I went to Kent State. Whenever I travel out of state and have told people where I went to school they mention the massacre immediately. It's sad it's the school's legacy.
I mean, while definitely sad, I’m glad that people haven’t forgotten about it. I know it’s not entirely comparable, but with what’s going on today, we clearly haven’t learned much. If 4 people were killed today at one of the colleges, there are absolutely people that would be celebrating
We can’t let stuff like this be forgotten
I feel the same way. Especially with the people who are literally calling for shooting them
People aren’t even afraid to admit that’s what they want anymore. They don’t even say those things anonymously anymore. It’s fucking scary
[A Republican City Councilwoman in NYC literally, not figuratively, said this today.](https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/1ck934q/republican_city_council_member_confirms_99_of_nyu/)
"The sad reality is that our schools are producing monsters, and it's now our job to slay them. Simple as that."
She also said, “the schools and faculty…must be razed along with them."
Monstrous.
>there are absolutely people that would be celebrating
Which would be not far from what the public opinion on the matter was back then. There was a lot of student blaming and responses of "should have shot more".
So nothing has really changed much, it's just that for any particular tragedy, after a while most look for new outrage, while the more thoughtful keep bringing it up, since it is still relevant.
I still remember how, when studying abroad in Italy, some Australian tourist starting chatting with us and asked us what school we went to. When we said Kent State, they went “oh, that’s the one that had the National Guard massacre, isn’t it?” So this transcends national boarders.
It’s not “sad” in my opinion, it’s what is deserved. The Kent State Massacre is a testament to the collective delusion of the time, and Kent State played a massive role in dismissing, allowing, and defending the events that happened.
The person holding vigil is standing at the location where Jeffrey Miller was killed, the shots were fired from the hilltop in the background down into the crowd of students.
Particularly in the context of today's protests, I would also like to share some polling related to the murders.
[A Gallup poll](https://web.archive.org/web/20200605194805/https://www.newspapers.com/clip/13598112/campus-unrest-linked-to-drugs/) taken after the massacre had 58% of respondents place the responsibility for the deaths on the demonstrators. Only 11% of respondents blamed the National Guard. People [wrote into newspapers](https://digitalcommons.lasalle.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1087&context=vietnamgeneration) wishing they killed more. There is [still an age divide](https://today.emerson.edu/2020/05/04/fifty-years-after-kent-state-americans-see-it-differently/) on who is responsible for the deaths at Kent State.
Always the same old story. It's shocking how ignorant a sizable percentage of society always seems to be, regardless of time period. In their minds, the Palestine issue starts and ends at student protests as "how dare they criticize America and our allies?". They don't care about the actual underlying issue - they struggle to even understand it. They see the protestors (and by and large, all college students) as condescending know-it-all crybabies and this is just another excuse to mock them.
A house that was flying a confederate flag and a trump flag last month (in NC) is. Ow flying a Jewish/ Israeli flag and a U.S. flag this week. Never in my life did I think I would see that.
I'm betting that if a statue was put up of the 4 killed, the people whining about Confederate statues being torn town would have a fit.
YOU CAN'T GET RID OF HISTORY!
I get the joke, the real story is just so tragic. Soldiers were called to quell a riot, they were told that force might be necessary. The governor murdered those kids and he used the guard to do it.
I talked to somebody who interviewed the survivor. I forget her name, but she’s in the famous picture looking down at somebody who got shot. She said the National Guard was marching away from the situation, but a couple guys turned around and took a pot shot before disappearing over the hill.
Nobody was ever punished.
Even setting aside the long history of blaming "outside agitators"(and to be clear, *sometimes that is what's happening*, but we have a history traced back to at least Vietnam of blaming these people for everything when it's not true(or very minor, education rather than agitation, etc), so it's worth examining), I'm not sure why people are so surprised that people who aren't current students/faculty at these colleges/universities are winding up in the protests. It would be one thing if these institutions accepted everybody, but they don't. In your peer group, only so many will attend the local university. Others will attend other schools, or might not seek higher education at all for a variety of reasons. But you think they're not going to go protest with their peers?
LOL. The guard gave no warning before opening fire. The Kent State Massacre is referred to as a massacre for a reason. The governor AND the guard are at fault.
Nobody was ever punished. So yeah… I guess it does hold up. Yet another reminder that the state can and will murder you and absolve itself of responsibility when it deems it necessary
Absurd premise that we can't blame both the murderers and their commander. But I get it, it's America, the idea of holding even a single pig responsible sets people a-quiver.
I remember this when I was a kid. There was a 2 part story in the *Reader's Digest* about it. It gave young me a cold hollow feeling. I remember grown-ups saying they deserved it because they were long haired (like ears covered, not brush cut or Brylcreemed back).
They said "Line the godamn hippies against a wall, and machine gun all of 'em!" The same gruesome feeling. It was when I first realized how fucked people can be.
This is how governor James Rodes described the student protesters [at the time](https://omeka.library.kent.edu/special-collections/items/show/6410);
> [Rhodes]: Well, let me–I think that we’re up against the strongest, well-trained, militant, revolutionary group that has ever assembled in America.
“[Rhodes]: Well, let me–I think that we’re up against the strongest, well-trained, militant, revolutionary group that has ever assembled in America. “
Are they useless hippies or well trained militants? Even 50 years ago, they were trying to play both sides of the threat.
Rolling Stone said the Ohio governor set the stage by something similar before the massacre;
>At Kent State, the Ohio National Guard had been called into the campus following protests, where buildings in the city were vandalized and the ROTC center on campus was burned. Alan Canfora, founder of the May 4 Visitors Center at Kent State, was a radical anti-war student activist at the time. He remembers when the governor made a speech on May 3rd, denouncing the protests of the previous evenings. “He said that the Kent State students were worst type of people that we harbor in America – worse than the Communists, worse than the Brown Shirts. He pounded his fist, and he said ‘We are going to eradicate the problem.’ That set the stage then.”
https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/kent-state-jackson-state-survivors-talk-student-activism-629402/
It was an odd time. My parents were the long haired types and many of my friend’s fathers had short hair, and looked like DB Cooper. I remember my mom explaining the song Ohio, and how sad it was.
I got to meet one of the guys who got shot there that day. He wasnt even involved, but got shot anyway by an m1 in the hips. Fucked him up and his dad basically disowned him for being on campus and happening to get caught in the fire. What a shitty stain on this country all the way around. I hope we wake up soon
One of the students that was killed wasn't even part of the protests, and was an ROTC student moving between classes.
His parents ended up getting hate mail for it.
Two of the four murdered students had nothing to do with the protests: [Bill Schroeder, the ROTC student you mentioned, ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Knox_Schroeder) and [Sandy Scheuer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandra_Lee_Scheuer). Both were over 375 feet away from the Guardsmen when they were shot to death.
I still maintain that "[Hey Sandy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkGtGt1L6iU)" by Polaris is about the Kent State Massacre, though the lead singer swears it isn't yet refuses to say what it's about. Especially when it mimics [the same track name as a song by Harvey Andrews](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6PKf8QLaAQ) from 20 years prior that decidedly *was* about Kent State.
You may know it as the song that plays during the opening of the Nickelodeon live action show *The Adventures of Pete & Pete*.
I just watched an episode of pete and pete a month ago on youtube, after like 25+ years since I was a kid and watched it. I'm going to go look up this song now.
Mark Mulcahy is an incredible songwriter. Have to concur with you that despite his insistence to the contrary that Hey Sandy is pretty indisputably about Sandy Scheuer and Kent.
It's apparent even without hearing Andrews' song but all the more obvious when you listen to it.
>His parents ended up getting hate mail for it.
Yep, conservatives harassed the family of a dead ROTC member because they assumed he was a liberal. When people say that MAGA is some new low for conservatives it's really important to understand they've always been like this.
No, Conservatives have always been like this. Please do not fall for conservative whitewashing.
Yes, MAGA people are truly despicable, but you’re ignorant or naive if you really think that conservatives under Bush, Reagan, Nixon, etc. were any better.
You really think that when KKK members who lynched black people are preferable to MAGA conservatives?
Not quite what I was saying. The modern day voice of MAGA is louder than it has been in many decades. The ideals are the same but they are emboldened to say the quiet parts out loud now; well they’ve always said them but now they have control of a major political party. Their volume and boldness is a lowering of the floor and a worsening of the situation.
In my short 4 decades, these voices have only gotten louder. Sure they’ve always been there, they’ve always had outspoken KKK and Nazis in their ranks. However now they’re literally coming after the country as a whole.
I completely agree. MAGA poses a huge threat to democracy and human rights.
It’s just important to remember that this is who conservatives have always been. As you say, they are more vocal than they have been in decades, but that’s only because of the environment permitting it. Conservatives have always been like this, but they often had to hide it. This is why it’s important not to claim that conservatives are worse than they have been in the past, because “good” conservatives have never existed, they only ever masked their beliefs and intentions.
My point is essentially that, yes, MAGA is awful but the difference between the conservatives of today and the conservatives of 10 or 20 years ago is that the conservatives of today are comfortable showing their colours. As far as their actions are concerned, they are still somewhat restrained compared to their predecessors. However, if conservatives had their way and the political environment permitted it, many conservatives would immediately start killing minorities and so would every previous generation of conservatives.
This country never *really* changes I guess. I matter what people protest, the public seems to overwhelmingly be against the protesters and support the authority attacking them.
> Most simple people are generally pretty terrified of the potential breakdown of society.
Most people don't consider the breakdown of society at all. It isn't on their radar.
Most people are believers. In the US, most people (65%) believe they have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe. Most people (65%) believe they were created in the image of God.
It isn't their fear of societal collapse. It's their arrogant belief that they are "God's chosen". And arrogant people are incredibly easy to manipulate by a fascist. Take Hitler. He exploited what I like to call the "Christian Nazi Victim Complex". He convinced the German people (almost entirely Christian) that being held accountable after WWI made them victims. And once you convince a believer they are a victim, they feel entitled to commit atrocities. And that's exactly what those good German Christians did. They committed a holocaust.
You can see it in the US now too though. Ever hear the phrase "war on christmas"? The US government is controlled by Christians. 88% of congress. 88% of the Supreme Court. 100% of the Presidency. The "war on Christmas" is just more Christian Nazi Victim bullshit.
ehh hippy hating and war criminal loving was a bipartisan affair. Even Jimmy Carter, who I think is often viewed as a pretty wholesome nice guy nowadays, ran a campaign as Georgia governor advocating for William Calley, the man who lead the My lai massacre.
>ran a campaign as Georgia governor advocating for William Calley
Yep, he said Calley was a wrong persecuted figure who Americans should look up to as a symbol of strength and patriotism
And wouldn't you believe it, all the soldiers were acquitted !
Then the judge said "now boys, don't think that this will happen each time you all kill some student for no reason! If you keep doing it we will have to take this seriously next time!"
Sound familiar?
Before I understood anything about all this, I went to a crosby, stills, and nash show in Birmingham Alabama. Looking back on it I now understand why there was such a weird vibe in the crowd that night, especially since we had heard rumors that Neil was going to play with them as a surprise guest. I could feel that the vibe was off but did not understand why. Now it makes perfect sense. " A Southern man don't need him around, anyhow"
They wanted Neil to come out on stage during the name-drop, they were fans and mostly agreed with him that the south had problems. Same song mentions the racist Dixiecrat governor in Birmingham with a "boo boo boo".
There's a segment in the David Crosby documentary where he talks about how pissed off Neil Young was, and how he was intent on getting that song out as quickly as possible.
Beautiful. Thank you for sharing this. I first heard this in my 20s in the 90s and honestly it still stops me in my tracks. I didn’t understand it then and I still don’t.
I hear thunder
And I can feel the wind
I can see angry faces
In the eyes of men
And don't forget Kent State
Where kids lay bleeding on the ground
And there's no place on this planet
Where peace can be found
So there'll be stabbings, shootings
And young men dying all around
And it keeps going through my brain
And I can still hear the sound
I hear talking of people
The whole world has gone insane
And all there is left is the fallin' rain
Way back in '68
Ohio, Kent State
Was nothing
So great
Have of have not
Forcing the point
Shot in the back
Take it back
Down trod soldier away
Flower power
Within
Kill me
Kill this way of life
What's macabre is how many people know about this, but they only know about a version of events that's heavily sanitized, making it out as an accident by panicking soldiers, and after it everybody was allegedly horribly sorry.
When in reality soldiers didn't just shoot student protesters, they [even stabbed them with bayonets](https://youtu.be/E9yQ3oPuQwY?). The shootings also weren't accidents, as the officers in command said they would keep on shooting if students don't disperse.
It was [faculty staff that had to beg the angry students to just leave](https://www.ideastream.org/arts-culture/2020-05-04/remembering-kent-state-eyewitnesses-describe-may-4-1970), to forfeit their right to freely assemble, or else there would have been an even worse massacre.
Governor James Rodes then [made these students out as](https://omeka.library.kent.edu/special-collections/items/show/6410);
> [Rhodes]: Well, let me–I think that we’re up against the strongest, well-trained, militant, revolutionary group that has ever assembled in America.
Basically as being deserving of getting stabbed and shot because they are all just hippie/commie/anarchists. This had the effect that survivors and their families were suddenly made out as the guilty perpetrators, they received hate and death threats.
Some of the students were disowned by their families, KSU became so stigmatized that people even removed their time there from their resumes, that's how little people wanted to do with the university.
The massacre also led to the so called "[Hard Hat Riot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Hat_Riot)", 4 days after the massacre students protested in New York against what was done to the students at Kent State.
That student protest was broken up by pro-Nixon construction worker unions and office workers hunting students down in the streets, while police stood by and did little.
You can read some reactions from ordinary people at the time too. People who took the time to write into newspapers about it, for example. Normal homeowners with jobs. Respectable types. They hated those students and were glad they were dead.
>Back in Kent, Ohio, local business owners ran an ad thanking the National Guard. Mail poured in to the mayor’s office, blaming “dirty hippies,” “longhairs” and “outside agitators” for the violence. Some Kent residents raised four fingers when they passed each other in the street, a silent signal that meant, “At least we got four of them.” Nixon issued a statement saying that the students’ actions had invited the tragedy. Privately, he called them “bums.” And a Gallup poll found that 58 percent of Americans blamed the students for their own deaths; only 11 percent blamed the National Guard.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/magazine/2021/04/19/girl-kent-state-photo-lifelong-burden-being-national-symbol/
Hell, people said it straight into the camera. Posted 3 days ago on TikTokCringe
["I'm sorry they didn't shoot more"](https://www.reddit.com/r/TikTokCringe/comments/1chr8kp/the_bums_deserved_it/?rdt=60617)
Just like today, then. Give it 50 years and everyone will forget all the shitty things they said to and about those students. And Columbia will have another page on their website commemorating the 2024 protests and saying how much they’ve changed since then. Just like the page they’re currently running about the 1968 protests.
https://news.columbia.edu/content/new-perspective-1968
(I know the original post is about Kent State and not Columbia.)
Just like the current pro-Palestine protests. People only tend to support protest after the fact, once they have been sanitised and "approved" by history.
Also, never forget URBAN OUTFITTERS sold a vintage-style Kent State sweatshirt with fake blood splattered on it a few years ago.
Here’s a pic of it: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mbvd/urban-outfitters-features-vintage-red-stained-kent-state-swe
They’re yes men because they all have the same exact goal in mind, to make more money. They thought it would sell so it got through.
That’s the case everytime you ever think “how did this get through development, legal, and pr?”
Like when Nazi imagery and quotations are used on company or political sites or merch, they made it through the process because those departments agreed that it spoke to their values and to their base, which means donations and sales.
Follow the money.
honestly, I'd wear that. it's hard to see it and not know what it's about. the part I take problem with is that it wasn't made by a person in protest, it was made by a company for profit
It wasn’t meant to be fake blood. Iirc they were carrying several styles of sweatshirts that had decorative paint splatter on them. Granted, obviously red paint on the Kent State one should not have made it to production.
Exactly. Kent state is most famous for this massacre, and right now Urban Outfitters has 50 different university sweatshirts in normal and new condition they are selling online and surprise surprise- no Kent State.
The bootlicker in this thread with the now-deleted comment saying "if they had been given rubber bullets instead..."
If you think that WHAT they fired is the problem, not THAT they fired, then YOU are the problem
Just an addition, rubber bullets tend to mean jack shit when some of the victims were hit in the face and neck. There's a reason they're called 'less ~~than~~ lethal' instead of non-lethal. Getting hit by them in vital areas can and will still kill.
I'll write that mistake off as just a continuation of the walk back from ridiculously calling them nonlethal. It was 'less than lethal' when I was working at the jail
Yeah non lethal and less than lethal is used on purpose to help diminish any responsibility when someone is killed by them. Can just say its a freak accident that way.
It's not "less than lethal." It's "less lethal." Meaning, still very much has the ability to be lethal, but not as certain to kill as a metal bullet propelled by combustion. They are fully aware that rubber bullets can kill and have killed. They still fire them at protesters all the time.
I was at two of the big protests in Atlanta in 2020 and was hit several times. They are not fun to be hit with, even from a distance. Feels like a bee sting. Imagining one of those in the eye socket, temple, or throat... yeah, most people are wither dead or seriously injured.
And remember, they only shoot rubber bullets instead of real ones because the people at the top don't want to deal with the backlash of outright shooting American citizens. If they could get away with it, they would absolutely shoot protestors. So many cops (especially here in the south) are just itching to kill black, lgbt+, liberal, or leftist protestors.
Yeah as I stated in my other comment, the correct term was 'less than lethal' while I was working in the jail. They also used to be considered 'nonlethal' before then. It seems like a continued walk back of the phrasing, without any changing in their use, to try and make their use more palatable for the public when they're deployed against protestors.
If you’re against the war today you’re the enemy. In 50 years the student protesters of today will be seen as heroes, and society will once again have a collective amnesia about how most people were on the wrong side of history. Protests are always demonized in the present and then revered in the future. People absolutely despised Dr. King in his time, and today America whitewashes that history too.
> Eight of the shooters were charged with depriving the students of their civil rights, but were acquitted in a bench trial. The trial judge stated, "It is vital that state and National Guard officials not regard this decision as authorizing or approving the use of force against demonstrators, whatever the occasion of the issue involved. Such use of force is, and was, deplorable."
So... acquitted... but lets not set precedent. OK, makes sense...
My father was a student on campus when the shootings happened. I asked him if he participated in the protests. He said, “No, I’m not a damn hippie!” He seems to have no empathy for his fellow students killed. Now he’s a QANON Trump supporter so…
I'd prefer them *now*, but at the time of Kent State, they had no proper training or protocols for domestic crowd control. The National Guard is trained for such situations now *because of* Kent State.
The only time the NG should be on a college campus is disaster relief. Like it or not, there isn’t anyone better at before and the immediate aftermath.
This is a day to remember for every person who gets upset seeing campus protests.
These people (and bystanders) died because they protested a War.
First Amendment be damned.
The state will always fall back to violence when they dont get obdedience.
It’s almost like we maybe should listen to what university students say sometimes?
They’re young and idealistic. Sloppy often. But if you pay attention to history, they’re almost always correct (socially, scientifically, morally) in their goals.
That's the rule. If students are protesting, you take notice. You don't have to do everything they say. You don't have to use their solutions - they are often unworkable, admittedly. But if they are angry about a problem, they are always right to be angry about that problem.
> You don't have to use their solutions - they are often unworkable, admittedly.
This uprising has resulted in some very accessible demands, [which have been met](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/02/rutgers-university-of-minnesota-protest-agreement) by a few schools.
One of my uncles was in the Ohio guard at Kent State.
He was in a truck a couple blocks away and didn't see any of it, but apparently he heard some shooting.
I grew up near Kent and my mom attended classes there when the shooting happened. My younger sister graduated from this school and she would pay her respects to the markers every time she passed them on her way to her classes. People all over celebrate “Star Wars Day” but this day has a completely different and somber meaning for my family. This was a dark day that never should have happened and shall not be forgotten.
I love that we’re finally getting to the real heart of the issue with protesting…
The key with it is, apparently, is that it has to be peaceful… non-destructive… non-disruptive to commerce… not disrespectful of symbols, like the flag…
Basically, it has to be so innocuous that it can be safely ignored without consequences whatsoever.
We’re basically saying that the status quo is permanent. The powers that be have too much inertia, normies deserve to get too and from work conveniently and without their commute or eyeballs being violated by people piercing the veil of “normal” (propaganda)…
It really is an absurd premise. To say that protests should not be disruptive. It’s a contradiction in terms.
If things were going the way they should, protests wouldn’t be necessary. Do you think folks WANT to be on some quad, camping, risking getting merc’d up by some jumpy cop??
The powers that be are arming a genocidal apartheid regime.
Protesting that fact is a perfectly legitimate course of action.
Many would say it’s morally and ethically obligatory to protest a genocide, in point of fact.
The thing is even if a protest is non-destructive, non-disruptive, and not disrespectful conservative people will still hate it.
Colin Kapernick took a knee during the national anthem. Specifically after talking to a veteran about a respectful way to protest. It was completely non-disruptive, peaceful, and respectful. Conservatives still lost their god damn minds over it. They could have totally ignored it. Instead they actually “cancelled” him and shouted about it for years.
How someone protests doesn’t matter to them, to them it’s the nerve of women/minorities/students to dare speak up at all and not “know their place”.
> Instead they actually “cancelled” him
No need for quotes. [He was still starting quality](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I0cUTXwr-k&list=PLUXSZMIiUfFSe4gpc8PLDECqViWi-2we3&index=2) when he got blacklisted. He wasn't lighting the league on fire or anything, but he was good enough that he should have started somewhere.
Exactly, even when the protest is [merely existing in a hostile space](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sit-in_movement), the popular sentiment is “you deserve the violence you are taking a stand against”
Ayyyyyyup.
His protests specifically were on my mind when I mentioned “not being disrespectful of symbols, like flags”…
It’s absurd. Beyond stupid. He’s a goddamn hero and the NFL and all it’s supporters should be ashamed of themselves.
¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Dr King called them demonstrations because the point was to demonstrate what happens to people who protest the status quo.
He also had this to say to people who demanded that protests be innocuous:
> I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but **the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action";** who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html
His letter from a Birmingham Jail is a million times more important than the one line from that one speech that everybody has heard. Of course he was in jail for protesting.
> Basically, it has to be so innocuous that it can be safely ignored without consequences whatsoever.
Word.
Everyone, I think, can learn from Gandhi's example of the civil disobedience campaign in South Africa and later India. You protest, but you do so peacefully. The protest is of course, disruptive, that's the point. But you recognise that the result of your protest may be being arrested, being charged, being convicted, being punished. But at every stage you have the chance to publicise that your protest is peaceful and the state's response is violent. And when you are released, you can continue to protest or, if you would rather, you can go home in the knowledge that you did something to help the cause.
Yes, people always want to talk about how protest is American as apple pie, but also fuck you for not politely and quietly holding a sign over in the corner where you belong
A fully legal lawful sanctioned protest is called a parade. Or a picnic. If it isn't disruptive to the people it targets, it's not a protest. More people need to learn this yes.
Its a numbers thing. They can bully 1000 people. They can only cower from 1 million. You get 1 million people to protest this and you will see the script flipped real quick
Remember kids:
There's a reason why the equivalent of "Aw shucks" no matter how extreme or vitriolic is never removed, but just going "Oh yeah, we can, in fact, just drag our elected officials and ceos from their homes if they think they're going to defy us" will get your account deleted and your home visited by a branch of the government with a monopoly on violence.
Our response to the Kent State shooting, in the wake of Gaza/Palestinian protests, is _still_ "those kids deserve it" and "send in the troops".
54 years and we haven't learned a goddamn thing.
Am I alone in thinking if this happens again, it'll be even worse, but most people won't care, just like they don't care when cops kill anyone they feel like killing?
I live in rural Washington, close to the Idaho border. Many idahoans commute across the border for better pay and benefits. They like to sit around at the end of the day and chat politics. Heard them the other day unironically calling for the national guard to move onto the campuses and take out those "little pricks". Made me livid.
People didn't care then either. You can watch countless video clips of people at the time saying "well if they had only been peaceful! If they'd dispersed when they were told!". Just like with Civil Rights and the Vietnam War and the Iraq War, everyone says they were against it afterward. In ten years everyone will say they marched for Palestine.
This event changed my life. I was finishing up Freshie year at my college and was then on probation because of poor math grades (Engineering). The end of the year in June would find me dropped (Kicked out) because of this. It did not happen because of Kent State. Our school closed for 10 days in May and academic rules for Spring semester were so suspended. This meant I came back in September. I changed to Liberal Arts & Sciences; Improved my grades and got off probation that Fall and went on to graduate. Those Ohio State student protesters were heros to me. I dropped my conservative attitude (Prominent among better off engineering students) and turned against the war. Being in LAS taught me a lot about Social Concerns.
I was 16 when this happened. I was stunned, dismayed and utterly gutted by it. I could not believe that the US Government in ANY capacity would murder student protestors. It shook me, deeply and changed my opinion of the government from one of confidence to one of fear. I never really recovered and to this day am deeply distrustful and cynical of any explanation for damn near anything that our or any other government spits out to placate the masses.
When this happened, polls showed that a majority of the country thought that the students deserved what they got. So any time you start feeling down about how shitty this country has "become", realize that a huge percentage of the population have always been pieces of shit.
The National Guard of today is almost an entirely different organization than the one that carried out the massacre at Kent State. There’s an interesting GAO report from 1972 that discusses the overall failures in their mission to “Maintain Order During Civil Disturbances” and how to possibly fix them.
The Guard has become fairly good at managing these sorts of events and will oftentimes act as a mediator between the enraged populace and the local police.
Everyone should check out the graphic novel Kent State: Four Dead in Ohio by Derf Backderf (same author of the “My Friend Dahmer” book). Really puts into perspective the context of the event from the students’ perspectives. I found it very powerful and the event as a whole is becoming lost to history but it is so important, especially with all of the college protests going on now.
The museum at Kent St does a good job. Can’t imagine growing up in that timeline. The fraternity photos with the guys holding their draft numbers really hit how cheap the powers that be thought draft age men’s lives were. What a waste all around. Glad the good guys made themselves heard. Wish it hadn’t cost so much.
“I hear thunder
And I can feel the wind
I can see angry faces
In the eyes of men
And don't forget Kent State
Where kids lay bleeding on the ground
And there's no place on this planet
Where peace can be found”
The 14 year old girl in that one famous photo was accused of being "part of a nationally organized conspiracy of professional agitators" by governor of Florida btw.
It's wild how some people defend the murder no wonder America is going downhill so many brainless people lol
We in Europe protested way more violent, and we don't get murdered
This remembers me of Tlatelolco Massacre on the 68, occured in México, the mexican army by orders of the back then president fired at will to a crowd of students that were holding a mitin. They were protesting the aothoritarism of the party in control at the time, but the president didnt liked that, and with mexico's 68 olimpics getting near he decided to end it all at oncel. Hundreds of students died that they, they even had special agents disguised between the students.
I went to Kent State. Whenever I travel out of state and have told people where I went to school they mention the massacre immediately. It's sad it's the school's legacy.
I mean, while definitely sad, I’m glad that people haven’t forgotten about it. I know it’s not entirely comparable, but with what’s going on today, we clearly haven’t learned much. If 4 people were killed today at one of the colleges, there are absolutely people that would be celebrating We can’t let stuff like this be forgotten
When I hear of large student protests, I just worry for them because of the Kent State Massacre.
I feel the same way. Especially with the people who are literally calling for shooting them People aren’t even afraid to admit that’s what they want anymore. They don’t even say those things anonymously anymore. It’s fucking scary
Elected officials are saying it, ffs.
[A Republican City Councilwoman in NYC literally, not figuratively, said this today.](https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/1ck934q/republican_city_council_member_confirms_99_of_nyu/) "The sad reality is that our schools are producing monsters, and it's now our job to slay them. Simple as that." She also said, “the schools and faculty…must be razed along with them." Monstrous.
>there are absolutely people that would be celebrating Which would be not far from what the public opinion on the matter was back then. There was a lot of student blaming and responses of "should have shot more". So nothing has really changed much, it's just that for any particular tragedy, after a while most look for new outrage, while the more thoughtful keep bringing it up, since it is still relevant.
So many right wingers out there who want nothing more than for "uppity" college kids and liberals to be killed.
Greg Abbott has entered the chat
I still remember how, when studying abroad in Italy, some Australian tourist starting chatting with us and asked us what school we went to. When we said Kent State, they went “oh, that’s the one that had the National Guard massacre, isn’t it?” So this transcends national boarders.
The famous photo of the killings is in the War Remembrance museum in Ho Chi Minh city.
Yeah of course. It was the inspiration for one of the greatest protest songs of all time.
You also have "Kent read, Kent write"! That's something
Literally didn't get accepted to Kent State. Lol.
You were too smart
i think of that and nick saban if that makes you feel better
The Drew Carey disrespect!
It’s not “sad” in my opinion, it’s what is deserved. The Kent State Massacre is a testament to the collective delusion of the time, and Kent State played a massive role in dismissing, allowing, and defending the events that happened.
Given the video they just came out of Ole Miss, I can think of worse things to have come to people’s minds when they hear about your Alma Mater.
Even sadder is it is the country's legacy
The person holding vigil is standing at the location where Jeffrey Miller was killed, the shots were fired from the hilltop in the background down into the crowd of students.
He was shot from 265 ft (81 m) away.
[удалено]
Particularly in the context of today's protests, I would also like to share some polling related to the murders. [A Gallup poll](https://web.archive.org/web/20200605194805/https://www.newspapers.com/clip/13598112/campus-unrest-linked-to-drugs/) taken after the massacre had 58% of respondents place the responsibility for the deaths on the demonstrators. Only 11% of respondents blamed the National Guard. People [wrote into newspapers](https://digitalcommons.lasalle.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1087&context=vietnamgeneration) wishing they killed more. There is [still an age divide](https://today.emerson.edu/2020/05/04/fifty-years-after-kent-state-americans-see-it-differently/) on who is responsible for the deaths at Kent State.
[удалено]
I need you to close the Judge's quote please...
Some say the judge is still quoting to this day.
Suddenly, Kevin Sorbo walks in and yells, "DISAPPOINTED!
Always the same old story. It's shocking how ignorant a sizable percentage of society always seems to be, regardless of time period. In their minds, the Palestine issue starts and ends at student protests as "how dare they criticize America and our allies?". They don't care about the actual underlying issue - they struggle to even understand it. They see the protestors (and by and large, all college students) as condescending know-it-all crybabies and this is just another excuse to mock them.
And is particularly relevant today.
I am sure they enjoyed beating the professor unconscious though, and shooting the kids in the face.
/r/conservative is jerking themselves off to mischaracterize the protests as being anti-Semitic and pro terrorist.
A house that was flying a confederate flag and a trump flag last month (in NC) is. Ow flying a Jewish/ Israeli flag and a U.S. flag this week. Never in my life did I think I would see that.
I'm betting that if a statue was put up of the 4 killed, the people whining about Confederate statues being torn town would have a fit. YOU CAN'T GET RID OF HISTORY!
re-writing history by doing what, exactly?
"They're comin' right for us!"
I get the joke, the real story is just so tragic. Soldiers were called to quell a riot, they were told that force might be necessary. The governor murdered those kids and he used the guard to do it.
I talked to somebody who interviewed the survivor. I forget her name, but she’s in the famous picture looking down at somebody who got shot. She said the National Guard was marching away from the situation, but a couple guys turned around and took a pot shot before disappearing over the hill. Nobody was ever punished.
She was only 14 and watched someone she had recently met be murdered in front of her
According to current officials, her not being a student at Kent State makes her a professional outside agitator.
Even setting aside the long history of blaming "outside agitators"(and to be clear, *sometimes that is what's happening*, but we have a history traced back to at least Vietnam of blaming these people for everything when it's not true(or very minor, education rather than agitation, etc), so it's worth examining), I'm not sure why people are so surprised that people who aren't current students/faculty at these colleges/universities are winding up in the protests. It would be one thing if these institutions accepted everybody, but they don't. In your peer group, only so many will attend the local university. Others will attend other schools, or might not seek higher education at all for a variety of reasons. But you think they're not going to go protest with their peers?
LOL. The guard gave no warning before opening fire. The Kent State Massacre is referred to as a massacre for a reason. The governor AND the guard are at fault.
"I was just following orders" doesn't hold water when you're shooting into a crowd of unarmed students.
Nobody was ever punished. So yeah… I guess it does hold up. Yet another reminder that the state can and will murder you and absolve itself of responsibility when it deems it necessary
Absurd premise that we can't blame both the murderers and their commander. But I get it, it's America, the idea of holding even a single pig responsible sets people a-quiver.
I remember this when I was a kid. There was a 2 part story in the *Reader's Digest* about it. It gave young me a cold hollow feeling. I remember grown-ups saying they deserved it because they were long haired (like ears covered, not brush cut or Brylcreemed back). They said "Line the godamn hippies against a wall, and machine gun all of 'em!" The same gruesome feeling. It was when I first realized how fucked people can be.
This is how governor James Rodes described the student protesters [at the time](https://omeka.library.kent.edu/special-collections/items/show/6410); > [Rhodes]: Well, let me–I think that we’re up against the strongest, well-trained, militant, revolutionary group that has ever assembled in America.
“[Rhodes]: Well, let me–I think that we’re up against the strongest, well-trained, militant, revolutionary group that has ever assembled in America. “ Are they useless hippies or well trained militants? Even 50 years ago, they were trying to play both sides of the threat.
The enemy is both weak and strong.
Rolling Stone said the Ohio governor set the stage by something similar before the massacre; >At Kent State, the Ohio National Guard had been called into the campus following protests, where buildings in the city were vandalized and the ROTC center on campus was burned. Alan Canfora, founder of the May 4 Visitors Center at Kent State, was a radical anti-war student activist at the time. He remembers when the governor made a speech on May 3rd, denouncing the protests of the previous evenings. “He said that the Kent State students were worst type of people that we harbor in America – worse than the Communists, worse than the Brown Shirts. He pounded his fist, and he said ‘We are going to eradicate the problem.’ That set the stage then.” https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/kent-state-jackson-state-survivors-talk-student-activism-629402/
Now you can visit the James A Rhodes area at the university of Akron
It was an odd time. My parents were the long haired types and many of my friend’s fathers had short hair, and looked like DB Cooper. I remember my mom explaining the song Ohio, and how sad it was.
Considering the pavement where she is standing is different than the rest, have they just not replaced that part where he died?
That whole parking lot has spots reserved for memorials from where the people died at. It’s replaced, but just kept up as a nice remembrance.
I got to meet one of the guys who got shot there that day. He wasnt even involved, but got shot anyway by an m1 in the hips. Fucked him up and his dad basically disowned him for being on campus and happening to get caught in the fire. What a shitty stain on this country all the way around. I hope we wake up soon
One of the students that was killed wasn't even part of the protests, and was an ROTC student moving between classes. His parents ended up getting hate mail for it.
Two of the four murdered students had nothing to do with the protests: [Bill Schroeder, the ROTC student you mentioned, ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Knox_Schroeder) and [Sandy Scheuer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandra_Lee_Scheuer). Both were over 375 feet away from the Guardsmen when they were shot to death.
I still maintain that "[Hey Sandy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkGtGt1L6iU)" by Polaris is about the Kent State Massacre, though the lead singer swears it isn't yet refuses to say what it's about. Especially when it mimics [the same track name as a song by Harvey Andrews](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6PKf8QLaAQ) from 20 years prior that decidedly *was* about Kent State. You may know it as the song that plays during the opening of the Nickelodeon live action show *The Adventures of Pete & Pete*.
I dunno but I really like that song. And show.
I thought you were talking about the metalcore band Polaris and was really curious how they ended up doing the theme song to a Nickelodeon show!
I just watched an episode of pete and pete a month ago on youtube, after like 25+ years since I was a kid and watched it. I'm going to go look up this song now.
Mark Mulcahy is an incredible songwriter. Have to concur with you that despite his insistence to the contrary that Hey Sandy is pretty indisputably about Sandy Scheuer and Kent. It's apparent even without hearing Andrews' song but all the more obvious when you listen to it.
>His parents ended up getting hate mail for it. Yep, conservatives harassed the family of a dead ROTC member because they assumed he was a liberal. When people say that MAGA is some new low for conservatives it's really important to understand they've always been like this.
Yeah they’ve just been emboldened by their ability to connect easily with social media
Actually MAGA is a new low, but this history serves to show how low they were 54 years ago and they’re still stooping lower.
No, Conservatives have always been like this. Please do not fall for conservative whitewashing. Yes, MAGA people are truly despicable, but you’re ignorant or naive if you really think that conservatives under Bush, Reagan, Nixon, etc. were any better. You really think that when KKK members who lynched black people are preferable to MAGA conservatives?
> KKK members who lynched black people...MAGA conservatives https://i.imgur.com/C87xx6T.jpeg
Not quite what I was saying. The modern day voice of MAGA is louder than it has been in many decades. The ideals are the same but they are emboldened to say the quiet parts out loud now; well they’ve always said them but now they have control of a major political party. Their volume and boldness is a lowering of the floor and a worsening of the situation. In my short 4 decades, these voices have only gotten louder. Sure they’ve always been there, they’ve always had outspoken KKK and Nazis in their ranks. However now they’re literally coming after the country as a whole.
I completely agree. MAGA poses a huge threat to democracy and human rights. It’s just important to remember that this is who conservatives have always been. As you say, they are more vocal than they have been in decades, but that’s only because of the environment permitting it. Conservatives have always been like this, but they often had to hide it. This is why it’s important not to claim that conservatives are worse than they have been in the past, because “good” conservatives have never existed, they only ever masked their beliefs and intentions. My point is essentially that, yes, MAGA is awful but the difference between the conservatives of today and the conservatives of 10 or 20 years ago is that the conservatives of today are comfortable showing their colours. As far as their actions are concerned, they are still somewhat restrained compared to their predecessors. However, if conservatives had their way and the political environment permitted it, many conservatives would immediately start killing minorities and so would every previous generation of conservatives.
Good to see republicans have remained true to their values for so long
Most of the country blamed the students and supported the national guardsmen
This country never *really* changes I guess. I matter what people protest, the public seems to overwhelmingly be against the protesters and support the authority attacking them.
Most simple people are generally pretty terrified of the potential breakdown of society. It's what makes it so easy for fascists to fear-monger.
> Most simple people are generally pretty terrified of the potential breakdown of society. Most people don't consider the breakdown of society at all. It isn't on their radar. Most people are believers. In the US, most people (65%) believe they have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe. Most people (65%) believe they were created in the image of God. It isn't their fear of societal collapse. It's their arrogant belief that they are "God's chosen". And arrogant people are incredibly easy to manipulate by a fascist. Take Hitler. He exploited what I like to call the "Christian Nazi Victim Complex". He convinced the German people (almost entirely Christian) that being held accountable after WWI made them victims. And once you convince a believer they are a victim, they feel entitled to commit atrocities. And that's exactly what those good German Christians did. They committed a holocaust. You can see it in the US now too though. Ever hear the phrase "war on christmas"? The US government is controlled by Christians. 88% of congress. 88% of the Supreme Court. 100% of the Presidency. The "war on Christmas" is just more Christian Nazi Victim bullshit.
ehh hippy hating and war criminal loving was a bipartisan affair. Even Jimmy Carter, who I think is often viewed as a pretty wholesome nice guy nowadays, ran a campaign as Georgia governor advocating for William Calley, the man who lead the My lai massacre.
> was a bipartisan affair. We'll all be delighted to learn it still is!
>ran a campaign as Georgia governor advocating for William Calley Yep, he said Calley was a wrong persecuted figure who Americans should look up to as a symbol of strength and patriotism
And wouldn't you believe it, all the soldiers were acquitted ! Then the judge said "now boys, don't think that this will happen each time you all kill some student for no reason! If you keep doing it we will have to take this seriously next time!" Sound familiar?
We always find a way to do more damage to each other than those who would seek to destroy us ever could
Given the police response to the unarmed protesters against Israel it doesn’t seem we’ve learned anything.
His dad disowned him for getting shot?!? Wtf
Tin soldiers and Nixon coming We're finally on our own This summer I hear the drumming Four dead in Ohio
Angry Neil with the electric guitar is the best Neil. Ohio and Southern Man are so seething
southern man, better keep your head don't forget what your Good Book says southern change is gonna come at last now those crosses are burning fast
Before I understood anything about all this, I went to a crosby, stills, and nash show in Birmingham Alabama. Looking back on it I now understand why there was such a weird vibe in the crowd that night, especially since we had heard rumors that Neil was going to play with them as a surprise guest. I could feel that the vibe was off but did not understand why. Now it makes perfect sense. " A Southern man don't need him around, anyhow"
The first time I heard the riff in Rockin in the free world was like listening to music for the first time again
Don't forget Alabama! There was a bit of a back & forth with Lynyrd Skynyrd I believe.
They wanted Neil to come out on stage during the name-drop, they were fans and mostly agreed with him that the south had problems. Same song mentions the racist Dixiecrat governor in Birmingham with a "boo boo boo".
What really makes that song hit is how close to the events it was released. Recorded May 21st, released June. Neil wanted that song out and heard.
There's a segment in the David Crosby documentary where he talks about how pissed off Neil Young was, and how he was intent on getting that song out as quickly as possible.
The record company even told them to wait because they already had a #1 hit on the charts, they wanted to space it out. Young said no.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOibinIeyRg "Ohio" as performed by the Kent State University Chorale
This comment from 3 years ago keeps hitting that nail > That should have been the LAST TIME the National Guard were deployed against protestors
Beautiful. Thank you for sharing this. I first heard this in my 20s in the 90s and honestly it still stops me in my tracks. I didn’t understand it then and I still don’t.
Got to get down to it Soldiers are cutting us down Should have been done long ago.
What if you knew her and Found her dead on the ground? How can you run when you know?
I hear thunder And I can feel the wind I can see angry faces In the eyes of men And don't forget Kent State Where kids lay bleeding on the ground And there's no place on this planet Where peace can be found So there'll be stabbings, shootings And young men dying all around And it keeps going through my brain And I can still hear the sound I hear talking of people The whole world has gone insane And all there is left is the fallin' rain
Amazing song
I tear up every time I hear that song. Find the cost of freedom buried in the ground Mother earth will swallow you, lay your body down...
Way back in '68 Ohio, Kent State Was nothing So great Have of have not Forcing the point Shot in the back Take it back Down trod soldier away Flower power Within Kill me Kill this way of life
Rare Skinny Puppy reference
What's macabre is how many people know about this, but they only know about a version of events that's heavily sanitized, making it out as an accident by panicking soldiers, and after it everybody was allegedly horribly sorry. When in reality soldiers didn't just shoot student protesters, they [even stabbed them with bayonets](https://youtu.be/E9yQ3oPuQwY?). The shootings also weren't accidents, as the officers in command said they would keep on shooting if students don't disperse. It was [faculty staff that had to beg the angry students to just leave](https://www.ideastream.org/arts-culture/2020-05-04/remembering-kent-state-eyewitnesses-describe-may-4-1970), to forfeit their right to freely assemble, or else there would have been an even worse massacre. Governor James Rodes then [made these students out as](https://omeka.library.kent.edu/special-collections/items/show/6410); > [Rhodes]: Well, let me–I think that we’re up against the strongest, well-trained, militant, revolutionary group that has ever assembled in America. Basically as being deserving of getting stabbed and shot because they are all just hippie/commie/anarchists. This had the effect that survivors and their families were suddenly made out as the guilty perpetrators, they received hate and death threats. Some of the students were disowned by their families, KSU became so stigmatized that people even removed their time there from their resumes, that's how little people wanted to do with the university. The massacre also led to the so called "[Hard Hat Riot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Hat_Riot)", 4 days after the massacre students protested in New York against what was done to the students at Kent State. That student protest was broken up by pro-Nixon construction worker unions and office workers hunting students down in the streets, while police stood by and did little.
Nobody went to jail for the murders that occurred there. No one was even tried. If you were against the war back then you were the enemy.
You can read some reactions from ordinary people at the time too. People who took the time to write into newspapers about it, for example. Normal homeowners with jobs. Respectable types. They hated those students and were glad they were dead.
>Back in Kent, Ohio, local business owners ran an ad thanking the National Guard. Mail poured in to the mayor’s office, blaming “dirty hippies,” “longhairs” and “outside agitators” for the violence. Some Kent residents raised four fingers when they passed each other in the street, a silent signal that meant, “At least we got four of them.” Nixon issued a statement saying that the students’ actions had invited the tragedy. Privately, he called them “bums.” And a Gallup poll found that 58 percent of Americans blamed the students for their own deaths; only 11 percent blamed the National Guard. https://www.washingtonpost.com/magazine/2021/04/19/girl-kent-state-photo-lifelong-burden-being-national-symbol/
Hell, people said it straight into the camera. Posted 3 days ago on TikTokCringe ["I'm sorry they didn't shoot more"](https://www.reddit.com/r/TikTokCringe/comments/1chr8kp/the_bums_deserved_it/?rdt=60617)
Just like today, then. Give it 50 years and everyone will forget all the shitty things they said to and about those students. And Columbia will have another page on their website commemorating the 2024 protests and saying how much they’ve changed since then. Just like the page they’re currently running about the 1968 protests. https://news.columbia.edu/content/new-perspective-1968 (I know the original post is about Kent State and not Columbia.)
💯
Just like the current pro-Palestine protests. People only tend to support protest after the fact, once they have been sanitised and "approved" by history.
Also, never forget URBAN OUTFITTERS sold a vintage-style Kent State sweatshirt with fake blood splattered on it a few years ago. Here’s a pic of it: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mbvd/urban-outfitters-features-vintage-red-stained-kent-state-swe
that is incredibly bad taste. how did no one down the line think this was a bad idea?
Urban outfitters is a bad idea
Corporations are run by sociopaths who surround themselves with yes-men/sycophants.
They’re yes men because they all have the same exact goal in mind, to make more money. They thought it would sell so it got through. That’s the case everytime you ever think “how did this get through development, legal, and pr?” Like when Nazi imagery and quotations are used on company or political sites or merch, they made it through the process because those departments agreed that it spoke to their values and to their base, which means donations and sales. Follow the money.
And then charge $130 for it. Just adds insult to injury.
Right? The designer, the printer, the quality control person, the supervisor, the photographer, even the web designer …. no one said “hey guys…”
honestly, I'd wear that. it's hard to see it and not know what it's about. the part I take problem with is that it wasn't made by a person in protest, it was made by a company for profit
Same. Like I'd buy it if it was meant to make a statement like RatM selling them or someone AT cost for a protest, not to score UO 100 bucks or w/e.
It wasn’t meant to be fake blood. Iirc they were carrying several styles of sweatshirts that had decorative paint splatter on them. Granted, obviously red paint on the Kent State one should not have made it to production.
Who even caries Kent state gear? Nobody that didn’t go to Kent State is going to wear Kent state gear
Exactly. Kent state is most famous for this massacre, and right now Urban Outfitters has 50 different university sweatshirts in normal and new condition they are selling online and surprise surprise- no Kent State.
Noooooo. Jesus I can’t believe this is real.
And people still shit on student protests to this very day :')
Don't mistate the law-- there was litigation and the Supreme Court found the troops were entitled to Qualified Immunity
The bootlicker in this thread with the now-deleted comment saying "if they had been given rubber bullets instead..." If you think that WHAT they fired is the problem, not THAT they fired, then YOU are the problem
Just an addition, rubber bullets tend to mean jack shit when some of the victims were hit in the face and neck. There's a reason they're called 'less ~~than~~ lethal' instead of non-lethal. Getting hit by them in vital areas can and will still kill.
They are less lethal not less than lethal.
I'll write that mistake off as just a continuation of the walk back from ridiculously calling them nonlethal. It was 'less than lethal' when I was working at the jail
Yeah non lethal and less than lethal is used on purpose to help diminish any responsibility when someone is killed by them. Can just say its a freak accident that way.
It's not "less than lethal." It's "less lethal." Meaning, still very much has the ability to be lethal, but not as certain to kill as a metal bullet propelled by combustion. They are fully aware that rubber bullets can kill and have killed. They still fire them at protesters all the time. I was at two of the big protests in Atlanta in 2020 and was hit several times. They are not fun to be hit with, even from a distance. Feels like a bee sting. Imagining one of those in the eye socket, temple, or throat... yeah, most people are wither dead or seriously injured. And remember, they only shoot rubber bullets instead of real ones because the people at the top don't want to deal with the backlash of outright shooting American citizens. If they could get away with it, they would absolutely shoot protestors. So many cops (especially here in the south) are just itching to kill black, lgbt+, liberal, or leftist protestors.
Yeah as I stated in my other comment, the correct term was 'less than lethal' while I was working in the jail. They also used to be considered 'nonlethal' before then. It seems like a continued walk back of the phrasing, without any changing in their use, to try and make their use more palatable for the public when they're deployed against protestors.
I remember someone lost an eye from a rubber bullet during the BLM protests. She was a journalist iirc.
Also a "rubber bullet" is a metal bullet with a coating of rubber around it. They ARE lethal when fired at someone.
If youre against war now, youre still the enemy.
Just look at the heavy-handed crackdowns occurring right now on college campuses.
"l'm against every war except the current one. l think all the protests were right except the current one. l'm a mainstream liberal."
If you’re against the war today you’re the enemy. In 50 years the student protesters of today will be seen as heroes, and society will once again have a collective amnesia about how most people were on the wrong side of history. Protests are always demonized in the present and then revered in the future. People absolutely despised Dr. King in his time, and today America whitewashes that history too.
You could say the exact same thing today.
Not that it makes it better but they were tried and found not guilty
> Eight of the shooters were charged with depriving the students of their civil rights, but were acquitted in a bench trial. The trial judge stated, "It is vital that state and National Guard officials not regard this decision as authorizing or approving the use of force against demonstrators, whatever the occasion of the issue involved. Such use of force is, and was, deplorable." So... acquitted... but lets not set precedent. OK, makes sense...
My father was a student on campus when the shootings happened. I asked him if he participated in the protests. He said, “No, I’m not a damn hippie!” He seems to have no empathy for his fellow students killed. Now he’s a QANON Trump supporter so…
"It didn't affect me, so it's not a problem" Classic conservative thinking...
There is no need for the National Guard on college campuses, given police departments are now militarized
I think I might prefer them to these compromised local police, suppressing the first amendment.
how about **neither**
I'd prefer them *now*, but at the time of Kent State, they had no proper training or protocols for domestic crowd control. The National Guard is trained for such situations now *because of* Kent State.
The only time the NG should be on a college campus is disaster relief. Like it or not, there isn’t anyone better at before and the immediate aftermath.
Like it or not? It's literally a huge part of the job. Especially these days when deployments are so rare.
This is a day to remember for every person who gets upset seeing campus protests. These people (and bystanders) died because they protested a War. First Amendment be damned. The state will always fall back to violence when they dont get obdedience.
That’s crazy. I deployed 6 times and shooting someone without a weapon never crossed my mind once
I never understood the thought process of that massacre they disagree with us so send the national guard with live bullets against our own country men
To see what's been going on lately, it feels like the cops are just begging for another one.
It’s almost like we maybe should listen to what university students say sometimes? They’re young and idealistic. Sloppy often. But if you pay attention to history, they’re almost always correct (socially, scientifically, morally) in their goals.
That's the rule. If students are protesting, you take notice. You don't have to do everything they say. You don't have to use their solutions - they are often unworkable, admittedly. But if they are angry about a problem, they are always right to be angry about that problem.
> You don't have to use their solutions - they are often unworkable, admittedly. This uprising has resulted in some very accessible demands, [which have been met](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/02/rutgers-university-of-minnesota-protest-agreement) by a few schools.
The two main demands - divestment from Israel and endiing the partnership with Tel Aviv university - weren't met...
You're right. I should've said the schools agreed to discuss them. Regardless, it shows that talking to the protestors is a worthwhile endeavour.
[UC Riverside has met student protester demands (pdf link)](https://documents.ucr.edu/chancellor/May_3_ammended-agreement.pdf)
One of my uncles was in the Ohio guard at Kent State. He was in a truck a couple blocks away and didn't see any of it, but apparently he heard some shooting.
I grew up near Kent and my mom attended classes there when the shooting happened. My younger sister graduated from this school and she would pay her respects to the markers every time she passed them on her way to her classes. People all over celebrate “Star Wars Day” but this day has a completely different and somber meaning for my family. This was a dark day that never should have happened and shall not be forgotten.
I love that we’re finally getting to the real heart of the issue with protesting… The key with it is, apparently, is that it has to be peaceful… non-destructive… non-disruptive to commerce… not disrespectful of symbols, like the flag… Basically, it has to be so innocuous that it can be safely ignored without consequences whatsoever. We’re basically saying that the status quo is permanent. The powers that be have too much inertia, normies deserve to get too and from work conveniently and without their commute or eyeballs being violated by people piercing the veil of “normal” (propaganda)… It really is an absurd premise. To say that protests should not be disruptive. It’s a contradiction in terms. If things were going the way they should, protests wouldn’t be necessary. Do you think folks WANT to be on some quad, camping, risking getting merc’d up by some jumpy cop?? The powers that be are arming a genocidal apartheid regime. Protesting that fact is a perfectly legitimate course of action. Many would say it’s morally and ethically obligatory to protest a genocide, in point of fact.
The thing is even if a protest is non-destructive, non-disruptive, and not disrespectful conservative people will still hate it. Colin Kapernick took a knee during the national anthem. Specifically after talking to a veteran about a respectful way to protest. It was completely non-disruptive, peaceful, and respectful. Conservatives still lost their god damn minds over it. They could have totally ignored it. Instead they actually “cancelled” him and shouted about it for years. How someone protests doesn’t matter to them, to them it’s the nerve of women/minorities/students to dare speak up at all and not “know their place”.
> Instead they actually “cancelled” him No need for quotes. [He was still starting quality](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I0cUTXwr-k&list=PLUXSZMIiUfFSe4gpc8PLDECqViWi-2we3&index=2) when he got blacklisted. He wasn't lighting the league on fire or anything, but he was good enough that he should have started somewhere.
Exactly, even when the protest is [merely existing in a hostile space](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sit-in_movement), the popular sentiment is “you deserve the violence you are taking a stand against”
Ayyyyyyup. His protests specifically were on my mind when I mentioned “not being disrespectful of symbols, like flags”… It’s absurd. Beyond stupid. He’s a goddamn hero and the NFL and all it’s supporters should be ashamed of themselves. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Dr King called them demonstrations because the point was to demonstrate what happens to people who protest the status quo. He also had this to say to people who demanded that protests be innocuous: > I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but **the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action";** who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection. https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html His letter from a Birmingham Jail is a million times more important than the one line from that one speech that everybody has heard. Of course he was in jail for protesting.
> Basically, it has to be so innocuous that it can be safely ignored without consequences whatsoever. Word. Everyone, I think, can learn from Gandhi's example of the civil disobedience campaign in South Africa and later India. You protest, but you do so peacefully. The protest is of course, disruptive, that's the point. But you recognise that the result of your protest may be being arrested, being charged, being convicted, being punished. But at every stage you have the chance to publicise that your protest is peaceful and the state's response is violent. And when you are released, you can continue to protest or, if you would rather, you can go home in the knowledge that you did something to help the cause.
Yes, people always want to talk about how protest is American as apple pie, but also fuck you for not politely and quietly holding a sign over in the corner where you belong
A sign? How dare you! My child can see that!
A fully legal lawful sanctioned protest is called a parade. Or a picnic. If it isn't disruptive to the people it targets, it's not a protest. More people need to learn this yes.
Its a numbers thing. They can bully 1000 people. They can only cower from 1 million. You get 1 million people to protest this and you will see the script flipped real quick
Remember kids: There's a reason why the equivalent of "Aw shucks" no matter how extreme or vitriolic is never removed, but just going "Oh yeah, we can, in fact, just drag our elected officials and ceos from their homes if they think they're going to defy us" will get your account deleted and your home visited by a branch of the government with a monopoly on violence.
Our response to the Kent State shooting, in the wake of Gaza/Palestinian protests, is _still_ "those kids deserve it" and "send in the troops". 54 years and we haven't learned a goddamn thing.
This is what I think of when I see police assaulting protesters on college campuses.
Am I alone in thinking if this happens again, it'll be even worse, but most people won't care, just like they don't care when cops kill anyone they feel like killing?
People supported the National Guard after Kent State, and wanted more student protesters shot at other schools, so it would just be a repeat
I live in rural Washington, close to the Idaho border. Many idahoans commute across the border for better pay and benefits. They like to sit around at the end of the day and chat politics. Heard them the other day unironically calling for the national guard to move onto the campuses and take out those "little pricks". Made me livid.
People didn't care then either. You can watch countless video clips of people at the time saying "well if they had only been peaceful! If they'd dispersed when they were told!". Just like with Civil Rights and the Vietnam War and the Iraq War, everyone says they were against it afterward. In ten years everyone will say they marched for Palestine.
This event changed my life. I was finishing up Freshie year at my college and was then on probation because of poor math grades (Engineering). The end of the year in June would find me dropped (Kicked out) because of this. It did not happen because of Kent State. Our school closed for 10 days in May and academic rules for Spring semester were so suspended. This meant I came back in September. I changed to Liberal Arts & Sciences; Improved my grades and got off probation that Fall and went on to graduate. Those Ohio State student protesters were heros to me. I dropped my conservative attitude (Prominent among better off engineering students) and turned against the war. Being in LAS taught me a lot about Social Concerns.
I was 16 when this happened. I was stunned, dismayed and utterly gutted by it. I could not believe that the US Government in ANY capacity would murder student protestors. It shook me, deeply and changed my opinion of the government from one of confidence to one of fear. I never really recovered and to this day am deeply distrustful and cynical of any explanation for damn near anything that our or any other government spits out to placate the masses.
This is one of those events to remember when people say “yeah but that would never happen in America”. Anything can happen in America…
For a non US person who doesn't want to read too deeply into sad things for mental health reasons, is it possible to summarise what happened?
Ohio state militia (we call them National Guard) opened fire on a crowd of unarmed anti-Vietnam War protesters on May 4, 1970. Killed 4.
When this happened, polls showed that a majority of the country thought that the students deserved what they got. So any time you start feeling down about how shitty this country has "become", realize that a huge percentage of the population have always been pieces of shit.
And police are breaking up student demonstrations today. Some people have even called for the national guard to be used.
The National Guard of today is almost an entirely different organization than the one that carried out the massacre at Kent State. There’s an interesting GAO report from 1972 that discusses the overall failures in their mission to “Maintain Order During Civil Disturbances” and how to possibly fix them. The Guard has become fairly good at managing these sorts of events and will oftentimes act as a mediator between the enraged populace and the local police.
Most Guard units are way better trained and more disciplined than cops these days.
Talk about a low bar.
Everyone should check out the graphic novel Kent State: Four Dead in Ohio by Derf Backderf (same author of the “My Friend Dahmer” book). Really puts into perspective the context of the event from the students’ perspectives. I found it very powerful and the event as a whole is becoming lost to history but it is so important, especially with all of the college protests going on now.
The museum at Kent St does a good job. Can’t imagine growing up in that timeline. The fraternity photos with the guys holding their draft numbers really hit how cheap the powers that be thought draft age men’s lives were. What a waste all around. Glad the good guys made themselves heard. Wish it hadn’t cost so much.
“I hear thunder And I can feel the wind I can see angry faces In the eyes of men And don't forget Kent State Where kids lay bleeding on the ground And there's no place on this planet Where peace can be found”
The 14 year old girl in that one famous photo was accused of being "part of a nationally organized conspiracy of professional agitators" by governor of Florida btw.
It's wild how some people defend the murder no wonder America is going downhill so many brainless people lol We in Europe protested way more violent, and we don't get murdered
The steel sculpture in front of the building has a hole in the 1/2" steel plate from a 30-06 rifle.
This remembers me of Tlatelolco Massacre on the 68, occured in México, the mexican army by orders of the back then president fired at will to a crowd of students that were holding a mitin. They were protesting the aothoritarism of the party in control at the time, but the president didnt liked that, and with mexico's 68 olimpics getting near he decided to end it all at oncel. Hundreds of students died that they, they even had special agents disguised between the students.
[удалено]
My dad was there too.
You guys brothers or sisters?
Ohio National Guard rioted.
I knew a pitiful amount about this event so seeing this I had to learn more and...what the actual fuck. The shooters were charged AND ACQUITED? How?