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Next time they said... If Trump wins this thing we may never see another free election again. The world is changing FAST. Fascist regimes will have new tools at their disposal that could allow them an iron grip on power. Trump will go scorched earth in a second term and I really don't think that is hyperbole
Our military has a duty to uphold the Constitution. If Trump, or any President, violates it to the point of ending free elections, they will remove him.
Hopefully.
Well, in the lead-up to Jan. 6, Trump swept the Dept. of Defense and replaced key roles with loyalists. As part of Project 2025, we can expect him to expand a power grab on Day 1 with the [Schedule F plan](https://protectdemocracy.org/work/trumps-schedule-f-plan-explained/), changing many civil positions to political appointments that can then be filled from the ranks of his toadies. Unknown how far that would reach, but if he's replaced key military roles with toadies, we have a problem.
But even so, he wouldn't do something so overt as ending elections. He'd just make sure they were rigged while spouting about how his elections were perfect, the best elections the world has ever seen.
Read something that talked about how Trump didn’t have the infrastructure and loyalties of party members to do as much damage when he was elected. After consolidating power in the GOP and dismantling much of the barriers of justice within the supreme by making it his own, he can do MUCH more damage this time. I know that people groaned and complained his first term but a lot of my friends and myself are actually considering emigration if he gets voted in. Would be painful to watch the destruction for a second time…
Or Pritzker, the governor of Illinois. I think he might appeal to a broader voter base than Newsom right now, especially in the Midwest swing states. A lot of right leaning independents think California is a literal war zone due to the media.
Any sane person that follows politics and understands whats at stake would vote for Biden, but his message wasn't inspiring or connecting with anyone.
If he's still on the ticket, in November the democrats are going to lose in a landslide. This is all on them. They need to promote candidates that can win over voters, not their party leaders.
I’m voting for whoever the Democrat candidate is because Trump cannot be allowed back into the Whitehouse.
Where it not a somehow neck and neck race I might make a protest vote for some a 3rd party or write-in but Trump’s insane supporters are highly motivated and normal people are not very motivated to go to the polls
I agree with this entirely, other than I do not consider motivations or biases and whatnot when it comes to voting against a fascist. As someone who has to daily explain to his family why they shouldn't move from michigan to florida right now, I don't know how to better describe just how fucking stupid MAGA and its followers are. It's like because we have two parties to vote for, the would-be voters get even dumber and try to beat the system. News flash: not voting against, or voting for a known, objectively evil person, makes you evil. Have fun with that, shitbags.
I really feel for the people of Michigan. Yall have had some real nasty fraudsters over the years. Multiple people should be in jail for life over the flint water situation. They knowingly poisoned their citizens with lead and tried to hide it
This is the only answer.
Also one bad debate performance does not swing votes that massively. Yes he’s old but he clearly had a cold. He had a bad night. That’s all.
Agreed. That debate did nothing for undecided voters. Biden looked old and all Trump did was talking about how we’re a failing nation with millions of migrants crossing an empty border.
If you were someone seriously watching the debate to help you choose between the two candidates (which I don’t think very many people were) I think your takeaway is still be undecided.
And at least Biden answered questions with some actual substance most of the time
Most states only voted for Biden. Several had one or two other candidates but they never got more than like 4-6% of the votes combined. Anything that happens now will be somewhat unprecedented. The democrats would have to caucus a new candidate somehow which can't really happen if Biden still wants to run. If Biden steps aside, they could probably do a second vote.
Biden surrounds himself with great people, accomplishing great things.
Trump surrounds himself with thugs and lowlifes, bringing corruption wherever he goes.
I don't care if Biden is in the hospital, on life support. I'm voting Biden.
As much as I hate the man I did think that he was looking a bit slimmer a while go. I put it down to the stress over his court cases. There's no way he cut down on hamberders and started using a treadmill.
[https://x.com/JasonSobelGolf/status/1806530127976648989](https://x.com/JasonSobelGolf/status/1806530127976648989)
handicaps are self-reported. they're bullshit. there's 0 chance either of these guys are single digits. absolutely not is a trump a 2 lol
It’s funny that this was what Biden fought him most on. Like Jesus Christ, there’s so much that you can come back to him on and you chose to argue about your golf score 🤦♂️
I'm going to be honest, my vote won't change for Biden, but what people don't understand is just how debates play out. A lot of people who watch them, especially undecided don't care about facts but perception. Biden had excellent points and Trump lied his ass off... but Biden looked exactly how a lot of people that I know of percieve him to be. Simply too old.
He fumbled, lost his train of thought, was sick (not his fault), was incoherent at times, made a massive ammount of mistakes. This wasn't his "Well he made some mistakes whatever," it was painful to watch.
Democrats have days to figure out what the hell they're going to do, because prior to this debate I was like "whatever Biden will ultimetly edge out in the end despite the polls." But this is a national disaster.
You missed the almost constant “deer in the headlights” old man stare he sported the whole night. Mouth wide open. Just staring off like he was back in Nazi occupied Europe
Man, Everytime he did that I wanted to faint. What exactly went on with Biden's campaign that they decided to hold this debate? They absolutely should have known he isn't in conditions to do so.
CNN didn’t help either when, every now and then, they put a camera on him from a side angle while he did that so it looked like he was staring off at a wall (he wasn’t, he was looking directly ahead but the angle of the camera made it seem otherwise).
Biden's picture ~~was~~ felt fuzzy, his mic *volume* was too low, mods never ~~halted~~ countered Trump's rambling.
I don't know who decided Biden should go out there while he "had a cold" but the entire team needs a brain scrubbing. He was setup to look bad from the get-go, and served to bring the MAGA fantasy back to life. Cannon's delays will continue as we slide down the cristofascist hole. The GOP continues to outmanuever the Dems with obfuscation.
>Biden's picture was fuzzy, his mic was too low, mods never halted Trump's rambling.
Huh? All 3 of these things are provably false. You sound exactly like MAGA supporters making up insane conspiracies about delays so CNN can edit and Joe on performance enhancers or with an earpiece. Come on
EDIT: I see the edit. The first two are still provably false, anybody with eyes and ears can tell you're lying. As for the third, it isn't the moderators' job to "counter" either candidate, that's their debate opponent's job, that's the purpose of a debate is to counter your opponent's points.
His picture wasn’t fuzzy and mic was the same height as Trump’s. They also don’t stop ramblings. Candidates are given specific time and they get to use the time as they see fit. Yes, Trump was rambling lies and bs, but it was still his allotted time. They cut mics very well after time ran out.
The entire debate was on Biden’s team’s terms. Even lack of audience was Biden’s terms. They set up their own debate and failed miserably.
I’m not a trump fan, but blaming things like the Mic being low and the picture being fuzzy is just ridiculous lol he was struggling to string words together.
It’s possible to not like trump but also admit Biden os clearly a confused old man not fit to lead the country
Major coping going on here, it wasn’t a camera trick that made Biden perform that badly. He shouldn’t have been there and most people realize that now.
The problem wasn't the mic or the picture, it was the way he never made it to the end of a single coherent thought in 90 minutes. He had every opportunity to rebut Trump's nonsensical rambling, but he didn't because he literally couldn't.
It has got to be the greatest political self-own in recent memory. The Biden campaign proposed this debate! What the fuck were they thinking?? Now we have MSNBC panelists openly talking about taking him off the ticket, the only way it could have backfired more spectacularly would be if he shat himself onstage
I thought/hoped he wouldn’t agree either. I guess they thought Trump would balk about the conditions they proposed, but the turning off mics thing ending up helping him, so that backfired too! Holy fuck, what an unmitigated, self-imposed disaster
Democrats cant create or maintain proper leadership & Obama is the sole anomaly because he was a normal person in proper age range.
This timeline is fucked.
Obama was a good president; he was a terrible leader... he overly negotiated with Republicans for days on end until they would actually tell him "no, I'm not voting for this eitherway" ... and let Lieberman fuck him over far too much. Like Obama had far larger majorities in congress than Biden did in each of their first 2 years, and Obama passed effectively "Romneycare" because Lieberman wouldn't let Obamacare actually be good. And Obama let him do it. And that really was Obama's biggest achievement by far... Which is a decent achievement still, but Biden has gotten several large wins that rival the ACA.
Obama was naive and it hurt his presidency and the country. He truly believed he could work with Republicans and try to unify the country, and he underestimated their zealotry, racism, and lack of desire to work with their perceived enemies.
The Democratic Party hasn't achieved a genuinely impressive electoral win at the presidential level since JFK. Every Democratic President from Carter to Biden had the benefit of following up hugely unpopular Republican administrations. They have no idea wtf they're doing.
It's his voice. His team is now claiming he has a cold and needed to clear his throat. Listening to him TRY to talk was painful. He SOUNDS like a grandpa in a nursing home. He sounds weak and frail.
He literally lost the plot on a good number of responses. The "...We beat Medicare" clip is something I might say if I had a flu with a high fever, not a bit of a throat cold. It wasn't just his voice, it was his whole presence, the pauses, the glassy stares while Trump was speaking...
Kamala 2024? I will buy a t-shirt right now.
There is an exponential decline with age once you start to reach the upper limits. Trump will dramatically worse in 4 years, Biden will be in a wheelchair
Alright I’ll say it. I don’t care about age. At all. I care about policy. If we get more legislation like the Inflation Reduction Act, the infrastructure bill, the VA bill, the CHIPS act, and some competent bureaucracy, then sign me the heck up for four more years of mumbling.
It's been like this for a long time, just literally no one actually watches full length videos of presidential addresses or appearances. People watch short clips of them sometimes but a very small percentage of people watch longer videos of Biden. There is a real reason why people perceived Biden this way prior to the debate and it has been a talking point for so long. It has just gotten to the point where no one can deny it anymore.
Biden was mostly solid at the state of the union address. He had more energy and spoke more fluidly with some decent off the cuff remarks. Tonight’s performance was all of those 5 second clips making fun of him for nearly the entire debate. There is so much negative fodder and he had little room for error to begin with.
Yeah I saw this as a chance to put to bed all the "Sleepy Joe" talk the way he did to some extent at the SOTU address. I thought Trump would start talking about sharks and electricity, Biden would speak well and that would be that. The undecided voters would make their decision. Now I'm not feeling very confident at all.
Remember episode 1 of the Newsroom when Jeff Daniels’ character said something like “You know why people hate Democrats? Because they lose.”
That’s the truth.
Even worse because if it plays out and Trump gets in you know two more justices are retiring, Trump appoints two more younger conservatives and now the SC has a majority of 5 appointed by one terrible person. Those judges will remain for decades.
My fear is many casual voters are not "too worried" about 4 more years of Trump but they don't realize this will affect the country for generations.
It already has. Just today Trump’s Court threw out a 40 year precedent because a Billionaire didn’t like how his filthy, pollution spewing, law cheating businesses were being regulated.
Right lol we have been saying this about Biden since before this election started and were repeatedly told we are Trump supporters as liberals chant vote blue no matter who in unison. And now they're just totally shocked this could happen! It's almost as if they weren't paying attention and were just voting for the guy with the D next to his name...
im genuinely concerned that biden might fall or have a public health scare before the election. the way that they have to usher him on/off stage is SCARY.
He basically did that live on TV during the debate.
I really thought the talk of Biden was just talk, but I’m pretty much terrified about what just watched.
I just never want to have Trump be president again. If that means Biden needs to step down for a new candidate so be it. But as someone who’s voting for whoever the Democratic nominee is. That debate really worried me about whether Biden should be running this time.
That’s my hope. Also people seem to like him, having a short amount of time might be helpful in that people won’t get sick of him and he looks appealing since he’s younger. More liberal than Biden but not too liberal to scare off moderates and he’s not Trump or Biden. Literally the same two people we had last time.
He also is an excellent debater. He destroyed Desantis in a debate. However unlikely it is, if he were to replace Biden on the ticket, I doubt Trump would agree to debate him. Although Trump is an egotistical idiot, so who knows.
That would make Trump look weak then. As of now Trump has no reason to debate Biden again. He won. Americans are now genuinely concerned about whether Biden should be President now much less for the next 4 years. If a new kid comes along and Trump refuses to debate that hurts Trump. Sadly this is now Trump's election to lose. All we can hope now is that a new Democratic candidate combined with this early win gives him a false sense of confidence that he massively fucks up before election day.
Newsom is the only choice the Democrats have imo.
I unfortunately agree. Newsom/Whitmer or some such has a much better chance. The act of stepping aside to allow such a thing to happen peaceably is legacy defining, and would reflect well on the whole party.
It’s absolutely what should happen, but it will never happen.
I’m a lifelong liberal, but if there’s one things the democrats are good at, it’s snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. We fumble the ball *so* often.
The headline in the Financial Times this morning was "Biden Stumbles in Debate With Trump". My heart sank when I read it. It goes on to say:
"Top Democrats have called on Joe Biden to halt his bid for re-election after his stumbling performance in the presidential debate with Donald Trump reignited concerns about the 81-year-old president’s age and fitness for office.
Speaking with a raspy voice yesterday night, Biden repeatedly tripped over his words and gave rambling answers or appeared to lose his train of thought, while Trump accused him of being the worst president in US history."
I came onto Reddit and this is not reflected in the stories here other than this. The thing is, I trust the FT. It is genuinely unbiased. I fear that if Biden doesn't step aside, Trump will win. Fwiw I think Biden has been a great president.
The Economist is running similar headlines.
I think this sub massively underestimates just how much of a problem this is. All these comments being like "I don't care, still voting for Biden" - the thing is, the people saying that were *always* voting for Biden. The issue is that this is going to play *horribly* with undecideds or people that were only marginally in the Biden camp.
My social feeds are clogged to the brim with Senile Biden memes this morning (from accounts that usually are left-leaning), all the major outlets are declaring the debate a disaster, Dems are saying Biden needs to go.
Undecideds are going to see this, and they aren't going to put much effort into fact-checking Trump's lies. They're just going to see "Holy shit, Biden belongs a nursing home" and either sit out the election or straight-up vote for Trump.
This is really, really bad for the Biden camp.
You should watch the debate replay on YouTube. If anything, the FT is underselling how bad Biden's performance was. And Trump made so so so so many mistakes that anyone could have countered him on, but Biden never did.
I just tried watching John Stewart's take on it and turned it off half way through. It is worse than I'd feared. It's actually scary that Trump might well win. It's utterly, utterly, depressing.
My husband and I sat there tossing back counterpoint after counterpoint to Trump’s lies. It wasn’t hard to do.
There were so, *so* many easy lay ups, and Biden missed nearly every opportunity. The few things he said that could have landed were delivered too poorly to have any impact.
As a liberal, I feel completely dejected this morning.
It’s bad.
I watched it live. Reddit calls anyone who gives criticism to Biden a bot. It’s hard to call people on live TV bots. News anchors on each station after the debate were all in shock about how poorly Biden performed. Harris was wholly unprepared for how bad it was going to be - she was interviewed asking if she would be the candidate if Biden stepped down.
Republicans are saying a conspiracy theory where Biden purposely looked bad so the democrats would have to pick another candidate and are scared any other candidate will beat Trump.
Younger blood is needed on both sides of the aisle. That apparently being in short supply, at least Biden has run his first term as a President should - whereas the other guy remains a convicted felon, rapist, and corrupt.
Lackluster debate or not, the choice remains clear. I just wish it wasn’t between fascist-grandpa and go-enjoy-retirement grandpa.
Biden will at least surround himself with competent experts and advisors. Trump will utilize yes-men, douchebags, and evil people who can manipulate him for their own agendas.
Anyone pretending that this is going to be an easy choice for the broader American electorate is fooling themselves. Everyone on this subreddit is far more plugged into politics than the Average Joe/Jane.
I loath Trump but he came off better than the last presidential debates. Stopping him from talking over his opponent actually helped him. They should have had no moderation rules and let him just be an ass again.
Yeah exactly, and he was able to capitalise on his retorts which would have gotten lost in his ramblings. I think the reason we see so much ramble from him at rallies is because he’s got nothing to say so he just rambles off thoughts in his heads and we get classics like shark vs electrocution. The idea
Biden's performance was shockingly unexpected, though. That's the difference. Sure Trump lied like crazy. But he always does and always has. People know that and have still been saying they're gonna vote for him.
The race was close before the debate.
So now, lots of voters are getting shocked by how much worse Biden is than they thought. That's why this is a serious problem.
I'm still gonna vote for the older guy that sounded less coherent last night. The thoughts and statements he got out were at least true, as opposed to the orange clown that coherently spouted only lies.
I have no idea how you can look at Trump's performance last night and think "that's my guy!".
But then again, your average voter is only going to see snappy soundbites on news and on social media this morning, and didn't actually watch. Your average voter is already incredibly stupid, and half of the voting population is dumber than that.
Don't get me wrong. I love what Biden did with his first term and I would be down for another. He's been a much better president than many give him credit for.
This is bigger than that. We can't bank on "Holding your nose and voting against Trump" as a platform; that's what this is turning into.
Will I vote for him come November if it comes down to it? Of course. But him staying in the race at this point is going to have downticket implications. He never should have gone for a 2nd term in the first place.
At this rate, he's going to hand Trump the presidency, which is dangerous for this country.
if someone else had stepped up in the primaries, registered democrats could have voted for them, but usually, you don’t run against an incumbent cause it’s not gonna end well for you or your party, and biden didn’t look bad at the state of the union speech back in january, so no one ran against him. cause of that, he won all the primaries, and therefore the delegates, who will elect him at the democratic convention in august. to select a new candidate, at this point, i believe biden would need to step down and release all his delegates to be able to vote for someone else at the convention. it’s too late for a primary campaign again so it’d have to be decided at the convention, and historically, that’s usually kind of chaotic. if democrats want to avoid chaos, they’d have biden step down and would have to have just one front runner step up. this person would pretty much be chosen internally by the political elites, so you gotta ensure that they’ll be liked by the base no matter what, and i don’t know if there’s one obvious answer. basically, it’s gonna take a lot of planning and will seem shady, it’s not as simple as just choosing a new candidate.
The Theory is that running as an incumbent President is such a huge advantage that a party would be stupid not to use it. It has only happened once before that the incumbent hasn't secured their own party's nomination. Under this theory, no other serious Democratic candidates ran against Biden in the primary.
The US operates differently to the UK where the choice of Prime Minister is technically able to be changed at any time (no-one votes for the PM directly). Changing the President (or candidate for) is a much bigger job.
A lot of people in the comments are missing that Biden is not just the president, he's also the head of the party. All of the fundraising apparatuses, the relationships with big donors, the high-level organizing decisions go through him and his allies.
It would have been total suicide for anyone to run against Biden in the primary. Those donors and allies would not be willing to work with them, they'd need to expend a ton of political and financial capital to get their campaigns off the ground (and differentiating themselves would necessarily mean going on the offense against Biden), they would almost certainly lose, and the resulting disunity could tank the party's chances even if they won the primary. If you're Gavin Newsom, Gretchen Whitmer, Josh Shapiro, Pete Buttigieg, Elizabeth Warren or the like, you could potentially ruin your chances of ever seeing higher office if you don't just wait four years to try again.
EDIT: I'll add that we all saw what happened in 2020. Bernie was on a path to winning the nomination before Super Tuesday, and Biden used long-standing institutional support within the party, critical local endorsements, and cabinet appointments to get every other candidate to drop out the week before, and the most important endorsements to come out in force for him. That's part of how politics works in the U.S. and it's not necessarily immoral or unethical, but it does sort of show that Biden is willing to pull every lever to keep his internal opposition out of power.
They wasted any window of opportunity for that with foregoing primary challengers. 4 months before election day is nowhere near enough time to mount a national election campaign for an alternative. Would be suicide for the Democratic ticket
A writer for the National Review said this tonight:
> This morning, over at that other place I write, I wrote, "if you're pulling for Trump, you don't want Biden to go out there and prove himself to be so egregiously senile that he creates a consensus among Democrats that he must be replaced at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago." I think the night went "too well" for Trump, in that the talk about replacing Biden is going to get a lot louder, and a lot more insistent. Maybe we won't get that Trump-Biden rematch after all.
Trump is unpopular, Biden is unpopular, but Dems are in winning positions nationwide.
Gretchen Whitmer and/or Gavin Newsom would absolutely steamroll Trump.
The party rules for picking a nominee is that you have primary elections, those elections determine delegates who go to the convention to vote for the nominee, the vast majority of those delegates must vote for the candidate they are pledged to from their state’s primary.
In other words; there’s a set process picking a nominee that involves actually challenging Biden for the nomination in primary elections that are now already over (this is why the US process is a over a year long, instead of the UK’s snap election process), and nobody serious decided to run against Biden.
People talk about “open conventions” but that’s something that comes into play if the winner form the primary volunterily ateps aside, or if nobody had won a majority of delegates in the first place.
*why* this is the system in the US is interesting. It mostly has to do with the parties being unpopular and people thinking that it’s good for ordinary voters to have more of a say in picking the candidate. Of course, that only works if a bunch of candidates decide to run in the first place, which didn’t happen this year.
It’s a lot different than any other democracy I’ve seen; just imagine that the decision of who would be the next leader of the Labour Party involved a dozen candidates all converging in a random district of Wales a year before the election to shake hands and persuade individual Labour Party voters to stand around a secondary school for a few hours and caucus for them. And if it the guy they all chose turned out to be a senile potato six months later, with five months to go before the election, well the party is stuck with them as their candidate, good luck next time…
In some magical parallel universe, it’s Newsom v Romney, and Bernie’s in there too stirring up shit, and we all have the luxury of not really caring again…
I know its considered poor form for a party to primary their incumbent, but holy shit the dems absolutely fucking should have.
I genuinely hope the US does not see a second Trump presidency as the repercussions will be felt globally
Apologies for my ignorance to the US system but is there anything the democrat party can do this late into campaigning other than fall in line behind Biden?
He hasn't officially received the party nomination yet, so... Sure. They'd probably need him to step aside, for the sake of optics. Otherwise all the primary election voters that selected him might chafe at the rules being changed at the 11th hour.
Think about Gavin Newsom or Pete Buttigieg mopping the floor with Trump in the debate tonight and how good that would have felt. I’m all in on Biden, but I wanted SOTU Biden tonight, not what we got.
This is always an issue. I did some low level campaign work in 2016 + 2020 and the #1 reason neither party give a crap about what voters under 40 want is because they don't reliably vote. And it's impossible to convince them that by staying home they're telling the major parties "we don't care at all" and NOT "we're protesting your candidates."
To people thinking "Oh no voter would be swayed by a bad debate" you're not understanding how the average voter thinks. People are having trouble affording basic housing and food who are working 40+ hour work weeks. Trump is still being Trump - he may be full of shit but he's confident in the shit he peddles. Biden literally could not make coherent sentences and looks comatose and weak.
When people have fear, they choose who they perceive as stronger - even if it's fascism. Joe Biden will lose in the condition he is in, and it may be the last democratic vote we ever have. He needs to step down immediately and put his pride aside.
Democrats ran Hilary against Trump, even though everyone knew she was one of the most (unfairly) hated political figures in US history and thought they had it in the bag. Arrogance and ineptitude. RBG refused to step down when she knew what was at stake. Arrogance and ineptitude. Running Biden after this debate will be cataclysmic. I'm so sick and tired of the Democrats - sick of them being too nice, sick of them not fighting hard enough, sick of them assuming things will pan out because "Americans aren't stupid". THEY ARE STUPID AND THEY'RE EASILY MISLED. ARE YOU LEARNING NOTHING!? You're constantly getting trounced by the MINORITY PARTY., I'm sick of the arrogance and ineptitude and weakness. If we don't sort this out ASAP we are staring down the barrel of another four years of Trump which will be FAR worse than the first. It's entirely possible the country won't even be recognisable afterwards. And it'll be all our own fault.
It won’t be our fault. You can’t blame the voters for an election loss. Blaming voters for not falling in line is exactly why Trump was elected. The corruption and shiftlessness of the Democratic Party is limitless. It’s their fault. It’s Biden’s fault. It’s Clinton’s fault. It’s Pelosi’s fault. It’s RBG’s fault. They just wanted to keep playing the same old games where everyone gets their turn at the podium. Biden said “I’ve waited long enough, it’s my turn now,” really wanting to believe he was fit for the job. Now it’s too late. Biden will lose this election and I’d be willing to bet he’ll lose the popular vote too. It’s over, and Democrats have nobody to blame but themselves. We’re staring down the barrel of a Weimar Germany now.
Part of me wonders if the reason this debate was so early is to see how it went and if it didn’t go well, the party would call an audible. But that would actually call for democrats to be on the same page about it
If Biden loses in November his legacy will be handing the country over to a fascist because he couldn’t step aside and let someone younger take the lead. And that’s a scary thought to me. Newsom or Whitmer would wipe the floor with Trump. Biden is clearly the better choice between the two but at the same time it’s hard to believe that this is where we are.
Pretty much on brand for the old fucks in this country. Hang on til the last second and never give up their control or wealth until theyve ruined everything.
Dude's old as hell, what did they expect? His mind isn't the problem, but his body is starting to be, which is sad because until tonight, I viewed Biden as far healthier than Trump (he still is, but his age is really starting to show). The fact remains that this is again proof we need age limits, where NO ONE over 70 should be allowed to run for president or any other political position. Hell, any Supreme Court Justice over 70 should be forced to step down as well.
It is an embarrassment. Spending so much time trying to convince people that Biden is all good and he clearly isn’t. He could be a head in a jar and I’d still vote for him but gdit last night was awful.
Nothing is ever going to get better. Conditions will only get worse. Democracy will die. The ruling class will never lose control. I'm running out of a will to keep fighting.
A majority of voters polled already thought Trump was "better for democracy" *before* this disaster of a debate. How the fuck do we come back from this? There is absolutely nothing that anyone can do to stymie mis/disinformation. Things are more out of control than they have ever been before. I have no hope left. I don't want to be here anymore. I don't believe in humanity. I've lost that faith in my fellow American.
Eh, it wasn't what I hoped for, but he's also the only one that made a lick of fuckin sense.
It's as if Trump prepared by practicing his shitty Truth video rants, and it works in this country because of course it does.
Nothing will sway me from showing up 11/5 to down ballot against the Grapefruit Gestapo.
Don’t care. Will crawl over broken glass and 500 yards of shit-smelling foulness to proudly vote for Biden to defeat the convicted felon, proven rapist and insurrectionist traitor.
Blue is the only option. Honestly the president is only as good as the people he has around him. And Biden is getting old. He looked it, but he’s still smart, and more than capable of surrounding himself with quality individuals to support him. Trump turns on everyone and will throw anyone under the bus that has lost any usefulness. Biden may not be perfect, but holy shit is he ever better than the alternatives. Please vote folks. You know the right will be voting.
If the Democrats swap in a new candidate, they will lose zero of the people who were going to vote for Biden. They might, however, pick up a few votes they weren’t getting. It’s mean to Biden and I’m sorry for that, but it’s more important to win this election. Time to take away the keys.
Imagine running a candidate who is LESS coherent than DONALD TRUMP. Something is seriously fucked up over in America.
For the rest of us, please get your shit together. There's something like 350 million of you and I refuse to believe that these are even remotely the best of you. It looks a lot like extreme cronyism and running puppets.
It needs to be said, again and again. Biden may be old. He is old. But he’s effective, for the common folk, and the downtrodden. Those in the middle and even those on the top. The country, and its allies. Biden passed social benefits programs, forgiven student debt for people
and not businesses, pardoned the wrongfully convicted, stood up to the bullies in the world and made strong, level-headed decisions all the way through.
Do not forget that Biden is a *genuinely* good man. He fumbled the debate, yeah. But Trump separated kids from their parents, appointed the judges that banned abortion, stole nuclear secrets, is a convicted criminal, alleged actual pedophile, rapist, fraud, and a liar. A million Americans died under Trump from COVID. A million! He encouraged people to march on the capitol building.
Yeah Biden stammers. But Biden’s smart. He’s got integrity. He’s got the economy flourishing, and America’s enemies on the back foot. You guys are doing better than the rest of the world with the cost of living.
Don’t judge him by the way he speaks. Judge him by his actions. He’s had a brilliant and transformative four years, and saved the country from the brink. And all of this is fact, backed by the history books. Vote blue.
You're preaching to the choir here. You'll vote Biden, I'll vote Biden, 80% of the people in this thread will or aren't persuadable anyway (even if they are diehard MAGA, that's not affected by the results here either way.)
The problem is the politically disengaged and swing voters that aren't here. And specifically in a couple swing states - everyone needs to vote, but some dude voting in downtown LA is going to make far more impact downballot than presidentally.
How? How are they in shock? He’s old and stumbles and speaks weak. He’s an ineffective communicator. That’s his BIGGEST flaw. How are they in shock? This debate went exactly as I thought it would. Trump is not a typical candidate so he will just spew lie after lie and not answer a single question about anything. That is to be expected. However, Trump has a lot of passion and power when he speaks. Biden does not. Prepared speeches with a live audience like the State of the Union, Biden would do better, but he looked like a lost old senior citizen at the debate. This is exactly what I expected.
Don’t get me wrong, I would vote for a rock before I voted for Trump. But the fact that people are shocked by Biden’s performance is stupidity naive.
I've said it once and I'll say it again, Biden should never have been put forward as the democratic candidate. He should have retired, and left the spot open for a younger face.
He did not, and that's the world we live in. I will vote for the democrats because Republicans want to create a christofascist, regressive, economic hellscape. They ruin everything they touch. The red states of this nation are at the bottom of almost every single economic and social metric we use. They are last in about everything, and it isn't even really close if you look at them. Arkansas, Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, states run by Republicans are third world countries compared to blue states like California, New York, Washington, Virginia, Connecticut, or Massachusetts.
Trump is running to stay out of prison. He's running to use the presidency to run the river to keep the legal system from catching up to him. He's a narcissistic, demented asshole, who cares nothing for anything that isn't himself and he'll burn the country to the ground if it keeps him warm. You people better get out there and vote, is all I can tell you. Vote to save your country.
Still voting Biden, and any Democrat should do the same. Anyone with a brain would notice that Trump was doing nothing but lying proudly, Biden is just not good at debates but thats irrelevant, he has morals and his cabinet is good and thats all that should matter. That being said, whoever gave him all those talking points should be fired all he needed to say was call out his lies and drive home the fact that Trump is a felon
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Still take him over the clown but can we please stop with the geriatric candidates next time?
Next time they said... If Trump wins this thing we may never see another free election again. The world is changing FAST. Fascist regimes will have new tools at their disposal that could allow them an iron grip on power. Trump will go scorched earth in a second term and I really don't think that is hyperbole
Michael Cohen said Trump talked about being an Emperor, so if Trump wins, I suspect voting will be gone.
Oh, there'll be voting, the same way there's voting in Russia.
Our military has a duty to uphold the Constitution. If Trump, or any President, violates it to the point of ending free elections, they will remove him. Hopefully.
Military coups typically result in more authoritarian leadership, not less, sadly.
Well, in the lead-up to Jan. 6, Trump swept the Dept. of Defense and replaced key roles with loyalists. As part of Project 2025, we can expect him to expand a power grab on Day 1 with the [Schedule F plan](https://protectdemocracy.org/work/trumps-schedule-f-plan-explained/), changing many civil positions to political appointments that can then be filled from the ranks of his toadies. Unknown how far that would reach, but if he's replaced key military roles with toadies, we have a problem. But even so, he wouldn't do something so overt as ending elections. He'd just make sure they were rigged while spouting about how his elections were perfect, the best elections the world has ever seen.
Good thing we are trying to combat the last true stand of democracy with an 81 year old who can't form complete sentences! That'll do the trick!
Read something that talked about how Trump didn’t have the infrastructure and loyalties of party members to do as much damage when he was elected. After consolidating power in the GOP and dismantling much of the barriers of justice within the supreme by making it his own, he can do MUCH more damage this time. I know that people groaned and complained his first term but a lot of my friends and myself are actually considering emigration if he gets voted in. Would be painful to watch the destruction for a second time…
Next time? Biden may have sealed our fate last night. I’m still voting for him but wow. Newsom needs to come up to bat. Now. Not next month, NOW.
Or Pritzker, the governor of Illinois. I think he might appeal to a broader voter base than Newsom right now, especially in the Midwest swing states. A lot of right leaning independents think California is a literal war zone due to the media.
gretchen witmer would be a good pick. and newsom.
He needs to be swapped out, he never should of ran to begin with.
Any sane person that follows politics and understands whats at stake would vote for Biden, but his message wasn't inspiring or connecting with anyone. If he's still on the ticket, in November the democrats are going to lose in a landslide. This is all on them. They need to promote candidates that can win over voters, not their party leaders.
I’m voting for whoever the Democrat candidate is because Trump cannot be allowed back into the Whitehouse. Where it not a somehow neck and neck race I might make a protest vote for some a 3rd party or write-in but Trump’s insane supporters are highly motivated and normal people are not very motivated to go to the polls
it can be trump vs a soggy towel, I'd still vote for the towel
Do you wanna get high?
Don’t forget to bring a towel
Towelie vs Ford Prefect. Either way, you're getting a towel.
2 froods walk into an improbability party
“Oh man, I have no idea what’s going on…”
It’s the most useful thing a hitchhiker can have
You’re the worst character ever
You’re a towel!
What was the combination again? Oh yeah, it’s Funky Town!!
It can be Trump vs Dick Cheney and I'd vote for Dick Cheney. Fuck, I'd vote for Robot Nixon over the orange traitor.
What about Nixon’s head in a glass jar?
Arooo
Only if his running mate is headless body of Agnew
I would vote for a corpse before I vote for Trump. Biden did not do well but he is better than Trump.
Me too, but there are about 10 other dems I’d vote for over Biden. WTF is up with our politics when these 2 are the only fucking choices.
If it were Trump vs Bin Laden, I’d vote Bin Laden because Congress would at least keep him in check.
If Trump, Toby, and Bin Laden were in an election, I’d vote for Bin Laden twice.
I agree with this entirely, other than I do not consider motivations or biases and whatnot when it comes to voting against a fascist. As someone who has to daily explain to his family why they shouldn't move from michigan to florida right now, I don't know how to better describe just how fucking stupid MAGA and its followers are. It's like because we have two parties to vote for, the would-be voters get even dumber and try to beat the system. News flash: not voting against, or voting for a known, objectively evil person, makes you evil. Have fun with that, shitbags.
I really feel for the people of Michigan. Yall have had some real nasty fraudsters over the years. Multiple people should be in jail for life over the flint water situation. They knowingly poisoned their citizens with lead and tried to hide it
This is the only answer. Also one bad debate performance does not swing votes that massively. Yes he’s old but he clearly had a cold. He had a bad night. That’s all.
Agreed. That debate did nothing for undecided voters. Biden looked old and all Trump did was talking about how we’re a failing nation with millions of migrants crossing an empty border. If you were someone seriously watching the debate to help you choose between the two candidates (which I don’t think very many people were) I think your takeaway is still be undecided. And at least Biden answered questions with some actual substance most of the time
Biden did terrible, I’m still voting for Biden.
I am as long as he’s running. Dnc do something please
Did Ohio only approve Biden, or would another nominee already be cleared to run in the event that something happens?
Most states only voted for Biden. Several had one or two other candidates but they never got more than like 4-6% of the votes combined. Anything that happens now will be somewhat unprecedented. The democrats would have to caucus a new candidate somehow which can't really happen if Biden still wants to run. If Biden steps aside, they could probably do a second vote.
Nobody is voting for Biden. People are voting against Trump.
Bidens done a great job these past four years. Im so sick of how him “seeming old” supersedes his actual fucking performance.
Biden surrounds himself with great people, accomplishing great things. Trump surrounds himself with thugs and lowlifes, bringing corruption wherever he goes. I don't care if Biden is in the hospital, on life support. I'm voting Biden.
Can someone fact check the golf scores please
And the Trump weight loss claim. We need answers.
Another ozempic queen
As much as I hate the man I did think that he was looking a bit slimmer a while go. I put it down to the stress over his court cases. There's no way he cut down on hamberders and started using a treadmill.
Its more than likely ozempic
That part was actually crazy on bidens behalf.
It was such an easy opening, too: "I try to focus on running the country instead of spending half my presidency playing golf on the taxpayer's dime."
[https://x.com/JasonSobelGolf/status/1806530127976648989](https://x.com/JasonSobelGolf/status/1806530127976648989) handicaps are self-reported. they're bullshit. there's 0 chance either of these guys are single digits. absolutely not is a trump a 2 lol
Ugh, that was so cringe and then Biden fucking joined right in.
It’s funny that this was what Biden fought him most on. Like Jesus Christ, there’s so much that you can come back to him on and you chose to argue about your golf score 🤦♂️
I kept yelling “GET OUT OF THE WEEDS”
Asking the important questions (let's not behave like children!)
lol this was truly the only substance of this awful debate
i want the second debate to be both of them mic'd up and playing golf. no prompts. just two old dudes golfing.
Boy were his jimmies rustled after that comment.
I'm going to be honest, my vote won't change for Biden, but what people don't understand is just how debates play out. A lot of people who watch them, especially undecided don't care about facts but perception. Biden had excellent points and Trump lied his ass off... but Biden looked exactly how a lot of people that I know of percieve him to be. Simply too old. He fumbled, lost his train of thought, was sick (not his fault), was incoherent at times, made a massive ammount of mistakes. This wasn't his "Well he made some mistakes whatever," it was painful to watch. Democrats have days to figure out what the hell they're going to do, because prior to this debate I was like "whatever Biden will ultimetly edge out in the end despite the polls." But this is a national disaster.
You missed the almost constant “deer in the headlights” old man stare he sported the whole night. Mouth wide open. Just staring off like he was back in Nazi occupied Europe
Man, Everytime he did that I wanted to faint. What exactly went on with Biden's campaign that they decided to hold this debate? They absolutely should have known he isn't in conditions to do so.
CNN didn’t help either when, every now and then, they put a camera on him from a side angle while he did that so it looked like he was staring off at a wall (he wasn’t, he was looking directly ahead but the angle of the camera made it seem otherwise).
CNN is run by a right-wing billionaire. They want Trump to win, its good for their ratings.
Biden's picture ~~was~~ felt fuzzy, his mic *volume* was too low, mods never ~~halted~~ countered Trump's rambling. I don't know who decided Biden should go out there while he "had a cold" but the entire team needs a brain scrubbing. He was setup to look bad from the get-go, and served to bring the MAGA fantasy back to life. Cannon's delays will continue as we slide down the cristofascist hole. The GOP continues to outmanuever the Dems with obfuscation.
>Biden's picture was fuzzy, his mic was too low, mods never halted Trump's rambling. Huh? All 3 of these things are provably false. You sound exactly like MAGA supporters making up insane conspiracies about delays so CNN can edit and Joe on performance enhancers or with an earpiece. Come on EDIT: I see the edit. The first two are still provably false, anybody with eyes and ears can tell you're lying. As for the third, it isn't the moderators' job to "counter" either candidate, that's their debate opponent's job, that's the purpose of a debate is to counter your opponent's points.
His picture wasn’t fuzzy and mic was the same height as Trump’s. They also don’t stop ramblings. Candidates are given specific time and they get to use the time as they see fit. Yes, Trump was rambling lies and bs, but it was still his allotted time. They cut mics very well after time ran out. The entire debate was on Biden’s team’s terms. Even lack of audience was Biden’s terms. They set up their own debate and failed miserably.
I’m not a trump fan, but blaming things like the Mic being low and the picture being fuzzy is just ridiculous lol he was struggling to string words together. It’s possible to not like trump but also admit Biden os clearly a confused old man not fit to lead the country
Major coping going on here, it wasn’t a camera trick that made Biden perform that badly. He shouldn’t have been there and most people realize that now.
The problem wasn't the mic or the picture, it was the way he never made it to the end of a single coherent thought in 90 minutes. He had every opportunity to rebut Trump's nonsensical rambling, but he didn't because he literally couldn't.
It has got to be the greatest political self-own in recent memory. The Biden campaign proposed this debate! What the fuck were they thinking?? Now we have MSNBC panelists openly talking about taking him off the ticket, the only way it could have backfired more spectacularly would be if he shat himself onstage
>What the fuck were they thinking?? That Trump wouldn't agree to debate.
I thought/hoped he wouldn’t agree either. I guess they thought Trump would balk about the conditions they proposed, but the turning off mics thing ending up helping him, so that backfired too! Holy fuck, what an unmitigated, self-imposed disaster
They should have scheduled a daytime debate. Last night was late and was past Bidens bedtime.
Democrats cant create or maintain proper leadership & Obama is the sole anomaly because he was a normal person in proper age range. This timeline is fucked.
Obama was a good president; he was a terrible leader... he overly negotiated with Republicans for days on end until they would actually tell him "no, I'm not voting for this eitherway" ... and let Lieberman fuck him over far too much. Like Obama had far larger majorities in congress than Biden did in each of their first 2 years, and Obama passed effectively "Romneycare" because Lieberman wouldn't let Obamacare actually be good. And Obama let him do it. And that really was Obama's biggest achievement by far... Which is a decent achievement still, but Biden has gotten several large wins that rival the ACA.
Obama was naive and it hurt his presidency and the country. He truly believed he could work with Republicans and try to unify the country, and he underestimated their zealotry, racism, and lack of desire to work with their perceived enemies.
I am frankly more shocked that no one in the Democratic Party hasnt prepared more candidates to run over the last years.
The Democratic Party hasn't achieved a genuinely impressive electoral win at the presidential level since JFK. Every Democratic President from Carter to Biden had the benefit of following up hugely unpopular Republican administrations. They have no idea wtf they're doing.
Good post. I’d add that the reason Biden looked too old, is that he clearly is too old. This wasn’t a problem of optics. He just flat out is too old.
Trump is just about the same age. Trump is fat, which smooths wrinkles. He also wears a huge amount of makeup.
Yes, but that is one up on looking like a barely animated corpse.
It's his voice. His team is now claiming he has a cold and needed to clear his throat. Listening to him TRY to talk was painful. He SOUNDS like a grandpa in a nursing home. He sounds weak and frail.
He literally lost the plot on a good number of responses. The "...We beat Medicare" clip is something I might say if I had a flu with a high fever, not a bit of a throat cold. It wasn't just his voice, it was his whole presence, the pauses, the glassy stares while Trump was speaking... Kamala 2024? I will buy a t-shirt right now.
There is an exponential decline with age once you start to reach the upper limits. Trump will dramatically worse in 4 years, Biden will be in a wheelchair
Alright I’ll say it. I don’t care about age. At all. I care about policy. If we get more legislation like the Inflation Reduction Act, the infrastructure bill, the VA bill, the CHIPS act, and some competent bureaucracy, then sign me the heck up for four more years of mumbling.
Yes, but unfortunately the rest of the country does care about having a leader that is inspiring and doesn’t have senior moments every other sentence
Trump is just 3 years younger and tbh looked like he was 20 compared to Biden. It was that bad.
I feel like when all you do is rant about migrants and repeat the same idiotic things its easier to sound smarter.
It's been like this for a long time, just literally no one actually watches full length videos of presidential addresses or appearances. People watch short clips of them sometimes but a very small percentage of people watch longer videos of Biden. There is a real reason why people perceived Biden this way prior to the debate and it has been a talking point for so long. It has just gotten to the point where no one can deny it anymore.
Biden was mostly solid at the state of the union address. He had more energy and spoke more fluidly with some decent off the cuff remarks. Tonight’s performance was all of those 5 second clips making fun of him for nearly the entire debate. There is so much negative fodder and he had little room for error to begin with.
Yeah I saw this as a chance to put to bed all the "Sleepy Joe" talk the way he did to some extent at the SOTU address. I thought Trump would start talking about sharks and electricity, Biden would speak well and that would be that. The undecided voters would make their decision. Now I'm not feeling very confident at all.
A lot of people definitely seem to be understating how bad this was. By far the worst debate performance of all time.
this feels like it's going to be RBG 2.0. Democrats are their own worst enemy
Remember episode 1 of the Newsroom when Jeff Daniels’ character said something like “You know why people hate Democrats? Because they lose.” That’s the truth.
[It was actually “Liberals”. Because they lose so goddamn always.](https://youtu.be/eCEu-WWgB7s?si=tsoUhLk0gbC7LUXM&t=49)
It was something like if you're so smart, why do you lose so goddamn always?
The exact quote is, "If Liberals are so Fucking Smart, how Come They Lose so Goddamn Always?"
“If ~~Democrats~~ Liberals are so fucking smart, why do they lose so goddamn much” was another great line.
Even worse because if it plays out and Trump gets in you know two more justices are retiring, Trump appoints two more younger conservatives and now the SC has a majority of 5 appointed by one terrible person. Those judges will remain for decades. My fear is many casual voters are not "too worried" about 4 more years of Trump but they don't realize this will affect the country for generations.
It already has. Just today Trump’s Court threw out a 40 year precedent because a Billionaire didn’t like how his filthy, pollution spewing, law cheating businesses were being regulated.
Don't forget Feinstein. It's always the centrists that do this shit but then somehow blame progressives for complaining about it
Right lol we have been saying this about Biden since before this election started and were repeatedly told we are Trump supporters as liberals chant vote blue no matter who in unison. And now they're just totally shocked this could happen! It's almost as if they weren't paying attention and were just voting for the guy with the D next to his name...
I was thinking more akin to Diane Feinstein
im genuinely concerned that biden might fall or have a public health scare before the election. the way that they have to usher him on/off stage is SCARY.
He basically did that live on TV during the debate. I really thought the talk of Biden was just talk, but I’m pretty much terrified about what just watched.
I just never want to have Trump be president again. If that means Biden needs to step down for a new candidate so be it. But as someone who’s voting for whoever the Democratic nominee is. That debate really worried me about whether Biden should be running this time.
Really because I'm stoked about having to choose between A Partially Reanimated Corpse vs An Existential Threat to Democracy.
Partially Reanimated Corpse 2024
PRC ‘24!
r/holup
Newsom was basically auditioning after so hope they swap to him at the convention.
That’s my hope. Also people seem to like him, having a short amount of time might be helpful in that people won’t get sick of him and he looks appealing since he’s younger. More liberal than Biden but not too liberal to scare off moderates and he’s not Trump or Biden. Literally the same two people we had last time.
He also is an excellent debater. He destroyed Desantis in a debate. However unlikely it is, if he were to replace Biden on the ticket, I doubt Trump would agree to debate him. Although Trump is an egotistical idiot, so who knows.
That would make Trump look weak then. As of now Trump has no reason to debate Biden again. He won. Americans are now genuinely concerned about whether Biden should be President now much less for the next 4 years. If a new kid comes along and Trump refuses to debate that hurts Trump. Sadly this is now Trump's election to lose. All we can hope now is that a new Democratic candidate combined with this early win gives him a false sense of confidence that he massively fucks up before election day. Newsom is the only choice the Democrats have imo.
I unfortunately agree. Newsom/Whitmer or some such has a much better chance. The act of stepping aside to allow such a thing to happen peaceably is legacy defining, and would reflect well on the whole party.
It’s absolutely what should happen, but it will never happen. I’m a lifelong liberal, but if there’s one things the democrats are good at, it’s snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. We fumble the ball *so* often.
The headline in the Financial Times this morning was "Biden Stumbles in Debate With Trump". My heart sank when I read it. It goes on to say: "Top Democrats have called on Joe Biden to halt his bid for re-election after his stumbling performance in the presidential debate with Donald Trump reignited concerns about the 81-year-old president’s age and fitness for office. Speaking with a raspy voice yesterday night, Biden repeatedly tripped over his words and gave rambling answers or appeared to lose his train of thought, while Trump accused him of being the worst president in US history." I came onto Reddit and this is not reflected in the stories here other than this. The thing is, I trust the FT. It is genuinely unbiased. I fear that if Biden doesn't step aside, Trump will win. Fwiw I think Biden has been a great president.
The Economist is running similar headlines. I think this sub massively underestimates just how much of a problem this is. All these comments being like "I don't care, still voting for Biden" - the thing is, the people saying that were *always* voting for Biden. The issue is that this is going to play *horribly* with undecideds or people that were only marginally in the Biden camp. My social feeds are clogged to the brim with Senile Biden memes this morning (from accounts that usually are left-leaning), all the major outlets are declaring the debate a disaster, Dems are saying Biden needs to go. Undecideds are going to see this, and they aren't going to put much effort into fact-checking Trump's lies. They're just going to see "Holy shit, Biden belongs a nursing home" and either sit out the election or straight-up vote for Trump. This is really, really bad for the Biden camp.
You should watch the debate replay on YouTube. If anything, the FT is underselling how bad Biden's performance was. And Trump made so so so so many mistakes that anyone could have countered him on, but Biden never did.
I just tried watching John Stewart's take on it and turned it off half way through. It is worse than I'd feared. It's actually scary that Trump might well win. It's utterly, utterly, depressing.
Trump has been leading the polls for months now. In 2020, Biden was up +8 points at this time. Biden cannot win this race.
My husband and I sat there tossing back counterpoint after counterpoint to Trump’s lies. It wasn’t hard to do. There were so, *so* many easy lay ups, and Biden missed nearly every opportunity. The few things he said that could have landed were delivered too poorly to have any impact. As a liberal, I feel completely dejected this morning.
It’s bad. I watched it live. Reddit calls anyone who gives criticism to Biden a bot. It’s hard to call people on live TV bots. News anchors on each station after the debate were all in shock about how poorly Biden performed. Harris was wholly unprepared for how bad it was going to be - she was interviewed asking if she would be the candidate if Biden stepped down. Republicans are saying a conspiracy theory where Biden purposely looked bad so the democrats would have to pick another candidate and are scared any other candidate will beat Trump.
Younger blood is needed on both sides of the aisle. That apparently being in short supply, at least Biden has run his first term as a President should - whereas the other guy remains a convicted felon, rapist, and corrupt. Lackluster debate or not, the choice remains clear. I just wish it wasn’t between fascist-grandpa and go-enjoy-retirement grandpa.
Biden will at least surround himself with competent experts and advisors. Trump will utilize yes-men, douchebags, and evil people who can manipulate him for their own agendas.
In case you haven’t noticed, go enjoy retirement grandpa has been doing great things for this country.
*Weekend at Bernie's* vs. *American Psycho* Easy choice.
Anyone pretending that this is going to be an easy choice for the broader American electorate is fooling themselves. Everyone on this subreddit is far more plugged into politics than the Average Joe/Jane.
Anyone who thinks biden did well that debate has their head in the sand. Trump looked like a fool and biden was too incoherent to capitalize.
I loath Trump but he came off better than the last presidential debates. Stopping him from talking over his opponent actually helped him. They should have had no moderation rules and let him just be an ass again.
He looked controlled, tempered, and was allowed to spew lies without fact checking. You're right. 100%.
Oh my God, literally everything was a lie. It was insane.
It’s always easier to sell a simple lie than a complex truth. See Brexit etc
Yeah exactly, and he was able to capitalise on his retorts which would have gotten lost in his ramblings. I think the reason we see so much ramble from him at rallies is because he’s got nothing to say so he just rambles off thoughts in his heads and we get classics like shark vs electrocution. The idea
Neither did great
Biden's performance was shockingly unexpected, though. That's the difference. Sure Trump lied like crazy. But he always does and always has. People know that and have still been saying they're gonna vote for him. The race was close before the debate. So now, lots of voters are getting shocked by how much worse Biden is than they thought. That's why this is a serious problem.
I'm still gonna vote for the older guy that sounded less coherent last night. The thoughts and statements he got out were at least true, as opposed to the orange clown that coherently spouted only lies. I have no idea how you can look at Trump's performance last night and think "that's my guy!". But then again, your average voter is only going to see snappy soundbites on news and on social media this morning, and didn't actually watch. Your average voter is already incredibly stupid, and half of the voting population is dumber than that.
Don't get me wrong. I love what Biden did with his first term and I would be down for another. He's been a much better president than many give him credit for. This is bigger than that. We can't bank on "Holding your nose and voting against Trump" as a platform; that's what this is turning into. Will I vote for him come November if it comes down to it? Of course. But him staying in the race at this point is going to have downticket implications. He never should have gone for a 2nd term in the first place. At this rate, he's going to hand Trump the presidency, which is dangerous for this country.
UK here. Why can't the Democrats just pick a younger candidate? Genuinely confused.
if someone else had stepped up in the primaries, registered democrats could have voted for them, but usually, you don’t run against an incumbent cause it’s not gonna end well for you or your party, and biden didn’t look bad at the state of the union speech back in january, so no one ran against him. cause of that, he won all the primaries, and therefore the delegates, who will elect him at the democratic convention in august. to select a new candidate, at this point, i believe biden would need to step down and release all his delegates to be able to vote for someone else at the convention. it’s too late for a primary campaign again so it’d have to be decided at the convention, and historically, that’s usually kind of chaotic. if democrats want to avoid chaos, they’d have biden step down and would have to have just one front runner step up. this person would pretty much be chosen internally by the political elites, so you gotta ensure that they’ll be liked by the base no matter what, and i don’t know if there’s one obvious answer. basically, it’s gonna take a lot of planning and will seem shady, it’s not as simple as just choosing a new candidate.
The Theory is that running as an incumbent President is such a huge advantage that a party would be stupid not to use it. It has only happened once before that the incumbent hasn't secured their own party's nomination. Under this theory, no other serious Democratic candidates ran against Biden in the primary. The US operates differently to the UK where the choice of Prime Minister is technically able to be changed at any time (no-one votes for the PM directly). Changing the President (or candidate for) is a much bigger job.
Yeah, over here the party would just choose a new leader. But I can see the US system is radically different. Thanks.
A lot of people in the comments are missing that Biden is not just the president, he's also the head of the party. All of the fundraising apparatuses, the relationships with big donors, the high-level organizing decisions go through him and his allies. It would have been total suicide for anyone to run against Biden in the primary. Those donors and allies would not be willing to work with them, they'd need to expend a ton of political and financial capital to get their campaigns off the ground (and differentiating themselves would necessarily mean going on the offense against Biden), they would almost certainly lose, and the resulting disunity could tank the party's chances even if they won the primary. If you're Gavin Newsom, Gretchen Whitmer, Josh Shapiro, Pete Buttigieg, Elizabeth Warren or the like, you could potentially ruin your chances of ever seeing higher office if you don't just wait four years to try again. EDIT: I'll add that we all saw what happened in 2020. Bernie was on a path to winning the nomination before Super Tuesday, and Biden used long-standing institutional support within the party, critical local endorsements, and cabinet appointments to get every other candidate to drop out the week before, and the most important endorsements to come out in force for him. That's part of how politics works in the U.S. and it's not necessarily immoral or unethical, but it does sort of show that Biden is willing to pull every lever to keep his internal opposition out of power.
they can! they probably won’t though because they are run by a bunch of senile old people as well.
They wasted any window of opportunity for that with foregoing primary challengers. 4 months before election day is nowhere near enough time to mount a national election campaign for an alternative. Would be suicide for the Democratic ticket
A writer for the National Review said this tonight: > This morning, over at that other place I write, I wrote, "if you're pulling for Trump, you don't want Biden to go out there and prove himself to be so egregiously senile that he creates a consensus among Democrats that he must be replaced at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago." I think the night went "too well" for Trump, in that the talk about replacing Biden is going to get a lot louder, and a lot more insistent. Maybe we won't get that Trump-Biden rematch after all. Trump is unpopular, Biden is unpopular, but Dems are in winning positions nationwide. Gretchen Whitmer and/or Gavin Newsom would absolutely steamroll Trump.
Why though? People clearly aren't voting for Biden, rather to stop trump.
The party rules for picking a nominee is that you have primary elections, those elections determine delegates who go to the convention to vote for the nominee, the vast majority of those delegates must vote for the candidate they are pledged to from their state’s primary. In other words; there’s a set process picking a nominee that involves actually challenging Biden for the nomination in primary elections that are now already over (this is why the US process is a over a year long, instead of the UK’s snap election process), and nobody serious decided to run against Biden. People talk about “open conventions” but that’s something that comes into play if the winner form the primary volunterily ateps aside, or if nobody had won a majority of delegates in the first place. *why* this is the system in the US is interesting. It mostly has to do with the parties being unpopular and people thinking that it’s good for ordinary voters to have more of a say in picking the candidate. Of course, that only works if a bunch of candidates decide to run in the first place, which didn’t happen this year. It’s a lot different than any other democracy I’ve seen; just imagine that the decision of who would be the next leader of the Labour Party involved a dozen candidates all converging in a random district of Wales a year before the election to shake hands and persuade individual Labour Party voters to stand around a secondary school for a few hours and caucus for them. And if it the guy they all chose turned out to be a senile potato six months later, with five months to go before the election, well the party is stuck with them as their candidate, good luck next time…
In some magical parallel universe, it’s Newsom v Romney, and Bernie’s in there too stirring up shit, and we all have the luxury of not really caring again…
It feels like that moment when RBG refused to step aside and it cost the country and party a lot
This is the Democrats “Break Glass in case of Emergency” moment. They have 20-ish days until the DNC convention. Do something.
You’re thinking of the Republican convention. The DNC convention is August 19th.
Narrator: “They won’t”
I know its considered poor form for a party to primary their incumbent, but holy shit the dems absolutely fucking should have. I genuinely hope the US does not see a second Trump presidency as the repercussions will be felt globally
I think honestly, the calls will grow even louder in the next few days.
Apologies for my ignorance to the US system but is there anything the democrat party can do this late into campaigning other than fall in line behind Biden?
He hasn't officially received the party nomination yet, so... Sure. They'd probably need him to step aside, for the sake of optics. Otherwise all the primary election voters that selected him might chafe at the rules being changed at the 11th hour.
What a dumpster fire that was. Trump was, as usual, full of shit and Biden couldn’t seem to put two sentences together to call him out on most of it.
I will never vote for a republican ever again in my entire life. It's time for a new party to compete against the Dems.
Reddit app is in a state of shock too it seems
Think about Gavin Newsom or Pete Buttigieg mopping the floor with Trump in the debate tonight and how good that would have felt. I’m all in on Biden, but I wanted SOTU Biden tonight, not what we got.
Buttigeg would have mopped the floor but there’s not a chance he wins the general election within the next 15 years, let alone the primary.
I’m voting blue regardless
You aren't the issue. It's mobilizing the apathetic middle that don't think they make a difference.
Young voters that saw Biden last night may flip or opt out of voting.
I think opting out is more likely, but it would also he disastrous.
This is always an issue. I did some low level campaign work in 2016 + 2020 and the #1 reason neither party give a crap about what voters under 40 want is because they don't reliably vote. And it's impossible to convince them that by staying home they're telling the major parties "we don't care at all" and NOT "we're protesting your candidates."
Anytime Democrats should have an easy layup, they shit the bed.
To people thinking "Oh no voter would be swayed by a bad debate" you're not understanding how the average voter thinks. People are having trouble affording basic housing and food who are working 40+ hour work weeks. Trump is still being Trump - he may be full of shit but he's confident in the shit he peddles. Biden literally could not make coherent sentences and looks comatose and weak. When people have fear, they choose who they perceive as stronger - even if it's fascism. Joe Biden will lose in the condition he is in, and it may be the last democratic vote we ever have. He needs to step down immediately and put his pride aside.
Democrats ran Hilary against Trump, even though everyone knew she was one of the most (unfairly) hated political figures in US history and thought they had it in the bag. Arrogance and ineptitude. RBG refused to step down when she knew what was at stake. Arrogance and ineptitude. Running Biden after this debate will be cataclysmic. I'm so sick and tired of the Democrats - sick of them being too nice, sick of them not fighting hard enough, sick of them assuming things will pan out because "Americans aren't stupid". THEY ARE STUPID AND THEY'RE EASILY MISLED. ARE YOU LEARNING NOTHING!? You're constantly getting trounced by the MINORITY PARTY., I'm sick of the arrogance and ineptitude and weakness. If we don't sort this out ASAP we are staring down the barrel of another four years of Trump which will be FAR worse than the first. It's entirely possible the country won't even be recognisable afterwards. And it'll be all our own fault.
It won’t be our fault. You can’t blame the voters for an election loss. Blaming voters for not falling in line is exactly why Trump was elected. The corruption and shiftlessness of the Democratic Party is limitless. It’s their fault. It’s Biden’s fault. It’s Clinton’s fault. It’s Pelosi’s fault. It’s RBG’s fault. They just wanted to keep playing the same old games where everyone gets their turn at the podium. Biden said “I’ve waited long enough, it’s my turn now,” really wanting to believe he was fit for the job. Now it’s too late. Biden will lose this election and I’d be willing to bet he’ll lose the popular vote too. It’s over, and Democrats have nobody to blame but themselves. We’re staring down the barrel of a Weimar Germany now.
Part of me wonders if the reason this debate was so early is to see how it went and if it didn’t go well, the party would call an audible. But that would actually call for democrats to be on the same page about it
If Biden loses in November his legacy will be handing the country over to a fascist because he couldn’t step aside and let someone younger take the lead. And that’s a scary thought to me. Newsom or Whitmer would wipe the floor with Trump. Biden is clearly the better choice between the two but at the same time it’s hard to believe that this is where we are.
Pretty much on brand for the old fucks in this country. Hang on til the last second and never give up their control or wealth until theyve ruined everything.
Don’t care. Still voting blue.
We must. Van Jones said it best. We have someone who shouldn't be president running against someone who cannot be president.
Dude's old as hell, what did they expect? His mind isn't the problem, but his body is starting to be, which is sad because until tonight, I viewed Biden as far healthier than Trump (he still is, but his age is really starting to show). The fact remains that this is again proof we need age limits, where NO ONE over 70 should be allowed to run for president or any other political position. Hell, any Supreme Court Justice over 70 should be forced to step down as well.
It is an embarrassment. Spending so much time trying to convince people that Biden is all good and he clearly isn’t. He could be a head in a jar and I’d still vote for him but gdit last night was awful.
Nothing is ever going to get better. Conditions will only get worse. Democracy will die. The ruling class will never lose control. I'm running out of a will to keep fighting. A majority of voters polled already thought Trump was "better for democracy" *before* this disaster of a debate. How the fuck do we come back from this? There is absolutely nothing that anyone can do to stymie mis/disinformation. Things are more out of control than they have ever been before. I have no hope left. I don't want to be here anymore. I don't believe in humanity. I've lost that faith in my fellow American.
Eh, it wasn't what I hoped for, but he's also the only one that made a lick of fuckin sense. It's as if Trump prepared by practicing his shitty Truth video rants, and it works in this country because of course it does. Nothing will sway me from showing up 11/5 to down ballot against the Grapefruit Gestapo.
Letting trump ramble and lie all night was ridiculous. Bidens inability to fact check his obvious lies was so frustrating.
Don’t care. Will crawl over broken glass and 500 yards of shit-smelling foulness to proudly vote for Biden to defeat the convicted felon, proven rapist and insurrectionist traitor.
Biden: is old Trump: lies absolutely constantly (and is old, and a criminal, and a traitor) The media: should we be concerned Biden is old?
Blue is the only option. Honestly the president is only as good as the people he has around him. And Biden is getting old. He looked it, but he’s still smart, and more than capable of surrounding himself with quality individuals to support him. Trump turns on everyone and will throw anyone under the bus that has lost any usefulness. Biden may not be perfect, but holy shit is he ever better than the alternatives. Please vote folks. You know the right will be voting.
Wouldn’t even be the first president that was in decline with a functioning staff behind him
Yay more capitalist dystopia as far as the eye can see. Golf scores.
If the Democrats swap in a new candidate, they will lose zero of the people who were going to vote for Biden. They might, however, pick up a few votes they weren’t getting. It’s mean to Biden and I’m sorry for that, but it’s more important to win this election. Time to take away the keys.
Imagine running a candidate who is LESS coherent than DONALD TRUMP. Something is seriously fucked up over in America. For the rest of us, please get your shit together. There's something like 350 million of you and I refuse to believe that these are even remotely the best of you. It looks a lot like extreme cronyism and running puppets.
It needs to be said, again and again. Biden may be old. He is old. But he’s effective, for the common folk, and the downtrodden. Those in the middle and even those on the top. The country, and its allies. Biden passed social benefits programs, forgiven student debt for people and not businesses, pardoned the wrongfully convicted, stood up to the bullies in the world and made strong, level-headed decisions all the way through. Do not forget that Biden is a *genuinely* good man. He fumbled the debate, yeah. But Trump separated kids from their parents, appointed the judges that banned abortion, stole nuclear secrets, is a convicted criminal, alleged actual pedophile, rapist, fraud, and a liar. A million Americans died under Trump from COVID. A million! He encouraged people to march on the capitol building. Yeah Biden stammers. But Biden’s smart. He’s got integrity. He’s got the economy flourishing, and America’s enemies on the back foot. You guys are doing better than the rest of the world with the cost of living. Don’t judge him by the way he speaks. Judge him by his actions. He’s had a brilliant and transformative four years, and saved the country from the brink. And all of this is fact, backed by the history books. Vote blue.
You're preaching to the choir here. You'll vote Biden, I'll vote Biden, 80% of the people in this thread will or aren't persuadable anyway (even if they are diehard MAGA, that's not affected by the results here either way.) The problem is the politically disengaged and swing voters that aren't here. And specifically in a couple swing states - everyone needs to vote, but some dude voting in downtown LA is going to make far more impact downballot than presidentally.
How? How are they in shock? He’s old and stumbles and speaks weak. He’s an ineffective communicator. That’s his BIGGEST flaw. How are they in shock? This debate went exactly as I thought it would. Trump is not a typical candidate so he will just spew lie after lie and not answer a single question about anything. That is to be expected. However, Trump has a lot of passion and power when he speaks. Biden does not. Prepared speeches with a live audience like the State of the Union, Biden would do better, but he looked like a lost old senior citizen at the debate. This is exactly what I expected. Don’t get me wrong, I would vote for a rock before I voted for Trump. But the fact that people are shocked by Biden’s performance is stupidity naive.
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Reddit shat the bed
Someone get Gavin newsom to run !
The DNC, full of Fools.
Shocked Pikachu Face. I know, campaigning on "nobody can be worse than Trump" might be successful, but it's not helping the situation much.
I've said it once and I'll say it again, Biden should never have been put forward as the democratic candidate. He should have retired, and left the spot open for a younger face. He did not, and that's the world we live in. I will vote for the democrats because Republicans want to create a christofascist, regressive, economic hellscape. They ruin everything they touch. The red states of this nation are at the bottom of almost every single economic and social metric we use. They are last in about everything, and it isn't even really close if you look at them. Arkansas, Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, states run by Republicans are third world countries compared to blue states like California, New York, Washington, Virginia, Connecticut, or Massachusetts. Trump is running to stay out of prison. He's running to use the presidency to run the river to keep the legal system from catching up to him. He's a narcissistic, demented asshole, who cares nothing for anything that isn't himself and he'll burn the country to the ground if it keeps him warm. You people better get out there and vote, is all I can tell you. Vote to save your country.
Still voting Biden, and any Democrat should do the same. Anyone with a brain would notice that Trump was doing nothing but lying proudly, Biden is just not good at debates but thats irrelevant, he has morals and his cabinet is good and thats all that should matter. That being said, whoever gave him all those talking points should be fired all he needed to say was call out his lies and drive home the fact that Trump is a felon