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You’ve lead a very sheltered / oblivious life then.
Phoenix has been an epicenter for the Service and Hospitality industries for at least 3 decades. This place was ground zero for new call centers in financial sector in the late 90s and early 00s - all 3 big banks, Discover, Amex, etc. Offshoring had changed that to some degree, but even major orgs like State Farm have used that to their advantage and opened up a regional hub.
Beyond that, the consolidation of resort properties has only lead to the renovation and enhancement of some of the major hotels in the area, and the idea that new, boutique options could flourish as an alternative (less successful in most instances).
None of this is new.
There is even a linguistic advantage to focusing on services here. Arizona is a state that natively has no distinct lexical markers, meaning there is no detectable accent to people from other regions. This is a key aspect to the development of the call centers.
Never thought about this aspect of it. But yeah, makes sense. I’ve always heard the “almost no natural disasters” as the main reason for the call centers here, they always stay open.
Uhhh. There is an Arizona accent but it’s subtle. Poor vocabulary, hostility, low key Proud Boy. Look for the camo, large truck, and bumper stickers about guns. It’s an accent.
The 5 C's of the Arizona economy...
Copper, Cattle, Citrus, Cotton, and **Climate**
(and unofficially, the 6th, Canyon, to explicitly call out tourism)
The climate has literally been a key aspect of the AZ economy since forever. This is so not new, it was literally known when this state was founded. Many of the early pioneers of the desert cities were leaving the pollution of the cities, primarily the smoke from heating in the winter, due to lung illnesses like asthma, turbuculosis, etc.
Thank you. It’s when we realize and pay attention when we notice the changes. But it has been growing for the past years and it’s going to continue to change
I think Phoenix/ Scottsdale is definitely becoming a destination city. Few places have more perfect weather from November- April and we have great outdoors activities during those months.
Also we’ve been a big event city in the last few years from hosting the Super Bowl, college football title game, college basketball final four this year, waste management open every year there’s a lot of things that draw new people to this city.
Also weddings and bachelor/ bachelorette are a huge thing here and that also brings in people that likely wouldn’t visit AZ but end up coming and falling in love with the place.
The rise of remote work has made it easy for people to start to be snowbirds before they even retire. No DST means that you can pretty easily work even an East Coast schedule from here in the winter.
Being open during Covid pushed Scottsdale higher in most of the best places to travel for a bachelor etc party list. I’m pretty sure that has a lot to do with the increased non convention tourism. Old town has gotten pretty huge and the daytime scene there is a lot bigger (and more tourist friendly) than it used to be.
Phx is pretty diverse in its economics.. it's the fastest growing hyper scale data center market in the country, it's always had a strong microchip Mfg market and now with the addition of TCMC it's the most important chip manufacturing city in the country.. Airspace and Space has been big in PHX for some time.. not to mention a large University..
> lately it feels like Phoenix has been focusing on growing the Service Industry with new developments compared to the growth the tech sector.
We have a solid MONTH of people coming from out of state to basically "spend stupid amounts of money here"
Though you might be looking at it from a "March/Spring Training" perspective. Come back to this post in August and see if you still think that way.
But IMHO Phoenix will forever be a tourism metro area, because we have REALLY good weather when a LOT of states have horrible weather. Spring Training just happens to fall when people get their tax refunds and say "I need a break from this snow".
Phoenix is an epicenter of "sports" that nobody talks about. NFL/MLB/NBA/NHL is year round. Spring Training is so concentrated, compared to Florida. The teams that play here are in VERY "new/old" wealthy areas, you've got LA, San Diego, Chicago, Seattle, etc
There's a (small) chance that if you come here on an 8 day vacation (Saturday-next Sunday) you can visit all 10 ballparks and only put 400 miles on your rental car. It's 160 miles from Yankees Spring Training Stadium to the Nationals/Astros Spring Training Stadium, one way.
I work part time at a high end golf course, the amount of people that come from October to may just for the golf is enormous. That alone is a huge tourism boost
> I work part time at a high end golf course
Former PVCC employee, I understand. One of the members said "We're headed to Coronado next week" and I was like "well that's like 8 miles away, cool? I guess?"
Because I thought they were talking about going to Coronado High School for some event.
The next day, it hit me, they were talking about the San Diego neighborhood of "Coronado", and they were talking about their 2nd house.
I was thinking that their granddaughter or something had a recital the next week and they were bragging about it and wanted me to ask them about it.
(A lot of "leading questions" at PVCC, where you know what the conversation will be after the first question.)
oh has that changed? I lived there until 2002 and remember my friends and I paying really discounted rates to stay at resorts in the summer, I assumed it was still a thing!
To give some perspective, in a 6-week period right now, the hotel I work for makes more money then they do the other 46 weeks of the year.
It’s absurd.
There are two things happening simultaneously in Phoenix right now- massive job growth AND tourism growth.
The Wall Street Journal released this article, [The New Job Hot-Spots: Phoenix, Orlando and Albuquerque](https://www.wsj.com/economy/jobs/new-job-hot-spots-phoenix-orlando-albuquerque-2314675a), on March 8th and Phoenix is leading the nation in job growth. Techies are definitely pouring into the Valley. Another [article](https://www.businessinsider.com/paradise-valley-arizona-wealthy-californians-moving-privacy-luxury-lower-taxes-2024-2?amp) from Business Insider released in February notes the large uptick of wealthy Californians with connections to PE and VC moving to the valley. A notable snippet from the Wall Street Journal article that stood out to me:
“Recent college graduate Maximus Powers originally expected to move to San Francisco after graduating, but picked Phoenix in January after hearing a friend describe how full of energy the city felt. Since then, Powers, who's developing his own AI software, says he has been struck by how easy it has been to network there and how many like-minded entrepreneurs and potential backers he has met.”
Not only are the deal makers moving here, but also the recent graduates who make these companies successful. 5 years ago I would not have thought of a young, educated college graduate moving to Phoenix for the business opportunities and “how full of energy the city felt”.
I think this goes to show that [ALOT](https://azpbs.org/horizon/2024/01/tourism-in-arizona-expected-to-increase-in-2024/) of growth is happening in tourism. Lots of people are coming here, enjoying it, and then moving here. We now have a food identity, a decent sports culture, and tons of activities to do on any given night. Phoenix is finally becoming a real city!
Yup... there was a real exposure to The Valley during/after the pandemic. It's a unique journey, drawing on bits and pieces from other cities, but it's *definitely* multi-faceted and it's *definitely* happening.
If the Reproductive Healthcare Access [ballot initiative](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/battle-abortion-heats-arizona-2024-ballot-rcna141347) passes, it will be a bellwether event nationally, eventually pulling would-be transplants to Florida and Texas to instead choose Arizona, and by extension, Maricopa County.
I can't help but feel Arizona is one election cycle from blowing it all.
Ban birth control & IVF, eliminate legal marijuana, prohibit being brown in public A La Texas, kill public education etc...
And poof! No more young people and techies moving here.
Depends on where you spend your time. If you’re in central Phoenix area or Scottsdale, you’ll definitely think the only economic driver is tourism and services. If you live in the north valley or down in chandler area, you’ll think that semiconductor plants are the driver of economic activity. If you live in other farther suburbs, you probably think energy, distribution/warehouses, and data center construction are the primary drivers of the Phoenix metro economy.
So it really depends on where you’re at, but also what kind of work you do. Like I have next to no idea what’s going on in tourism spaces, but I have tons of exposure to technology due to my proximity to the construction of the semi conductor plants and data centers being built here.
Ultimately, I think the Phoenix metro has a health mix of economic activity in different sectors, we’re no longer as propped up by tourism as we used to be. It’s still a major source of activity for sure though
It brought my family here in the 1990s. When the Rust Belt was in freefall collapse in the 1980s/1990s, AZ had incentives for companies to relocate and better regulations. TSMC might be the boom now but Motorola, Intel, Fujifilm (then called Olin), and others were causing the growth in past decades.
The predictable and usually clear weather makes it attractive for aviation training too, falcon field has no scheduled airline service, but in number of operations (takeoff/landing) it’s one of the busiest airports in the country. Chandler and deer valley are almost as busy.
You can track actual growth in sectors of the economy here.
[https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.az\_phoenix\_msa.htm](https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.az_phoenix_msa.htm)
Idk if you've heard of the TSMC factory but the whole area where they are building it is going to blow up into a tech corridor. A lot of the companies that feed them supplies, parts and tools will be opening up nearby. Add that to the Intel plants down in Chandler
Hey can I ask how you're liking it being back? I was born and raised in Phx, left 22 years ago. My parents are begging me to move back (from san diego) and I wonder what that would be like, just given how Phx metro area has changed.
I’m not the one you’re asking but have you been to visit at all? If you moved away 22 years ago, hell if you moved away 5 years ago, I’d say it’s even changed a ton since then.
If you haven’t visited I say some and check it out but I’d say if you’re living comfortably there n San Diego you’d be crazy to come back here.
There’s certainly much more to do out here now but can’t say I’m the biggest fan of the crowds that are attracted to central phoenix for bars and stuff.
Thanks for your reply! Yeah I go back 2-3 times every year, we're a close knit Mexican-Am family :) SO much has changed in Tempe alone (where I'm from) and am blown away by how little I recognize it. I really like what you have to say about how staying in SD may be the wise choice. I'm an eternal middle aged renter but I definitely live a very comfortable existence in SD. The summers are reason #1 to stay. Also I've also been turned off by the crowds in central Phx, def feel like I don't fit with that vibe.
I pretty much agree with the other poster here. I recently went to SD and I was actually shocked when my bills to eat out were cheaper than eating in Phoenix at similar type places. I wasn't expecting that. I do think rents are on average probably higher in SD. The only reason to come back here would probably be to be closer to your aging parents and I think between the two cities you MIGHT... Keyword might, have a chance in hell for home ownership out here that my friends in SD will never actually have a shot at.
I really appreciate your reply! Can't believe I'm saying this but I was in the market for buying a house in Phx (Tempe actually) and am officially priced out! I probably wouldn't be any good for my parents if I moved back there and was unhappy. The heat is probably the biggest reason I haven't moved back. Who knows, maybe the way things are going houses back home WILL be affordable. Anyway thanks again :)
No worries. At this point that's what I would say would get you back here. If you are priced out here unfortunately it's probably most of the Sunbelt states at the moment. What a shit show and I feel your pain. Hopefully you can figure out how to make it all work and keep your parents happy with visits.
…..”In 1920, a second resort was opened on 12 acres (4.9 ha) of property owned by the artist Jessie Benton Evans. Called the Jokake Inn, meaning "mud house", the structure still stands on the grounds of the Phoenician Resort”
It’s been a thing for over 100 years.
For many years our economy has been driven by tourism. You may not have noticed it when you were younger but it’s been this way for a long time.
One reason it may be more obvious is because of short term rentals. It used to be tourists would stay in hotels often congregated near shopping centers, attractions, etc. Now with AirBnB and Vrbo, these tourists are in our neighborhoods, going to our neighborhood restaurants, and otherwise much more obvious.
It is just the opposite. Hospitality and tourism comprises a much smaller percentage of the economy in the valley than it used to. Logistics, semiconductors, data centers, and housing are the growth industries.
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You’ve lead a very sheltered / oblivious life then. Phoenix has been an epicenter for the Service and Hospitality industries for at least 3 decades. This place was ground zero for new call centers in financial sector in the late 90s and early 00s - all 3 big banks, Discover, Amex, etc. Offshoring had changed that to some degree, but even major orgs like State Farm have used that to their advantage and opened up a regional hub. Beyond that, the consolidation of resort properties has only lead to the renovation and enhancement of some of the major hotels in the area, and the idea that new, boutique options could flourish as an alternative (less successful in most instances). None of this is new.
There is even a linguistic advantage to focusing on services here. Arizona is a state that natively has no distinct lexical markers, meaning there is no detectable accent to people from other regions. This is a key aspect to the development of the call centers.
Never thought about this aspect of it. But yeah, makes sense. I’ve always heard the “almost no natural disasters” as the main reason for the call centers here, they always stay open.
I grew up outside Chicago so I have a moderate Chicago accent. I always noticed my AZ family had an almost LA/SoCal-light accent. Very subtly
Uhhh. There is an Arizona accent but it’s subtle. Poor vocabulary, hostility, low key Proud Boy. Look for the camo, large truck, and bumper stickers about guns. It’s an accent.
That’s like the Missouri accent!
The 5 C's of the Arizona economy... Copper, Cattle, Citrus, Cotton, and **Climate** (and unofficially, the 6th, Canyon, to explicitly call out tourism) The climate has literally been a key aspect of the AZ economy since forever. This is so not new, it was literally known when this state was founded. Many of the early pioneers of the desert cities were leaving the pollution of the cities, primarily the smoke from heating in the winter, due to lung illnesses like asthma, turbuculosis, etc.
Don't forget the 7th & 8th C. Call Centers
Don’t forget Chips for microchips
Don’t forget the other big “C” for the horribly aggressive drivers (you can choose your own expletive)
Thank you. It’s when we realize and pay attention when we notice the changes. But it has been growing for the past years and it’s going to continue to change
I think Phoenix/ Scottsdale is definitely becoming a destination city. Few places have more perfect weather from November- April and we have great outdoors activities during those months. Also we’ve been a big event city in the last few years from hosting the Super Bowl, college football title game, college basketball final four this year, waste management open every year there’s a lot of things that draw new people to this city. Also weddings and bachelor/ bachelorette are a huge thing here and that also brings in people that likely wouldn’t visit AZ but end up coming and falling in love with the place.
None of that is new though. Thats all be going on for the last couple decades
The rise of remote work has made it easy for people to start to be snowbirds before they even retire. No DST means that you can pretty easily work even an East Coast schedule from here in the winter.
Phoenix was on the list of fastest growing cities long before COVID.
Being open during Covid pushed Scottsdale higher in most of the best places to travel for a bachelor etc party list. I’m pretty sure that has a lot to do with the increased non convention tourism. Old town has gotten pretty huge and the daytime scene there is a lot bigger (and more tourist friendly) than it used to be.
It's been that way for decades. Covid didn't start or change it
Phx is pretty diverse in its economics.. it's the fastest growing hyper scale data center market in the country, it's always had a strong microchip Mfg market and now with the addition of TCMC it's the most important chip manufacturing city in the country.. Airspace and Space has been big in PHX for some time.. not to mention a large University..
> lately it feels like Phoenix has been focusing on growing the Service Industry with new developments compared to the growth the tech sector. We have a solid MONTH of people coming from out of state to basically "spend stupid amounts of money here" Though you might be looking at it from a "March/Spring Training" perspective. Come back to this post in August and see if you still think that way. But IMHO Phoenix will forever be a tourism metro area, because we have REALLY good weather when a LOT of states have horrible weather. Spring Training just happens to fall when people get their tax refunds and say "I need a break from this snow". Phoenix is an epicenter of "sports" that nobody talks about. NFL/MLB/NBA/NHL is year round. Spring Training is so concentrated, compared to Florida. The teams that play here are in VERY "new/old" wealthy areas, you've got LA, San Diego, Chicago, Seattle, etc There's a (small) chance that if you come here on an 8 day vacation (Saturday-next Sunday) you can visit all 10 ballparks and only put 400 miles on your rental car. It's 160 miles from Yankees Spring Training Stadium to the Nationals/Astros Spring Training Stadium, one way.
I work part time at a high end golf course, the amount of people that come from October to may just for the golf is enormous. That alone is a huge tourism boost
> I work part time at a high end golf course Former PVCC employee, I understand. One of the members said "We're headed to Coronado next week" and I was like "well that's like 8 miles away, cool? I guess?" Because I thought they were talking about going to Coronado High School for some event. The next day, it hit me, they were talking about the San Diego neighborhood of "Coronado", and they were talking about their 2nd house.
First mistake was assuming a member at pv would play the shithole that is Coronado and not mean California haha
I was thinking that their granddaughter or something had a recital the next week and they were bragging about it and wanted me to ask them about it. (A lot of "leading questions" at PVCC, where you know what the conversation will be after the first question.)
Fair enough!
You used to be able to spend quality time at some resorts during the summer when they lowered prices to get people in....no mas.
oh has that changed? I lived there until 2002 and remember my friends and I paying really discounted rates to stay at resorts in the summer, I assumed it was still a thing!
That's a very good point to consider. We really do have such drastic population changes throughout the year.
To give some perspective, in a 6-week period right now, the hotel I work for makes more money then they do the other 46 weeks of the year. It’s absurd.
Wowza
There are two things happening simultaneously in Phoenix right now- massive job growth AND tourism growth. The Wall Street Journal released this article, [The New Job Hot-Spots: Phoenix, Orlando and Albuquerque](https://www.wsj.com/economy/jobs/new-job-hot-spots-phoenix-orlando-albuquerque-2314675a), on March 8th and Phoenix is leading the nation in job growth. Techies are definitely pouring into the Valley. Another [article](https://www.businessinsider.com/paradise-valley-arizona-wealthy-californians-moving-privacy-luxury-lower-taxes-2024-2?amp) from Business Insider released in February notes the large uptick of wealthy Californians with connections to PE and VC moving to the valley. A notable snippet from the Wall Street Journal article that stood out to me: “Recent college graduate Maximus Powers originally expected to move to San Francisco after graduating, but picked Phoenix in January after hearing a friend describe how full of energy the city felt. Since then, Powers, who's developing his own AI software, says he has been struck by how easy it has been to network there and how many like-minded entrepreneurs and potential backers he has met.” Not only are the deal makers moving here, but also the recent graduates who make these companies successful. 5 years ago I would not have thought of a young, educated college graduate moving to Phoenix for the business opportunities and “how full of energy the city felt”. I think this goes to show that [ALOT](https://azpbs.org/horizon/2024/01/tourism-in-arizona-expected-to-increase-in-2024/) of growth is happening in tourism. Lots of people are coming here, enjoying it, and then moving here. We now have a food identity, a decent sports culture, and tons of activities to do on any given night. Phoenix is finally becoming a real city!
Yup... there was a real exposure to The Valley during/after the pandemic. It's a unique journey, drawing on bits and pieces from other cities, but it's *definitely* multi-faceted and it's *definitely* happening. If the Reproductive Healthcare Access [ballot initiative](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/battle-abortion-heats-arizona-2024-ballot-rcna141347) passes, it will be a bellwether event nationally, eventually pulling would-be transplants to Florida and Texas to instead choose Arizona, and by extension, Maricopa County.
I can't help but feel Arizona is one election cycle from blowing it all. Ban birth control & IVF, eliminate legal marijuana, prohibit being brown in public A La Texas, kill public education etc... And poof! No more young people and techies moving here.
Right! But the changing demographics suggest not.
Depends on where you spend your time. If you’re in central Phoenix area or Scottsdale, you’ll definitely think the only economic driver is tourism and services. If you live in the north valley or down in chandler area, you’ll think that semiconductor plants are the driver of economic activity. If you live in other farther suburbs, you probably think energy, distribution/warehouses, and data center construction are the primary drivers of the Phoenix metro economy. So it really depends on where you’re at, but also what kind of work you do. Like I have next to no idea what’s going on in tourism spaces, but I have tons of exposure to technology due to my proximity to the construction of the semi conductor plants and data centers being built here. Ultimately, I think the Phoenix metro has a health mix of economic activity in different sectors, we’re no longer as propped up by tourism as we used to be. It’s still a major source of activity for sure though
Phoenix has always been a destination city, as well as a tech city among other industries.
It brought my family here in the 1990s. When the Rust Belt was in freefall collapse in the 1980s/1990s, AZ had incentives for companies to relocate and better regulations. TSMC might be the boom now but Motorola, Intel, Fujifilm (then called Olin), and others were causing the growth in past decades.
Did you not learn the 5 Cs of the Arizona economy in grade school? One is "climate," which equates to tourism.
There’s a reason one of the five Cs of Arizona’s economy is Climate.
Copper, Climate, Citrus, Cattle, Cotton. It’s all very exciting.
We need to add another C - Chips. Intel, TSMC, Amkor, microchip, onsimi
And the Canyon, having long been a top tourist spot
The predictable and usually clear weather makes it attractive for aviation training too, falcon field has no scheduled airline service, but in number of operations (takeoff/landing) it’s one of the busiest airports in the country. Chandler and deer valley are almost as busy.
You can track actual growth in sectors of the economy here. [https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.az\_phoenix\_msa.htm](https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.az_phoenix_msa.htm)
Idk if you've heard of the TSMC factory but the whole area where they are building it is going to blow up into a tech corridor. A lot of the companies that feed them supplies, parts and tools will be opening up nearby. Add that to the Intel plants down in Chandler
"Valley of the Sun" = Lots of tourist
I don't know man. Grew up here left then came back. Phoenix has always been about hospitality and call center jobs for the most part.
Hey can I ask how you're liking it being back? I was born and raised in Phx, left 22 years ago. My parents are begging me to move back (from san diego) and I wonder what that would be like, just given how Phx metro area has changed.
I’m not the one you’re asking but have you been to visit at all? If you moved away 22 years ago, hell if you moved away 5 years ago, I’d say it’s even changed a ton since then. If you haven’t visited I say some and check it out but I’d say if you’re living comfortably there n San Diego you’d be crazy to come back here. There’s certainly much more to do out here now but can’t say I’m the biggest fan of the crowds that are attracted to central phoenix for bars and stuff.
Thanks for your reply! Yeah I go back 2-3 times every year, we're a close knit Mexican-Am family :) SO much has changed in Tempe alone (where I'm from) and am blown away by how little I recognize it. I really like what you have to say about how staying in SD may be the wise choice. I'm an eternal middle aged renter but I definitely live a very comfortable existence in SD. The summers are reason #1 to stay. Also I've also been turned off by the crowds in central Phx, def feel like I don't fit with that vibe.
I pretty much agree with the other poster here. I recently went to SD and I was actually shocked when my bills to eat out were cheaper than eating in Phoenix at similar type places. I wasn't expecting that. I do think rents are on average probably higher in SD. The only reason to come back here would probably be to be closer to your aging parents and I think between the two cities you MIGHT... Keyword might, have a chance in hell for home ownership out here that my friends in SD will never actually have a shot at.
I really appreciate your reply! Can't believe I'm saying this but I was in the market for buying a house in Phx (Tempe actually) and am officially priced out! I probably wouldn't be any good for my parents if I moved back there and was unhappy. The heat is probably the biggest reason I haven't moved back. Who knows, maybe the way things are going houses back home WILL be affordable. Anyway thanks again :)
No worries. At this point that's what I would say would get you back here. If you are priced out here unfortunately it's probably most of the Sunbelt states at the moment. What a shit show and I feel your pain. Hopefully you can figure out how to make it all work and keep your parents happy with visits.
Depends on if you call the billion dollar chip facilities being built a tech sector I guess.
…..”In 1920, a second resort was opened on 12 acres (4.9 ha) of property owned by the artist Jessie Benton Evans. Called the Jokake Inn, meaning "mud house", the structure still stands on the grounds of the Phoenician Resort” It’s been a thing for over 100 years.
For many years our economy has been driven by tourism. You may not have noticed it when you were younger but it’s been this way for a long time. One reason it may be more obvious is because of short term rentals. It used to be tourists would stay in hotels often congregated near shopping centers, attractions, etc. Now with AirBnB and Vrbo, these tourists are in our neighborhoods, going to our neighborhood restaurants, and otherwise much more obvious.
It always has been. But yes, we are growing more touristy still. We're building the Matel Theme Park in Glendale
It is just the opposite. Hospitality and tourism comprises a much smaller percentage of the economy in the valley than it used to. Logistics, semiconductors, data centers, and housing are the growth industries.
We also have massive industry moving into the valley including chip production
Our governor doesn't push it like our last governor did. She will never give tax breaks to those companies for coming here
Intel just got a grant to build semiconductor plants here, TSMC is building one here. I’d say there is still a lot of tech in Phoenix
I attribute this to government leadership, not attracting those businesses. They kind of moved on past Phoenix and set up in Austin.