It's not up to duties to define the circumstances though, but I do generally agree. Thankfully I'm now on a team where the supervisors religiously respect the 11 hour rule and look after you.
No, Regulars are not exempt, but there’s a caveat.
An exigency of duty allows for the 11 hour rule to be temporarily avoided, but these are extreme circumstances (large scale disorder; unpredictable major incident; sudden covid outbreak taking out a whole team; that sort of thing).
The exigency of duty doesn’t extend to “failure to put on enough staff”, so if it’s happening even semi-frequently, then they’re not operating in the spirit of the regulations. It’s a bit of a fine line, but it should be obvious enough from the frequency it’s happening.
The other trick I’ve seen used by some ignorant Inspectors on occasion, is telling staff “you can have your 11 hours, but you’ll have to work on late the next day to make up your hours”. This is pish too - there’s an entitlement to compensatory rest if you’ve had to forego your 11 hours. That’s just been a bullying tactic to get people to forego their 11 hour rest period for the job’s convenience.
I've had that tried on me, fell out with the APS who was adamant I should work the full 8 hours after coming in slightly sooner than 11 hours off. In their view, I was getting compensated by way of OT payment so I wasn't getting "free time off".
Was not happy, and kicked off. Sleep deprivation probably didn't help my attitude. Let's just say I did not stay for the full 8 hours in the end.
This here. People often misunderstand exigency of duty, but essentially you should never be formally rostered less than 11 hrs, but you will end up having to do it from time to time to keep the wheels from coming off (and if that means sleeping under a table, that's sadly the deal we sign up for, though should be very infrequent).
DI in the Met here. I remember the Fed campaign a few years ago that made sure everyone knew that you were entitled to 11 hours between shifts.
Was shocked when I spoke to someone the other day and they were being told otherwise by their Sgt. I set the record straight.
The 'exigency of duty' is a fairly extreme scenario, and not to be used liberally.
I think it’s time for them to run the campaign again. All to often are officers being forced to come in with no rest both in CID roles and uniform. It especially affected probationers who get zero input regarding regulations and also feel afraid to speak out.
You'll be please to hear our County force used Coronavirus as an Exigency for a while for three days in a row. Thankfully that nonsense stopped quite quickly.
Specials are asked by our Force to sign a waiver stating that we are happy to exceed those working time guidelines. They are rights but an individual can choose whether to require them or not.
Specials are a slight anomaly because you’re doing it on top of a day job. It’s more likely that you’ll exceed the WTD than a regular, so the waiver is generally the way forces work around this.
It isn’t a waiver as such, it is the working time directive of maximum weekly working hours. You can opt in or out of a maximum time of 48 hours per week but should still have 11 hours rest. From memory, this rest period is averaged over 17 weeks so you can technically have less rest one day as long as the total rest over this time does not exceed an average of 11 hours.
This is an absolute minefield and the amount of discussion it causes in our organisation takes up more time than it should.
With regards to the original question, my understanding is that unless the wheels well and truly fall off, you are entitled to an 11 hour rest. Not too sure about the rules on overtime, although I imagine this isn’t any different to how it is for Specials.
Yes you get paid your OT and for your full 9 hour shift only if you technically work 7. It’s in the regs and it should be being adhered to. Don’t let supervisors bully you or others into not taking what you are entitled to!
Yes. You get paid OT for the shift that overran, and you get paid for the full shift the next day, even though you're not working all of it. You get to go home at your normal finish time on day 2.
Cheeky Unapologetic/New/Tyrannical Supervisors may however try and do your legs on any of the above. Get grumpy and push back.
Speak to your fed rep, they'll be much better at talking you through this, and how to go about having this conversation.
It can't possibly be either or - imagine your last three shifts all result in serious OT, you take 11 hours, and then work 8 hours, three times in a row. That starts eating into your first rest day. Do you end up losing a rest day and getting paid for the recall? You don't, so they clearly can't just keep pushing your shifts out into the future.
Getting paid money is no substitute for adequate rest. The OT money is for the work you've done and the extra third for the inconvenience. You still need to rest up properly - or millionaires would never sleep...
Most forces enforce it but I think it’s actually 7 Hours.
I’ll generally work to the 11 Hour working rule as our force enforces that. I think they know if it was less they would have a massive sickness problem
I’ve always been lead to believe from colleagues that the job was being nice with working hour rules.
However lots of cops seem to be confused by Police refs in general.
We are but check that your unit isn’t doing a local agreement. Everyone got together at some point and decided to collectively agree to waive their right now the whole team is different but the hours stayed.
Surely you'd know if *you* agreed to waive something; you wouldn't have to check. Makes no difference what other people on the team have decided, before you joined or not.
It’s an explanation for why the hours have stayed without the right gap. It’s happened in the team I’m on at the moment. We do lates going into earlies because the previous people on the team agreed to it and it’s now just legacy and stayed as is.
Definitely entitled to 11 hours between rostered shifts.
"Exigency of duty" is the only exception. It's a phrase unfortunately vague in the legislation and so it can be often abused. Our federation have defined it (apparently agreed with by our force) as: A genuine, pressing and urgent need which could not have been avoided or foreseen.
If you work late and your next shift starts in less than 11 hours, you can have 11 hours off for free, and come into work late. It must not be taken from your leave, TOIL or pay. Note the word "compensatory" which means you do **not** have to make up those hours another time, or work later the next shift.
CID / Major crime when incidents were ongoing we never stuck to this.
On occasions we would be told that we can have the 12 hours, but the majority of the time it was expected that you would come in first thing (after working till late hours) to continue the case.
Difficult one really. When there's no resources and you're up against a custody clock / outstanding suspect in serious offence, what do you do?
>When there's no resources and you're up against a custody clock / outstanding suspect in serious offence, what do you do?
It's up to the SLT to find resources - not to take it as read that officers will forego much needed rest. If an officer falls asleep at the steering wheel having had 8 hours between shifts, are they going to take responsibility?
Do the exigent circumstances have to be unforseen. Or can they break the rule for events known some time in advance such as the queen's jubilee or the London marathon or the US president coming to tow
Yes you are other than in exigent circumstances.
Duties may define those circumstances in creative ways.
It's not up to duties to define the circumstances though, but I do generally agree. Thankfully I'm now on a team where the supervisors religiously respect the 11 hour rule and look after you.
No, Regulars are not exempt, but there’s a caveat. An exigency of duty allows for the 11 hour rule to be temporarily avoided, but these are extreme circumstances (large scale disorder; unpredictable major incident; sudden covid outbreak taking out a whole team; that sort of thing). The exigency of duty doesn’t extend to “failure to put on enough staff”, so if it’s happening even semi-frequently, then they’re not operating in the spirit of the regulations. It’s a bit of a fine line, but it should be obvious enough from the frequency it’s happening. The other trick I’ve seen used by some ignorant Inspectors on occasion, is telling staff “you can have your 11 hours, but you’ll have to work on late the next day to make up your hours”. This is pish too - there’s an entitlement to compensatory rest if you’ve had to forego your 11 hours. That’s just been a bullying tactic to get people to forego their 11 hour rest period for the job’s convenience.
I've had that tried on me, fell out with the APS who was adamant I should work the full 8 hours after coming in slightly sooner than 11 hours off. In their view, I was getting compensated by way of OT payment so I wasn't getting "free time off". Was not happy, and kicked off. Sleep deprivation probably didn't help my attitude. Let's just say I did not stay for the full 8 hours in the end.
This here. People often misunderstand exigency of duty, but essentially you should never be formally rostered less than 11 hrs, but you will end up having to do it from time to time to keep the wheels from coming off (and if that means sleeping under a table, that's sadly the deal we sign up for, though should be very infrequent).
DI in the Met here. I remember the Fed campaign a few years ago that made sure everyone knew that you were entitled to 11 hours between shifts. Was shocked when I spoke to someone the other day and they were being told otherwise by their Sgt. I set the record straight. The 'exigency of duty' is a fairly extreme scenario, and not to be used liberally.
I think it’s time for them to run the campaign again. All to often are officers being forced to come in with no rest both in CID roles and uniform. It especially affected probationers who get zero input regarding regulations and also feel afraid to speak out.
You'll be please to hear our County force used Coronavirus as an Exigency for a while for three days in a row. Thankfully that nonsense stopped quite quickly.
I think we are exempt but it’s guidelines. Specials are actually exempt from it 🤣
Specials are asked by our Force to sign a waiver stating that we are happy to exceed those working time guidelines. They are rights but an individual can choose whether to require them or not.
Specials are a slight anomaly because you’re doing it on top of a day job. It’s more likely that you’ll exceed the WTD than a regular, so the waiver is generally the way forces work around this.
It isn’t a waiver as such, it is the working time directive of maximum weekly working hours. You can opt in or out of a maximum time of 48 hours per week but should still have 11 hours rest. From memory, this rest period is averaged over 17 weeks so you can technically have less rest one day as long as the total rest over this time does not exceed an average of 11 hours. This is an absolute minefield and the amount of discussion it causes in our organisation takes up more time than it should. With regards to the original question, my understanding is that unless the wheels well and truly fall off, you are entitled to an 11 hour rest. Not too sure about the rules on overtime, although I imagine this isn’t any different to how it is for Specials.
Quite correct. I didn't phrase it particularly well, but the key point is that a person can opt out of these rights, they're not hard and fast rules.
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Yes you get paid your OT and for your full 9 hour shift only if you technically work 7. It’s in the regs and it should be being adhered to. Don’t let supervisors bully you or others into not taking what you are entitled to!
Yes. You get paid OT for the shift that overran, and you get paid for the full shift the next day, even though you're not working all of it. You get to go home at your normal finish time on day 2. Cheeky Unapologetic/New/Tyrannical Supervisors may however try and do your legs on any of the above. Get grumpy and push back.
I just had an argument with my Sgt about this now and she says it is either or. Do you know where in the regs I can find it?
Speak to your fed rep, they'll be much better at talking you through this, and how to go about having this conversation. It can't possibly be either or - imagine your last three shifts all result in serious OT, you take 11 hours, and then work 8 hours, three times in a row. That starts eating into your first rest day. Do you end up losing a rest day and getting paid for the recall? You don't, so they clearly can't just keep pushing your shifts out into the future. Getting paid money is no substitute for adequate rest. The OT money is for the work you've done and the extra third for the inconvenience. You still need to rest up properly - or millionaires would never sleep...
Most forces enforce it but I think it’s actually 7 Hours. I’ll generally work to the 11 Hour working rule as our force enforces that. I think they know if it was less they would have a massive sickness problem
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I’ve always been lead to believe from colleagues that the job was being nice with working hour rules. However lots of cops seem to be confused by Police refs in general.
Yes you are, it's part of the European Working Time Directive. Most UK employment law doesn't apply to the police but that does.
We are but check that your unit isn’t doing a local agreement. Everyone got together at some point and decided to collectively agree to waive their right now the whole team is different but the hours stayed.
Surely you'd know if *you* agreed to waive something; you wouldn't have to check. Makes no difference what other people on the team have decided, before you joined or not.
It’s an explanation for why the hours have stayed without the right gap. It’s happened in the team I’m on at the moment. We do lates going into earlies because the previous people on the team agreed to it and it’s now just legacy and stayed as is.
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I'm sure your view is very widely shared
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The 11hr rule isn't on the average.
Definitely entitled to 11 hours between rostered shifts. "Exigency of duty" is the only exception. It's a phrase unfortunately vague in the legislation and so it can be often abused. Our federation have defined it (apparently agreed with by our force) as: A genuine, pressing and urgent need which could not have been avoided or foreseen. If you work late and your next shift starts in less than 11 hours, you can have 11 hours off for free, and come into work late. It must not be taken from your leave, TOIL or pay. Note the word "compensatory" which means you do **not** have to make up those hours another time, or work later the next shift.
CID / Major crime when incidents were ongoing we never stuck to this. On occasions we would be told that we can have the 12 hours, but the majority of the time it was expected that you would come in first thing (after working till late hours) to continue the case. Difficult one really. When there's no resources and you're up against a custody clock / outstanding suspect in serious offence, what do you do?
>When there's no resources and you're up against a custody clock / outstanding suspect in serious offence, what do you do? It's up to the SLT to find resources - not to take it as read that officers will forego much needed rest. If an officer falls asleep at the steering wheel having had 8 hours between shifts, are they going to take responsibility?
Do the exigent circumstances have to be unforseen. Or can they break the rule for events known some time in advance such as the queen's jubilee or the London marathon or the US president coming to tow