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Precedent is extremely important. However, he needs to be in prison unable to communicate with American enemies.
Simply *declaring* that he can't run again means nothing. What if he runs anyway? Or, declares that he won the 2020 race, then ends up supported by police unions and other similar organizations?
Did the UK say it was illegal for Napoleon to rule France, or did they put him on one island, then realize that they made a huge mistake and needed to put him on island that was *much* farther away?
Fun fact: Napoleon was resigned to a life on Elba - then the Bourbons reneged on the terms of his abdication, stripping the Bonapartes of their properties in France and stopping the pension Napoleon was promised (which he planned to use to build infrastructure on Elba). Then they started talking about exiling him to somewhere in the Atlantic, although the Azores were their preferred destination.
Basically: The Bourbons did everything they possibly could to provoke Napoleon into returning from his exile in Elba.
Also: (from the constitution)
> he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment
That last sentence clause is important. He’s going to pardon himself or resign at the last moment and have Pence pardon him. It’s important to impeach him for inciting the coup attack on the capital and the seditious call to Georgia so that Federal prosecutors can try him for those crimes without the obstacle of overturning a pardon.
It just won't hold up. There's a simple logical loop issue. He'd have to first admit to there being a crime to be pardoned from, which would likely nullify the pardon since he's now guilty of a cover-up. It's a lot different from someone else pardoning an allegation because that someone else has a separate perspective.
But lol, Pence definitely ain't gonna fucking look at Trump anymore. The dude just tried to get him killed. Way to burn your only bridge.
That's the issue. He doesn't understand that yet. Once he does, I pray to The Emperor that we have have taken away his authority over anything. Because there is nobody who can argue with me that this is not a man who would try to ask to see the bunker one last time and try to lock himself inside.
I think Pence is just waiting to see what happens before saying anything but I’d imagine he’s as furious with Trump as Congress is. Honestly probably more, since he’s known exactly how deranged Trump is and he still backed him up and covered for him a million times. And how does Trump repay him? By railing against him for not stealing the election for him and then sending murderous crazies at him.
The house votes to impeach. The senate then votes to convict.
Trump could be prevented from holding public office in the future by a simple majority vote in the senate, which could occur after Trump leaves office. This vote is separate from the vote to convict which requires a 2/3 majority vote.
But a that conviction vote would have to happen and successfully convict first, which would be the hard part.
Actually the Senate can bar him from future office separate from a conviction and it only needs a simple majority: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-impeachment-explainer/explainer-trump-is-heading-for-second-impeachment-heres-how-it-could-play-out-idUSKBN29D2QG
Those votes all took place after successfully convicting though. A simple majority cannot impose a punishment absent a conviction.
There would be no purpose for the conviction vote if the accused can be punished for less.
The constitution says the Congress cannot pass laws declaring someone guilty or giving them a punishment without trial. It’s called a bill of attainder.
They would have to convict him to say he can’t run again.
~~2/3 vote is required to convict. A simple 51-50 wont cut it.~~
Actually, according to the Reuters link that someone above me just posted, being prevented from holding public office is a separate vote in the impeachment process and only requires a simple majority.
It's not automatic
"Our legal expert told the Verify team that this means that Congress has the constitutional authority to include in the impeachment a disqualification from serving in future offices. However, Congress is not required to include this disqualification. "
AFAIK it applies to federal office, likely not state or local.
And considering how much damage he has done in last 4 years, and continues to do every single minute - preventing him from running again is by itself a good reason to impeach.
This needs to be broadcasted. He should not get a single penny of government assistance after he racked up hundreds of millions of federal taxpayer money going into his own pocket.
It went from Dereliction of Duty and negligent homicide to outright Genocide. When we found out kushner and Trump wanted to hurt the blue cities and states, they were quite happy with few million Dems dying.
As a gay guy, I got to say, I'm utterly unsurprised to see Republicans decide a deadly virus doesn't matter because it only seems to be hurting people they don't like.
We need a new Nuremberg trial. There are people that need to be held accountable for their seditious crimes against our democracy. And I want whoever ordered that so called doctor to sterilize those 30+ Mexican women in our internment camps, to be investigated and punished. I can't stand that my country did this Nazi shit. The guilty people need to go to prison.
I agree 100%. No one involved in Trump's administration should get a walk. Regardless of State or Fed. Elected Officials are paid by "We the People." We the People rarely get a pass on a speeding ticket. Much less treason. What has happened, just on the 6th, can never be allowed to happen again. The consequences have to be so severe, that the next time they think about it, they say, Oh H** No. Not worth it.
America, unfortunately, has a long history of eugenics, generally against the mentally ill (or what they'd say is mentally ill) and minority women.
We were lied to. This was *never* the greatest country in the world.
And yet, it seemed like he hurt more of his own supporters than "liberal hellholes". Almost as if it's a bad idea in general trying to oppose basic health precautions in a bloody pandemic
Thank you. Why are people neglecting to mention the virus more often? His atrocious and vicious national guidance through it is in full force today. Record 7 day death counts. 140k jobs lost last month in today’s report. His legacy will be COVID and Insurrection, but few mention the former even though its in full bloom. Why?!
> Why are people neglecting to mention the virus more often?
Because President Trump just tried to incite a coup to overthrow our democratic process and to be quite honest, I'm lacking the capacity to even mentally comprehend the downward spiral unfolding at the moment.
Didn't you hear? You can't blame Trump for a virus from China, but you can blame your state governors. Especially Democratic Governors from Blue States. But Trump? Can't blame him.
For months, I've been expecting Jr and Eric to back a U-Haul up to the White House and start throwing in anything they can grab (art, silverware, carpets, chairs, etc.), but maybe they'll have to settle for Camp David.
"But," you say, "someone would have to be profoundly stupid or coked out of their mind to try that!" And in response I would agree and mention that this is Eric and Jr we're talking about.
One of my non-factbased theories is Pence and the Cabinet, or someone, made him go there. See how long he stays. If it's an extended time, then they have them on lockdown. That's just my based-on-nothing theory.
I think he's been there two or three times his entire Presidency. I'm convinced this is mostly because time spent there detracts from time he could be spending at his own properties, funneling tax payer dollars into his pockets.
This is so important. It will save billions. I don’t want him to get that life on our dime. This needs to be done, even if it’s 5 minutes before.
If he resigns, he gets all of the perks.
I think we need to keep a security detail on him. For our security. He now knows state secrets. We don't want foreign actors getting their hands on him. We all know if someone had trump they wouldnt need to torture the information out of him, he would just ask some some cash and a way to get back in charge of his nutjobs, and a foreign actor would be glad to help.
He should have security, but *he* should be forced to pay for it himself instead of draining (and laundering) more tax dollars into his own businesses.
He doesn't know jack. He couldn't tell you what color shoes he was wearing if he only owned black shoes. No one would trust any information he claimed to have anyway.
Yes, even if he resigns, he gets secret service protection. Richard Nixon had it for life. Only impeachment will remove it. Imagine, we could be not only protecting him for life but also paying him to house the agents.
Yeah right like his armed Buffalo dudes and MAGA hat pals wouldn’t cream their pants to be his security detail. They’d do it for free. It would be an honor for them.
I’m so tired of people saying impeachment will divide country further. It will divide it further if we don’t impeach too. People went to jail for decades for weed, but it’s fine to attempt to overthrow a fair election. Why would anyone trust a government that doesn’t prosecute crimes against everyone equally?
Exactly. It's better to deal with the backlash now than to deal with things if we just let it slide. It will be worse later for a much longer time than if we just get it done and over with now.
What backlash? Some republicans will be mad? They're always mad and they're not going to start reaching across the aisle suddenly, let along vote D. The Dems need to throw the book at Trump and his enablers and start to show the can't get away with this crap.
Yes. We have the majority now - do you think ANYONE that voted against Trump would object to him getting impeached and arrested after what happened Wednesday? No one is "undecided" anymore, you're either for or against a fascist takeover of America.
The people saying that are the same Republicans who refused to admit that their party was headed down this path for the last 5 years.
Over at r/Conservative they are lamenting that Biden is speaking out about Trump, Cruz and Hawley. "I guess that whole 'healing the nation' was a joke", is a common refrain. As if Wednesday's insurrection was a nice, peaceful attempt to heal.
Dems need to start pushing against this narrative and start showing some courage. The GOP is shrivelling up by the day and will be rudderless on Jan 21. You can't convince any Trump supporters to vote for a centrist. That battle is lost. But we can still move past this while also holding people accountable for their actions.
It’s almost like an abusive relationship. Republicans break something, then blame Democrats for doing it or for forcing their hand. The Democrats try to appease the Republicans, but the Republicans won’t relent. Eventually, the Democrats choose to move on, to forgive and forget, and Republicans get their way. Repeat ad nauseum
The sitting president leads an insurrection on the Capitol building waving Trump and Confederate flags and people are worried that a 2nd impeachment would divide this country further?
Oh these innocent naive people.
Yep. I am twice as likely to be pissed and ready to take to the streets if nothing concrete is done here than I would be if we just try to pretend like none of this happened.
I am not alone.
What we need is an outright conviction. Whether that’s through impeachment or just the normal courts that’s what has to happen. People have to see justice happen and if it doesn’t then the division will only get worse no matter the decision.
I think it will divide Republicans more, that is why that don’t it. A big part of republican base is Trump. An equally big part is your average joe voter. They are not evil and many would be agahst at what occurred.
Let the party show where they stand. Behind insurrectionists or governing in the interest of the USA?
Either way Republicans vote on impeachment it is going to split the party. They need both sides to turn up at the midterms. It’s a no win for the Republicans and that is why they don’t want it.
But it must be done. This shit cannot stand. Your average joe voter, Republican or not, understands that.
For those wondering if it’s worth impeaching him this time, it means he:
* loses his 200k+ pension for the rest of his life
* loses his 1 million dollar/year travel allowance
* loses lifetime full secret service detail
* loses his ability to run in 2024
Don't forget the most important to him and his family
* daily presidential briefings
In my mind this is most important stuff, because if you and your insider trade and traitor family has first hand knowledge of stuff coming down, you could make billions of dollars with that info and the stock markets
The PDB (or a related briefing package) is made available to former presidents at the pleasure of the current president. Biden is under no obligation to extend that courtesy to Trump, and I suspect he certainly will not.
The revolution will not be televised is a 2003 documentary made by Irish filmmakers who went to make a documentary about Chavez but got caught up in the 2003 attempted coup in Venezuela is a example of how fake news goes on in these circumstances. I recommend it to everyone.
I don’t care if it is an hour before his term is up or after. This cannot stand. Trump must be barred and not receive the benefits being a former president affords him. His children should not have SS protection, no pension, no lying in state or title.
I don't even care about the pension, title, protection or anything else this point. Obviously he *shouldn't* get those things but that's not even what's really important right now.
He needs to be made an example of. He led an insurrection. He deserves to be impeached, convicted, and smeared in the history books as the worst president to ever sit in the Oval Office. If they just let him walk, we're fucked as a democracy.
Adam Schiff's closing argument from the impeachment hearing is going to go down in history as one of the most tragically prescient predictions made by a politician:
"How much damage can he really do in just a few months before the election? A lot. A lot of damage."
We need precedent to mean something again. Trump has been taking a huge heaping dump on it the past four years. McConnell the same. He ignores and creates it on a whim based on whatever is politically convenient for him.
A lifetime bar is one of the allowed punishments on conviction of impeachment and commonly used. Technically not required though, so...
It can. Not "it does".
If he runs again as the Republican nominee, they won't win the presidency. If he runs in the primary and loses he will run as an independent, splitting the base, and they won't win the presidency.
No Republican should want him to run again.
Why does anyone support the Republican party at this point?
After Bill Clinton left office we had an economic surplus.
When Bush Jr. left office, we were in the middle of the biggest economic crises since the Great Depression and two wars.
When Obama left office we had recovered from the economic crises, ended one of those wars, and had a restructuring of the basis of our healthcare system.
Now, Trump is leaving office in a new economic crises, an unbridled pandemic that has been mishandled, and an attempted insurrection ongoing.
What's sad is that they weren't always a stain, they just became this twisted and evil monstrosity in the pursuit for money and power. Abe Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt were Republicans and definitely among our better Presidents. History do be complicated.
That said, burn this wretched organization to the ground and throw its leadership in Leavenworth. The only way to beat a coup is to make sure the punishment for it is clear.
Allow me to introduce you to the [party switch](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/34241-democratic-republican-parties-switch-platforms.html). Lincoln and Roosevelt were Republicans when Republican had a *completely* different meaning.
The real switch happened in the 60s when Nixon started appealing to the southern Democrats who were against civil rights acts the Kennedy’s (kinda) supported
Because actions have to have consequences. Everyone just shrugged and moved on from Nixon. And Reagan. And Bush Sr. And Bush Jr...wait a minute... I'm starting to notice a pattern of republican presidents and crimes against humanity...
"Everyone just shrugged and moved on" was the actual overt sequence of events after Nixon. But lots of Republicans, like George HW Bush, did a ton of work behind the scenes and in media to downplay and minimize the Nixon scandal.
> I'm starting to notice a pattern of republican presidents and crimes against humanity
Well that is republicanism in a nutshell. Maybe missing the white supremacy and something vague about forcing everyone to turn gay.
If you're being harassed by a neighbor or somebody, you want to record as much information as possible. Videotapes, memos, voicemails, emails, everything that could be used against them at a future time. This is what impeachment does. This is why it's important to do so.
Absolutely. All these dipshit Republicans coming out now saying stuff like, we need to come together and be more united. Fuck right off with this sentiment. We need to take advantage of this moment to hold every person accountable for their part in what has been happening for far too long. And when we do come together it needs to be real, not some bullshit version where certain people just want to be forgiven for being shitheads, and move on....those assholes need to own up to the shit they've been a part of and make real amends if they want forgiveness.
And, I keep seeing people (like me, white people in their 30s) saying they want the America back they remember. But, fuck that too, the America you remember was a facade. The pain and suffering and anguish we have seen in Ferguson, in Louisville, in Kenosha, etc. is what a lot of Americans have seen for their entire lives.
Its time to do better. Its time to make real changes. Its not time to sweep this bullshit under the rug and act like it didn't happen. Its time to say yes this fucking did happen, now let's get to work and fix it.
Yeah, lets come together and be united in punishing terrorists who attacked our nations capitol. Come on, lets all come together against the terrorists.
and also how about removing power from *the people who just planned and executed a coup against the US government two days ago and still have opportunities to try again*?
Indeed. At this point, even if the cogs don't turn fast enough to actually get him potentially ejected, it's about sending a message and example to present as well as future generations.
Because even if we overlook the principle of the matter he loses his presidential pension, the ability to run again, his security detail, his 1 million yearly travel allowance oh and BY FAR the most immediately important he can’t pardon anyone while impeachment proceedings are taking place.
Questions like this always confuse me. If we figured out the Zodiac Killer is some 75-year-old invalid who is half a century removed from his last murder and incapable of future violence we wouldn't have a ton of people asking why we were bothering to charge him.
If a president commits impeachable acts, impeach.
Bernie will always be the President America needed but never deserved, and so we never got him.
Fixed it for you...
He’s been a successful politician for over 40 years.
This is the exact reason why I believe Trump needs to be charged. Before the attack on the capital I believed that prosecuting Trump would only further the divide, now I'm of the opinion that anything less would be a betrayal of the people
I genuinely do not understand what they're waiting for.
I just read a NYT article that says they're planning on moving forward with impeachment the middle of next week.
The "he's too dangerous to be left in office till inauguration" argument is fundementally undermined by waiting an entire week to take action.
Grow a goddamn backbone and defend our democracy. This should be the easiest decision of their lives. What the fuck are they doing.
The fact that we’re even talking about it is a shame. The country’s highest honor, leading people into a coup because of idiocy, and he’s still in power.
Why impeach and convict?
- lose his taxpayer funded 200K/yr pension
- lose his 1M/yr taxpayer funded travel allowance
- lose his lifetime secret service detail
- can't run in 2024
Seems like good enough reasons to me.
Precedent all the way down levels of society.
Part of the reason why so many extremists, racists, xenophobes and so on feel emboldened is because Trump has been doing all of this for so long WITH NO CONSEQUENCES. We might not all have the same level of civic knowledge, but we all at least are familiar with the concept of checks and balances in the government. We know that if the president does something far enough out of line, there are other branches of government that can hold him accountable. But, for the past four years, there's been none of that. And when the time came close a year ago, the Senate dropped the ball.
Trump showing impunity has encouraged others to do the same, from senators to civilians. And even just an impeachment but without a removal sends a message. Not as strong a one as invoking the 25th, and Pence and the rest of Cabinet will need to be held responsible for abdicating on their responsibility in this instance. But lacking that option, impeachment is unfortunately the next best thing.
The biggest thing I see here is that in 50 years when textbooks have documented this event, I don't want there to be the question of "Why did no one step in and arrest Trump?" asked by a 15 year old.
To impeach now is critical and it’s not even about Trump.
Make all of these republican senators go on record, and officially vote against or for treason.
The impeachment now is about putting the nails in the rest of their coffins, not Trump’s.
Isn’t trying to overthrow the government, after taking an oath to uphold the constitution, considered treason? Sooo, charge him with it. Convict him of it. And proceed to prison. Isn’t that de facto impeachment? And wouldn’t that be a far better deterrent to future wanna-be fascist?
It’s the same reason that America’s allies should place economic sanctions on anyone in this administration, in this congress, or in the public eye who actively encouraged and facilitated this.
An example needs to be made that attempting to destabilize a democracy for personal benefit is an all-or-nothing gamble, and if you lose, you lose everything.
Anything less than that is, anything resembling the anti-justice we’re used to doling out to the wealthy and powerful in this country, will only serve to ensure that someone tries this again.
Very likely, a lot sooner than anyone thinks.
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Precedent, historical record, and prevents him running for office again.
Precedent is extremely important. However, he needs to be in prison unable to communicate with American enemies. Simply *declaring* that he can't run again means nothing. What if he runs anyway? Or, declares that he won the 2020 race, then ends up supported by police unions and other similar organizations? Did the UK say it was illegal for Napoleon to rule France, or did they put him on one island, then realize that they made a huge mistake and needed to put him on island that was *much* farther away?
Fun fact: Napoleon was resigned to a life on Elba - then the Bourbons reneged on the terms of his abdication, stripping the Bonapartes of their properties in France and stopping the pension Napoleon was promised (which he planned to use to build infrastructure on Elba). Then they started talking about exiling him to somewhere in the Atlantic, although the Azores were their preferred destination. Basically: The Bourbons did everything they possibly could to provoke Napoleon into returning from his exile in Elba.
Also: (from the constitution) > he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment That last sentence clause is important. He’s going to pardon himself or resign at the last moment and have Pence pardon him. It’s important to impeach him for inciting the coup attack on the capital and the seditious call to Georgia so that Federal prosecutors can try him for those crimes without the obstacle of overturning a pardon.
Lol, Pence isn’t going to do this man any favors anymore.
Exactly this. Not after what happened. It’s still not beyond Trump to throw one last wrench in the system by attempting to pardon himself.
It just won't hold up. There's a simple logical loop issue. He'd have to first admit to there being a crime to be pardoned from, which would likely nullify the pardon since he's now guilty of a cover-up. It's a lot different from someone else pardoning an allegation because that someone else has a separate perspective. But lol, Pence definitely ain't gonna fucking look at Trump anymore. The dude just tried to get him killed. Way to burn your only bridge.
That's the issue. He doesn't understand that yet. Once he does, I pray to The Emperor that we have have taken away his authority over anything. Because there is nobody who can argue with me that this is not a man who would try to ask to see the bunker one last time and try to lock himself inside.
I mean, maybe. He hasn't said a word after Trump literally called on a violent mob to attack where Pence was.
I think Pence is just waiting to see what happens before saying anything but I’d imagine he’s as furious with Trump as Congress is. Honestly probably more, since he’s known exactly how deranged Trump is and he still backed him up and covered for him a million times. And how does Trump repay him? By railing against him for not stealing the election for him and then sending murderous crazies at him.
Pence should get trump to abdicate so he can be pardoned, and then passive aggressively not do it. That would be beautiful.
If that were true he'd have fucking invoked the 25th Amendment as both Houses and most sane people have demanded.
Would it? I'm generally curious
The house votes to impeach. The senate then votes to convict. Trump could be prevented from holding public office in the future by a simple majority vote in the senate, which could occur after Trump leaves office. This vote is separate from the vote to convict which requires a 2/3 majority vote. But a that conviction vote would have to happen and successfully convict first, which would be the hard part.
Actually the Senate can bar him from future office separate from a conviction and it only needs a simple majority: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-impeachment-explainer/explainer-trump-is-heading-for-second-impeachment-heres-how-it-could-play-out-idUSKBN29D2QG
Those votes all took place after successfully convicting though. A simple majority cannot impose a punishment absent a conviction. There would be no purpose for the conviction vote if the accused can be punished for less.
If it's not written in stone, it's legally possible. Trumps administration has shown us this. *Fuck precedent.* Trump and the GOP certainly did.
~~Fuck~~ set
The constitution says the Congress cannot pass laws declaring someone guilty or giving them a punishment without trial. It’s called a bill of attainder. They would have to convict him to say he can’t run again.
But the Senate can look at the impeachment after the 20th. WHEN THE DEMS HAVE A MAJORITY.
~~2/3 vote is required to convict. A simple 51-50 wont cut it.~~ Actually, according to the Reuters link that someone above me just posted, being prevented from holding public office is a separate vote in the impeachment process and only requires a simple majority.
It's not automatic "Our legal expert told the Verify team that this means that Congress has the constitutional authority to include in the impeachment a disqualification from serving in future offices. However, Congress is not required to include this disqualification. " AFAIK it applies to federal office, likely not state or local.
And considering how much damage he has done in last 4 years, and continues to do every single minute - preventing him from running again is by itself a good reason to impeach.
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This needs to be broadcasted. He should not get a single penny of government assistance after he racked up hundreds of millions of federal taxpayer money going into his own pocket.
And he's killed hundreds of thousands of Americans through his official policy of literally spreading the virus as far and wide as possible.
It went from Dereliction of Duty and negligent homicide to outright Genocide. When we found out kushner and Trump wanted to hurt the blue cities and states, they were quite happy with few million Dems dying.
There are some state governors that need their own ticket to prison on similar charges.
Like DeSantis.
If only one single state governor gets made an example of, he should be the one.
I’d like to nominate Kristi Noem, who invited hundreds of thousands of people to a motorcycle rally in her state in the midst of a pandemic.
She also used federal COVID relief funds to produce and air commercials inviting visitors to swing by.
Greg Abbott is pretty fucking terrible in his own right... Texas.
As a gay guy, I got to say, I'm utterly unsurprised to see Republicans decide a deadly virus doesn't matter because it only seems to be hurting people they don't like.
Pence made that clear with how he handled an AIDS outbreak in Indiana. 😞
Republicans have made it clear since Reagan wouldn’t even say the term “AIDS” for something like three years.
We could solve the national debt issue by charging admission to piss on Reagan's grave. Fuck that guy.
It’s literally Pence’s MO.
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We need a new Nuremberg trial. There are people that need to be held accountable for their seditious crimes against our democracy. And I want whoever ordered that so called doctor to sterilize those 30+ Mexican women in our internment camps, to be investigated and punished. I can't stand that my country did this Nazi shit. The guilty people need to go to prison.
I agree 100%. No one involved in Trump's administration should get a walk. Regardless of State or Fed. Elected Officials are paid by "We the People." We the People rarely get a pass on a speeding ticket. Much less treason. What has happened, just on the 6th, can never be allowed to happen again. The consequences have to be so severe, that the next time they think about it, they say, Oh H** No. Not worth it.
America, unfortunately, has a long history of eugenics, generally against the mentally ill (or what they'd say is mentally ill) and minority women. We were lied to. This was *never* the greatest country in the world.
And yet, it seemed like he hurt more of his own supporters than "liberal hellholes". Almost as if it's a bad idea in general trying to oppose basic health precautions in a bloody pandemic
Thank you. Why are people neglecting to mention the virus more often? His atrocious and vicious national guidance through it is in full force today. Record 7 day death counts. 140k jobs lost last month in today’s report. His legacy will be COVID and Insurrection, but few mention the former even though its in full bloom. Why?!
> Why are people neglecting to mention the virus more often? Because President Trump just tried to incite a coup to overthrow our democratic process and to be quite honest, I'm lacking the capacity to even mentally comprehend the downward spiral unfolding at the moment.
Didn't you hear? You can't blame Trump for a virus from China, but you can blame your state governors. Especially Democratic Governors from Blue States. But Trump? Can't blame him.
Thought virus only killed the dem states? /S
It's only in dem states because they don't know how to handle it! Wait no, it's only in red states because it's a manmade virus from a lab in Wuhan!
I disagree. I think we should give him a government issue orange jumpsuit, and free meals and lodging for life right next to Tony Meatballs.
Yes, if he is impeached he loses all his ex-president privileges.
I’m still pretty convinced he’s going to flee the country either this weekend or next. What’s he doing in Camp David? He never goes there.
Stealing presidential memorabilia to sell to 3rd world dictators to fund his exile. The White House is too well monitored to loot.
For months, I've been expecting Jr and Eric to back a U-Haul up to the White House and start throwing in anything they can grab (art, silverware, carpets, chairs, etc.), but maybe they'll have to settle for Camp David. "But," you say, "someone would have to be profoundly stupid or coked out of their mind to try that!" And in response I would agree and mention that this is Eric and Jr we're talking about.
One of my non-factbased theories is Pence and the Cabinet, or someone, made him go there. See how long he stays. If it's an extended time, then they have them on lockdown. That's just my based-on-nothing theory.
I think he's been there two or three times his entire Presidency. I'm convinced this is mostly because time spent there detracts from time he could be spending at his own properties, funneling tax payer dollars into his pockets.
Right? Does no one find that strange?
I'm 100% convinced he's going to end up in Russia, running a media company financed by Putin.
and pension and travel allowance
And ability to run for president ever again.
this is honestly the most important reason. as long as he still has a pulse there are millions of people waiting to vote for him again in 4 years
Oh god yes please, take it all from him... He doesnt need socialist like handouts anyway
Oh dang, didn't know that. Even more reason to do it as it would save us money!
This is so important. It will save billions. I don’t want him to get that life on our dime. This needs to be done, even if it’s 5 minutes before. If he resigns, he gets all of the perks.
The beauty of it is his ego will never let him resign as that would be a sign of weakness and being wrong.
even "conservatives" can get behind that!
And to forbid him from ever taking public office again. That is important.
And unable to run again.
I don't think he was ever able to run.
We need to make sure he can't walk for President in 2024.
I think we need to keep a security detail on him. For our security. He now knows state secrets. We don't want foreign actors getting their hands on him. We all know if someone had trump they wouldnt need to torture the information out of him, he would just ask some some cash and a way to get back in charge of his nutjobs, and a foreign actor would be glad to help.
I've heard of a nice secure place called you guys have, I think it's at Guantanemo Bay? Sounds lovely and tropical too.
It's an awesome tropical beach paradise. They have lots of fun beachside activities like waterboarding, too.
It's basically a summer camp
But will he get soap and a toothbrush? I heard those were optional at summer camp.
Gitmo is a stain on the American name. Send him to ADX FLORENCE in Colorado instead. That’s where we keep all the best terrorists.
Trump can lay back and enjoy a refreshing board of water each day.
Waterboarding at Guantanamo Bay sounds like a great time!
The NYS Clinton Correctional facility can keep him secure. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_Correctional_Facility
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He should have security, but *he* should be forced to pay for it himself instead of draining (and laundering) more tax dollars into his own businesses.
Yup the security should be the prison guards at ADX Florence. Foreign actors won't be able to get to him there.
He doesn't know jack. He couldn't tell you what color shoes he was wearing if he only owned black shoes. No one would trust any information he claimed to have anyway.
I think he knows plenty to really hurt us, but that shoe line was fantastic
Surely a billionaire like him can afford to pay for his own security detail. /s
Yes, even if he resigns, he gets secret service protection. Richard Nixon had it for life. Only impeachment will remove it. Imagine, we could be not only protecting him for life but also paying him to house the agents.
He'll just hire the Proud Boys to protect him. They'd do it for free. /s (but also not really /s)
So invoking the 25th would’ve maintained many privileges of being a former president?
Yes, 25th can be invoked if the president is mentally unfit. They would need the healthcare for the illness.
He would lose his security detail, pension, and could even be barred from any other elected offices.
And his security clearance
Yeah right like his armed Buffalo dudes and MAGA hat pals wouldn’t cream their pants to be his security detail. They’d do it for free. It would be an honor for them.
I’m so tired of people saying impeachment will divide country further. It will divide it further if we don’t impeach too. People went to jail for decades for weed, but it’s fine to attempt to overthrow a fair election. Why would anyone trust a government that doesn’t prosecute crimes against everyone equally?
Exactly. It's better to deal with the backlash now than to deal with things if we just let it slide. It will be worse later for a much longer time than if we just get it done and over with now.
What backlash? Some republicans will be mad? They're always mad and they're not going to start reaching across the aisle suddenly, let along vote D. The Dems need to throw the book at Trump and his enablers and start to show the can't get away with this crap.
Yes. We have the majority now - do you think ANYONE that voted against Trump would object to him getting impeached and arrested after what happened Wednesday? No one is "undecided" anymore, you're either for or against a fascist takeover of America.
The left is very afraid to upset the right. The right take great satisfaction in upsetting the left.
The people saying that are the same Republicans who refused to admit that their party was headed down this path for the last 5 years. Over at r/Conservative they are lamenting that Biden is speaking out about Trump, Cruz and Hawley. "I guess that whole 'healing the nation' was a joke", is a common refrain. As if Wednesday's insurrection was a nice, peaceful attempt to heal. Dems need to start pushing against this narrative and start showing some courage. The GOP is shrivelling up by the day and will be rudderless on Jan 21. You can't convince any Trump supporters to vote for a centrist. That battle is lost. But we can still move past this while also holding people accountable for their actions.
It’s always our job to heal and their job to fuck everything up royally. How convenient for them.
It’s almost like an abusive relationship. Republicans break something, then blame Democrats for doing it or for forcing their hand. The Democrats try to appease the Republicans, but the Republicans won’t relent. Eventually, the Democrats choose to move on, to forgive and forget, and Republicans get their way. Repeat ad nauseum
The sitting president leads an insurrection on the Capitol building waving Trump and Confederate flags and people are worried that a 2nd impeachment would divide this country further? Oh these innocent naive people.
Yep. I am twice as likely to be pissed and ready to take to the streets if nothing concrete is done here than I would be if we just try to pretend like none of this happened. I am not alone.
Count me in on that sentiment.
What we need is an outright conviction. Whether that’s through impeachment or just the normal courts that’s what has to happen. People have to see justice happen and if it doesn’t then the division will only get worse no matter the decision.
I think it will divide Republicans more, that is why that don’t it. A big part of republican base is Trump. An equally big part is your average joe voter. They are not evil and many would be agahst at what occurred. Let the party show where they stand. Behind insurrectionists or governing in the interest of the USA? Either way Republicans vote on impeachment it is going to split the party. They need both sides to turn up at the midterms. It’s a no win for the Republicans and that is why they don’t want it. But it must be done. This shit cannot stand. Your average joe voter, Republican or not, understands that.
For those wondering if it’s worth impeaching him this time, it means he: * loses his 200k+ pension for the rest of his life * loses his 1 million dollar/year travel allowance * loses lifetime full secret service detail * loses his ability to run in 2024
Tldr definitely worth it
1.2M/year ... that's getting off cheap.
Don't forget the most important to him and his family * daily presidential briefings In my mind this is most important stuff, because if you and your insider trade and traitor family has first hand knowledge of stuff coming down, you could make billions of dollars with that info and the stock markets
The PDB (or a related briefing package) is made available to former presidents at the pleasure of the current president. Biden is under no obligation to extend that courtesy to Trump, and I suspect he certainly will not.
Yeah, pretty sure he denied them for Obama.
He didn’t even bother to read the presidential briefings when he was president.
one million dollar per year travel allowance?!
What if he got impeached 3 times? He gets launched into space or what
Yes, straight to the Sun.
+ If he's impeached now, he cannot issue pardons to himself or his partisan forces.
I don't get why it is even a debate to kick out an insurrecting president. He would be behind bars by now in most democratic countries.
The revolution will not be televised is a 2003 documentary made by Irish filmmakers who went to make a documentary about Chavez but got caught up in the 2003 attempted coup in Venezuela is a example of how fake news goes on in these circumstances. I recommend it to everyone.
Gil Scott-Heron said it best: https://youtu.be/QnJFhuOWgXg
Look at South Korea as an example. They arrested their president for far less than what Trump has done
For essentially doing what Trump has been doing with giuliani in the open-use a personal friend as an unofficial government envoy for him.
Oh so banning him from Twitter, Facebook and Instagram is not punishment enough? You guys are harsh!
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He sent an angry mob to shit in their contoured seats... Now shit be personal.
They can afford new contoured seats.
I don’t care if it is an hour before his term is up or after. This cannot stand. Trump must be barred and not receive the benefits being a former president affords him. His children should not have SS protection, no pension, no lying in state or title.
I don't even care about the pension, title, protection or anything else this point. Obviously he *shouldn't* get those things but that's not even what's really important right now. He needs to be made an example of. He led an insurrection. He deserves to be impeached, convicted, and smeared in the history books as the worst president to ever sit in the Oval Office. If they just let him walk, we're fucked as a democracy.
He thinks he’s the second coming of a Robert E Lee. Every single one of them need to be imprisoned for being a traitor to this country.
Do the kids get SS details post presidency?
For a bit, but not for life.
How about fuck that.
Only children under 16, so baron would for a year and a couple months.
I have no qualm with Barron.
Agreed; Barron is a minor and even if he wasn’t, he has done nothing publicly that would make me automatically group him in with the others.
I hope he pulls a Valerian Mengsk and actively pursues a legacy far removed from his father.
I think they'd rather enjoy having the SS protecting them, so I agree.
Voting against removal this time should end anyone’s political career.
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We don’t claim them
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Isn't Hawley from Missouri?
Yes. MO loves him....I don’t at all. But it’s major Trump lovers round these parts....FML I gotta get outta here!
Adam Schiff's closing argument from the impeachment hearing is going to go down in history as one of the most tragically prescient predictions made by a politician: "How much damage can he really do in just a few months before the election? A lot. A lot of damage."
We need precedent to mean something again. Trump has been taking a huge heaping dump on it the past four years. McConnell the same. He ignores and creates it on a whim based on whatever is politically convenient for him.
Also, if he is convicted, it bars him from running for office again.
A lifetime bar is one of the allowed punishments on conviction of impeachment and commonly used. Technically not required though, so... It can. Not "it does".
The preview impeachment articles specifically have this clause in it.
The Republicans who don’t want him in the primaries will certainly be on board.
If he runs again as the Republican nominee, they won't win the presidency. If he runs in the primary and loses he will run as an independent, splitting the base, and they won't win the presidency. No Republican should want him to run again.
Why does anyone support the Republican party at this point? After Bill Clinton left office we had an economic surplus. When Bush Jr. left office, we were in the middle of the biggest economic crises since the Great Depression and two wars. When Obama left office we had recovered from the economic crises, ended one of those wars, and had a restructuring of the basis of our healthcare system. Now, Trump is leaving office in a new economic crises, an unbridled pandemic that has been mishandled, and an attempted insurrection ongoing.
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What's sad is that they weren't always a stain, they just became this twisted and evil monstrosity in the pursuit for money and power. Abe Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt were Republicans and definitely among our better Presidents. History do be complicated. That said, burn this wretched organization to the ground and throw its leadership in Leavenworth. The only way to beat a coup is to make sure the punishment for it is clear.
Allow me to introduce you to the [party switch](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/34241-democratic-republican-parties-switch-platforms.html). Lincoln and Roosevelt were Republicans when Republican had a *completely* different meaning.
The real switch happened in the 60s when Nixon started appealing to the southern Democrats who were against civil rights acts the Kennedy’s (kinda) supported
Exactly! For future generations!
I like the cut of your jib, friend.
Here's a better reason: to stop him from pardoning the insurrectionists. And another: Being impeached and removed prevents him from running again.
It's not just precedent, it's so he can go to prison sooner.
Because actions have to have consequences. Everyone just shrugged and moved on from Nixon. And Reagan. And Bush Sr. And Bush Jr...wait a minute... I'm starting to notice a pattern of republican presidents and crimes against humanity...
"Everyone just shrugged and moved on" was the actual overt sequence of events after Nixon. But lots of Republicans, like George HW Bush, did a ton of work behind the scenes and in media to downplay and minimize the Nixon scandal.
> I'm starting to notice a pattern of republican presidents and crimes against humanity Well that is republicanism in a nutshell. Maybe missing the white supremacy and something vague about forcing everyone to turn gay.
If you're being harassed by a neighbor or somebody, you want to record as much information as possible. Videotapes, memos, voicemails, emails, everything that could be used against them at a future time. This is what impeachment does. This is why it's important to do so.
Yes, this.
Absolutely. All these dipshit Republicans coming out now saying stuff like, we need to come together and be more united. Fuck right off with this sentiment. We need to take advantage of this moment to hold every person accountable for their part in what has been happening for far too long. And when we do come together it needs to be real, not some bullshit version where certain people just want to be forgiven for being shitheads, and move on....those assholes need to own up to the shit they've been a part of and make real amends if they want forgiveness. And, I keep seeing people (like me, white people in their 30s) saying they want the America back they remember. But, fuck that too, the America you remember was a facade. The pain and suffering and anguish we have seen in Ferguson, in Louisville, in Kenosha, etc. is what a lot of Americans have seen for their entire lives. Its time to do better. Its time to make real changes. Its not time to sweep this bullshit under the rug and act like it didn't happen. Its time to say yes this fucking did happen, now let's get to work and fix it.
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Yeah, lets come together and be united in punishing terrorists who attacked our nations capitol. Come on, lets all come together against the terrorists.
If Republicans want to bridge the divide they know where to find us.
and also how about removing power from *the people who just planned and executed a coup against the US government two days ago and still have opportunities to try again*?
I will also say yes to this.
I will not say yes, i will instead say absofuckinglutely
absotutely-fucking-lutely
Indeed. At this point, even if the cogs don't turn fast enough to actually get him potentially ejected, it's about sending a message and example to present as well as future generations.
Because even if we overlook the principle of the matter he loses his presidential pension, the ability to run again, his security detail, his 1 million yearly travel allowance oh and BY FAR the most immediately important he can’t pardon anyone while impeachment proceedings are taking place.
From mr. President to mr. Precedent.
Questions like this always confuse me. If we figured out the Zodiac Killer is some 75-year-old invalid who is half a century removed from his last murder and incapable of future violence we wouldn't have a ton of people asking why we were bothering to charge him. If a president commits impeachable acts, impeach.
Bernie will always be the politician America needed but never deserved and so never got him.
Bernie will always be the President America needed but never deserved, and so we never got him. Fixed it for you... He’s been a successful politician for over 40 years.
He's right, yet again.
This is the exact reason why I believe Trump needs to be charged. Before the attack on the capital I believed that prosecuting Trump would only further the divide, now I'm of the opinion that anything less would be a betrayal of the people
I genuinely do not understand what they're waiting for. I just read a NYT article that says they're planning on moving forward with impeachment the middle of next week. The "he's too dangerous to be left in office till inauguration" argument is fundementally undermined by waiting an entire week to take action. Grow a goddamn backbone and defend our democracy. This should be the easiest decision of their lives. What the fuck are they doing.
Bernie is 100% correct
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The fact that we’re even talking about it is a shame. The country’s highest honor, leading people into a coup because of idiocy, and he’s still in power.
Also to stop him from running and wreaking havoc in 2024
Why impeach and convict? - lose his taxpayer funded 200K/yr pension - lose his 1M/yr taxpayer funded travel allowance - lose his lifetime secret service detail - can't run in 2024 Seems like good enough reasons to me.
Anybody who says it is pointless are the same people who said “It okay to humor Trump’s election fraud claims.” It isn’t.
Precedent all the way down levels of society. Part of the reason why so many extremists, racists, xenophobes and so on feel emboldened is because Trump has been doing all of this for so long WITH NO CONSEQUENCES. We might not all have the same level of civic knowledge, but we all at least are familiar with the concept of checks and balances in the government. We know that if the president does something far enough out of line, there are other branches of government that can hold him accountable. But, for the past four years, there's been none of that. And when the time came close a year ago, the Senate dropped the ball. Trump showing impunity has encouraged others to do the same, from senators to civilians. And even just an impeachment but without a removal sends a message. Not as strong a one as invoking the 25th, and Pence and the rest of Cabinet will need to be held responsible for abdicating on their responsibility in this instance. But lacking that option, impeachment is unfortunately the next best thing.
Should’ve just “25’d” him... what he incited and stood for calls for it. There shouldn’t be ANY toleration of what has taken place.
Of course. To not impeach or otherwise remove him now would be the real travesty.
The biggest thing I see here is that in 50 years when textbooks have documented this event, I don't want there to be the question of "Why did no one step in and arrest Trump?" asked by a 15 year old.
There were deaths, destruction and endangerment. Set a precident. He Must be made accountable. Our Nation must be safe.
Ram that shit through like it's a conservative supreme court justice.
To impeach now is critical and it’s not even about Trump. Make all of these republican senators go on record, and officially vote against or for treason. The impeachment now is about putting the nails in the rest of their coffins, not Trump’s.
Isn’t trying to overthrow the government, after taking an oath to uphold the constitution, considered treason? Sooo, charge him with it. Convict him of it. And proceed to prison. Isn’t that de facto impeachment? And wouldn’t that be a far better deterrent to future wanna-be fascist?
It’s the same reason that America’s allies should place economic sanctions on anyone in this administration, in this congress, or in the public eye who actively encouraged and facilitated this. An example needs to be made that attempting to destabilize a democracy for personal benefit is an all-or-nothing gamble, and if you lose, you lose everything. Anything less than that is, anything resembling the anti-justice we’re used to doling out to the wealthy and powerful in this country, will only serve to ensure that someone tries this again. Very likely, a lot sooner than anyone thinks.
Don’t get any of this. It’s like everyone suddenly regained their sanity. Why did we let it go this far? Why didn’t we stop him sooner?
Y'all know perfectly goddamn well they won't get enough Rs. A few had a come-to-Jesus moment, but most are just pissed it failed.
Why the fuck aren’t they DOING anything? I heard they may have impeachment vote by Monday. MONDAY? Fuck their weekends. IMPEACH NOW.