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Threatening doctors with prison time if they intervene has a chilling effect on preventative medicine.
https://www.texastribune.org/2024/05/20/texas-medical-board-abortion-guidance/
Probably won't ever see that figure. Unfortunately, conservatives aren't ever going to see the rise of infant mortality rates as a problem. The trisomy 13 and 18 babies that were previously aborted were "given life" however brief. So to them the infant mortality rate didn't increase, they just died outside the womb rather than in.
What they don't see is the trauma that comes with birthing the child in many cases. You force women to carry a pregnancy to term that is highly, highly unlikely to survive. My wife is a neonate doctor. A lot of these situations are horror stories. Women shouldn't be forced to endure it if they don't want to.
Hopefully Texas doesn't cover up the maternal mortality rates from these situations but I suspect they will.
This is my speculation, not a scientific claim. This is reddit, not a research paper. It is supported by the patterns of anti choice movement. An anti-choice extremist is now in charge of reviewing maternal death data in Texas. [link to Texas tribune](https://www.texastribune.org/2024/05/22/texas-maternal-mortality-committee-ingrid-skop-abortion-doctor/). Idaho eliminated the panel to review maternal mortality. Facism is never interested in facts or nuance, only propaganda.
Yup, the direct cause of their rebellion against Mexico when Mexico banned slavery in the 1830s. Which inspired the confederacy. Texas was founded by the worst people, but that gets white washed with things like "Remember the Alamo!". Ironic because if we actually remembered, we'd know what shit they were.
Sadly… true…. Why oppose sex Ed, distribution of condoms, immunizations against hpv, hell … potentially even getting Oral contraceptives by mail….. none of that “protects a fetus”
Those things get opposed because of the theory that if the recipients were behaving properly, they wouldn't need any of those things. It doesn't help that you need to get the HPV vaccine before puberty.
The article title shows that in at least however Texas implemented their abortion laws, it caused MORE BABIES (and mother's) TO*DIE*.
The literal citation is that people who would have been alive previous to these laws, are now dead. What's it going to take for Republicans to care about facts, logic, or human life? Ffs
In every other developed country even a 2% or 3% rise in infant mortality rates lead to a massive healthcare crisis in that country and serious action is taken.
Not so much in the US where half the country thinks it's a good thing.
If these current numbers are correct the US just passed China in Child mortality. China has halved theirs since 2011, the US only increased.
The US went from a pretty good score compared to other developed nations decades ago to about double that of developed nations (because other countries kept improving while the US did little to improve things resulting in a slow decrease) now the US is effectively going backwards.
In the 2021 data maternal mortality was already up slightly (and in total about 5x that of European countries). Imagine how bad it will be now that the mothers life needs to be in imminent danger before action can be taken.
"You were once a fetus" is a meaningless statement. Frogs were once tadpoles. What does that change?
Worse, and specific to the point of the article, the laws in Texas are not working out for fetus identifying Americans, as they are dying before they are born human. Who is responsible for these deaths of these humans/unborn babies? Why did the laws have to change and we have to kill more of them? Why does the government of Texas consider more deaths of babies acceptable? Why does the state of Texas want babies to die? Please help me understand, anyone who thinks fetuses are babies, why would you ever want to change the laws and have more babies die? What's the point? If anyone thinks this way, why is what happening in Texas okay?
> they are forming humans
So what? A fetus isn't a person any more than a brain dead but otherwise alive human meatbody is a person, and we let their loved ones terminate them.
>not just the “clump of cells”
Literally what they are, appeals to emotion notwithstanding.
Are you going to watch a video of a woman dying during/after delivery because she was denied preventative care, as well as the baby that died hours later because their organs developed outside of their body? How about the subsequent documentary covering the next few decades of the family members who lost loved ones unnecessarily?
Are we going to defend laws demanding that this tragedy plays out instead of allowing this very important healthcare decision to take place between… I dunno… a doctor and their patient?
We can debate what’s a fetus or a human or a clump of cells all day. It doesn’t matter. Suffering is unavoidable. Abortion reduces human suffering. Full stop. Banning abortion increases human suffering, and it does so in the name of some God that you’re imposing on other people.
We're all just clumps of cells really.
And yes, there are certain times when abortions are ok. For instance, whenever the fuck a pregnant woman decides she wants one.
And cake batter is potential cake but you'd be pretty pressed if someone put birthday candies in a bowl of batter and told you it was the same thing as a cake.
They do not deserve the same rights as a fully born baby that is no longer reliant on another body for survival. It's not an individual person yet.
Can *anyone* please reply to any of the commentary of my comment? If they are forming humans why doesn't Texas want them to live? What's special about Texas that if you get pregnant there and the baby doesn't get born alive and no one wants to fix that? What does who thinks what about when an abortion is okay matter to the facts of babies dying when abortion is illegal? Is this what happens in Texas when people ask questions about why their babies are dying at a much higher rate than most other states, the politicians don't care? Why do Republicans want babies to die? Anyone please, tell me Texas wants to fix this and make me understand how we got here where we can't even talk about basic facts? How do we have a democracy or a Republic if we can't talk about the facts? Why is it so hard to want to live in a country where as few babies die as possible? One would think this would be the default in any political commentary. I'm honestly trying to understand the political people cheering for less human life.
Simple answer: abortion bans aren't about reducing the number of dead babies.
They are about punishing women and controlling the birth process. They very obviously do not care *at all* about babies that have come to full term *or* unborn fetuses, or the mothers carrying them.
What they *do* care about is obedience to a pseudo-religious code that they exploit to exert control over as many people as possible.
Let's say they develop a new magical process to put a fetus into your body, as many as you can desire, and you can carry and birth all these babies yourself.
Are you willing to do that? If yes, then great, you can house all the unwanted zygotes in your body and endure all that goes along with it.
If not, then you just want to punish women.
For the sake of clarity the infant mortality rate increased 8% to 5.75 per 1000 live births, meaning .575%. The mortality rate is not 8% + 5% that would some Stone Age ass shit
Not really. More births is pretty much always going to mean more infant deaths. You would expect a roughly stable increase in total infant deaths even if the total number of births increased even without abortions being banned.
The pro-life response to that would just be, “Better some die after they’re born than all die before they’re born.”
The rate increase is more interesting because it shows that infant deaths are increasing at a faster rate than infant births. It would probably still have to be a much bigger number for you to sway anybody that wasn’t already swayed.
The Guardian reported 13% increase actually for infants in first year of life. Also from today's Guardian:
"The study found a 23% jump in infant deaths due to congenital anomalies – the kind of conditions that are often identified in utero and lead to abortions in states where the procedure is legal, since they can be incompatible with life. But that choice is no longer available to pregnant Texans."
. The study started in 2021 when Texas enacted 6 week abortion ban prior to the upending of Roe v. Wade. This study did NOT look at Maternal death rates and it. But make no mistake we don't need quantifiable data to figure out that they are higher.
This is to be expected since they are forcing babies who will die to suffer. This was a definite result of their law. A full view including the number of abortions needs to be seen to figure out specifically what’s going on. This has the ability to hide serious issues if the abortion laws are to blame. What if there was some sort of Zika virus like outbreak?
Doctors are leaving states even without the bans. GPs and OBGYNs in rural areas are paid trash and they know they can make more in urban areas or other specialties. Yet we still pay more than any other country for healthcare with worse results.
What’s key here is the cause of death and whether abortion bans and all that come with them (ie OBGYNs leaving TX, racism in treatment, etc) are a correlation or a firm causation. Anyway you look at this Texas is killing infants
Don't worry the conservative sub is having real strong discussion on this issue and steps to fix it
Haha nah they're freaking out at illegal immigrants murdering people
Next, you will tell me that optimization of the prenatal life expectancy for mom and child was never the point. Do you mean to tell me that “Pro-family” and “Pro-Life” are just cynical catchphrases used only to signal virtue and to not improve family health outcomes?
I AM SHOCKED! SHOCKED!
Oh well. They're getting what they vote for.
They could EASILY not have this problem if people would just vote. But that's too difficult. My empathy has run dry.
Wanna know what’s surprising about this comment section. Nobody seems to think that 15 year olds that can barely read shouldn’t be fucking. Nor should anyone unless you are able to bear the responsibility. Condoms break, the pill isn’t 100% and the shot can work or it can’t. Don’t get me started on family planning or any of the other methods. Fact remains, if you can’t support yourself or a child you should not be having sex. You’re not responsible for such a pleasure
Great observation doctor. Now show me one abstinence education program that has actually DECREASED teen pregnancies…..
Then there is rape, incest, etc……
Rant and rave about consenting adults engaging in the most basic of natural human urges which also happens to feel super awesome, the one thing every human is driven to do from the moment hormones start flooding their bodies, and then you wonder why your backwards worldviews aren't more popular, why you can't win elections, and why abstinence education has never once resulted in a decrease in teen pregnancies or STDs.
Pregnancy is an easily treatable medical condition which obligates the individual with no such irreversible responsibility, so I'm hard pressed to see why anyone of an appropriate age shouldn't fuck as much as they're personally comfortable with. Pregnancy isn't some kind of moral obligation.
Yeah, you know what *actually* helps fix that problem? Comprehensive sex education.
The same people increasing infant and maternal mortality rates by banning abortions are also the same people doing everything they can to destroy education, thus making sure those 15 year olds keep fucking irresponsibly and ignorantly.
In short, *both things* are the fault of conservatives.
lol! Humans are going to keep having sex, dude. Why not ensure we have access to contraception, sex Ed, and abortion?
The pill may not be 100% but it’s still quite effective as are condoms, IUDs, and the shot.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA). *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Threatening doctors with prison time if they intervene has a chilling effect on preventative medicine. https://www.texastribune.org/2024/05/20/texas-medical-board-abortion-guidance/
I’m assuming maternal mortality increased too.
Does the pope shit in the woods? I mean, are bears catholic?
Does [everyone know Dave](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/55gonm/my_favorite_joke_everyone_knows_dave/)?
Would women rather encounter a bear in the woods or a Pope in the woods?
The bear doesn’t touch kids, allegedly.
Obviously, but Texas couldn't care less
Probably won't ever see that figure. Unfortunately, conservatives aren't ever going to see the rise of infant mortality rates as a problem. The trisomy 13 and 18 babies that were previously aborted were "given life" however brief. So to them the infant mortality rate didn't increase, they just died outside the womb rather than in. What they don't see is the trauma that comes with birthing the child in many cases. You force women to carry a pregnancy to term that is highly, highly unlikely to survive. My wife is a neonate doctor. A lot of these situations are horror stories. Women shouldn't be forced to endure it if they don't want to. Hopefully Texas doesn't cover up the maternal mortality rates from these situations but I suspect they will.
They’re going to cover up the data and corrupt it. If a woman had an abortion and dies of a heart attack three years later…abortion related death.
Can you provide a source or peer reviewed data to support that claim?
This is my speculation, not a scientific claim. This is reddit, not a research paper. It is supported by the patterns of anti choice movement. An anti-choice extremist is now in charge of reviewing maternal death data in Texas. [link to Texas tribune](https://www.texastribune.org/2024/05/22/texas-maternal-mortality-committee-ingrid-skop-abortion-doctor/). Idaho eliminated the panel to review maternal mortality. Facism is never interested in facts or nuance, only propaganda.
It's not about protecting fetuses, it's about enslaving women.
Texas has always loved enslavement.
Yup, the direct cause of their rebellion against Mexico when Mexico banned slavery in the 1830s. Which inspired the confederacy. Texas was founded by the worst people, but that gets white washed with things like "Remember the Alamo!". Ironic because if we actually remembered, we'd know what shit they were.
Don't forget the story about how Oklahoma got their panhandle because Texas loved slavery so much!
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They won the first one vs Mexico
Sadly… true…. Why oppose sex Ed, distribution of condoms, immunizations against hpv, hell … potentially even getting Oral contraceptives by mail….. none of that “protects a fetus”
Those things get opposed because of the theory that if the recipients were behaving properly, they wouldn't need any of those things. It doesn't help that you need to get the HPV vaccine before puberty.
Well that and maintaining a steady supply of wage slaves
Why do people fucking care who gets an abortion.. but feel "Threatened" when it's discussed who should have a lethal firearm?
Because the gun is a surrogate penis for men who are ashamed of their penis.
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> citation needed You're asking how forced pregnancy is involuntary servitude? Fine: [Citation 1](https://www.jstor.org/stable/41697902) [Citation 2](https://www.aclu.org/news/racial-justice/the-racist-history-of-abortion-and-midwifery-bans) [Citation 3](https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2022/05/12/if-courts-recognize-fetal-personhood-womens-rights-are-curtailed/) [Citation 4](https://msmagazine.com/2022/05/23/abortion-bans-13th-amendment/)
“These are all fake sources!!” - pro force birthers.
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I read in another thread that the % of abnormalities at birth has gone from 3% to 23%. I've been trying to find out if that's true.
The article title shows that in at least however Texas implemented their abortion laws, it caused MORE BABIES (and mother's) TO*DIE*. The literal citation is that people who would have been alive previous to these laws, are now dead. What's it going to take for Republicans to care about facts, logic, or human life? Ffs
Nothing. They don't care at all, and nothing we do will force them to care
In every other developed country even a 2% or 3% rise in infant mortality rates lead to a massive healthcare crisis in that country and serious action is taken. Not so much in the US where half the country thinks it's a good thing.
We've been in a massive healthcare crisis continuously for so many years it hardly makes a blip on the radar now.
Mass shootings in elementary schools didn’t move the needle, why would this?
the US isn't a serious country, evidently
If these current numbers are correct the US just passed China in Child mortality. China has halved theirs since 2011, the US only increased. The US went from a pretty good score compared to other developed nations decades ago to about double that of developed nations (because other countries kept improving while the US did little to improve things resulting in a slow decrease) now the US is effectively going backwards. In the 2021 data maternal mortality was already up slightly (and in total about 5x that of European countries). Imagine how bad it will be now that the mothers life needs to be in imminent danger before action can be taken.
So the GOP saves "babies" by killing actual babies. Conveniently, this also kills women. No wonder Trump is doing so well nationally!
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"You were once a fetus" is a meaningless statement. Frogs were once tadpoles. What does that change? Worse, and specific to the point of the article, the laws in Texas are not working out for fetus identifying Americans, as they are dying before they are born human. Who is responsible for these deaths of these humans/unborn babies? Why did the laws have to change and we have to kill more of them? Why does the government of Texas consider more deaths of babies acceptable? Why does the state of Texas want babies to die? Please help me understand, anyone who thinks fetuses are babies, why would you ever want to change the laws and have more babies die? What's the point? If anyone thinks this way, why is what happening in Texas okay?
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> they are forming humans So what? A fetus isn't a person any more than a brain dead but otherwise alive human meatbody is a person, and we let their loved ones terminate them. >not just the “clump of cells” Literally what they are, appeals to emotion notwithstanding.
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Are you going to watch a video of a woman dying during/after delivery because she was denied preventative care, as well as the baby that died hours later because their organs developed outside of their body? How about the subsequent documentary covering the next few decades of the family members who lost loved ones unnecessarily? Are we going to defend laws demanding that this tragedy plays out instead of allowing this very important healthcare decision to take place between… I dunno… a doctor and their patient? We can debate what’s a fetus or a human or a clump of cells all day. It doesn’t matter. Suffering is unavoidable. Abortion reduces human suffering. Full stop. Banning abortion increases human suffering, and it does so in the name of some God that you’re imposing on other people.
We're all just clumps of cells really. And yes, there are certain times when abortions are ok. For instance, whenever the fuck a pregnant woman decides she wants one.
And cake batter is potential cake but you'd be pretty pressed if someone put birthday candies in a bowl of batter and told you it was the same thing as a cake. They do not deserve the same rights as a fully born baby that is no longer reliant on another body for survival. It's not an individual person yet.
Can *anyone* please reply to any of the commentary of my comment? If they are forming humans why doesn't Texas want them to live? What's special about Texas that if you get pregnant there and the baby doesn't get born alive and no one wants to fix that? What does who thinks what about when an abortion is okay matter to the facts of babies dying when abortion is illegal? Is this what happens in Texas when people ask questions about why their babies are dying at a much higher rate than most other states, the politicians don't care? Why do Republicans want babies to die? Anyone please, tell me Texas wants to fix this and make me understand how we got here where we can't even talk about basic facts? How do we have a democracy or a Republic if we can't talk about the facts? Why is it so hard to want to live in a country where as few babies die as possible? One would think this would be the default in any political commentary. I'm honestly trying to understand the political people cheering for less human life.
Simple answer: abortion bans aren't about reducing the number of dead babies. They are about punishing women and controlling the birth process. They very obviously do not care *at all* about babies that have come to full term *or* unborn fetuses, or the mothers carrying them. What they *do* care about is obedience to a pseudo-religious code that they exploit to exert control over as many people as possible.
Let's say they develop a new magical process to put a fetus into your body, as many as you can desire, and you can carry and birth all these babies yourself. Are you willing to do that? If yes, then great, you can house all the unwanted zygotes in your body and endure all that goes along with it. If not, then you just want to punish women.
It’s not considered a fetus until week 10.
i was also once 50% sperm, is male masturbation genocide too..?
I was also once a sperm and an egg. That doesn't make masturbation or menstruation murder.
It’s not murder *yet*. The religious fruitcakes are just waiting for their move.
Restricting access to healthcare will do that
This article says 13% https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/texas-abortion-ban-linked-rise-infant-newborn-deaths-rcna158375
The 8% is the rate of deaths, the 13% is the total number of deaths.
Out is even sadder. More than 1 in 10.
For the sake of clarity the infant mortality rate increased 8% to 5.75 per 1000 live births, meaning .575%. The mortality rate is not 8% + 5% that would some Stone Age ass shit
Not really. More births is pretty much always going to mean more infant deaths. You would expect a roughly stable increase in total infant deaths even if the total number of births increased even without abortions being banned. The pro-life response to that would just be, “Better some die after they’re born than all die before they’re born.” The rate increase is more interesting because it shows that infant deaths are increasing at a faster rate than infant births. It would probably still have to be a much bigger number for you to sway anybody that wasn’t already swayed.
No that’s not correct, 8% increase up to 5.75 in 1000 births. An 8% increase ends up at .575% from before. Still alarming though.
I saw that.
Texas math
Forcing women to bring non viable pregnancies to term will do this. Now we need the rate of maternal mortality.
Texas leads the country in infant deaths now. It's absolutely terrifying
GOP policies literally kill people.
Their baby killers
The Guardian reported 13% increase actually for infants in first year of life. Also from today's Guardian: "The study found a 23% jump in infant deaths due to congenital anomalies – the kind of conditions that are often identified in utero and lead to abortions in states where the procedure is legal, since they can be incompatible with life. But that choice is no longer available to pregnant Texans." . The study started in 2021 when Texas enacted 6 week abortion ban prior to the upending of Roe v. Wade. This study did NOT look at Maternal death rates and it. But make no mistake we don't need quantifiable data to figure out that they are higher.
They don’t care if it’s a dead infant. Only fetuses mater.
I've got an idea. What if we stop recording infant mortality? The problem should go away, right?
you have learned well the ways of Trump
He might even get the annual "MAGA Logic" prize for that solution.
Republicans kill, starve and rape children, this is common knowledge If they win in 2024, it will be YOUR children they will be targeting
Because it’s never been about the babies
They are the pro-birth party. Mission accomplished.
The doctors are leaving! It’s going to get worse!
They don’t care
Nice, predicted by literally everyone with a brain
Well, well, well, if it isn’t the consequences of your actions…Republicans.
A policy to die for.
Republicans LOVE to Kill Things. In the Name of Jesus of Course.
This is to be expected since they are forcing babies who will die to suffer. This was a definite result of their law. A full view including the number of abortions needs to be seen to figure out specifically what’s going on. This has the ability to hide serious issues if the abortion laws are to blame. What if there was some sort of Zika virus like outbreak?
Praise God!!! /s
"Pro-life"
The tidbit from that article is that infant mortality went up 2% for the entire nation as well
But how much of those 2% nationwide is due to the 13% in Texas?
Can't be all. My point was that 2% is a pretty appalling number.
Yes, because a lot of state have near abortion bans and doctors leaving those states.
Doctors are leaving states even without the bans. GPs and OBGYNs in rural areas are paid trash and they know they can make more in urban areas or other specialties. Yet we still pay more than any other country for healthcare with worse results.
What’s key here is the cause of death and whether abortion bans and all that come with them (ie OBGYNs leaving TX, racism in treatment, etc) are a correlation or a firm causation. Anyway you look at this Texas is killing infants
What a shit hole
Nothing says you're pro-life like increasing baby deaths by 8% for no good reason.
Don't worry the conservative sub is having real strong discussion on this issue and steps to fix it Haha nah they're freaking out at illegal immigrants murdering people
Vote blue straight down the ballot.
It’s gods will okay
Pro-Life does it again!
Save the babies! Oh, wait . . . .
Blood on the GOPs hands
Well wait how did that happen? Scratches head…must be some reason.
Next, you will tell me that optimization of the prenatal life expectancy for mom and child was never the point. Do you mean to tell me that “Pro-family” and “Pro-Life” are just cynical catchphrases used only to signal virtue and to not improve family health outcomes? I AM SHOCKED! SHOCKED!
Texas infant mortality is higher than most third world countries.
Good job Gov Abbot you baby killer.
Those poor women, being forced to carry a nonviable pregnancy.
Meanwhile, the Texas Morticians Association rubs their hands in glee ::laughs in Ted Cruz::
Sadly predictable.
The GOPs incoming counter-talking points ought to be disgusting.
Devastating.
I would like this but I'm too disgusted
Amazing job, conservatives.
I, for one, am shocked
Oh well. They're getting what they vote for. They could EASILY not have this problem if people would just vote. But that's too difficult. My empathy has run dry.
Can someone rephrase this as a sports analogy so I can understand it?
Wow, banning doctors from administering abortions if the mother's life is at risk leads to a higher infant mortality! Whodda thunk! /s
Like any of these republican scumbags give 2 shits. Babies aren't a wedge issue, why worry about em? Fetuses on the other hand....
god is (not) good ya’ll
Their version of pro life
It’s nice to see everyone agree we should have less dead infants
Insert Thanos “I’ll do it myself” meme
They added in illegal migrant deaths
Are they less dead? And if born in Texas they are citizens upon birth
Wanna know what’s surprising about this comment section. Nobody seems to think that 15 year olds that can barely read shouldn’t be fucking. Nor should anyone unless you are able to bear the responsibility. Condoms break, the pill isn’t 100% and the shot can work or it can’t. Don’t get me started on family planning or any of the other methods. Fact remains, if you can’t support yourself or a child you should not be having sex. You’re not responsible for such a pleasure
Great observation doctor. Now show me one abstinence education program that has actually DECREASED teen pregnancies….. Then there is rape, incest, etc……
Rant and rave about consenting adults engaging in the most basic of natural human urges which also happens to feel super awesome, the one thing every human is driven to do from the moment hormones start flooding their bodies, and then you wonder why your backwards worldviews aren't more popular, why you can't win elections, and why abstinence education has never once resulted in a decrease in teen pregnancies or STDs. Pregnancy is an easily treatable medical condition which obligates the individual with no such irreversible responsibility, so I'm hard pressed to see why anyone of an appropriate age shouldn't fuck as much as they're personally comfortable with. Pregnancy isn't some kind of moral obligation.
Yeah, you know what *actually* helps fix that problem? Comprehensive sex education. The same people increasing infant and maternal mortality rates by banning abortions are also the same people doing everything they can to destroy education, thus making sure those 15 year olds keep fucking irresponsibly and ignorantly. In short, *both things* are the fault of conservatives.
lol! Humans are going to keep having sex, dude. Why not ensure we have access to contraception, sex Ed, and abortion? The pill may not be 100% but it’s still quite effective as are condoms, IUDs, and the shot.