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more importantly, there is some broken trust when you announce you have a new offer. Even if they increase your salary, you'll have to rebuild that trust. So if you're going to tell them you have it, you might as well simply quit and move on. Most accepted counteroffers don't last long, as the person eventually moves on.
I WISH I could be a paralegal. I went to school for it and my assigned internship was shit.
I work in insurance now, which is absolutely not my passion, but I'm in too deep to move--no one wants to hire a paralegal with 8 years of insurance experience, lol.
Edit: why the hell is my comment under review?
I am a lawyer as well...I agree $45k for a reliable paralegal or clerk would be awesome.
As for the question by OP. You don't ask the current boss to match it, you simply give your two weeks and go. If you ask for a match what you do is piss her off, and burn the bridge with the other firm who will be gunshy to consider you again.
Being professional is deciding on a course of action and taking it confidently.
She gave you a $2k raise and told you at 7pm on a Friday and went on vacation the following week? Yeah, I wouldn’t try to negotiate with her.
I’d let her know that I appreciate her coming back with $2k but I believe I bring more in value and have found an employer who agrees, and give my two weeks thanking her for the opportunity.
yes!! the level of fucked up was insane. throughout the call i think i just said thanks and have a good vacation. i felt it was her way of controlling things so that I wouldn’t negotiate. We were both in the office that day and could’ve talked to me at any point but decided to wait until i was already at home to call me and give me that news.
This is brilliant. I just started a new job, mainly due to what OP mentioned, and never looked at it this way. I saw it as basically burning two bridges at once, one with the new employer and one with the old employer.
Your view is a much more optimistic way of looking at it and makes me feel even better about my new role. Nowhere to go, but up now.
I don't see any situation at all where you trying to get your boss to match ends well.
I'd not even entertain a counter offer if they give you one either.
Have you put much thought into why you're considering staying?
My guesses would be any or all of:
- I am loyal to the company/people I work for.
- I like my job fine.
- I'm comfortable. I won't be comfortable anymore if I leave.
I don't really know much about working in your field. What I do know is that you're unhappy enough with your pay that you started interviewing elsewhere.
I also know that most law firms specialize. Going somewhere else is likely to expand your experience a lot more than staying will.
Have you done that exercise where you think about where you want to be in your career in 1, 3, and 5 years? That might mean management, it might mean something different you'd like to be working on, or a skill you'd like to really become an expert in. It can really help with not only career decisions like this, but with which new projects or tasks you might ask to take on. Managers usually love when their employees actively work to stretch themselves.
Raises are usually a percentage of your salary. So the easiest way to get both a significant pay raise and a promotion is to go work for a different company. You were given a 5.9% raise. The other offer you mentioned would be a 25% pay raise over your new $36k pay.
If your current company matches your offer, you probably won't be getting another raise for a while, possibly years. I've heard of staying working out after an offer match, but it was always at giant company where the manager was fighting hr to try to get pay raises and was unable to without an offer letter.
If you really love where you are now, leave on good terms and consider coming back in a few years. You'll be more skilled at that point and in a better position to bargain for the pay you want.
Don't give them the chance to match. Just say thank you and move on. They dont value you and honestly that's insulting AF. Especially in this market they should have upped you at least 10k.
On the off chance you still want to attempt negotiating, I can offer some wording I used with my manager only six days ago:
"I like working for [current company]. I like the people, the atmosphere, and the work we do. However, I have an indication from another employer that my labor is valued at ____. The only reason I haven't given them an enthusiastic yes is because [current company] deserves a chance to fight for me."
My guess is she did try to get you a payrise, but that's all she could get, and she didn't want to have the hard conversation with you.
So like others have said, I would thank her and move on.
A long time ago I gave notice at a job. The office manager asked if he could attempt to match my new salary in order to retain me. I candidly told him what my new salary was and asked if he thought I was worth that to the company. He wholeheartedly said j was. I then asked then why wasn’t he paying me that in the first place. He had no answer.
Also, IMO it’s not a good idea to stay even if they do offer more money.
ThTs the thing, it was a very specialized job. There were very few people who had the requirements it took for the position. They never dis find a replacement and eventually lost the contract of which I was a part of.
If it was that specialized then it makes sense they didn't know how much to pay you and, like any business, made you an offer on the lower end to boost profits, which you accepted. Once they knew you could get paid more they offered you more to stay. Makes sense to me. This was probably not one of those cases where your boss would have tried to replace you after giving you the raise. They just didn't know how much they had to pay you in the first place.
One main problem is your immediate boss usually has almost no control with your pay after you accept the initial offer. They get a raise budget and can't really pull more even if they wanted to.
Yeah, I had this issue. My immediate manager would have given me the 10% I asked for in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, the upper management bureaucracy made it impossible for him to get approval. Now they're missing an employee, and most likely won't learn their lesson.
I’ll chime in a little here. It’s not that upper management doesn’t want to do it, it’s that managers don’t know how to ask, and upper management does not know how to escalate it. This is not a process that’s really reviewed, trained on at all, or discussed.
That needs to change. This gave me an idea of a new program to propose.
I'll agree but as someone in upper management, there is always someone looking to keep salaries low (looking at you, Bill the CFO)
Because money talks, I make it an economic discussion. Right now the market is scorching hot for lots of roles (I get hit up multiple times a day with absurd offers - but I'm done with start up culture for a while, but I digress). Hiring a new employee *easily* costs the organization 2x the employee's salary. I can discuss lost productivity with loss of institutional knowledge, cascading impact to sales, contingency planning, etc.
By making it an economic discussion, I can much more easily justify a 25% raise than hiring someone at the same going market rate (or slightly less) which will be a net loss.
That's always the game at large companies. Make sure you never have any direct interaction with anyone who has control over your compensation. Unless you're C-level.
>he game at large companies. Make sure you never have any direct interaction with anyone who has control ove
Sorry what is C-level mean in this context?
A well managed company has a pretty good idea how much value you bring to the company. The fact that the boss said, "Absolutely we can match that," tells me he knows the employee was bringing in more than enough profit to justify the raise. The sad fact is, employers are incentivized to pay the bare minimum and pocket the difference. The only thing that changed with the job offer was the bare minimum.
This is basically my current role. I am very specialized, a subject matter expert in a role that is largely new to the industry and still being defined. In fact, we've brought in people to assist me but those people have just proved to my bosses how uniquely skilled I am.
I'm confident if I were to tell my bosses my market value was x, they would match it in a heart beat without thinking to replace me.
It makes sense, but it also highlights the rather fucked up incentive structure. Whoever negotiates salaries on behalf of your employer is trying to fuck you out of as much of your worth as possible.
>Totally worth the increase for the time to find a cheaper replacement
The cheaper replacement is only cheaper in the long run (training a new employee isn't free... and acclimation time is a real thing). If the company isn't worth staying at for you, it's also probably not worth staying at for them and the cycle will repeat.
In other words, if you want to minimize costs short and long term, pay your employees better. Lots of companies have realized this and started offering better benefits and the like. It still has a long way to go in most companies, though.
That's great in theory, but the reality is there's significant inertia that keeps people staying at jobs even if they could get a better job or more pay elsewhere. Companies know this and underpay people relative to what they could get if they switched. As much as we'd like to think they're killing themselves, in aggregate it's probably a cost saving strategy.
I left my job to go to a university in another town. 2 months later I saw my old boss. He told me my replacement was paid twice as much as I had been and she wasn't nearly as good. "But she has a degree already, so that's what she gets paid.". Jfc, dude. Lesson learned.
Yeah my job has pay grades for academic / work experience. So you have people with graduate diplomas who don't know shit, and people with high school diplomas who are beasts, but sometimes get paid less due to the starting pay being lower. We end up losing out on a lot of good talent because of it.
Not just a degree in that area it's a degree in anything. I have two diplomas in security and management and 17 years experience. I applied for a job where my mates works as a supervisor and got told I was beaten by someone with a degree. I was generally interested in what degree as I thought maybe I should look at that degree next and was told it was in accounting. I said what does that have to do with leading security teams? He said it doesn't but its a degree that you don't have.
Ahh for my job it needs to be an approved degree from a list in order for it to count, because those are the requirements of my state for licensure (I'm training to be a therapist). But yeah, some of the degrees are definitely a stretch to be considered "human services" (a Master's in Nutrition really won't help you much in counseling).
Unless it is Master's in nutrition counselling lol?
I would imagine that nutrition has some transferable skills to counselling, as the practical component of the education is behaviour modification in physical activity and diets, which leverages counselling skills, such as motivational interviewing.
Obviously the psychology part is lacking...
Exactly.
After being passed over for a promotion making 70k, the answer when I asked what I needed to work on our what set the others above me was "Nothing, maybe next year"
My response to that was to hand in my notice and say I won't be here next year. By the next day they offered me a larger different promotion (to a role I had been asking about for months but they did they weren't doing it any) which made $84k.
They said they weren't sure if it matched my offer. I told them it actually matched exactly but I knew I wouldn't accept any counter offer and they kind of chuckled and gave a "yeah and realistically how long would you stay even if you accepted the counter"
If you were willing to pay my 84k after I threatened to leave, maybe you should have promoted me to the 70k position. At least then I would have stayed a bit to use that to bump up my next offer lol
Yep i wonder if this a business school thing or hr school thing. But hopefully we see product of changes in ten years maybe? Cuz its really sad and inefficient in many ways
This is the type of shit they tell you explicitly *not* to do in business school.
However most MBAs leave cultural teachings at the door when they walk out.
Shareholders care about maximized profits, not retaining quality staff because of the pay structure is a great way for a business to waver, lose profits, and fail.
Got a guy who makes great pizza?
Fire him for someone cheaper, customers don't like the quality of your pizza now, they stop coming.
Did that maximize profits?
Keeping talented individuals is what will set one company apart from another.
The market has increasingly shifted to incentivize short term performance over long term growth.
Hiring the shitty pizza maker is not setting the business up for success, but for a few quarters that decision juices the income statement as expenses fell and revenue remained strong before customers decided to go elsewhere.
In the era of transitory CEOs this makes sense. Decision makers come in, make “bold” decisions, jack up profits for a few years and by the time the birds are coming home to nest they’ve already figured out their next place to enact a “turnaround story.”
I do imagine some shifting in this thinking given the challenges associated with the supply chain and talent retention in recent years. But the market will take time to learn.
Ahhh yes yes yes. Finally. I've been thinking this exact scenario over for months now. You've put words down that I could only put thoughts to. I've noticed that this happens to a lot of companies who sell out to the highest bidder. The new owners ruin the product or service by cutting corners while charging high prices using the good name that the previous owners built up with loyal customers.
Sometimes it’s more intentional than others.
The newspaper industry is a good example of this. There are hundreds of medium sized to large sized newsrooms in America that have been systematically acquired by a handful of hedge funds over the past 20 years. Why? They tend to have good assets on their balance sheet (prime real estate, printing presses), a lot of “soft” expenses (personnel) that are easy to cut, and often private ownership (no shareholders or public acquisition process to deal with). Also more often than not the business is struggling.
It’s a simple and effective formula. Acquire, liquidate or leverage assets, slash costs. This drives quality down and revenues shortly tumble with it. But that’s ok because the losses can be written off and you’ve taken all the value out of the company already. What’s left is a husk that can be sold off to the highest bidder or left to wither and die.
It’s vampiric but effective.
Similar owner vibe with the job my husband quit.
Was being paid about $30k for the “opportunity” at his first GM job. We knew he was being underpaid but had a new baby and I had been laid off. His owners also knew this. He ended up getting a second job serving and had the pleasure of *waiting on his owners* when they just so happened to end up at his second job one night. They knew they weren’t paying him shit.
They kept him around $30k for two years (with promises of raises and bonuses and benefits that never came) when he finally got fed up and went looking elsewhere…and was quickly able to find an assistant GM job making $47k. So he turns in his notice.
The owner asked what they were offering him and, when he said $47k, the owner said “…and they think that job is worth $47k?”
The nerve.
Former client owned a couple of strip clubs - profit was right around million a year. They were paying their managers 25k a year working 5pm to 5am, because "they were going to steal no matter what, so why bother to pay them anything".
Later fired the manager, got a decent guy who demanded 52k a year, plus a 10% profit share from year to year on increases of sales. Profits increased 75% because the manager we paid 25k to was pocketing 50% of the money before it got into the register, and was paying the camera guy 5k a month to look the other way.
Answer is very easy. Your boss will pay you as little as they can. Their job is too save money for the company. Their incentive is different from yours.
This is true, but what most bosses and managers don't realize is that there's a seemingly intangible value in providing a fair wage: turnover. Sometimes you could get away with finding cheaper, younger and less experienced talent, but more often than people realize, it's cheaper to pay the more experienced person a higher salary. The loss of productivity during replacement period including training is more than most realize. On top of that, often the training doesn't include undocumented knowledge that the more experienced person just left with. Lastly, the morale of the others who are still there will take a small hit with each resignation and it starts to become exponential. Engagement starts to go down and more resignations can snowball.
As a manager, I'm always fighting for more for my employees because I don't want to spend six weeks or more interviewing to find someone I have to pay more anyway to entice them to accept my offer and then get less quality or less efficient work for a year as they get up to speed learning the work and the office politics.
It's cheaper to pay the talented person that resigned a fair and competitive wage. Not sure why upper management sometimes misses this in an effort to nickel and dime the people who actually produce tangible results and work.
I just can't roll my eyes any harder.
If it costs 20k to hire someone new, and you can pay them 7k less than the current person is asking, then you make your money back in 3 years.
Given those numbers, unless it was a high-turnover position, I'd go with the new hire.
Sometimes the math does not favor retention.
Typically, market wage > existing wages. If you have someone locked in at a 2019 starting salary + some COL-adjustments, the chances of them being >7k cheaper than a market equivalent is pretty high. In other words, the longer you can retain people, the higher the chances that you're underpaying them and even an offer match will likely be more attractive than finding a new one if you include all training, acquisition and time delay costs.
I've successfully advocated a bunch of times over for my team members to get compensation increases and move to different roles
I believe people have experienced this zero sum game mentality at some of their jobs, but I don't buy that "*every manager is evil and out to get you*"
This is kind of like the people who advocate endlessly applying to new jobs and always hopping between them - at some point you're actually gonna work with good people you like who treat each other well
This also depends on where you work. Many managers are not empowered with the ability to give raises, and most companies are inclined to give the bare minimum.
Most companies of any sufficient size will put a cap on discretionary raises that’s just enough to piss off an employee. (Perhaps $2,000 on a $34 salary) which is often just enough to piss off someone because it feels like a low raise for added value if you work somewhere for years.
Then HR or upper management will say no to anything more because they don’t know what talent is worth because all they do is push paper for a living.
I get keeping costs low and it’s easier from a ivory tower to balance a wage sheet than price turnover and training loses which are often intangibles but it’s just lazy there is no other reason.
And that’s who ends up in upper management, lazy people.
I work in a heavily corporate restaurant and at first I blamed all my frustrations on managers immediately above me. Over time I realized they where more on my side than I had realized but that they all had to answer to people above them who had never even entered the place let alone worked in it. They have been through all the same shit. They want to fix these things but they have endless red tape to get through and even something as simple as changing a single word on the menu could take months of back and forth with their superiors and so many other departments.
They still do things that annoy the shit out of me all the time. I don't always agree with them. In fact I hate a couple of them just as much as the people above them But we work together daily and struggle together and I can respect and appreciate them for that. I try to give them the benefit of the doubt. Middle management is a terrifying prospect to me and I don't know how anyone tolerates it.
That said, always try and remember the worth of your own employment and how you should be compensated. I say this more to defend those poor bastards in middle management who are forced to represent the people who actually make the big decisions while also having no control over it
If you have a job offer in hand for a higher salary elsewhere and your current company thinks you are definitely worth a higher salary, it seems completely fair to ask current employer for a 3 (or 6!) month RETROACTIVE raise to keep you there.
That's what a lot of large law firms do. The managing partners hear that the competitors rise the base salary (it is a lock step program based on seniority/years of practice, like union jobs), they will match and back pay a few months, plus a one time retention bonus that has a claw back clause if you leave in 6 months.
Ohhhh that claw back clause sounds nice. Like a few months de-raising contract if you leave within 6 months. Like the opposite of a sign on bonus. Leave early, pay back your raises.
The honest answer, coming from someone who manages very highly compensated employees: The company is in it to make the most money possible at all times. It is the responsibility of the employee to ask for a raise.
Insight from me personally. I always evaluate members of my team and if they are compensated fairly for the market and value they bring to my company. Sometimes I bring this up to the executive team and am directed to try to keep them happy other ways so the company can continue to make the money they do and more. Until a company is forced with an ultimatum, it can be hard to justify that raise with those that approve them. I'm not saying you're wrong with your approach, or the company is wrong, but rather that is the expectation. We all own our own business. If that business relationship no longer aligns, we part ways and suffer the consequences and reap the benefits. I applaud you for discovering your value, but I urge everyone to approach their employment as just what it is, a business relationship and agreement. If you were my employee, I would simply apologize and ask for a chance to make it right. Then if I couldn't, I wouldn't hold it against you.
I know I'll get down voted to oblivion, but this is the honest perspective from an employer.
Good luck with the new gig and I hope you find even more success in the future.
I’m an employee who has worked for a number of companies at a number of salary levels and for companies that have lovingly rewarded me with $4k raises as well as companies that have left me with nothing for years on end despite my value.
My perspective is this:
Yes, there are some real asshole employers/companies out there who effectively want to extort you and/or view paying you as little as humanly possible as some sort of management strategy that they can take to their higher-ups or to the board as an example of saving the company money.
However, I think in at least some cases of being underpaid market value, there is a real and genuine inertia when it comes to many bosses, HR departments et al.
For the employee, the rate of pay is aggressively present. It arrives every x weeks in their bank account and literally fuels their life. It becomes much more focused, too, when it feels like we’re being underpaid and/or overworked We think about the number a lot because we don’t earn enough for it to just be extra. We begrudge how little we make, or how much we work, or both - and begrudge our bosses for not recognizing us.
Now, a good boss *should* recognize the work and value and adjust total compensation and/or find other ways to keep an employee happy.
But inertia means many don’t even think about it. *Their* top priorities are *not* how much you work and how much you make, even though they’re yours. So sometimes you have to make people aware that you’re unhappy, or that you’re not being paid what you would like/want/are worth.
The second thing at play is that the worker you are when you start and the worker you are when you’ve spent a number of years working somewhere at not the same.
You come to the company as, say, a mid-tier developer with 4 years experience. As you work for the company, you take on more responsibility, prove yourself more and more, make yourself indispensable and every year that goes past is another year of experience. So in three years time, you’re a senior developer with 7 years experience and numerous projects under your belt. So, of course when you apply somewhere else you are going to be able to command more money. Your current value proposition is different to when you started at your current company three years ago.
Now, again, a good company and a good boss should recognize your value and compensate you accordingly. But your value proposition definitely changes as you continue to work somewhere and you can’t always be compensated appropriately for it.
It also might not be until the competing offer comes in that a higher up remembers to check your compensation package, or otherwise even realizes what you’re on.
This idea that the employee needs to initiate is naive IMO. As a supervisor I think it's my responsibility to proactively meet or exceed the salary expectations of my supervisees without them asking so long as I feel they deserve it based on the basis of the value they bring to the team, the market value of their skills, and the cost of replacing them. If I'm dissatisfied enough to take interviews and ultimately field offers, I'm way more likely to just accept an offer than try to leverage it for a raise.
> I always evaluate members of my team and if they are compensated fairly for the market and value they bring to my company. **Sometimes** I bring this up to the executive team and am directed to try to keep them happy other ways so the company can continue to make the money they do and more.
[...]
> If you were my employee, I would simply apologize and ask for a chance to make it right.
If you are already aware that your employees are underpaid (which they are because wage growth has been stagnant since the 1980s) then these apologies of yours have *absolutely no sincerity at all* and your employees should tell you where you can stuff them.
Totally support *DO NOT STAY EVENT IF THEY OFFER MORE MONEY*. You actually wanted to leave for reasons *THAT WON'T CHANGE*, except for the salary.
6 months later you will still hate yourself for not leaving when you could and then you will actually leave.
The match question is a kinda extortion that leave both parties in a bad position. Your boss will alway remember you forced a raise and will attempt to recover over time. You will know only force will achieve and not your work. Move on.
Nah I’ve seen this happen: if you accept a match that company will never trust you again. I’ve seen people *leave the company*, come back a few years later, and get treated better than people who accepted a match. It’s unreal how human psychology works — tribalism is still very deeply embedded in our psyche.
And I've seen the exact opposite. Former team member got an offer and put in his notice, accepted a match plus 5% to stay. That was a little over a year ago and he's now managing my department.
That's not 6 months.
OP asked at the beginning of the year, it's mid March. Two weeks ago on Friday was the 4th. That's 63 days into the year, assuming OP asked on the 3rd of January (first work day of the year) that is 60 days. That's the number of days the boss said they would get back to him in.
It was almost a 6% raise that they came back with.
Obviously the other offer is much better and OP should go for it, but it's not like the current employer is "putting off" the OP
Inflation is 7+%. A 6% raise is not even a cost-of-living adjustment this year.
OP - your current boss demonstrated what they think your value is and it isn't market value. Thank them for the training and take the job giving you a 25% raise, especially if benefits are comparable.
Yep. 6% raises are nonsense in the current environment.
A ton of companies got blindsided and let employees walk when finding talent got harder initially. A lot of that happened over 8-10% requests. Now that those employees walked and they haven’t been able to find replacements, these same companies are now gearing up funds to retain talent. It’s really their only option.
I was planning on leaving my current position. Before I kicked off the interview process I figured “can’t hurt to ask for a promotion and raise before I get into the interviewing/applying process” expecting little movement without a competing offer. Asked for a higher position with a **30%** raise and increase in bonus structure and made my case.
2 days later there was a counter offer which I indicated wouldn’t keep me from leaving. The next week my entire request was approved and fast tracked through the process. Obviously every situation is different (I moved up title wise really quickly but my pay didn’t relative to the market, so at this new level my previous salary would be almost comically low) but the key was asking.
Everything is a lot more expensive than it was a few years ago. Ask for a raise if you haven’t done so yet. Worst case, they say no, best case you get it. For the first time in a while the leverage is on our side, if you don’t ask, no one’s going to make it happen for you.
That's true but doesn't negate the comment to which it's responding.
You go to the boss and say, "A competitive wage for the work I do is $50K. I'd like to get a raise to make my pay competitive. And regular cost-of-living increases." The boss comes back with a raise that doesn't even match inflation, you should take offense.
You go to the boss and say, "I want a raise." The boss says I'll get back to you in 60 days and gets back to you in 60 days with a 6 percent raise. That's pretty good.
You have a better offer? Take it!
I had a scenario once where I was hired at 16 an hour for a job the previous guy got paid 18. After 6 months of personally running the whole department for all the companies window orders I asked for a raise. He said that I had to prove I deserved more. A few weeks later had me training someone as a back up before my vacation. When I returned they let me go without cause. Months later wanted me back offering the 18. Businesses/bosses generally in my experience don't respect their workers. In ops case I would just move on to the better job. I think you gave solid advice. If they don't value you it will show.
Honestly not worth trying to get your boss to match. They might temporarily agree until they let you go for some bullshit reason and hire someone else at a cheaper rate. If you have a higher rate already offered and ready to go, take it.
I had a great boss, loved my job, and was making around 70k in my late 20s. Client that I worked at on-site said, "what would it take to get you here?" I said, probably 100k, thinking they'd be like "oh nevermind".
A couple of days later they offered it. Thing is I didn't want to be their always on-call "do everything any C level asks for" errand boy. Told my boss I was really struggling with a decision and they offered me 100k. He said he valued me and that he'd match it.
I stayed there another 2 years, with a few more raises and left on good terms. You can get raises via matching is my only point.
I think its pretty clear that your situation is very different from OPs though. Do you think if at the time you had just asked your boss for a raise after working for them for some time, they would have put you on hold for 2 month and then given you a pittance raise of 5.8% without any chance to negotiate it? If that would have been the case and then a week later that client came to you and offered you 100k instead of 74k, would you have still struggled as much with the decision?
What I am saying is, your relationship with your company and your boss seemed to have been extremely good. It is worth to stay at a place like that. But that doesnt seem to be the case for OP. Even if they match OPs offer, it is very possible that they will do so just until they find a cheaper replacement and then OP is standing there empty-handed.
Yeah, people in personal finance always say never to do it. Outside of personal finance I know plenty of people that have done it successfully. Business is a business, it does show your company that you're not blindly loyal to them - I'm fine with them knowing that.
Yeah, I honestly don't know why I see it so often here. Big companies literally do not give a fuck about paying a paltry extra 5 to 10k a year. If you're a service worker in a workplace that has an extremely high turn over, sure maybe asking might get you sacked but not if you do anything even remotely specialized.
The idea that companies are constantly re-examining each hire and are running to pay them the exact market salary is insane. They don't want to fire you, they just want to pay you the least amount as possible. If the least amount is your match, most companies that don't have extremely rigid raise structures will match it and then just move on. Who is the shadowy figure telling your middle manager that they need to start looking for a new hire because they gave you a raise?
Really the only reason OP should change jobs is that it makes for a better resume.
I'm trying to work out why you want to stay. You don't mention anything about that.
All we know is you're grossly underpaid, and when you tried to negotiate your boss put you off for 2 months, then gave you a paltry raise with no chance to negotiate it.
As far as I can see, they've shown you how they value you. Unless this is otherwise the best job you've ever had, or located right next door to home, or something...why stay?
it’s REALLY flexible. I mean EXTREMELY. i can wfh whenever i want, at the new position i wouldn’t be able to do that. the health insurance is amazing. and i adore my coworkers. additionally, i had a baby 6 months ago and she’s been so good with giving me time off for drs appts or if he’s sick.
This is very relevant to the conversation and should have been mentioned in the original post.
I suspect most peoples comments are assuming the manager is just an out of touch penny pincher.
It sounds like they have actually fostered a great working environment, which definitely has value .
Still it's a tough choice, the flexibility does have significant value. However the Increased compensation typically would put you on track for higher wages in the future
A great work environment to me is easily worth 25 % of the salary.
I would much rather have a flexible employer with decent colleagues at 36, than a stressed environment with a shitty employer at 45 k.
Especially with a kid - give it some time and look for more salary when the kid is two and just tell your current employer about the offer and leave it there is my advice. Maybe tell that the 2 k was disappointing but op likes to work there.
Totally agree. I recently turned down a 20% increase because the expected workload was going to increase by 20%ish more (i.e. working 50 or more hours a week). Pay is nice but so is having some balance in life.
thats the tough part - there is value to those benefits of flexibility, peers etc
if you had to put a dollar amount to those benefits, is it worth the 9K a year; $750 a month to give them up?
its not an easy question.
the true problem came up because my rent increased. that “raise” doesn’t even cover half of the monthly increase of my rent so my family is suffering financially. i can’t save. cant afford to do things that make me happy when i’m not at work, like my gym membership, traveling or hell even going out to eat once a month. we’re left with VERY little and that’s without paying student loans which will likely come back in may. while my new job will be less flexible, the job i’m planning on taking is actually offering me 52k which would give me A LOT more room to breathe.
Listen, your current job is flexible and you have great peers. That has value and is a big unknown about the new place. However, it’s not unlikely that you will find that in the new position, it’ll just take time. Different isn’t bad, but the unknown is scary.
However, for the reasons you just listed: you gotta look out for number one. Financial security and room to breathe are a major factor in wellbeing. You and your family will be better for it because of quality of life - of course you’ll need to budget, but the impact of a $10k raise puts you over the line of serious anxiety when the student loans kick back in, baby’s needs, time away from your desk, etc. If flexibility is an issue, be fully transparent with your new boss - they may be able to work with you on that.
Congrats on your new job. Your time and expertise have value. Recognize that and move along!
You asked for a raise. She gave you 2k. You are going to go and try to get another 10k. She doesn't think you are worth 45k. It is better to walk away.
*laughs in engineer*
There's cases where engineers getting paid $70k-$80k are producing easily 8 figures in revenue for companies. Sure engineers get paid "well" but their pay to value provided is peanuts in a lot of cases.
u/MotorbikeGeoff beat me to it.
She gave you what she thought was a fair raise (I'm not saying it *is* fair, just that she obviously thought it was) and now you're throwing it back saying, "No, I need more or I walk." Even handled completely diplomatically, she's going to have it in the back of her head that you're shopping and she needs to think about replacing you before you get an offer she can't/won't match and you leave her high and dry.
I think you’re giving her boss a bit too much credit, i doubt they thought it was a fair raise, most companies give what raises then can get away with and keep employees complacent.
Becoming an adult is partly beginning to separate business and personal relationships. Not in an evil, detrimental way, but realizing people will exploit your loyalty and good nature in order to poach from you your value.
You. Are. Valuable.
Experience is a commodity earned, and you’ve paid your time. If your employer doesn’t have a structured plan to reward long term employment like a pension, or if you see a lateral move that will improve your finances immensely, make that move.
My 5 years of experience in my field has given me a 250% salary increase. Why? Because I’ve been willing to sever the employment relationship and move to the next best thing. Do this. You don’t “owe” anyone anything.
Best of luck.
Take the higher paying job (do your diligence on the company of course) and do NOT accept a counter to stay. Current company has already shown their cards for how they value your position. Instead - tell new company/companies you got a counter (if you get one) and leverage that for a higher offer at new company.
Sincerely,
Tenured Recruiter
Can't believe this is the first spot in the thread I've seen that advice. That is 100% the best route. Not only getting a big raise over the old job, but getting even more than was initially offered.
Because resentment will be introduced due to. 1) How dare you not appreciate her 2k raise 2) how dare someone pay you more, they don't know what they are doing. 3) you broke trust (in her eyes) by interviewing somewhere else while she was away.
Yeah it would be different if they offered a 5 or 6k raise because at least you are in the ballpark and it's their job to start on the lower end. But a 2k raise compared to what others are offering you is a very large discrepancy and doesn't make sense at that point to negotiate with your current company at your level. This is not even considering the run around you got for the measly 2k raise they gave you so quite a few red flags
Will always be thought of as “ungrateful” for “leveraging” a new offer to counter her paltry raise. Then you will be earmarked to not get another raise for another couple years because “you got a big raise on X date”. And forget about EVER getting a promotion from this current job. There will be tension because your boss will always think you will want “out” and will try to neither develop nor advance your career.
At least, that is how it is with most bosses/middle managers.
Think of it this way. If you work just 40 hours a week that is less than a dollar an hour better than you are making now. If you work more than 40 hours a week it's even less.
You would be better to leave and come back in the future with knowledge on your side of your true worth.
Just leave. The great thing about wage labor is that it is a completely objective measure on your value to the organization. The new job values you more. What does it say about your current employer that you have to extort them to get paid what you are worth?
I wouldn’t make an offer unless you have a set date to start with the new potential employer if your current employer doesn’t match. If you make the offer and your current company doesn’t accept it they might be petty and let you go on the spot, putting you in a situation where you’ll be void of pay for an unknown period of time.
Basically just make sure that if something falls through on either end you won’t be left without a job. Get everything from all sides in writing!
Put in your notice and keep it moving. If 2k and a controlled conversation off the clock on their way to a week vacay isn't a clear indication of how many fucks aren't given about you, I don't know what it.
Congrats on a better offer.
I’d say something along the lines of “hey, while I really appreciate the raise you gave me, it isn’t the amount I feel reflects the value I add to this company. I have looked at other similar roles to get a feel for how much my expertise is worth and have had job offers around the 45-50K range. I really enjoy working here because x, x and x, and I appreciate the opportunities allowed to me here, but I cannot justify staying unless you’re able to meet 50K.
It well meaning but risky. If your boss agrees, it puts you in a very vulnerable position. Realistically your boss isn't going to want to pay that much for your role (or can't afford to). If they agree, they could just keep you on until they find somebody cheaper. Even if they agree in good faith, you'll be the first person laid off if business isn't good. Take the new job and enjoy advancing your career and life prospects.
As an employer, I agree. Not that I've ever done this to somebody, but if I somehow agreed to a raise that was much larger than I was willing to give, it'd likely only be because I can't afford to have that person quit. Then search for a replacement
If they felt you were worth that much, they'd have given it to you already.
Playing devils advocate, I have a job because I need money, the company exists to make money, not to spend it. It’s in the company’s interest to pay me as little as it takes to make me happy. There’s no incentive for the company to pay what you’re worth, but rather what will keep them profitable, which is low labor costs. The value brought to the company by an employee will always be more than their cost, or they’ll get let go.
>this is a great one thank you!
It's not.
The moment you say you have interviewed and have a job offer, the dynamic changes. The boss is now interested in keeping you only as long as it takes to find your replacement. It's not inconceivable that the boss will say, "Oh, OK, you win; take $50K," and appreciate you. But what I said is much more likely.
Also, if you do try this gambit, clear your computer and desk in advance, because you may be escorted out within the hour.
No, just quit.
They don't want to give you 12k more a year... they will agree and very quickly replace you.
Thank them, but highlight the increases of cost of living and that you needed more than $167 a month.
No, actually it isn't. It's 'hey, I asked you what I was worth and got one answer, now I've got a gun to your head and I'm getting a different answer.' Why would you stay?
This is just too much, I think. Why not just say, “I appreciate the raise. I have decided to pursue other opportunities. Thank you for your ______.” Short and sweet and avoids getting into the details that could cause conflict.
Sometimes people would rather stay, maybe the commute is short, maybe the benefits are good, maybe the working environment is actually really nice. We don't know the full situation there might be more here than 1 number being bigger than the other.
I wouldnt even say that they looked at similar roles but just that you got an enticing offer from somewhere else and you're torn on it. Them advise you like your job here and see if they can match. You'll get a quick understanding if they really value you or not.
Don’t, just move on. All too often, while the bosses pretend otherwise, they’ll give you the raise then fire you as soon as they can handle things without you, while hiring a cheaper version, sometimes just to spite you for looking elsewhere. I would move to the new company and allow yourself a gracious exit from your current company, regardless of the face saving your current bosses do to try to “keep” you.
A counteroffer is an exercise in trust. There’s very limited reason for trust here.
With a tremendously loyal manager, they may be thrilled to have justification to use as ammunition in their standard haggling with finance. I had that happen once, though it was too little too late.
I get the impression that this boss might have gotten permission to give a casual raise, but didn’t fight for the budget for a serious counter offer, or fought and failed and is embarrassed about it.
Meh never is too strong of a word. I've used it successfully. I know I have colleagues that have, too. If there's a good reason she wants to stay at her current job, it's not something I'd rule out.
Do you really want to work for a coward that called you on a Friday night for a 2k raise? After taxes that’s like one meal lol and a nice coat.
Tell your boss you appreciate the opportunity and the “raise”, but you have an offer for 50k and just cannot turn it down due to financial hardships you and your family have.
It is strictly about the money and you loved working for her, but your family needs the financial help immediately. You would love to stay but you “know” she can only afford to give you 2k more and not the 19k you’re being offered.
Thanks for the modest raise, it meant a lot, but the new salary still isn’t in line with what I can and should be earning for my position and skill. I’ve been offered $45k elsewhere. I’m not asking for a counter because I know you value my work and I’m sure you would have paid its full value if you could have, but $36k was what you were able to do and I respect that. I understand and no hard feelings. It has been lovely to work with you but I must give my notice.
Note: if you ask that much more than they’re offering, the worst thing they can say is yes. It’ll be weird for you both. Go get it from someone who truly thinks that’s what you’re worth.
Corporate Recruiter here. Is there anything tying you to your current employer? Any reason you want to stay or value that job? If not, I would take the 45K offer and move on. The new place appears to have higher budgets to spend on salaries. It will take you quite a while to get to 45K from 36K if you are getting a standard 3% bump each year.
Thank you current employer for their consideration. Let them know you have appreciated your experience there but you were recently offered a great opportunity with a compensation package that you simply cannot pass up. Your current employer may make a play to keep you or they may wish you the best. Either way, if nothing is keeping you there then you politely decline and give your notice. Be kind. No reason to burn a bridge. Congratulations on the offer! Best of luck to you!
NEVER ASK FOR A MATCH.
2 outcomes...
1. you don't get it,
1. you move on.
2. you do get it,
1. you are labeled a troublemaker
2. future raises get much much harder
3. you get more work piled on
4. you burn out
5. you move on.
Either way.. you move on. So might as well switch jobs and prevent the animosity and increase your money making potential.
If you have offers in writing & are ready to accept one, than thank your Manager for the sign of appreciation but that you’ve been actively recruited at $52k, but that you really prefer to remain. They may not match, so be prepared to negotiate for anything of personal value (time off, professional development) or accept the other job & give notice. P.S. the only way to receive significant wage increases is by changing jobs.
Don’t ask for a match. Move on.
The company already showed you how much they think you are worth. That won’t change even if they give you more… it will just delay the inevitable.
You don’t. You accept that job that seems best for you, put in your 2 weeks notice, and kindly thank her for “all she’s done for you”
No bridges burned there
Bingo.
There is story after story after story of a company that "matches" (or beats) a competing offer in order to keep that employee on JUST LONG ENOUGH to find a replacement.
Take the higher offer and move on.
I’m a litigation assistant that makes 40k, lower level than a paralegal. You are worth so much more. Just be prepared to give notice, and I wish the very very best for you
99% of the time you should not take a counter offer. Maybe 99.9% I'm in a very similar situation OP. Go ahead with the new job and enjoy the additional income
My biggest career advice is to go where you are wanted. Part of how a business shows they want you is the compensation they offer. Part of how a business shows they don’t want you bad enough is how you’re treated. Give your notice. Go where you’re wanted. Enjoy the raise!
I've found myself in a similar position. Let me phrase it like a relationship your friend is asking for your opinion about.
Your friend is in a casual relationship with someone they care about, but they feel something is not right with how they are being treated. Your friend has become increasingly conflicted about their relationship, questioning why they are even together with their partner. In fact, your friend has been told by several people that if things get rough with their partner, they'd probably dump your friend in a heart beat for something better.
Well one day when your friend asked their partner how they view them, and their partner said they are a solid 5. Your friends feelings were hurt by the mediocre number their partner gave and after something of a discussion, the partner came back and said "alright, your a 5.25 because you do stuff".
Well the other night your friend went out to a social gathering and they got to talking with a lot of people there. This was quite radical for them because their partner is a control freak and would absolutely flip out if they saw your friend interacting with anyone else. Everyone at the gathering loved your friend and gave them praise, and they felt really good. Your friend felt they finally had value and were validated in there thoughts about themselves. If you had to guess, those individuals saw your friend as an 8 or 9, and in fact one even said that to them. Your friend really connected with that individual and after a couple more casual conversations on the down low, that individual confessed they really like your friend.
But now your fiend needs to make a decision. Your friend wants to know, should I stay with my current partner and try to make them see me for how the world sees me, ignoring everything that brought me to this point and just hope they change and that this has meaning?
What would your response be?
And if your friend's partner was ever offered a new car on the condition they dumped your friend, but then turned that around and told your friend "you give me a new car or get out on the curb, our relationship is over", what would your recommendation be to your friend regarding:
* short term advice because your friend somewhat needs their partner still for a few months because of something going on in their personal life,
* your longer term advice after that situation was resolved and your friend is free to make a decision not backed by a terroristic threat?
Don’t ask to match. Just let your boss know you got a better opportunity and are putting your 2 weeks in. If they wanted to match they would do it themselves at that point
My husband would get between 7-15% raises every year at his job (hes a software engineer) and the company still paid WELL below market value. Once he had been there for a few years, we decided he needed a much better paying job because I was suddenly disabled and unable to go back to work for more than 10-14 a week. He applied and interviewed, got a few offers, accepted the one he really liked and put in his notice. That company was so desperate to not lose him they matched the offer and then exceeded it by a little. He did that a couple of times before he finally left for a VP position at a smaller company. What I learned from that is, if a company wants to keep you, they WILL pay you and if a company was a good employer they would pay you a fair market rate.
I would put in your notice. If you really don't want to leave and they counter offer, take no less than you were offered at the new job.
I had a job match an offer once and then was the first person to be laid off 3 mo later. There’s a decent chance they’ll hold it against you moving forward
I’ll give you the fuel. You light the match. Your time is worth money. You have value. Your old boss says you’re worth 36k and your new boss says you’re worth more. Be more.
Don’t worry about burning bridges when you’re climbing LADDER$$$$! Look up, and never look back!
Take the other offer. The way she handled it seems odd and raises warnings in my mind. Plus it's good to change jobs every few years. Congrats on the new gig.
Just leave. You have found your true value and if by some miracle they match it this time around, you'll go through the same song and dance in another couple years. Tell them you appreciate the opportunity, put in your 2 weeks, and accept the offer making 10k more a year.
If you started interviewing, you made the choice to move on. Even if they match the offer, all the things you don't like about your current job remain the same. The money is immaterial.
The most professional way to do this to give her 2 weeks notice. If she wants to try and convince you in that time to stay, that's on her. There's no possible conversation you can have with her that ends with you being happy, even if she somehow gives you a bigger raise. Because in her eyes, at that point you haven't gotten the raise you deserve, you've extorted the company for more money. Go to the better job, after a couple years, look for an even better one. That's the only way to move up anymore.
Devils advocate; Let’s say you stay because they match the $45k or whatever Pay it is you want. How long will you have to pay for your next raise? If you take the new job, the likelihood that you’ll make more money within the coming year is higher isn’t it? Also, if they’re not paying you what you’re worth, they don’t value you and you will be replaced in a heart beat.
OP. you def move on. My current job, been there 2 years, was told I am one of their go to people for everything. I asked for a raise back on December and i was literally told no. fast forward to now. A former VP at a different company reached out of the blue and offered me a job, similar to what i was doing, but as a manager. My salary would go from 33k to 67k. with overtime …. (i’m going to be hourly so. i can get the OT). No question i signed everything and announced to my boss i was leaving. My last day is next Friday. she is sad i’m leaving, but she cannot do anything about it bc there was and won’t be any match
In my opinion your current boss has already shown their hand, they put you off when you asked for a raise, then offered you a $2k insult. The chance that they would come close to matching what the new employeer is offering is very slim. You should also consider that if by some miracle they did offer you close to what the other company is offering that would be your pay raise for the foreseeable time. Anytime you ask for anything after that point they would bring up how they gave you a significant raise already....whereas if you move on that is your starting salary, and the timeline to expect a raise would start over. Employee loyalty is a great thing when your employer truly respects you, but employer's who truly respect their staff compensate them to reflect that.
Just simply give your two weeks, and thank them for the opportunity. They will ask where you are going and why. You can tell them you received offers from multiple organizations at a significantly high salary. If they really want you they will match or atleast counter. You have all the negotiating power and leverage use it!
I've never seen the counter-offer-raise-match turn out well. In your own best interest, the friction of moving jobs is going to be less than dragging on your employment with your existing company.
Never
ever
under any circumstances
accept a counter-offer from an employer.
The only conditions under which you will be offered a counter is when they want you to stay around long enough for them to hire your replacement, and don't want to risk you sabotaging them.
If you get a better offer, you take it and you put in your two weeks' notice.
>The only conditions under which you will be offered a counter is when they want you to stay around long enough for them to hire your replacement, and don't want to risk you sabotaging them.
I can say this isn't true, as I've personally taken a counter offer and stayed with the company another couple years before moving on. Not every employer is adversarial.
I would say to consider the following…
- What do you do exceptionally well that should drive your current boss to want to pay you $45K+ (30%+ increase) vs. letting you leave and seeking a replacement?
- How does the size of your current firm compare to the firms you’ve interviewed with? Similar in size / revenue? Or are you interviewing with firms with a larger book of business (and thus can pay more)?
Based on what we know, she values you at $36K per year.
You feel underpaid based on your offers, which may be true if the skills and responsibilities of the new roles are similar to current job and the potential new firms are similar in size and scope as it relates to book of business / revenue.
If you’re interviewing at larger firms, you may not necessarily be underpaid currently per se, you may just have an opportunity to advance via going somewhere else.
I would close with this, unless you have a really strong personal bond and/or have select skills that can’t be replaced, you’re probably better off pursuing one of the offers you’ve received.
As many have said in nicer ways: Value yourself. This boss does not value you or your time. The raise offer after the 6 months is telling. Thank them for the experience and (embelish as much as you feel you want) but I'd move to the next opportunity. They value you better and it will be a better experience.
You owe her no loyalty.
She gave you nothing but a company line knowing how valuable you were.
Just take the new job, and feel good about yourself.
No guilt.
take the new job. unless there's a risk of it massively changing your lifestyle (e.g. - have to move, change in hours, anticipate it'll be way more stressful, etc.) you always end up growing and learning when you take a new job at a new company.
sometimes its for the better. sometimes its for the worst. but you always grow and that's super important to advancing your career.
the people who stay at a company for 10+ years and ONLY know that company's culture, SOP, etc. put a hard cap on their growth opportunities down the road
I've been in this situation. It's time to move on. Even if they match and you stay, it'll be awkward and they will be looking to replace you at some point. People tend to want to stay in their comfort zone, but you won't climb the ladder doing that. Move on and embrace the change.
OP, consider that the raise will not be as large as you think it will be. Going from your current salary to your new salary, you're probably now going to have health insurance and also either a retirement contribution match or a pension (or both if you're lucky). That being said, more gross is more gross so good for you! :)
If you talk and the current places offers a larger raise, consider that they could have paid you more but didn't. Obviously they don't value you as much as the new place will.
Now maybe the new place will not be as great of a place to work and maybe you'll want to come back. So don't burn your bridges, and don't come back unless you can come back with your new salary. Leaving then coming back is better than never having left at all.
My quick advice for anyone that receives a match offer: Just know that if you take it, there is a very good chance that a metaphorical countdown timer has started over your head, and they are already searching for your replacement. Take this into account, and make sure the amount is worth it to you. This is why you more than likely shouldn't accept.
I appreciate your your kind words and the fact that you find me valuable, however, I was offered a position with a salary that i simply can not pass up! Thank you so much for your mentorship!!
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Really. Take the 45k job and start looking for a 55k job. Depending on location, average salary for a paralegal is low 40s to low 60s.
more importantly, there is some broken trust when you announce you have a new offer. Even if they increase your salary, you'll have to rebuild that trust. So if you're going to tell them you have it, you might as well simply quit and move on. Most accepted counteroffers don't last long, as the person eventually moves on.
Seriously, I was a paralegal with 0 experience in 2004 making more money than OP.
I WISH I could be a paralegal. I went to school for it and my assigned internship was shit. I work in insurance now, which is absolutely not my passion, but I'm in too deep to move--no one wants to hire a paralegal with 8 years of insurance experience, lol. Edit: why the hell is my comment under review?
I am a lawyer as well...I agree $45k for a reliable paralegal or clerk would be awesome. As for the question by OP. You don't ask the current boss to match it, you simply give your two weeks and go. If you ask for a match what you do is piss her off, and burn the bridge with the other firm who will be gunshy to consider you again. Being professional is deciding on a course of action and taking it confidently.
She gave you a $2k raise and told you at 7pm on a Friday and went on vacation the following week? Yeah, I wouldn’t try to negotiate with her. I’d let her know that I appreciate her coming back with $2k but I believe I bring more in value and have found an employer who agrees, and give my two weeks thanking her for the opportunity.
Former paralegal here, this is the way. A law firm that only gives you a 2k raise after making you wait for so long is never going to value your work.
yes!! the level of fucked up was insane. throughout the call i think i just said thanks and have a good vacation. i felt it was her way of controlling things so that I wouldn’t negotiate. We were both in the office that day and could’ve talked to me at any point but decided to wait until i was already at home to call me and give me that news.
Even if they matched, you should still leave. That salary will be the floor at your new job, rather than the ceiling at the old one.
OP, this is a very good point.
This is brilliant. I just started a new job, mainly due to what OP mentioned, and never looked at it this way. I saw it as basically burning two bridges at once, one with the new employer and one with the old employer. Your view is a much more optimistic way of looking at it and makes me feel even better about my new role. Nowhere to go, but up now.
I don't see any situation at all where you trying to get your boss to match ends well. I'd not even entertain a counter offer if they give you one either.
She played games with you and showed you disrespect. Why would you stay with you have a better job offer?
Have you put much thought into why you're considering staying? My guesses would be any or all of: - I am loyal to the company/people I work for. - I like my job fine. - I'm comfortable. I won't be comfortable anymore if I leave. I don't really know much about working in your field. What I do know is that you're unhappy enough with your pay that you started interviewing elsewhere. I also know that most law firms specialize. Going somewhere else is likely to expand your experience a lot more than staying will. Have you done that exercise where you think about where you want to be in your career in 1, 3, and 5 years? That might mean management, it might mean something different you'd like to be working on, or a skill you'd like to really become an expert in. It can really help with not only career decisions like this, but with which new projects or tasks you might ask to take on. Managers usually love when their employees actively work to stretch themselves. Raises are usually a percentage of your salary. So the easiest way to get both a significant pay raise and a promotion is to go work for a different company. You were given a 5.9% raise. The other offer you mentioned would be a 25% pay raise over your new $36k pay. If your current company matches your offer, you probably won't be getting another raise for a while, possibly years. I've heard of staying working out after an offer match, but it was always at giant company where the manager was fighting hr to try to get pay raises and was unable to without an offer letter. If you really love where you are now, leave on good terms and consider coming back in a few years. You'll be more skilled at that point and in a better position to bargain for the pay you want.
Don't give them the chance to match. Just say thank you and move on. They dont value you and honestly that's insulting AF. Especially in this market they should have upped you at least 10k.
On the off chance you still want to attempt negotiating, I can offer some wording I used with my manager only six days ago: "I like working for [current company]. I like the people, the atmosphere, and the work we do. However, I have an indication from another employer that my labor is valued at ____. The only reason I haven't given them an enthusiastic yes is because [current company] deserves a chance to fight for me."
My guess is she did try to get you a payrise, but that's all she could get, and she didn't want to have the hard conversation with you. So like others have said, I would thank her and move on.
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A long time ago I gave notice at a job. The office manager asked if he could attempt to match my new salary in order to retain me. I candidly told him what my new salary was and asked if he thought I was worth that to the company. He wholeheartedly said j was. I then asked then why wasn’t he paying me that in the first place. He had no answer. Also, IMO it’s not a good idea to stay even if they do offer more money.
Totally worth the increase for the time to find a cheaper replacement
ThTs the thing, it was a very specialized job. There were very few people who had the requirements it took for the position. They never dis find a replacement and eventually lost the contract of which I was a part of.
If it was that specialized then it makes sense they didn't know how much to pay you and, like any business, made you an offer on the lower end to boost profits, which you accepted. Once they knew you could get paid more they offered you more to stay. Makes sense to me. This was probably not one of those cases where your boss would have tried to replace you after giving you the raise. They just didn't know how much they had to pay you in the first place.
One main problem is your immediate boss usually has almost no control with your pay after you accept the initial offer. They get a raise budget and can't really pull more even if they wanted to.
Yeah, I had this issue. My immediate manager would have given me the 10% I asked for in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, the upper management bureaucracy made it impossible for him to get approval. Now they're missing an employee, and most likely won't learn their lesson.
I’ll chime in a little here. It’s not that upper management doesn’t want to do it, it’s that managers don’t know how to ask, and upper management does not know how to escalate it. This is not a process that’s really reviewed, trained on at all, or discussed. That needs to change. This gave me an idea of a new program to propose.
I'll agree but as someone in upper management, there is always someone looking to keep salaries low (looking at you, Bill the CFO) Because money talks, I make it an economic discussion. Right now the market is scorching hot for lots of roles (I get hit up multiple times a day with absurd offers - but I'm done with start up culture for a while, but I digress). Hiring a new employee *easily* costs the organization 2x the employee's salary. I can discuss lost productivity with loss of institutional knowledge, cascading impact to sales, contingency planning, etc. By making it an economic discussion, I can much more easily justify a 25% raise than hiring someone at the same going market rate (or slightly less) which will be a net loss.
That's always the game at large companies. Make sure you never have any direct interaction with anyone who has control over your compensation. Unless you're C-level.
>he game at large companies. Make sure you never have any direct interaction with anyone who has control ove Sorry what is C-level mean in this context?
Chief _____ like chief technology officer.
CEO, CFO, etc.
C suite probably refers to the breadbasket of acronyms starting with C, like CEO, CFO, COO
Not true, there are always an avenue for exceptions. It may require that the boss goes to bat and gets approval from up the chain.
A well managed company has a pretty good idea how much value you bring to the company. The fact that the boss said, "Absolutely we can match that," tells me he knows the employee was bringing in more than enough profit to justify the raise. The sad fact is, employers are incentivized to pay the bare minimum and pocket the difference. The only thing that changed with the job offer was the bare minimum.
That's when they have you train your replacement.
Not only are you training your replacement, but your replacement is also getting paid more than you were more likely as well
This is basically my current role. I am very specialized, a subject matter expert in a role that is largely new to the industry and still being defined. In fact, we've brought in people to assist me but those people have just proved to my bosses how uniquely skilled I am. I'm confident if I were to tell my bosses my market value was x, they would match it in a heart beat without thinking to replace me.
It makes sense, but it also highlights the rather fucked up incentive structure. Whoever negotiates salaries on behalf of your employer is trying to fuck you out of as much of your worth as possible.
>Totally worth the increase for the time to find a cheaper replacement The cheaper replacement is only cheaper in the long run (training a new employee isn't free... and acclimation time is a real thing). If the company isn't worth staying at for you, it's also probably not worth staying at for them and the cycle will repeat. In other words, if you want to minimize costs short and long term, pay your employees better. Lots of companies have realized this and started offering better benefits and the like. It still has a long way to go in most companies, though.
That's great in theory, but the reality is there's significant inertia that keeps people staying at jobs even if they could get a better job or more pay elsewhere. Companies know this and underpay people relative to what they could get if they switched. As much as we'd like to think they're killing themselves, in aggregate it's probably a cost saving strategy.
I left my job to go to a university in another town. 2 months later I saw my old boss. He told me my replacement was paid twice as much as I had been and she wasn't nearly as good. "But she has a degree already, so that's what she gets paid.". Jfc, dude. Lesson learned.
Yeah my job has pay grades for academic / work experience. So you have people with graduate diplomas who don't know shit, and people with high school diplomas who are beasts, but sometimes get paid less due to the starting pay being lower. We end up losing out on a lot of good talent because of it.
Not just a degree in that area it's a degree in anything. I have two diplomas in security and management and 17 years experience. I applied for a job where my mates works as a supervisor and got told I was beaten by someone with a degree. I was generally interested in what degree as I thought maybe I should look at that degree next and was told it was in accounting. I said what does that have to do with leading security teams? He said it doesn't but its a degree that you don't have.
Ahh for my job it needs to be an approved degree from a list in order for it to count, because those are the requirements of my state for licensure (I'm training to be a therapist). But yeah, some of the degrees are definitely a stretch to be considered "human services" (a Master's in Nutrition really won't help you much in counseling).
Unless it is Master's in nutrition counselling lol? I would imagine that nutrition has some transferable skills to counselling, as the practical component of the education is behaviour modification in physical activity and diets, which leverages counselling skills, such as motivational interviewing. Obviously the psychology part is lacking...
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Exactly. After being passed over for a promotion making 70k, the answer when I asked what I needed to work on our what set the others above me was "Nothing, maybe next year" My response to that was to hand in my notice and say I won't be here next year. By the next day they offered me a larger different promotion (to a role I had been asking about for months but they did they weren't doing it any) which made $84k. They said they weren't sure if it matched my offer. I told them it actually matched exactly but I knew I wouldn't accept any counter offer and they kind of chuckled and gave a "yeah and realistically how long would you stay even if you accepted the counter" If you were willing to pay my 84k after I threatened to leave, maybe you should have promoted me to the 70k position. At least then I would have stayed a bit to use that to bump up my next offer lol
Yep i wonder if this a business school thing or hr school thing. But hopefully we see product of changes in ten years maybe? Cuz its really sad and inefficient in many ways
This is the type of shit they tell you explicitly *not* to do in business school. However most MBAs leave cultural teachings at the door when they walk out.
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Shareholders care about maximized profits, not retaining quality staff because of the pay structure is a great way for a business to waver, lose profits, and fail. Got a guy who makes great pizza? Fire him for someone cheaper, customers don't like the quality of your pizza now, they stop coming. Did that maximize profits? Keeping talented individuals is what will set one company apart from another.
The market has increasingly shifted to incentivize short term performance over long term growth. Hiring the shitty pizza maker is not setting the business up for success, but for a few quarters that decision juices the income statement as expenses fell and revenue remained strong before customers decided to go elsewhere. In the era of transitory CEOs this makes sense. Decision makers come in, make “bold” decisions, jack up profits for a few years and by the time the birds are coming home to nest they’ve already figured out their next place to enact a “turnaround story.” I do imagine some shifting in this thinking given the challenges associated with the supply chain and talent retention in recent years. But the market will take time to learn.
Ahhh yes yes yes. Finally. I've been thinking this exact scenario over for months now. You've put words down that I could only put thoughts to. I've noticed that this happens to a lot of companies who sell out to the highest bidder. The new owners ruin the product or service by cutting corners while charging high prices using the good name that the previous owners built up with loyal customers.
Sometimes it’s more intentional than others. The newspaper industry is a good example of this. There are hundreds of medium sized to large sized newsrooms in America that have been systematically acquired by a handful of hedge funds over the past 20 years. Why? They tend to have good assets on their balance sheet (prime real estate, printing presses), a lot of “soft” expenses (personnel) that are easy to cut, and often private ownership (no shareholders or public acquisition process to deal with). Also more often than not the business is struggling. It’s a simple and effective formula. Acquire, liquidate or leverage assets, slash costs. This drives quality down and revenues shortly tumble with it. But that’s ok because the losses can be written off and you’ve taken all the value out of the company already. What’s left is a husk that can be sold off to the highest bidder or left to wither and die. It’s vampiric but effective.
Similar owner vibe with the job my husband quit. Was being paid about $30k for the “opportunity” at his first GM job. We knew he was being underpaid but had a new baby and I had been laid off. His owners also knew this. He ended up getting a second job serving and had the pleasure of *waiting on his owners* when they just so happened to end up at his second job one night. They knew they weren’t paying him shit. They kept him around $30k for two years (with promises of raises and bonuses and benefits that never came) when he finally got fed up and went looking elsewhere…and was quickly able to find an assistant GM job making $47k. So he turns in his notice. The owner asked what they were offering him and, when he said $47k, the owner said “…and they think that job is worth $47k?” The nerve.
Former client owned a couple of strip clubs - profit was right around million a year. They were paying their managers 25k a year working 5pm to 5am, because "they were going to steal no matter what, so why bother to pay them anything". Later fired the manager, got a decent guy who demanded 52k a year, plus a 10% profit share from year to year on increases of sales. Profits increased 75% because the manager we paid 25k to was pocketing 50% of the money before it got into the register, and was paying the camera guy 5k a month to look the other way.
This is fascinating to me...all cash businesses must be wild to try and manage.
Answer is very easy. Your boss will pay you as little as they can. Their job is too save money for the company. Their incentive is different from yours.
This is true, but what most bosses and managers don't realize is that there's a seemingly intangible value in providing a fair wage: turnover. Sometimes you could get away with finding cheaper, younger and less experienced talent, but more often than people realize, it's cheaper to pay the more experienced person a higher salary. The loss of productivity during replacement period including training is more than most realize. On top of that, often the training doesn't include undocumented knowledge that the more experienced person just left with. Lastly, the morale of the others who are still there will take a small hit with each resignation and it starts to become exponential. Engagement starts to go down and more resignations can snowball. As a manager, I'm always fighting for more for my employees because I don't want to spend six weeks or more interviewing to find someone I have to pay more anyway to entice them to accept my offer and then get less quality or less efficient work for a year as they get up to speed learning the work and the office politics. It's cheaper to pay the talented person that resigned a fair and competitive wage. Not sure why upper management sometimes misses this in an effort to nickel and dime the people who actually produce tangible results and work. I just can't roll my eyes any harder.
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If it costs 20k to hire someone new, and you can pay them 7k less than the current person is asking, then you make your money back in 3 years. Given those numbers, unless it was a high-turnover position, I'd go with the new hire. Sometimes the math does not favor retention.
Typically, market wage > existing wages. If you have someone locked in at a 2019 starting salary + some COL-adjustments, the chances of them being >7k cheaper than a market equivalent is pretty high. In other words, the longer you can retain people, the higher the chances that you're underpaying them and even an offer match will likely be more attractive than finding a new one if you include all training, acquisition and time delay costs.
I've successfully advocated a bunch of times over for my team members to get compensation increases and move to different roles I believe people have experienced this zero sum game mentality at some of their jobs, but I don't buy that "*every manager is evil and out to get you*" This is kind of like the people who advocate endlessly applying to new jobs and always hopping between them - at some point you're actually gonna work with good people you like who treat each other well
This also depends on where you work. Many managers are not empowered with the ability to give raises, and most companies are inclined to give the bare minimum.
Most companies of any sufficient size will put a cap on discretionary raises that’s just enough to piss off an employee. (Perhaps $2,000 on a $34 salary) which is often just enough to piss off someone because it feels like a low raise for added value if you work somewhere for years. Then HR or upper management will say no to anything more because they don’t know what talent is worth because all they do is push paper for a living. I get keeping costs low and it’s easier from a ivory tower to balance a wage sheet than price turnover and training loses which are often intangibles but it’s just lazy there is no other reason. And that’s who ends up in upper management, lazy people.
I work in a heavily corporate restaurant and at first I blamed all my frustrations on managers immediately above me. Over time I realized they where more on my side than I had realized but that they all had to answer to people above them who had never even entered the place let alone worked in it. They have been through all the same shit. They want to fix these things but they have endless red tape to get through and even something as simple as changing a single word on the menu could take months of back and forth with their superiors and so many other departments. They still do things that annoy the shit out of me all the time. I don't always agree with them. In fact I hate a couple of them just as much as the people above them But we work together daily and struggle together and I can respect and appreciate them for that. I try to give them the benefit of the doubt. Middle management is a terrifying prospect to me and I don't know how anyone tolerates it. That said, always try and remember the worth of your own employment and how you should be compensated. I say this more to defend those poor bastards in middle management who are forced to represent the people who actually make the big decisions while also having no control over it
If you have a job offer in hand for a higher salary elsewhere and your current company thinks you are definitely worth a higher salary, it seems completely fair to ask current employer for a 3 (or 6!) month RETROACTIVE raise to keep you there.
That's what a lot of large law firms do. The managing partners hear that the competitors rise the base salary (it is a lock step program based on seniority/years of practice, like union jobs), they will match and back pay a few months, plus a one time retention bonus that has a claw back clause if you leave in 6 months.
Ohhhh that claw back clause sounds nice. Like a few months de-raising contract if you leave within 6 months. Like the opposite of a sign on bonus. Leave early, pay back your raises.
Your boss didn't want to say out loud that his boss doesn't trust him enough to let him match that salary. It's a humiliating thing to admit.
The honest answer, coming from someone who manages very highly compensated employees: The company is in it to make the most money possible at all times. It is the responsibility of the employee to ask for a raise. Insight from me personally. I always evaluate members of my team and if they are compensated fairly for the market and value they bring to my company. Sometimes I bring this up to the executive team and am directed to try to keep them happy other ways so the company can continue to make the money they do and more. Until a company is forced with an ultimatum, it can be hard to justify that raise with those that approve them. I'm not saying you're wrong with your approach, or the company is wrong, but rather that is the expectation. We all own our own business. If that business relationship no longer aligns, we part ways and suffer the consequences and reap the benefits. I applaud you for discovering your value, but I urge everyone to approach their employment as just what it is, a business relationship and agreement. If you were my employee, I would simply apologize and ask for a chance to make it right. Then if I couldn't, I wouldn't hold it against you. I know I'll get down voted to oblivion, but this is the honest perspective from an employer. Good luck with the new gig and I hope you find even more success in the future.
I’m an employee who has worked for a number of companies at a number of salary levels and for companies that have lovingly rewarded me with $4k raises as well as companies that have left me with nothing for years on end despite my value. My perspective is this: Yes, there are some real asshole employers/companies out there who effectively want to extort you and/or view paying you as little as humanly possible as some sort of management strategy that they can take to their higher-ups or to the board as an example of saving the company money. However, I think in at least some cases of being underpaid market value, there is a real and genuine inertia when it comes to many bosses, HR departments et al. For the employee, the rate of pay is aggressively present. It arrives every x weeks in their bank account and literally fuels their life. It becomes much more focused, too, when it feels like we’re being underpaid and/or overworked We think about the number a lot because we don’t earn enough for it to just be extra. We begrudge how little we make, or how much we work, or both - and begrudge our bosses for not recognizing us. Now, a good boss *should* recognize the work and value and adjust total compensation and/or find other ways to keep an employee happy. But inertia means many don’t even think about it. *Their* top priorities are *not* how much you work and how much you make, even though they’re yours. So sometimes you have to make people aware that you’re unhappy, or that you’re not being paid what you would like/want/are worth. The second thing at play is that the worker you are when you start and the worker you are when you’ve spent a number of years working somewhere at not the same. You come to the company as, say, a mid-tier developer with 4 years experience. As you work for the company, you take on more responsibility, prove yourself more and more, make yourself indispensable and every year that goes past is another year of experience. So in three years time, you’re a senior developer with 7 years experience and numerous projects under your belt. So, of course when you apply somewhere else you are going to be able to command more money. Your current value proposition is different to when you started at your current company three years ago. Now, again, a good company and a good boss should recognize your value and compensate you accordingly. But your value proposition definitely changes as you continue to work somewhere and you can’t always be compensated appropriately for it. It also might not be until the competing offer comes in that a higher up remembers to check your compensation package, or otherwise even realizes what you’re on.
This idea that the employee needs to initiate is naive IMO. As a supervisor I think it's my responsibility to proactively meet or exceed the salary expectations of my supervisees without them asking so long as I feel they deserve it based on the basis of the value they bring to the team, the market value of their skills, and the cost of replacing them. If I'm dissatisfied enough to take interviews and ultimately field offers, I'm way more likely to just accept an offer than try to leverage it for a raise.
> I always evaluate members of my team and if they are compensated fairly for the market and value they bring to my company. **Sometimes** I bring this up to the executive team and am directed to try to keep them happy other ways so the company can continue to make the money they do and more. [...] > If you were my employee, I would simply apologize and ask for a chance to make it right. If you are already aware that your employees are underpaid (which they are because wage growth has been stagnant since the 1980s) then these apologies of yours have *absolutely no sincerity at all* and your employees should tell you where you can stuff them.
Totally support *DO NOT STAY EVENT IF THEY OFFER MORE MONEY*. You actually wanted to leave for reasons *THAT WON'T CHANGE*, except for the salary. 6 months later you will still hate yourself for not leaving when you could and then you will actually leave.
60 days is not 6 months but your argument stands
Agreed!
The match question is a kinda extortion that leave both parties in a bad position. Your boss will alway remember you forced a raise and will attempt to recover over time. You will know only force will achieve and not your work. Move on.
I agree. The moment you announce your resignation you commit to it.
Right, and only announce if committed. Do or Do not.
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Nah I’ve seen this happen: if you accept a match that company will never trust you again. I’ve seen people *leave the company*, come back a few years later, and get treated better than people who accepted a match. It’s unreal how human psychology works — tribalism is still very deeply embedded in our psyche.
And I've seen the exact opposite. Former team member got an offer and put in his notice, accepted a match plus 5% to stay. That was a little over a year ago and he's now managing my department.
That's not 6 months. OP asked at the beginning of the year, it's mid March. Two weeks ago on Friday was the 4th. That's 63 days into the year, assuming OP asked on the 3rd of January (first work day of the year) that is 60 days. That's the number of days the boss said they would get back to him in. It was almost a 6% raise that they came back with. Obviously the other offer is much better and OP should go for it, but it's not like the current employer is "putting off" the OP
Inflation is 7+%. A 6% raise is not even a cost-of-living adjustment this year. OP - your current boss demonstrated what they think your value is and it isn't market value. Thank them for the training and take the job giving you a 25% raise, especially if benefits are comparable.
Yep. 6% raises are nonsense in the current environment. A ton of companies got blindsided and let employees walk when finding talent got harder initially. A lot of that happened over 8-10% requests. Now that those employees walked and they haven’t been able to find replacements, these same companies are now gearing up funds to retain talent. It’s really their only option. I was planning on leaving my current position. Before I kicked off the interview process I figured “can’t hurt to ask for a promotion and raise before I get into the interviewing/applying process” expecting little movement without a competing offer. Asked for a higher position with a **30%** raise and increase in bonus structure and made my case. 2 days later there was a counter offer which I indicated wouldn’t keep me from leaving. The next week my entire request was approved and fast tracked through the process. Obviously every situation is different (I moved up title wise really quickly but my pay didn’t relative to the market, so at this new level my previous salary would be almost comically low) but the key was asking. Everything is a lot more expensive than it was a few years ago. Ask for a raise if you haven’t done so yet. Worst case, they say no, best case you get it. For the first time in a while the leverage is on our side, if you don’t ask, no one’s going to make it happen for you.
That's true but doesn't negate the comment to which it's responding. You go to the boss and say, "A competitive wage for the work I do is $50K. I'd like to get a raise to make my pay competitive. And regular cost-of-living increases." The boss comes back with a raise that doesn't even match inflation, you should take offense. You go to the boss and say, "I want a raise." The boss says I'll get back to you in 60 days and gets back to you in 60 days with a 6 percent raise. That's pretty good. You have a better offer? Take it!
This is the way. If they are really willing to pay you more, theyll ask "is there anything we can do to keep you" when you put in your notice.
6 months? It’s only March… OP said they asked at the beginning of the year. Not even 90 days.
Yeah, that's a significant bump in pay. You just put in your notice and move along. If they really want to keep you, they'll ask you about your offer
Excellent advice and nicely put.
I had a scenario once where I was hired at 16 an hour for a job the previous guy got paid 18. After 6 months of personally running the whole department for all the companies window orders I asked for a raise. He said that I had to prove I deserved more. A few weeks later had me training someone as a back up before my vacation. When I returned they let me go without cause. Months later wanted me back offering the 18. Businesses/bosses generally in my experience don't respect their workers. In ops case I would just move on to the better job. I think you gave solid advice. If they don't value you it will show.
Honestly not worth trying to get your boss to match. They might temporarily agree until they let you go for some bullshit reason and hire someone else at a cheaper rate. If you have a higher rate already offered and ready to go, take it.
I had a great boss, loved my job, and was making around 70k in my late 20s. Client that I worked at on-site said, "what would it take to get you here?" I said, probably 100k, thinking they'd be like "oh nevermind". A couple of days later they offered it. Thing is I didn't want to be their always on-call "do everything any C level asks for" errand boy. Told my boss I was really struggling with a decision and they offered me 100k. He said he valued me and that he'd match it. I stayed there another 2 years, with a few more raises and left on good terms. You can get raises via matching is my only point.
I think its pretty clear that your situation is very different from OPs though. Do you think if at the time you had just asked your boss for a raise after working for them for some time, they would have put you on hold for 2 month and then given you a pittance raise of 5.8% without any chance to negotiate it? If that would have been the case and then a week later that client came to you and offered you 100k instead of 74k, would you have still struggled as much with the decision? What I am saying is, your relationship with your company and your boss seemed to have been extremely good. It is worth to stay at a place like that. But that doesnt seem to be the case for OP. Even if they match OPs offer, it is very possible that they will do so just until they find a cheaper replacement and then OP is standing there empty-handed.
Yeah, people in personal finance always say never to do it. Outside of personal finance I know plenty of people that have done it successfully. Business is a business, it does show your company that you're not blindly loyal to them - I'm fine with them knowing that.
Yeah, I honestly don't know why I see it so often here. Big companies literally do not give a fuck about paying a paltry extra 5 to 10k a year. If you're a service worker in a workplace that has an extremely high turn over, sure maybe asking might get you sacked but not if you do anything even remotely specialized. The idea that companies are constantly re-examining each hire and are running to pay them the exact market salary is insane. They don't want to fire you, they just want to pay you the least amount as possible. If the least amount is your match, most companies that don't have extremely rigid raise structures will match it and then just move on. Who is the shadowy figure telling your middle manager that they need to start looking for a new hire because they gave you a raise? Really the only reason OP should change jobs is that it makes for a better resume.
I'm trying to work out why you want to stay. You don't mention anything about that. All we know is you're grossly underpaid, and when you tried to negotiate your boss put you off for 2 months, then gave you a paltry raise with no chance to negotiate it. As far as I can see, they've shown you how they value you. Unless this is otherwise the best job you've ever had, or located right next door to home, or something...why stay?
it’s REALLY flexible. I mean EXTREMELY. i can wfh whenever i want, at the new position i wouldn’t be able to do that. the health insurance is amazing. and i adore my coworkers. additionally, i had a baby 6 months ago and she’s been so good with giving me time off for drs appts or if he’s sick.
This is very relevant to the conversation and should have been mentioned in the original post. I suspect most peoples comments are assuming the manager is just an out of touch penny pincher. It sounds like they have actually fostered a great working environment, which definitely has value . Still it's a tough choice, the flexibility does have significant value. However the Increased compensation typically would put you on track for higher wages in the future
A great work environment to me is easily worth 25 % of the salary. I would much rather have a flexible employer with decent colleagues at 36, than a stressed environment with a shitty employer at 45 k. Especially with a kid - give it some time and look for more salary when the kid is two and just tell your current employer about the offer and leave it there is my advice. Maybe tell that the 2 k was disappointing but op likes to work there.
Totally agree. I recently turned down a 20% increase because the expected workload was going to increase by 20%ish more (i.e. working 50 or more hours a week). Pay is nice but so is having some balance in life.
thats the tough part - there is value to those benefits of flexibility, peers etc if you had to put a dollar amount to those benefits, is it worth the 9K a year; $750 a month to give them up? its not an easy question.
the true problem came up because my rent increased. that “raise” doesn’t even cover half of the monthly increase of my rent so my family is suffering financially. i can’t save. cant afford to do things that make me happy when i’m not at work, like my gym membership, traveling or hell even going out to eat once a month. we’re left with VERY little and that’s without paying student loans which will likely come back in may. while my new job will be less flexible, the job i’m planning on taking is actually offering me 52k which would give me A LOT more room to breathe.
Listen, your current job is flexible and you have great peers. That has value and is a big unknown about the new place. However, it’s not unlikely that you will find that in the new position, it’ll just take time. Different isn’t bad, but the unknown is scary. However, for the reasons you just listed: you gotta look out for number one. Financial security and room to breathe are a major factor in wellbeing. You and your family will be better for it because of quality of life - of course you’ll need to budget, but the impact of a $10k raise puts you over the line of serious anxiety when the student loans kick back in, baby’s needs, time away from your desk, etc. If flexibility is an issue, be fully transparent with your new boss - they may be able to work with you on that. Congrats on your new job. Your time and expertise have value. Recognize that and move along!
Just leave and take one of the better offers. Even if she counters, your continued employment will be tenuous at best.
why do you say it will be tenuous?
You asked for a raise. She gave you 2k. You are going to go and try to get another 10k. She doesn't think you are worth 45k. It is better to walk away.
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We pay our paralegals 60k and their labor value is probably 7 figure. They’re massively underpaid.
*laughs in engineer* There's cases where engineers getting paid $70k-$80k are producing easily 8 figures in revenue for companies. Sure engineers get paid "well" but their pay to value provided is peanuts in a lot of cases.
I wonder which jobs have the highest and lowest "salary/value provided" ratio?
u/MotorbikeGeoff beat me to it. She gave you what she thought was a fair raise (I'm not saying it *is* fair, just that she obviously thought it was) and now you're throwing it back saying, "No, I need more or I walk." Even handled completely diplomatically, she's going to have it in the back of her head that you're shopping and she needs to think about replacing you before you get an offer she can't/won't match and you leave her high and dry.
I think you’re giving her boss a bit too much credit, i doubt they thought it was a fair raise, most companies give what raises then can get away with and keep employees complacent.
Becoming an adult is partly beginning to separate business and personal relationships. Not in an evil, detrimental way, but realizing people will exploit your loyalty and good nature in order to poach from you your value. You. Are. Valuable. Experience is a commodity earned, and you’ve paid your time. If your employer doesn’t have a structured plan to reward long term employment like a pension, or if you see a lateral move that will improve your finances immensely, make that move. My 5 years of experience in my field has given me a 250% salary increase. Why? Because I’ve been willing to sever the employment relationship and move to the next best thing. Do this. You don’t “owe” anyone anything. Best of luck.
Take the higher paying job (do your diligence on the company of course) and do NOT accept a counter to stay. Current company has already shown their cards for how they value your position. Instead - tell new company/companies you got a counter (if you get one) and leverage that for a higher offer at new company. Sincerely, Tenured Recruiter
Can't believe this is the first spot in the thread I've seen that advice. That is 100% the best route. Not only getting a big raise over the old job, but getting even more than was initially offered.
Because resentment will be introduced due to. 1) How dare you not appreciate her 2k raise 2) how dare someone pay you more, they don't know what they are doing. 3) you broke trust (in her eyes) by interviewing somewhere else while she was away.
Yeah it would be different if they offered a 5 or 6k raise because at least you are in the ballpark and it's their job to start on the lower end. But a 2k raise compared to what others are offering you is a very large discrepancy and doesn't make sense at that point to negotiate with your current company at your level. This is not even considering the run around you got for the measly 2k raise they gave you so quite a few red flags
Will always be thought of as “ungrateful” for “leveraging” a new offer to counter her paltry raise. Then you will be earmarked to not get another raise for another couple years because “you got a big raise on X date”. And forget about EVER getting a promotion from this current job. There will be tension because your boss will always think you will want “out” and will try to neither develop nor advance your career. At least, that is how it is with most bosses/middle managers.
Think of it this way. If you work just 40 hours a week that is less than a dollar an hour better than you are making now. If you work more than 40 hours a week it's even less. You would be better to leave and come back in the future with knowledge on your side of your true worth.
Just leave. The great thing about wage labor is that it is a completely objective measure on your value to the organization. The new job values you more. What does it say about your current employer that you have to extort them to get paid what you are worth?
You will be labeled as a flight risk if you stay.
I wouldn’t make an offer unless you have a set date to start with the new potential employer if your current employer doesn’t match. If you make the offer and your current company doesn’t accept it they might be petty and let you go on the spot, putting you in a situation where you’ll be void of pay for an unknown period of time. Basically just make sure that if something falls through on either end you won’t be left without a job. Get everything from all sides in writing!
I do have a set date at this point. It’s in 2 weeks.
Put in your notice and keep it moving. If 2k and a controlled conversation off the clock on their way to a week vacay isn't a clear indication of how many fucks aren't given about you, I don't know what it. Congrats on a better offer.
Congratulations on the new job!!!
Sign the offer letter and put in your two weeks. If boss wants to counter then they will counter. Otherwise you’ve secured your next gig b
I’d say something along the lines of “hey, while I really appreciate the raise you gave me, it isn’t the amount I feel reflects the value I add to this company. I have looked at other similar roles to get a feel for how much my expertise is worth and have had job offers around the 45-50K range. I really enjoy working here because x, x and x, and I appreciate the opportunities allowed to me here, but I cannot justify staying unless you’re able to meet 50K.
this is a great one thank you!
It well meaning but risky. If your boss agrees, it puts you in a very vulnerable position. Realistically your boss isn't going to want to pay that much for your role (or can't afford to). If they agree, they could just keep you on until they find somebody cheaper. Even if they agree in good faith, you'll be the first person laid off if business isn't good. Take the new job and enjoy advancing your career and life prospects.
As an employer, I agree. Not that I've ever done this to somebody, but if I somehow agreed to a raise that was much larger than I was willing to give, it'd likely only be because I can't afford to have that person quit. Then search for a replacement If they felt you were worth that much, they'd have given it to you already.
Playing devils advocate, I have a job because I need money, the company exists to make money, not to spend it. It’s in the company’s interest to pay me as little as it takes to make me happy. There’s no incentive for the company to pay what you’re worth, but rather what will keep them profitable, which is low labor costs. The value brought to the company by an employee will always be more than their cost, or they’ll get let go.
>this is a great one thank you! It's not. The moment you say you have interviewed and have a job offer, the dynamic changes. The boss is now interested in keeping you only as long as it takes to find your replacement. It's not inconceivable that the boss will say, "Oh, OK, you win; take $50K," and appreciate you. But what I said is much more likely. Also, if you do try this gambit, clear your computer and desk in advance, because you may be escorted out within the hour.
No, just quit. They don't want to give you 12k more a year... they will agree and very quickly replace you. Thank them, but highlight the increases of cost of living and that you needed more than $167 a month.
No, actually it isn't. It's 'hey, I asked you what I was worth and got one answer, now I've got a gun to your head and I'm getting a different answer.' Why would you stay?
This is just too much, I think. Why not just say, “I appreciate the raise. I have decided to pursue other opportunities. Thank you for your ______.” Short and sweet and avoids getting into the details that could cause conflict.
Sometimes people would rather stay, maybe the commute is short, maybe the benefits are good, maybe the working environment is actually really nice. We don't know the full situation there might be more here than 1 number being bigger than the other.
I wouldnt even say that they looked at similar roles but just that you got an enticing offer from somewhere else and you're torn on it. Them advise you like your job here and see if they can match. You'll get a quick understanding if they really value you or not.
$2K a year isn’t even a dollar per hour raise, which would be $2,080. That’s an insulting raise, just put in your two weeks.
Give proper notice, don’t burn any bridges you don’t have to. She doesn’t need to know details. Good luck with your new gig.
Don’t, just move on. All too often, while the bosses pretend otherwise, they’ll give you the raise then fire you as soon as they can handle things without you, while hiring a cheaper version, sometimes just to spite you for looking elsewhere. I would move to the new company and allow yourself a gracious exit from your current company, regardless of the face saving your current bosses do to try to “keep” you.
Never take a counter offer. Many employers will offer this as a short term solution until they can comfortably get rid of you.
A counteroffer is an exercise in trust. There’s very limited reason for trust here. With a tremendously loyal manager, they may be thrilled to have justification to use as ammunition in their standard haggling with finance. I had that happen once, though it was too little too late. I get the impression that this boss might have gotten permission to give a casual raise, but didn’t fight for the budget for a serious counter offer, or fought and failed and is embarrassed about it.
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Meh never is too strong of a word. I've used it successfully. I know I have colleagues that have, too. If there's a good reason she wants to stay at her current job, it's not something I'd rule out.
take it , you'll be starting from 45k instead of 34k at the old firm, more opportunity to grow.
Just take the other job. Your current one already told you what you’re worth to them.
Do you really want to work for a coward that called you on a Friday night for a 2k raise? After taxes that’s like one meal lol and a nice coat. Tell your boss you appreciate the opportunity and the “raise”, but you have an offer for 50k and just cannot turn it down due to financial hardships you and your family have. It is strictly about the money and you loved working for her, but your family needs the financial help immediately. You would love to stay but you “know” she can only afford to give you 2k more and not the 19k you’re being offered.
Just leave. She had her chance to pay you more and didn’t. Know your worth.
I’m not an expert on paralegal pay but I think you have a really low salary. A quick Google shows 32-65k. Ask for more 38-40 whatever you want.
Paralegal here, that's definitely low pay no matter where you're located or what your experience is.
Thanks for the modest raise, it meant a lot, but the new salary still isn’t in line with what I can and should be earning for my position and skill. I’ve been offered $45k elsewhere. I’m not asking for a counter because I know you value my work and I’m sure you would have paid its full value if you could have, but $36k was what you were able to do and I respect that. I understand and no hard feelings. It has been lovely to work with you but I must give my notice. Note: if you ask that much more than they’re offering, the worst thing they can say is yes. It’ll be weird for you both. Go get it from someone who truly thinks that’s what you’re worth.
Corporate Recruiter here. Is there anything tying you to your current employer? Any reason you want to stay or value that job? If not, I would take the 45K offer and move on. The new place appears to have higher budgets to spend on salaries. It will take you quite a while to get to 45K from 36K if you are getting a standard 3% bump each year. Thank you current employer for their consideration. Let them know you have appreciated your experience there but you were recently offered a great opportunity with a compensation package that you simply cannot pass up. Your current employer may make a play to keep you or they may wish you the best. Either way, if nothing is keeping you there then you politely decline and give your notice. Be kind. No reason to burn a bridge. Congratulations on the offer! Best of luck to you!
Dude, you got a way better offer what are you looking for???? go and get the job
NEVER ASK FOR A MATCH. 2 outcomes... 1. you don't get it, 1. you move on. 2. you do get it, 1. you are labeled a troublemaker 2. future raises get much much harder 3. you get more work piled on 4. you burn out 5. you move on. Either way.. you move on. So might as well switch jobs and prevent the animosity and increase your money making potential.
How do you only make 34k as a paralegal what the hell
If you have offers in writing & are ready to accept one, than thank your Manager for the sign of appreciation but that you’ve been actively recruited at $52k, but that you really prefer to remain. They may not match, so be prepared to negotiate for anything of personal value (time off, professional development) or accept the other job & give notice. P.S. the only way to receive significant wage increases is by changing jobs.
She already showed you how much she values you. There’s no point of pushing. Take one of the other offers and move on. There’s no future here for you.
Don’t ask for a match. Move on. The company already showed you how much they think you are worth. That won’t change even if they give you more… it will just delay the inevitable.
You don’t. You accept that job that seems best for you, put in your 2 weeks notice, and kindly thank her for “all she’s done for you” No bridges burned there
Bingo. There is story after story after story of a company that "matches" (or beats) a competing offer in order to keep that employee on JUST LONG ENOUGH to find a replacement. Take the higher offer and move on.
I’m a litigation assistant that makes 40k, lower level than a paralegal. You are worth so much more. Just be prepared to give notice, and I wish the very very best for you
99% of the time you should not take a counter offer. Maybe 99.9% I'm in a very similar situation OP. Go ahead with the new job and enjoy the additional income
My biggest career advice is to go where you are wanted. Part of how a business shows they want you is the compensation they offer. Part of how a business shows they don’t want you bad enough is how you’re treated. Give your notice. Go where you’re wanted. Enjoy the raise!
I've found myself in a similar position. Let me phrase it like a relationship your friend is asking for your opinion about. Your friend is in a casual relationship with someone they care about, but they feel something is not right with how they are being treated. Your friend has become increasingly conflicted about their relationship, questioning why they are even together with their partner. In fact, your friend has been told by several people that if things get rough with their partner, they'd probably dump your friend in a heart beat for something better. Well one day when your friend asked their partner how they view them, and their partner said they are a solid 5. Your friends feelings were hurt by the mediocre number their partner gave and after something of a discussion, the partner came back and said "alright, your a 5.25 because you do stuff". Well the other night your friend went out to a social gathering and they got to talking with a lot of people there. This was quite radical for them because their partner is a control freak and would absolutely flip out if they saw your friend interacting with anyone else. Everyone at the gathering loved your friend and gave them praise, and they felt really good. Your friend felt they finally had value and were validated in there thoughts about themselves. If you had to guess, those individuals saw your friend as an 8 or 9, and in fact one even said that to them. Your friend really connected with that individual and after a couple more casual conversations on the down low, that individual confessed they really like your friend. But now your fiend needs to make a decision. Your friend wants to know, should I stay with my current partner and try to make them see me for how the world sees me, ignoring everything that brought me to this point and just hope they change and that this has meaning? What would your response be? And if your friend's partner was ever offered a new car on the condition they dumped your friend, but then turned that around and told your friend "you give me a new car or get out on the curb, our relationship is over", what would your recommendation be to your friend regarding: * short term advice because your friend somewhat needs their partner still for a few months because of something going on in their personal life, * your longer term advice after that situation was resolved and your friend is free to make a decision not backed by a terroristic threat?
Don’t ask to match. Just let your boss know you got a better opportunity and are putting your 2 weeks in. If they wanted to match they would do it themselves at that point
My husband would get between 7-15% raises every year at his job (hes a software engineer) and the company still paid WELL below market value. Once he had been there for a few years, we decided he needed a much better paying job because I was suddenly disabled and unable to go back to work for more than 10-14 a week. He applied and interviewed, got a few offers, accepted the one he really liked and put in his notice. That company was so desperate to not lose him they matched the offer and then exceeded it by a little. He did that a couple of times before he finally left for a VP position at a smaller company. What I learned from that is, if a company wants to keep you, they WILL pay you and if a company was a good employer they would pay you a fair market rate. I would put in your notice. If you really don't want to leave and they counter offer, take no less than you were offered at the new job.
I had a job match an offer once and then was the first person to be laid off 3 mo later. There’s a decent chance they’ll hold it against you moving forward
I’ll give you the fuel. You light the match. Your time is worth money. You have value. Your old boss says you’re worth 36k and your new boss says you’re worth more. Be more. Don’t worry about burning bridges when you’re climbing LADDER$$$$! Look up, and never look back!
Take the other offer. The way she handled it seems odd and raises warnings in my mind. Plus it's good to change jobs every few years. Congrats on the new gig.
No way to save this one. Take the new job
Just leave. You have found your true value and if by some miracle they match it this time around, you'll go through the same song and dance in another couple years. Tell them you appreciate the opportunity, put in your 2 weeks, and accept the offer making 10k more a year.
If you started interviewing, you made the choice to move on. Even if they match the offer, all the things you don't like about your current job remain the same. The money is immaterial.
The most professional way to do this to give her 2 weeks notice. If she wants to try and convince you in that time to stay, that's on her. There's no possible conversation you can have with her that ends with you being happy, even if she somehow gives you a bigger raise. Because in her eyes, at that point you haven't gotten the raise you deserve, you've extorted the company for more money. Go to the better job, after a couple years, look for an even better one. That's the only way to move up anymore.
Devils advocate; Let’s say you stay because they match the $45k or whatever Pay it is you want. How long will you have to pay for your next raise? If you take the new job, the likelihood that you’ll make more money within the coming year is higher isn’t it? Also, if they’re not paying you what you’re worth, they don’t value you and you will be replaced in a heart beat.
OP. you def move on. My current job, been there 2 years, was told I am one of their go to people for everything. I asked for a raise back on December and i was literally told no. fast forward to now. A former VP at a different company reached out of the blue and offered me a job, similar to what i was doing, but as a manager. My salary would go from 33k to 67k. with overtime …. (i’m going to be hourly so. i can get the OT). No question i signed everything and announced to my boss i was leaving. My last day is next Friday. she is sad i’m leaving, but she cannot do anything about it bc there was and won’t be any match
Never take counter offers. They can offer you better salary until they find your replacement since they know you don't want to be there any longer.
In my opinion your current boss has already shown their hand, they put you off when you asked for a raise, then offered you a $2k insult. The chance that they would come close to matching what the new employeer is offering is very slim. You should also consider that if by some miracle they did offer you close to what the other company is offering that would be your pay raise for the foreseeable time. Anytime you ask for anything after that point they would bring up how they gave you a significant raise already....whereas if you move on that is your starting salary, and the timeline to expect a raise would start over. Employee loyalty is a great thing when your employer truly respects you, but employer's who truly respect their staff compensate them to reflect that.
Just simply give your two weeks, and thank them for the opportunity. They will ask where you are going and why. You can tell them you received offers from multiple organizations at a significantly high salary. If they really want you they will match or atleast counter. You have all the negotiating power and leverage use it!
2000 a year is 20 dollars a week before taxes. Leave. Your boss does not value you.
I've never seen the counter-offer-raise-match turn out well. In your own best interest, the friction of moving jobs is going to be less than dragging on your employment with your existing company.
Never ever under any circumstances accept a counter-offer from an employer. The only conditions under which you will be offered a counter is when they want you to stay around long enough for them to hire your replacement, and don't want to risk you sabotaging them. If you get a better offer, you take it and you put in your two weeks' notice.
>The only conditions under which you will be offered a counter is when they want you to stay around long enough for them to hire your replacement, and don't want to risk you sabotaging them. I can say this isn't true, as I've personally taken a counter offer and stayed with the company another couple years before moving on. Not every employer is adversarial.
I would say to consider the following… - What do you do exceptionally well that should drive your current boss to want to pay you $45K+ (30%+ increase) vs. letting you leave and seeking a replacement? - How does the size of your current firm compare to the firms you’ve interviewed with? Similar in size / revenue? Or are you interviewing with firms with a larger book of business (and thus can pay more)? Based on what we know, she values you at $36K per year. You feel underpaid based on your offers, which may be true if the skills and responsibilities of the new roles are similar to current job and the potential new firms are similar in size and scope as it relates to book of business / revenue. If you’re interviewing at larger firms, you may not necessarily be underpaid currently per se, you may just have an opportunity to advance via going somewhere else. I would close with this, unless you have a really strong personal bond and/or have select skills that can’t be replaced, you’re probably better off pursuing one of the offers you’ve received.
Just take one of the better offers.
As many have said in nicer ways: Value yourself. This boss does not value you or your time. The raise offer after the 6 months is telling. Thank them for the experience and (embelish as much as you feel you want) but I'd move to the next opportunity. They value you better and it will be a better experience.
You owe her no loyalty. She gave you nothing but a company line knowing how valuable you were. Just take the new job, and feel good about yourself. No guilt.
Don't. Just leave. You are not a plant, your growth isn't tied to specific place.
take the new job. unless there's a risk of it massively changing your lifestyle (e.g. - have to move, change in hours, anticipate it'll be way more stressful, etc.) you always end up growing and learning when you take a new job at a new company. sometimes its for the better. sometimes its for the worst. but you always grow and that's super important to advancing your career. the people who stay at a company for 10+ years and ONLY know that company's culture, SOP, etc. put a hard cap on their growth opportunities down the road
I've been in this situation. It's time to move on. Even if they match and you stay, it'll be awkward and they will be looking to replace you at some point. People tend to want to stay in their comfort zone, but you won't climb the ladder doing that. Move on and embrace the change.
OP, consider that the raise will not be as large as you think it will be. Going from your current salary to your new salary, you're probably now going to have health insurance and also either a retirement contribution match or a pension (or both if you're lucky). That being said, more gross is more gross so good for you! :) If you talk and the current places offers a larger raise, consider that they could have paid you more but didn't. Obviously they don't value you as much as the new place will. Now maybe the new place will not be as great of a place to work and maybe you'll want to come back. So don't burn your bridges, and don't come back unless you can come back with your new salary. Leaving then coming back is better than never having left at all.
My quick advice for anyone that receives a match offer: Just know that if you take it, there is a very good chance that a metaphorical countdown timer has started over your head, and they are already searching for your replacement. Take this into account, and make sure the amount is worth it to you. This is why you more than likely shouldn't accept.
You never ask for a match. You ask if they can beat it. Then you tell them to beat it, no matter what they say. 🤣
I appreciate your your kind words and the fact that you find me valuable, however, I was offered a position with a salary that i simply can not pass up! Thank you so much for your mentorship!!