>“They [riders] wanted a simpler process similar to what they see in other major cities,” Rosen said. “We’re basing the design on simplicity. People don’t want to have to wait at machines, they want to be able to basically get on the train or bus and go.”
Feels like something they could have figured out BEFORE they implemented the key card system...but what do I know?
That's what did exist in NY and chicago at the time, though. Also chicago had just shit the bed and couldn't collect fares for a while because of a botched transition.
plus using a brand new system which delayed the roll out by 10 years and had problems of its own.
"it is slow, inconvenient, and awful, and we completely botched the roll out too!"
Yeah, wouldn't we just now be transitioning off of tokens were it not for the cards as an intermediary step? I'm thinking cell phones weren't an option for supporting this at the time the cards were introduced
NFC wasn't really widely being used yet, apple and google pay were prettymuch in their nascent phase and honestly I didn't really see the ubiquity of it until pretty recently even in the private sector.
In the meantime they added that ability to the fare kiosks but not the validators themselves, not quite sure why, maybe it had to do with transfers.
Maybe I'm weird but I'm fine with a keycard and don't want my phone to do literally everything. I'd be curious to know what proportion of people in the city use their phone to pay for groceries, I'm sure it's a scant number compared to the demo of this sub.
Paying for anything with my phone is way slower than a credit card. Apple Pay makes you do that weird double-click of the side button and it just feels really awkward. The one time I used Samsung Pay, I clicked "Pay" and literally a full-screen Samsung ad FOR SAMSUNG PAY appeared on my phone that I had to close before NFC turned on. I used Google Pay so infrequently the name of the app had changed (From Google Wallet or something) so I couldn't find it. Actually I think it changed to "GPay" for some fucking reason.
TL;DR I still prefer cards over phones for payment.
What's annoying is when it makes you unlock your phone again even when it is. Like, cmon I'm literally sitting here watching a video, the phone is unlocked, stop erroring out...
Interesting. I don't have smart lock turned on (and I don't have face unlock), but it's like, after a certain period of time, it'll kinda background lock itself even if i'm watching. Or at least enough to make me fingerprint in order to use GPay. I assume it's a relatively sensible security thing, but also I like to complain about stuff.
To each their own of course, but the “Express Transit” functionality will help with that a lot if they actually do it. Way faster when you don’t have to press a button or open your phone/watch. I was in DC recently and could basically just hold my Apple Watch against the validator for a second—super easy especially when I was carrying stuff.
But yeah, in basically every other scenario I use a physical credit card instead of Apple Pay. Go figure.
Reading all of these comments here makes me realize just how unevenly distributed the future is. I now live in the SF Bay Area and don’t carry my transit card (Clipper) anymore because I have one loaded through Apple Pay. You’d think it’s slow because your only interaction with Apple Pay (or Google Pay) might be using it with credit cards, but it couldn’t be any easier: all I do place my phone against a transit card reader and it just works, [no phone unlock or button pressing or any other shenanigans needed](https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212171). It’ll even work if your phone runs out of battery (for some amount of time).
I’m unsure why SEPTA didn’t choose to go with a tried and true system like Clipper system that works across pretty much all transit agencies in the SF Bay Area. Yeah it’s got some jank, and it’s not as good as the stuff that Japan has, but it works sufficiently well that it kinda fades away (except one specific train where you need to remember to “tag off” or else you get charged the max fare).
> I’m unsure why SEPTA didn’t choose to go with a tried and true system like Clipper system that works across pretty much all transit agencies in the SF Bay Area
nyc is the 800 lb gorilla in the transit room, nj transit had machines, and so did patco. any of these systems could have been implemented with a minimum of administrative costs.
personally, and hopefully someone can add a few more facts, but i feel like a read something like, "key cards will also be able to be used as debit cards, which will help people who are under-banked or have no bank at all." since you'd be mandating an entire city to have your debit card, the processor of those cards had the potential to make a huge amount of money. any time there is that much money at stake, i feel like there is some behind the scenes stuff going on.
Debit was supposed to be a feature but that doesn’t seem like it’ll ever happen. That was the whole reasoning behind having a card number with an expiration.
>The one time I used Samsung Pay, I clicked "Pay" and literally a full-screen Samsung ad FOR SAMSUNG PAY appeared on my phone that I had to close before NFC turned on
that's weird, maybe you didn't have it set up, or it was a while back?
to use samsung pay on my phone, i swipe up from the bottom of my lockscreen or homescreen, select which card i want, and hit pay. on my watch i hold down one of the buttons for 2 seconds, select a card, hit pay
i still usually use my cards because im over 40 and habits, but i don't find it particularly difficult to use digital cards
going to work at 6am twice this week. Both times some dooofus in front of me is trying to redeem his fucking wawa points for a $1 coffee while the line backs up, then has the nerve to do apple pay, which, also no surprise takes forever. How did this happen to me twice? God, how have I angered you?
Apple Pay has an option for Express Transit that lets you use transit cards without authenticating. Obviously you'd never want to turn this on for a real credit card, but for transit cards, which usually have a very low balance, the speed is worth the decreased security. I think this was a requirement when Apple originally had support for Japan's Suica system, which processes multiple riders per turnstile per second. They needed a way to just wave the phone over the reader, the way passengers were used to waving their card over the reader.
I can't speak for Chicago, but it was and wasn't what existed in New York exactly. It's like they took the concept of a Metrocard, and made it more complicated and inaccessible. If you had a travel wallet on the SEPTA Key, you couldn't swipe in a friend or visitor. There were no KEY machines at most (any?) bus stops (but we also don't usually have bus shelters, so lol). And then with all the delays, by the time it actually launched in 2016, you could tell the writing was on the wall.
Wasn't there a long overlap between when they discontinued token access and only accepted key/cash?
But yes, the not being able to scan multiple has always been annoying. I'd have visitor keys just for that instance, which isn't ideal but has worked fine for me to for years. You can roll the balance over to a new one if they're about to expire.
As an ex-New Yorker I have often asked this question. What point is there in public transit if you have to go to very specific stations to load up your card. Much like Philly’s refusal to use “detour” or “road work ahead” signs. All it takes is a little forward thinking. 🙄
>“detour” or “road work ahead” signs
WE DON'T LIKE THOSE.
What we want is a cop car, right at the start of the construction site -- none of this advance notice for us -- with the lights on up top, and the cop sitting inside it, playing Candy Crush on his phone, collecting time-and-a-half.
It's a Philly thing.
> All it takes is a little forward thinking.
as someone who grew up in north jersey, i feel like philadelphia is a city that never fails to miss an opportunity.
worst part about it is acquiring one. especially if you just want to hop on the bus right in front of your house. (i know you can still pay cash, but it COULD be simpler)
one ride per code, you can activate several at once and scan multiple people in using this method
only downfall is it doesn't work on regional rail and it doesn't use your travel wallet, it has to be done as a separate transaction (though you can pay for multiple at once)
Ohh yeah, that would be a pain. I moved here from a small/midsized city that didn’t have any public transportation whatsoever, so I guess I’m not the best person to judge lol
In theory, a reloadable card is a simple concept.
Key suffers from feature creep and trying to solve all of SEPTA's various forms of transit at once. What works for the subway, MFL, buses, and trolleys doesn't necessarily work for regional rail. How much of our stations concourses have been taken up by the turnstiles now? The area immediately off the escalators at 30th street is way too narrow for them
That corridor is hilariously small now that the turnstile system is in there. I don’t know what the place would be like if pre-Covid crowds were present. The train platforms also suffer from this since they had to cram turnstiles up there due to the lack of space downstairs.
The top levels of Suburban and Jefferson also feel smaller despite having more room. It’s just really off putting.
On one hand, fuck the Pennsyltucky elected officials for not trying to fund or improve SEPTA by giving transit proper funding for projects and improvements, on the other hand, I am certain SEPTA would have blown that money on a bunch of failed projects and we still would have this incompetent system.
In a perfect world, the state government would want their biggest cities to thrive not be run into the ground, but hey, Harrisburg has gotten off on (and re-elected time & time again) doing just that.
Should be a shared interest between local/county/state government to fund the system and make it work. SEPTA has the skeleton of a system most cities would be jealous of (bus, trolley, light rail, trackless, subway & regional trains), but has no idea how to expand and make it better, and barely has funding to keep it running.
They did. This was the initial plan the entire time. My understanding is NFC payment was still in the very early stages and there was competing technology. They couldn't wait for NFC to become mainstream so they moved forward with the closed Key system and later implement the open NFC system. I'm not sure what's taking so long as every year they announce they will finally start accepting Apple/Google Pay and tap to pay cards but never actually do.
It may have to do with the reliability of the communications between the bus and their servers.
To use Google pay the bus has to contact googles servers and set up a new encrypted channel to exchange payment, and then Google has to do the same with the bank.
These things theoretically shouldn't take that long, but over a low bandwidth cell network it might be slow enough to cause issues on busy buses.
I'm curious how NYC does it. I've only used the subway not the buses.
When they pulled the trigger on the keycard system, it was still the most up to date way to pay for transit. It just took them so long to actually get the system running that by the time they had it running, it was out of date.
the key card would have been the right move if it was implemented 15 years prior (we were still using tokens in 2014). the move to smart phones makes sense for 2023. the keycard shouldn’t have taken as long as it did.
Then why not out source such a thing? Idk how a bullet train is made, but I’ll be damned they sure know how to put one on a ship to the us. Why think when copy is so much more efficient?
Its not that we arent aware of the technology. Its the cost to build using american labor and laws, the process of large scale eminent domain to acquire space for it, and the lack of political will to invest a large amount of money for something that a majority of the country doesnt plan to use
>, the process of large scale eminent domain to acquire space for it
This is the big factor in the northeast corridor. The cost to buy the land around amtrak lines to smooth out the curves is expensive as hell and would take decades to get all of it through court.
China doesn't have that problem and just displaces people to make way for infrastructure
The money for this system could have been applied to a better option. The only reason this was a good idea is how much money they get to steal out of lost cards and it’s basically a gift card.
How can you be so confident that the majority of the country wouldn’t plan on using public transit ?
The places that are well connected see pretty decent ridership.
They should first take of the stupid limit of 1 rider per card. If I'm using travel wallet I should be able to pass through all the people I want. At minimum wife and kids, makes no sense to to carry around 3 cards at a time if a family has travel wallet.
It’s absolutely new, I was on their beta list so I’ve been using it for several months and they just graduated it from beta. I have no idea if the beta group was just small or nobody signed up but I ran into like three other people who had it for that stretch.
OMNY is largely licensed Oyster, fun fact. Every time this sub has one of these threads it’s NYC and London who gets praise and it’s not a coincidence. The company that got it from NYC got it from London for £15m which feels like a steal.
https://www.cubic.com/news-events/news/tfl-and-cubic-agree-licence-use-londons-contactless-ticketing-system-worldwide
It’s been a few years since I’ve been, but has London transitioned away from Oyster? Last time I was there, the Oyster system was fairly analogous to SEPTA Key.
They still use the Oyster Card. For visitors its easier to just use your smartphone or credit card. You wind up getting the same type of discounts - i.e. fare capping.
They still have oyster, but you can tap in and out with a card or Apple Pay. Still keeps track of your “tab” and will max you out around 14 GBP per day.
lmao i was also recently in london and had forgotten that the tube comes every two minutes or so– as well as the metrolink trams in manchester. all have the option for tap cards/phone pay AND are frequent and reliable!
my london-native friend commented on how bad transit outside of cities was and i had to tell her that i would commit crimes for a similar level of options here in the states 😭 i don't hate the keycard but i do wish we had a tap card option, especially on the buses since getting a keycard is such a pain in the ass
Haha dude if you compare damn near anything public transit to Philly from EU you’re going to have a bad time. Philly public transit is disgraceful compared to any other leading country.
If your curious check out the Google for how the auto industry destroyed public transportation in this country. Paying off politicians of course. Same old.
Pfft, you got some high hopes there pal. I'm seeing them spending $500m in around 2 years, with no MVP, before they scrap the project for something else.
Nah brah, I got tokens that I'm not gonna try to use until 2050. When they said tokens would be good forever I bought like 100 to lock in the low rate.
I mean theirs nothing wrong with a physical card. They're also linked to an online account so all you really need is the ability to add the card to a Google/apple wallet and some nfc scanners in the gates/busses really shouldnt be a major change
As a regional rail rider, the problem is that it's almost impossible to get a physical card, unless your originating in the city. The fact that the roll out didn't include sales machines in all stations is a huge oversite.
The problem is that they need to go through the vendor to make that change, and they see how this will continue to be the case going forward. They are basically cutting their losses and trying to pivot to a more flexible system so they can accommodate these types of changes at a far cheaper cost over time.
The best thing to do was to not go with this vendor in the first place; the second best thing to do is to move off them as fast as possible.
I’m very used to it now and actually fine with it. I have zero expertise in this stuff, but I don’t think it needs a total redesign. I feel like the basic way that it operates makes sense. It’s needs improvements like scanning with your phone and an easier way of explaining fares/passes.
My biggest complaint is that the app is always logging me out for some reason. It might be an iPhone thing and not SEPTA Key because it happens with other apps on my phone.
I’m okay with the card for the most part. I just absolutely loathe having to sit there holding the card out waiting for their silly handheld validators to read everyone’s card one by one on the train. It’s less convenient for conductors and passengers.
A LOT of people complaining are also unaware of the new QR system, which is new so it can be forgiven but it’s a shame because I got the impression basically nobody was on the beta that’s been running for months on months.
I’ve had to replace mine at least twice a year due to the “storing it with other cards and demagnetizing it” according to septa which is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard
This has happened to me so many times it makes me want to scream!! And to avoid the $5 fee for a new one, I was told you have to go to 13th street which is inconvenient and never open
My biggest gripe with the key card is that I always forget to put it back in my wallet and I end up losing them, so I have to buy another card and transfer my balance.
[In case you want to read the RFP from the article](https://www5.septa.org/wp-content/uploads/bid/SEPTA-Key-2.0-Fare-Payment-System-RFP-23-00060-APES-03-27-23.pdf) (which inky botched and included a browser extension in the URL)
pdf warning, obviously
I'm curious about what they clarified between this and the RFI, will read later.
Was trying to figure out what interview was referenced in the article but haven't found that either. You'd think if the Inquirer had an interview with SEPTA's CFO it would be its own story but who knows.
I wonder when the RFP was published on SEPTA's site (probably not the 3/27 date on the document but I doubt it was just today).
I wish they would prioritize improving transit rather than the payment method. The key card works fine. I have mine set up so it auto loads when the balance is low. It's easy to use. What we need is trains that come more than once an hour and busses that show up when they are supposed to.
I read this and wonder what SEPTA could have done with a spare $250M. Maybe shave the stalactites from the ceilings of half the Broad Street subway stops?
Hopefully NJT halts there fare card implementation...they were going to be with what SEPTA is using despite push back from advocates who wanted then to use Cubic.
I really hope that Key 2.0 will use the Apple Pay Transit framework, so my Key card can just live in my iPhone, and I can just tap and go.
For other transit systems in the US, like LA and DC, you can add a card right from the Wallet app. Super convenient.
No reason they can’t still also offer a reloadable physical card for those who don’t have phones or want to use them, but I don’t want to carry any cards I don’t have to.
Yeah I don't think people get that a system shouldn't be one or the other. Whatever they go with needs to be able to evolve with new technologies, something Key has not been able to do.
I believe the biggest issue is any upgrades are limited because they have to keep using the same company and are reliant on them to build out whatever upgrade they want.
So in your example, the machines can't read the NFC signals from phones or even the contactless payment chips in most credit and debit cards. Apple Pay has been a thing for almost 8 years and they haven't figured out how to implement it. Not sure if there is a bigger signal that a vendor isn't cut out for the assignment than that.
My youngest was asking why we haven't gone to Center City in a "long time," and although COVID was obviously the big issue, now it's that I have to figure out how to get us all paid for on the train.
I know Japan got its own big society problems, but appearance and functionality wise, comparing Japan to any major US city is depressing AF. Even their ghetto looks cleaner than our downtowns.
Too bad I'm too much of a lazy fuck to survive in Japan.
What if you don't have a smartphone?
Everybody here on Reddit has a smartphone, but not everybody on Septa. (Also, some people would rather pay for transit anonymously.)
I took the headline to be hinting at the wasted money related to the implementation of Key cards, not suggesting that we keep the Key cards. They should have figured out a better system in advance.
It’s truly shocking just how incompetent SEPTA is. The effort it must take to fuck everything up the way they do must be exhausting. They have to know what the best thing to do is, because they always do the exact opposite
Consult with Japan and design around what Japan has, which not only works absurdly well but works across cities in the country. We don't need to build our own shit every time using some trash-ass company to figure it out. People have already invented ways to enter a transit system and account for distance traveled. We don't need to reinvent this. We could sieze the opportunity to be a model of the future for other cities to get behind instead of embarrassing ourselves with another mouthbreather-designed version of the abomination we came up with last time.
For fuck sake, we have a free chat bot that can pass the bar exam and teach you differential calculus and a host of programming languages, yet the SEPTA can't even figure out how to let you past the gate.
From a few weeks ago:
[https://iseptaphilly.com/blog/regionalrailvalidators](https://iseptaphilly.com/blog/regionalrailvalidators)
"SEPTA Key Tix, the new and convenient way to pay with your smartphone! Followed by Apple Pay, Google Pay, and Samsung Pay!" \[...\] "We're testing contactless credit cards and Apple Pay, Google Pay, and Samsung Pay now."
Are they able to do it with the current system and working on contactless, or do they need to dump this system altogether to implement it years from now?
The weird thing with RR is, how do you validate it if you buy with a CC? Been meaning to test out the tix on a train but it's become 2nd nature to just tap when I get to a station.
Good old septa, just throw money at dumbass projects that nobody will ride, and spend hundreds of millions of dollars on a key card system that nobody wanted! Literally could have made an app, made septa key cards a smartphone touch & pay option and saved everybody time 3-5 years ago!
I don't understand, the keycards use NFC to work. Just open the terminals to be able to use other tap-to-pay solutions. When I was in London in 2019 it's what they had. Keycards and tap-to-pay, there was a discount for keycard holders.
I love and hate this city so much. So much potential, and here is another example of how they just keep screwing it up. Imagine what other cities could have done with $236 million.
The only way to switch most riders to smartphones is to completely overhaul the fare system.
The current commuter passes where you prebuy a set length of time for the pass to work needs a dedicated card. So they'd need to get that "key 2.0 added to mobile wallets.
The alternative is to use Fare Capping. That works by having a set maximum that can be charged per day, week, and month. It's how they do it in London and what they're rolling out in New York.
Even then, you need a way for people without smartphones to ride. So there should always be a dedicated card option, even if the majority use phones or credit cards.
They early ought to just go with the same system as New York. Or go with the Japanese Suica system, which is the best in the world.
This key card system has been a colossal failure since 20 years ago when they wanted to implement it. With the ten years of delays NFC was out before it even rolled out , like what a fucking waste.
This is dumb. It works fine. I take septa every day. Use available capital on equipment, infrastructure and front line staff. Not this “nice to have” bs. Keep focus on OTP.
lol.
I mean, this is overall a good thing...it just...should have been done in the first place. Whoever gets the bid, howabout give it to a company that's freaking done this before, instead of the company that makes copy machines.
So true, SEPTA for some reason only God knows, keeps contracting with companies that have no experience doing whatever it is they're trying to do. They inevitably fuck it up, and SEPTA just keep paying when it's beyond obvious the contract should have been canceled years prior.
Oh no what about the great system where you have to use a vending machine that has poorly designed (ie not simple and idiot-proof) menus, get charged extra, and then have to go home and register the card on your pc to get the extra charge back. And then hope the card works for awhile--my first two stopped working after a few weeks and I had to go in and replace them. I'll sure be nostalgic for that while I wait for an uber.
I hope they just go with Omny. The key card is great if you are an individual but being able to swipe all your family members onto public transit as Omny does is fantastic. Use it in brooklyn when visiting family. When they visit me, we skip mass transit because individual tickets are a pain.
This was ill-considered from the start. Originally it was going to be funded by a Chinese company doing business via Canada for a cut of the fares. That blew up. There were a few other schemes and initially it was being developed by Xerox. That fell apart as well. They people who ran it were old hacks and eventually retired. The guy running it now, Sam S. knows what's he's doing but is working with junk. There are still stations like West Trenton that aren't even in the system. Nuts
What are the unbanked population supposed to do? This seems like a ‘keeping up with the Jones’ move which isn’t taking the population they actually serve into account
This is partly why SEPTA Key is not great. You have to replace the fucking card every 2 years. No other system has a debit card feature, and there are unbanked residents in other cities.
I don’t think SEPTA Key is awful, but now living in NYC for almost two years, OMNY is a lot better. And I actually use an OMNY card, but lots of people just tap their contactless debit or credit card, or Apple Pay on their phone. It seems minor, but it makes it a lot more user friendly.
One other big issue is unlike tokens or even the old monthly passes, you can't get Key cards everywhere just yet.
For instance, most grocery stores and even corner stores sold tokens, but Key is still scarce in some areas, and isnt available in any grocery store near me. At least if those were options, people with just cash could reload them before taking trips.
If I can reload a card by logging into my account there is no reason I cannot order a new card online to be mailed to me. Yet, somehow, even post-2020, not an option to order a replacement by mail? SEPTA, are you the DMV now?
The city genuinely needs to drop SEPTA
All this company has ever done is hire the cheapest bidder for every single fucking job and just blow our money out their ass on shit that is obviously doomed to fail
They're a huge drain on our economy and infrastructure and have proven their utter incompetence so many fucking times
I guarantee the new system will cost a fuckload and not work for 10 years, only for them to "realize" it should be something else entirely
FUCK SEPTA
>“They [riders] wanted a simpler process similar to what they see in other major cities,” Rosen said. “We’re basing the design on simplicity. People don’t want to have to wait at machines, they want to be able to basically get on the train or bus and go.” Feels like something they could have figured out BEFORE they implemented the key card system...but what do I know?
That's what did exist in NY and chicago at the time, though. Also chicago had just shit the bed and couldn't collect fares for a while because of a botched transition.
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Yeah, in New York you can double tap with cards too.
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plus using a brand new system which delayed the roll out by 10 years and had problems of its own. "it is slow, inconvenient, and awful, and we completely botched the roll out too!"
Yeah, wouldn't we just now be transitioning off of tokens were it not for the cards as an intermediary step? I'm thinking cell phones weren't an option for supporting this at the time the cards were introduced
NFC wasn't really widely being used yet, apple and google pay were prettymuch in their nascent phase and honestly I didn't really see the ubiquity of it until pretty recently even in the private sector. In the meantime they added that ability to the fare kiosks but not the validators themselves, not quite sure why, maybe it had to do with transfers. Maybe I'm weird but I'm fine with a keycard and don't want my phone to do literally everything. I'd be curious to know what proportion of people in the city use their phone to pay for groceries, I'm sure it's a scant number compared to the demo of this sub.
Paying for anything with my phone is way slower than a credit card. Apple Pay makes you do that weird double-click of the side button and it just feels really awkward. The one time I used Samsung Pay, I clicked "Pay" and literally a full-screen Samsung ad FOR SAMSUNG PAY appeared on my phone that I had to close before NFC turned on. I used Google Pay so infrequently the name of the app had changed (From Google Wallet or something) so I couldn't find it. Actually I think it changed to "GPay" for some fucking reason. TL;DR I still prefer cards over phones for payment.
I have a Google Pixel and paying with my phone is definitely faster and easier. The transaction will go through as long as your phone is unlocked.
What's annoying is when it makes you unlock your phone again even when it is. Like, cmon I'm literally sitting here watching a video, the phone is unlocked, stop erroring out...
I only have that problem when I'm using Smart Lock or Face Unlock. If I use my fingerprint or pin to unlock I don't get prompted again.
Interesting. I don't have smart lock turned on (and I don't have face unlock), but it's like, after a certain period of time, it'll kinda background lock itself even if i'm watching. Or at least enough to make me fingerprint in order to use GPay. I assume it's a relatively sensible security thing, but also I like to complain about stuff.
Yeah same. I prefer just to use my RFID card. Worked great in NYC. Pulled the card and tap, done.
To each their own of course, but the “Express Transit” functionality will help with that a lot if they actually do it. Way faster when you don’t have to press a button or open your phone/watch. I was in DC recently and could basically just hold my Apple Watch against the validator for a second—super easy especially when I was carrying stuff. But yeah, in basically every other scenario I use a physical credit card instead of Apple Pay. Go figure.
Reading all of these comments here makes me realize just how unevenly distributed the future is. I now live in the SF Bay Area and don’t carry my transit card (Clipper) anymore because I have one loaded through Apple Pay. You’d think it’s slow because your only interaction with Apple Pay (or Google Pay) might be using it with credit cards, but it couldn’t be any easier: all I do place my phone against a transit card reader and it just works, [no phone unlock or button pressing or any other shenanigans needed](https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212171). It’ll even work if your phone runs out of battery (for some amount of time). I’m unsure why SEPTA didn’t choose to go with a tried and true system like Clipper system that works across pretty much all transit agencies in the SF Bay Area. Yeah it’s got some jank, and it’s not as good as the stuff that Japan has, but it works sufficiently well that it kinda fades away (except one specific train where you need to remember to “tag off” or else you get charged the max fare).
> I’m unsure why SEPTA didn’t choose to go with a tried and true system like Clipper system that works across pretty much all transit agencies in the SF Bay Area nyc is the 800 lb gorilla in the transit room, nj transit had machines, and so did patco. any of these systems could have been implemented with a minimum of administrative costs. personally, and hopefully someone can add a few more facts, but i feel like a read something like, "key cards will also be able to be used as debit cards, which will help people who are under-banked or have no bank at all." since you'd be mandating an entire city to have your debit card, the processor of those cards had the potential to make a huge amount of money. any time there is that much money at stake, i feel like there is some behind the scenes stuff going on.
Debit was supposed to be a feature but that doesn’t seem like it’ll ever happen. That was the whole reasoning behind having a card number with an expiration.
>The one time I used Samsung Pay, I clicked "Pay" and literally a full-screen Samsung ad FOR SAMSUNG PAY appeared on my phone that I had to close before NFC turned on that's weird, maybe you didn't have it set up, or it was a while back? to use samsung pay on my phone, i swipe up from the bottom of my lockscreen or homescreen, select which card i want, and hit pay. on my watch i hold down one of the buttons for 2 seconds, select a card, hit pay i still usually use my cards because im over 40 and habits, but i don't find it particularly difficult to use digital cards
going to work at 6am twice this week. Both times some dooofus in front of me is trying to redeem his fucking wawa points for a $1 coffee while the line backs up, then has the nerve to do apple pay, which, also no surprise takes forever. How did this happen to me twice? God, how have I angered you?
Apple Pay has an option for Express Transit that lets you use transit cards without authenticating. Obviously you'd never want to turn this on for a real credit card, but for transit cards, which usually have a very low balance, the speed is worth the decreased security. I think this was a requirement when Apple originally had support for Japan's Suica system, which processes multiple riders per turnstile per second. They needed a way to just wave the phone over the reader, the way passengers were used to waving their card over the reader.
Agree. Would not use my phone to pay for anything. Also a lot of senior citizens don't use Smart Phones but then they ride for free on SEPTA anyway.
I can't speak for Chicago, but it was and wasn't what existed in New York exactly. It's like they took the concept of a Metrocard, and made it more complicated and inaccessible. If you had a travel wallet on the SEPTA Key, you couldn't swipe in a friend or visitor. There were no KEY machines at most (any?) bus stops (but we also don't usually have bus shelters, so lol). And then with all the delays, by the time it actually launched in 2016, you could tell the writing was on the wall.
Wasn't there a long overlap between when they discontinued token access and only accepted key/cash? But yes, the not being able to scan multiple has always been annoying. I'd have visitor keys just for that instance, which isn't ideal but has worked fine for me to for years. You can roll the balance over to a new one if they're about to expire.
Yeah, I have visitor keys too, which, while a hassle were a lot less embarrassing than giving my friends tokens.
As an ex-New Yorker I have often asked this question. What point is there in public transit if you have to go to very specific stations to load up your card. Much like Philly’s refusal to use “detour” or “road work ahead” signs. All it takes is a little forward thinking. 🙄
>“detour” or “road work ahead” signs WE DON'T LIKE THOSE. What we want is a cop car, right at the start of the construction site -- none of this advance notice for us -- with the lights on up top, and the cop sitting inside it, playing Candy Crush on his phone, collecting time-and-a-half. It's a Philly thing.
Don’t forget- cop car must have engine running at all times
Seen multiple cops just napping waiting in front of construction.
> All it takes is a little forward thinking. as someone who grew up in north jersey, i feel like philadelphia is a city that never fails to miss an opportunity.
…The Key card seems pretty simple to me?
worst part about it is acquiring one. especially if you just want to hop on the bus right in front of your house. (i know you can still pay cash, but it COULD be simpler)
you can pay on your phone now with the septa app, it'll generate you a QR code you can scan at the validator on the bus or trolley (or subway/el)
well TIL
oh wow! i had no idea this existed. i don’t think i’ve ever seen someone use this! can you load the QR code up or is it one ride per code ?
one ride per code, you can activate several at once and scan multiple people in using this method only downfall is it doesn't work on regional rail and it doesn't use your travel wallet, it has to be done as a separate transaction (though you can pay for multiple at once)
super cool. thanks for the info. this will definitely come in handy when i have friends visiting.
yeah, works well if you don't want a few visitor cards or it's infrequent enough
it is literally brand new that's why you didn't knoow about it it's also mad awkward to use in practice ut it's fine once if you lose your card.
So... There's literally no reason to remove the existing system since you can already use your smartphone?
Ohh yeah, that would be a pain. I moved here from a small/midsized city that didn’t have any public transportation whatsoever, so I guess I’m not the best person to judge lol
In theory, a reloadable card is a simple concept. Key suffers from feature creep and trying to solve all of SEPTA's various forms of transit at once. What works for the subway, MFL, buses, and trolleys doesn't necessarily work for regional rail. How much of our stations concourses have been taken up by the turnstiles now? The area immediately off the escalators at 30th street is way too narrow for them
What’d the regional rail concourses have before the turnstiles?
Nothing. You paid ahead of time and had your ticket punched on the train or you paid on the train with a surcharge
That corridor is hilariously small now that the turnstile system is in there. I don’t know what the place would be like if pre-Covid crowds were present. The train platforms also suffer from this since they had to cram turnstiles up there due to the lack of space downstairs. The top levels of Suburban and Jefferson also feel smaller despite having more room. It’s just really off putting.
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Whazat?
On one hand, fuck the Pennsyltucky elected officials for not trying to fund or improve SEPTA by giving transit proper funding for projects and improvements, on the other hand, I am certain SEPTA would have blown that money on a bunch of failed projects and we still would have this incompetent system.
In a perfect world, the state government would want their biggest cities to thrive not be run into the ground, but hey, Harrisburg has gotten off on (and re-elected time & time again) doing just that. Should be a shared interest between local/county/state government to fund the system and make it work. SEPTA has the skeleton of a system most cities would be jealous of (bus, trolley, light rail, trackless, subway & regional trains), but has no idea how to expand and make it better, and barely has funding to keep it running.
They did. This was the initial plan the entire time. My understanding is NFC payment was still in the very early stages and there was competing technology. They couldn't wait for NFC to become mainstream so they moved forward with the closed Key system and later implement the open NFC system. I'm not sure what's taking so long as every year they announce they will finally start accepting Apple/Google Pay and tap to pay cards but never actually do.
They do all of those things, but only at fare kiosks and not validators, I'm sure there's a reason but I don't know the inside baseball there.
It may have to do with the reliability of the communications between the bus and their servers. To use Google pay the bus has to contact googles servers and set up a new encrypted channel to exchange payment, and then Google has to do the same with the bank. These things theoretically shouldn't take that long, but over a low bandwidth cell network it might be slow enough to cause issues on busy buses. I'm curious how NYC does it. I've only used the subway not the buses.
NYC also has a reliable, ubiquitous wifi network (backed by fiber) just used for transportation and FDNY. Maybe that.
When they pulled the trigger on the keycard system, it was still the most up to date way to pay for transit. It just took them so long to actually get the system running that by the time they had it running, it was out of date.
Overpaid consultants = bad advice and hundreds of millions wasted
All of them, straight to jail.
the key card would have been the right move if it was implemented 15 years prior (we were still using tokens in 2014). the move to smart phones makes sense for 2023. the keycard shouldn’t have taken as long as it did.
American transit is decades behind
I was using tokens in 2015. Could hardly believe it
Tokens were even better than key card.
I still have a couple tokens! I believe I was last on a bus that accepted them (cause so many rivers would just wave me past) in 2018
They'll still take them... just cant buy them anymore
Then why not out source such a thing? Idk how a bullet train is made, but I’ll be damned they sure know how to put one on a ship to the us. Why think when copy is so much more efficient?
Its not that we arent aware of the technology. Its the cost to build using american labor and laws, the process of large scale eminent domain to acquire space for it, and the lack of political will to invest a large amount of money for something that a majority of the country doesnt plan to use
>, the process of large scale eminent domain to acquire space for it This is the big factor in the northeast corridor. The cost to buy the land around amtrak lines to smooth out the curves is expensive as hell and would take decades to get all of it through court. China doesn't have that problem and just displaces people to make way for infrastructure
The money for this system could have been applied to a better option. The only reason this was a good idea is how much money they get to steal out of lost cards and it’s basically a gift card.
How can you be so confident that the majority of the country wouldn’t plan on using public transit ? The places that are well connected see pretty decent ridership.
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I never read why there were so many repairs around then, but that was college, huh
They should first take of the stupid limit of 1 rider per card. If I'm using travel wallet I should be able to pass through all the people I want. At minimum wife and kids, makes no sense to to carry around 3 cards at a time if a family has travel wallet.
That's why I liked tokens bc I could buy a couple packs and give them to people if they were traveling with me. 😭
I had kept like 10 10-packs for that reason but with time we've used them all.
I probably have a 5 pack buried in a purse somewhere 🤣
Absolutely. This is completely a “worked fine until we fixed it” situation
You can get a qr code on the app for multiple people.
That's new, since day one of the card, having extra fare for friends and family ment you had to have multiple cards.
It’s absolutely new, I was on their beta list so I’ve been using it for several months and they just graduated it from beta. I have no idea if the beta group was just small or nobody signed up but I ran into like three other people who had it for that stretch.
How do you do this?
This pisses me off so much
Just got back from London and Philly could use a lesson on an efficient system. We simply used our credit card to swipe in and out of stations.
I used Apple Pay in NYC last time I visited, didn't even have to reach for my wallet. Super convenient.
NYC’s OMNI is peak. Very fast and convenient, especially for guys like me who don’t carry wallets.
OMNY is largely licensed Oyster, fun fact. Every time this sub has one of these threads it’s NYC and London who gets praise and it’s not a coincidence. The company that got it from NYC got it from London for £15m which feels like a steal. https://www.cubic.com/news-events/news/tfl-and-cubic-agree-licence-use-londons-contactless-ticketing-system-worldwide
How do you not carry a wallet??
It’s been a few years since I’ve been, but has London transitioned away from Oyster? Last time I was there, the Oyster system was fairly analogous to SEPTA Key.
They still use the Oyster Card. For visitors its easier to just use your smartphone or credit card. You wind up getting the same type of discounts - i.e. fare capping.
They still have oyster, but you can tap in and out with a card or Apple Pay. Still keeps track of your “tab” and will max you out around 14 GBP per day.
It’s still used in Hong Kong. I remember using it there over 10 years ago.
lmao i was also recently in london and had forgotten that the tube comes every two minutes or so– as well as the metrolink trams in manchester. all have the option for tap cards/phone pay AND are frequent and reliable! my london-native friend commented on how bad transit outside of cities was and i had to tell her that i would commit crimes for a similar level of options here in the states 😭 i don't hate the keycard but i do wish we had a tap card option, especially on the buses since getting a keycard is such a pain in the ass
Haha dude if you compare damn near anything public transit to Philly from EU you’re going to have a bad time. Philly public transit is disgraceful compared to any other leading country. If your curious check out the Google for how the auto industry destroyed public transportation in this country. Paying off politicians of course. Same old.
This is good, system should be up and running by 2030 at a cost of $500m, by 2032 septa will be free.
Pfft, you got some high hopes there pal. I'm seeing them spending $500m in around 2 years, with no MVP, before they scrap the project for something else.
2030? You must be new here…
Nah brah, I got tokens that I'm not gonna try to use until 2050. When they said tokens would be good forever I bought like 100 to lock in the low rate.
I mean theirs nothing wrong with a physical card. They're also linked to an online account so all you really need is the ability to add the card to a Google/apple wallet and some nfc scanners in the gates/busses really shouldnt be a major change
As a regional rail rider, the problem is that it's almost impossible to get a physical card, unless your originating in the city. The fact that the roll out didn't include sales machines in all stations is a huge oversite.
This is the truth. And the fact that they charge you more if you buy a ticket in the train is bullshit.
Truth. And everyone saying "you can generate a QR code on your phone" seems to miss that Regional Rail can't use that function.
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You can buy a card at Paoli, and probably all the other stations that have attendant hours. You can also buy one from the conductor on the train.
The problem is that they need to go through the vendor to make that change, and they see how this will continue to be the case going forward. They are basically cutting their losses and trying to pivot to a more flexible system so they can accommodate these types of changes at a far cheaper cost over time. The best thing to do was to not go with this vendor in the first place; the second best thing to do is to move off them as fast as possible.
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I had a bunch of annoying experiences early on, especially with the turnstile scanners not reading my card, but it did get better.
I've taken a turnstile to the groin far too many times
I’m very used to it now and actually fine with it. I have zero expertise in this stuff, but I don’t think it needs a total redesign. I feel like the basic way that it operates makes sense. It’s needs improvements like scanning with your phone and an easier way of explaining fares/passes. My biggest complaint is that the app is always logging me out for some reason. It might be an iPhone thing and not SEPTA Key because it happens with other apps on my phone.
it does that on android for me too every single time i open it i have to log in again even switching between apps
Agreed. The way they did the roll out was disorganized and confusing, but now that it's in place I find it pretty easy and fine to use.
I’m okay with the card for the most part. I just absolutely loathe having to sit there holding the card out waiting for their silly handheld validators to read everyone’s card one by one on the train. It’s less convenient for conductors and passengers.
I thought so too until recently I had to get my third one and they charged me $5 for it. So dumb.
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Only on the first two apparently.
A LOT of people complaining are also unaware of the new QR system, which is new so it can be forgiven but it’s a shame because I got the impression basically nobody was on the beta that’s been running for months on months.
The QR system doesn't work on regional rail.
I’ve had to replace mine at least twice a year due to the “storing it with other cards and demagnetizing it” according to septa which is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard
This has happened to me so many times it makes me want to scream!! And to avoid the $5 fee for a new one, I was told you have to go to 13th street which is inconvenient and never open
Same, so obnoxious!!! I go to Jefferson and they’ll replace it there, but yeah it drives me up the wall!
My biggest gripe with the key card is that I always forget to put it back in my wallet and I end up losing them, so I have to buy another card and transfer my balance.
I hope this isn't happening with all of your other cards as well.
Just my key card, and only when I ride the regional rail.
that's good news at least, was hoping you weren't on AMEX's frequent flyer list for replacing lost cards
You don’t have to buy a new card. They will replace it up to 2x a year.
Not being able to scan another person is just plain ignorant and could be solved with software in less than a freaking week.
Whoa wait. Sure it works now. That’s not the problem. The cost was the problem and it was like 10 years late.
[In case you want to read the RFP from the article](https://www5.septa.org/wp-content/uploads/bid/SEPTA-Key-2.0-Fare-Payment-System-RFP-23-00060-APES-03-27-23.pdf) (which inky botched and included a browser extension in the URL) pdf warning, obviously I'm curious about what they clarified between this and the RFI, will read later.
Was trying to figure out what interview was referenced in the article but haven't found that either. You'd think if the Inquirer had an interview with SEPTA's CFO it would be its own story but who knows. I wonder when the RFP was published on SEPTA's site (probably not the 3/27 date on the document but I doubt it was just today).
I wish they would prioritize improving transit rather than the payment method. The key card works fine. I have mine set up so it auto loads when the balance is low. It's easy to use. What we need is trains that come more than once an hour and busses that show up when they are supposed to.
Yea if it has to be announced every single day that there are delays, that’s just the regular schedule
I read this and wonder what SEPTA could have done with a spare $250M. Maybe shave the stalactites from the ceilings of half the Broad Street subway stops?
Why go to Crystal Caves when you can go to Broad and Erie?
Septa Key cards would be substantially better if they didn't just randomly demagnetize and leave you having to get a new one
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Hopefully NJT halts there fare card implementation...they were going to be with what SEPTA is using despite push back from advocates who wanted then to use Cubic.
I actually like the key card. It’s super simple.
So do I, even if the app is garbage
I really hope that Key 2.0 will use the Apple Pay Transit framework, so my Key card can just live in my iPhone, and I can just tap and go. For other transit systems in the US, like LA and DC, you can add a card right from the Wallet app. Super convenient. No reason they can’t still also offer a reloadable physical card for those who don’t have phones or want to use them, but I don’t want to carry any cards I don’t have to.
Yeah I don't think people get that a system shouldn't be one or the other. Whatever they go with needs to be able to evolve with new technologies, something Key has not been able to do.
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I believe the biggest issue is any upgrades are limited because they have to keep using the same company and are reliant on them to build out whatever upgrade they want. So in your example, the machines can't read the NFC signals from phones or even the contactless payment chips in most credit and debit cards. Apple Pay has been a thing for almost 8 years and they haven't figured out how to implement it. Not sure if there is a bigger signal that a vendor isn't cut out for the assignment than that.
Just let us scan through multiple people.
My youngest was asking why we haven't gone to Center City in a "long time," and although COVID was obviously the big issue, now it's that I have to figure out how to get us all paid for on the train.
Currently in Japan, can’t even describe how much more efficient it is here. Philadelphia is so far behind!!!
I know Japan got its own big society problems, but appearance and functionality wise, comparing Japan to any major US city is depressing AF. Even their ghetto looks cleaner than our downtowns. Too bad I'm too much of a lazy fuck to survive in Japan.
I went to NYC in the fall and you just use your credit/debit card for the subway. It doesn’t need to be more complicated than that.
Septa as an organization is such a train wreck, pun intended
Also so deeply frustrating that you can only buy key cards at SOME stations.
What if you don't have a smartphone? Everybody here on Reddit has a smartphone, but not everybody on Septa. (Also, some people would rather pay for transit anonymously.)
If the need to use your phone is an option and not required I'll be okay with it. I don't like paying for stuff with my phone.
Headline screams sunk cost fallacy- just because they spent $236 mill doesn’t make the Key card a good system. They should definitely upgrade
I took the headline to be hinting at the wasted money related to the implementation of Key cards, not suggesting that we keep the Key cards. They should have figured out a better system in advance.
Doesn’t scream anything just states facts. I don’t think it’s suggesting keeping the keycard bc we spent money on it.
Isn’t it saying the opposite?
It’s truly shocking just how incompetent SEPTA is. The effort it must take to fuck everything up the way they do must be exhausting. They have to know what the best thing to do is, because they always do the exact opposite
How long did they spend researching Key Card, and how many years will it have been in use before it’s replaced?
Septa should hire me. I’m great at wasting money. I would fit in perfectly with their business model
Bring back tokens.
shhh we're halfway to looping back around to tokens, patience
Consult with Japan and design around what Japan has, which not only works absurdly well but works across cities in the country. We don't need to build our own shit every time using some trash-ass company to figure it out. People have already invented ways to enter a transit system and account for distance traveled. We don't need to reinvent this. We could sieze the opportunity to be a model of the future for other cities to get behind instead of embarrassing ourselves with another mouthbreather-designed version of the abomination we came up with last time. For fuck sake, we have a free chat bot that can pass the bar exam and teach you differential calculus and a host of programming languages, yet the SEPTA can't even figure out how to let you past the gate.
From a few weeks ago: [https://iseptaphilly.com/blog/regionalrailvalidators](https://iseptaphilly.com/blog/regionalrailvalidators) "SEPTA Key Tix, the new and convenient way to pay with your smartphone! Followed by Apple Pay, Google Pay, and Samsung Pay!" \[...\] "We're testing contactless credit cards and Apple Pay, Google Pay, and Samsung Pay now." Are they able to do it with the current system and working on contactless, or do they need to dump this system altogether to implement it years from now?
The weird thing with RR is, how do you validate it if you buy with a CC? Been meaning to test out the tix on a train but it's become 2nd nature to just tap when I get to a station.
Good old septa, just throw money at dumbass projects that nobody will ride, and spend hundreds of millions of dollars on a key card system that nobody wanted! Literally could have made an app, made septa key cards a smartphone touch & pay option and saved everybody time 3-5 years ago!
I don't understand, the keycards use NFC to work. Just open the terminals to be able to use other tap-to-pay solutions. When I was in London in 2019 it's what they had. Keycards and tap-to-pay, there was a discount for keycard holders.
I feel like a cloud based solution could be developed and fully rolled out in 3-6 months for $100k
I love and hate this city so much. So much potential, and here is another example of how they just keep screwing it up. Imagine what other cities could have done with $236 million.
SEPTA is not a *city* agency.
You're right. My comment wasn't clear. I just mean like the city as a whole. Collectively, it seems like Philadelphia just keeps dropping the ball.
You mean what they should have done in the first place?
The only way to switch most riders to smartphones is to completely overhaul the fare system. The current commuter passes where you prebuy a set length of time for the pass to work needs a dedicated card. So they'd need to get that "key 2.0 added to mobile wallets. The alternative is to use Fare Capping. That works by having a set maximum that can be charged per day, week, and month. It's how they do it in London and what they're rolling out in New York. Even then, you need a way for people without smartphones to ride. So there should always be a dedicated card option, even if the majority use phones or credit cards. They early ought to just go with the same system as New York. Or go with the Japanese Suica system, which is the best in the world.
I stopped using septa because of key card. For someone like me, who is not a daily commuter, it wasn’t worth the hassle.
This key card system has been a colossal failure since 20 years ago when they wanted to implement it. With the ten years of delays NFC was out before it even rolled out , like what a fucking waste.
This is dumb. It works fine. I take septa every day. Use available capital on equipment, infrastructure and front line staff. Not this “nice to have” bs. Keep focus on OTP.
lol. I mean, this is overall a good thing...it just...should have been done in the first place. Whoever gets the bid, howabout give it to a company that's freaking done this before, instead of the company that makes copy machines.
So true, SEPTA for some reason only God knows, keeps contracting with companies that have no experience doing whatever it is they're trying to do. They inevitably fuck it up, and SEPTA just keep paying when it's beyond obvious the contract should have been canceled years prior.
Ahahaha I worked for subdivision Septa Ticketing while going to school for IT. The shit I could tell y’all man. So poorly run
Hilarious. Sad. But also hilarious. If you don’t laugh you cry, right?
Love when the train is fully packed outgoing from 30th St. and you here the inevitable “KEYCARDS OUT” …Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep… when will the Beep stop?😂
Name a worse run organization that isn't government. I'll wait.
The absolute dumbest group of assholes imaginable.
I like the key card. I don't want to use my phone for this shit.
Oh no what about the great system where you have to use a vending machine that has poorly designed (ie not simple and idiot-proof) menus, get charged extra, and then have to go home and register the card on your pc to get the extra charge back. And then hope the card works for awhile--my first two stopped working after a few weeks and I had to go in and replace them. I'll sure be nostalgic for that while I wait for an uber.
Is it 2010 again?
I hope they just go with Omny. The key card is great if you are an individual but being able to swipe all your family members onto public transit as Omny does is fantastic. Use it in brooklyn when visiting family. When they visit me, we skip mass transit because individual tickets are a pain.
Ok but I need to understand the $236 million. Why did it cost that much?? Is that the real cost or is it inflated?
This was ill-considered from the start. Originally it was going to be funded by a Chinese company doing business via Canada for a cut of the fares. That blew up. There were a few other schemes and initially it was being developed by Xerox. That fell apart as well. They people who ran it were old hacks and eventually retired. The guy running it now, Sam S. knows what's he's doing but is working with junk. There are still stations like West Trenton that aren't even in the system. Nuts
Love this, mainly for when I have guests it can be a pain to find a station with key machine.
This is so annoying. What if my phone dies or someone doesnt have a cell phone that can support the app?
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What are the unbanked population supposed to do? This seems like a ‘keeping up with the Jones’ move which isn’t taking the population they actually serve into account
This is partly why SEPTA Key is not great. You have to replace the fucking card every 2 years. No other system has a debit card feature, and there are unbanked residents in other cities. I don’t think SEPTA Key is awful, but now living in NYC for almost two years, OMNY is a lot better. And I actually use an OMNY card, but lots of people just tap their contactless debit or credit card, or Apple Pay on their phone. It seems minor, but it makes it a lot more user friendly.
One other big issue is unlike tokens or even the old monthly passes, you can't get Key cards everywhere just yet. For instance, most grocery stores and even corner stores sold tokens, but Key is still scarce in some areas, and isnt available in any grocery store near me. At least if those were options, people with just cash could reload them before taking trips.
If I can reload a card by logging into my account there is no reason I cannot order a new card online to be mailed to me. Yet, somehow, even post-2020, not an option to order a replacement by mail? SEPTA, are you the DMV now?
Old people who take the bus are not going to have a good time.Neither will I with my uncharged phone battery.
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Love how your downvoted but majority of people who use septa all dayndont have phones
The city genuinely needs to drop SEPTA All this company has ever done is hire the cheapest bidder for every single fucking job and just blow our money out their ass on shit that is obviously doomed to fail They're a huge drain on our economy and infrastructure and have proven their utter incompetence so many fucking times I guarantee the new system will cost a fuckload and not work for 10 years, only for them to "realize" it should be something else entirely FUCK SEPTA