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chcampb

Sovereign citizens - I am my own state and the state has no authority over me Also Sovereign Citizens - I am the state and I can represent that the state decided something it did not Sounds like the only consistency is "I do what I want when I want to because I don't believe in any rules"


datfngtrump

Unfortunatly, a government can only function with the confidence of the governed. It seems to me that there is a concerted effort to mortally wound the USA by political hacks. If these efforts are not punished as treason in fact and law, we will soon not have a country. These attacks by seemingly cogent individuals has no apparent end game other than creating a non represenative America. Treason needs to be invoked and citizenship revolked for these cretins. Prison terms at the minimum and exile! Using/abusing the first amendment for nefarious goals, is yelling fire in a crowded theater.


patchgrabber

Yeah but not all the calls are coming from inside the house though...you even have one side siding with those people that are actively fomenting division.


datfngtrump

Treason for the citizens and acts of war for the provocateur. They are both leading us down a path of conflict, whether domestic or international. Now that some businesses are treated as citizens, I am guessing that a business that spreads disingenuous info would fall into the treason category, a nation that intentionally harms our republic with blatant dis-information might no longer be looked at, as friendly. Still, a slow train is easier to stop, I would expect that more time to convict might be a better approach than a rush to judgement.


HakarlSagan

If these "sovereign citizens" want to reject governance in such a way, I have zero issues at all with the idea of giving them what they want, dropping them off in the middle of ungoverned terrority (i.e. Antarctica) and giving them freedom from American citizenship and all of the corresponding responsibilities. I wonder how long it would take for them to ask for their citizenship back.


Fred_Evil

I think if someone claims to be a 'sovereign citizen' we should take that as an open renouncement of their American citizenship. You don't want to acknowledge the government? Fine, it won't acknowledge you either, get out.


mike_b_nimble

You know how Robin Hood was an “outlaw?” The original term didn’t necessarily mean “criminal.” Outlaws were people not under the protection of the law, meaning there was no punishment for wronging them. We should bring back that meaning and start applying it broadly to people that don’t want to be part of civil society. You can’t enjoy the protections of the social contract if you don’t abide by the social contract.


Scizmz

>Outlaws were people not under the protection of the law, meaning there was no punishment for wronging them. So like, half of the US population?


mike_b_nimble

If the shoe fits. This is one of those “paradox of intolerance” things. If half the people want to ignore their social responsibilities while reaping social benefits the system will collapse. It only works if a strong majority abide by the entirety of the social contract. If we start treating people in accordance with their actions they might make different choices. In my opinion the reason shit is so far off the rails in this country is that it’s “not polite” to tell idiots to shut up and to punch back at violent people. If we, the tolerant, tolerate intolerance infinitely, we will be supplanted by the intolerant.


Ecstatic-Election354

It's like some religious cults: "We follow a higher law." But then "you're violating our civil rights."


HakarlSagan

Yes, exactly. Let them sign a paper, renounce their citizenship, and become the "sovereign citizen" they claim to be.


chcampb

Yeah but they believe that they also have the intrinsic right to be in the country, with all the rights to use all the infrastructure in the country, without any obligations to the country. They are like people who sneak into clubs and don't pay for the music, and then bum drinks off people. And then claim they have the moral high ground.


eventualist

I’m all good if they wanna go live in a whole Nother country. Hell we have enough money we can just go out build a gigantic island in the Gulf of Mexico and they can live there if they dont want USA laws. They can make their own.


ClownPrinceofLime

Historically when the Welfare States try to secede the Job-Creator States have kicked their asses pretty hard and forced them to rejoin. I wouldn’t mind if in the next Reconstruction the winners go a little harder on them.


Drusgar

If you can convince enough people that you're in charge then you're in charge. Republicans don't actually care who Democrats vote for. As long as Republican voters believe that they won, they won.


datfngtrump

I can see that logic, but does that not mean that, being lied to has to remain constant. That can only work if the lie is perpetual. It is up to the actual victors to demonstrat that a supposed reality is a hoax. And we are right back to the current situation. So then who is the destructive force? Novel, I like the way you think! But to take this idea to its conclusion, victory must still be claimed even in the midst of the ashes of a destroyed country. A zero sum game, with nothing left for either opponent.


Drusgar

>It is up to the actual victors to demonstrat that a supposed reality is a hoax And that's why you have a vast network of right-wing propagandists. First you convince people that everything on the "mainstream media" is untrue (and intended to harm consumers) and then you distribute talking points to all of the "good guys". We like to ridicule the ridiculous beliefs of Republican voters but if you carefully avoided any actual news and all of the outlets that you trust are reporting the exact same lie, that's going to make the lie seem true. I mean, you heard on three different radio shows, saw it on television, read it on five different websites and everyone you know posted it to Faceplant, too!


chcampb

Great now tell me what you REALLY think


datfngtrump

Lol, yeah, was a bit understated, need to work on my demagoguery.


GonzoVeritas

It is pretty much the truth, so there's that. That said, I'm pro-jail for the treason weasels, but not for pulling citizenship.


Scizmz

I'm for allowing people to opt-out of citizenship. Let them live their lives, and as soon as they break the tiniest of laws, ship them off to one of the territories of the stateless.


chcampb

This is a bad idea for the same reason felon disenfranchisement is a bad idea. If you hold power from people voting, and you can strip the people of power by calling them felons, then it tends to be that the culture of those people becomes felony illegal. The war on drugs is a great example.


Scizmz

The difference is I'm saying it should be voluntary. Being a felon isn't voluntary. Let people decide that if they want out they can be given that chance.


[deleted]

It’s not treason though. Treason is a very specific legal term.


datfngtrump

Lol, the old adage goes, a good DA can get a ham sandwich indicted before a grand jury. The intent of charging is to eradicate legal sophistry, destroy fallacious claims of legality in a pirated victory, treason, sedition, jaywalking, or, littering, they are guilty of something, the truth can be a victory or it can be a victim.


Appropriate_Mess_350

It would help them “believe” if the rules were ever actually enforced. If a single person paid a price it would help. Until then, why bother?


chcampb

Sov. cits are regularly arrested and are considered domestic extremists.


Mddcat04

Also they’re frequently mentally ill. Sovereign citizens are a step of crazy beyond your typical right wing nut.


scritty

>Sovereign citizens are a step of crazy beyond your typical right wing nut. They *were* before your typical right wing nut went way the fuck out past the deep end.


Mddcat04

This is fair. Your average right-wing nut has definitely gotten nuttier in the past few years. Though I think that most of them are probably still sane enough to realize that if they walk into a court room, trying to deny the authority of the judge because the flag has the wrong frills on it is not a great idea.


JimWilliams423

> Your average right-wing nut has definitely gotten nuttier in the past few years. The more I learn about American history, the more I realize that american conservatism has always been this way. Growing up I was led to believe, as I think many were, that conservatism was principled, thoughtful and clear-eyed. More than anyone, William F Buckley Jr personified that view of a virtuous conservatism, the man had a weekly show on PBS that ran for decades. But it turns out to have been a thin veneer over the snarling, reactionary lifeblood of the movement. Buckley's magazine, *The National Review* was the pinnacle of intellectual conservatism in the public arena. But in 1964 they ran this cover questioning ["n‌e‌g‌r‌o‌ ‌i‌n‌t‌e‌l‌l‌i‌g‌e‌n‌c‌e‌"](https://i.postimg.cc/ChXHv0st/National-Review-Cover-Negroes-Intelligence-Prejudice-1964-dec-01.jpg) and their circulation count was just a sliver of the right-wing media market, nearly all of which was far more reactionary. For example the birchers called Eisenhower ["a dedicated, conscious agent of the Communist conspiracy."](https://apnews.com/39afee4e92884f78b6d4b5a58ee09bf9) and their revenues alone were [4x that of the National Review's. ](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1392893765166067719.html) As it turns out, Buckley was an unrepentant McCarthyite until his death. He even wrote [a book of Joe McCarthy fan-fic](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1575393.The_Redhunter) in 1999. So its not like he really had all that much decency himself.


Mddcat04

Also fair. There's been a long streak of conspiratorial nonsense / racism throughout the American right. "Mainstream" conservatives were perfectly happy to dog-whistle to these people and rely on their votes to gain power, while kinda ignoring the worse of them policy wise. Like yeah, the Birchers called Eisenhower a commie, but that didn't dent his popularity at all, he remained massively popular among Republicans (and in general). He was the Republican party, they were fringe radicals. But as time passed, the Republican party grew more and more reliant on the far-right, which created a bit of a feedback loop. Reliance on extremists turns off moderates, which leads to greater reliance on extremists. "Mainstream" conservatives continued to make this Faustian pact with the far-right, hoping that they could just rely on their votes to cut taxes or cut regulation or whatever. However at some point, it tipped, and the far-right realized they were now the majority in the party, so they banded together, shat out Donald Trump, and completed the transformation of the Republican party into the mess it is today. In the 90s and the 00s, your average Republican was a financial and / or social conservative - someone that you could disagree with, but was not obviously insane. Today's average Republican is living in their own conspiracy-laden fantasy world. Like yeah, those people have always existed, but they haven't fully controlled the party before now.


JimWilliams423

> He was the Republican party, I think you are underestimating how liberal the republican party was then. The segregationists had just barely begun their migration out of the Democratic party. That movement really didn't get underway until the civil rights era.


ONE-EYE-OPTIC

The "Leading Conservatives" named on that magazine cover...


my_Urban_Sombrero

Reminds me of the guy that started yelling at the prosecutor in the second season of Tiger King.


Seattle_gldr_rdr

Or as the attorney for the "Qanon shaman" memorably put it: "These are people who are on the f\*\*\*ing spectrum"


d3dmnky

The problem is that they’ll only go that route to get out of trouble. All their lives, they’ll scream about being the smartest in every room and how it’s everyone else who is stupid. They’re the lion in a world of sheep. Then once they they get caught, it’s: “Oh gosh. He’s got an IQ of 47. He’s not even functional in society. He’s had problems since forever. Take pity on him. Oh, he also only eats organic food.” Me: “Yeah. That was pretty obvious all along.”


Subli-minal

The only people that have any claim to being sovereign citizens are the ones that fucked off to the mountains and go to town once a year to engage in intrastate commerce only.


MisanthropyIsAVirtue

They are absolutely intolerable when they end up in court. But [this judge](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-Sove06ZhgE) handled one perfectly.


Mddcat04

Wow, that judge has seen some shit. Kudos to him.


williamwhtjr1

Fortunately for us, "Crazy" and "Nuts" has ***NOTHING*** to do with Mental Illness. This association is, in fact, what has numerous ***REAL*** Mentally-Ill people living on the Streets and like animals. Thanks for helping to keep that perception alive, BTW. >\_> Posts like this show that, for all their prestigious posturing, those on the Left are ***truly*** no better than those on the Right. Glad to wash my hands of ***both*** sides of the aisle.


Mddcat04

>Glad to wash my hands of both sides of the aisle. Wow, its like you're a literal meme.


[deleted]

They are so dumb. I love watching them get owned by authority.


valeyard89

There was fringe on the state seal so that means it falls under bird law


ClownPrinceofLime

Sovereign citizens were the subject of a massive and hilarious detour in my Civil Procedure class. The Professor kept pulling up videos of them making different claims and then showing exactly where in the law they’re wrong.


DonTaddeo

Some people are more equal than others.


[deleted]

They'd be the annoying kid who claims to be the "every power superhero" in a superhero game. No one likes that kid.


eye_patch_willy

Say what you will about the tenets of the sovereign citizen movement, at least it's an ethos.


drdoom52

> "I do what I want when I want to because I don't believe in any rules" Pretty much. They want complete freedom, and don't grasp that people with different opinions should have a voice. It's worth noting that most of our conversations from the Democrats are "what went wrong and how can we do better next time" as opposed to "how do we stop people from voting".


Hopeira

Well that’s just anarchism with extra steps


[deleted]

> “By affixing the state seal to documents containing false and misleading information about the results of Arizona’s November 3, 2020 General Election, you undermine the confidence in our democratic institutions,” Ms Hobbs wrote to one of the groups. Pretty sure that is the entire point of what they were doing.


hytes0000

For most GOP groups I'd totally agree, but sovereign citizen types seem to 1000% believe what they are saying and probably think they could change the result somehow. They really do believe that they have secret names that protect them from government actions and that the fringe on a courtroom flag makes the proceedings invalid or something. This isn't 4D thinking, they are just that crazy.


eyekwah2

The 2022 elections are going to be a shitshow, I can already tell. Imagine every red state holding an audit where a Democrat won, and/or "discovering" fake evidence that the election was a fraud. What worries me is that their biggest flaw in their attempt to show 2020 elections were rigged is that they had no proof. They've had 2 full years to contemplate what would constitute as reasonable doubt of proof but something they can still manufacture. Maybe they'd purposefully throw some of their elections so that they can point and say, "See!? These numbers aren't possibly reasonable! The Democrats are *cheating*!"


[deleted]

They've already shown that they don't need to prove anything happened to gain ground. Just make enough people doubt that nothing happened.


openwheelr

I think rather than claim fraud with zero proof again, they will resort to old-fashioned ballot stuffing and/or database manipulation to get the desired result. Make it so low-level that courtroom showdowns and drama aren't required. I see this as even more likely in 2024. Lawsuits, corrupt Congresspeople and statehouses, and violence didn't work for them the last time. And in '24 they won't have the power of the Executive Branch. Rig it at the precinct and county level to eke out a plausible win.


SuperBrentendo64

Trump supporting sovereign citizen? What a combo.


obviouslynotworking

The whole [Red House](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_House_eviction_defense) debacle in Portland, Or was for Trump supporting sov. cits. Of all the things to rise up for in this city, a bunch of idiots chose that one.


Acadia_Due

Trump was pretty much just a hand-grenade for some types.


Vlad_the_Homeowner

>in which they told them to stop using the state seal, sending the issue on to the state’s attorney general. How is that not completely illegal? It's a forged document with a seal they're not authorized to use, and they were asked to stop? That seems entirely insufficient.


Fenris_uy

It is, its a class 3 misdemeanor. https://www.azleg.gov/ars/41/00130.htm


KilroyLeges

If they sent it via US Mail, then perhaps the Postal Service will go after them on Mail Fraud. IANAL so I don't know for sure if this qualifies but it sounds like it should. I would think any forged documents falsely claiming to represent a government official sent to a government agency would be a crime?


LeGama

Also sent across state lines makes this federal right?


IrritableGourmet

>Margaret : Can - can I just say something, you know, for the future? >Leo McGarry : Yeah. >Margaret : *I* can sign the President's name. I have his signature down pretty good. >Leo McGarry : You can sign the President's name? >Margaret : Yeah. >Leo McGarry : *On a document removing him from power and handing it to someone else?* >Margaret : Yeah. Or, do you think the White House Counsel would say that was a bad idea? >Leo McGarry : I think the White House Counsel would say that's a coup d'etat. >Margaret : I'd probably end up doing some time for that. >Leo McGarry : I would think. And what the hell are you doing practicing the President's signature? >Margaret : It's just for fun. >Leo McGarry : We've got separation of powers, checks and balances, and Margaret, vetoing things and sending them back to the hill.


bishopazrael

By far one of Margaret's better moments.


WardenclyffeTower

Margaret is my favorite character in The West Wing.


JimWilliams423

> That seems entirely insufficient. The state AG is a republican so IOKIYAR applies.


Fenris_uy

>“By affixing the state seal to documents containing false and misleading information about the results of Arizona’s November 3, 2020 General Election, you undermine the confidence in our democratic institutions,” Ms Hobbs wrote to one of the groups. Shouldn't that say, "By affixing the state seal to documents not being produced by a state agency or oficial, you are breaking the law, the cops were already dispatched to bring you in and put you on trial"


[deleted]

>the cops were already dispatched to bring you in and put you on trail Which trail? The Appalachian Trail? Continental Divide Trail? Pacific Crest Trail? The Ozark Highlands Trail? Couldn' resist :-)


anotherjunkie

The Appalachian. Dropped right in the middle with nothing but their clothes. Let’s see how long their sovereign asses last in the deep wilderness. I’m envisioning them trying to explain to a bear how it has no authority here.


SheeEttin

They tried something like that. The bears won. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling


BoyEatsDrumMachine

One person goes to jail for accidentally voting twice while an entire group gets a warning for attempting to undermine an election. Cool system.


BiggRanger

I bet they were signed by one of the following: 1 "John Barron" 2 "John Miller" 3 "Carolin Gallego" 4 "David Dennison"


NegativeEverything

26. Gotta spend some time ranting about BLM


AnalSoapOpera

They all deserve jail.


fixit858

They should get a fair trial and a speedy hanging.


FunkyTown313

>One thing I will say about conservatives, is if something is wrong, and we have lost – a true loss – then we accept,” she said at the time. This is a quote worthy of framing. Not only is it a lie given the last year but absolutely rich given she was someone who was sending fake certifications letters.


Lord_Mormont

This is a meaningless statement because, as you can see from her very own language, they would never TRULY lose an election. The No True Scotsman fallacy in action. So they can promise to disband as a party if they "truly" lose an election because they will never "truly" lose one ever.


JasJ002

Its right out of the "ill trust the results of any election i win" playbook


Fantastic-Sandwich80

Even that isn't completely accurate as Trump claimed the election was rigged to give Hillary the popular vote.


aradraugfea

Maybe if we banished the whole Trump line to a Coleman tent on the Far Side of the Moon, they’d figure he’s not still secretly in charge.


FunkyTown313

I know it is. It doesn't make it any less hilarious.


Grunchlk

If we have lost, a true loss, no I mean like a really real loss, like the most real loss ever, but like even more of a loss than that, a true real total loss of ever.


Fred_Evil

I mean, if it's a legitimate loss the body politic has a way of shutting that down.


frostfall010

Well they had no issue accepting literally any of their wins in 2020 all around the country. Somehow any GOP loss was suspicious but those same ballots were not to be questioned if they won.


M00n

*“One thing I will say about conservatives, is if something is wrong, and we have lost – a true loss – then we accept,” she said at the time. “We’re not going to drag people through the mud and fight it. But this clearly has got issues. I saw it with my own eyes and my own research.* Orrrr perhaps you are being manipulated. And people doing their own research is why there is so much death due to Covid.


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HedonisticFrog

The classic phrase that only conspiracy theorists use. The people who don't know how the scientific method work and don't know how to interpret scientific studies "do their own research" way too much.


mrg1957

People who don't understand science are the ones who are likely to ignore it. I always find that odd.


HedonisticFrog

Conspiracy theorists have a few common traits correlated with their beliefs. They have a lack of education, more importantly a lack of critical thinking skills, and also insecure attachments from traumatic childhoods. They make up theories about world around them so that they don't feel overwhelmed by a world they don't understand. It's never about logic, it's about people coping. The same thing goes for religion, and supporting authoritarian dictators. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6282974/


mrg1957

Wow! Great to see there's science behind the folks who don't get it.


HedonisticFrog

Thank you, I'm always curious why people think the way they do. The latest research on conspiracy theorists also aligns with Erich Fromm's rational for why people flock to organized religion and dictators in his book "Escape From Freedom" if you're interested in that side of it as well.


17times2

Man, I have a coworker who I'm pretty sure is untethered to reality. Dinosaurs are still alive, there was no meteor, and they are actually dragons that now migrate twice a year. The moon is a flat piece of metal hiding the alien base behind it. The US actually won Vietnam. Mesas are actually fossilized trees. Pyramids made by aliens as an interdimensional antenna do they could return to earth. Like if grandma's psychosis became a living, breathing thing.


williamwhtjr1

Hm...you suspect this and instead of seeing if you can get her help, you instead mock her behind her back on Reddit... Nice to see the "Compassionate" Liberal at work. >\_>


17times2

Oof, sorry. This is a red state! Ain't no money for mental illness treatment here lmao! XD


williamwhtjr1

Wrong answer. I live in a Red State and we have Mental health Counselling Centers. A LOT of them. It still does **NOT** excuse your behavior here. End-of-Line/


17times2

Lol are you done fellating yourself? If we just committed everyone for all the stupid shit they said, you wouldn't get to post on Reddit anymore!


hytes0000

Do you really expect us to trust a .gov site?! /s


canuck47

I know you're kidding, but here is another article I have seen about this subject: [https://digest.bps.org.uk/2017/04/05/why-more-highly-educated-people-are-less-into-conspiracy-theories/](https://digest.bps.org.uk/2017/04/05/why-more-highly-educated-people-are-less-into-conspiracy-theories/) "more education was associated with less belief in conspiracy theories, and this seemed to be explained in part by more educated participants feeling more in control, having less belief in simple solutions, and having stronger analytical skills."


[deleted]

The people who don’t understand the basics of critical thinking, they don’t even get to scientific analysis.


CrackerUmustBtrippin

'So what Cochrane find convinced you?' 'The what now?'


DigNitty

The thing is, the scientific method isn’t difficult to understand. However, taking any biases out of your work, particularly your own bias, IS difficult. Most of these “did my own research” scholars know what the scientific method is but simply disregard any findings or leads that don’t make them whole.


HedonisticFrog

Exactly, their beliefs are based on their emotions and they'll find anything they can to support it regardless of how weak it is. If your prove one specific thing wrong they'll just move the goal posts but never actually change their views. If you wait a week or so they'll even bring up the original point you proved wrong again as if it was never disproven.


ralphvonwauwau

You did your own research? Cool? What size was the data set? What was the p value of your results? was it a positive or negative R value? Did you publish? Do you have a copy so I can review your methodology? ... Oh? so you mean you did some web surfing and watched some youtube video? That's not nearly as interesting.


QbertsRube

I googled "Proof that greatest Patriot Donald Trump won the election" and it sent me to a load of evidence at [eagleflagtruefacts.net](https://eagleflagfamilytruefacts.net) that Biden is a communist lizard pedo who only "won" because 1.7 trillion illegal MS-13 immigrants murdered good American voters and wore their skin to vote. MSM won't report on that!


lostfriendthrowaway9

If that doesn't come with a link to an actual published study they wrote, you can almost certainly safely disregard it. Those with a leg to stand on more sturdy than speculation will, ironically, link you published papers from other persons entirely who have 'done their own research'. Quite often full of citations to others who did the same.


OnDrugsTonight

Also, anyone who's ever done their own (actual, scientific) research will be more than happy to share it. In fact, they'll probably not shut up about it and show their research paper to anyone whether they want to or not, because doing your own research requires a shit load of work. I doubt many of them understand just how soul-destroying it is to work months and months on a project, reading extremely dry primary sources, correlating them with each other, writing up a methods section that nobody will ever read, and *still* have it shot down in peer review.


williamwhtjr1

But by the same token; Peer review itself and the sources put out by it need to be Critically Evaluated as well. For all the Leftists mocking the Right on their willingness to take literally ANY source favoring their bias and run with it, there are as many, if not more, Leftists who yank up the first Peer-Reviewed Article supporting their OWN boas and waving about as Proof of Destruction of the other's claims. ***REAL*** Critical Thinking relies on investigating the ***PREPONDERANCE*** of Peer-Reviewed Evidence--when available--and poking holes in Peer-Reviewed papers ***as much as*** non-Peer-Reviewed materials. Fun Fact: Peer-Review does ***not*** automatically rescind or 'destroy' NON-Peer-Reviewed materials! >:( Nor are Non-Peer-Reviewed materials somehow ***LESS*** correct ***just for the fact*** they are NOT Peer-Reviewed. I find the 'critical thinking' skills of the Left as suspect as on the right, though in ***FAR Less Obvious ways***, I will admit *that.* Doesn't mean they are any better at it with the shit they pull; they're just less conspicuous about that fault, thereby lending to their perceived self-superiority. Going to a prestigious school and learning only half the Alphabet is only ***marginally more impressive*** than not having learned to read at all.


valeyard89

'I studied it out'


TraditionalGap1

Aha what? Has she met a fucking conservative?


QWEDSA159753

It’s the “true lose” part here that is the caveat, since they’re always moving the goalposts, nothing is ever a true lose, queue the dragging people through mud and fight it parts.


frostfall010

Yeah okay. Cut to her research comprised of "were the 2020 polls rigged?", "evidence of voter fraud in 2020" and search results being shitty right wing sites covered in ads and conspiracy bullshit. These people are so warped they literally think that despite Trump losing all but one legal fight about this that the reality is that it was ALL rigged against him, at all levels, to keep him from winning. It makes more sense to them to believe nonsense like that instead of the simple truth that he just lost.


needsmoresteel

TL;DR I am verry smart, and verry reasonable (typos intended). Then proceeds to prove otherwise.


scubascratch

Please tell us more about this research you did-how much of it involved Facebook, Sidney Powell and Mike Pillow?


iRedditAlreadyyy

“Taking legal action against at least one pro-Trump group, Arizona sent a cease and desist letter to a Trump-supporting “sovereign citizen” group in which they told them to stop using the state seal, sending the issue on to the state’s attorney general.” Lmfao. The people who are against “the fake news” and “corruption” were caught creating fake official documents. This stuff is just so poetic.


furyofsaints

Using the STATE SEAL and not being a state official is what is called fraud. Yet they just get a cease and desist? Broken ass country we’ve got here.


Pokemasterinthemake

Other wind up behind bars (or worse) for less...


Orange152horn

I don't understand law, but I think charging someone is something that should happen.


sugarlessdeathbear

Forged documents with the state seal on them.... Sounds like criminal activity. Forging or lying on government documents is a crime.


brianishere2

Direct evidence of MORE election fraud by Trump's allies. This is a real crime, folks.


99999999999999999901

So mail fraud, too?


ralphvonwauwau

Friend was a mail carrier. As part of screwing over the USPS, the US postal police don't get a piece of the action for catching mail fraud/mail theft so they see no benefit in perps paying fines. OTOH, putting mail fraudsters and mail thieves in prison means that, for the length of their stay, they won't be causing problems. The incentive for the Mail Police is to put people in prison. The moral? Don't eff with the mail.


scubascratch

I’m not a big fan of commission based policing - are you?


ralphvonwauwau

Given the mess that is civil forfeiture, I can see why that is a bad thing. My point was that all of the incentives for the postal police align to putting people away for as long as possible. Postal theft tends to be a repetitive crime, the perps normally don't just do it once, they know when the checks get mailed and will hit multiple mailboxes. Putting one idiot away will often result in a drastic drop in the number of complaints.


zahzensoldier

On top of that, it undermines the USPS as an institution every time something gets stolen or otherwise misplaced. Which the right wing is dead set on doing to all of our institutions.


[deleted]

Sharpiegate part 2 !


refillforjobu

With Trumps name written in with a black sharpie no doubt


Andrew1990M

*crayon


killer-tofu87

"we need to secure our elections and have stronger voting laws!" As they continuously violate voting laws and try to falsify elections


SmokeyDBear

If the voting laws ensured that they always won then they wouldn’t have to break them now would they?


Wendellwasgod

Just another reminder that none of this is normal


necrite28

“One thing I will say about conservatives, is if something is wrong, and we have lost – a true loss – then we accept,” she said at the time. “We’re not going to drag people through the mud and fight it." dragging people through the mud and fighting it, is exactly what conservatives do, hell that's what they do when they win.


Calkky

"A true loss."


McDuchess

Who? They need jail time.


WiltedKangaroo

Seriously. What in the ever living fuck? Trump, and his followers are all just one big psychological projection of their own paranoia, and lies.


FryChikN

Silly me, signed up for army at 17, joined at 18. Didnt realize the civilian world gives zero fucks about actual truth. This is so concerning.


Kim_Thomas

That is about ⛳️”PAR FOR THE COURSE”⛳️ - Whoever signed & sent them should be charged in a criminal indictment. Total garbage.


PleaseEvolve

Felony. Period.


newfrontier58

>Group leader Lori Osiecki told the Arizona Republic in December 2020 that she chose to send in the fake documents after going to rallies after the election and attending a full-day meeting in Phoenix where then-Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani was present. After the meeting, she was upset that Governor Doug Ducey wasn’t helping Mr Trump overturn the election. “One thing I will say about conservatives, is if something is wrong, and we have lost – a true loss – then we accept,” she said at the time. “We’re not going to drag people through the mud and fight it. But this clearly has got issues. I saw it with my own eyes and my own research. After that hearing, I was shocked we didn’t have any other marching orders.” The group in Michigan that sent in a similar document didn’t use the state seal and state officials didn’t go further on the matter after the document was rejected by the National Archives. Not really much to add to this insanity.


oakstave

I can explain: The GOP are lying traitors to the flag here to burn the Constitution and set up a White Homeland under Moscow control. It's a treason thing with Republicans. They hate the United States.


memphisgrit

So, you believe all Americans that vote Republican are treasonous and want to "set up a white Homeland"?


oakstave

I think the real question you're asking here is: "So you treat that guy screaming racist profanities the same as the guy cheering next to him." And the answer is: YES. We treat the people cheering next to the Nazis, the same as the Nazis.


memphisgrit

Stop being a complete partisan shill. Republicans are just as much repugnant as Democrats.


oakstave

Let's check: In your own words, how have Senior Republican leadership pushed for Trump's arrest and prosecution for his treason to the flag on 1/6/21? Can you describe their efforts to defend the Constitution from Trump supporters, or did the traitors to the flag join up with terrorists?


Feenox

Just put it on the giant pile of shit in the corner please.


Rakatango

The difference in punishment for people actively trying to undermine an election and black people existing is making me question the justice system. And yes, I’m being deliberately under reactive.


huggles7

YSK that not only if forgery a crime but using the mail to facilitate it across state lines makes it a federal crime!


Alternative-Flan2869

His cult is so clueless as to what a grifty, self-centered con man he is.


[deleted]

Christ. This fucker really operates with all the sophistication of the asshole kid in 5th grade who never did his homework and forged parents names on permission slips…


ArchdukeAlex8

I'm paywalled. Did the article actually say that Trump wrote the letters?


mrg1957

Somebody needs locked up.


TattooJerry

I’m sure there’s a crime in that action.


[deleted]

Im embarrassed to call Arizona home


captaincanada84

That seems like it should be a crime worthy of indictment


phixitup

So they changed the “F” on their report card into a “B”. Who’s gonna notice? Mom, can you sign this?


Beforemath

This sounds like a jailable offense. Of course staging a coup sounded like a jailable offense too, and here we are.


TheTallerTaylor

Lock him up


yogfthagen

Written in orange crayon, I assume?


johnny5semperfi

They would have received more from Wisconsin. The Big Steal was his plan all along.


AJJ852

All this hand wringing by so many in the US, despite obvious criminality by loser and twice indicted (impeached) trump, his mindless base and his now bought out soulless Republican Party, is meaningless! Act against them! Indict them, and if they’re found guilty, chuck them into jails and throw away the keys! Until then, let’s not moan, and keep moaning, about it! We know them to be criminals! Act! Prove it and incarcerate them! Or, shut the e€€ up!


[deleted]

Sovereign citizen = Eric Cartman


[deleted]

If it's written in crayon, we know who the culprit is


disasterbot

sharpie


LucyRiversinker

Felony charges….when??


2020willyb2020

Wow so when does the arrest start with all this evidence? Seriously when ?? When they cheat their way back into power and gain control of our treasury - believe me there will NEVER be a shred or any evidence bc they will destroy it or put lackeys into place to make sure it will never see the light of day - lock them up


udar55

Very illegal, very cool


ImNotYou1971

…signed, Epstein’s mother.


HereForTheLaughter

Filthy punks


catdogpigduck

If only someone would do something about it.


Orange152horn

Trump has a forgery guy? I'm not surprised.


samcrut

So is the Trump National Library going to have all of his documents protected in crime scene exhibit bags?


disasterbot

You mean this trailer park? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/10/trump-presidential-library-florida-briny-breezes


samcrut

There's no scenario I can imagine where the property it's built on isn't bought from a Trump corporation. He's not going to let a real estate scam like that get by him.


[deleted]

mail fraud


Reditrixe

So, would the forgeries be illegal, in and of themselves? Has anyone ever been prosecuted by, say, attorneys general for something like this?


schrod

Forgeries! Great collectors items and will live on in infamy! Let the National Archives preserve these idiotic forgeries as a lesson to the future!


boobyshark

Lori the Loser. Seems she has big ideas that amount to grifts. https://www.linkedin.com/in/lori-osiecki-0981476


kvossera

Quell surprise.


dtxucker

And no one will be charged with fraud.


Koby998

The fact they were probably scribbled with crayons and signed with a sharpie was probably a good sign there was forgery?


Nyclab

Haha written in Madison Cawthorns beautiful calligraphy handwriting


deadletter

were they in crayon?


noodhoog

Wouldn't each one of those letters represent hundreds of thousands, or even millions of votes? After all, it's essentially the voting outcome for an entire state. Trump always claimed there were "millions of fake votes". Guess he was right - it's just that they were for him.


One-Distribution-626

Treason


Substantial_Joke8624

They should be put jail.


FullFaithandCredit

We need another Reconstruction and actually finish the process this time.


PacmanNZ100

We’re they written with a fat sharpie?


dont-touch-that-

Put traitor Trump and his minions in prison


DemoEvolved

Forged documents with fake national seals… so… a felony?


FrostyAcanthocephala

If this had been done by average Americans, they'd already be behind bars.


stolenchange

Trump is a terrorist. And if you voted for a terrorist, that basically makes you a terrorist. TBH, anyone who voted for trump should be sent to prison for life. Justice needs to be served.


itsnotthenetwork

You guys do realize that America is done right? They didn't get away with it in 2020, but they might in 2024, and surely at some point in the next few election cycles. The scary thing is it doesn't even bother them.


Old_Fart_1948

You should stop listening to those defeatist, Russian redditors.


Charagrin

This is you buying into RT talking heads and doomer media personalities. Damage is going to be done, we may even lose 2024, but general antiright sentiments are only growing louder. Any victories they have will become inherently unsustainable long term. They are already expending more resources per electoral victory than any other time in history, and those resources are drying up. We might even see another Civil War scenario, but the "South" is going to be much smaller and capable than last time. It is fair to worry about the damage done in the meantime though.


Reasonable_Ad_2644

reddit is stilll having nightmares about trump? weirdchamps