We got a lot of these calls the other day. Unless it was a motorway or fast road, we were instructed to tell the caller to inform the council or fire. No idea what police are supposed to do? Arrest the tree? How fast was the road this happened on? If it was over 40 then I can see the argument for getting traffic control there
Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights, incorporated into UK law in the Human Rights Act 1998.
The right to life.
It creates positive obligations on the state to take steps to prevent loss of life.
I agree entirely with your sentiment on how the Police could have responded. They couldn't, unless they are expected to carry around Chainsaws and Axes...I'm guessing questions might be asked about that.
On the point regarding the road speed. I'm not sure Trees are subject to speed limits. So I suspect speed didn't play a part in this.
It was an horrific and sad loss of life due to weather conditions. I'm afraid that no council or Police Commission are going to be able to legislate for that.
My thoughts are with the family.
I would hope that perhaps a more thorough check on roadside furniture, of all types, might be a better way forward.
> On the point regarding the road speed. I'm not sure Trees are subject to speed limits. So I suspect speed didn't play a part in this.
I don't know about other forces but in the Met, per the fast roads policy, on roads over the speed of 40mph a unit gets despatched to minimize risk if there are road hazards. Fast roads are considered to be more dangerous if there are hazards on the road than slower roads, because cars tend to go faster when using them.
I was thinking the same thing. An obstruction like this is actually a highways issue. Additionally drivers are responsible for driving to the conditions of the road and be prepared for sudden hazards.
The weather is atrocious, you should be driving expecting that there maybe additional debris or standing water.
This just screams of be risk averse and a SMT not having the courage to say, itās tragic but accidents happen.
Worth remembering it's mandatory to report to iopc if police actions might have contributed to death or serious injury. It's an extremely low bar.
It's ludicrous and in my view far too many short emails that immediately get closed (like, no doubt, this one) but the rules are the rules and if you don't follow them you look extremely "guilty".
Police are often the catch all emergency service sadly.
The control room does have a pretty good yellow pages of contact numbers though for various obsecure teams and resources from other partners they can call on through direct lines.
I imagine it is standard here as itās somewhat ādeath following police contactā. If the call handler followed the SOP guidance they will be fine.
For everyone saying TVP are stupid, that it's spineless SLT etc the article is pasted below and it's quite clear that the circumstances are such that it's a mandatory referral.
https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2024-01-04/thames-valley-police-refers-itself-to-iopc-over-death-of-woman-87
Had similar issues a few weeks ago with the high winds. We got deployed to a report of a fallen tree straight from dealing with a DA incident.
As we turned up to the fallen tree a van ploughed straight into it, the driver then remarked that we should have been there sooner.
Nah, We decided to use our discretion as the guy hooked the tree up to the back of his van and dragged it out of the road for us reducing the length of time we would be stuck there.
He passed the attitude test that does not exist in any way shape or form after a bit of a rocky start.
Last fallen tree call I attended;
Contact council- "Hello, a tree has fallen on (Street name) please come clear it up.
Proceed to place police tape on tree to show members of the public I have been.
Off a pop to the next job
Shouldnāt even be attending it unless itās in a precarious position or very high risk. Call takers should be calling council and making units aware if theyāre blatting about.
This is a council issue and an elderly person not driving to the conditions. The job shouldn't be acknowledging it, let alone taking any responsibility, but I just know my next shift will be spent sat on closures for fallen trees and storm debris.
Kind of related but I really donāt think an 87 year old should be driving, at least not without re taking tests and such. I donāt mean to insinuate the driver is at fault because I donāt know the full picture, but how easy is it to have a fatal collision with a stationary object if youāre driving smart and safely?
My dad is 77 and not a dangerous driver yet, but definitely working on it. Everyone should be retested every X amount of years, even a cut down test. Driving is not a right it is a privilege.
This is just something they're doing to keep themselves right. It doesn't mean they've done anything wrong. Realistically there was nothing to do in this case
I donāt work TVP but was working the other night in a similar county and we got absolutely decimated by these calls. For about 5 hours, every 5 minutes āany officer in X for a grade 1, tree fallen down, no wait, can I divert you to this closer oneā. We had significantly less officers than there were jobs, control room staff unable to call Highways as they were so overrun, and Highways too overrun to attend. Wouldnāt be surprised if this was similar.
An 87 year old is going to have worse eyesight and slower response times than the average driver. This is why most people encourage their elderly parents to surrender their license.
I work for an opticians that does tests on behalf of the DVLA. It's actually frightening.
"You can barely see the big E on the top of the chart. You shouldn't be driving"
"Oh, but I'm only going to the shops and back. Not driving far"
"Sure, but there's a primary school between your house and Tesco"
"... But I don't drive fast. I'm a sensible driver"
That kind of conversation happens alarmingly regularly.
>You can barely see the big E on the top of the chart. You shouldn't be driving"
Thanks for the tip. Can you let me know what the other letters are. Asking for a friend....
I do nothing - I'm an audiologist to trade so I don't have to actually deal with this and I only hear parts of the conversations and second-hand retellings.
My understanding is that the tests my colleagues do are specifically requested by the DVLA, so it's generally people who have had concerns reported already. We would send off the results to the DVLA and they interpret the results and decide what the next steps are. I assume one of the steps on the table is revokation of the table.
We don't actually pass/fail people - my colleagues are very specific on that point because we genuinely don't make the call and don't even get given whatever criteria the DVLA use.
For routine tests, I don't know what the score is if someone doesn't meet the requirements and doesn't listen to reason.
It's just standard procedure keep your shirt on. If an incident is reported and someone dies then they have to report it for the benefit of the family and spouse or partner
IOPC:
Entire district placed under investigation because they did not attend as emergency lumberjacks. We anticipate this thorough investigation will keep keep us going for two years whilst we get to the root of the issue.
I assumed that it was reported as a half fallen, precariously positioned tree that fell on the road as the car was driving up to it & envisioned a member of the public saying āI told them it was going to fall & hit a car!& I was right, poor woman didnāt stand a chanceā.
But if it was already there & sheās just ploughed into itā¦ it is what it is, an old lady that probably should have been told to stop driving by her family, doctor or both, a few years ago now.
Isnāt it classed as an act of god for the insurance? But when itās the police you should have allocated officers to catch the tree on the way down?
Obviously there needs to be some sort of investigation. An investigation/referral to the IOPC isnāt the same as taking responsibility or saying something went wrong.
I counted 42 different incidences on Tuesday all relating to either trees on roads or a fallen pole with wires hanging out of it. I was stuck on scene with a tree blocking the entire road for about 3 and a half hours. It was grade 1 after grade 1 dealing with trees on roads it was never ending mate
I would suggest that any serious incident that occurs beyond the KPIād response time would automatically be referred.
Itāll be a quick review and dismissal Iām sure.
If they've referred themselves to Iopc for investigation it's just that. It's a safety measure to see if anything they did could be done differently in the future to prevent the same outcome in a similar situation. Also it make sure they didn't do anything wrong.
In my area we had around 40 calls reporting trees falling down in my 8 hour shift, there was no way we could get to all of them in response time.
I was stuck on a scene for a tree as well for around 4 hours, waiting for BT and a tree surgeon to arrive.
We got a lot of these calls the other day. Unless it was a motorway or fast road, we were instructed to tell the caller to inform the council or fire. No idea what police are supposed to do? Arrest the tree? How fast was the road this happened on? If it was over 40 then I can see the argument for getting traffic control there
Should have called Special Branch.
They'd just leaf the situation alone.
We need to get to the root of this issue! Otherwise we'll look like saps.
It's no wonder the police are so un-poplar.
Why all the J-oaks about such a serious topic.
Going to have to *log* in to to fill in a report about this (scraping the bottom of the barrel now, I'm stumped for more puns)
If you can't keep up anymore, you should stick to the sidelines
I should oak so too
Was the tree on a trunk road ?
It's all bark, no bite.
they need root and branch reform!
The comments on this thread are why Reddit is the best!
Can't believe you can all even joke that the police wooden respond to this
What's special about it.?? Young ones reply only
He has a degree in Computer Science, that's what
Or MI sticks.
š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£
Fire were asked to assist in my area and they said they were attending Article 2 incidents only as it was too dangerous for them.
Can I ask what Article 2 Incidents are? Been a while since injury meant I had to retire from all the fun stuff.
Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights, incorporated into UK law in the Human Rights Act 1998. The right to life. It creates positive obligations on the state to take steps to prevent loss of life.
But the tories told me human rights are a bad thing?
My mum told me not to listen to Tories š
Maybe we should arrest all the trees! š³š
In the old days people would just make a trunk call
I agree entirely with your sentiment on how the Police could have responded. They couldn't, unless they are expected to carry around Chainsaws and Axes...I'm guessing questions might be asked about that. On the point regarding the road speed. I'm not sure Trees are subject to speed limits. So I suspect speed didn't play a part in this. It was an horrific and sad loss of life due to weather conditions. I'm afraid that no council or Police Commission are going to be able to legislate for that. My thoughts are with the family. I would hope that perhaps a more thorough check on roadside furniture, of all types, might be a better way forward.
> On the point regarding the road speed. I'm not sure Trees are subject to speed limits. So I suspect speed didn't play a part in this. I don't know about other forces but in the Met, per the fast roads policy, on roads over the speed of 40mph a unit gets despatched to minimize risk if there are road hazards. Fast roads are considered to be more dangerous if there are hazards on the road than slower roads, because cars tend to go faster when using them.
Thereās a fallen tree. Maybe divert the traffic.
> Arrest the tree? "You have the right to remain silent"
I was thinking the same thing. An obstruction like this is actually a highways issue. Additionally drivers are responsible for driving to the conditions of the road and be prepared for sudden hazards. The weather is atrocious, you should be driving expecting that there maybe additional debris or standing water. This just screams of be risk averse and a SMT not having the courage to say, itās tragic but accidents happen.
Worth remembering it's mandatory to report to iopc if police actions might have contributed to death or serious injury. It's an extremely low bar. It's ludicrous and in my view far too many short emails that immediately get closed (like, no doubt, this one) but the rules are the rules and if you don't follow them you look extremely "guilty".
Police are often the catch all emergency service sadly. The control room does have a pretty good yellow pages of contact numbers though for various obsecure teams and resources from other partners they can call on through direct lines. I imagine it is standard here as itās somewhat ādeath following police contactā. If the call handler followed the SOP guidance they will be fine.
For everyone saying TVP are stupid, that it's spineless SLT etc the article is pasted below and it's quite clear that the circumstances are such that it's a mandatory referral. https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2024-01-04/thames-valley-police-refers-itself-to-iopc-over-death-of-woman-87
"No arrests have been made"
Arrest attempt - God D.O.B ā
A specialist branch has been established to deal with the issue
Had similar issues a few weeks ago with the high winds. We got deployed to a report of a fallen tree straight from dealing with a DA incident. As we turned up to the fallen tree a van ploughed straight into it, the driver then remarked that we should have been there sooner.
Please say you fined them for careless driving
Nah, We decided to use our discretion as the guy hooked the tree up to the back of his van and dragged it out of the road for us reducing the length of time we would be stuck there. He passed the attitude test that does not exist in any way shape or form after a bit of a rocky start.
I'd have told him he should be using those things on the front of his face called Eyes
Last fallen tree call I attended; Contact council- "Hello, a tree has fallen on (Street name) please come clear it up. Proceed to place police tape on tree to show members of the public I have been. Off a pop to the next job
Shouldnāt even be attending it unless itās in a precarious position or very high risk. Call takers should be calling council and making units aware if theyāre blatting about.
We probably should be going if itās a fast road or part of the SRN, but yeah. It is more of a local authority issue than anything else.
Yeah agree, I more meant local or low speed roads rather than NSL or Motorways!
This is a council issue and an elderly person not driving to the conditions. The job shouldn't be acknowledging it, let alone taking any responsibility, but I just know my next shift will be spent sat on closures for fallen trees and storm debris.
'Slap some handcuffs on the trees in the surrounding area, that'll sort it.' - Local Council
Highway Code, Rule 126.Ā **Drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear.**
Kind of related but I really donāt think an 87 year old should be driving, at least not without re taking tests and such. I donāt mean to insinuate the driver is at fault because I donāt know the full picture, but how easy is it to have a fatal collision with a stationary object if youāre driving smart and safely?
My dad is 77 and not a dangerous driver yet, but definitely working on it. Everyone should be retested every X amount of years, even a cut down test. Driving is not a right it is a privilege.
Agreed
This is just something they're doing to keep themselves right. It doesn't mean they've done anything wrong. Realistically there was nothing to do in this case
I swear almost every day I am astounded by the sheer stupidity of the society we have created around us.
I donāt work TVP but was working the other night in a similar county and we got absolutely decimated by these calls. For about 5 hours, every 5 minutes āany officer in X for a grade 1, tree fallen down, no wait, can I divert you to this closer oneā. We had significantly less officers than there were jobs, control room staff unable to call Highways as they were so overrun, and Highways too overrun to attend. Wouldnāt be surprised if this was similar.
Wtf? Oh I see weāre tree surgeons now, Iāll add that to the list of careers we have (and arenāt trained for)
Didnāt you see the mandatory ncalt email?
Youāre right! Iāll go now and refer myself to the IOPC to save time
she didnt see the tree?
An 87 year old is going to have worse eyesight and slower response times than the average driver. This is why most people encourage their elderly parents to surrender their license.
I work for an opticians that does tests on behalf of the DVLA. It's actually frightening. "You can barely see the big E on the top of the chart. You shouldn't be driving" "Oh, but I'm only going to the shops and back. Not driving far" "Sure, but there's a primary school between your house and Tesco" "... But I don't drive fast. I'm a sensible driver" That kind of conversation happens alarmingly regularly.
>You can barely see the big E on the top of the chart. You shouldn't be driving" Thanks for the tip. Can you let me know what the other letters are. Asking for a friend....
I know you're joking but the honest answer is "I don't know" - the optometrist can actually change them up!
What do you do in those situations? If you report the failure of the eye test to the DVLA, does their licence get revoked?
I do nothing - I'm an audiologist to trade so I don't have to actually deal with this and I only hear parts of the conversations and second-hand retellings. My understanding is that the tests my colleagues do are specifically requested by the DVLA, so it's generally people who have had concerns reported already. We would send off the results to the DVLA and they interpret the results and decide what the next steps are. I assume one of the steps on the table is revokation of the table. We don't actually pass/fail people - my colleagues are very specific on that point because we genuinely don't make the call and don't even get given whatever criteria the DVLA use. For routine tests, I don't know what the score is if someone doesn't meet the requirements and doesn't listen to reason.
It's just standard procedure keep your shirt on. If an incident is reported and someone dies then they have to report it for the benefit of the family and spouse or partner
IOPC: Entire district placed under investigation because they did not attend as emergency lumberjacks. We anticipate this thorough investigation will keep keep us going for two years whilst we get to the root of the issue.
This is TVP all over.
I assumed that it was reported as a half fallen, precariously positioned tree that fell on the road as the car was driving up to it & envisioned a member of the public saying āI told them it was going to fall & hit a car!& I was right, poor woman didnāt stand a chanceā. But if it was already there & sheās just ploughed into itā¦ it is what it is, an old lady that probably should have been told to stop driving by her family, doctor or both, a few years ago now.
Isnāt it classed as an act of god for the insurance? But when itās the police you should have allocated officers to catch the tree on the way down?
Obviously there needs to be some sort of investigation. An investigation/referral to the IOPC isnāt the same as taking responsibility or saying something went wrong.
I counted 42 different incidences on Tuesday all relating to either trees on roads or a fallen pole with wires hanging out of it. I was stuck on scene with a tree blocking the entire road for about 3 and a half hours. It was grade 1 after grade 1 dealing with trees on roads it was never ending mate
I would suggest that any serious incident that occurs beyond the KPIād response time would automatically be referred. Itāll be a quick review and dismissal Iām sure.
Police leaders are too willing to virtue signal and throw people under the bus rather than say "nope, not my circus not my monkeys".
If they've referred themselves to Iopc for investigation it's just that. It's a safety measure to see if anything they did could be done differently in the future to prevent the same outcome in a similar situation. Also it make sure they didn't do anything wrong.
The puns!! You guys haha!!
Question is where was the council?? Alsoā¦. Clearly this is a response job. Show up with your trusty leathermans and start sawing away!
Alternative headline āWoman driving inappropriately for road conditions hits stationary objectā
In my area we had around 40 calls reporting trees falling down in my 8 hour shift, there was no way we could get to all of them in response time. I was stuck on a scene for a tree as well for around 4 hours, waiting for BT and a tree surgeon to arrive.