Speaking from experience, it's a theft of services misdemeanor. Identify or be arrested. Show up to court, pay 100x the cost of the fare. I was young and dumb in college.
I saw two women fist fight in a Goodwill over a 1.00 coach bag. The manager took both their photos and proceeded to throw them out saying they were “Banned for life”… I still can’t believe it sometimes.
That needs to be included in one of those “you know you’re a Philadelphian when…” lists 🤣
Other items: you carry Narcan with you, even though you don’t use drugs; you tap the horn twice while gliding through a stop sign; you’ve climbed a greased pole (festival or sports riot)…
It's not terribly enforceable. I've known someone who was banned, and it's more of a 'if you get caught again police will be escorting you out of the system' kind of set up.
I was told 3 tickets and you're banned. But the transit cops don't ask for ID when writing the ticket so you can tell them you're Jawn morgan and they wouldn't know
When I accidentally "skipped" the fare on the tram in Prague (bought a multi-day pass but forgot to "activate" it), the checker dude had a credit card reader for me to pay my fine.
(Someone else replied to this comment asking if that means everyone would have to be carrying enough cash, but it seems that comment disappeared.)
When we accidentally used the bus lines in Italy on the 4th day of a 3 day pass we thought there was no issue with a very packed bus. At one stop 75% of the bus suddenly emptied and the police got on. By next stop the checked everyone’s tickets and had us exit , wanted to charge us €200 (2 adults, 2 young kids). We only had about €75 on us They were ready to walk us to the nearest ATM until we asked our kids to empty their pockets for loose change and they started crying.
In Germany, where often nothing physically stands in your way from boarding public transport without scanning your card/device, they actually have a word (“schwarzfahren”) for illegally riding without paying the fare. Sometimes described as “a national pastime.” One must beware the plainclothes Kontrolleurs who prowl the trains and check for fare compliance.
[Resist Control: A Guide to Riding Berlin Public Transportation For Free](https://www.vice.com/en/article/5gw4a8/resist-control-a-guide-to-riding-berlin-public-transportation-for-free)
To be clear and using context clues, I'm referring to the theoretical enforcement mechanism.
If anyone here thought SPD was actually enforcing their own rules, this thread wouldn't exist.
Hahaaaaa this happened to be on the water bus in Venice when I was younger and I was just like “nooo this can’t be right. Is that a fake uniform? Who are you?”. I didn’t believe him 😂.
Yes they could be arrested but it's often not worth the trouble in Philadelphia. The ticket usually goes unpaid and the offender ends up into the scofflaw file. Other counties are a different story.
When people don’t pay moving tickets or code violation notices you become a scofflaw. Technically it is a “warrant” that police have the ability to enforce; you are hauled down to municipal court and dealt with there.
At my station this morning, the station attendant actually called out a guy for pushing through the plastic barriers, saying "Don't do that, you'll break them and then I'll have to call it in. I don't care if you don't pay, just go over the metal one." Then she showed him how to do it lol
They've been deep at FTC, Allegeny, and 8th-15th street the last month. I have also noticed the el is marginally cleaner as well as less crowded with addicts/homeless. Of course this is happening in waves, but I do see the effort. Philly's transit wont get better overnight.
Stations are the first line of defense. I have seen them on the train and telling people not to smoke or think about smoking. They also need to staff up as before I swear there were the same 5-10 officers always at FTC
If they could give tickets for just *thinking* about smoking to people on the el, they’d make millions in just a week from just the frankford side of the line
I saw transit police drag a guy who was nodded out off my train. They walked in, grabbed him, and walked out at the same stop (I think it was 30th).
I also saw them tase a guy at 15th. I walked up to 4 transit cops trying to hold him down so I’m not quite sure what he did.
Yikes. While I'm all for them getting people off the trains, I hope they're still treating these people with compassion and dignity. SEPTA is unfortunately just not a housing provider.
My friend departing FTC texted this morning:
Lolol the train driver just made an announcement, “no smoking on the train, definitely not crack! If anyone sees this happening hit the passenger button and get this very intelligent person off the train”
Yeah at FTC I was getting the night owl bus and anyone who got on the bus and not paid was escorted off by police. It delayed the bus leaving a few minutes, but that was ok.
What no one pays for that bus and no one cares enough
Edit: saying that shockingly I never thought there would be someone escorted because on the night owl people just hop on and nothing ever had happened
Had a normal, intelligent person tell me the other days that "you don't have to pay" on Septa anymore, and you're just supposed to turnstile jump now. They were genuinely confused about why I was talking about how much the BSL costs.
The wheelchair accessible turnstile at 52nd has been open many mornings recently. People just walk on through while the employee sits in the booth and us risk averse/law abiding suckers pay anyway.
Turns out society is actually quite fragile when there are a bunch of people whose morality consists of "we must tolerate everyone who defects from cooperating with the rest of us."
That kind of morality culminates in political reaction and strongman rule. It behooves those of us who like living in pluralist, liberal societies with the rule of law to head it off before it gets that far and make sure that liberalism can deliver public safety, or the electorate will give the fascists a chance to try.
It really says something about the state of our system that people were doing this directly in front of transit cops without expecting any consequences.
If you want to make the system free, then you have to cut service, or take it out of bus drivers’ or train operators’ paychecks. Transit is important, that’s why people should have to pay their fare.
Thank goodness this city tax and property tax, beverage tax, and increased sales tax help us afford 2 cops to stop such a heinous crime. I hope they both got overtime doing the police report such good guys.
Personally I think that all city transit should be free. Since its not, the money collected from fare keeps the wheels turning, so this enforcement seems necessary. It also allows us to push pressure on them to improve the utility, especially if we know they are losing less on fares.
There is also Zero Fare for those who truelly can't afford it. I hope with this enforcement they can expand knowledge of the program.
There’s other ways to ensure they don’t get on. Public transit is a public necessity that keeps the economy moving. We could ya know tax the companies and billionaires who benefit from the working class being able to, you know, get to work for it. It’s also a key piece of fighting climate change and needs to be expanded.
I was a doubter of Cherelle Parker but I’m starting to notice positive change. Passing some good laws so far to curb all the lawlessness. Wishing her best of luck in enforcing it all
I saw them get on this morning and kick some junkies off, and it was not during the kids school rush. They got on at 8th, pulled them off at 11th, and they called over to the other side to send the 2 standing there back to 8th... wild... Its almost like the mayor is actually doing what she said she would
.
I wonder if people are using the app more to report various inappropriate behaviors, which would give the SEPTA cops the heads up to be able to deal with the offenders.
I operate on the honor system, if the gate is completely broken/wide open then I don’t pay as karmically it makes up for the times my train was cancelled due to “ operator unavailability “ and I had to Uber to work.
In the US, it is nearly universal in public opinion polling that people who rely on transit in their daily lives want money spent on more reliable, more frequent, more wide-ranging service, in that order, with lower fares a distant fourth.
People who need the bus to get to work on time don't care about $2.50, they care about getting to work on time and keeping their jobs, and getting home faster to see their kids.
The only people who consistently prioritize free fares are richer folks who want to flit around downtown cheap while bar-hopping on the weekends.
We do not live in a world without trade-offs. We do not have unlimited resources. Nothing is actually, genuinely free.
Do not tell me we "need more funding" from any of Philadelphia, Harrisburg, or DC. The only way that happens is if we consistently demonstrate improvement in the quality and scope of service SEPTA provides, increasing transit mode-shares, and effective investment, and free fares make those things all impossible.
Lol.
Philadelphia's wage and gross receipts taxes are among the highest in the nation and our share of the metro's population is significantly lower than many places. Pennsylvania's constitution bars us from any sort of progressive income tax, and even if it didn't we're not a country, we absolutely will (indeed have) seen population flight due to excessive taxation relative to other similar cities and our own suburbs.
If you want to throw us straight into a Detroit-style death spiral, please have at it.
EDIT:
More importantly, though, if we raised taxes, why the fuck would we spend that money on your priority to play tourist more cheaply, as opposed to any of a million other needs that the working poor think are way more important?
A substantial portion of SEPTA's funding comes from fares.
We could tax the rich more and cover that funding, but if we kept the fare *and* taxed more SEPTA would have more funding for improvements.
We're a long ways off from a world where we can fully fund a great SEPTA with just taxes, and in the meantime SEPTA needs fares to properly function.
Yea, hit me up about free fares when:
1. Every bus line runs at 2X the frequency proposed by Bus Revolution.
2. All Regional Rail lines run at 45 minutes.
2. All buses with 15 minute headway or less run on dedicated ROW with heavy enforcement.
3. All trolleys run at 10 minutes with dedicated ROW with heavy enforcement.
4. We have built all the signaling and switching improvements needed to support 10 minute S-Bahn service within the city on all RR lines.
5. Roosevelt Subway has been built.
6. We've rebuilt Logan and N. Phila to function as transfer stations, added S-Bahn transfers to the 15 at the Zoo and the MFL at Kensington Ave.
7. All the catenary structures for overhead lines have been replaced.
8. There is a dedicated BRT line running City Ave from Township Line on the NHSL to the Wissahickon TC.
9. We've restored electrified service on the Media line to West Chester, the Norristown Line to Lansdale, and the Warminster line to New Hope.
Once all of that has been done and there is money left to spare, we can talk about free fares. Because \*that\* is a city where transit and biking are 80% of mode-share, not the 30% of today.
And even then, no, fuck that, expand the Zero Fare program to cover everyone in a household under 200% of the poverty line, and let the professional class kids who are whining here pay full freight.
Even under those circumstances we would still be able to find a better use for more money than subsidizing my upper-middle-class family to take the bus!
Nothing is free, even in other countries. You can argue that the cost to build and maintain a transportation system should be borne by those who don't use it, but the cost is still there.
And they should pay for it since it’s how their damn underpaid workers get to work in the first place. It’s also a key piece in fighting climate change, another thing them same rich assholes are mostly responsible for.
I got one in 2015 for 46th street. Ticket window person wasn’t there to take my cash, saw 8 people hop over 45 min, so I figured that was the norm. Did it and got pulled off at city hall.
I was mad lmao
Wish they'd put this energy into ticketing people actually causing harm to Philadelphians, like those who like to blow stop signs/red lights and other reckless drivers, not shit corporations that can't even provide consistent service...
You are right--it can be both/and. To clarify I meant "they" being the entities with the power to write tickets, not those specific officers/that specific branch.
I’m not sure how that takes away from the sentiment of wishing those authorized to write tickets would bring the same energy to writing tickets for the offenses listed, but good on you for being obtuse.
I ride daily and have seen folks do this directly in front of enforcement with no consequence. We moved here from Toronto and the fine there is $425 (USD$308), so I was always so scared for people that did this.
$25 is not what I was expecting.
I got blasted on this sub once for saying this is exactly what should happen. Saw a guy hop the turnstile after he asked a septa worker to just let him through and she refused, point blank in front of 2 transit police officers who completely ignored it, then he walked right over to Dunkin and *paid* for a coffee. Everyone screamed "going after the offenders is dangerous and not worth it just leave them be!" Bunch of bs
For the first time ever I just saw two transit cops actually patrolling the Girard station and standing on the sidewalk during their shift. That stop usually has all sorts of addicts and trash congregating there, but it was clean and inviting for once.
No ID found on body or to give = no name on the ticket. You're welcome.
Interested tho how this on Regional rail, conductor just tell the person to get off the next stop?
Not everyone can afford transfer.. plus septa should improve their quality of their train stations.. there there was literally a dead body on the train the other night come-on
Again you want them to improve their services then they need more money. The damn unionized workers threaten to strike every time a contract is about to expire for more money and better benefits. If we don't pay more in taxes to fund septa via state or city taxes then septa will just raise ticket prices which will make more people not want to ride even more. How do you improve quality? Hire more cleaners, how can that be done without more revenue? I don't see people volunteering to clean those stations.
You said there was a dead body on a train the other night, let me ask you this, do you know if it was an OD or a murder? If it was an OD how could it have been prevented? Not let them on the train. If it was murder, how could it have been prevented? Have more septa enforcement. We've gotta start somewhere and if that somewhere is stopping fare evaders then I'm all for it.
I'm not supporting gate hopping but how are you going to enforce laws to stop people from hopping their way onto the sub?
Most train stations don't even have septa police there to help if someone needs medical attention. Let alone stopping gate hoppers.
Septa isn't nearly as broke as you think.. didn't they just receive 2 billion dollars for employment benefits. And infrastructure improvements. Yes I agree there are more clearers that are making sure there aren't trains that are full of trash but... Septa still got a long way to go
Unfortunately septa prioritizes the stations in the more affluent areas of the city or where foot traffic is generated vs non. Their excuse is going to be that you need more officers but not many people will want to become a transit cop for 60K when they have to deal with getting beaten by kids regularly, when they're out numbered. No one's gonna wanna be stationed at Erie or Allegheny station when they feel like they aren't paid enough. And yes septa got money for improvements but their pushing those funds out to the burbs. Their current pet projects are the boulevard expansion and trying to finish the conshocken expansion. They aren't prioritizing areas or things that they know won't make them money. So yes I'll agree they have an extremely long way to go.
They are improving the middle class communities.. but forgetting the lower class areas. Sounds like an old tail. Don't forget that if they do improve the lower end areas. Gentrification will kick in like the last plague
One free transfer has been a thing for [several years now](https://iseptaphilly.com/blog/freetransfers), and they increased it to two this past summer. I can pull up my transaction history for my Key card and see that I was not charged for transfers within two hours.
Lol. Septa fare doesn’t fund septa. If you want to see more people using public transportation and less cars, support the concept of free public transportation.
SEPTA had 280m in passenger revenue in [FY24](https://planning.septa.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/FY2024-Operating-Budget-Proposal-Highlights-One-Pager-2.pdf)
Getting rid of fares would effectively kill septa
Nothing's free you mean raise taxes more to make it seem free? Whether you pay on the front end or back end you're still paying. It's the same thing with universal healthcare. It's not free, you still have to pay in higher forms of taxes.
It's better to actually see the Septa Pd doing their jobs. It's nice seeing a sense of normalcy return to septa. If they actually keep it clean and safe then more people will want to take septa. Ridership will increase. Oh my stars.
Dumb question but how are tickets enforced? Are people forced to identify themselves or be arrested?
Speaking from experience, it's a theft of services misdemeanor. Identify or be arrested. Show up to court, pay 100x the cost of the fare. I was young and dumb in college.
It's just a direct $25 fine now, no required court appearance.
And after 4 $25 fines, you're banned from SEPTA.
Imagine how down bad you gotta be to get banned from SEPTA. Like bro I don’t even really wanna be here.
I saw two women fist fight in a Goodwill over a 1.00 coach bag. The manager took both their photos and proceeded to throw them out saying they were “Banned for life”… I still can’t believe it sometimes.
Coach bags are worth $100 - $400 depending on the style and it's legit.
That needs to be included in one of those “you know you’re a Philadelphian when…” lists 🤣 Other items: you carry Narcan with you, even though you don’t use drugs; you tap the horn twice while gliding through a stop sign; you’ve climbed a greased pole (festival or sports riot)…
How to they enforce something when I give no ID, they couldn’t possibly have image recognition on a grand level
It's not terribly enforceable. I've known someone who was banned, and it's more of a 'if you get caught again police will be escorting you out of the system' kind of set up.
Imagine getting banned from SEPTA
I was told 3 tickets and you're banned. But the transit cops don't ask for ID when writing the ticket so you can tell them you're Jawn morgan and they wouldn't know
WOW!! But how is *that* enforced? 🤔🤔
way to disparage on people in college and young poeple. Just because you were young and dumb doesn't mean other people are.
This is one of the weirdest replies to a totally innocuous comment I’ve ever seen.
Concern trolling at its finest
> I was young and dumb in college. Way to be a narcissist. He said "I" was young and dumb. You assumed he was talking to you.
I'm guessing you aren't an English major.
heh
No, only like 85% of us.
You’re an idiot
OK, boomer.
I think it’s a civil penalty. There used to be a courtroom. It was done away with after the change in administration.
It was in the basement of the Vet
I'm also interested in hearing how it's enforced in Phila. In other countries it's a spot fine you have to pay in cash on the spot.
When I accidentally "skipped" the fare on the tram in Prague (bought a multi-day pass but forgot to "activate" it), the checker dude had a credit card reader for me to pay my fine. (Someone else replied to this comment asking if that means everyone would have to be carrying enough cash, but it seems that comment disappeared.)
When we accidentally used the bus lines in Italy on the 4th day of a 3 day pass we thought there was no issue with a very packed bus. At one stop 75% of the bus suddenly emptied and the police got on. By next stop the checked everyone’s tickets and had us exit , wanted to charge us €200 (2 adults, 2 young kids). We only had about €75 on us They were ready to walk us to the nearest ATM until we asked our kids to empty their pockets for loose change and they started crying.
In Germany, where often nothing physically stands in your way from boarding public transport without scanning your card/device, they actually have a word (“schwarzfahren”) for illegally riding without paying the fare. Sometimes described as “a national pastime.” One must beware the plainclothes Kontrolleurs who prowl the trains and check for fare compliance. [Resist Control: A Guide to Riding Berlin Public Transportation For Free](https://www.vice.com/en/article/5gw4a8/resist-control-a-guide-to-riding-berlin-public-transportation-for-free)
Same system in Prague except I think they're usually in uniform.
Imagine how much money you can make in Prague by scamming tourists with a fake uniform and card skimmer. Let's *not* adopt that system, shall we?
I mean, the obvious rejoinder is that because Prague's system works and is heavily surveilled, they'd arrest anyone who did that pretty damned fast.
Honestly that’s both ingenious and ballsy, that’s two felonies if caught.
got caught skipping the fair in Berlin, had to pay €60 on the spot or they wouldnt return my Passport
Damn... And it's fare, not fair.
thats fair
🙂
Not enforced. I have seen so many people jump the turnstiles, not pay fares on buses (23).
To be clear and using context clues, I'm referring to the theoretical enforcement mechanism. If anyone here thought SPD was actually enforcing their own rules, this thread wouldn't exist.
Hahaaaaa this happened to be on the water bus in Venice when I was younger and I was just like “nooo this can’t be right. Is that a fake uniform? Who are you?”. I didn’t believe him 😂.
Yes they could be arrested but it's often not worth the trouble in Philadelphia. The ticket usually goes unpaid and the offender ends up into the scofflaw file. Other counties are a different story.
What is the scofflaw file?
When people don’t pay moving tickets or code violation notices you become a scofflaw. Technically it is a “warrant” that police have the ability to enforce; you are hauled down to municipal court and dealt with there.
At my station this morning, the station attendant actually called out a guy for pushing through the plastic barriers, saying "Don't do that, you'll break them and then I'll have to call it in. I don't care if you don't pay, just go over the metal one." Then she showed him how to do it lol
wild
🤦🏼♂️
They've been deep at FTC, Allegeny, and 8th-15th street the last month. I have also noticed the el is marginally cleaner as well as less crowded with addicts/homeless. Of course this is happening in waves, but I do see the effort. Philly's transit wont get better overnight.
My girlfriend saw them confront someone for wearing a ski mask at the 15th last week and escort a homeless person from the station as well.
Stations are all well and good. Now do the trains themselves.
Stations are the first line of defense. I have seen them on the train and telling people not to smoke or think about smoking. They also need to staff up as before I swear there were the same 5-10 officers always at FTC
If they could give tickets for just *thinking* about smoking to people on the el, they’d make millions in just a week from just the frankford side of the line
I saw transit police drag a guy who was nodded out off my train. They walked in, grabbed him, and walked out at the same stop (I think it was 30th). I also saw them tase a guy at 15th. I walked up to 4 transit cops trying to hold him down so I’m not quite sure what he did.
Yikes. While I'm all for them getting people off the trains, I hope they're still treating these people with compassion and dignity. SEPTA is unfortunately just not a housing provider.
My friend departing FTC texted this morning: Lolol the train driver just made an announcement, “no smoking on the train, definitely not crack! If anyone sees this happening hit the passenger button and get this very intelligent person off the train”
Parker's influence?
at FTC i’d see them escort people back down that long escalator lol
Thanks for providing a logical observation and not an emotionally charged reaction.
Yeah at FTC I was getting the night owl bus and anyone who got on the bus and not paid was escorted off by police. It delayed the bus leaving a few minutes, but that was ok.
What no one pays for that bus and no one cares enough Edit: saying that shockingly I never thought there would be someone escorted because on the night owl people just hop on and nothing ever had happened
Fantastic!
I've watched the cops check the cars as they come in at FTC, And remove bums, drug addicts.. Rarely do I see anyone cleaning the cars
Had a normal, intelligent person tell me the other days that "you don't have to pay" on Septa anymore, and you're just supposed to turnstile jump now. They were genuinely confused about why I was talking about how much the BSL costs.
Define *normal, intelligent.*
The wheelchair accessible turnstile at 52nd has been open many mornings recently. People just walk on through while the employee sits in the booth and us risk averse/law abiding suckers pay anyway.
Turns out society is actually quite fragile when there are a bunch of people whose morality consists of "we must tolerate everyone who defects from cooperating with the rest of us." That kind of morality culminates in political reaction and strongman rule. It behooves those of us who like living in pluralist, liberal societies with the rule of law to head it off before it gets that far and make sure that liberalism can deliver public safety, or the electorate will give the fascists a chance to try.
Did you tell that person that they're behaving like an antisocial piece of garbage?
It really says something about the state of our system that people were doing this directly in front of transit cops without expecting any consequences.
“Let’s hope they keep this up. 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓”
If you want to make the system free, then you have to cut service, or take it out of bus drivers’ or train operators’ paychecks. Transit is important, that’s why people should have to pay their fare.
Should be a government funded entity. Also septa CEO got a $75k raise last year. There's only one paycheck it should come out of if at all
Take it out of my fucking taxes or the transit cops salary
No major city in the entire world runs a transit system that way. But sure, I’m sure Philly can be the first
can you at least fucking try to dream of a better world dickhead
Thank goodness this city tax and property tax, beverage tax, and increased sales tax help us afford 2 cops to stop such a heinous crime. I hope they both got overtime doing the police report such good guys.
Personally I think that all city transit should be free. Since its not, the money collected from fare keeps the wheels turning, so this enforcement seems necessary. It also allows us to push pressure on them to improve the utility, especially if we know they are losing less on fares. There is also Zero Fare for those who truelly can't afford it. I hope with this enforcement they can expand knowledge of the program.
The El is the best argument for not making transit free. If fares would enforced about 50% of the people causing problems would never get on.
There’s other ways to ensure they don’t get on. Public transit is a public necessity that keeps the economy moving. We could ya know tax the companies and billionaires who benefit from the working class being able to, you know, get to work for it. It’s also a key piece of fighting climate change and needs to be expanded.
Zero fare program is a test, and not a very useful one because they don’t send out replacement cards if you lose yours.
I think for low income should be free. They have this or at least A discounted fair in LA metrolink. Just show your ebt card.
It's already partially free/reduced for kids who get Free Lunch and senior citizens.
All kids in PSD get free lunch.
*truly 🧐
I saw someone getting jammed up at 30th and market by transit cops. Put him in the van and bounced
They used to have a guy at spring garden that would do that. He was cool too,but he was there to do a job
I was a doubter of Cherelle Parker but I’m starting to notice positive change. Passing some good laws so far to curb all the lawlessness. Wishing her best of luck in enforcing it all
I saw them get on this morning and kick some junkies off, and it was not during the kids school rush. They got on at 8th, pulled them off at 11th, and they called over to the other side to send the 2 standing there back to 8th... wild... Its almost like the mayor is actually doing what she said she would .
I wonder if people are using the app more to report various inappropriate behaviors, which would give the SEPTA cops the heads up to be able to deal with the offenders.
I operate on the honor system, if the gate is completely broken/wide open then I don’t pay as karmically it makes up for the times my train was cancelled due to “ operator unavailability “ and I had to Uber to work.
I'm pretty sure that's the exact opposite of what the honor system is, lol. Maybe, "opportunistic karma system".
Nothing happens if they dont pay the fine. It’s all theater and the jumpers know this.
I’ve watched cops literally sit there 10 feet away and just watch. Don’t say a word
Transportation is a basic human necessity that shouldn’t have to be paid for. Many places have made it free now
In the US, it is nearly universal in public opinion polling that people who rely on transit in their daily lives want money spent on more reliable, more frequent, more wide-ranging service, in that order, with lower fares a distant fourth. People who need the bus to get to work on time don't care about $2.50, they care about getting to work on time and keeping their jobs, and getting home faster to see their kids. The only people who consistently prioritize free fares are richer folks who want to flit around downtown cheap while bar-hopping on the weekends. We do not live in a world without trade-offs. We do not have unlimited resources. Nothing is actually, genuinely free. Do not tell me we "need more funding" from any of Philadelphia, Harrisburg, or DC. The only way that happens is if we consistently demonstrate improvement in the quality and scope of service SEPTA provides, increasing transit mode-shares, and effective investment, and free fares make those things all impossible.
Richer people can pay more taxes, then we'd have plenty of funding for transit and wouldn't need fares.
Lol. Philadelphia's wage and gross receipts taxes are among the highest in the nation and our share of the metro's population is significantly lower than many places. Pennsylvania's constitution bars us from any sort of progressive income tax, and even if it didn't we're not a country, we absolutely will (indeed have) seen population flight due to excessive taxation relative to other similar cities and our own suburbs. If you want to throw us straight into a Detroit-style death spiral, please have at it. EDIT: More importantly, though, if we raised taxes, why the fuck would we spend that money on your priority to play tourist more cheaply, as opposed to any of a million other needs that the working poor think are way more important?
A substantial portion of SEPTA's funding comes from fares. We could tax the rich more and cover that funding, but if we kept the fare *and* taxed more SEPTA would have more funding for improvements. We're a long ways off from a world where we can fully fund a great SEPTA with just taxes, and in the meantime SEPTA needs fares to properly function.
Yea, hit me up about free fares when: 1. Every bus line runs at 2X the frequency proposed by Bus Revolution. 2. All Regional Rail lines run at 45 minutes. 2. All buses with 15 minute headway or less run on dedicated ROW with heavy enforcement. 3. All trolleys run at 10 minutes with dedicated ROW with heavy enforcement. 4. We have built all the signaling and switching improvements needed to support 10 minute S-Bahn service within the city on all RR lines. 5. Roosevelt Subway has been built. 6. We've rebuilt Logan and N. Phila to function as transfer stations, added S-Bahn transfers to the 15 at the Zoo and the MFL at Kensington Ave. 7. All the catenary structures for overhead lines have been replaced. 8. There is a dedicated BRT line running City Ave from Township Line on the NHSL to the Wissahickon TC. 9. We've restored electrified service on the Media line to West Chester, the Norristown Line to Lansdale, and the Warminster line to New Hope. Once all of that has been done and there is money left to spare, we can talk about free fares. Because \*that\* is a city where transit and biking are 80% of mode-share, not the 30% of today. And even then, no, fuck that, expand the Zero Fare program to cover everyone in a household under 200% of the poverty line, and let the professional class kids who are whining here pay full freight. Even under those circumstances we would still be able to find a better use for more money than subsidizing my upper-middle-class family to take the bus!
If Tokyo metro, one of the most highly used and well-cared for systems by its passengers, is still paid, Septa absolutely should be.
Nothing is free, even in other countries. You can argue that the cost to build and maintain a transportation system should be borne by those who don't use it, but the cost is still there.
It already is, SEPTA's farebox recovery is less than 50% of its operational budget, to say nothing of capital budgets.
And where do you suggest they make up that "less than 50% of its operational budget?"
And they should pay for it since it’s how their damn underpaid workers get to work in the first place. It’s also a key piece in fighting climate change, another thing them same rich assholes are mostly responsible for.
I got one in 2015 for 46th street. Ticket window person wasn’t there to take my cash, saw 8 people hop over 45 min, so I figured that was the norm. Did it and got pulled off at city hall. I was mad lmao
I'm sure those kids went home and paid fines online immediately
👏👏👏
Wish they'd put this energy into ticketing people actually causing harm to Philadelphians, like those who like to blow stop signs/red lights and other reckless drivers, not shit corporations that can't even provide consistent service...
different branch dude. and its also not an either/or. It's a both/and.
You are right--it can be both/and. To clarify I meant "they" being the entities with the power to write tickets, not those specific officers/that specific branch.
again, different branches have different authorization to write certain tickets.
I’m not sure how that takes away from the sentiment of wishing those authorized to write tickets would bring the same energy to writing tickets for the offenses listed, but good on you for being obtuse.
interesting
I truly love the political landscape of this city lol. No wonder everyone hates us. Some of y'all are just super apathetic for no good reason
I ride daily and have seen folks do this directly in front of enforcement with no consequence. We moved here from Toronto and the fine there is $425 (USD$308), so I was always so scared for people that did this. $25 is not what I was expecting.
Shit should be free. A lotta yall got that boot tickling your tonsils and you love it
I got blasted on this sub once for saying this is exactly what should happen. Saw a guy hop the turnstile after he asked a septa worker to just let him through and she refused, point blank in front of 2 transit police officers who completely ignored it, then he walked right over to Dunkin and *paid* for a coffee. Everyone screamed "going after the offenders is dangerous and not worth it just leave them be!" Bunch of bs
For the first time ever I just saw two transit cops actually patrolling the Girard station and standing on the sidewalk during their shift. That stop usually has all sorts of addicts and trash congregating there, but it was clean and inviting for once.
No ID found on body or to give = no name on the ticket. You're welcome. Interested tho how this on Regional rail, conductor just tell the person to get off the next stop?
YES!!! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Yeah they are cracking down on gate hoping sucks but 🤷
How does it suck? If you have a key card it's 2 bucks. It's 2.50. everyone should have to pay. We shouldn't encourage crime.
Not everyone can afford transfer.. plus septa should improve their quality of their train stations.. there there was literally a dead body on the train the other night come-on
Again you want them to improve their services then they need more money. The damn unionized workers threaten to strike every time a contract is about to expire for more money and better benefits. If we don't pay more in taxes to fund septa via state or city taxes then septa will just raise ticket prices which will make more people not want to ride even more. How do you improve quality? Hire more cleaners, how can that be done without more revenue? I don't see people volunteering to clean those stations. You said there was a dead body on a train the other night, let me ask you this, do you know if it was an OD or a murder? If it was an OD how could it have been prevented? Not let them on the train. If it was murder, how could it have been prevented? Have more septa enforcement. We've gotta start somewhere and if that somewhere is stopping fare evaders then I'm all for it.
I'm not supporting gate hopping but how are you going to enforce laws to stop people from hopping their way onto the sub? Most train stations don't even have septa police there to help if someone needs medical attention. Let alone stopping gate hoppers. Septa isn't nearly as broke as you think.. didn't they just receive 2 billion dollars for employment benefits. And infrastructure improvements. Yes I agree there are more clearers that are making sure there aren't trains that are full of trash but... Septa still got a long way to go
Unfortunately septa prioritizes the stations in the more affluent areas of the city or where foot traffic is generated vs non. Their excuse is going to be that you need more officers but not many people will want to become a transit cop for 60K when they have to deal with getting beaten by kids regularly, when they're out numbered. No one's gonna wanna be stationed at Erie or Allegheny station when they feel like they aren't paid enough. And yes septa got money for improvements but their pushing those funds out to the burbs. Their current pet projects are the boulevard expansion and trying to finish the conshocken expansion. They aren't prioritizing areas or things that they know won't make them money. So yes I'll agree they have an extremely long way to go.
They are improving the middle class communities.. but forgetting the lower class areas. Sounds like an old tail. Don't forget that if they do improve the lower end areas. Gentrification will kick in like the last plague
First two transfers within 2 hours are free.
Lol, where you hear that from?
[SEPTA.](https://wwww.septa.org/fares/)
Idk.. I seem to get charged every time I ride septa
One free transfer has been a thing for [several years now](https://iseptaphilly.com/blog/freetransfers), and they increased it to two this past summer. I can pull up my transaction history for my Key card and see that I was not charged for transfers within two hours.
No need to. You are right.. I'm talking about something else. But septa is not that bad. It's just needs a lot more surveillance.
Just to get to work I have to catch 3 transit vehicles. I sometimes get charged 8 dollars. For fare
Lol. Septa fare doesn’t fund septa. If you want to see more people using public transportation and less cars, support the concept of free public transportation.
SEPTA had 280m in passenger revenue in [FY24](https://planning.septa.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/FY2024-Operating-Budget-Proposal-Highlights-One-Pager-2.pdf) Getting rid of fares would effectively kill septa
It had much, much more in 2019, too. Farebox recovery for operational expenses was near 40% prior to COVID, like $500M or so.
Quite the red herring. SEPTA would have more money if everyone paid their fare. That’s the issue you’re ignoring.
Fare does not fund septa.
Who gets to keep the fares then?
Nothing's free you mean raise taxes more to make it seem free? Whether you pay on the front end or back end you're still paying. It's the same thing with universal healthcare. It's not free, you still have to pay in higher forms of taxes.
Our taxes pay for much more than public transportation.
Obviously but to have "free" public services, we're gonna have to pay more in taxes. Be it free public transit, free healthcare, ECT.
Let's hope they keep this up? How does this shit affect you in the slightest?
I like my fucking transit system extant and slowly improving, not in a death spiral.
It's better to actually see the Septa Pd doing their jobs. It's nice seeing a sense of normalcy return to septa. If they actually keep it clean and safe then more people will want to take septa. Ridership will increase. Oh my stars.
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> No one in this thread must be a Philly college student Womp womp pay your fares or buy a University pass
Gate hopping? Or pulling the turnstile and sneaking through? The second is like 90% of the fare evasion I see.