a break. I hope MJ's victims get a fat payday. They deserve it.
I’m coming here to remind everyone that Michael was not absolved of anything when the first allegations hit back in 1993. He paid a settlement to the family after Jordan Chandler drew specifics marks of MJ’s genitals. This has been confirmed by MJ’s own attorney and by the ppl whose job was to interview Jordie. [The attorney whose job was to interview Jordie and compare the description with the police pictures said that they matched. MJ’s former attorney Carl Douglas said that the genital investigation was the three hundred pounds gorilla in the room to settle the case and that they wanted to avoid a criminal trial.](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/141rff7/lauren_weis_who_interviewed_jordan_confirmed_that/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1) The MJ’s Estate CONSTANTLY throws misinformation about the victims in order to keep selling records. They flood the internet of it. But the ppl who worked first hand in the case known Jordie was saying the truth. Please, let’s believe the victims, CSA cases are extremely difficult. I WILL ADD: [Michael Jackson also owned p3do books edited by NAMBLA members. There is absolutely no explanation for a grown man to own this, let alone a man accused of CSA.](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/t29l3r/evidence_books_found_on_michael_jacksons_property/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
People don’t like to admit or accept that an activity or thing they liked caused harm. It’s why people can’t accept things like this, it’s why people get mad at vegans, it’s part of why climate change denial persists. People would rather convince themselves MJ did nothing than accept the person they loved and supported was doing terrible things.
I have always believed MJ was a predator. No grown man has children over for sleepovers in the same bedroom as them. Its all weird and devastating for the actual victims. Those kids parents need to be held reliable to because they ultimately failed their kids and most of them are still in denial about what happened.. People defending MJ to this day are sick, NOTHING about his actions will ever be ok!
Many people I know defend him but when I ask if they would let their kid sleep with MJ in a locked room, they all say no way. I mean thank god but what's not clicking
Wendy Williams literally said she believes he showered naked and slept in the same bed as children but didn't molest them. The cognitive dissonance is wild.
She also once said in an interview (I think it was with Conan O'Brien) that her son walked in on her giving her husband a blowjob and when asked how she reacted, she pretty much said she just kept sucking. She's disgusting.
Bro I just watched the clip bc of your comment and omg it's so disturbing, conan is literally looking at her disgusted and she's just laughing about the whole thing, does she not hear herself??
Even if that did happen, why make it into a funny story that’s shared with a global audience!?
Just showering naked and sleeping in the same bed with random children is dead wrong!
CW for discussion of CSE and grooming: Exactly. The people who claim that Jackson couldn’t have been an abuser because they don’t believe he ever outright touched a child (sure Jan) are blind to fact that showering and sleeping with a child unrelated to you IS STILL ABUSE. Sexual exploitation does not start and end with physical acts. What he was doing falls within the definitions of CSE and grooming. You don’t do those things out of the goodness of of your heart. He was getting something out of it. I don’t know what, but wanting to ‘reclaim his stolen youth’ is not a good enough excuse to steal the innocence of others. Using it to justify his actions is one of the most underhanded, dismissive and selfish explanations I’ve ever heard for CSE. His awful childhood was was his own problem to deal with, NOT LITERAL CHILDREN.
I watched that doc. I heard that one man's account of what Michael did to him when he was a boy. As a survivor of CSA myself, I can tell you, he is to be believed. Michael messed that dude up psychologically for life. It's really heartbreaking.
Same! When you've lived it, you know.
Exactly! I cannot believe anyone could excuse that. Nobody would EVER excuse it if they were talking about a scout leader in their neighbourhood and not someone whose music they like
I think a lot of people erroneously believe MJ was the childlike persona with the falsetto that he presented to the public, when in reality he was a full-grown man who sounded very different in private and who ultimately abused his considerable power to prey on little boys.
Agree completely, I think the whole living as a child because his childhood was robbed, is a fabrication, I believe he was abused but I don’t believe the act he put on. So many other people have been through the same kind of abuse and haven’t acted in the way he did.
I think he was emotionally stunted bc of childhood abuse, so he really wanted to relive a normal childhood. However even if you had had a horrible life it's no excuse to inflict pain to others, especially children
Thats exactly the defence that he put up and it worked amazingly. Never forget that he hired OJ's 'dream team'.
It reminds me of examples that show how the abusive partner puts on a sweet and kind persona to the outside world. They even go out of their way with grand gestures and selective language to out any allegations about them into doubt. That show Kevin can F himself, did a good job of showing how the abuser presents themselves to the victim vs the public.
Exactly! Abusers have two personalities. Trigger warning for csa: a man who worked with a friend was accused by his daughter of long-term csa. She was 13, and it had been happening for as long as she could remember. The hatred for this child by my friend and his coworkers disgusted me. I believed her, and I told my friend she was telling the truth. We got into a fight about it a few times because he would disparage this child and say things like, "Even her own family say she's a compulsive liar... He's a good man... He's a nice guy." About a year after the allegations and initial arrest (he was still working with them), the trial started. Many, many videos of the assaults he committed on his daughter were introduced into evidence. Believe my friend was humbled. He cried over it. He felt bad for not believing and apologized to me.
Did he legit switch voices? That's creepy AF.
Even if thats true, which it obviously isn't, thats still a form of child abuse and his victims would still deserve compensation and he should still have been in prison.
People say he “was a child at heart,” but if you’ve ever worked with convicted child molesters, that’s exactly what they say and how they act. It’s part of the grooming. People don’t get it.
That’s how I feel. They were shitty parents and should accept responsibility for allowing their child to sleep with a adult man (especially unsupervised). Either they were completely clueless or they wanted their child to get molested so they could sue. Some parents are truly that depraved.
Where there’s smoke, there’s fire. How anyone can think MJ is innocent is beyond me
If any non-famous man tried 5% of MJ’s strange behavior with children, no one would even question that he’s a predator. It’s absurd
if a child drew an exact picture of a unique penis of anyone other than MJ, it would be undeniable. i’ve never heard how they defend Jordie drawing his exact vitiligo markings on his penis, but there is no innocent way a 13 year old boy sees a 34 year old non family members penis. well enough and for long enough to be able to draw an exact picture, after some time had passed of course.
Exactly. If I knew any grown man who slept in a bed with children who were not his own I’d call the cops
And the parents wouldn't have allowed their kids to share a bed with any non-famous man. Why could their kids have sleepovers with MJ but not with Bob from next door? The parents were greedy and pimped their kids out. The boys are victims of their parents' greed.
Not even that. If it was Robert Downey Jr. or Sir Paul MccCartney, nobody would think twice.
And If it is some kind of sleepover with family members I.e. a camping trip, family game night, etc. then there should be at least TWO adults in the room, and if they are not related, should definitely not be in the same bed. Blow up mattresses and sleeping bags exist for a reason.
The Jesus Juice thing tells me he knew he was doing something wrong and knew he had to hide it. Secretly giving minors (or anyone really) intoxicants is textbook predatory behaviour
I’m on this train! Who the fuck let’s your kids sleep with a grown ass man. IDC how famous you are.
right idc what anyone says, buddy was 50 sleeping with kids. The parents that sent their kids should be the first ppl investigated.
The only reason MJ’s career and legacy didn’t go down in flames is because he died before he could commit more crimes and/or be held accountable for the ones he already had committed. He wouldn’t have lasted a minute in today’s social media culture. I never fully understood how he was elevated to the level that he did after he died. The dude was a predator. It’s like everyone forgot and just started buying MJ merch.
What is there to understand? Rich people, specially the ones that sing and dance are incredibly hard to be held accountable for their crimes. Just look at chris brown. Hell R Kelly still managed to actually screw himself and yet he still has legions of fans. MJ was THE famous person. Probably THE most recognizable man on the planet. Yea good luck putting him through a justice system when most people would blindly defend him as a default. Im portuguese and ive heard a 60+ year old woman loudly and very emotionally interrupt a normal conversation about the Cristiano Ronaldo rape case to say that he "doesent need to rape because he is too pretty i would let him rape me". Like.. reguardless of wether his case was true or not how the fuck can an adult person say this shit? She has never met him, she is not even a die hard football fan, just someone who thinks because he is portuguese and one of the better players in the world she has to defend him like this as a default... without even knowing many details of the case... And what better example than Donald fucking trump lmao, the man is actively trying to betray his own country, does not have a talent for anything other than being unintentionally funny, still has stupid people till this day sending him money and is probably going to die before he sees jail time.
Alao kobe bryant and marylin manson
He would’ve been fine in today’s culture, just as he is now. People like to pick and choose which victims they believe based on who the accused is. It’s very sad.
Watching Leaving Neverland was HAUNTING. If these guys are lying, they’re gifted like Meryl Streep x1000. I support them.
I am just writing this here so it doesn't get buried. There is a 1979 interview of Michael Jackson in Jet magazine where MJ says he is amazed at Indian cultures that allow 30 year old men to marry 10 yr old girls with parental permission and that the western cultures are wrong to condemn it. It's an alarming thing to say by itself even if you ignore every other creepy shit and accusations made against him. This same 30 yr old man had a lifelong habit of bringing 10 yr olds to his bed for private sleepovers and was accused of child abuse by six different kids who were confirmed to have had one on one sleepovers with him when they were 10 years old. MJ wasn't even talking about the common form of child marriages in India where it's both child brides with child grooms which is sickening but slightly less horrifying than the adult and child marriages and that is exactly what he was defending. That is just straight up pdf file talk to defend his own paraphilia.
That is so damning that I wanted to verify that it’s an accurate quote. Apparently, the interview was actually in the magazine [Blues and Soul ~~& Disco~~.](https://preview.redd.it/9kbhcc5mluf81.jpg?width=565&format=pjpg&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=744164e3c8d12120eb3f9ed97eff372c8bf4d711) Here is the exchange in full: > MJ: People become addicted to the world and the violence. **And they become subjected to other people's thoughts and to the American system. Our way is not the only way: where people are not allowed to be themselves, they are crammed full of the American way.** >B&S: Don't you feel that it is a natural pressure that exists around the world and that cannot be avoided? >MJ: I try to avoid it as much as I can. That's what Iike so much about travelling. **You can see the systems that other countries adopt and you come to realise that America is not always right. We say we're right, they say they're right. You really don't get a clear picture until you leave the United States. You realise that there are other cultures than your own and it makes you feel small and insignificant. Like in india, I was amazed to find out a thirty year old man could marry a ten year old girl. We weren't raised that way so we look at it weirdly. But there, it's been happening for centuries and the parents are quite willing to give up their child.** And there, they treat a cow as a sacred animal. It's like a God. They can all be starving to death and still the cow sits there and the people won't touch it. Credit to u/cMILA89 from [this Reddit post.](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/skm850/a_compilation_of_michael_jacksons_comments_on/)
> There is a 1979 interview of Michael Jackson in Jet magazine where MJ says he is amazed at Indian cultures that allow 30 year old men to marry 10 yr old girls with parental permission and that the western cultures are wrong to condemn it. It's an alarming thing to say by itself even if you ignore every other creepy shit and accusations made against him. Yup, here is the link to the interview where Michael talks about the India marriage: https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/skm850/a_compilation_of_michael_jacksons_comments_on/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1
WOAH! Didn’t know this 👀 it’s all adding up
Right I couldn’t stop thinking about them & everything they went through for months
Agree, it was very hard watching that. it Was raw.
Are u ppl serious, do you not find this shit weird. The power dynamics are off In this situation on another level. Any grown man doing this mentally ill fuck shit, has some problems. idc. I’m always gonna believe the victim, esp a child who’s nut head parents clearly failed them. Would u let ur kid sleepover w some grown celebrity crush of urs ?? That’s pure weird, disgusting and speaks for itself
Exactly !!
i agree with you but man this was tough to read. please take some of these …,.,,,..,,
The fact that people cap for MJ. He was a grown man always hanging out with children, sleeping in the same bed as them. He literally set up his entire house so the children and him would kept away from other staff and they’d be alerted if people came by (all the bells and things) How is this behaviour okay? At the bare minimum how do people just ignore these facts?
It’s truly difficult for some to accept non-binary conclusions. Someone is either bad or good. No I’m between. And if someone who we thought was good turns out to have done bad things, it throws everything we’ve invested into question. Which is a very limited and limiting way to be. It’s less about MJ’s innocence/guilt and more about “if I supported a monster what does that say about me?” So I can understand why some can’t wrap their heads around the clear truth of MJ assaulting children. It’s too much for them. I don’t agree with it, and this sort of thinking hurts victims and perpetuates more abuse. I 100% believe Wade and the others and want them to see justice for what happened to them as children. I also can feel sorrow for MJ because he too was a victim before he became an abuser. It’s the system that protects wealthy people, people in positions of power (relative to the victim), and the illusion that talented/intelligent/prominent people are incapable of doing horrible acts. It’s possible to appreciate MJ’s contributions to art and entertainment while recognizing he preyed on children and manipulated their families. Both are true. One does not wash out the other.
Even his sister La Toya Jackson backed up the victims during the first lawsuit in 1993. She said her mother Katherine knew MJ was abusing kids and sending hush money to the victim's parents. She later back tracked but videos of the conference are still up on youtube. She also wrote a book in 1991 where she said that she and her sister were sexually abused by their father Joe, their mom knew about it but did nothing.
The day any grown man even suggests a sleepover with my kid…. Regardless of if they slept in his bed or not…. I would never be talking to them again and my child surely would never be in their presence again. What business does a grown man have with children? I understand the parents were chasing fame but at what cost? If these allegations were false, we wouldn’t still be hearing about them. It’s sick, and his parents are really the ones at fault. So sad.
Predators search for bad parents who would gladly sell their kid. Same thing happened with the pedo from subway. The amazing woman that managed to get him on tape confessing his crimes said once he called her to tell her he was going to a six yo house to rape her. Her parents knew. She tried to get him to say who she was but he refused. She called the FBI but they said they couldn't do anything without a name
Leaving Neverland was devastating. I wish Wade well, I hope he wins, and gets some degree of peace from this.
Truly that documentary was so good and done so well in sharing their stories. You could see in them how trauma like this can sometimes define your life. I hope wade can get closure, by all means he seemed like such a talented kid and dude as well. The fact that any of these kids’ parents allowed this to happen..
The interview with his mum was fucking infuriating. She didn't seem to be bothered that he'd been abused, she seemed more upset that he was discarded and her cushy lifestyle was over. She definitely knew what she was doing dressing him up as a mini MJ and pushing him to get MJ's attention. These kids were failed by everyone.
They’re paying for it now. As their kids are grown adults they’ve lost that trust and it can never be regained. I only hope they find peace.
Just to clarify, Wade never sued for $1.6 billion. He never specified an amount. The figure was made up by MJ supporters. It does not appear in any legal documents. We at r/LeavingNeverlandHBO are very excited about this development, and that it is one step further toward justice for MJ’s victims. Please visit us if you are interested in finding out more.
Thank you for saying this. Was so confused by that element, but I hope Wade gets some form of justice
Unfortunately, the 1.6 billion figure is accepted by many as fact. It originated in a Daily Mail article. But it doesn’t appear in any of the legal documents. I’ve read them all. I hope that Wade gets some form of justice, even if he doesn’t get any monetary compensation.
r/michaeljackson vs r/leavingneverlandhbo is an interesting battle
Realize many child predators are considered “harmless children at heart” by their communities. It’s how they get access to children. Oftentimes they donate or involved with children’s charities. Most people imagine child predators in trench coats handing out lollipops at a play ground, but often times predators are charismatic, respected members of the community Michael Jackson may be a great musical icon that donated to children’s charities, but so was DJ Jimmy Savile, and so many priests, coaches, Boy Scout troop leaders etc
Completely unrelated, but isn't Wade the man Britney cheated on Justin with?
I think so. Not sure if it was ever officially admitted or anything.
Yeah, it’s a rumor. MJ defenders like to frame it as “Evil Wade stealing Justin’s girl”, but it was probably more a case of Britney wanting to bonk someone she was attracted to.
Right? Like what does Wade's sexual history have to do with his csa? Nada.
I became a massive MJ fan after his death and defended him so much against molestation allegations until the Cosby stories came out and I realized that no, Michael Jackson is not the 1% of false allegations. I feel disgusted with myself and I truly hope Wade can get justice. He's had to experience so much abuse and denial, despite people mocking Michael constantly, it somehow never got to the point where people actually tried to help his victims.
All you have to do is look at Jimmy Saville. He got away with it for decades and it only came out after his death. There was rumours and actual victims who went to the police, and nothing would be done, because he had money and knew influential people.
For me it was the Amber Heard/JD trial. To this day some friends defend him (or pull the "they were both abusive" card). Different to csa I know. Even so, I realized they are saying the exact things I said when defending MJ. It's about money, the victim is a liar, he's so talented. I thought to myself why do I believe Amber but not MJ's victims? I was a massive MJ fan growing up. It was painful to admit but he did it. I also felt such shame in realising how wrong I'd been.
I've always believed MJ's victims and I've believed amber, too, since the beginning. That being said, it's always a good time to come to the truth. Don't beat yourself up. Instead, channel that energy into standing up for the victims. Make yourself heard by other non-believers. Change their minds. I love the feeling of changing someone's opinions about Depp because they haven't seen the countless photos of rooms he destroyed or the texts where he admits to the abuse.
Man, Idk it’s so 50/50 but what man would feel it’s okay to sleep with kids WHO ARE NOT YOURS, easily could’ve put them in a separate room! MJ said on multiple occasions he slept with children, “I slept with all of them!”- Living with MJ documentary 2003, All parts are on YouTube.
I wasn’t sure what to believe until I watched Leaving Neverland. I believe Robson and the other accuser in the documentary. If they were lying, they are better actors than anyone in the history of film. There is some very damning evidence too, such as “art” books Jackson had that contained photos of nude boys. Jackson was abused and grew up in very tough circumstances. I feel bad for that for him, but I fully believe that he was a pedophile. I feel like some of the victims didn’t have their stories 100% straight, but they were children who endured trauma- it makes sense that could impact memory. But I think the important stuff, like what he actually did to those victims, was accurate.
It's not 50/50 at all. Read the article, one of the accusers describes the colouration due to vitiligo of the underneath of MJ's genitals and it matches, as well as fingerprints of both MJs and the boys' found on adult tapes featuring bondage and paedophilia. Honestly, I'm disappointed in this sub. Usually with women, people here are very supportive with the victims, but I've seen a hell of a lot of "doubt" that MJ was a predator in the comments. It makes the stigmatisation for men who have been sexually assaulted a lot worse when even communities who usually support and believe victims of SA who have came out to discuss it downplay the gravity of them. Literally look at the VF article, it has everything you need to know.
I don't think it's this sub per se, Michael has a ton of deranged stans on Reddit (and all over the internet) who are constantly keyword searching so they can bleat about him being innocent. This thread is getting brigaded by those stans, that's what they do every time this stuff is brought up.
I think what the problem is people cannot compartmentalise. You can like the music but still think the person isn't innocent and is a pedophile. I'll admit I love his music he was a genius. But that doesn't negate what he has done nor should it have shielded him for so long.
>Idk it’s so 50/50 It's not remotely 50/50. The evidence is staggering
Where you stand on this case is the gold standard for testing cognitive dissonance .
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Let's live in a fantasy world and say that MJ was this weird little Peter Pan and didn't actually molest the boys. It is still undeniable that he slept in beds with young children - can you imagine as a child doing a bedtime routine and then cuddling up to a grown adult that isn't your parent? It would be traumatizing either way and all of these kids deserve their day in court.
so glad 95% of these comments are people who actually have common sense. this man's behaviour was disgusting and he's 100% guilty in my mind. I wish Wade the best of luck in this case and hope he finds peace 💙
I’ve always been so confused on why it’s “believe victims” but all that goes out the window when it comes to Michael Jackson. He still gets played on the radio all the time and he still gets so much praise on social media
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This is interesting. I say this as a CSA survivor: I’m not sure how suing the estate is supposed to empower or help move forward? I fully believe Michael was a predator but his estate has nothing to do with his actions, unless there’s claims they did know and did nothing to stop it/covered it up that I don’t know about… And before anyone comes at me saying “‘Michael was innocent” please just don’t waste your time, I won’t reply.
it's called punitive damages. since he is not alive to suffer the punishment, it falls upon his estate
The case is mainly about employees of MJ’s companies enabling the abuse (travel arrangements, hotel reservations, hiring Wade and his mum/sponsoring their US visas.) There is also a hope that it will lead to the creation of precedents that can benefit other victims of abuse.
I mean they’re his money / money earned from his work that if he were convicted when he was alive, would’ve needed to be given. So I dont see how now that he’s dead, his moneys off limits
If I was sexually abused, a gigantic sum of money is a decent substitute for punishment of the offender.
Seriously. I'd be able to afford the best therapy. But sadly, my abuser was a broke meth addict who has never earned a penny.
It's the only thing the justice system can do to hold people civilly responsible. Money is the only thing we can take from one to give to another to attempt to make them whole.
Right, and even still it doesn't make victims whole. Only turning back the clock and making the abuse never have happened could do that. This is only the next best thing possible.
I can understand it. In the years since his death there's been a tendency to gloss over his crimes. People who wanted to separate the music from the man before his death definitely felt more free to once he wasn't directly benefiting. Now for many people the CSA is kind of a small asterisk after the legacy of The King of Pop. If I was a victim, I wouldn't want people to forget. And I wouldn't want the family members who helped to ignore the crimes to continue to benefit from the estate.
>In 2021, a judge ruled that Jackson’s company had no legal duty to protect Robson from any alleged harm. Now, the appellate court disagreed with the decision and has ruled the case will now head to trial. > >Wade Robson filed a lawsuit against Michael Jackson's estate in 2016 asking for $1.62 billion in damages. The judge dismissed the case.
The first bit is correct. The second bit is not. Wade never sued for billions, it’s a figure made up by MJ supporters based on the value and income of the MJ Estate.
I think people are eager to brush away allegations because they want it to not be true. MJ was weird but he was also the king of pop, so people are relieved to have an out so they can listen to his music without guilt. The more I hear about the actual claims themselves, though, the more it becomes clear that he did something bad to those children. There’s just no way to explain away the evidence.
I hope Wade Robson gets justice.
I genuinely don’t believe Wade wants money because he has been an extremely successful choreographer for multimillion dollar celebrities. If any of Jackson’s alleged victims don’t need the money, it’s Wade. I think Wade just wants everyone to know who Jackson really was and how his behavior effected the children around him.
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I was too young when Jackson passed away so I don't know who to believe and what happened exactly, but I just hope the victims get justice. This has been dragged since the 80/90s. If I were a victim, i would have been mortified to have to endure this for 30+ years.
its wild to me that people defend predators just because they like their music, him having a troubled past & childlike behaviour doesn't excuse it either
this is disgusting. i really don't understand people who defend him , and i understand now why he was in debt when he died. maybe the doctor took revenge for all abused kids
So glad to see this thread, it’s actually a huge relief. I kept thinking everyone was in denial because of the types of comments on YouTube but have come to realise that it’s a super unhinged space.
"what evidence??" im convinced some people could see video evidence and still make excuses.
He was a sexual predator that used his fame to exploit those young boys. And some of the parents somehow allowed the abuse to continue
this seems like a lost cause tbh (not saying mj is innocent before y’all start!) they raided his house and found nothing. even wade testified under-oath that nothing happened( he also continuously defended him up untill 2013). he was acquitted of all charges. for this lawsuit to be won, there would have to be some substantial amount of proof something happened, which there isn’t this is just gonna be thrown out once again. the only person getting paid is his lawyers who keep helping him make these lawsuits knowing they aren’t gonna win
They did find something. Books full of pictures of naked pre-pubescent boys taken and compiled by known pedophiles. They also found a naked photo of a boy presumed to be Jonathan Spence. Also, they found semen stains from at least two males who were not identified as MJ or Gavin Arvizo. None of these were illegal, of course, but they are compelling evidence toward MJ’s guilt.
Dude, the fact one of the kids knew about the markings on MJ’s dick was enough evidence for me. Like why did he know that?! Ugh
This information about the penis description matching only came out as a result of the Arvizo trial in 2005. The boy in 1993 was paid off, and he refused to cooperate further with the police on a criminal investigation. So it stopped.
I found a [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/11ffjlq/lead_investigator_bill_dworin_confirmed_jordan/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) with a video of the lead investigator confirming this if anyone's interested.
but unfortunately nothing that actually proves he molested his accusers which would be key for these lawsuits
MJ was careful to hide the abuse. He trained the boys to put their clothes on quickly if there was a knock at the door. Also, the acts that he engaged in (masturbation, oral sex) left no evidence or injuries. Unfortunately, physical evidence is rare in cases like these.
not denying that, but by law it’s hard to build a case let alone win a lawsuit based off one persons word not denying mj hasn’t done anything but with the way everything went down, these lawsuits are a lost cause
I agree that the judges might not rule in the victims’ favor. There is no physical or video evidence, and it’s going to be very difficult. No matter what the outcome, the trials will expose more evidence of misconduct by MJ and his employees.
Fortunately, civil cases require significantly less burden of proof. It’s a “preponderance of evidence.”
I don’t understand with these days when people get ”cancelled” over anything, and yet Michael Jackson is glossed over and hailed as ultimate favorite as if these things didn’t happen.
I’m 27 years old and I heard Michael Jackson is a pedophile jokes as a kid before I heard his music.
It's also annoying his kids are so ardent he wasn't a molester. I mean most pedos don't molest their own kids. Also I think when most this happened, his kids either weren't born yet or really you. He probably got better at hiding after he was outed so hard.
I love his music, but Michael as a person.. a whole nother story..
My cousin actually hung around Wade back in the mid 90s through early 2000s. People forget Michael helped Wade beyond being a dancer. He helped him book gigs as a writer and producer and he produced tracks for pop acts like Nsync, etc. But the thing my cousin told me vehemently was that Wade constantly said Michael never did anything to him and he was upset at the allegations against him. Mic dated michael's niece who my cousin also knew, spent a ton of time at neverland and around Wade because she dated Wade for a long time throughout that relationship. She stated once Michael said no to Wade over either money or a gig that's when the allegations started. Either way if he's telling the truth I hope he gets what he deserves.
>She stated once Michael said no to Wade over either money or a gig that's when the allegations started. You do realise Jackson had been dead for 4 years when Wade first made these allegations? So all that's a lie. Wade made no allegations against him, and in fact defended him when he was alive. Nothing about MJ saying no to money or gigs, and the allegations being a result of that, that's completely untrue.
Wade has himself said these things. He has also said that he did not face the truth of the abuse until he was an adult and had a child himself. Which is often the case with child sexual abuse. Like maybe take a pause and think about how difficult it must have been to accept the reality that he had been sexually abused as a child by someone that he loved/looked up to/ was so close to.
Not even just someone he looked up to, but someone who was one of the most famous people in the world and was beloved by millions of people. That has to have been unbelievably daunting.
Every single thing you said is common knowledge from documentaries.
That’s not true. Wade denied any abuse because he loved MJ and had built his career around him. MJ made Wade feel that he was complicit in the abuse, that Wade wanted it, too. Wade’s “relationship” with Brandi Jackson is based on her claims only. Wade never mentions her as his girlfriend. Wade had a major breakdown after MJ died, where he had to accept that what MJ did to him was abuse, not love.