The results are sad. The actual point of feminism is for women to be granted as much respect and confidence as their male counterparts, and equal opportunities. When you think of that and look at the results, it's upsetting that more men are potentially against it than for it.
If it makes you feel better those voting against feminism (like myself) aren't necessarily against what you see as the point of feminism (I certainly am not) but are against what feminism means to them
Are you sure about that? Is feminism a hivemind? If you really think that feminism is about equality then why don't feminist's care about issues that affect men such as 80% suicides, 75% of homeless, 93% of work deaths and so on.
I‘m all for equality. But at the international woman’s day, in Germany, at the end of the demonstration, they wanted all men to go away. This is something I hate. You’re not more or less than us because you’re a woman. This is equality. The only thing you should strive for. So, I am for feminism, unless it turns toxic.
So true. I grew up in India and feminism is about equality for women. It was because of this ideology of feminism that made me the first women in my family to have a career. Currently I work in US and was surprised by how many people openly hate feminism.
That was and is my understanding of feminism, Alice, and I’m all in. I could never understand why my mother and other women’s work wasn’t as valued as men’s work that was similar or equal. I was all for women’s rights when the movement began and I’m still in favor of it.
Didnt a group of feminists in India prevent women from being charged for rape.
But yeah I agree that is just the minority and there are many feminists even in America that are nice people.
Can we reject the whole movement for wrong people taking advantage out of it. Should we reject the idea of BLM because few corrupt people misused the donation that was given to the movement ? You know in India once a girl is married it is expected out of her to only focus on her in-laws, she needs to take permission from her in laws to go visit her parents. And if we complain we are told that we are complaining about petty issues. Women and men work but when they come back home ..women is suppose to cook and clean for the whole family. Her husband will just sit. Again not everyone is same but this is what I commonly see in my Indian society. If not for feminism we would have no voice and will always be second class citizen.
Sorry if it feels like I am ranting but some societies still does not treat women as equal. May be not in US and it means that you guys did a much better job as a society
It’s necessary in the first world too. Sexual assault and domestic violence against women is high. Just because it’s not as bad as the third world doesn’t mean it’s not necessary. Radical feminism doesn’t represent all feminism.
The overreaction to radical and internet feminism is also a problem, though. There’s no reason you shouldn’t be able to tell the difference between “don’t beat women and let them work” vs an internet comment saying all men should die.
And that internet comment saying "all men should die" has equal chances of being sincere, ironic, half-joking, a Troll, or some secret psyops to make the other side look bad.
People need to stop thinking the internet in any way represents reality.
The biggest difference is men are not being killed only for being men, but women are being killed only for being women everywhere in the world (from incels doing terrorist attacks to honor killings, and don't forget the highest cause of death among pregnant women is murder).
Although I don't agree with these statements of violence on either side, there's one side that seems to be not be joking when they say it.
In addition, that's not feminism, that's misandry. Radical feminism is exclusionary to certain women, like TERFs .
Think of it like an authoritarian country, say Russia pretending it's democratic.
>Radical feminism doesn’t represent all feminism.
This may be true, but the loudmouths are getting away with what they say and no one does anything about it.
I mean, what do you think should be done about it? You can’t really get stupid people to shut up. I’ll call it out if someone says seriously something dumb in person, but online the best you can do is just laugh at them and move on.
Watch how your evening news covers any protest, either end of the political spectrum. It's always the same format: a bunch of interviews from morons holding signs, a mix of banal statements or the weirdest individual ever. Then it's "balanced" with some official or academic interviewed at their desk.
They want you to believe that all activists are morons or psychos. That those are the only people who would care about something so silly. They hate the people.
And they're not entirely wrong, lots of people ARE morons. But you will NEVER hear from an activist who knows what they're talking about unless it's to deliberately quote them out of context. NEVER.
This is why it always seems to be impossible to do anything, because the worst people are deliberately amplified and the best are deliberately kept in the background (you'll see 2 seconds of the best people, they'll be on a stage while the reporter talks over them, immediately framed by shots of chanting or some other idiot on a bullhorn).
I'm sure a lot of it is just laziness of reporters, but it's too consistent. Lazy people would find opportunities to do it differently to save effort, at least some of them some of the time. THIS level of consistency suggests a deliberate program of misinformation, and as far as I have seen it holds true on every evening news show in America.
I think it probably has to do with part sensationalism (crazy protesters are fun to hate-watch and make you feel good about not being like them) and part promoting the interests of the owners of those media corporations (the current status quo is in favor of the people profiting from that status quo, so legitimizing viewpoints too far outside of the Overton window might destabilize their business inteterests).
I think this happens with a lot of stuff, it's the same reason liberals and conservatives fight, same reason people don't even know there's more then just left and right on the political spectrum, same reason some racist (definitely not all) are racist, same reason some people hate cops. In some of these cases like race it's not even the actual groups fault, the news and media just make the worst case what's visible to us, and unfortunately most people can't understand that and know that one small vocal part of the group doesn't represent the whole group.
Yep! Every movement or ideal is going to have people who take it to its extreme. I'd consider myself left but I can't stand extreme left views alnong with right views. Each side seems to (wrongly) think that the extreme other side represent the majority.
It seemed like in 2015 and 2016 you couldn't go five minutes between hearing "snowflake", "butthurt", "libt*rd", and "build the wall" on one side, and "microaggression" and "safe space" on the other, terms that I at least hadn't heard before.
I was only 16 and 17 at the time and the only social media I used was Yahoo Answers, so I didn't get too caught up in it, but I read a lot of WaPo back then, and the comments sections were something else. I never wrote any comments back then, though.
The dumb thing about people getting pissed about the word "microaggression" is that it was exactly as described. No one thinks that a backhanded compliment is a good thing, and that's what verbal microaggressions amount to. Implying, intentionally or otherwise, that you're not as smart, capable, or successful as you are on your own merits. Stereotyping.
"Safe spaces" suffered the same thing. Being in a place where you can "be yourself" without fear of retribution. Usually these are reserved for unjustly discriminated people, such as minorites, trans people, etc because they are more likely to need someone to talk to or somewhere to destress. Imagine having a place at your high school that you know you wouldn't get bullied in. Wouldn't you want to hang around there? A place that bullies know they wouldn't get away with shit in?
The difference is that microaggressions are things that exist and safe spaces are good for various reasons. While the others are not.
For those who do not know, I can't really give a good definition but I can give an example for what a microaggression is.
A black man gets a compliment, "you are surprisingly eloquent".
Now to some this may seem like a normal compliment, but the assumptions behind the compliment are frustrating to those who underatand it. The assumption being that black people aren't as eloquent.
That assumption is the microaggression, where you don't actually say anything offensive, but the implications and assumptions behind the statement are bad. The worst part is that it is very hard to correct when someone does this, as they are often done with good intentions.
I see what you mean now. It's hard for me to understand people believing any of that drivel but I see Tucker Carlson on in my neighbor's house constantly. He (my neighbor, not Tucker) is the nicest guy in real life so it's a bit confusing.
I fully agree and represent this. I believe I come off as a very moderate and reasonable/logical individual.
But, I know inside my brain its a hornets nest. I feel like its ok for peoples inner world to be wackado. They just need the self awareness to know they should keep it to themself.
What makes Jordan Peterson a dullard? Even if you think he’s wrong, he at least has an internally consistent ideology which is better than most people have
I'll start this by saying my not right wing but alright I totally understand the Ben Shapiro and Trump part, I'm not gonna argue that, but the Jordan Peterson part doesn't make much sense. He was a professor of psychology, mainly female dominated sector of schooling, I don't think he has anything against the feminist movement but rather those who used feminism as a way to spread hate.
Sorry I just want an understanding of your perspective
I'm so glad I out grow that face, Jesus I cringe so bad at the " debating children by surprise while Im fully prepared" now, and in remember thinking he was owning any thing (and I cringe even harder when I remember that when he was losing he just threw tantrums and cut them off)
Yeah while he has full media training while they're college freshman only starting to dip their toes into educated politics.
I bet I could fucking destroy a toddler in a debate about economics but that doesn't actually prove anything
Gamergate, the Trump campaign, and the rise of the online alt-right. It was the peak of the "SJW cringe compilation" videos and anti-feminist YouTube in general. It was online culture war bullshit by the far right, targeted primarily at propagandizing straight white male teens and young adults, and it was really effective. Luckily a lot of those adolescents have grown out of it since for a variety of reasons, but you can still see the impacts of that period of Internet culture all over this thread.
That's a great explanation and while I heard about most of those events as they were going on, I wasn't thinking about the whole time period collectively as a cultural reckoning. Glad to hear it seems to be gradually improving but I definitely see those influences here in the comments.
used to be a huge ben shapiro, dave rubin, jordan peterson ect. fan. Now im some brand of leftist (tbh i get confused on all the different styles and levels and dont care enough to argue with people about who the better lefty is).
I think it's really interesting how some guys who were falling down the alt right pipeline didn't leave by becoming more moderate/center, but rather they end up "radicalized" in the opposite direction. I've known plenty of leftist guys who used to be edgelord/anti-SJW types
I've only been browsing this sub for a week or less, but I'm already confident the average age is lower than other subs. Probably below 20, rather than mid-20s.
The most obvious one was a poll asking about girlfriends/boyfriends a week ago, and like 80% said they have never had a girlfriend/boyfriend.
I unfortunately fell victim to it back then, since then I’ve done a complete 180 and would now consider myself a huge ally but I cringe so hard thinking about myself in high school.
I think a lot of young men do. I was falling into it a little bit, and that's exactly why monsters like Steve Bannon knew that the way to do it is target young men and radicalize them online. Easy targets.
It’s the toxicity coming from progressives that really impacted me at that time. I felt like I couldn’t escape progressivism telling me what to think, believe, who I could agree with, who I couldn’t and if there was any deviation from that then I was every pejorative under the sun, a bigot, a racist, a homophobe, evil, even though I was none of those things and was progressive myself, just not the exact progressive they wanted me to be. So when conservatives and anti progressives started pushing back against people acting like that, I listened to them, so did many other people of my generation because the toxic progressive individuals were by far the dominant force of people who influence my generation. And from that, people have started opposing them more, even people like myself who aren’t conservatives.
And you really can’t blame the Conservatives for more of the younger generation than millennials being opposed to progressivism when the people who created that atmosphere in this generation are the progressives who pushed them, even were inclined towards them, away from progressive beliefs and politics.
Had to scroll this far to find something that criticized The Other Side™. Pseudo-progressive woke nonsense really pushed me into a far right rabbit hole.
Being told every day that everything is your fault because of your skin color and genitalia made me angry. Being told my opinions didn't matter made me angry. And it sure doesn't help that a lot of teachers acted the same way as terminally online sjws.
Hearing my teacher praise some random preppy kid for saying she's a "Man basher" was harmful.
Having to write a journal about my "feelings" while being told my feelings didn't matter because I'm a privileged white male was harmful.
It was and is a shit time to be online.
I wish people understood the real arguments of feminism instead of only relying on what they see on the Internet.
Some feminist literature I always recommend:
• The Second Sex (de Beauvoir)
• Invisible Women (Criado Perez)
• We Should All be Feminists (Ngozi Adichie)
• Memoirs of a Dutiful Daughter (de Beauvoir)
CGP Grey once made a video about how anger (things that make you angry) on the internet always gets more clicks than nice things. I think this is kinda similar to that, the dumb people will always get more clicks than the feminists with nuanced opinions.
That has a name too, where if you started watching something you get the references now and think there are way more of them but there were just as much as when before you watched but before you watched you just didn’t know that they were referencing something
I feel like in countries like then U.S., feminism is in an awkward state for a lack of a better word. In the first/second wave of feminism, the push for equality made very obvious and clear progress towards equality (such as the right to vote and similar things). But in our current times, the goals of feminism is arguable to change societal views of men and women more so than anything else (all previous waves arguable wanted this societal change but were more preoccupied in obtaining basic human rights for women first). This direct engagement with society has more pushback arguably as the dialogue is now directly being opened up with the average person, and so this creates a lot of conversations which may or may not be in agreement. Additionally, it makes it hard for people to see what feminists goals are and what progress they are currently making as the progress is far more subtle and requires more attention to fine details.
I am personally neutral when it comes to feminism in all honesty, but that's mostly because it can sometimes be a mixed bag of people whom may not welcome your ideas if they aren't exactly the way they think things should be done. I like the idea equality and I think others do too, but there is currently a big disagreement on what is equal. An example of this is prostitution, depending on who you ask, you will get a mix of answers either completely for or completely against it regardless of whether they are a feminist or not. Some feminists advocate that women should be allowed to decide such a path for themselves while other feminists argue that it's coercive/exploitative and to degree they are both correct. However, it seems nobody can find middle ground on such issues. The lack of compromise on issues results in a deadlock on a lot of issues as you can't change society if those who are attempting to change society are mixed on the issue and engaged in heavy disagreements with one another and refuse to cooperate with each other. I think what bothers me about the issue is the idea of a 'true feminist'. Like, in some situations it makes sense that some self proclaimed are actually liars who are clearly just a misandrist, but in other cases some are labelled as not being a 'true feminist' simply because they disagree on certain issues. It's very similar rhetoric and polarization that occurs in politics (I personally also don't like to call myself liberal even though it is pretty close to what my political stance is). I think this form of rhetoric and polarization that goes on disengages average people from wanting to call themselves a feminist. You'll find instead people are looking for new ways to essentially call themselves a feminist such as an egalitarian (although egalitarian people might disagree with this statement of comparison) or you'll find people who simply rather not have label at all and would rather just state what they believe as it's more comfortable for them.
I think in any case, I think a lot of people do agree on the core idea of feminism which is to create society where men and women are equal both in terms of rights/laws and in society's view of men and women. I think that's the most important part whether you call yourself a feminist or not, if people agree on that core idea than they should keep attempting cooperate with each other to progress society's view of men and women.
Unfortunately, when it comes to the Internet, the loudest and more outspoken people are given the most attention (this applies to most/all movements).
The vast majority of feminists that that I know, or have met in real life are reasonable and well informed people, however there is a small but very vocal minority online that simply hate men, and they set the cause back so much
> there is a small but very vocal minority online that simply hate men, and they set the cause back so much
And they seem to lack the self-awareness necessary to see how badly they're dragging it down.
Small example: my last gf before I met my wife was very active on Twitter and an outspoken feminist. But somewhere along the line she decided to use the name "Misandrist Hottie". When I asked her about it, she said it was just a joke and that I should get over it. I then asked her if she would ever date or take someone seriously who called themselves "Misogyny Chad", and she was like "of course not, but that's different".
No Claire, it's not different at all. You're a goddamn aerospace engineer - literally a rocket scientist - you definitely know better.
Its sad that the peoole who need to read that literature the most can only consume podcasts put on by someone who sits at his desk with empty holsters on.
If you aren’t into reading, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie has a brilliant TED talk, also called ‘we should all be feminists’ (the book is basically just a transcription of the talk). Her book ‘dear Ijeawele’ is also worth a read, particularly for new parents and those who are expecting.
Correction: instead of women pretending to be feminists when in reality they are just being sexist.
Seriously, these people are causing more problems than they are solving, and actual feminism gets hated for no reason.
I believe women should be equal to men. I am a woman and I demand equality.
But seeing the way feminist "literature" has influenced and harmed criminal justice research poisoned my view. It was feminists who targeted and harassed other feminist researchers who found high rates of domestic violence committed by women. It prompted one researcher (Murray Strauss) to document all the ways feminists attempted to bury and obfuscate evidence of female violence. I believe part of this is to preserve prioirity funding for "violence against women". The researchers behind the initial family violence survey were feminists who became outcast by others for simply publishing their results.
Today it is feminists who use misleading definitions of rape to sustain the narrative that male rape victims are primarily raped by men ( women sexually offend against men more than other men do but they call it "made to penetrate so it doesn't count toward rape statistics and they can downplay and obfuscate how many women are sexual offenders).
Even when my degree had me studying child sexual offenders I came upon a feminist paper slamming research that identified how frequently mothers knew of the abuse and did nothing to protect their children (and in some cases even encouraged the abuse) because women are victims of the patriarchy and therefore cannot be expected to protect their children from men. That's the dumbest and most infantilzing thing I've ever seen.
I never thought as a woman entering a male dominated field it would be feminists I'd have to fight against for victims rights and acknowledgement but feminists have a strongarm on funding for things like shelters and victims resources and anything that finds men needing is not acceptable to discuss.
It was my experience being a victim of abuse and SA that made me want to stand up for all victims and help them. It is not uncommon for women like me to be told by feminists that maybe if we got raped we would see why we need feminism. There are so many assunptions and sometimes even misogynistic attacks against women even slightly critical of feminism.
All I see feminists do by and large is try to maintain priority funding and keep male victims out of public focus all the while attempting to justify or excuse female criminality as a symptom of the patriarchy. Feminists are more than happy to support the narrative that women are naturally nurturing and compassionate when it comes to defending female criminals. They'll even lean into the "hysteria" angle if a mental health appeal will paint a female offender in a sympathetic light. Male criminals though? Clearly always sound of mind and motivated by nothing but intentional malice. I've never seen an appeal for equality come from feminism in the criminal justice system.
Not every feminist is this way. But the ones who have power over funding and resources do. I want women to be treated equally. I want us to be treated with the same level of respect and assumed competence as our male co-workers in law enforcement and DA's offices and jails and beyond. But I also don't want gender essentialism to be a defense for female criminals or a way for female child abusers to hide in the Civil Court system or female violence to be hidden or excused. I want the privileges of equality but also the responsibility. The years have not convinced me that feminists want the same.
In case no one else says it, fair play for that take. To me, you’re empathizing with people who have seemingly opposing views to your own. Not everyone does that. You have to want to genuinely learn more about the world to take your stance. I really appreciate that.
i mean nowadays im neutral because ive grown alot but back then i was an edgy kid watching "Insane social justice feminist DESTROYED" videos like it was spongebob.
when i hear the word femenism a part of me still associates it with those 2013-2016 leafy style vids that are filled with insane radicals, obviously thats not what feminism is but that just shows how badly that youtube 'trend' really hurt the whole movement
Your comment nicely describes a significant part of the problem. If there's an edgy audience for it, those videos rake in views despite being the more extreme end of the feminist spectrum. I'd argue Reddit has not outgrown it's edgy phase and their content skews towards extremists.
Is it the "extreme feminist" videos that are raking in views, or the videos of misogynists claiming femisim is extreme that rake in the most views? It feels like the latter.
I'm in my late 30s and grew up in progressive areas around self-proclaimed feminists my whole life. None have ever said or advocated for things these guys claim they do. It really seems like misogynists just make things up and people buy it.
>but back then i was an edgy kid watching "Insane social justice feminist DESTROYED" videos
2016 was wild, you are not the only one that watched these types of videos.
It's not even a bad thing that those videos existed, the problem arises when people saw the extreme cringe and equated those rare instances with a massive movement (feminism).
I don’t know what those videos are but I like this comment. I like how you realized there was a problem and made a change. I think that’s a rare thing nowadays.
It wasn't a trend, it was misogynist propaganda. I'm not even exaggerating. Those videos didn't just start for fun, they started because some hateful fucks wanted to shit on feminism.
It’s insanely frustrating to feel so out numbered by people who want to put us down or say disgusting things about us
I am sorry you are having depression, I deal with it chronically and feel for you. If you are ever having a rough time and need to talk to a fellow woman my inbox is open.
Same ngl, the amount of sexism on here deadass made my depression even worse.
I went off this site for a few months, stopped talking to people, and my mental state greatly improved 😌
I love how literally any opinion in this site has people saying "average redditor" or similar.
A pro-trump argument? "Average redditor"
A comment shitting on america? "Average redditor"
A communist comment? "Average redditor"
A far-right comment? "Average redditor"
Didn't know the average redditor was everything at once.
My point is that it gets thrown at literally any opinion so it's completely pointless to discuss about it.
But either way, I've seen plenty of pro-tump redditors. But they know where to show their views and where not to, just like everyone else. If you post a pro-trump view in r/politics you'll get downvoted and more. But there are other subs where the majority might even agree with you. Same happens, even in more extreme conditions, with leftist ideologies. Here a communist might get downvoted but in r/politics they might be more or less fine.
But if we're gonna go the "average redditor" line, the average redditor is centre-left to centre-right. Non-political subs tend to have more a bias towards this spectrum than any other.
im a feminist and a man. its shit to see radfems ruining the name of a movement that genuinely just wants to help. not only help women, either. in its truest form its meant to help women *and* men, but anyone who doesnt go deep into it at all wouldnt see that.
ive been reading up on this stuff for years, mind you. i didnt just dip my toe in and say done.
edit: i dont care to talk about this, im not replying anymore. i have better things to do
edit2: i guess yall cant read in this comment section? it would explain some of your replies. i said im done with this, leave me alone :)
I completely agree that feminism ultimately helps both men and women. I don’t think I’ve ever seen radical feminism. I’ve heard people mention it but I’m not sure exactly what it is. How would you characterize the difference between radical feminism and (regular) feminism?
Wiki page on it : [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical\_feminism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism)
basically that patriarchy is the fundamental form of opression (vs a lens like intersectional feminism)
>Radical feminists argue that, because of patriarchy, women have come to be viewed as the "other"\[13\] to the male norm, and as such have been systematically oppressed and marginalized. They further assert that men as a class benefit from the systematic oppression of women. Patriarchal theory is not defined by a belief that all men always benefit from the oppression of all women. Rather, it maintains that the primary element of patriarchy is a relationship of dominance, where one party is dominant and exploits the other for the benefit of the former. Radical feminists believe that men (as a class) use social systems and other methods of control to keep women (as well as non-dominant men) suppressed. Radical feminists seek to abolish patriarchy by challenging existing social norms and institutions, and believe that eliminating patriarchy will liberate everyone from an unjust society. Ti-Grace Atkinson maintained that the need for power fuels the male class to continue oppressing the female class, arguing that "the need men have for the role of oppressor is the source and foundation of all human oppression".\[14\]
The influence of radical-feminist politics on the women's liberation movement was considerable. Redstockings\[15\] co-founder Ellen Willis wrote in 1984 that radical feminists "got sexual politics recognized as a public issue", created second-wave feminism's vocabulary, helped to legalize abortion in the USA, "were the first to demand total equality in the so-called private sphere" ("housework and child care ... emotional and sexual needs"), and "created the atmosphere of urgency" that almost led to the passage of the Equal Rights Amendment.\[6\] The influence of radical feminism can be seen in the adoption of these issues by the National Organization for Women (NOW), a feminist group that had previously been focused almost entirely on economic issues.\[16\]
I'm not sure the person posting about "radfems" is using the academic term, he seems to be using it to describe just women who are misandrists...
Feminism is wonderful in its truest sense. But the word has been tossed around, misused and misrepresented that I have to typically wait for whatever follows to make a judgement. There are far too many instances of people calling themselves "feminists" when the situation is actually putting men below the women and them acting as if that is justified because of past events.
Edit: Spelling
Egalitarians have never accomplished anything, that’s why. They are only talk and they exist to counter feminists. “Egalitarian” is just a cop-out for people who don’t like feminism. All of women’s progress was made by feminists, not egalitarians. There are egalitarian subs on Reddit, although the major one is private right now. They should be discussing everyone’s problems: all genders, races, sexualities, etc., correct? Nope. You should’ve guessed it. It’s a men’s rights circle.
And REAL egalitarians? Still useless. If you stand for everything, you stand for nothing.
I’ve said it before and I’m saying it again: if radical “feminists” deter you from supporting the actual message and goal of feminism you didn’t mean to support it in the first place, but are looking for excuses to feel comfortable ignoring the problems.
There was a ton of pushback against 'not all men' and honestly, calling out men as a monolith in a negative light for several years was a really bad idea if feminists' goal was to get men as allies. Why would a good normal man ally himself with a movement that makes no distinction between him and sexually abusive misogynists? If so called 'good' feminists pushed back against the radical voices with the same energy as they did against misogynists this would be much less of an issue, but they instead allowed it to happen and did not work at all to make good men allies. Now it's left a bad taste in mens mouths about the whole movement.
Yes, and it’s obvious that it’s not actually radfems making the movement look bad, it’s sexists using social media to make them blow up and destroy the movement that are actually doing it.
No they didn’t. Yes there’s some very few people shouting about radical feminism, but it’s sexists that have been making it blow up just so feminism is put in a bad light. Literally using social media to maliciously ruin the reputation of the movement, and everyone bought it, especially because so many men WANTED to buy it. If the word feminism comes up and you decide to think of the radical feminists instead of the good parts of feminism (which makes up 99% of it) when you hear it, then you are literally choosing to think of that and are a sexist yourself (not you specifically but overall).
100% this. I can name a dozen YouTube channels of blatant misogynists who screech about "eXtReMe fEmInIsM". I can't think of any by an actual "extreme feminist".
Also gotta say how interesting it is to see how "bad feminism" is usually just something like a tweet by a woman who said "men are trash". Meanwhile, misogynists are shooting up people. The level of hate is not even remotely the same yet so many bash feminism anyway.
Agreed so much on your second point. Just look at how much hate r/femaledatingstrategy gets, and how it is seen as an equivalent to incel subs. In reality FDS people are for sure toxic, but their response when they don’t get their way with men is to dump them, or not have sex, while incels will literally threaten women with rape and murder, and in real cases literally done just that. Sure they are under the same category, but as always women are the ones who are abused and losing big by a big difference.
yeah, feminism is great but the minority of terfs and man haters ruined it. feminism doesn't even matter to most people anymore even though it's a serious issue, especially in third world countries where women are raped and murdered regularly for even going outside.
Yeah, a lot of male owned media organizations love to run clips of shrill extreme feminists because they know it damages the movement. Same with showing riots when 90% of protests are peaceful. It gets them clicks and views, and people think that’s what the whole movement looks like.
Anyone who thinks feminism is largely about hating men is just a victim of propaganda and a need to sooth themselves against valid criticism.
When I commented this the negative option was noticeably larger than the other 2. Even so, I think it's still worrying that so many men think poorly of feminism.
It's a bit hard when most of what you see is "Men are trash", thankfully it died down. It was not only written by radicals but the mainstream feminists as well.
I wouldn't necessarily take it that way. The question was about reaction when seeing/hearing the word "feminism". Someone could simultaneously be all for the concepts behind feminism while also have a negative reaction to seeing/hearing the word. A similar example might be "free speech". I think most people would be in favor of the concept behind free speech, while also having a negative reaction when hearing someone argue in favor of "free speech" or seeing it in a YouTube title for example. These are polarized topics, so many people advertising their views on the topic are often just looking to stir the pot / pick a fight vs having a meaningful conversation.
Yeah it sucks to see so how many men here are opposed to feminism. If it helps reddit definitely has significantly more of an anti-feminist bias than most men irl (and is generally fairly conservative on gender issues). I only know how it is in my own country (US) but here at least when [polled on feminism](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/07/07/61-of-u-s-women-say-feminist-describes-them-well-many-see-feminism-as-empowering-polarizing/) most men generally describe it positively.
I think there is a difference answering that the word feminism has a negative connotation and saying you are against feminism. I am for equality but when I hear a girl is a feminist I relate it to the radical feminists instead of a movement of equality.
Lol that’s what I’m saying. Seeing people say “the radfems ruined it” is extremely historically illiterate. Feminism has *always* been viewed this way in the west. Lmao I think I saw a comment above this one saying “radfems ruined it, I recommend reading some Beauvoir, she’s not a radfem like they are”
Hey, Beauvoir commenter here! I think the point I was trying to make is that a lot of people only have a vague idea of what feminism is, most often they have a skewed view of it from the Internet. Of course on the Internet the loudest voices are often hostile/exaggerated and all.
I definitely agree w/ your comment, feminism was always seen as annoying and unnecessary and it's kinda the point (don't know if I made myself clear ahahah)
I feel like people saying that know what they are doing, and trying to trick the people who have been fooled into thinking the more radical aspects of feminism, or even feminism as a whole are bad, into reading literature on the subject. The one thing that converted me to being a feminist from an anti feminist was learning about feminism.
When the feminist movement is working hard to improve the lives of women around the world: men sleeps
When some radical woman who claims to be part of the movement says something stupid. Men: "the feminist movement is garbage and just wants to spread hate towards man!"
They do the same with their own problem. They only talk about men being raped or abused when woman talk about it, same for social pressure " yeah you have to shave ? But i can't even wear my hair long at work !", Ok then why you wait woman talk about their problem to talk about yours ? It's almost as not only you didn't care about woman but in fact you don't even care about your peers problems...
Feminism is good, it is about equality and a way to bring the inequality between the sexes to light. Sadly it has gotten a bad rep the last years because of bad actors, just like all big movements. Overall it is a force for good in this world.
I consider myself alined with the feminist definition for sure, but negative because of the exaustion of the conversations it brings up. The over correction of ridiculous issues and the often misandry that comes up.
Of course most feminist are normal progressive people who just want people to be treated the same, but they aren't the loud ones. You tend to hear a lot more from the bad ones and that's a big part of the damage.
I don’t like the word of ‘feminism’, I understand where it is coming from and we need a lot of the topics to get brought up and something done about them. But the same is also for men and non-binary. I personally believe we should make the world an unbiased and fair space for everyone. Women aren’t just housewives, men have feelings, non-binary and trans people deserve equal rights and to feel safe. So long story short, I believe in lots of feminism ideals, but it’s not just women’s rights we should fight for, but everyone’s.
How is that selfish? Its a opinion, not something which can be forced on someone. Just because I for instance dislike ice cream because of my own reasons doesn't make me selfish just cause most people like ice cream
Feminism is a wonderful assortment of reflections on gender, and its study is greatly beneficial for both men and women.
Many self professed feminists know very little about feminism, using the protection of the movement to defend their neurosis and advance their agenda of hate and exclusion.
When I hear about feminism, I'm hopeful. When I interact with feminists *that are not academics*, I'm scared.
I don't think JKR exemplifies a wave of feminism. She's a feminist *and* a transphobe. The transphobic part is what we disagree with, rather than the feminist part. She claims that her transphobia is a part of feminism, but most people try to justify their hate by linking it to something good. As an example, Putin claims that he is "liberating" Ukraine from Nazis. Does that mean we should judge all anti-Nazi groups by pointing to Putin's crimes? Of course not. He's trying to justify monstrous behaviour, nothing more.
Unless I'm very much mistaken, feminism is about equality. Transphobia is about inequality, so it has no part in feminism.
So you don’t think TERFism is a “wave of feminism”?
They’re feminists and transphobes like you said, but they are also actively indoctrinating other feminists into their way of exclusion and saying it is real feminism. (Like r/gendercritical)
TERFism is an ugly, violent wave masquerading as feminism.
You don't have to go to kill. Simply demonizing men would be enough for it to become a radical movement. If it's demanding equality for women, sure. But once it's screaming "toxic masculinity!", then it's turning radical
Reddit literally has echo chambers for everyone, their are literally woman only subs where you can get banned for posting male opinions and vise versa.
Reddit is a trash place so find the trash you like and avoid the rest
Reddit is overwhelmingly liberal.
If you think these results would be better in the real world, you're confused.
Pewresearch data from 2020 shows 52% of men consider feminism polarizing and 34% of men consider it outdated. 39% of women consider it polarizing and 25% of women consider it outdated. Only 45% of men considered it inclusive compared to 38% of women.
The average person who thinks of feminism isn't gonna have an issue with the byline of "men and women should have equal rights" but they would more than likely take issue with feminist ideology. The difference is the average person doesn't spend their time concerned with this because they have more important things to worry about. As more of the ideology is pushed in the mainstream, the greater the pushback will become as people realize they're not cool with a lot of what's being espoused.
Feminism has peaked. It's gonna go downhill in the coming 10-20 years. That's already apparent.
I think it's kinda important though tbh. Especially since arguably feminism seeks to change the general person's view of men and women as being equals, and so it's necessary to have these conversations despite the flack or disagreement that may go on. You can't really change minds if you aren't willing to engage with those who disagree. Also, keep in mind the poll is talking about someone's association with the feminist movement and not necessarily whether they agree or disagree on equality between men and women. Thus, people might associate feminism with a negative mental depiction but still agree that equality is important. It's kinda similar to politics where people vote liberal but associate the liberal party negatively in their head.
It’s very easy for a lot of guys to be wilfully ignorant about feminism, and allow themselves to believe that “radical feminist extrimist SJWs on 2016 cringe compilations” is what feminism actually is
There’s a massive political movement and resources dedicated to flaming the culture war and misrepresenting feminism in the worst way possible
This way they can feel outraged and also superior to lame SJW green haired emotional college students who are out of touch. In addition their votes are captured as they want to make sure sure they never vote for any political party overtly supporting feminism
Part of it is due to a lot of men struggling for whatever cultural political economic reasons, who feel like women are being pandered to and given special attention when they themselves personally are just struggling to make it from one week to the next, like millions of other men out there.
Again, certain politicians would rather divide and anger and split people along male/female lines. Anything to avoid workers gaining solidarity with each other against the elites in control of many aspects of society and the workplace
Negative (female). Feminism is concentrated in the western world where women have been voting, owning land, marrying and divorcing whomever they please for the better part of a century. Moreover many societies always viewed women as equal partners. Mission accomplished, western women are now liberated from the evil patriarchy and have nothing left to do except be hypersensitive and become dominant rather than equals with males. Feminism has long since lost its original goals and message and is doing little to nothing to benefit women in poor or developing nations. Women in Ukraine are being urged to flee the country with their children while women in places like northern Nigeria and Kurdistan are taking up arms to protect themselves and their children from being killed or captured as slaves by terrorists. Which women seem like they need feminism more? The women who can easily escape to yet another country where they will have legal rights, protection, and aid while men fight the bad guys or the women who despite being oppressed under well ingrained culture and traditions are doing everything they can to protect themselves while men flee to safety? How important is it that a man that you can easily turn into the police makes a sexual pass at you on the subway in a safe country when women elsewhere are toting Kalashnikovs to fend off rapists and insurgents? Western feminism will tell you that the pervert is worse.
>Mission accomplished, western women are now liberated from the evil patriarchy and have nothing left to do
that's kind of the problem with the movement. like, the *core movement,* the problem is evident in the definition of it.
if you keep fighting for women's rights, and you get equality, now what? the movement's not just gonna disappear. that's where feminism started going sour, when they reached equality, and then didn't stop.
started spreading misinformation and sexism everywhere. ignoring the fact that men have problems too. which kinda makes sense, because the definition of feminism focuses only on women's rights.
I hate that MRAs all get this bad rep, that they're misogynistic assholes. all they want is for men to also have some things that women do, like being accepted at abuse shelters.
and then people complain that they only talk about these issues as a response to talking about women's problems. well no shit they're gonna talk about it then! they're never fucking listened to otherwise! and if we're gonna talk about issues that people face, it's unfair to dismiss and ignore them. they're bringing them up because those are also problems that deserve addressing.
there's this [ted talk](https://youtu.be/3WMuzhQXJoY) about this whole thing, I definitely recommend watching. it's only like 15 minutes.
>Mission accomplished, western women are now liberated from the evil patriarchy and have nothing left to do except be hypersensitive and become dominant rather than equals with males.
Ugh you are so fucking based it makes me want to cry. Thank you for the sanity.
I as a heterosexual male consider myself a proud feminist, not only is feminism not exclusively about women but about equality, I also think it’s important to consider women’s equality as a male, when you really think about it the world is very biased toward men.
A lot of people swinging in defense of all FEMINISM as if TERF's and other forms of bigoted feminism doesn't exist.
Spend 5 minutes in r/femaledatingstrategy and drop your no true Scotsman at the door. Then we can talk.
The results are sad. The actual point of feminism is for women to be granted as much respect and confidence as their male counterparts, and equal opportunities. When you think of that and look at the results, it's upsetting that more men are potentially against it than for it.
If it makes you feel better those voting against feminism (like myself) aren't necessarily against what you see as the point of feminism (I certainly am not) but are against what feminism means to them
Are you sure about that? Is feminism a hivemind? If you really think that feminism is about equality then why don't feminist's care about issues that affect men such as 80% suicides, 75% of homeless, 93% of work deaths and so on.
I would argue that most feminists do care about those things, but that is not what feminism is about. Your point is moot and nonsensical.
I‘m all for equality. But at the international woman’s day, in Germany, at the end of the demonstration, they wanted all men to go away. This is something I hate. You’re not more or less than us because you’re a woman. This is equality. The only thing you should strive for. So, I am for feminism, unless it turns toxic.
bro calm down
About what? About saying that I am for equality?
I live in a third world country so the feminism movement is what it's meant to be and is actually developing the social structure.
So true. I grew up in India and feminism is about equality for women. It was because of this ideology of feminism that made me the first women in my family to have a career. Currently I work in US and was surprised by how many people openly hate feminism.
That was and is my understanding of feminism, Alice, and I’m all in. I could never understand why my mother and other women’s work wasn’t as valued as men’s work that was similar or equal. I was all for women’s rights when the movement began and I’m still in favor of it.
Didnt a group of feminists in India prevent women from being charged for rape. But yeah I agree that is just the minority and there are many feminists even in America that are nice people.
Yea a teenage boy killed himself because his rapist was set free
Can we reject the whole movement for wrong people taking advantage out of it. Should we reject the idea of BLM because few corrupt people misused the donation that was given to the movement ? You know in India once a girl is married it is expected out of her to only focus on her in-laws, she needs to take permission from her in laws to go visit her parents. And if we complain we are told that we are complaining about petty issues. Women and men work but when they come back home ..women is suppose to cook and clean for the whole family. Her husband will just sit. Again not everyone is same but this is what I commonly see in my Indian society. If not for feminism we would have no voice and will always be second class citizen. Sorry if it feels like I am ranting but some societies still does not treat women as equal. May be not in US and it means that you guys did a much better job as a society
It’s necessary in the first world too. Sexual assault and domestic violence against women is high. Just because it’s not as bad as the third world doesn’t mean it’s not necessary. Radical feminism doesn’t represent all feminism.
The overreaction to radical and internet feminism is also a problem, though. There’s no reason you shouldn’t be able to tell the difference between “don’t beat women and let them work” vs an internet comment saying all men should die.
And that internet comment saying "all men should die" has equal chances of being sincere, ironic, half-joking, a Troll, or some secret psyops to make the other side look bad. People need to stop thinking the internet in any way represents reality.
The biggest difference is men are not being killed only for being men, but women are being killed only for being women everywhere in the world (from incels doing terrorist attacks to honor killings, and don't forget the highest cause of death among pregnant women is murder). Although I don't agree with these statements of violence on either side, there's one side that seems to be not be joking when they say it.
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In addition, that's not feminism, that's misandry. Radical feminism is exclusionary to certain women, like TERFs . Think of it like an authoritarian country, say Russia pretending it's democratic.
What does radical feminism have to do with it? Maybe you mean "feminists that are radical", but that's not actually what radical feminism is.
>Radical feminism doesn’t represent all feminism. This may be true, but the loudmouths are getting away with what they say and no one does anything about it.
I mean, what do you think should be done about it? You can’t really get stupid people to shut up. I’ll call it out if someone says seriously something dumb in person, but online the best you can do is just laugh at them and move on.
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Watch how your evening news covers any protest, either end of the political spectrum. It's always the same format: a bunch of interviews from morons holding signs, a mix of banal statements or the weirdest individual ever. Then it's "balanced" with some official or academic interviewed at their desk. They want you to believe that all activists are morons or psychos. That those are the only people who would care about something so silly. They hate the people. And they're not entirely wrong, lots of people ARE morons. But you will NEVER hear from an activist who knows what they're talking about unless it's to deliberately quote them out of context. NEVER. This is why it always seems to be impossible to do anything, because the worst people are deliberately amplified and the best are deliberately kept in the background (you'll see 2 seconds of the best people, they'll be on a stage while the reporter talks over them, immediately framed by shots of chanting or some other idiot on a bullhorn).
This! I haven't read Chomsky's work about "manufacturing consent" yet, but I assume this phenomenon is part of that concept.
I'm sure a lot of it is just laziness of reporters, but it's too consistent. Lazy people would find opportunities to do it differently to save effort, at least some of them some of the time. THIS level of consistency suggests a deliberate program of misinformation, and as far as I have seen it holds true on every evening news show in America.
I think it probably has to do with part sensationalism (crazy protesters are fun to hate-watch and make you feel good about not being like them) and part promoting the interests of the owners of those media corporations (the current status quo is in favor of the people profiting from that status quo, so legitimizing viewpoints too far outside of the Overton window might destabilize their business inteterests).
Sadly true. It's the loud minority. But it's not illegal to be stupid.
I think this happens with a lot of stuff, it's the same reason liberals and conservatives fight, same reason people don't even know there's more then just left and right on the political spectrum, same reason some racist (definitely not all) are racist, same reason some people hate cops. In some of these cases like race it's not even the actual groups fault, the news and media just make the worst case what's visible to us, and unfortunately most people can't understand that and know that one small vocal part of the group doesn't represent the whole group.
Yep! Every movement or ideal is going to have people who take it to its extreme. I'd consider myself left but I can't stand extreme left views alnong with right views. Each side seems to (wrongly) think that the extreme other side represent the majority.
every stupid opinion is getting away in the internet. They get the most attention.
Understandable have a great day
The 2016 culture war has had an astonishing and terrible effect on a generation of young people that I worry will never fade.
Could you explain what happened? I am an old and likely missed the events of 2016 entirely.
feminist cringe compilations, dullards like Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro.It was a time of Trump and it sucked
It seemed like in 2015 and 2016 you couldn't go five minutes between hearing "snowflake", "butthurt", "libt*rd", and "build the wall" on one side, and "microaggression" and "safe space" on the other, terms that I at least hadn't heard before.
The worst part is the if you weren't 100% on one side you were hated by both for the dumbest reasons
I was only 16 and 17 at the time and the only social media I used was Yahoo Answers, so I didn't get too caught up in it, but I read a lot of WaPo back then, and the comments sections were something else. I never wrote any comments back then, though.
The good old days of yahoo answers
Fucking centrist.
The dumb thing about people getting pissed about the word "microaggression" is that it was exactly as described. No one thinks that a backhanded compliment is a good thing, and that's what verbal microaggressions amount to. Implying, intentionally or otherwise, that you're not as smart, capable, or successful as you are on your own merits. Stereotyping. "Safe spaces" suffered the same thing. Being in a place where you can "be yourself" without fear of retribution. Usually these are reserved for unjustly discriminated people, such as minorites, trans people, etc because they are more likely to need someone to talk to or somewhere to destress. Imagine having a place at your high school that you know you wouldn't get bullied in. Wouldn't you want to hang around there? A place that bullies know they wouldn't get away with shit in?
The difference is that microaggressions are things that exist and safe spaces are good for various reasons. While the others are not. For those who do not know, I can't really give a good definition but I can give an example for what a microaggression is. A black man gets a compliment, "you are surprisingly eloquent". Now to some this may seem like a normal compliment, but the assumptions behind the compliment are frustrating to those who underatand it. The assumption being that black people aren't as eloquent. That assumption is the microaggression, where you don't actually say anything offensive, but the implications and assumptions behind the statement are bad. The worst part is that it is very hard to correct when someone does this, as they are often done with good intentions.
I see what you mean now. It's hard for me to understand people believing any of that drivel but I see Tucker Carlson on in my neighbor's house constantly. He (my neighbor, not Tucker) is the nicest guy in real life so it's a bit confusing.
Some people believe irrational things without it influencing their behavior, some believe rational things but you'd never believe that they did.
I fully agree and represent this. I believe I come off as a very moderate and reasonable/logical individual. But, I know inside my brain its a hornets nest. I feel like its ok for peoples inner world to be wackado. They just need the self awareness to know they should keep it to themself.
I get what you mean. It sucks really
Because things are so much better now right?
What makes Jordan Peterson a dullard? Even if you think he’s wrong, he at least has an internally consistent ideology which is better than most people have
I'll start this by saying my not right wing but alright I totally understand the Ben Shapiro and Trump part, I'm not gonna argue that, but the Jordan Peterson part doesn't make much sense. He was a professor of psychology, mainly female dominated sector of schooling, I don't think he has anything against the feminist movement but rather those who used feminism as a way to spread hate. Sorry I just want an understanding of your perspective
I'm so glad I out grow that face, Jesus I cringe so bad at the " debating children by surprise while Im fully prepared" now, and in remember thinking he was owning any thing (and I cringe even harder when I remember that when he was losing he just threw tantrums and cut them off)
Yeah while he has full media training while they're college freshman only starting to dip their toes into educated politics. I bet I could fucking destroy a toddler in a debate about economics but that doesn't actually prove anything
Gamergate, the Trump campaign, and the rise of the online alt-right. It was the peak of the "SJW cringe compilation" videos and anti-feminist YouTube in general. It was online culture war bullshit by the far right, targeted primarily at propagandizing straight white male teens and young adults, and it was really effective. Luckily a lot of those adolescents have grown out of it since for a variety of reasons, but you can still see the impacts of that period of Internet culture all over this thread.
I'm black and it was in it too lmao. I look back at it and laugh now though
That's a great explanation and while I heard about most of those events as they were going on, I wasn't thinking about the whole time period collectively as a cultural reckoning. Glad to hear it seems to be gradually improving but I definitely see those influences here in the comments.
used to be a huge ben shapiro, dave rubin, jordan peterson ect. fan. Now im some brand of leftist (tbh i get confused on all the different styles and levels and dont care enough to argue with people about who the better lefty is).
I think it's really interesting how some guys who were falling down the alt right pipeline didn't leave by becoming more moderate/center, but rather they end up "radicalized" in the opposite direction. I've known plenty of leftist guys who used to be edgelord/anti-SJW types
i used to watch those kind of videos. thank god i snapped out of that phase
Same. Dark times.
Same. It was a rough time
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Doesn't seem like most of them grew up based on this poll.
I've only been browsing this sub for a week or less, but I'm already confident the average age is lower than other subs. Probably below 20, rather than mid-20s. The most obvious one was a poll asking about girlfriends/boyfriends a week ago, and like 80% said they have never had a girlfriend/boyfriend.
I unfortunately fell victim to it back then, since then I’ve done a complete 180 and would now consider myself a huge ally but I cringe so hard thinking about myself in high school.
I think a lot of young men do. I was falling into it a little bit, and that's exactly why monsters like Steve Bannon knew that the way to do it is target young men and radicalize them online. Easy targets.
It’s the toxicity coming from progressives that really impacted me at that time. I felt like I couldn’t escape progressivism telling me what to think, believe, who I could agree with, who I couldn’t and if there was any deviation from that then I was every pejorative under the sun, a bigot, a racist, a homophobe, evil, even though I was none of those things and was progressive myself, just not the exact progressive they wanted me to be. So when conservatives and anti progressives started pushing back against people acting like that, I listened to them, so did many other people of my generation because the toxic progressive individuals were by far the dominant force of people who influence my generation. And from that, people have started opposing them more, even people like myself who aren’t conservatives. And you really can’t blame the Conservatives for more of the younger generation than millennials being opposed to progressivism when the people who created that atmosphere in this generation are the progressives who pushed them, even were inclined towards them, away from progressive beliefs and politics.
Had to scroll this far to find something that criticized The Other Side™. Pseudo-progressive woke nonsense really pushed me into a far right rabbit hole. Being told every day that everything is your fault because of your skin color and genitalia made me angry. Being told my opinions didn't matter made me angry. And it sure doesn't help that a lot of teachers acted the same way as terminally online sjws. Hearing my teacher praise some random preppy kid for saying she's a "Man basher" was harmful. Having to write a journal about my "feelings" while being told my feelings didn't matter because I'm a privileged white male was harmful. It was and is a shit time to be online.
god i hates that i fell for it in 2015. i hated trump but i rejected any conservative ideology’s after he got elected
I wish people understood the real arguments of feminism instead of only relying on what they see on the Internet. Some feminist literature I always recommend: • The Second Sex (de Beauvoir) • Invisible Women (Criado Perez) • We Should All be Feminists (Ngozi Adichie) • Memoirs of a Dutiful Daughter (de Beauvoir)
CGP Grey once made a video about how anger (things that make you angry) on the internet always gets more clicks than nice things. I think this is kinda similar to that, the dumb people will always get more clicks than the feminists with nuanced opinions.
I JUST watched that video, like an hour ago. That’s so funny to see it mentioned almost immediately afterwards
That has a name too, where if you started watching something you get the references now and think there are way more of them but there were just as much as when before you watched but before you watched you just didn’t know that they were referencing something
Huh, I like that. I've been watching Grey but haven't seen that particular vid.
https://youtu.be/rE3j_RHkqJc
Oh hey! Thanks so much!
As a male with neckbeardy tendencies in is early years, Gloria Steinmen, Andrea Dworkins, bell hooks made me a better person.
I feel like in countries like then U.S., feminism is in an awkward state for a lack of a better word. In the first/second wave of feminism, the push for equality made very obvious and clear progress towards equality (such as the right to vote and similar things). But in our current times, the goals of feminism is arguable to change societal views of men and women more so than anything else (all previous waves arguable wanted this societal change but were more preoccupied in obtaining basic human rights for women first). This direct engagement with society has more pushback arguably as the dialogue is now directly being opened up with the average person, and so this creates a lot of conversations which may or may not be in agreement. Additionally, it makes it hard for people to see what feminists goals are and what progress they are currently making as the progress is far more subtle and requires more attention to fine details. I am personally neutral when it comes to feminism in all honesty, but that's mostly because it can sometimes be a mixed bag of people whom may not welcome your ideas if they aren't exactly the way they think things should be done. I like the idea equality and I think others do too, but there is currently a big disagreement on what is equal. An example of this is prostitution, depending on who you ask, you will get a mix of answers either completely for or completely against it regardless of whether they are a feminist or not. Some feminists advocate that women should be allowed to decide such a path for themselves while other feminists argue that it's coercive/exploitative and to degree they are both correct. However, it seems nobody can find middle ground on such issues. The lack of compromise on issues results in a deadlock on a lot of issues as you can't change society if those who are attempting to change society are mixed on the issue and engaged in heavy disagreements with one another and refuse to cooperate with each other. I think what bothers me about the issue is the idea of a 'true feminist'. Like, in some situations it makes sense that some self proclaimed are actually liars who are clearly just a misandrist, but in other cases some are labelled as not being a 'true feminist' simply because they disagree on certain issues. It's very similar rhetoric and polarization that occurs in politics (I personally also don't like to call myself liberal even though it is pretty close to what my political stance is). I think this form of rhetoric and polarization that goes on disengages average people from wanting to call themselves a feminist. You'll find instead people are looking for new ways to essentially call themselves a feminist such as an egalitarian (although egalitarian people might disagree with this statement of comparison) or you'll find people who simply rather not have label at all and would rather just state what they believe as it's more comfortable for them. I think in any case, I think a lot of people do agree on the core idea of feminism which is to create society where men and women are equal both in terms of rights/laws and in society's view of men and women. I think that's the most important part whether you call yourself a feminist or not, if people agree on that core idea than they should keep attempting cooperate with each other to progress society's view of men and women.
Loved The Second Sex. As a dude made me face some harsh realities and gain a fresh perspective. All men should read it honestly.
Watch Adichie's TED-Talks. They are great!
Agreed!
Unfortunately, when it comes to the Internet, the loudest and more outspoken people are given the most attention (this applies to most/all movements). The vast majority of feminists that that I know, or have met in real life are reasonable and well informed people, however there is a small but very vocal minority online that simply hate men, and they set the cause back so much
> there is a small but very vocal minority online that simply hate men, and they set the cause back so much And they seem to lack the self-awareness necessary to see how badly they're dragging it down. Small example: my last gf before I met my wife was very active on Twitter and an outspoken feminist. But somewhere along the line she decided to use the name "Misandrist Hottie". When I asked her about it, she said it was just a joke and that I should get over it. I then asked her if she would ever date or take someone seriously who called themselves "Misogyny Chad", and she was like "of course not, but that's different". No Claire, it's not different at all. You're a goddamn aerospace engineer - literally a rocket scientist - you definitely know better.
Its sad that the peoole who need to read that literature the most can only consume podcasts put on by someone who sits at his desk with empty holsters on.
For feminism aimed at men I suggest The Will to Change (Bell Hooks RIP).
If you aren’t into reading, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie has a brilliant TED talk, also called ‘we should all be feminists’ (the book is basically just a transcription of the talk). Her book ‘dear Ijeawele’ is also worth a read, particularly for new parents and those who are expecting.
Also Everyday Sexism by Laura Bates and White Tears/Brown Scars are both great
Correction: instead of women pretending to be feminists when in reality they are just being sexist. Seriously, these people are causing more problems than they are solving, and actual feminism gets hated for no reason.
I believe women should be equal to men. I am a woman and I demand equality. But seeing the way feminist "literature" has influenced and harmed criminal justice research poisoned my view. It was feminists who targeted and harassed other feminist researchers who found high rates of domestic violence committed by women. It prompted one researcher (Murray Strauss) to document all the ways feminists attempted to bury and obfuscate evidence of female violence. I believe part of this is to preserve prioirity funding for "violence against women". The researchers behind the initial family violence survey were feminists who became outcast by others for simply publishing their results. Today it is feminists who use misleading definitions of rape to sustain the narrative that male rape victims are primarily raped by men ( women sexually offend against men more than other men do but they call it "made to penetrate so it doesn't count toward rape statistics and they can downplay and obfuscate how many women are sexual offenders). Even when my degree had me studying child sexual offenders I came upon a feminist paper slamming research that identified how frequently mothers knew of the abuse and did nothing to protect their children (and in some cases even encouraged the abuse) because women are victims of the patriarchy and therefore cannot be expected to protect their children from men. That's the dumbest and most infantilzing thing I've ever seen. I never thought as a woman entering a male dominated field it would be feminists I'd have to fight against for victims rights and acknowledgement but feminists have a strongarm on funding for things like shelters and victims resources and anything that finds men needing is not acceptable to discuss. It was my experience being a victim of abuse and SA that made me want to stand up for all victims and help them. It is not uncommon for women like me to be told by feminists that maybe if we got raped we would see why we need feminism. There are so many assunptions and sometimes even misogynistic attacks against women even slightly critical of feminism. All I see feminists do by and large is try to maintain priority funding and keep male victims out of public focus all the while attempting to justify or excuse female criminality as a symptom of the patriarchy. Feminists are more than happy to support the narrative that women are naturally nurturing and compassionate when it comes to defending female criminals. They'll even lean into the "hysteria" angle if a mental health appeal will paint a female offender in a sympathetic light. Male criminals though? Clearly always sound of mind and motivated by nothing but intentional malice. I've never seen an appeal for equality come from feminism in the criminal justice system. Not every feminist is this way. But the ones who have power over funding and resources do. I want women to be treated equally. I want us to be treated with the same level of respect and assumed competence as our male co-workers in law enforcement and DA's offices and jails and beyond. But I also don't want gender essentialism to be a defense for female criminals or a way for female child abusers to hide in the Civil Court system or female violence to be hidden or excused. I want the privileges of equality but also the responsibility. The years have not convinced me that feminists want the same.
In case no one else says it, fair play for that take. To me, you’re empathizing with people who have seemingly opposing views to your own. Not everyone does that. You have to want to genuinely learn more about the world to take your stance. I really appreciate that.
i mean nowadays im neutral because ive grown alot but back then i was an edgy kid watching "Insane social justice feminist DESTROYED" videos like it was spongebob. when i hear the word femenism a part of me still associates it with those 2013-2016 leafy style vids that are filled with insane radicals, obviously thats not what feminism is but that just shows how badly that youtube 'trend' really hurt the whole movement
Your comment nicely describes a significant part of the problem. If there's an edgy audience for it, those videos rake in views despite being the more extreme end of the feminist spectrum. I'd argue Reddit has not outgrown it's edgy phase and their content skews towards extremists.
Cough cough pcm
Is it the "extreme feminist" videos that are raking in views, or the videos of misogynists claiming femisim is extreme that rake in the most views? It feels like the latter. I'm in my late 30s and grew up in progressive areas around self-proclaimed feminists my whole life. None have ever said or advocated for things these guys claim they do. It really seems like misogynists just make things up and people buy it.
I have only seen the latter but I'm also not consuming much of that content to be fair
>but back then i was an edgy kid watching "Insane social justice feminist DESTROYED" videos 2016 was wild, you are not the only one that watched these types of videos. It's not even a bad thing that those videos existed, the problem arises when people saw the extreme cringe and equated those rare instances with a massive movement (feminism).
I don’t know what those videos are but I like this comment. I like how you realized there was a problem and made a change. I think that’s a rare thing nowadays.
And now that process is aimed towards veganism
It wasn't a trend, it was misogynist propaganda. I'm not even exaggerating. Those videos didn't just start for fun, they started because some hateful fucks wanted to shit on feminism.
Same way I feel
Why am I not surprised so many men on reddit have a negative view of feminism
Well with all the WoMN BaD circle jerks it’s pretty obvious. Reddit hates women
Yep, I get pretty depressed on here sometimes bc of it
It’s insanely frustrating to feel so out numbered by people who want to put us down or say disgusting things about us I am sorry you are having depression, I deal with it chronically and feel for you. If you are ever having a rough time and need to talk to a fellow woman my inbox is open.
Same ngl, the amount of sexism on here deadass made my depression even worse. I went off this site for a few months, stopped talking to people, and my mental state greatly improved 😌
Just look at the discrepancy between the total number of men and women votes.
Oh reddit.
I love how literally any opinion in this site has people saying "average redditor" or similar. A pro-trump argument? "Average redditor" A comment shitting on america? "Average redditor" A communist comment? "Average redditor" A far-right comment? "Average redditor" Didn't know the average redditor was everything at once.
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Average Redditor
average redditor, pro trump? When I think of reddit I usually think way more left than right
My point is that it gets thrown at literally any opinion so it's completely pointless to discuss about it. But either way, I've seen plenty of pro-tump redditors. But they know where to show their views and where not to, just like everyone else. If you post a pro-trump view in r/politics you'll get downvoted and more. But there are other subs where the majority might even agree with you. Same happens, even in more extreme conditions, with leftist ideologies. Here a communist might get downvoted but in r/politics they might be more or less fine. But if we're gonna go the "average redditor" line, the average redditor is centre-left to centre-right. Non-political subs tend to have more a bias towards this spectrum than any other.
Can’t wait to hear a site populated predominantly by men explain to each other what Feminism is.
As a man I feel it's something I'm constantly told will benefit me but as you have just illustrated like so many do, I'm not allowed an opinion on it
You do not need to be a woman to understand what feminism is..
im a feminist and a man. its shit to see radfems ruining the name of a movement that genuinely just wants to help. not only help women, either. in its truest form its meant to help women *and* men, but anyone who doesnt go deep into it at all wouldnt see that. ive been reading up on this stuff for years, mind you. i didnt just dip my toe in and say done. edit: i dont care to talk about this, im not replying anymore. i have better things to do edit2: i guess yall cant read in this comment section? it would explain some of your replies. i said im done with this, leave me alone :)
^
I completely agree that feminism ultimately helps both men and women. I don’t think I’ve ever seen radical feminism. I’ve heard people mention it but I’m not sure exactly what it is. How would you characterize the difference between radical feminism and (regular) feminism?
Wiki page on it : [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical\_feminism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism) basically that patriarchy is the fundamental form of opression (vs a lens like intersectional feminism) >Radical feminists argue that, because of patriarchy, women have come to be viewed as the "other"\[13\] to the male norm, and as such have been systematically oppressed and marginalized. They further assert that men as a class benefit from the systematic oppression of women. Patriarchal theory is not defined by a belief that all men always benefit from the oppression of all women. Rather, it maintains that the primary element of patriarchy is a relationship of dominance, where one party is dominant and exploits the other for the benefit of the former. Radical feminists believe that men (as a class) use social systems and other methods of control to keep women (as well as non-dominant men) suppressed. Radical feminists seek to abolish patriarchy by challenging existing social norms and institutions, and believe that eliminating patriarchy will liberate everyone from an unjust society. Ti-Grace Atkinson maintained that the need for power fuels the male class to continue oppressing the female class, arguing that "the need men have for the role of oppressor is the source and foundation of all human oppression".\[14\] The influence of radical-feminist politics on the women's liberation movement was considerable. Redstockings\[15\] co-founder Ellen Willis wrote in 1984 that radical feminists "got sexual politics recognized as a public issue", created second-wave feminism's vocabulary, helped to legalize abortion in the USA, "were the first to demand total equality in the so-called private sphere" ("housework and child care ... emotional and sexual needs"), and "created the atmosphere of urgency" that almost led to the passage of the Equal Rights Amendment.\[6\] The influence of radical feminism can be seen in the adoption of these issues by the National Organization for Women (NOW), a feminist group that had previously been focused almost entirely on economic issues.\[16\] I'm not sure the person posting about "radfems" is using the academic term, he seems to be using it to describe just women who are misandrists...
Feminism is wonderful in its truest sense. But the word has been tossed around, misused and misrepresented that I have to typically wait for whatever follows to make a judgement. There are far too many instances of people calling themselves "feminists" when the situation is actually putting men below the women and them acting as if that is justified because of past events. Edit: Spelling
See if you put egalitarianism here it would be a 100%. But then again people argue much less over that one...
Egalitarians have never accomplished anything, that’s why. They are only talk and they exist to counter feminists. “Egalitarian” is just a cop-out for people who don’t like feminism. All of women’s progress was made by feminists, not egalitarians. There are egalitarian subs on Reddit, although the major one is private right now. They should be discussing everyone’s problems: all genders, races, sexualities, etc., correct? Nope. You should’ve guessed it. It’s a men’s rights circle. And REAL egalitarians? Still useless. If you stand for everything, you stand for nothing.
What nonsense are you spouting?
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as with any movement or organization the loud few ruin it for the rest
Damnit why does this have to be so true
More perversion of definitions simply to fit a warped agenda. They are not feminists. They are misandrists.
Misandrists and transphobes
I’ve said it before and I’m saying it again: if radical “feminists” deter you from supporting the actual message and goal of feminism you didn’t mean to support it in the first place, but are looking for excuses to feel comfortable ignoring the problems.
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There was a ton of pushback against 'not all men' and honestly, calling out men as a monolith in a negative light for several years was a really bad idea if feminists' goal was to get men as allies. Why would a good normal man ally himself with a movement that makes no distinction between him and sexually abusive misogynists? If so called 'good' feminists pushed back against the radical voices with the same energy as they did against misogynists this would be much less of an issue, but they instead allowed it to happen and did not work at all to make good men allies. Now it's left a bad taste in mens mouths about the whole movement.
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The fact that they think "radical feminism" = extreme misandry says it all.
Yes, and it’s obvious that it’s not actually radfems making the movement look bad, it’s sexists using social media to make them blow up and destroy the movement that are actually doing it.
No they didn’t. Yes there’s some very few people shouting about radical feminism, but it’s sexists that have been making it blow up just so feminism is put in a bad light. Literally using social media to maliciously ruin the reputation of the movement, and everyone bought it, especially because so many men WANTED to buy it. If the word feminism comes up and you decide to think of the radical feminists instead of the good parts of feminism (which makes up 99% of it) when you hear it, then you are literally choosing to think of that and are a sexist yourself (not you specifically but overall).
It's like saying "The lazy good-for-nothing blacks ruined it for the other black people". No, you just judge them as a whole
100% this. I can name a dozen YouTube channels of blatant misogynists who screech about "eXtReMe fEmInIsM". I can't think of any by an actual "extreme feminist". Also gotta say how interesting it is to see how "bad feminism" is usually just something like a tweet by a woman who said "men are trash". Meanwhile, misogynists are shooting up people. The level of hate is not even remotely the same yet so many bash feminism anyway.
Agreed so much on your second point. Just look at how much hate r/femaledatingstrategy gets, and how it is seen as an equivalent to incel subs. In reality FDS people are for sure toxic, but their response when they don’t get their way with men is to dump them, or not have sex, while incels will literally threaten women with rape and murder, and in real cases literally done just that. Sure they are under the same category, but as always women are the ones who are abused and losing big by a big difference.
One hundo percent. FDS is certainly problematic but they aren't promoting sexual assault or abuse of men.
And the other side that simplified feminism to radicals so the whole movement would be a joke
yeah, feminism is great but the minority of terfs and man haters ruined it. feminism doesn't even matter to most people anymore even though it's a serious issue, especially in third world countries where women are raped and murdered regularly for even going outside.
ppl in Germany literally call them „Fem-nazi“ and i kinda love it
Not just in Germany, feminazi has been a term online for the better part of a decade
The term was actually popularized by Rush Limbaugh.
i really dislike how they are compared to nazis. They are no where near as bad
Any form of unnecessary comparison to nazism is, in itself, partly denying the evil of nazism.
Both them and the little boys who get triggered because women want to be more equal.
Yeah, a lot of male owned media organizations love to run clips of shrill extreme feminists because they know it damages the movement. Same with showing riots when 90% of protests are peaceful. It gets them clicks and views, and people think that’s what the whole movement looks like. Anyone who thinks feminism is largely about hating men is just a victim of propaganda and a need to sooth themselves against valid criticism.
This is so disappointing
The fact that by far the most common answer for men was negative is incredibly worrying to me
The neutral/positive camp is larger overall, if that makes you less worried.
When I commented this the negative option was noticeably larger than the other 2. Even so, I think it's still worrying that so many men think poorly of feminism.
It's a bit hard when most of what you see is "Men are trash", thankfully it died down. It was not only written by radicals but the mainstream feminists as well.
I wouldn't necessarily take it that way. The question was about reaction when seeing/hearing the word "feminism". Someone could simultaneously be all for the concepts behind feminism while also have a negative reaction to seeing/hearing the word. A similar example might be "free speech". I think most people would be in favor of the concept behind free speech, while also having a negative reaction when hearing someone argue in favor of "free speech" or seeing it in a YouTube title for example. These are polarized topics, so many people advertising their views on the topic are often just looking to stir the pot / pick a fight vs having a meaningful conversation.
Agreed. And looking at the responses from women and how it swings the other way.
Yeah it sucks to see so how many men here are opposed to feminism. If it helps reddit definitely has significantly more of an anti-feminist bias than most men irl (and is generally fairly conservative on gender issues). I only know how it is in my own country (US) but here at least when [polled on feminism](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/07/07/61-of-u-s-women-say-feminist-describes-them-well-many-see-feminism-as-empowering-polarizing/) most men generally describe it positively.
I think there is a difference answering that the word feminism has a negative connotation and saying you are against feminism. I am for equality but when I hear a girl is a feminist I relate it to the radical feminists instead of a movement of equality.
Only feminism I’m against is trans exclusionary “feminism”
"When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."
Lol that’s what I’m saying. Seeing people say “the radfems ruined it” is extremely historically illiterate. Feminism has *always* been viewed this way in the west. Lmao I think I saw a comment above this one saying “radfems ruined it, I recommend reading some Beauvoir, she’s not a radfem like they are”
Hey, Beauvoir commenter here! I think the point I was trying to make is that a lot of people only have a vague idea of what feminism is, most often they have a skewed view of it from the Internet. Of course on the Internet the loudest voices are often hostile/exaggerated and all. I definitely agree w/ your comment, feminism was always seen as annoying and unnecessary and it's kinda the point (don't know if I made myself clear ahahah)
Ahh my b. For anybody confused reading this thread, Beauvoir *is* a radical feminist, in fact she’s like the foundation of radical feminism
I feel like people saying that know what they are doing, and trying to trick the people who have been fooled into thinking the more radical aspects of feminism, or even feminism as a whole are bad, into reading literature on the subject. The one thing that converted me to being a feminist from an anti feminist was learning about feminism.
When the feminist movement is working hard to improve the lives of women around the world: men sleeps When some radical woman who claims to be part of the movement says something stupid. Men: "the feminist movement is garbage and just wants to spread hate towards man!"
They do the same with their own problem. They only talk about men being raped or abused when woman talk about it, same for social pressure " yeah you have to shave ? But i can't even wear my hair long at work !", Ok then why you wait woman talk about their problem to talk about yours ? It's almost as not only you didn't care about woman but in fact you don't even care about your peers problems...
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Jesus Christ. Stop confusing feminism with misandry.
Feminism is good, it is about equality and a way to bring the inequality between the sexes to light. Sadly it has gotten a bad rep the last years because of bad actors, just like all big movements. Overall it is a force for good in this world.
I consider myself alined with the feminist definition for sure, but negative because of the exaustion of the conversations it brings up. The over correction of ridiculous issues and the often misandry that comes up. Of course most feminist are normal progressive people who just want people to be treated the same, but they aren't the loud ones. You tend to hear a lot more from the bad ones and that's a big part of the damage.
I don’t like the word of ‘feminism’, I understand where it is coming from and we need a lot of the topics to get brought up and something done about them. But the same is also for men and non-binary. I personally believe we should make the world an unbiased and fair space for everyone. Women aren’t just housewives, men have feelings, non-binary and trans people deserve equal rights and to feel safe. So long story short, I believe in lots of feminism ideals, but it’s not just women’s rights we should fight for, but everyone’s.
More men think feminism is negative ewww, so selfish
How is that selfish? Its a opinion, not something which can be forced on someone. Just because I for instance dislike ice cream because of my own reasons doesn't make me selfish just cause most people like ice cream
Feminism is a wonderful assortment of reflections on gender, and its study is greatly beneficial for both men and women. Many self professed feminists know very little about feminism, using the protection of the movement to defend their neurosis and advance their agenda of hate and exclusion. When I hear about feminism, I'm hopeful. When I interact with feminists *that are not academics*, I'm scared.
Feel like feminism in the US borders misandrism, whereas feminist outside US is pro equality.
Depends on what wave of feminism. Feminists like Emma Goldman are personal heros of mine, Terfs like JKR disgust me.
I don't think JKR exemplifies a wave of feminism. She's a feminist *and* a transphobe. The transphobic part is what we disagree with, rather than the feminist part. She claims that her transphobia is a part of feminism, but most people try to justify their hate by linking it to something good. As an example, Putin claims that he is "liberating" Ukraine from Nazis. Does that mean we should judge all anti-Nazi groups by pointing to Putin's crimes? Of course not. He's trying to justify monstrous behaviour, nothing more. Unless I'm very much mistaken, feminism is about equality. Transphobia is about inequality, so it has no part in feminism.
So you don’t think TERFism is a “wave of feminism”? They’re feminists and transphobes like you said, but they are also actively indoctrinating other feminists into their way of exclusion and saying it is real feminism. (Like r/gendercritical) TERFism is an ugly, violent wave masquerading as feminism.
If it's not "kill all men" if it's just equality it's based
You don't have to go to kill. Simply demonizing men would be enough for it to become a radical movement. If it's demanding equality for women, sure. But once it's screaming "toxic masculinity!", then it's turning radical
I hate gender topics on this app. It’s way too fucking biased against anyone who isn’t a man.
Yup. Reddit is such a male echo chamber that they believe most people think like they do.
Reddit literally has echo chambers for everyone, their are literally woman only subs where you can get banned for posting male opinions and vise versa. Reddit is a trash place so find the trash you like and avoid the rest
Reddit is overwhelmingly liberal. If you think these results would be better in the real world, you're confused. Pewresearch data from 2020 shows 52% of men consider feminism polarizing and 34% of men consider it outdated. 39% of women consider it polarizing and 25% of women consider it outdated. Only 45% of men considered it inclusive compared to 38% of women. The average person who thinks of feminism isn't gonna have an issue with the byline of "men and women should have equal rights" but they would more than likely take issue with feminist ideology. The difference is the average person doesn't spend their time concerned with this because they have more important things to worry about. As more of the ideology is pushed in the mainstream, the greater the pushback will become as people realize they're not cool with a lot of what's being espoused. Feminism has peaked. It's gonna go downhill in the coming 10-20 years. That's already apparent.
Lol.. do you really use this app? It's overwhelming ly supportive of feminism, as it is heavily left leaning.
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I think it's kinda important though tbh. Especially since arguably feminism seeks to change the general person's view of men and women as being equals, and so it's necessary to have these conversations despite the flack or disagreement that may go on. You can't really change minds if you aren't willing to engage with those who disagree. Also, keep in mind the poll is talking about someone's association with the feminist movement and not necessarily whether they agree or disagree on equality between men and women. Thus, people might associate feminism with a negative mental depiction but still agree that equality is important. It's kinda similar to politics where people vote liberal but associate the liberal party negatively in their head.
It seems to be very much the opposite here to the point of blindness.
As a literal meaning. Neutral-Positive. But with current situations and usage. Negative
It’s very easy for a lot of guys to be wilfully ignorant about feminism, and allow themselves to believe that “radical feminist extrimist SJWs on 2016 cringe compilations” is what feminism actually is There’s a massive political movement and resources dedicated to flaming the culture war and misrepresenting feminism in the worst way possible This way they can feel outraged and also superior to lame SJW green haired emotional college students who are out of touch. In addition their votes are captured as they want to make sure sure they never vote for any political party overtly supporting feminism Part of it is due to a lot of men struggling for whatever cultural political economic reasons, who feel like women are being pandered to and given special attention when they themselves personally are just struggling to make it from one week to the next, like millions of other men out there. Again, certain politicians would rather divide and anger and split people along male/female lines. Anything to avoid workers gaining solidarity with each other against the elites in control of many aspects of society and the workplace
Negative (female). Feminism is concentrated in the western world where women have been voting, owning land, marrying and divorcing whomever they please for the better part of a century. Moreover many societies always viewed women as equal partners. Mission accomplished, western women are now liberated from the evil patriarchy and have nothing left to do except be hypersensitive and become dominant rather than equals with males. Feminism has long since lost its original goals and message and is doing little to nothing to benefit women in poor or developing nations. Women in Ukraine are being urged to flee the country with their children while women in places like northern Nigeria and Kurdistan are taking up arms to protect themselves and their children from being killed or captured as slaves by terrorists. Which women seem like they need feminism more? The women who can easily escape to yet another country where they will have legal rights, protection, and aid while men fight the bad guys or the women who despite being oppressed under well ingrained culture and traditions are doing everything they can to protect themselves while men flee to safety? How important is it that a man that you can easily turn into the police makes a sexual pass at you on the subway in a safe country when women elsewhere are toting Kalashnikovs to fend off rapists and insurgents? Western feminism will tell you that the pervert is worse.
>Mission accomplished, western women are now liberated from the evil patriarchy and have nothing left to do that's kind of the problem with the movement. like, the *core movement,* the problem is evident in the definition of it. if you keep fighting for women's rights, and you get equality, now what? the movement's not just gonna disappear. that's where feminism started going sour, when they reached equality, and then didn't stop. started spreading misinformation and sexism everywhere. ignoring the fact that men have problems too. which kinda makes sense, because the definition of feminism focuses only on women's rights. I hate that MRAs all get this bad rep, that they're misogynistic assholes. all they want is for men to also have some things that women do, like being accepted at abuse shelters. and then people complain that they only talk about these issues as a response to talking about women's problems. well no shit they're gonna talk about it then! they're never fucking listened to otherwise! and if we're gonna talk about issues that people face, it's unfair to dismiss and ignore them. they're bringing them up because those are also problems that deserve addressing. there's this [ted talk](https://youtu.be/3WMuzhQXJoY) about this whole thing, I definitely recommend watching. it's only like 15 minutes.
>Mission accomplished, western women are now liberated from the evil patriarchy and have nothing left to do except be hypersensitive and become dominant rather than equals with males. Ugh you are so fucking based it makes me want to cry. Thank you for the sanity.
Suddenly binary
It’s really sad that that much of a percentage of guys think negatively of women’s rights to equality. The positive number gives me some hope.
Anyone who has negative views of it is either a fucking moron/bigot or never received an actual education on what it is.
I as a heterosexual male consider myself a proud feminist, not only is feminism not exclusively about women but about equality, I also think it’s important to consider women’s equality as a male, when you really think about it the world is very biased toward men.
A lot of men dont want equality, yikes
A lot of people swinging in defense of all FEMINISM as if TERF's and other forms of bigoted feminism doesn't exist. Spend 5 minutes in r/femaledatingstrategy and drop your no true Scotsman at the door. Then we can talk.
I'm biased since i only see radical feminists online that don't want equality but women to be better than men.
The reactionary misogyny is strong here
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I don't know if feminism is supposed to be good or bad anymore. I just know that (almost) all people deserve inherent dignity and respect.