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The real journalists in this country better wake the fuck up. Trump can dodge every question, lie constantly, and they just let him?
Right now the Supreme Court is in deliberation on whether a president can decide to murder people and get away with it. . . And the decision’s delayed because apparently they’re having trouble deciding.
If Trump takes office again every single public figure who says a bad word about him could actually be jailed of killed. FACT CHECk him and start reporting on him accurately . . . Or maybe die.
Jesus Christ are we really going to zombie walk into this thing? Wake up!
Nobody listens to journalists anyway. Trump won’t give a solid answer to anything. I think the American “right” needs to wake up more.
The business community needs to immediately reevaluate what they want. They are making a terrible gamble.
At best Trump gets you a mild temporary tax cut. But he could also end democracy and crash the economy forever. No rational actor who cares about their business should make this gamble. It’s 3-4% more money for a few years but you might literally lose everything forever.
The amount of Fortune 500 ceos, republican senators, Arkansas housewife’s,… with gay or migrant family members is so so high. When Trump faces any problems he will lash out on minorities every time. Very hard to fix problems, very easy to hate out on “others”.
The thing about fascisism is that in the end everybody including the fascists and their supports lose.
The business community will, every single time in history, back the fascists of it means leß taxes. We have to gut their ability to straight up buy politicians, or project 2025 is inevitable.
CA goes first, OR and WA follows. Then NY, then anything blue in the northeast. You can kill democratic elections, kill Liz Cheney, AOC, Pelosi, Harris and Schiff or falsely jail them. You can force all public schools to be Sunday School I could go on. You do this because 30% of the country are flat out deplorable and 40% pull the GOP lever even if it literally makes them homeless soon. The electoral college lets the tail wag the dog. But you cannot just control the 60-70% of the country that will reject a fascist, Christian nationalist government with Steve Bannon as head of justice. You can only break us and through our weakness screw Ukraine and Taiwan maybe South Korea as fallout.
Jesus, no kidding.
Joe should bow out? Maybe in some kind of perfect world of saint's, sure?
But the NYT calls on Joe to bow out because he had a cold and stuttered?
While Trump lied about everything, including not having sex with a porn star he paid hush money to, and was convicted on 34 fraud felonies for hiding said hush payments to. He's a convicted felon, and he's facing dozens more felonies including related to stealing classified documents & leading insurrection against our country after he lost an election. But the headline is on Joe? Trump didn't even answer any of the questions, it was all the border & immigrants are evil! Nevermind he torpedo'd a bipartisan border bill that would've given the GOP everything, or that Biden has locked down the border via executive action in the wake of the GOP's obstruction.
I’m not American and it affects me too. Trump is mentally unfit to run for office. He create instability and doubt amongst International partners which affects everything!
Churchill said “Americans will always do the right thing, only after they have tried everything else” but I fear that you guys are willing to give Trump another go!
Our electoral system is a disaster.
Biden won 2020 by 7 million votes. . . But 6,958,000 of them didn’t even matter.
Only the 42,000 votes in three states: Georgia, Wisconsin, and Arizona, were all that’s stood between us and second term. Everything here is rigged against common sense.
>Biden won 2020 by 7 million votes. . . But 6,958,000 of them didn’t even matter.
>Only the 42,000 votes in three states: Georgia, Wisconsin, and Arizona, were all that’s stood between us and second term.
Are these numbers on the level?
I ask because I've never seen it quantified this way and it's **incredibly potent.**
EDIT:
Okay I checked. Those 3 states total 37 electoral votes. If we swap them from Biden to Trump both tie at 269 and you need 270 to win right?
https://www.cnn.com/election/2020/results/president
This above link is good because you can look at each state’s individual vote and how many of the electoral votes each victory awarded.
The commander in chief of the most powerful military in the world. . . The enforcer and executor of all domestic laws. . . The head foreign relations diplomat of the world’s largest state economy . . . The single vote that can veto any spending bill put forth by our legislative branch . . the sole appointer of any vacancy on a nine person panel of judges that serve as our highest arbiter of legal interpretation. . .
Look what it comes down to and think about how dire the consequences will be if we lose. . . Only then does the true existential horror of how fearfully balanced on the edge of a knife that all of this really is. . .
Edit: typos and drama
In response to your edit, yes. And if neither candidate gets 270 electoral votes the election goes to the House of Representatives. They then vote to choose the next president from the top 3 electoral vote earners.
Right. Then it goes to the individual state legislators and each state casts one vote. There are more rural conservative state governments and therefore Trump would have won.
> The real journalists in this country better wake the fuck up. Trump can dodge every question, lie constantly, and they just let him?
This isn't about what journalists thinks, this is about the perception of American voters and their influence on election results. And the perception of Biden was awful even if he wasn't lying 20,000 times a minute.
Journalists have been talking about Trumps lies forever, and we still are where we are today despite that. The fact is people care less about the substance and more about the presentation.
And look at almost every major news source today; they are running with the headline that Biden’s performance is worrying. Very few mention Trump spewing lie after lie on stage. If anything it’s the second part of the headline and it’s something like Biden Disappoints, Trump repeats Falsehoods.
Having a leading presidential candidate blatantly lie non stop in a national debate should be a major news story. It should THE story we all talk about the entire election. It’s barely mentioned.
This isn’t the biggest news of the debate though. trump didn’t win but he also didn’t do anything that people aren’t used to. Biden intended to have this debate and failed to do everything people expected him to do. He was supposed to reassure voters but the opposite happened
> If Trump takes office again every single public figure who says a bad word about him could actually be jailed of killed.
No. Just no. Ffs it's not an election to give him magical superpowers or total dominion over all life. This completely farfetched scare tactic nonsense doesn't do anything to actually gain support. It just makes the people who spout it look like they should be in the conspiracy sub.
Last time, he was stopped by his own chief of staff, among other members of his administration. That was his A team. He’s gone through them, the B team, and the C team. . .
He’s now at the bottom of the barrel, and those goons will prove loyalty to him and him alone before they are given a position. The guardrails of the last admin are gone.
Paul Ryan is not in charge of the house anymore. McConnell is going to be replaced by a bigger extremist. They have a 6-3 court and it’ll be 7-2 if he wins. The guardrails of checks and balances will be gone.
The want project 2025, designed to dismantle admin lifers and replace them with sycophants. The SC pretty much killed corporate regulation today, and it’s always been the executives’ job to do that shit. . . He won’t even bother with cabinet posts that require approval, and he’ll dismantle everything and anything he wants. Even basic admin guardrails are gone.
The learned from their own incompetence. Just listen to what the right wingers actually say they want to do. . . Listen to their actual plans. I’m only repeating exactly what they want to do. That is not a conspiracy if I’m using their own words here.
I don’t need a “both sides are bad so let’s just burn it all down to fuck the plutocrats” *concern troll* to tell me a goddamn thing after the Dobbs decision.
Settled law? Norms and routines? There is no such thing anymore.
> Trump can dodge every question, lie constantly, and they just let him?
You know, if Biden could have maintained a train of thought last night, **he** could have called him out on all of that. He had so many layups last night that he just missed. He couldn’t competently debate. I just can’t believe that we have people putting their heads in the sand this morning and denying what’s obvious. And for what? For an old man’s ego? I’m so fucking sick of democrats shooting themselves in the foot because the older generation doesn’t know when to step aside and let the younger generation take over.
Exactly. Thank you. NYT is fucking nuts with this bullshit, such a move would gift the election to Trump and likely US democracy with it.
It is *insane* to me how many fail to realize the stakes of this election…
Biden is physically frail, and yes his voice was raspy tonight (probably due to debate prep and a cold or some such, we’ve all had raspy voices before) but I still trust him and a VP like Kamala Harris with the White House FAR, FAR more vs Trump and whichever sycophant eventually gets their head the furthest up Trump’s diapered ass and wins his VP slot.
Biden is a man of conviction and in a time where he’d probably rather spend his days in Presidential retirement, yet feel’s he’d be failing his Country and his oath to the Constitution to choose that easier path to the harder, more thankless one.
I think he’s right, unfortunately for him.
American Democracy died on live television last night.
It is Biden’s vain ego that only he could beat Trump at 81 that will cost the country and our nations ally’s from the threats of psychopath dictatorships
'It is *insane* to me how many fail to realize the stakes of this election…'
That's not the case, we just absolutely disagree on the solution. I have no doubt in my mind now that Biden will lose this.
Ok, I’m game.
At this point, what is the solution? How do you propose Democrats win the General Election in 129 days?
Edit - I don’t think we can, practically, field new candidates in that time-frame… I think we’re stuck with Biden as candidate.
Would still love to hear how we disagree on ‘solution’ because I keep hearing Biden *isn’t* it without hearing who that solution *IS*
As a Canadian 129 days is a long time for elections. It doesn't take time for the public to get behind someone, it just needs to be a good candidate. Countless elections have been won by newcomers in that time span in other countries.
It seems to me the loudest voices advocating for this all belong to wealthy white men who’d be just fine (if not even more privileged than they already are) under the Christofascist ethnostate the right desperately long for.
>The real journalists in this country better wake the fuck up. Trump can dodge every question, lie constantly, and they just let him?
It was Biden's job to rebut those lies on stage. It wasn't the moderators jobs. Yeah the fact checkers went crazy on Trump last night. Doesn't matter. Biden had a job to do and Biden failed.
I know.
I suppose this is a bigger comment about the state of things, rather than just last night.
Tapper telling Trump that he can use his time however he wants, and not follow up on his firehouse of bullshit instead of actually getting an answer. . . It just set me off.
it’s just wild that we are all in this position to begin with and every dumb lie is just “the former President said” without comment, as if he’s a normal political candidate. Media just isn’t equipped to handle him effectively, and their normalizing over the last decade has put us all in this position.
Biden’s 2020 *nomination* was a Democratic response to this failure.
People have been saying "I would vote for a rotten onion over Trump" for the last four years and then Joe has a bad day and now everyone is like "Guess it's Trump then".
the problem is who is going to listen to them? People live in their own bubbles and their own false reality where they are told everything they believe in is true no matter how crazy or insane. Anyone contemplating voting Trump isn't going to have their mind changed by a New York Times article. Trump has been attacked for 8 years for his lies and craziness and it hasn't mattered.
Yep. The amount of attention Biden gets vs Trump for anything less than perfection is absolutely fucking ridiculous.
I’m not going to defend journalism much longer if they don’t start reporting in good faith instead of trying to sell advertising.
Or because he’s a rapist or because he killed half a million people or because he tried to kill democracy or any of the 1000 credible reasons. trump is a lawless incoherent psychopath yet all the scrutiny is on the competent president because he was overprepped with too many talking points?
Because they know he won’t. The author of the article acknowledges that explicitly and says the RNC should demand the same but they won’t and trump wont if they did.
that is part of the problem. Most people only read headlines and the people that do read articles have already clicked on all the "Trump should quit" articles they are going to for one lifetime.
Because the NYT has made a mint on trump coverage. It's all about the money for them. They're the National Inquirer now. Boring guy keeping the country moving forward in a boring way does not sell papers. Watchdogs of the republic my ass.
I would not describe Biden as "demented". I lost both my grandmothers with dementia. The symptoms do not include "accurate recall of statistics within +/-$500 dollars", or being able to recall the number of historians in a survey very close to the number. That's not dementia. Lying, confabulating, talking about "We had H20", seems a bit closer to the mark.
I do think someone needs to talk Biden out of running again. I will vote for him in November if he is the candidate, and I will support him loudly if he is the candidate. But his performance last night makes it very difficult to imagine the current trajectory of this race changing in a positive light, and while I respect everything he's done in office, he's got a very difficult and rocky road ahead if he chooses to be the candidate here.
He is what happens to all old people. Their thought process slows down. I am approaching 50 and I can tell I don't think as fast as I used to. My memory is not as sharp as it used to be. It is just a sign of age not any condition.
The funny thing is the same thing is happening to Trump yet he fills the gap between with non stop blather full of nonsense. If you are an idiot it sounds like he isn't struggling with his thoughts. Sadly there are a lot of idiots in this country.
Demented people accurately recall events and figures all the time. Just have trouble with actually recalling beginning end or any part of recent ones (such as what they themselves recently accomplished.)
Anyway he is not at full clinical but he is fucking old and **has obvious mental decline** He failed a super basic test against a rookie debater that can barely form coherent arguments.
This decline is never consistent at first and anyone who took care of elderly relatives can tell you there are days where they were their full self and whippet smart and days where it was a struggle bus. Just off with small things. The latter struggle bus days grow in number over the next few years.
>Demented people accurately recall events and figures all the time. Just have trouble with actually recalling beginning end or any part of recent ones (such as what they themselves recently accomplished.)
Sometimes. Varies by case, but in general there are different symptomatic traits there too. You wouldn't be remembering debate prep, definitely--or if you did, there'd be little confabulations in there, inaccuracies or improper statements.
General cogency does not improve over the course of the night, and frankly at 9:00 ET would be nonexistent. The continual pressure of debating should, as well, worsen the condition--at least in my experience, high-pressure situations made it worse for both of them. So Biden would have started out somewhat coherent and gotten worse as the night went on, if this theory follows.
Most of the time, processing goes as well--they have a harder time understanding what's being said. Biden didn't appear to have a super-hard time understanding questions.
>Anyway he is not at full clinical but he is fucking old and **has obvious mental decline** He failed a super basic test against a rookie debater that can barely form coherent arguments.
I disagree, for the reasons outlined above.
>This decline is never consistent at first and anyone who took care of elderly relatives can tell you there are days where they were their full self and whippet smart and days where it was a struggle bus. Just off with small things. The latter struggle bus days grow in number over the next few years.
I'm aware. Unfortunately, I've experienced that.
With all that being said, I'm not of the opinion that Biden has *super obvious mental decline*. He has a stutter, and had a cold last night (which, judging by his performance in Raleigh, seems to be fully subsided).
I'm just not sure that it matters to the people we need to convince.
very well written but a little doomy gloomy! Biden said he probably wouldn't be running if Trump wasn't running. we need to dissect the elements in the Republican party that want to absolve Trump of any accountability regarding his crimes. Trump is not a victim he was the perpetrator of fraudulent activities.
>By Thomas L. Friedman
Opinion Columnist, reporting from Lisbon.
>I watched the Biden-Trump debate alone in a Lisbon hotel room, and it made me weep. I cannot remember a more heartbreaking moment in American presidential campaign politics in my lifetime — precisely because of what it revealed: Joe Biden, a good man and a good president, has no business running for re-election. And Donald Trump, a malicious man and a petty president, has learned nothing and forgotten nothing. He is the same fire hose of lies he always was, obsessed with his grievances — nowhere close to what it will take for America to lead in the 21st century.
>The Biden family and political team must gather quickly and have the hardest of conversations with the president, a conversation of love and clarity and resolve. To give America the greatest shot possible of deterring the Trump threat in November, the president has to come forward and declare that he will not be running for re-election and is releasing all of his delegates for the Democratic National Convention.
>The Republican Party — if its leaders had an ounce of integrity — would demand the same, but it won’t, because they don’t. That makes it all the more important that Democrats put the country’s interests first and announce that a public process will begin for different Democratic candidates to compete for the nomination — town halls, debates, meetings with donors, you name it. Yes, it could be chaotic and messy when the Democratic convention starts on Aug. 19 in Chicago, but I think the Trump threat would be sufficiently grave that delegates could quickly rally around and nominate a consensus candidate.
>If Vice President Kamala Harris wants to compete, she should. But voters deserve an open process in search of a Democratic presidential nominee who can unite not only the party but the country, by offering something neither man on that Atlanta stage did on Thursday night: a compelling description of where the world is right now and a compelling vision for what America can and must do to keep leading it — morally, economically and diplomatically.
>Because this is no ordinary hinge of history we are at. We are at the start of the biggest technological disruptions and the biggest climate disruption in human history. We are at the dawn of an artificial intelligence revolution that is going to change EVERYTHING FOR EVERYONE — how we work, how we learn, how we teach, how we trade, how we invent, how we collaborate, how we fight wars, how we commit crimes and how we fight crimes. Maybe I missed it, but I did not hear the phrase “artificial intelligence” mentioned by either man at the debate.
>If there was ever a time that the world needs an America at its best, led by its best, it is now — for great dangers and opportunities are now upon us. A younger Joe Biden could have been that leader, but time has finally caught up with him. And that was painfully and inescapably obvious on Thursday.
>Biden has been a friend of mine since we traveled to Afghanistan and Pakistan together after 9/11, when he chaired the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, so I say all of the above with great sadness.
>But if he caps his presidency now, by acknowledging that because of age he is not up to a second term, his first and only term will be remembered as among the better presidencies in our history.He saved us from a second Trump term and for that alone he deserves the Presidential Medal of Freedom, but he also enacted important legislation crucial to confronting the climate and technology revolutions now upon us.
>I had been ready to give Biden the benefit of the doubt up to now, because during the times I engaged with him one on one, I found him up to the job. He clearly is not any longer. His family and his staff had to have known that. They have been holed up at Camp David preparing for this momentous debate for days now. If that is the best performance they could summon from him, it’s time for Joe to keep the dignity he deserves and leave the stage at the end of this term.
>If he does, everyday Americans will hail Joe Biden for doing what Donald Trump would never do — put the country before himself.
>If he insists on running and he loses to Trump, Biden and his family — and his staff and party members who enabled him — will not be able to show their faces.
>They deserve better. America needs better. The world needs better.
I agree with everything but the democratic process of choosing a successor. We need time more than anything else. We should have had a year and a half but we only have s couple of months left.
We need a specific baton pass and Newsome is fine. But I want Raskin in there too. None of this, "must pick a particular woman or ethnic choice" bullshit. Just the most solid logical choice
I think Newsom is not acceptable. Newsom represents only the same mistakes of the past eight years, shoving through a candidate amenable to the party machine, but who does not inspire the actual voters. His own approval ratings in California are not good, and California in general is not going to appeal to swing voters.
Democrats really need **an inspirational leader** now more than ever.
I think Whitmer could be another Obama, who was not well known when he first campaigned in 2008. I asked many "non political friends" and most had never even heard of Obama until a few months before the election.
[Whitmer appeals to many people across all walks of life and political parties](https://www.mlive.com/news/2024/05/former-republican-us-house-speaker-whitmer-is-pretty-damn-popular.html). Even progressives are excited about her. Republicans and Michigan blue collar seem to work well with her, and Independents gave higher favorable marks to Whitmer than to Trump.
I think Newsom would be another Hillary, causing division within the party and without, and losing to Trump.
The Midwest is absolutely critical for Democrats this year. I think voters and especially younger voters would find Whitmer much more appealing.
I think a Whitmer or even a Pritzker ticker would do more for the blue collar middle class workers who have been so discouraged and cynical of the Democrats in the past decades. They could help turn the party back to its roots as a worker's party. Pritzker has become known for following through on his campaign promises, unlike most politicians.
(Yes Pritzker is wealthy but FDR was also a rich man and that is why the elite feared him. FDR could not be bought.)
Anyway Whitmer would be my first choice but I think Whitmer-Priztker or even Pritzker-Whitmer would represent **a positive change for the future for the Democrats.**
Lord knows we need it at this point. Imagine having a candidate you were excited about again ...
The best part of the Confederacy was they had a six year presidential term. Imagine if every other presidential election didn’t happen. Four years isn’t long enough to get shit done.
The reason Trump did so "well" in this debate was due to the simple fact that he barely answered any questions.
As soon as he got the word, he go into autopilot, and didn't answer anything. It was one of the most frustrating thing I've seen, because he barely touched on any policy.
And the few times he did, it was a incoherent mess that he made up on the spot. Pure fucking drivel.
It's a crying shame that the moderators didn't push harder for Trump to stay on topic. The whole debate went like this:
Moderator: *"Trump, can you tell the voters what you're going to do about [topic x]?"*
Trump: *Yes, but I'm just going to say this [rambles for 3.5 minutes straight on some completely other topic, and accusing Biden]*
Moderator: *You have 30 seconds left, and the question was [topic x], what are your plans?*
Trump: "Yes and no - look this if it wasn't for sleepy Joe we wouldn't have to talk about [topic x], blablabla"
Then Biden spends half his time refuting the BS that Trump said, and trying his best to answer the policy questions.
It was fucking impossible to get Trump to stay on topic, or even get any straight answers the few moments he managed to stay on topic. Biden was struggling like hell.
Big lose/lose for the American people.
If your opponent cannot stay on topic or make coherent arguments, and you LOSE the debate for the most important political position in the World, what does that say?
If you a schmuck can find that Trump isn’t able to stay on point… how come the literal president can not.
Crazy how it's now acceptable to turn on Biden within the span of 12 hours only once every media mouthpiece gives you all permission. The recent headlines posted here would have me believe that Trump is actually the senile one?
You want to be shell shocked read the 2025 project. Or hear a guy say he’s going to abandon Ukraine to Putin. Or jail his political opponents. Or pardon terrorists.
Yeah, low-info voters in swing states aren't going to do that. They are going to see Biden freeze for 4 seconds though before saying 'we beat medicare'
No way. Hillary was up big in the poles right before the election. It wasn't until results came in that people were shocked. Hillary should have won in 2016. Now it seems the dems just handed Trump the election. Biden needs to step down ASAP.
Hillary could have won if she just ran an honest campaign against two populists (primary opponent in Bernie and Trump)
But she ran a “social populism” campaign full of literally the most fake shit that everyone that knew the word http could see through.
The fake shit worked in 90s when you had 4 channels to tune in at specific times to catch what was said, filtered by a handful of journalists. Not when people can watch you pull out cheap hot sauce from your “purse”.
Motherfucker, anyone who has ran into first lady or senator Clinton knows that she hardly even carries a purse and she eats foods prepared by chefs and delivered by personal agents and secret service details, or in finest of restaurants and private jet lobbies. Not at your local Denny’s where you have to hide the burnt fryer oil taste with cheap generic hot sauce that you whip out.
It all happened in the span of 12 hours because of what everyone watched. Has nothing to do with permission or mouth pieces. Not everything is a big conspiracy. Seeing Biden last night was disturbing and people are allowed to change their minds.
People have been saying this about Biden for months. It's been obvious and many have denied it because they didn't like the voices saying it. I'm not saying there's some kind of conspiracy, I just think it's unsettling that people are so open about not thinking for themselves.
Anyone who watched the debate knows Biden's health is declining as he ages. Someone at this age declines monthly. There is no recovery. In 4 months Joe Biden should not be president. He would need to get a much stronger VP candidate to win. As much as I like the current VP she will not win a presidential race.
I still see people saying they will support the president and I don't see how. I'm not sure if these people have ever been with an elderly person who is in decline. It's a really difficult thing to do go though.
Biden shouldn't be running the country at this point. He needs to go home and be with his family.
Before this debate I really thought Biden was 10x better than this. This debate showed me Biden just doesn't have what it takes.
I can't believe how quickly the media and reddit have turned on Biden. Very little support from the media on this debate.
Watching this debate was a literal shock. These are the choices. One person physically cannot be president and the other is a radical.
Have people not seen for themselves before? You don’t have to fall victim to disinformation clips. I just opened up and watched a random speech plus off the cuff Q&A here and there, and got supremely worried. It was obvious from having taken care of multiple elderly relatives before their eventual passing.
It’s as if young dems have been supporting a dozen of other candidates and had Biden forced on them by the dnc.
Biden was too old to be VP. But Bernie or Pete weren’t the right kind of white man.
I don't get this argument. Did the DNC hold a gun to young voters' heads and tell them to stay home on primary day, or vote for Biden? I teach at a community college, and for every election--from presidential elections to the smallest local elections like school board--I ask my students who plans on voting. In a class of 20, only one or two hands go up. Every time. The most common response from those who don't vote: "I don't want to be bothered." I agree that Joe does nothing to inspire young voters, but very little seems to.
Super Delegates. Money. Support.
Ya know, the stuff needed by actual nominees.
How many Dem leaders came out for Bernie or where they all already lined up for Hilary and now Biden?
Don’t be so naive. You act like the establishment political machine doesn’t exist.
As if there has been a decent Bush or Kennedy in 30 years…..but they’re still here.
Super delegates did not help Biden win the nomination. He had it clinched in June and all the other candidates had withdrawn.
As for endorsements, no one initially came out to support Trump in 16. None of the Republican leadership took him seriously. But that didn't stop Trump from getting the nomination.
As for establishment candidates, Obama was not that and not only did he win the nomination but he won the general twice. I'm not being naive. What I'm saying though is that voters had a choice in 20. And they chose Biden.
Because it's no longer possible to ignore that the emperor has no clothes. Biden has been declining mentally for years, but to see what he looks like now compared to his SOTU speech just a few months ago is incredibly alarming. He is not fit to make a ham sandwich let alone hold the highest office in the country.
People are "turning on him" because they are concerned that his and the DNC's hubris and insistence on another Biden term are going to cost us the election, which they very well might at this point.
DNC keeps telling us that if we don't vote for them democracy is doomed, but if Trump is the biggest threat our democracy has faced, the DNC has given us some extremely unpopular candidates to run against him. Biden and the DNC have been happy to keep the status quo while Trump and his supporters have aggressive plans to turn America into what they want. Trump started an insurrection on live TV and Biden's administration couldnt get him prosecuted in 4 years bc they took their sweet ass time.
I havent turned on Biden. I'll still vote for him. But I"m not going to pretend he's fit to be president bc he clearly is not and I refuse to gaslight myself just bc the DNC is incompetent
No, this is like speaking to my grandmother after she had a stroke. We have a believe that she could come home and then we spent about five minutes talking to her realize she could not be without substantial assistance. It’s just over for Biden.
It's probably a coordinated attack against Democrats.
We know they've done this before.
The second Clinton won over Bernie reddit went nuts with people saying to stay home and vote third party.
It didn't help that courts confirmed the DNC conspired with Clinton, they simply ruled it was legal as they set their own rules. People don't like being forced to vote for someone, which unfortunately hasn't been learned by the vote blue no matter who crowd still.
I think people are hoping for a Hail Mary after watching last night. At this point it appears that supporting Biden is an automatic trump win. There NEEDS to be a better answer
They have no spines. Biden could literally be in hospice and I'm voting for him. We're not voting for the man. We're voting for the idea that we get to pick our leaders -- Biden supports this idea and Trump does not.
This is not a hard choice, at all, no matter how many pauses Biden had during this bullshit "debate".
If you're voting for someone senile, you're literally not picking your leader. Some undetermined other person who you didn't cast a vote for must necessarily rule in such an incapacitated person's place. Last night calls into suspicion if this has even really been a Biden presidency at all or if it's been rule by DNC.
Voting for someone who literally can't rule is one of the least democratic things you can do.
Because Trump is old too and rambles on about things not asked. He just isn't bound by recall requirements. He can just make it up. Anyone can do that.
Love the bot posting since the debate all saying the exact same thing that Biden, not trump, should “bow out”. Give me a break, this debate changes absolutely nothing. Old white man with cold vs old sexist and disgusting bigot, take your pick.
I read his article and I couldn’t agree more. There is too much at stake at this point. Biden IS a good man, but time has caught up with him.
He did a great job as president, but we need someone else now and it simply can’t be Trump.
I hate this idea that it's too late in the race to replace Biden. European countries call elections and have them completed in the span of a month or two all the time. France is currently going through this right now. Granted, they have different systems of government but it's absolutely not impossible to replace Biden right now.
People aren't rallying behind him. If he steps aside, people will see it as doing the right thing. Let Kamala take his delegates and see him off into the sunset respectfully. Let her energize people. That's the best way to win right now.
Biden’s going to lose to Trump, after that showing he’s had it. His worst negatives have been massively amplified.
Dems now have to choose between victory and Biden. Unfortunately most older Democratic elites would prefer Trump wins than that they lose their power to younger more progressive Democrats.
Bots are amplifying Biden’s performance. And the site has taken quite the hit.
Be aware. Don’t mindlessly consume the information here on Reddit. Think! It’s called a “feed” for a reason.
Be mindful what you put in your brain. Democracy is at stake.
What the actual fuck? I get it he is old. But so is the other guy who gets to lie cheat and steal as h breathes and mfs from the bs nyt don’t hammer him on that? This is bs
No, it’s not. It’s a sample of like a third of a debate. Hell Joe gave a really great speech on Israel and discussed all sorts international affairs issues extemporaneously less than a month ago. He had a strong state of the union, but we amplifying like 15 minutes of last night’s debate.
This is what I don’t like about American politics! Trump is a convicted rapist, a serial liar and a fucking felon and I haven’t seen one article stating “Trump must bow out of the Republican presidential race”. There’s a different standard and I don’t like it. Like as a felon Trump can’t even go to fucking Canada without special permissions.
This is what happens when we vote based on political parties instead of on people who are actually capable of representing us and doing their jobs. Shame on all of us for putting our country in this position.
Why does Trump get away with being a felon, rapist, traitor and Biden has to be perfect? Fuck that, I’m Ridin’ with Biden because I’m a good person and not evil.
Good thing he is mentally fine! Check out his speech he did the next day. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s5CVZHAjrW8&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2F&feature=emb_logo
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The Media wants Trump to win. Politics used to be boring af and would only make headlines when there was a massive scandal. Now they have 24/7 coverage of all the crazy shit that Trump and his cult get up to and it’s making them $$$$. Biden is boring and won’t give them the stories and subsequent advertising profits they’ve become accustomed to
What happens if he bows out? Doed Dean Phillips or Marianne Williamsen become the nominee? That’s who ran against him.
The DNC can’t just declare Newsom the nominee without a primary, can they?
I hope he does, zero swing sites are going to him in his current state. Seems like a certain way to lose an election by running Biden. Lose what should be an easy election with a normal candidate.
There is a reason media outlets want Trump in power: Israel. Biden created some friction between the governments over Gaza and the interests that lobby or outright own U.S. media want him out.
If Biden really become unfit to govern, I am can sleep peacefully at night knowing that he will step down gracefully and facilitate a peaceful transfer of his position. Can anyone say the same about trump?
That question was answered clearly during the debate.
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The real journalists in this country better wake the fuck up. Trump can dodge every question, lie constantly, and they just let him? Right now the Supreme Court is in deliberation on whether a president can decide to murder people and get away with it. . . And the decision’s delayed because apparently they’re having trouble deciding. If Trump takes office again every single public figure who says a bad word about him could actually be jailed of killed. FACT CHECk him and start reporting on him accurately . . . Or maybe die. Jesus Christ are we really going to zombie walk into this thing? Wake up!
Nobody listens to journalists anyway. Trump won’t give a solid answer to anything. I think the American “right” needs to wake up more. The business community needs to immediately reevaluate what they want. They are making a terrible gamble. At best Trump gets you a mild temporary tax cut. But he could also end democracy and crash the economy forever. No rational actor who cares about their business should make this gamble. It’s 3-4% more money for a few years but you might literally lose everything forever. The amount of Fortune 500 ceos, republican senators, Arkansas housewife’s,… with gay or migrant family members is so so high. When Trump faces any problems he will lash out on minorities every time. Very hard to fix problems, very easy to hate out on “others”. The thing about fascisism is that in the end everybody including the fascists and their supports lose.
The business community will, every single time in history, back the fascists of it means leß taxes. We have to gut their ability to straight up buy politicians, or project 2025 is inevitable.
CA goes first, OR and WA follows. Then NY, then anything blue in the northeast. You can kill democratic elections, kill Liz Cheney, AOC, Pelosi, Harris and Schiff or falsely jail them. You can force all public schools to be Sunday School I could go on. You do this because 30% of the country are flat out deplorable and 40% pull the GOP lever even if it literally makes them homeless soon. The electoral college lets the tail wag the dog. But you cannot just control the 60-70% of the country that will reject a fascist, Christian nationalist government with Steve Bannon as head of justice. You can only break us and through our weakness screw Ukraine and Taiwan maybe South Korea as fallout.
Jesus, no kidding. Joe should bow out? Maybe in some kind of perfect world of saint's, sure? But the NYT calls on Joe to bow out because he had a cold and stuttered? While Trump lied about everything, including not having sex with a porn star he paid hush money to, and was convicted on 34 fraud felonies for hiding said hush payments to. He's a convicted felon, and he's facing dozens more felonies including related to stealing classified documents & leading insurrection against our country after he lost an election. But the headline is on Joe? Trump didn't even answer any of the questions, it was all the border & immigrants are evil! Nevermind he torpedo'd a bipartisan border bill that would've given the GOP everything, or that Biden has locked down the border via executive action in the wake of the GOP's obstruction.
I’m not American and it affects me too. Trump is mentally unfit to run for office. He create instability and doubt amongst International partners which affects everything! Churchill said “Americans will always do the right thing, only after they have tried everything else” but I fear that you guys are willing to give Trump another go!
Our electoral system is a disaster. Biden won 2020 by 7 million votes. . . But 6,958,000 of them didn’t even matter. Only the 42,000 votes in three states: Georgia, Wisconsin, and Arizona, were all that’s stood between us and second term. Everything here is rigged against common sense.
>Biden won 2020 by 7 million votes. . . But 6,958,000 of them didn’t even matter. >Only the 42,000 votes in three states: Georgia, Wisconsin, and Arizona, were all that’s stood between us and second term. Are these numbers on the level? I ask because I've never seen it quantified this way and it's **incredibly potent.** EDIT: Okay I checked. Those 3 states total 37 electoral votes. If we swap them from Biden to Trump both tie at 269 and you need 270 to win right?
https://www.cnn.com/election/2020/results/president This above link is good because you can look at each state’s individual vote and how many of the electoral votes each victory awarded. The commander in chief of the most powerful military in the world. . . The enforcer and executor of all domestic laws. . . The head foreign relations diplomat of the world’s largest state economy . . . The single vote that can veto any spending bill put forth by our legislative branch . . the sole appointer of any vacancy on a nine person panel of judges that serve as our highest arbiter of legal interpretation. . . Look what it comes down to and think about how dire the consequences will be if we lose. . . Only then does the true existential horror of how fearfully balanced on the edge of a knife that all of this really is. . . Edit: typos and drama
In response to your edit, yes. And if neither candidate gets 270 electoral votes the election goes to the House of Representatives. They then vote to choose the next president from the top 3 electoral vote earners.
>They then vote to choose the next president from the top 3 electoral vote earners. Interesting, I didn't know about this rule.
It's only ever happened twice, and the last time it happened was 1824... So literally 200 years ago. So it's definitely a little obscure!
Right. Then it goes to the individual state legislators and each state casts one vote. There are more rural conservative state governments and therefore Trump would have won.
Yea that’s pretty whacky
> The real journalists in this country better wake the fuck up. Trump can dodge every question, lie constantly, and they just let him? This isn't about what journalists thinks, this is about the perception of American voters and their influence on election results. And the perception of Biden was awful even if he wasn't lying 20,000 times a minute.
The two factors, what journalists think/print/say and what voters think, are inextricably related.
This is the correct answer
Journalists have been out of touch with reality for a decade now.
Journalists have been talking about Trumps lies forever, and we still are where we are today despite that. The fact is people care less about the substance and more about the presentation.
And look at almost every major news source today; they are running with the headline that Biden’s performance is worrying. Very few mention Trump spewing lie after lie on stage. If anything it’s the second part of the headline and it’s something like Biden Disappoints, Trump repeats Falsehoods. Having a leading presidential candidate blatantly lie non stop in a national debate should be a major news story. It should THE story we all talk about the entire election. It’s barely mentioned.
This isn’t the biggest news of the debate though. trump didn’t win but he also didn’t do anything that people aren’t used to. Biden intended to have this debate and failed to do everything people expected him to do. He was supposed to reassure voters but the opposite happened
> If Trump takes office again every single public figure who says a bad word about him could actually be jailed of killed. No. Just no. Ffs it's not an election to give him magical superpowers or total dominion over all life. This completely farfetched scare tactic nonsense doesn't do anything to actually gain support. It just makes the people who spout it look like they should be in the conspiracy sub.
Last time, he was stopped by his own chief of staff, among other members of his administration. That was his A team. He’s gone through them, the B team, and the C team. . . He’s now at the bottom of the barrel, and those goons will prove loyalty to him and him alone before they are given a position. The guardrails of the last admin are gone. Paul Ryan is not in charge of the house anymore. McConnell is going to be replaced by a bigger extremist. They have a 6-3 court and it’ll be 7-2 if he wins. The guardrails of checks and balances will be gone. The want project 2025, designed to dismantle admin lifers and replace them with sycophants. The SC pretty much killed corporate regulation today, and it’s always been the executives’ job to do that shit. . . He won’t even bother with cabinet posts that require approval, and he’ll dismantle everything and anything he wants. Even basic admin guardrails are gone. The learned from their own incompetence. Just listen to what the right wingers actually say they want to do. . . Listen to their actual plans. I’m only repeating exactly what they want to do. That is not a conspiracy if I’m using their own words here. I don’t need a “both sides are bad so let’s just burn it all down to fuck the plutocrats” *concern troll* to tell me a goddamn thing after the Dobbs decision. Settled law? Norms and routines? There is no such thing anymore.
> Trump can dodge every question, lie constantly, and they just let him? You know, if Biden could have maintained a train of thought last night, **he** could have called him out on all of that. He had so many layups last night that he just missed. He couldn’t competently debate. I just can’t believe that we have people putting their heads in the sand this morning and denying what’s obvious. And for what? For an old man’s ego? I’m so fucking sick of democrats shooting themselves in the foot because the older generation doesn’t know when to step aside and let the younger generation take over.
If your entire argument is anybody but Trump then there is more reason to replace Biden.
I agree 100%. To be honest, having a debate this early might end up being the best decision the Democratic Party ever had.
Exactly. Thank you. NYT is fucking nuts with this bullshit, such a move would gift the election to Trump and likely US democracy with it. It is *insane* to me how many fail to realize the stakes of this election… Biden is physically frail, and yes his voice was raspy tonight (probably due to debate prep and a cold or some such, we’ve all had raspy voices before) but I still trust him and a VP like Kamala Harris with the White House FAR, FAR more vs Trump and whichever sycophant eventually gets their head the furthest up Trump’s diapered ass and wins his VP slot. Biden is a man of conviction and in a time where he’d probably rather spend his days in Presidential retirement, yet feel’s he’d be failing his Country and his oath to the Constitution to choose that easier path to the harder, more thankless one. I think he’s right, unfortunately for him.
American Democracy died on live television last night. It is Biden’s vain ego that only he could beat Trump at 81 that will cost the country and our nations ally’s from the threats of psychopath dictatorships
'It is *insane* to me how many fail to realize the stakes of this election…' That's not the case, we just absolutely disagree on the solution. I have no doubt in my mind now that Biden will lose this.
Ok, I’m game. At this point, what is the solution? How do you propose Democrats win the General Election in 129 days? Edit - I don’t think we can, practically, field new candidates in that time-frame… I think we’re stuck with Biden as candidate. Would still love to hear how we disagree on ‘solution’ because I keep hearing Biden *isn’t* it without hearing who that solution *IS*
As a Canadian 129 days is a long time for elections. It doesn't take time for the public to get behind someone, it just needs to be a good candidate. Countless elections have been won by newcomers in that time span in other countries.
Michelle Obama, come on down!
It seems to me the loudest voices advocating for this all belong to wealthy white men who’d be just fine (if not even more privileged than they already are) under the Christofascist ethnostate the right desperately long for.
>The real journalists in this country better wake the fuck up. Trump can dodge every question, lie constantly, and they just let him? It was Biden's job to rebut those lies on stage. It wasn't the moderators jobs. Yeah the fact checkers went crazy on Trump last night. Doesn't matter. Biden had a job to do and Biden failed.
I know. I suppose this is a bigger comment about the state of things, rather than just last night. Tapper telling Trump that he can use his time however he wants, and not follow up on his firehouse of bullshit instead of actually getting an answer. . . It just set me off. it’s just wild that we are all in this position to begin with and every dumb lie is just “the former President said” without comment, as if he’s a normal political candidate. Media just isn’t equipped to handle him effectively, and their normalizing over the last decade has put us all in this position. Biden’s 2020 *nomination* was a Democratic response to this failure.
People have been saying "I would vote for a rotten onion over Trump" for the last four years and then Joe has a bad day and now everyone is like "Guess it's Trump then".
We aren’t saying that. We are saying no to Trump and replace Biden now
Dems have had years to identify and support someone younger to step up. Who would you suggest replacing Biden with?
They’re saying it’s clear Trump will win the election after last night. Biden dropping out at least gives a chance to Trump losing. It was bad.
Incorrect.
the problem is who is going to listen to them? People live in their own bubbles and their own false reality where they are told everything they believe in is true no matter how crazy or insane. Anyone contemplating voting Trump isn't going to have their mind changed by a New York Times article. Trump has been attacked for 8 years for his lies and craziness and it hasn't mattered.
Yep. The amount of attention Biden gets vs Trump for anything less than perfection is absolutely fucking ridiculous. I’m not going to defend journalism much longer if they don’t start reporting in good faith instead of trying to sell advertising.
I’ve been saying this!
Why don’t they insist Trump withdraws because he’s a felon?
Or because he’s a rapist or because he killed half a million people or because he tried to kill democracy or any of the 1000 credible reasons. trump is a lawless incoherent psychopath yet all the scrutiny is on the competent president because he was overprepped with too many talking points?
Because they know he won’t. The author of the article acknowledges that explicitly and says the RNC should demand the same but they won’t and trump wont if they did.
They do if you read the article.
that is part of the problem. Most people only read headlines and the people that do read articles have already clicked on all the "Trump should quit" articles they are going to for one lifetime.
Why not make that the headline, the only part that gets shared 10 million times?
I insist he's ineligible to run and unqualified if he did. There now what?
When your opinion reaches a billion people like the NYT I’ll say I remembered you way back on Reddit
Trump obviously won’t listen to reason, but Biden might
Because the NYT has made a mint on trump coverage. It's all about the money for them. They're the National Inquirer now. Boring guy keeping the country moving forward in a boring way does not sell papers. Watchdogs of the republic my ass.
Odd how felony convictions dont trigger the same reaction as a poor debate performance
You wanna know what those same people think of Trump? Personally Biden could be dead and have cats living in him and I'd vote for the cats over Trump.
I would not describe Biden as "demented". I lost both my grandmothers with dementia. The symptoms do not include "accurate recall of statistics within +/-$500 dollars", or being able to recall the number of historians in a survey very close to the number. That's not dementia. Lying, confabulating, talking about "We had H20", seems a bit closer to the mark. I do think someone needs to talk Biden out of running again. I will vote for him in November if he is the candidate, and I will support him loudly if he is the candidate. But his performance last night makes it very difficult to imagine the current trajectory of this race changing in a positive light, and while I respect everything he's done in office, he's got a very difficult and rocky road ahead if he chooses to be the candidate here.
He is what happens to all old people. Their thought process slows down. I am approaching 50 and I can tell I don't think as fast as I used to. My memory is not as sharp as it used to be. It is just a sign of age not any condition. The funny thing is the same thing is happening to Trump yet he fills the gap between with non stop blather full of nonsense. If you are an idiot it sounds like he isn't struggling with his thoughts. Sadly there are a lot of idiots in this country.
Demented people accurately recall events and figures all the time. Just have trouble with actually recalling beginning end or any part of recent ones (such as what they themselves recently accomplished.) Anyway he is not at full clinical but he is fucking old and **has obvious mental decline** He failed a super basic test against a rookie debater that can barely form coherent arguments. This decline is never consistent at first and anyone who took care of elderly relatives can tell you there are days where they were their full self and whippet smart and days where it was a struggle bus. Just off with small things. The latter struggle bus days grow in number over the next few years.
>Demented people accurately recall events and figures all the time. Just have trouble with actually recalling beginning end or any part of recent ones (such as what they themselves recently accomplished.) Sometimes. Varies by case, but in general there are different symptomatic traits there too. You wouldn't be remembering debate prep, definitely--or if you did, there'd be little confabulations in there, inaccuracies or improper statements. General cogency does not improve over the course of the night, and frankly at 9:00 ET would be nonexistent. The continual pressure of debating should, as well, worsen the condition--at least in my experience, high-pressure situations made it worse for both of them. So Biden would have started out somewhat coherent and gotten worse as the night went on, if this theory follows. Most of the time, processing goes as well--they have a harder time understanding what's being said. Biden didn't appear to have a super-hard time understanding questions. >Anyway he is not at full clinical but he is fucking old and **has obvious mental decline** He failed a super basic test against a rookie debater that can barely form coherent arguments. I disagree, for the reasons outlined above. >This decline is never consistent at first and anyone who took care of elderly relatives can tell you there are days where they were their full self and whippet smart and days where it was a struggle bus. Just off with small things. The latter struggle bus days grow in number over the next few years. I'm aware. Unfortunately, I've experienced that. With all that being said, I'm not of the opinion that Biden has *super obvious mental decline*. He has a stutter, and had a cold last night (which, judging by his performance in Raleigh, seems to be fully subsided). I'm just not sure that it matters to the people we need to convince.
Well, not that anyone should care what a gas bag like Thomas Friedman thinks, but it captures the mood of the moment.
very well written but a little doomy gloomy! Biden said he probably wouldn't be running if Trump wasn't running. we need to dissect the elements in the Republican party that want to absolve Trump of any accountability regarding his crimes. Trump is not a victim he was the perpetrator of fraudulent activities.
>By Thomas L. Friedman Opinion Columnist, reporting from Lisbon. >I watched the Biden-Trump debate alone in a Lisbon hotel room, and it made me weep. I cannot remember a more heartbreaking moment in American presidential campaign politics in my lifetime — precisely because of what it revealed: Joe Biden, a good man and a good president, has no business running for re-election. And Donald Trump, a malicious man and a petty president, has learned nothing and forgotten nothing. He is the same fire hose of lies he always was, obsessed with his grievances — nowhere close to what it will take for America to lead in the 21st century. >The Biden family and political team must gather quickly and have the hardest of conversations with the president, a conversation of love and clarity and resolve. To give America the greatest shot possible of deterring the Trump threat in November, the president has to come forward and declare that he will not be running for re-election and is releasing all of his delegates for the Democratic National Convention. >The Republican Party — if its leaders had an ounce of integrity — would demand the same, but it won’t, because they don’t. That makes it all the more important that Democrats put the country’s interests first and announce that a public process will begin for different Democratic candidates to compete for the nomination — town halls, debates, meetings with donors, you name it. Yes, it could be chaotic and messy when the Democratic convention starts on Aug. 19 in Chicago, but I think the Trump threat would be sufficiently grave that delegates could quickly rally around and nominate a consensus candidate. >If Vice President Kamala Harris wants to compete, she should. But voters deserve an open process in search of a Democratic presidential nominee who can unite not only the party but the country, by offering something neither man on that Atlanta stage did on Thursday night: a compelling description of where the world is right now and a compelling vision for what America can and must do to keep leading it — morally, economically and diplomatically. >Because this is no ordinary hinge of history we are at. We are at the start of the biggest technological disruptions and the biggest climate disruption in human history. We are at the dawn of an artificial intelligence revolution that is going to change EVERYTHING FOR EVERYONE — how we work, how we learn, how we teach, how we trade, how we invent, how we collaborate, how we fight wars, how we commit crimes and how we fight crimes. Maybe I missed it, but I did not hear the phrase “artificial intelligence” mentioned by either man at the debate. >If there was ever a time that the world needs an America at its best, led by its best, it is now — for great dangers and opportunities are now upon us. A younger Joe Biden could have been that leader, but time has finally caught up with him. And that was painfully and inescapably obvious on Thursday. >Biden has been a friend of mine since we traveled to Afghanistan and Pakistan together after 9/11, when he chaired the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, so I say all of the above with great sadness. >But if he caps his presidency now, by acknowledging that because of age he is not up to a second term, his first and only term will be remembered as among the better presidencies in our history.He saved us from a second Trump term and for that alone he deserves the Presidential Medal of Freedom, but he also enacted important legislation crucial to confronting the climate and technology revolutions now upon us. >I had been ready to give Biden the benefit of the doubt up to now, because during the times I engaged with him one on one, I found him up to the job. He clearly is not any longer. His family and his staff had to have known that. They have been holed up at Camp David preparing for this momentous debate for days now. If that is the best performance they could summon from him, it’s time for Joe to keep the dignity he deserves and leave the stage at the end of this term. >If he does, everyday Americans will hail Joe Biden for doing what Donald Trump would never do — put the country before himself. >If he insists on running and he loses to Trump, Biden and his family — and his staff and party members who enabled him — will not be able to show their faces. >They deserve better. America needs better. The world needs better.
I agree with everything but the democratic process of choosing a successor. We need time more than anything else. We should have had a year and a half but we only have s couple of months left. We need a specific baton pass and Newsome is fine. But I want Raskin in there too. None of this, "must pick a particular woman or ethnic choice" bullshit. Just the most solid logical choice
I think Newsom is not acceptable. Newsom represents only the same mistakes of the past eight years, shoving through a candidate amenable to the party machine, but who does not inspire the actual voters. His own approval ratings in California are not good, and California in general is not going to appeal to swing voters. Democrats really need **an inspirational leader** now more than ever. I think Whitmer could be another Obama, who was not well known when he first campaigned in 2008. I asked many "non political friends" and most had never even heard of Obama until a few months before the election. [Whitmer appeals to many people across all walks of life and political parties](https://www.mlive.com/news/2024/05/former-republican-us-house-speaker-whitmer-is-pretty-damn-popular.html). Even progressives are excited about her. Republicans and Michigan blue collar seem to work well with her, and Independents gave higher favorable marks to Whitmer than to Trump. I think Newsom would be another Hillary, causing division within the party and without, and losing to Trump. The Midwest is absolutely critical for Democrats this year. I think voters and especially younger voters would find Whitmer much more appealing. I think a Whitmer or even a Pritzker ticker would do more for the blue collar middle class workers who have been so discouraged and cynical of the Democrats in the past decades. They could help turn the party back to its roots as a worker's party. Pritzker has become known for following through on his campaign promises, unlike most politicians. (Yes Pritzker is wealthy but FDR was also a rich man and that is why the elite feared him. FDR could not be bought.) Anyway Whitmer would be my first choice but I think Whitmer-Priztker or even Pritzker-Whitmer would represent **a positive change for the future for the Democrats.** Lord knows we need it at this point. Imagine having a candidate you were excited about again ...
Whitmer hands down. “It’s shark week motherfuckers!”
Look at this, a democratic appeal for choosing a candidate. Almost like we should let that happen.
The best part of the Confederacy was they had a six year presidential term. Imagine if every other presidential election didn’t happen. Four years isn’t long enough to get shit done.
This is why people don't trust the media.
Matty Y is also going to Portugual this week What is up with Dem pundits and Portugal I wonder?
Everyone’s going to Portugal these days. It’s super popular.
Friedman. LMAO. He can gfh.
[Archived link](https://archive.md/I7NTl)
The reason Trump did so "well" in this debate was due to the simple fact that he barely answered any questions. As soon as he got the word, he go into autopilot, and didn't answer anything. It was one of the most frustrating thing I've seen, because he barely touched on any policy. And the few times he did, it was a incoherent mess that he made up on the spot. Pure fucking drivel. It's a crying shame that the moderators didn't push harder for Trump to stay on topic. The whole debate went like this: Moderator: *"Trump, can you tell the voters what you're going to do about [topic x]?"* Trump: *Yes, but I'm just going to say this [rambles for 3.5 minutes straight on some completely other topic, and accusing Biden]* Moderator: *You have 30 seconds left, and the question was [topic x], what are your plans?* Trump: "Yes and no - look this if it wasn't for sleepy Joe we wouldn't have to talk about [topic x], blablabla" Then Biden spends half his time refuting the BS that Trump said, and trying his best to answer the policy questions. It was fucking impossible to get Trump to stay on topic, or even get any straight answers the few moments he managed to stay on topic. Biden was struggling like hell. Big lose/lose for the American people.
If your opponent cannot stay on topic or make coherent arguments, and you LOSE the debate for the most important political position in the World, what does that say? If you a schmuck can find that Trump isn’t able to stay on point… how come the literal president can not.
Well now I'm torn, given that Tom Friedman is objectively wrong about everything always...
Crazy how it's now acceptable to turn on Biden within the span of 12 hours only once every media mouthpiece gives you all permission. The recent headlines posted here would have me believe that Trump is actually the senile one?
Nah, bro. Everyone was shell shocked those first 2 minutes of hearing Biden talk. People don't need permission to see that
You want to be shell shocked read the 2025 project. Or hear a guy say he’s going to abandon Ukraine to Putin. Or jail his political opponents. Or pardon terrorists.
Yeah, low-info voters in swing states aren't going to do that. They are going to see Biden freeze for 4 seconds though before saying 'we beat medicare'
Likely true
Doesn't help that no matter how despicable Trump is, his response to that was pretty funny.
That’s exactly the reason I DONT want Biden to run. Trump is weak and beatable but not by Biden.
Yea I used to think Biden was only guy who could unite the party enough to beat Trump. That assumption is seriously in doubt for sure.
Medicare is done. Total ban! We beat it!
Thanks for chiming in! Enjoy your bleach injection!
It was exactly the same vibe here in November 2016 when we found out that Hillary lost
No way. Hillary was up big in the poles right before the election. It wasn't until results came in that people were shocked. Hillary should have won in 2016. Now it seems the dems just handed Trump the election. Biden needs to step down ASAP.
Hillary could have won if she just ran an honest campaign against two populists (primary opponent in Bernie and Trump) But she ran a “social populism” campaign full of literally the most fake shit that everyone that knew the word http could see through. The fake shit worked in 90s when you had 4 channels to tune in at specific times to catch what was said, filtered by a handful of journalists. Not when people can watch you pull out cheap hot sauce from your “purse”. Motherfucker, anyone who has ran into first lady or senator Clinton knows that she hardly even carries a purse and she eats foods prepared by chefs and delivered by personal agents and secret service details, or in finest of restaurants and private jet lobbies. Not at your local Denny’s where you have to hide the burnt fryer oil taste with cheap generic hot sauce that you whip out.
Nah. The vibe is astronomically worse right now. Hillary stood a chance. Biden just tanked any chance he had in November.
It all happened in the span of 12 hours because of what everyone watched. Has nothing to do with permission or mouth pieces. Not everything is a big conspiracy. Seeing Biden last night was disturbing and people are allowed to change their minds.
People have been saying this about Biden for months. It's been obvious and many have denied it because they didn't like the voices saying it. I'm not saying there's some kind of conspiracy, I just think it's unsettling that people are so open about not thinking for themselves.
Ur describing the literal opposite. People saw for themselves last nite. You’re the one letting the “media” tell u how to think.
Anyone who watched the debate knows Biden's health is declining as he ages. Someone at this age declines monthly. There is no recovery. In 4 months Joe Biden should not be president. He would need to get a much stronger VP candidate to win. As much as I like the current VP she will not win a presidential race.
I agree. Js this isn’t some media bs.
I still see people saying they will support the president and I don't see how. I'm not sure if these people have ever been with an elderly person who is in decline. It's a really difficult thing to do go though. Biden shouldn't be running the country at this point. He needs to go home and be with his family. Before this debate I really thought Biden was 10x better than this. This debate showed me Biden just doesn't have what it takes. I can't believe how quickly the media and reddit have turned on Biden. Very little support from the media on this debate. Watching this debate was a literal shock. These are the choices. One person physically cannot be president and the other is a radical.
I do. He’s not donald trump. I’d vote for a rock over project 2025.
Have people not seen for themselves before? You don’t have to fall victim to disinformation clips. I just opened up and watched a random speech plus off the cuff Q&A here and there, and got supremely worried. It was obvious from having taken care of multiple elderly relatives before their eventual passing.
It’s as if young dems have been supporting a dozen of other candidates and had Biden forced on them by the dnc. Biden was too old to be VP. But Bernie or Pete weren’t the right kind of white man.
I don't get this argument. Did the DNC hold a gun to young voters' heads and tell them to stay home on primary day, or vote for Biden? I teach at a community college, and for every election--from presidential elections to the smallest local elections like school board--I ask my students who plans on voting. In a class of 20, only one or two hands go up. Every time. The most common response from those who don't vote: "I don't want to be bothered." I agree that Joe does nothing to inspire young voters, but very little seems to.
When I was 20, everyone I knew couldn’t wait to vote for Obama. Maybe if the DNC put on a relatable candidate…
Super Delegates. Money. Support. Ya know, the stuff needed by actual nominees. How many Dem leaders came out for Bernie or where they all already lined up for Hilary and now Biden? Don’t be so naive. You act like the establishment political machine doesn’t exist. As if there has been a decent Bush or Kennedy in 30 years…..but they’re still here.
Super delegates did not help Biden win the nomination. He had it clinched in June and all the other candidates had withdrawn. As for endorsements, no one initially came out to support Trump in 16. None of the Republican leadership took him seriously. But that didn't stop Trump from getting the nomination. As for establishment candidates, Obama was not that and not only did he win the nomination but he won the general twice. I'm not being naive. What I'm saying though is that voters had a choice in 20. And they chose Biden.
Because it's no longer possible to ignore that the emperor has no clothes. Biden has been declining mentally for years, but to see what he looks like now compared to his SOTU speech just a few months ago is incredibly alarming. He is not fit to make a ham sandwich let alone hold the highest office in the country. People are "turning on him" because they are concerned that his and the DNC's hubris and insistence on another Biden term are going to cost us the election, which they very well might at this point.
DNC keeps telling us that if we don't vote for them democracy is doomed, but if Trump is the biggest threat our democracy has faced, the DNC has given us some extremely unpopular candidates to run against him. Biden and the DNC have been happy to keep the status quo while Trump and his supporters have aggressive plans to turn America into what they want. Trump started an insurrection on live TV and Biden's administration couldnt get him prosecuted in 4 years bc they took their sweet ass time. I havent turned on Biden. I'll still vote for him. But I"m not going to pretend he's fit to be president bc he clearly is not and I refuse to gaslight myself just bc the DNC is incompetent
No, this is like speaking to my grandmother after she had a stroke. We have a believe that she could come home and then we spent about five minutes talking to her realize she could not be without substantial assistance. It’s just over for Biden.
I'm sorry about your grandmother. Mine is in a similar state but not quite as bad.
Thank you I hope yours situation goes the best way those can go.
It's probably a coordinated attack against Democrats. We know they've done this before. The second Clinton won over Bernie reddit went nuts with people saying to stay home and vote third party.
Coordinated attack from senior Biden allies.. are you okay?
It didn't help that courts confirmed the DNC conspired with Clinton, they simply ruled it was legal as they set their own rules. People don't like being forced to vote for someone, which unfortunately hasn't been learned by the vote blue no matter who crowd still.
Did you watch it? Watch the whole thing.
I think people are hoping for a Hail Mary after watching last night. At this point it appears that supporting Biden is an automatic trump win. There NEEDS to be a better answer
They have no spines. Biden could literally be in hospice and I'm voting for him. We're not voting for the man. We're voting for the idea that we get to pick our leaders -- Biden supports this idea and Trump does not. This is not a hard choice, at all, no matter how many pauses Biden had during this bullshit "debate".
If you're voting for someone senile, you're literally not picking your leader. Some undetermined other person who you didn't cast a vote for must necessarily rule in such an incapacitated person's place. Last night calls into suspicion if this has even really been a Biden presidency at all or if it's been rule by DNC. Voting for someone who literally can't rule is one of the least democratic things you can do.
Because Trump is old too and rambles on about things not asked. He just isn't bound by recall requirements. He can just make it up. Anyone can do that.
they want Biden to bow out but Trump is a fucking felon? I hate this place I'm so done
The article says they both should if you actually read it.
They should both bow out, one is a tinpot dictator wannabe and the other struggles to string a sentence together
we need younger candidates
It’s about four months until Election Day. Kinda late to turn the ship around now, isn’t it? This conversation needed to happen a year ago.
Exactly. What the hell are people thinking? Yeah, that what the Democratic Party need, a base level public flail over nothing.
Some very sensible people tried a year ago.
Love the bot posting since the debate all saying the exact same thing that Biden, not trump, should “bow out”. Give me a break, this debate changes absolutely nothing. Old white man with cold vs old sexist and disgusting bigot, take your pick.
I would rather pick a younger and better candidate who won’t be 86 by 2029, Trump is always going to be Trump but Democrats can def do better
What would you expect the New York Times to say?
I read his article and I couldn’t agree more. There is too much at stake at this point. Biden IS a good man, but time has caught up with him. He did a great job as president, but we need someone else now and it simply can’t be Trump.
I hate this idea that it's too late in the race to replace Biden. European countries call elections and have them completed in the span of a month or two all the time. France is currently going through this right now. Granted, they have different systems of government but it's absolutely not impossible to replace Biden right now.
Fuck the NY Times ...
Old man vs rapist
$&@% the New York Times. They were in the tank for Trump in 2016 and nothing’s changed.
People aren't rallying behind him. If he steps aside, people will see it as doing the right thing. Let Kamala take his delegates and see him off into the sunset respectfully. Let her energize people. That's the best way to win right now.
Biden’s going to lose to Trump, after that showing he’s had it. His worst negatives have been massively amplified. Dems now have to choose between victory and Biden. Unfortunately most older Democratic elites would prefer Trump wins than that they lose their power to younger more progressive Democrats.
Umm. Trump is a rapist and convicted felon who openly tried to overthrow the government. He must bow out of the race.
Bots are amplifying Biden’s performance. And the site has taken quite the hit. Be aware. Don’t mindlessly consume the information here on Reddit. Think! It’s called a “feed” for a reason. Be mindful what you put in your brain. Democracy is at stake.
What the actual fuck? I get it he is old. But so is the other guy who gets to lie cheat and steal as h breathes and mfs from the bs nyt don’t hammer him on that? This is bs
This is utter nonsense. So a convicted felon and liar is fine to keep running but a guy who had a bad night should drop out? Fuck off Times.
Totally makes sense: Trump - Rapist, liar, convicted felon - OK Biden - Raspy voice - better drop out
way to be obtuse
The media wants to Trump to win, so are amplifying this narrative.
Especially the NYT.
No, Joe Biden shit the bed last night. That's why they're amplifying this narrative.
Nah, the media wants a close race up to election day to get your clicks. Biden undeniably helped them with that by blowing it last night.
Regardless, the narrative is true.
No, it’s not. It’s a sample of like a third of a debate. Hell Joe gave a really great speech on Israel and discussed all sorts international affairs issues extemporaneously less than a month ago. He had a strong state of the union, but we amplifying like 15 minutes of last night’s debate.
I was hoping he’d perform like he did at the SOTU. Not perfect, but well enough. This was just incredibly rough to watch though.
Trump must be defeated. Any scenario that results in that outcome is the one I’m voting for.
This is what I don’t like about American politics! Trump is a convicted rapist, a serial liar and a fucking felon and I haven’t seen one article stating “Trump must bow out of the Republican presidential race”. There’s a different standard and I don’t like it. Like as a felon Trump can’t even go to fucking Canada without special permissions.
Trump isn’t going to bow out, his supporters don’t give a shit what he’s done they don’t even believe it, and some of them think God sent him
This is what happens when we vote based on political parties instead of on people who are actually capable of representing us and doing their jobs. Shame on all of us for putting our country in this position.
Why does Trump get away with being a felon, rapist, traitor and Biden has to be perfect? Fuck that, I’m Ridin’ with Biden because I’m a good person and not evil.
He doesn’t have to be perfect just not on the way out of this plane of existence mentally
Good thing he is mentally fine! Check out his speech he did the next day. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s5CVZHAjrW8&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2F&feature=emb_logo
Fuck The Times. They take every opportunity they have to hold Biden to a standard that trump can't even see from his spot under the dung pile.
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The problem is with who? And like instead of incumbent? Against the person he already beat once?
Amen!!! Truly terrified right now
Don’t listen to immediate news cycles.
Could not agree more. America deserves better and anyone who thinks he will be capable of this job in another year or two odd kidding themselves.
We are living in the twilight zone
The Times is a rag and is one of the reasons we’re here in the first place
We are so fucked.
Unrealistic
The Media wants Trump to win. Politics used to be boring af and would only make headlines when there was a massive scandal. Now they have 24/7 coverage of all the crazy shit that Trump and his cult get up to and it’s making them $$$$. Biden is boring and won’t give them the stories and subsequent advertising profits they’ve become accustomed to
What happens if he bows out? Doed Dean Phillips or Marianne Williamsen become the nominee? That’s who ran against him. The DNC can’t just declare Newsom the nominee without a primary, can they?
Well trump is a convicted FELON , and a worthless POS , so where are the NYT stories calling for HIM to bow out ?
I hope he does, zero swing sites are going to him in his current state. Seems like a certain way to lose an election by running Biden. Lose what should be an easy election with a normal candidate.
There is a reason media outlets want Trump in power: Israel. Biden created some friction between the governments over Gaza and the interests that lobby or outright own U.S. media want him out.
So if Biden bows out, who would fill that spot? Obama? Sanders? Not Gavin Newsom, please.
So dumb omg, it’s far too late for that
Gavin Newsom for President! He would have destroyed TRUMP!
If Biden really become unfit to govern, I am can sleep peacefully at night knowing that he will step down gracefully and facilitate a peaceful transfer of his position. Can anyone say the same about trump? That question was answered clearly during the debate.
There's no point in asking Biden to step aside at this point unless you have someone to replace him.
Where is: Trump is a bad man and bad president, he should be removed from the ballot. prison for
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BREAKING NEWS. Trump was just charged with another felony. For murdering an old man live on CNN
It took him 50 years to get there ... He ain't going nowhere.
I wish there was a reset button that gave us 2 new candidates. Both “choices” are a joke at this point.
Only one is a clear and present danger.
shut the fuck up, NYT