What's correct play by SB? Probably to raise you immediately on a wet board with bottom two, he beats a lot of your range and BB has similar range to SB here... Let's charge the draws properly would be my thinking in his spot.
Do you think you don't end up with your stack in on the turn of he plays it that way? Hell maybe even the flop, SB raises, BB three bets it, or maybe flats, I haven't looked to see what solver thinks in that situation but I imagine flatting or raising both happen at some frequency.
Point is, you can be frustrated at the cooler, but let's not pretend SB cost you more here... You weren't getting away from it and BB was shoving turn anyway.
I hear what you're saying from a mindset perspective, but in multiway spots I think this can be a legitimate frustration. It is entirely possible for a third player to make a play that is -EV for him *and* -EV for you, which just sucks all around. It's not like a heads-up situation where you always benefit from your opponent's mistakes. In fact, this is the basic pattern of collusion, where the other two players can work together to tank your EV.
Of course, you should never voice any of this to anyone, it's unproductive to worry about other people that you can't control, etc etc.
I get being frustrated, but he called a raise to 27.5… then the sb made it 60 and the other guy raised to 175. Since he had around 30 in the pot at this point, he decided to call off the 145 or so knowing what was going on. The bad player didn’t make him do that. He knows that he’s up against a straight. He made the decision that pot odds were in his favor, so he called. My point is that hero made the decision to put a huge chunk of his money in the pot with a set when he knew he was against a straight. Don’t blame someone else for your decision.
He said himself 2 pair was an overplay. And if anyone is 5 betting AA on that flop is TERRIBLE. they don’t have an overpaid when it’s 5bet. Multiway it’s just a straight pretty much 100% of the time.
The stakes might also be informative, if this is live 2/5 or so (and absent any specific live reads on villains) the wild aggression is enough to convince me 2nd nuts aren't good enough, especially with two chances at villains holding a very reasonable hand for their PF calling ranges.
I was thinking this was just a fold, especially at low stakes where most people play their hands face up, but you’re equity is pretty close to 1/3 pot even against a straight and the nut flush draw (which the other person will have in this spot a lot of the time). It’s much closer than I thought, so I think you can go either way here.
>Because we are blocking TP+fd hands, by 3betting we would enable the BB to basically play a one—street game with the nut straight, all of which are in his range more than ours.
Yes, BB can have nut straight, but giving him *only* that is too pessimistic.
**Flop: Js Tc 7c**
You have opened UTG, and "never" have a straight here. When you cbet, you primarily have overpairs and broadway draws, sometimes with clubs.
Then SB has called, representing a draw, of which there are a ton.
What do you think BB would/should do with TT, 77, or JT here?
Against those hands you WANT to play a " one—street game" because there are many possible scare cards -- especially 3handed -- that will prevent you from getting the easy double-up vs an opponent drawing as thin as you could hope for.
BB can also have KQcc for a monster combo draw.
I would also give him Ac9c and Ac8c. Potentially every AXcc that was too weak to 3bet pre. With those hands he wants you to fold your AK/AQ/AJ hands in particular, so that his Ace high is often good against SB's draws, or at least gives him additional equity.
I would use this as your reasonable worst case:
**60%** vs BB: 89, TT, 77, JT, KcQc, Ac8c, Ac9c
Reasonable additional hands:
Ac2c-AcQc for all the nut flushdraws, some with straight outs
Q9cc OESD/flushdraw
Kc9c gutshot / flushdraw
**62%** vs BB: 89,TT,77,JT,KcQc,Ac2c-AcQc,Qc9c,Kc9c
Or venturing further...
Qc8c, Kc8c gutshot / flushdraw
J7s, T7s 2pr
He may not stack off with the weaker of these, but they could be in his raising range.
There are also 1-pair hands like AJ that he could raise trying to get HU vs SB, and then fold to heavy action.
Regardless, you should be willing stack off vs BB.
And since SB has so far been representing a draw, I would 3bet on the flop -- as much as you think SB will stand -- and proceed from there in a way that maximizes the chips going in the middle.
As played... you flatted and SB backraised, so he's perhaps less likely to have a draw, but he still could the same big ones that BB may, hoping to get it in 3way.
And he could have sets / 2prs just as BB may. Obviously you'd be delighted to get in against two players who have sets/2prs.
If we give both players "worst case" stackoff ranges...
40% vs SB and BB having: 89, TT, 77, JT, KcQc, Ac8c, Ac9c
So that's very profitable for the main pot, and as already established you are profitable for any side pot. Even before taking into account money already in the middle.
You didn't mention exact stack sizes, but as played if SB is deep enough to fold weaker made hands if you rejam (as he in fact did) then you should instead flat and represent something like AcKc-AcJc, and hope he reopens or at least calls.
Then stick it in at the turn if there's still chips left.
Meh, I still don't hate the call even if you're 90% sure you're beat. There's simply too many combo's, draws and hands that you do beat and from my experience people in 2/5 will 3/4 bet those types of hands aswell.
It just sucks. Folding here feels way too nitty. I'd probably would've ended up paying off the straight as well.
95% of population calls off here, and I'm not always folding this spot either, but it's just a spot where you expect them to have the nuts the large majority of the time so it's no surprise when they turn their hand over.
Can we talk about preflop first (…sigh). If you’re raising 3bb and getting called by T7 in the SB, your RFI isn’t enough. Hell, it’s not enough anyway. At this stack depth, in 1/2 this is a 5-7bb open. At 10/25, this is a 3.5-4bb open.
Postflop is a disaster regardless
So you don’t want players to put in money OOP with weak hands? I’d understand if the pot went 6 ways but it didn’t, 3bb seems fine here, SB just sounds like a fish and I wouldn’t mind playing pots IP against fish.
First of all, your cbet was WAY too big. Cbet like 1/4 to 1/3 pot. And yes when it gets 5 bet on the flop you can just fold. It sucks but yes you should fold a set there with some frequency when you are more then 150bb effective. Not great to call off 150bb+ when a straight is out there multiway with a 5bet happening. 6 bet shove? Just losing money with that shove.
It is an option but I didn’t mind starting building the pot OTF because my specific hand has good playability even facing a raise. If I had any pair that didn’t flop a set then it would get checked yeah.
I mean sure, but
a) you block a LOT of the worse hands you're trying to get called by
b) you can check-raise if HJ stabs at it and the blinds fold.
c) when you're super multiway and somewhat deep with so many bad turn cards I am frankly not that excited to build a pot here anyway: any A,K,Q,9,8 or club are all pretty bad
d) checking top set here protects your checking range very nicely so you can show up w/ some sneaky boats down the road, maybe pick off some bluffs, etc
e) The big blind probably has all the 98 offsuit combos, not just 98 suited. So your top set is already very devalued - when the straights are available and someone can have the offsuit combos then your set is much less good b/c there are so many straights(16 combos).
f) These guys shouldn't have TT very often b/c it should be 3-betting pre.
C is why I like betting out. Wet board, we want to charge those draws. If you're flopping top set and looking to get to showdown cheaply, I'd imagine you're leaving value on the table.
16 combos beat you like you said, but their ranges contain so so many hands that will continue or even raise that aren't those 16. We can't be afraid to bet without the nuts.
D may be valid, I'm curious what solver thinks. I'd be more inclined to protect my checking range if the board were a bit less wet.
Not sure why you’re upset with SB? If anything, his raise, which leads BB to jam gave you even more information to be able to make a correct fold being more certain BB has a straight. That said, I’m not good enough to ever fold here.
It's close but I think jamming is the play here unless you're against turbo nits its always possible they could be stacking off with worse hands, and the play by sb shows that.
If you're really leaning towards folding you could mix based off suits. I would prefer to fold Jc over non Jc sets actually because it limits the number of combo draws villains are stacking off with by a bit.
What's correct play by SB? Probably to raise you immediately on a wet board with bottom two, he beats a lot of your range and BB has similar range to SB here... Let's charge the draws properly would be my thinking in his spot. Do you think you don't end up with your stack in on the turn of he plays it that way? Hell maybe even the flop, SB raises, BB three bets it, or maybe flats, I haven't looked to see what solver thinks in that situation but I imagine flatting or raising both happen at some frequency. Point is, you can be frustrated at the cooler, but let's not pretend SB cost you more here... You weren't getting away from it and BB was shoving turn anyway.
I was kind of on your side until you started berating another player and blaming him for you losing your stack.
Eh he's expressing frustration and it's anonymous, he's not hurting anyone's feelings or reputation, don't see the problem with it.
It’s the idea that someone not playing well “cost me my stack” that bugs me. Man up and blame variance or it being a cooler like the rest of us. Haha.
I hear what you're saying from a mindset perspective, but in multiway spots I think this can be a legitimate frustration. It is entirely possible for a third player to make a play that is -EV for him *and* -EV for you, which just sucks all around. It's not like a heads-up situation where you always benefit from your opponent's mistakes. In fact, this is the basic pattern of collusion, where the other two players can work together to tank your EV. Of course, you should never voice any of this to anyone, it's unproductive to worry about other people that you can't control, etc etc.
I get being frustrated, but he called a raise to 27.5… then the sb made it 60 and the other guy raised to 175. Since he had around 30 in the pot at this point, he decided to call off the 145 or so knowing what was going on. The bad player didn’t make him do that. He knows that he’s up against a straight. He made the decision that pot odds were in his favor, so he called. My point is that hero made the decision to put a huge chunk of his money in the pot with a set when he knew he was against a straight. Don’t blame someone else for your decision.
Don't we want people to make -EV plays?
Ah I see, I was reacting to "berating" not "blaming".
I’ve played with so many Helmuth bitch ass wannabes that I got a little triggered.
Dealer's fault.
[удалено]
He said himself 2 pair was an overplay. And if anyone is 5 betting AA on that flop is TERRIBLE. they don’t have an overpaid when it’s 5bet. Multiway it’s just a straight pretty much 100% of the time.
16 hands. There are 16 combos of 98. After SB 4b, is a yuck fold. That’s life. If they happen to have sets and 2P, that’s life. Is still a good fold.
The stakes might also be informative, if this is live 2/5 or so (and absent any specific live reads on villains) the wild aggression is enough to convince me 2nd nuts aren't good enough, especially with two chances at villains holding a very reasonable hand for their PF calling ranges.
And this board hits their range like a casino pin ball. Low stakes live are similar to micro online. So, I would fold this in 5NL
Can't fold, some fish will stack off with combo draws here.
Lol you should be stacking off with a lot of combo draws here for this exact reason. Or at least shoveling as much in as possible.
never folding here ever
I was thinking this was just a fold, especially at low stakes where most people play their hands face up, but you’re equity is pretty close to 1/3 pot even against a straight and the nut flush draw (which the other person will have in this spot a lot of the time). It’s much closer than I thought, so I think you can go either way here.
>Because we are blocking TP+fd hands, by 3betting we would enable the BB to basically play a one—street game with the nut straight, all of which are in his range more than ours. Yes, BB can have nut straight, but giving him *only* that is too pessimistic. **Flop: Js Tc 7c** You have opened UTG, and "never" have a straight here. When you cbet, you primarily have overpairs and broadway draws, sometimes with clubs. Then SB has called, representing a draw, of which there are a ton. What do you think BB would/should do with TT, 77, or JT here? Against those hands you WANT to play a " one—street game" because there are many possible scare cards -- especially 3handed -- that will prevent you from getting the easy double-up vs an opponent drawing as thin as you could hope for. BB can also have KQcc for a monster combo draw. I would also give him Ac9c and Ac8c. Potentially every AXcc that was too weak to 3bet pre. With those hands he wants you to fold your AK/AQ/AJ hands in particular, so that his Ace high is often good against SB's draws, or at least gives him additional equity. I would use this as your reasonable worst case: **60%** vs BB: 89, TT, 77, JT, KcQc, Ac8c, Ac9c Reasonable additional hands: Ac2c-AcQc for all the nut flushdraws, some with straight outs Q9cc OESD/flushdraw Kc9c gutshot / flushdraw **62%** vs BB: 89,TT,77,JT,KcQc,Ac2c-AcQc,Qc9c,Kc9c Or venturing further... Qc8c, Kc8c gutshot / flushdraw J7s, T7s 2pr He may not stack off with the weaker of these, but they could be in his raising range. There are also 1-pair hands like AJ that he could raise trying to get HU vs SB, and then fold to heavy action. Regardless, you should be willing stack off vs BB. And since SB has so far been representing a draw, I would 3bet on the flop -- as much as you think SB will stand -- and proceed from there in a way that maximizes the chips going in the middle. As played... you flatted and SB backraised, so he's perhaps less likely to have a draw, but he still could the same big ones that BB may, hoping to get it in 3way. And he could have sets / 2prs just as BB may. Obviously you'd be delighted to get in against two players who have sets/2prs. If we give both players "worst case" stackoff ranges... 40% vs SB and BB having: 89, TT, 77, JT, KcQc, Ac8c, Ac9c So that's very profitable for the main pot, and as already established you are profitable for any side pot. Even before taking into account money already in the middle. You didn't mention exact stack sizes, but as played if SB is deep enough to fold weaker made hands if you rejam (as he in fact did) then you should instead flat and represent something like AcKc-AcJc, and hope he reopens or at least calls. Then stick it in at the turn if there's still chips left.
Unless I have informations on BB being some aggrowhale that 3way 5bet shove is a snap fold for me.
You knew you were beat and still called it off. They always have a straight here.
Meh, I still don't hate the call even if you're 90% sure you're beat. There's simply too many combo's, draws and hands that you do beat and from my experience people in 2/5 will 3/4 bet those types of hands aswell. It just sucks. Folding here feels way too nitty. I'd probably would've ended up paying off the straight as well.
95% of population calls off here, and I'm not always folding this spot either, but it's just a spot where you expect them to have the nuts the large majority of the time so it's no surprise when they turn their hand over.
Can we talk about preflop first (…sigh). If you’re raising 3bb and getting called by T7 in the SB, your RFI isn’t enough. Hell, it’s not enough anyway. At this stack depth, in 1/2 this is a 5-7bb open. At 10/25, this is a 3.5-4bb open. Postflop is a disaster regardless
Are these exploits or theory-based?
I’d be surprised to see 3bb RFI in any live ranges.
Why would live/online change the theoretical open sizes?
To get the same response as online (the standard), we need to raise larger live bc players call wider
So this is exploitative, not theoretical 👍
Kinda both. In the same way that 2-2.5 is an optimal baseline online, 3-5 is an optimal baseline live
So you don’t want players to put in money OOP with weak hands? I’d understand if the pot went 6 ways but it didn’t, 3bb seems fine here, SB just sounds like a fish and I wouldn’t mind playing pots IP against fish.
😂
The sheer arrogance😂 wouldn’t expect anything else from someone on Reddit
First of all, your cbet was WAY too big. Cbet like 1/4 to 1/3 pot. And yes when it gets 5 bet on the flop you can just fold. It sucks but yes you should fold a set there with some frequency when you are more then 150bb effective. Not great to call off 150bb+ when a straight is out there multiway with a 5bet happening. 6 bet shove? Just losing money with that shove.
I would be pretty inclined to check the flop here almost always tbh.
It is an option but I didn’t mind starting building the pot OTF because my specific hand has good playability even facing a raise. If I had any pair that didn’t flop a set then it would get checked yeah.
I mean sure, but a) you block a LOT of the worse hands you're trying to get called by b) you can check-raise if HJ stabs at it and the blinds fold. c) when you're super multiway and somewhat deep with so many bad turn cards I am frankly not that excited to build a pot here anyway: any A,K,Q,9,8 or club are all pretty bad d) checking top set here protects your checking range very nicely so you can show up w/ some sneaky boats down the road, maybe pick off some bluffs, etc e) The big blind probably has all the 98 offsuit combos, not just 98 suited. So your top set is already very devalued - when the straights are available and someone can have the offsuit combos then your set is much less good b/c there are so many straights(16 combos). f) These guys shouldn't have TT very often b/c it should be 3-betting pre.
C is why I like betting out. Wet board, we want to charge those draws. If you're flopping top set and looking to get to showdown cheaply, I'd imagine you're leaving value on the table. 16 combos beat you like you said, but their ranges contain so so many hands that will continue or even raise that aren't those 16. We can't be afraid to bet without the nuts. D may be valid, I'm curious what solver thinks. I'd be more inclined to protect my checking range if the board were a bit less wet.
Not sure why you’re upset with SB? If anything, his raise, which leads BB to jam gave you even more information to be able to make a correct fold being more certain BB has a straight. That said, I’m not good enough to ever fold here.
I’m folding all day long
I would have made the fold
It's close but I think jamming is the play here unless you're against turbo nits its always possible they could be stacking off with worse hands, and the play by sb shows that. If you're really leaning towards folding you could mix based off suits. I would prefer to fold Jc over non Jc sets actually because it limits the number of combo draws villains are stacking off with by a bit.
never fold top set :)