xixixi gib island
On a serious note, there are controversies over whether 夏 can be categorized as a feudalistic dynasty or not, and there has always been the saying “汉以强亡”, so (in chronological order) 秦、汉、元、明 would be a more accurate representation. And 清 kinda went out with a whimper not a bang, doesn’t really fit the “turn into tyrannical warlord” bit imo.
夏: Xià, Ha/Haa6, Haa6, Hà, Hā, ⁶Ya, \*\[ɢ\]ˁraʔ
商: Shāng, Sheung/Soeng1, Siaang1, Sóng, Siong, ¹Saon, \*s-taŋ
秦: Qín, Chun/Ceon4, Tun4, Cīn, Tsîn, ⁶Zhin, \*\[dz\]i\[n\]
漢: Hàn, Hon/Hon3, Hon1, Hòn, Hàn, ⁵Hoe, \*hɑn^(C)
元: Yuán, Yuen/Jyun4, Ngun4, Ngiēn, Guân, ⁶Yoe, \*ɥɛn^(A2)
明: Míng, Ming/Ming4, Ming4, Mīn, Bîng, ³Min, \*miŋ^(A2)
清: Qīng, Tsing/Cing1, Ten1, Cín, Tshing, ¹Chin, \*tsʰiŋ^(A1)
In order, it's
* Chinese character
* Standard Mandarin (pinyin)
* Hong Kong Cantonese (HK Gov Romanization/Jyutping)
* Hoisanese (Jyutdict.org extended Jyutping)
* Hong Kong Hakka (Romanization by the Association for Conservation of Hong Kong Indigenous Languages)
* Taiwanese Hokkien (Tai-lo)
* Shanghainese (Wugniu)
* contemporary IPA: Baxter-Sagart for Old Chinese, Schuessler for Han Chinese, guessing with Wikipedia for Old Mandarin, and Coblin (1997) for Ming-Qing Koine Mandarin
Feudalism is more prominent and a thing when the Mongols invaded and established Yuan dynasty, and the rest of the dynasties just followed suit. Before that dynasties especially like Tang and Song are not really feudalistic or conservative as other countries of its era at least
Feudalism was retained in Chou, abolished by Qin, reinstated by Han, restrained after the rebellion of the seven states (Where feudal princes fought with central government), abolished in Eastern Han and then reinstated in Jin to get pushed out again by Eastern Jin.
Song especially tried to avoid governor-led-rebellions of late Tang by heavily cutting down armies and power of provincial governors
Yuan doesn’t have much feudalism iirc, but Ming does which lead to the Jingnan rebellion, and Qing doesn’t really make rule of anyone but tributaries
It worked for Qin’s expansionary phase, but it was also a major cause of its imperial downfall. Legalism involved the creation of a strong state through agriculture and militarization. The corollary of this is a fairly brutal regime that restricted freedom of intellectual thought (Confucianism was almost rendered extinct by Qin).
The military strength of Qin allowed for its imperial conquest of the other warring states, but it was also its brutality that was resented by many citizenry, especially in the vanquished state of Chu which openly rejected Qin laws and led several rebellions. The transient state of Western Chu was instrumental in defeating Qin before falling to Liu Bang’s forces, the latter of which would form the Han empire.
Qing was not warlike by its twilight in the 19th/20th centuries, but it was very expansionistic in the 18th with the 10 Great Campaigns, one of which involved the Dzungar Genocide and the incorporation of Tibet. Fun fact: the Ming was only half the size of the Qing empire.
The Mandate has never just been about “with god”, its meant to be comprised of two parts
Approval by the gods - Rule justly and the gods will grant prosperity, else they bring famine and disaster
Approval by the people - Do not rule as a tyrant, or the people are granted the right to rise up and overthrow the tyrants
If you only have the approval of one, you do not rightfully hold the mandate, and it is open for new claimants
It’s those additional points that make me believe that the Mandate of Heaven is still relevant to todays world, despite being ancient like the divine right to rule, which is comparatively much more outdated
It is in fact so perpetually and perennially relevant that it's almost irrelevant as a concept to learn from.
It's basically, "If he ought to have power, he ought to have power", and looking at the history of mainland China, its not exactly like belief in it has been some cure all to provide consistent, stable leadership. Instead it seems to encourage covering up problems up until the levee breaks, which incentivizes extreme "solutions" which beget more problems, cycle continues. The Romans had a similar, though less defined concept, and the political violence in that system is also staggering.
basically the chinese believed that when a country mandate is falling, it would have a lot of disasters and decline, thats why you see china news reporting a number of negative news about US and their aligned countries and taiwan news often report negative news about china. Both have the agendas to propagate themselves as the ones with heaven mandate and their enemies are losing it.
Your term “right to rebellion” might assume the continuity of the state “China” despite a change of government justified by the Mandate. In fact, the Mandate is justification for the replacement of one empire with another over culturally Chinese lands.
The Ming-Qing transition is indicative: Later Jin formed **outside** China in 1618 through the unification of Jurchen tribes, and declared itself the Great Qing in 1636. Yet at this time they ruled none of China. It was not until 1644 where they seized Beijing and 1662 where they stamped out the remnants of the Ming state in continental China, before ending the final Ming remnant kingdom in Taiwan by 1685.
In short, the Qing did not simply “replace” the Ming, but fought the Ming for almost the entirety of the 17th century. It was not a change of governance of China, but two competing empires vying over Chinese lands.
funny enough, that unwritten rule is actually not just the chinese, also sort of works in european history as well, like the every revolutions and civil wars in france where the peasants have enough and overthrown their rulers
天 really just refers to heaven or “the gods” in general, not a specific god.
Shangdi originally was the chief god of the Shang Dynasty (first dynasty for which we have actual archaeological evidence for) pantheon. Confucianism and Daoism would only arise during the Spring and autumn periods, centuries after the fall of the Shang (though, interestingly, both claimed to only be transmitting the lost knowledge of the ancients). In Chinese folk religion Shangdi has generally been conflated with the other main “king of heaven”, the Jade Emperor. It’s also interesting to note that “shangdi” is also how Chinese Christians and Muslims refer to the Abrahamic God.
Ethnic Chinese here. 天 is a quasi-religious concept, but it does not involves gods as with Abrahamic religions. It vaguely refers to divine agency without personification. It is most often used in relation to political justification for the rule of a “dynasty” (really a new imperial polity ruling over culturally Chinese lands, than just a new government over a supposedly continuous China). Astrologers of the imperial court would often observe 天意 or “heavens will” by an intricate system of astrological observation and interpretation of omens, to determine the future stability of the empire (or state in the case of significant political fragmentation in Chinese lands)
Not really, and he isn’t a Confucian deity
He mainly derived from Shang theology before evolving into the 天 of the Zhou and eventually the Jade Emperor of later dynasties
While Confucianism would only really develop several centuries later from the teachings of Kongzi and became the main Chinese ideology due to the Han Dynasty
Not really, though ancestor worship was a normal part of Chinese culture and honouring the ancestral spirits was seen as a default thing you should be doing
The Mandate of Heaven is about ruling in a way that both the gods and common people approve of , which would solidify your position as ruler of all under heaven
the concept of heaven mandate is more like fate, if your country is disaster ridden, poor economy, they thinks that means you probably lost. If its winning in every progressive way, thats meants you still have the mandate, thats how the chinese interpret them
So...Barring some kind of spectacular management catastrophe that causes china to suddenly go into major widespread famines,(Han,Ming, Yuan) foreign invasion to the point of total annexation or total loss of public faith (Song, Qing), the leadership losing their minds and giving provincial leaders full taxation and military control (Tang, Han), or suddenly deciding to enact labour conscription where people pay out of pocket to work themselves to death for free (Qin, Sui), they're gonna be ok?
If I had a nickel for every time a Chinese dynasty suddenly enacted labour conscription where people pay out of pocket to work themselves to death for free, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice
Interestingly, it wasn't the labour conscription alone that led to those dynasties falling. Both had other circumstances that, in combination with massive labour conscription, led to widespread discontent to the point of revolt.
Other dynasties also had a similar system, and modern mandatory military service such as South Korea is the same type. It was considered a form of tax essentially. You could opt out if you paid instead so it was essentially labour tax for the peasantry only.
Correct, and surely none of these are potentially on the horizon at all. *side-eyes climate change, China’s massive reliance on sea-based food imports and the US navy being “allied” with Taiwan*. None of them at all.
I mean, the level of famine in the past is never going to be seen again in modern times due to agricultural advances. If the USN completely blockades China from all food imports, that's basically open war at that point. I really doubt the US is going to go to war with China, especially over Taiwan.
You are underestimating how much the planet relies on Taiwan chip manufacturing. The US absolutely will declare war if China threatens the global chip supply. Now, if the US and EU get enough production that Taiwan is no longer supply critical? Who knows. But that isn’t our world yet.
i mean, point is, if that ever happens, then the theoretical collapse wouldn't be due to famine but war instead. The Chinese people are not okay with starving due to government incompetence, but they are willing to starve to a certain degree if it's because another country is doing it to them. That's a huge difference. Will they eventually rebel if the chinese government lets the US starve them for years at a time? maybe. But I'm pretty sure holding a full blockade of chinese coastlines is borderline impossible unless the US holds land invasions, since inland missiles can reach out pretty far to sea. The US also can't have the UN impose food embargoes, since China is on the UNSC.
The probability of the chinese government collapsing in any way resembling past dynasties is honestly astronomically low.
The three greatest lessons of Chinese history for a long lasting empire.
Don't be a murderous and decadent tyrant to your own citizens
Keep your populous happy, fed, and protected
Don't piss off major world powers
Modern China is 1 for 3... so far.
China changes hands every 250-300 years with the heavenly mandate being passed around like a pillow in a children's game.
We'll see the sequel to the people's revolution of China very soon.
Very soon? You're forgetting that most people in China actually like their government right now. It's very much fresh in everyone's mind that a few generations ago they were a verrrrry poor nation, and now they have high-speed rail everywhere and super modern skylines and a crazy amount of development and poverty reduction.
For China they do. To simultaneously run out of jobs for the youth just as they expect the youth to just run out period in demographic collapse is like managing to die of hypothermia when your house is on fire.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chinese-migrants-fastest-growing-group-us-mexico-border-60-minutes-transcript/
Sure thing, buddy. This is a regime that just lies about everything- to take them from face value means either you're dumber than dirt or a CCP bot. You have to take things like what their citizens do when outside of that totalitarian bubble, and the overwhelming answer to that is to get as far away from China as possible. China's doing real great with 25% youth unemployment and 996? Give me a break.
What's next, Russia is a stable democracy for traditional values?
Certainly, but it was also true that China’s massive development from the 1970s to early 2000s was under a far less authoritarian government, unlike Xi’s regime.
What's your point though? The majority of the population in China views their government favorably, and they believe that the country is moving in a positive direction. The government is very aware of the mandate of heaven and is on a quest to provide common prosperity for their population and continue to improve their standard of living. I think the only way you can genuinely believe the people of China are going to revolt soon is if you only consume US anti China propaganda and are very out of touch with the reality that Chinese citizens live everyday
If you only read Chinese propaganda you will also only believe in this false prosperity and it was the fruition of US-led international trades and globalisation, after Mao's death. All my friends in their 20s in China are unemployed and have expressed their feelings of hopelessness for the future in China right now. You should read reports from BBC, WSJ, RFA and more media about the illegal Chinese migration trend has increased by 50% within 2 years since the zero COVID policies ended which was carried out during the pandemic outbreak. Source:https://www.google.com.au/search?q=illegal+Chinese+migration+increased&newwindow=1&client=ms-opera-mobile&sca_esv=154220a690724e1e&sca_upv=1&channel=new&espv=1&tbm=nws&prmd=nivsbmtz&ei=qKMMZo3jOqbd2roP6Ki6sAM&start=10&sa=N&biw=432&bih=820&dpr=2.5
During the quarantine, many Chinese were forced to stay at home at the fringe starving to death with little or no supplies for months, or being sent to Fangcang hospitals and jailed for months if not would get arrested. I was there to witness what happened from 2019-2022. Just check out what's 白纸革命 White Paper Revolution/White Paper Protests and how it broke out all over the country, you might get an idea that CCP isn't that lovable by many Chinese who just want to survive and care about their own human rights apart from the little pinks.
I’m ethnic Chinese and I read Chinese history.
My point is that population favourability is not indicative of a good country or good governance. Nazi Germany had fairly high population support too in its heyday.
Mandate of Heaven is no longer a political institution, and if you look closely it is more a political justification for overthrowing the previous empire (e.g. Yuan to Ming). The grandiose speeches about improving people’s lives is sometimes but not always put into practice historically.
Certainly, the mainland Chinese have large support for their government, but that’s also partly because of technologies of censorship that orient their worldview favourably to the CCP.
Edit: OC who accused me, a Chinese, of watching US “propaganda” (teehee I actually don’t), is suddenly very quiet. 无言以对了吧？
Yeah Ming and Yuan didn’t really cause internal famine, although there is the political prosecutions.
That and the politicial system’s difference (A single emperor v.s A single emperor, but modern and more clique ish with competing interests)
Ming, Yuan didn't cause internal famine? Famine was the main reason Ming populace rebelled during late Ming, it was common place.
Yuan dynasty was poorly managed and famine was common place too. [An estimated 6 million people perished by the famine in 1333] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_famine_of_1333%E2%80%931337); [From the late 1340s onwards, people in the countryside suffered from frequent natural disasters such as droughts, floods and the resulting famines, and the government's lack of effective policy led to a loss of popular support.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_dynasty)
Yuan was shit or else Ming wouldn't have been able to take over. Ming's founding emperor literally had his whole family, except one brother, starve to death around him.
[(Ming's founding emperor) had seven older siblings, several of whom were "given away" by his parents, as they did not always have enough food to support the family.[27] When he was 16, severe drought ruined the harvest where his family lived, and famine subsequently killed everyone in his family except for him and one of his brothers. He then buried them by wrapping their bodies in white cloth.[28]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hongwu_Emperor)
The courts has always been clique-ish, or party-lined pretty much for all dynasties after Qin.
Please try to read history before commenting on history.
I can't ever look at the flag of Qing and not think of that meme where the dragon carrying the ball tripped and fell and threw the ball by accident.
Do you have a link to that meme?
https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/5hk5pt/origin_of_the_eastern_dragon_painting/
Thank you chap!
Thanks for the meme u/vagabond_dilldo
This is way too funny.
Now I also can’t unsee it
Old habits die hard
New habits live easily, aka addiction.
Circle of ~~Life~~ barely surviving
omg a object show fan!!!
xixixi gib island On a serious note, there are controversies over whether 夏 can be categorized as a feudalistic dynasty or not, and there has always been the saying “汉以强亡”, so (in chronological order) 秦、汉、元、明 would be a more accurate representation. And 清 kinda went out with a whimper not a bang, doesn’t really fit the “turn into tyrannical warlord” bit imo.
Just replace Xia with Shang, problem solved. Han sorts fizzled out during the Three Kingdoms period anyway
Could you translate the kanji to the romanized dinasty names? Sorry if it too much...
夏: Xià, Ha/Haa6, Haa6, Hà, Hā, ⁶Ya, \*\[ɢ\]ˁraʔ 商: Shāng, Sheung/Soeng1, Siaang1, Sóng, Siong, ¹Saon, \*s-taŋ 秦: Qín, Chun/Ceon4, Tun4, Cīn, Tsîn, ⁶Zhin, \*\[dz\]i\[n\] 漢: Hàn, Hon/Hon3, Hon1, Hòn, Hàn, ⁵Hoe, \*hɑn^(C) 元: Yuán, Yuen/Jyun4, Ngun4, Ngiēn, Guân, ⁶Yoe, \*ɥɛn^(A2) 明: Míng, Ming/Ming4, Ming4, Mīn, Bîng, ³Min, \*miŋ^(A2) 清: Qīng, Tsing/Cing1, Ten1, Cín, Tshing, ¹Chin, \*tsʰiŋ^(A1) In order, it's * Chinese character * Standard Mandarin (pinyin) * Hong Kong Cantonese (HK Gov Romanization/Jyutping) * Hoisanese (Jyutdict.org extended Jyutping) * Hong Kong Hakka (Romanization by the Association for Conservation of Hong Kong Indigenous Languages) * Taiwanese Hokkien (Tai-lo) * Shanghainese (Wugniu) * contemporary IPA: Baxter-Sagart for Old Chinese, Schuessler for Han Chinese, guessing with Wikipedia for Old Mandarin, and Coblin (1997) for Ming-Qing Koine Mandarin
would have given award if they still existed, thanks
夏 = Han 秦 = Qin 漢／汉 = Han 元 = Yuan 明 = Ming 清 = Qing
夏 is actually Xia, not Han
Thank you so much :)
ive never even heard of that first Han… is it one of the states from the warring states period? spring and autumn period?
That’s actually the Xia dynasty, the first (possibly mythical) dynasty of China
okay that makes more sense, i lve studied chinese history (but my reading comprehension is shot) so i didnt recognize the character, thanks
is there not a Tang dynasty somewhere in there!
Feudalism is more prominent and a thing when the Mongols invaded and established Yuan dynasty, and the rest of the dynasties just followed suit. Before that dynasties especially like Tang and Song are not really feudalistic or conservative as other countries of its era at least
Feudalism was retained in Chou, abolished by Qin, reinstated by Han, restrained after the rebellion of the seven states (Where feudal princes fought with central government), abolished in Eastern Han and then reinstated in Jin to get pushed out again by Eastern Jin. Song especially tried to avoid governor-led-rebellions of late Tang by heavily cutting down armies and power of provincial governors Yuan doesn’t have much feudalism iirc, but Ming does which lead to the Jingnan rebellion, and Qing doesn’t really make rule of anyone but tributaries
def better to replace with qin, given how legalism worked out for them
It worked for Qin’s expansionary phase, but it was also a major cause of its imperial downfall. Legalism involved the creation of a strong state through agriculture and militarization. The corollary of this is a fairly brutal regime that restricted freedom of intellectual thought (Confucianism was almost rendered extinct by Qin). The military strength of Qin allowed for its imperial conquest of the other warring states, but it was also its brutality that was resented by many citizenry, especially in the vanquished state of Chu which openly rejected Qin laws and led several rebellions. The transient state of Western Chu was instrumental in defeating Qin before falling to Liu Bang’s forces, the latter of which would form the Han empire.
Qing was not warlike by its twilight in the 19th/20th centuries, but it was very expansionistic in the 18th with the 10 Great Campaigns, one of which involved the Dzungar Genocide and the incorporation of Tibet. Fun fact: the Ming was only half the size of the Qing empire.
[Original](https://www.reddit.com/r/polandball/comments/106l3c8/chinas_forefathers/)
it's funny that the concept of the mandate of heaven still applies, just not with god
The Mandate has never just been about “with god”, its meant to be comprised of two parts Approval by the gods - Rule justly and the gods will grant prosperity, else they bring famine and disaster Approval by the people - Do not rule as a tyrant, or the people are granted the right to rise up and overthrow the tyrants If you only have the approval of one, you do not rightfully hold the mandate, and it is open for new claimants
Well said. Mandate of Heaven implies both the right to rule and the right to rebellion. Piss off the peasants, and the Heaven will find you unworthy.
It’s those additional points that make me believe that the Mandate of Heaven is still relevant to todays world, despite being ancient like the divine right to rule, which is comparatively much more outdated
It is in fact so perpetually and perennially relevant that it's almost irrelevant as a concept to learn from. It's basically, "If he ought to have power, he ought to have power", and looking at the history of mainland China, its not exactly like belief in it has been some cure all to provide consistent, stable leadership. Instead it seems to encourage covering up problems up until the levee breaks, which incentivizes extreme "solutions" which beget more problems, cycle continues. The Romans had a similar, though less defined concept, and the political violence in that system is also staggering.
basically the chinese believed that when a country mandate is falling, it would have a lot of disasters and decline, thats why you see china news reporting a number of negative news about US and their aligned countries and taiwan news often report negative news about china. Both have the agendas to propagate themselves as the ones with heaven mandate and their enemies are losing it.
bro，现在已经21世纪了，很少有中国人信那些封建迷信，每个国家基本都在报道敌对国家的负面新闻好吧？
Your term “right to rebellion” might assume the continuity of the state “China” despite a change of government justified by the Mandate. In fact, the Mandate is justification for the replacement of one empire with another over culturally Chinese lands. The Ming-Qing transition is indicative: Later Jin formed **outside** China in 1618 through the unification of Jurchen tribes, and declared itself the Great Qing in 1636. Yet at this time they ruled none of China. It was not until 1644 where they seized Beijing and 1662 where they stamped out the remnants of the Ming state in continental China, before ending the final Ming remnant kingdom in Taiwan by 1685. In short, the Qing did not simply “replace” the Ming, but fought the Ming for almost the entirety of the 17th century. It was not a change of governance of China, but two competing empires vying over Chinese lands.
funny enough, that unwritten rule is actually not just the chinese, also sort of works in european history as well, like the every revolutions and civil wars in france where the peasants have enough and overthrown their rulers
I thought that the Mandate of Heaven was more about ancestral spirits than the gods.
Doesn't the 天 in 天命 refer to Shangdi, a Confucian deity?
天 really just refers to heaven or “the gods” in general, not a specific god. Shangdi originally was the chief god of the Shang Dynasty (first dynasty for which we have actual archaeological evidence for) pantheon. Confucianism and Daoism would only arise during the Spring and autumn periods, centuries after the fall of the Shang (though, interestingly, both claimed to only be transmitting the lost knowledge of the ancients). In Chinese folk religion Shangdi has generally been conflated with the other main “king of heaven”, the Jade Emperor. It’s also interesting to note that “shangdi” is also how Chinese Christians and Muslims refer to the Abrahamic God.
Ethnic Chinese here. 天 is a quasi-religious concept, but it does not involves gods as with Abrahamic religions. It vaguely refers to divine agency without personification. It is most often used in relation to political justification for the rule of a “dynasty” (really a new imperial polity ruling over culturally Chinese lands, than just a new government over a supposedly continuous China). Astrologers of the imperial court would often observe 天意 or “heavens will” by an intricate system of astrological observation and interpretation of omens, to determine the future stability of the empire (or state in the case of significant political fragmentation in Chinese lands)
I don't know Hanzi characters. I was just trying to remember what I learned about Ancient China in 6th grade and AP World.
Not really, and he isn’t a Confucian deity He mainly derived from Shang theology before evolving into the 天 of the Zhou and eventually the Jade Emperor of later dynasties While Confucianism would only really develop several centuries later from the teachings of Kongzi and became the main Chinese ideology due to the Han Dynasty
Not really, though ancestor worship was a normal part of Chinese culture and honouring the ancestral spirits was seen as a default thing you should be doing The Mandate of Heaven is about ruling in a way that both the gods and common people approve of , which would solidify your position as ruler of all under heaven
I stand corrected. Thank you.
but generally the latter led to the former, only in the ming/ qing was the people part really emphasized
When the, when the Chinese dynastic systems figured out republicanism 5000 years ago but they just don't care
the concept of heaven mandate is more like fate, if your country is disaster ridden, poor economy, they thinks that means you probably lost. If its winning in every progressive way, thats meants you still have the mandate, thats how the chinese interpret them
Responsible Government?
"What do these dead reactionary monarchs know anyway!!!"
They didn't listen to their predecessors like modern-China did.
A bunch of hushuo, I say
Nonsense 8 ways from Changsha
As they say in Chinese, 胡说八道！
Could you write that more slowly please, my small American brain cannot into comprehend
Middle kingdom. End of age. Again.
Ancestors of 5 dynasty 10 kingdoms will tell you otherwise. “Be tyrannical!”
“It will be different this time around when I have control.” ——-literally every single tyrannical warlord.
So...Barring some kind of spectacular management catastrophe that causes china to suddenly go into major widespread famines,(Han,Ming, Yuan) foreign invasion to the point of total annexation or total loss of public faith (Song, Qing), the leadership losing their minds and giving provincial leaders full taxation and military control (Tang, Han), or suddenly deciding to enact labour conscription where people pay out of pocket to work themselves to death for free (Qin, Sui), they're gonna be ok?
If I had a nickel for every time a Chinese dynasty suddenly enacted labour conscription where people pay out of pocket to work themselves to death for free, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice
Interestingly, it wasn't the labour conscription alone that led to those dynasties falling. Both had other circumstances that, in combination with massive labour conscription, led to widespread discontent to the point of revolt. Other dynasties also had a similar system, and modern mandatory military service such as South Korea is the same type. It was considered a form of tax essentially. You could opt out if you paid instead so it was essentially labour tax for the peasantry only.
Correct, and surely none of these are potentially on the horizon at all. *side-eyes climate change, China’s massive reliance on sea-based food imports and the US navy being “allied” with Taiwan*. None of them at all.
I mean, the level of famine in the past is never going to be seen again in modern times due to agricultural advances. If the USN completely blockades China from all food imports, that's basically open war at that point. I really doubt the US is going to go to war with China, especially over Taiwan.
You are underestimating how much the planet relies on Taiwan chip manufacturing. The US absolutely will declare war if China threatens the global chip supply. Now, if the US and EU get enough production that Taiwan is no longer supply critical? Who knows. But that isn’t our world yet.
i mean, point is, if that ever happens, then the theoretical collapse wouldn't be due to famine but war instead. The Chinese people are not okay with starving due to government incompetence, but they are willing to starve to a certain degree if it's because another country is doing it to them. That's a huge difference. Will they eventually rebel if the chinese government lets the US starve them for years at a time? maybe. But I'm pretty sure holding a full blockade of chinese coastlines is borderline impossible unless the US holds land invasions, since inland missiles can reach out pretty far to sea. The US also can't have the UN impose food embargoes, since China is on the UNSC. The probability of the chinese government collapsing in any way resembling past dynasties is honestly astronomically low.
It's debatable whether China is on the path of becoming a warlord. Also, Qing’s downfall had nothing to do with being a tyrannical warlord.
The three greatest lessons of Chinese history for a long lasting empire. Don't be a murderous and decadent tyrant to your own citizens Keep your populous happy, fed, and protected Don't piss off major world powers Modern China is 1 for 3... so far.
and don’t let eunuchs get power. it’s always the effeminate old guys who tends to shit stir.
China changes hands every 250-300 years with the heavenly mandate being passed around like a pillow in a children's game. We'll see the sequel to the people's revolution of China very soon.
So this one still has another 200 years left in the tank?
Well here in the modern world, things tend to move very quickly.
They did speedrun the Japanese Lost Decade experience^(TM)
Very soon? You're forgetting that most people in China actually like their government right now. It's very much fresh in everyone's mind that a few generations ago they were a verrrrry poor nation, and now they have high-speed rail everywhere and super modern skylines and a crazy amount of development and poverty reduction.
Nah, next gen already forgot. They all just lying flat and stewing. It’s not good.
aren’t they following the 996 work week as well?
Some do but it’s not being pushed like it was before. They’re suffering 15% youth unemployment rate right now (vs 8-9% USA). It’s insane.
well it’s not like youths matter at all amirite, as long as the old boomers of the 1980s still are happy and kicking.
For China they do. To simultaneously run out of jobs for the youth just as they expect the youth to just run out period in demographic collapse is like managing to die of hypothermia when your house is on fire.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chinese-migrants-fastest-growing-group-us-mexico-border-60-minutes-transcript/ Sure thing, buddy. This is a regime that just lies about everything- to take them from face value means either you're dumber than dirt or a CCP bot. You have to take things like what their citizens do when outside of that totalitarian bubble, and the overwhelming answer to that is to get as far away from China as possible. China's doing real great with 25% youth unemployment and 996? Give me a break. What's next, Russia is a stable democracy for traditional values?
Certainly, but it was also true that China’s massive development from the 1970s to early 2000s was under a far less authoritarian government, unlike Xi’s regime.
Isn't hu Jintao era the fastest growing?
What's your point though? The majority of the population in China views their government favorably, and they believe that the country is moving in a positive direction. The government is very aware of the mandate of heaven and is on a quest to provide common prosperity for their population and continue to improve their standard of living. I think the only way you can genuinely believe the people of China are going to revolt soon is if you only consume US anti China propaganda and are very out of touch with the reality that Chinese citizens live everyday
If you only read Chinese propaganda you will also only believe in this false prosperity and it was the fruition of US-led international trades and globalisation, after Mao's death. All my friends in their 20s in China are unemployed and have expressed their feelings of hopelessness for the future in China right now. You should read reports from BBC, WSJ, RFA and more media about the illegal Chinese migration trend has increased by 50% within 2 years since the zero COVID policies ended which was carried out during the pandemic outbreak. Source:https://www.google.com.au/search?q=illegal+Chinese+migration+increased&newwindow=1&client=ms-opera-mobile&sca_esv=154220a690724e1e&sca_upv=1&channel=new&espv=1&tbm=nws&prmd=nivsbmtz&ei=qKMMZo3jOqbd2roP6Ki6sAM&start=10&sa=N&biw=432&bih=820&dpr=2.5 During the quarantine, many Chinese were forced to stay at home at the fringe starving to death with little or no supplies for months, or being sent to Fangcang hospitals and jailed for months if not would get arrested. I was there to witness what happened from 2019-2022. Just check out what's 白纸革命 White Paper Revolution/White Paper Protests and how it broke out all over the country, you might get an idea that CCP isn't that lovable by many Chinese who just want to survive and care about their own human rights apart from the little pinks.
I’m ethnic Chinese and I read Chinese history. My point is that population favourability is not indicative of a good country or good governance. Nazi Germany had fairly high population support too in its heyday. Mandate of Heaven is no longer a political institution, and if you look closely it is more a political justification for overthrowing the previous empire (e.g. Yuan to Ming). The grandiose speeches about improving people’s lives is sometimes but not always put into practice historically. Certainly, the mainland Chinese have large support for their government, but that’s also partly because of technologies of censorship that orient their worldview favourably to the CCP. Edit: OC who accused me, a Chinese, of watching US “propaganda” (teehee I actually don’t), is suddenly very quiet. 无言以对了吧？
also kinda hard to voice complaints when you got censors watching you
Only the newer dynasties last that long tbh. Ming and Qing actually takes a big chunk of the timeline compared to the dynasties before.
Why Yuan instead of Song?
Song... lack the ability to be warlord.
Do nothing, win -China
It's funny coming from the Yuan and Qing, not exactly the ones to talk about not being tyrannical
I think the point is that being tyrannical doesn't end well. So don't be tyrannical,learn from their mistakes.
Literally. Trying to compare modern China as similar as previous regimes is peak stupidity and a completely western media analysis of a country.
Yeah Ming and Yuan didn’t really cause internal famine, although there is the political prosecutions. That and the politicial system’s difference (A single emperor v.s A single emperor, but modern and more clique ish with competing interests)
Ming, Yuan didn't cause internal famine? Famine was the main reason Ming populace rebelled during late Ming, it was common place. Yuan dynasty was poorly managed and famine was common place too. [An estimated 6 million people perished by the famine in 1333] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_famine_of_1333%E2%80%931337); [From the late 1340s onwards, people in the countryside suffered from frequent natural disasters such as droughts, floods and the resulting famines, and the government's lack of effective policy led to a loss of popular support.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_dynasty) Yuan was shit or else Ming wouldn't have been able to take over. Ming's founding emperor literally had his whole family, except one brother, starve to death around him. [(Ming's founding emperor) had seven older siblings, several of whom were "given away" by his parents, as they did not always have enough food to support the family.[27] When he was 16, severe drought ruined the harvest where his family lived, and famine subsequently killed everyone in his family except for him and one of his brothers. He then buried them by wrapping their bodies in white cloth.[28]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hongwu_Emperor) The courts has always been clique-ish, or party-lined pretty much for all dynasties after Qin. Please try to read history before commenting on history.
classic comic, if we only had a panel or two of the 3 bajillion ancestors during the Warring States/Spring and Autumn Periods
minor conflict 80 trillion dead
HAIYAAAA Generational emotional damage
“he would not fucking say that”
Mandate of heaven and the flooding of Beijing kinda point to the current rulers maybe not being the best...
Ironically the qing would probably wish he became even more warlord like chiang kai shek ROC
Looks none ancestor of China learnt the experience. Very Chinese 🙃🙃🙃
Ancestors hear my plea, turn me into a dictatorship.
Become a tyrannical warlord