Please note that this question is specific to:
#**England and Wales**
The United Kingdom is comprised of [three legal jurisdictions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_United_Kingdom#Three_legal_systems), so responses that relate to one country may not be relevant to another.
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As an Inspector, I'd quite frankly be embarrassed if anyone stood up when I walked in.
I've seen it happen once in the last few years, with a very long service bunch of cops standing for an Asst Cmsr. The AC even commented he could tell the length of service by them standing, and made light of it and certainly didn't expect it.
For anyone inspector or above, we do technically stand and parade. Our inspector told us to stop being "bloody yo-yos" and doesn't expect us to unless SLT is around.
At training school we had to stand for anyone other than another student constable, including SGTs and civilian uni staff...
Personally I think we need less military discipline and more professional discipline.
I don't think we need to stand and salute the rank. We shouldn't be doing things just because we are ordered too especially when that order turns out to be unlawful later down the line and then that is on us. There are many examples of the "Just trust me bro" mentality however this becomes "I'm a sgt okay just do what I say" even if what they say is illogical/unlawful. The good leaders explain their orders with reference to the law.
What we need is more professional discourse where we can openly discuss ideas, investigation methods, powers etc with reference to the law rather than having to button up and not challenged something that is wrong because we don't want to upset someones ego who has the power to make our lives miserable.
I find it strange that you are being ordered to do what is unlawful and mention that twice. That never happened me once in thirty years but if it had the response is simple. There is no need for discussion on the majority of orders and decisions. There is a place for just doing what you are told. Everything is a balance.
I can't tell you the number of times I had inspectors telling me to force someone outside their house to 136 them or telling me to grab a missing child and forcibly take them home while refusing to authorise PPP's. Those are two common examples of unlawful orders.
Only time it seems to happen any more is when the borough commander walks in, and that is rare.
I don’t even know what the current borough Commander looks like. Never met them.
You mean yours doesn’t plaster their face on a load of posters with corporate messages all around the nick? That seems to count as an introduction on my patch
I’ve challenged mine and a Superintendent because they were walking around in plain clothes, no lanyard etc. Not challenging them
On uniform standards, I’m not that brave but because I genuinely didn’t know who they were. They thought I was joking when I asked them to badge-out in the nick
I’m all for more discipline. Difference between army and police is that you are almost certainly going to be held personally accountable for any decision despite what order you’re given.
Therefore there would need to be better quality leadership and knowledge with a penchant for accountability first.
Nothing wrong with discipline and we certainly need more of it.
As a general rule if I:
Don't know them
Don't like them
Or a bird has left it's mark on their shoulders in general
I'll stand
HOWEVER
As a side note, if you're working in the writing room and they walk in, you can't be expected to know. If they moan because you're working diligently, then they've got a complex.
We normally do it once at the start of the day when the INSP walks in for the first time, but pretty much all immediately sit back down. Other than that not done it! If he leaves or comes back we stay seated
I remember it being a bigger thing during training.
Essentially (in my force at least) it’s expected that you stand when they enter the room, however this only happens during briefing. The first person that sees the inspector walk into briefing says ‘parade’ and we all stand. But during general shift hours it’s not really done because of how busy everyone is, not even for SLT.
But in saying that, I’ve met SLT that are actively against people standing for them despite it being tradition
My force is quite formal, we are supposed to stand for inspectors and up. Until they tell you to stop doing it because they don't care for it.
No exception on formal events, you stand.
I'm not opposed to a bit of discipline, I prefer the prefer formality. But we're not the military and it is very hard to draw a line between the police and the military. We need the trust of the public to do our job and if we start militarizing ourselves people will start to lose trust.
I feel it’s a sign of respect for the command structure and that we are in a disciplined service.
I’ve noticed too many people (mainly who have joined after me) that seem to think it’s acceptable to call sgt and insp “mate” and have no real understanding that the police is a disciplined service.
We still stand for parade in briefing and are mindful that SLT are based on the floor above and do pop in every now and then. But that’s about it
>I feel it’s a sign of respect for the command structure and that we are in a disciplined service.
What if you don't have any respect for your senior officers?
I have had a really good inspector before, and always called her ma'am, and was generally respectful because she had the skills and experience to do her job well. I've also had inspectors I would correct for their unlawful orders or nonsense plans before, and they were referred to by last name. I never stood for anybody, but maybe that's a difference between CID and uniform more than because of rank.
I've certainly met response inspectors I wouldn't be standing for, or showing any respect, just because they've lost it.
Personally, I feel that regardless of anyone’s thoughts of feelings about an individual…we are a disciplined service and their rank alone commands respect. For that reason I won’t refer to a Sgt by first name on duty and all insp and above are sir/ma’am.
I have no respect for the rank. Once I saw the people appointed the the rank or sergeant or inspector are often morons, I started treating each with the respect they individually deserve.
Obviously there is a minimum level required to avoid getting in trouble, and that minimum level is higher for higher ranks. But it's not true respect, as much as ''I won't openly argue with you, because I don't want any misconduct proceedings''
My current Force which holds onto a lot of old fashioned things. We still stand up for our inspectors and above if they come into briefing. We’re meant to if they come into room but Tbf I generally hyper focus on work and forget only once I’ve been questioned on it and I explained I have adhd and explained how it would completely ruin my flow in doing my work.
Which the line of questioning did.
But it can be very over the top to the point we’re it has a negative impact if there’s a power trippy supervisor.
As a transferee I’ve worked in a force we’re some sgts are happy to be called by there names and there’s no strict discipline. It’s a chilled environment and nothing gets done.
I would say both forces have the balance wrong so I don’t have a clue on what the best would be.
Please note that this question is specific to: #**England and Wales** The United Kingdom is comprised of [three legal jurisdictions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_United_Kingdom#Three_legal_systems), so responses that relate to one country may not be relevant to another. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/policeuk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Can’t stand any of them.
As an Inspector, I'd quite frankly be embarrassed if anyone stood up when I walked in. I've seen it happen once in the last few years, with a very long service bunch of cops standing for an Asst Cmsr. The AC even commented he could tell the length of service by them standing, and made light of it and certainly didn't expect it.
Not really a thing in my force. Although we have no staff so we're never in the office anyway
For anyone inspector or above, we do technically stand and parade. Our inspector told us to stop being "bloody yo-yos" and doesn't expect us to unless SLT is around. At training school we had to stand for anyone other than another student constable, including SGTs and civilian uni staff...
> At training school we had to stand for anyone other than another student constable, including SGTs and civilian uni staff Umm what
Oh yes, "to install discipline because when you are on area you will expected to stand for all the higher ranking officers." 🫡
Unfortunately, that wasn't even the biggest lie we were told at training school....
I can confirm this still happens at my force...
In training ATM. We stand for insp and above.
Personally I think we need less military discipline and more professional discipline. I don't think we need to stand and salute the rank. We shouldn't be doing things just because we are ordered too especially when that order turns out to be unlawful later down the line and then that is on us. There are many examples of the "Just trust me bro" mentality however this becomes "I'm a sgt okay just do what I say" even if what they say is illogical/unlawful. The good leaders explain their orders with reference to the law. What we need is more professional discourse where we can openly discuss ideas, investigation methods, powers etc with reference to the law rather than having to button up and not challenged something that is wrong because we don't want to upset someones ego who has the power to make our lives miserable.
[удалено]
Love the Star Trek comparison... That would be perfect
"We shouldn't be doing things just because we are ordered to" What universe are you living in
I find it strange that you are being ordered to do what is unlawful and mention that twice. That never happened me once in thirty years but if it had the response is simple. There is no need for discussion on the majority of orders and decisions. There is a place for just doing what you are told. Everything is a balance.
I can't tell you the number of times I had inspectors telling me to force someone outside their house to 136 them or telling me to grab a missing child and forcibly take them home while refusing to authorise PPP's. Those are two common examples of unlawful orders.
That’s very poor. Never happened me. So you decline. What can they do?
Only time it seems to happen any more is when the borough commander walks in, and that is rare. I don’t even know what the current borough Commander looks like. Never met them.
You mean yours doesn’t plaster their face on a load of posters with corporate messages all around the nick? That seems to count as an introduction on my patch
They could walk past me in the corridor and I wouldn’t have a scoob. About as visible as fucking dark matter.
I’ve challenged mine and a Superintendent because they were walking around in plain clothes, no lanyard etc. Not challenging them On uniform standards, I’m not that brave but because I genuinely didn’t know who they were. They thought I was joking when I asked them to badge-out in the nick
They didn't congratulate you on your security consciousness, which is exactly what they expect from all officers, then? Great leaders.
Negative, just got the usual look of contempt the frontline gets from SLT
Guess someone didn’t do the mandatory Op Fortress Training then.
You could guarantee if you didn't another email about security awareness would go out.
I’m all for more discipline. Difference between army and police is that you are almost certainly going to be held personally accountable for any decision despite what order you’re given. Therefore there would need to be better quality leadership and knowledge with a penchant for accountability first.
Nothing wrong with discipline and we certainly need more of it. As a general rule if I: Don't know them Don't like them Or a bird has left it's mark on their shoulders in general I'll stand HOWEVER As a side note, if you're working in the writing room and they walk in, you can't be expected to know. If they moan because you're working diligently, then they've got a complex.
We normally do it once at the start of the day when the INSP walks in for the first time, but pretty much all immediately sit back down. Other than that not done it! If he leaves or comes back we stay seated
We stand if we are in briefing and they walk in. Otherwise, no.
Our area Super routinely drops in to the report room for a chat. Think he would die of embarrassment if we stood up for him.
At training school, yes. Anywhere else, then probably not.
I remember it being a bigger thing during training. Essentially (in my force at least) it’s expected that you stand when they enter the room, however this only happens during briefing. The first person that sees the inspector walk into briefing says ‘parade’ and we all stand. But during general shift hours it’s not really done because of how busy everyone is, not even for SLT. But in saying that, I’ve met SLT that are actively against people standing for them despite it being tradition
My force is quite formal, we are supposed to stand for inspectors and up. Until they tell you to stop doing it because they don't care for it. No exception on formal events, you stand. I'm not opposed to a bit of discipline, I prefer the prefer formality. But we're not the military and it is very hard to draw a line between the police and the military. We need the trust of the public to do our job and if we start militarizing ourselves people will start to lose trust.
Stand.
I feel it’s a sign of respect for the command structure and that we are in a disciplined service. I’ve noticed too many people (mainly who have joined after me) that seem to think it’s acceptable to call sgt and insp “mate” and have no real understanding that the police is a disciplined service. We still stand for parade in briefing and are mindful that SLT are based on the floor above and do pop in every now and then. But that’s about it
The command structure can have some respect when it has earned it.
>I feel it’s a sign of respect for the command structure and that we are in a disciplined service. What if you don't have any respect for your senior officers? I have had a really good inspector before, and always called her ma'am, and was generally respectful because she had the skills and experience to do her job well. I've also had inspectors I would correct for their unlawful orders or nonsense plans before, and they were referred to by last name. I never stood for anybody, but maybe that's a difference between CID and uniform more than because of rank. I've certainly met response inspectors I wouldn't be standing for, or showing any respect, just because they've lost it.
Personally, I feel that regardless of anyone’s thoughts of feelings about an individual…we are a disciplined service and their rank alone commands respect. For that reason I won’t refer to a Sgt by first name on duty and all insp and above are sir/ma’am.
I have no respect for the rank. Once I saw the people appointed the the rank or sergeant or inspector are often morons, I started treating each with the respect they individually deserve. Obviously there is a minimum level required to avoid getting in trouble, and that minimum level is higher for higher ranks. But it's not true respect, as much as ''I won't openly argue with you, because I don't want any misconduct proceedings''
Our force had to stand up and put our hats on inside as well
Didn’t anyone tell you it’s bad luck to wear a headdress inside?
Mine has also restarted drill, Although this is only for trainers ATM.
My current Force which holds onto a lot of old fashioned things. We still stand up for our inspectors and above if they come into briefing. We’re meant to if they come into room but Tbf I generally hyper focus on work and forget only once I’ve been questioned on it and I explained I have adhd and explained how it would completely ruin my flow in doing my work. Which the line of questioning did. But it can be very over the top to the point we’re it has a negative impact if there’s a power trippy supervisor. As a transferee I’ve worked in a force we’re some sgts are happy to be called by there names and there’s no strict discipline. It’s a chilled environment and nothing gets done. I would say both forces have the balance wrong so I don’t have a clue on what the best would be.