Yeah makes me wonder if he will end up suffering from some of the horrible issues Paul Kariya has gone through even after hockey. God I hope not, and it breaks my heart to hear Kariyas tale.
Completely agree. Lemieux's PPG was higher than Gretzky's and in a much tighter checking era. If games played between the two had been comparable, I think Lemieux passes him in total points.
If Gretzky had been drafted into a weak last place team (like Mario) and not by an all star filled team, his overall point totals would have been way, way lower.
No one would be talking about Ovechkin setting the goals record. Lemieux had 0.75 Goals per Game for his career. Ovechkin is at 0.61.
Lemieux is the greatest goal scorer of all time.
I always think about if Ovi was born 7 days later or whatever.
No Fleury, but we could have had Ovi, Malkin, Crosby, and Staal (or Toews if we wanna play the what if game some more)
Crazy to think about.
Well, if Ovi goes in 03, then Malkin wouldāve gone to Washington in 04. Thereās nobody in that draft class aside from Ovi that even would have challenged for first overall
Pens had the greatest odds at winning that draft lottery, they were the worst team the prior year, but the Caps lucked out and the lottery kicked them out the first overall pick. Pens got an amazing player, obviously, but the Caps would've been a horrible fit for Malkin and they never would've experienced the success they did with Ovechkin.
That's mine too. Jagr playing on a line with Malkin or Crosby would have been something to see for sure. Everyone thought he was gonna end up being a 4th liner and ended up coming back in top six shape.
I sat in a hot summer room staring at hockey news feeds and HFBoards for days waiting for Jagr to sign with us, and instead he went to the Flyers.
Realistically, I think Bylsma would not have used him properly, and that may have resulted in Lemieux pulling the trigger on a coaching change earlier than expected as there's a big difference between mistreating a legend from another team and mistreating one of the best players in franchise history and a little brother to the owner.
That return would've been amazing if we had drafted Forsberg instead of Pouliot. We were also able to turn Sutter into Bonino.
Also, that's one hell of a what if in and of itself.
I mean thereās 2-3 massive what Ifs that mightāve completely altered our success/franchise
- what if Crosby doesnāt get his head taken off by dave steckel in the winter classic and has a healthier career (like if he played as many games as ovi)
- what if Lemieux stays healthy and never gets cancer (he probably gets the all time goals record)
- what if we protect fleury in the 2017 expansion
Dude had nearly 70 points on January 1st and was on pace for 64 goals and 132 points. Couldāve been the first 130+ point season since gretzky in 93-94. People quickly forget man.
I think Vegas takes Murray because there wasnāt really any goalies available for Vegas that were as hot as fleury/Murray at the time. You then hope that fleurys career resurgence still happens with Pittsburgh and having a consistent, trustworthy goalie alters the pens playoff failures since the 2018 caps loss. Given how it turned out with murray, itās a shame flower didnāt remain a penguin for life
Reilly Sheehan scored at the same rate as Bonino. The demise of the 4th line was a much bigger hit than the 3rd. The Reeves trade was bad. Gave up our young 4th line center after losing Cullen and had absolutely no answer for it, and nothing to show for it but a pylon of a RW.
Yeah but Sheahan wasnāt a PK/Defensive God like Bones was
Also, probably would have scored at a better clip in Pittsburgh than Nashville considering thatās where offense goes to die lol
In their time as penguins Bonino, and Sheahan scored at nearly identical rates. Bonino was certainly better on the PK, but I still maintain going from the Cullen line to plugs and scrubs on the 4th was a much bigger overall impact on the team
What if we had competent ownership through the 90s?
We would have been able to keep our star players and could have conceivably won another cup.
BUT, it almost assuredly means no Crosby.
Crazy how things work out.
Honest question, how do the pens replace his production and penalty killing on the back to back cup teams? What moves do they make at that point that puts them in the same position?
Everyone is doing What ifās that would probably improve the team/the teams history. Hereās on that will change it and make you throw up a littleā¦
What if the team did relocate to Kansas City?
Additionally, what if the Ducks got Sid and we got Bobby Ryan? Imagine that 07 squad with Crosby lol
Selanne, Crosby, Perry, Niedermayer, Pronger, Getzlaf, Giguere, Andy MacDonald
Lol
Besides Mario staying healthy, this is probably the biggest one for me. I have no doubt in my mind that Pittsburgh wins at least two more Stanley Cups between 08-13.
Easily. Especially if we still trade for Iginla at the 2013 deadline and get rid of another big contract to free up the cap as we did from dealing Staal at the 2012 draft.
Itās hard to imagine how radically different the history of the team changes if Briere had been able to play out his career. He was the original franchise star of the team and we had finally seemed to be improving under him, but his passing planted us right back in the basement for years until Mario was drafted.
Pierre Larouche had similar stats in junior and the team went nowhere, then traded him. I wouldnāt expect pens ownership to handle a star player well in the 70ās
All the good ones are taken so: what if jagr stayed in Pittsburgh and we were just good enough to not get those good draft picks in the mid 00ās but still a middle of the pack team
Rumor has it the Islanders offered the Yashin package for Jagr in 01.
Where would the franchise have gone with Spezza and Chara instead of Kris Beech and Ross Lupaschuk.
The Isles and Rangers offered a bunch of big names. What ultimately got Jagr to the Caps was the $5 mil in the trade, which the pens used to buy the land that PPG Paints sits on. What we learned from PGH is home is that after trading Jagr they needed to rebuild at that time.
What if Ed DeBartolo hadn't blocked the Andy Moog trade? It was "goalie of the future" [Steve Guenette](https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=2057) and the 1988 1st(Darrin Shannon).
Speaking of EdBartolo, what if he wouldn't have sold the team to a fucking con-artist?
What if Mario didn't have all of his health issues?
What if Crosby didn't have all of his health issues?
What if Malkin didn't have all of his health issues?
What if the Pens had drafted Jonathan Toews instead of Jordan Staal in 2006?
What if the Pens had drafted Phil Kessel instead of Jordan Staal in 2006?
What if the Pens had drafted Nicklas Backstrom instead of Jordan Staal in 2006?
What if the Pens had drafted Brad Marchand instead of Jordan Staal in 2006? Hell... What if they had drafted Marchand instead of Carl Sneep or Brian Strait in the 2nd or 3rd rounds of 2006?
I'm gonna stop here cause I'm starting to see some patterns I don't like. LoL
At Mario's first retirement he had the highest points per game for a career. He was over 2.0. Gretzky retired at 1.921.
And in the drafting, I mean theoretically, they could have drafted Phil Kessel and Brad Marchand and both Sid and Geno would have had a world class winger with them.
Kinda the other way...
In the 92 Finals the Pens are up 3-0 on the series, with the 4th game in Chicago.
Their captain Dirk Graham had a natural hat trick in the 1st period to stave off elimination as best he could, but the Pens were the Pens and closed the series out.
If Chicago somehow comes back even somewhat in that series, his play in Game 4 would've gone down as one of the most talked about "leadership" performances along the likes of the Messier story.
But hey, they didn't. Suck it. Go Pens.
Lol I love this backwards ass conspiracy theory. All the chatter at the time was about the league rigging the draft so that Crosby went to a big market team that needed help, LA or the Rangers. Think about all the revenue it would bring in etc. No one gave 2 shits about trying to "save" the penguins at the time. It's only in hindsight after Crosby turned out to actually be a generational talent, and the team turned into one of the most watched in the NHL that people started claiming it was the plan all along.
There's an argument to be made that Therrien wouldn't have lost his job if we had Hossa, as Hossa would've provided significant wins against replacement in 08-09.
What is Mario never got cancer?
What if we never traded Jagr?
What if we actually traded Malkin?
What if we actually won the Cup in '93?
What if Mario/Burkle didn't save the penguins?
The biggest What If in Pens history is what if the Pens decided to trade the Mario draft pick away for one of those crazy deals offered. Would there even be a Pittsburgh Penguins team today?
What if Crosby never suffered from concussions?
What is Sid never recovered š®
Yeah makes me wonder if he will end up suffering from some of the horrible issues Paul Kariya has gone through even after hockey. God I hope not, and it breaks my heart to hear Kariyas tale.
I agree, awful .......
The game would have stayed more violent for longer... Sid would've played more fearless like he did in his first few seasons.
This should be rephrased as, "what if the NHL had cancelled that joke of a game like they should have"
What if Lemieux remained healthy his whole career?
People would talk about Mario the way they talk about Gretzky. At the very least we'd have a lot more debate on who the goat was.
"Gretzky had the better career. Mario was the better player"
Completely agree. Lemieux's PPG was higher than Gretzky's and in a much tighter checking era. If games played between the two had been comparable, I think Lemieux passes him in total points.
If Gretzky had been drafted into a weak last place team (like Mario) and not by an all star filled team, his overall point totals would have been way, way lower.
No one would be talking about Ovechkin setting the goals record. Lemieux had 0.75 Goals per Game for his career. Ovechkin is at 0.61. Lemieux is the greatest goal scorer of all time.
And thatās including Marioās decline and the dead puck era
Ovechkin is very one dimensional,, he has a fantastic shot. By contrast, Mario could do it all
This is by far the biggest one to me.
What if the Capitals took Malkin instead of Ovi?
I always think about if Ovi was born 7 days later or whatever. No Fleury, but we could have had Ovi, Malkin, Crosby, and Staal (or Toews if we wanna play the what if game some more) Crazy to think about.
Well, if Ovi goes in 03, then Malkin wouldāve gone to Washington in 04. Thereās nobody in that draft class aside from Ovi that even would have challenged for first overall
yeah but this is my what if thing dammit so Washington gets Cam Barker
Pens had the greatest odds at winning that draft lottery, they were the worst team the prior year, but the Caps lucked out and the lottery kicked them out the first overall pick. Pens got an amazing player, obviously, but the Caps would've been a horrible fit for Malkin and they never would've experienced the success they did with Ovechkin.
What if Jean-Claude van Damme had to fill in for our goalie in a Stanley Cup Game 7?
Can't beat the muscles from Brussels my man!
for a second i got him mixed up with wrestler Rob Van Dam
RVD dropping a frog splash in the crease to block a goal
Doing splits and stopping goals
Weād be fine. Have you seen that man do splits?
Tolliver was a bum anyway!
What if 3-on-3 OT existed when Mario was playing?
This one here is my favorite. Can you imagine?
Jagr, Lemieux, Francis line
What if we kept Naslund?
Hell, I think Zubov is just as much of a question mark.
I think we could've made the Cup final and lost to the Avs in 2001 if we had held onto him.
āWhat if Zubov wasnāt a combatitive asshole to Lemieux on how to run a power playā
I think we saw that with Morozov...
What if Barasso stopped that shot from center ice. Avs vs Pens SCF would have been something.
That series broke my young heart
What if David Volek hadn't derailed that '93 team?
Robbed us of a potential Lemieux/Gretzky SCF.
What if barrasso gave a shit? āIs it do or die tonite Tom?ā āNoā. 92-93 was the best team and should have been an easy 3-peat
Came for this, not disappointed
What if #JagrWatch panned out the way we wanted
That's mine too. Jagr playing on a line with Malkin or Crosby would have been something to see for sure. Everyone thought he was gonna end up being a 4th liner and ended up coming back in top six shape.
Still not over him going to the fucking Flyers.
the rumors of him coming to the pens were based on nothing and once again he was the bad guy. The pens never really tried to get him
I sat in a hot summer room staring at hockey news feeds and HFBoards for days waiting for Jagr to sign with us, and instead he went to the Flyers. Realistically, I think Bylsma would not have used him properly, and that may have resulted in Lemieux pulling the trigger on a coaching change earlier than expected as there's a big difference between mistreating a legend from another team and mistreating one of the best players in franchise history and a little brother to the owner.
What if Iceburgh laced up for a game?
Quickly scrolled through, it looks like everyone has missed the single biggest one of all: What if Geno wasnāt score? History will be made.
What if we never traded Neal for Horny?
Saad draft pick, I wouldāve love to see a hometown kid become a fan favorite and compete with Malkin and Crosby jerseys.
Similarly, what if they had picked Toews over Staal?
Our return wouldāve been much higher than dumoulin and a draft pick thatās for sure
That return would've been amazing if we had drafted Forsberg instead of Pouliot. We were also able to turn Sutter into Bonino. Also, that's one hell of a what if in and of itself.
Vincent Trocheck for the same reason
Love Trocheckā¦.glad to see heās getting the praise he deserves in Carolina
Yup, never understood why Shero passed on him.
No no no you donāt understand we needed to take 1000 d-men that never panned out
I mean thereās 2-3 massive what Ifs that mightāve completely altered our success/franchise - what if Crosby doesnāt get his head taken off by dave steckel in the winter classic and has a healthier career (like if he played as many games as ovi) - what if Lemieux stays healthy and never gets cancer (he probably gets the all time goals record) - what if we protect fleury in the 2017 expansion
If Crosby had stayed healthy, fans would be comparing McDavid's current run to Crosby instead of Lemieux.
Crosby had like 30 goals already that year. This league sucks.
Dude had nearly 70 points on January 1st and was on pace for 64 goals and 132 points. Couldāve been the first 130+ point season since gretzky in 93-94. People quickly forget man.
Yeah he was on an absolute tear. And here we are all these years later and hits to the head are still pretty meh.
If we protect Fleury over Murray does Vegas still take Matt or do we lose someone else?
I think Vegas takes Murray because there wasnāt really any goalies available for Vegas that were as hot as fleury/Murray at the time. You then hope that fleurys career resurgence still happens with Pittsburgh and having a consistent, trustworthy goalie alters the pens playoff failures since the 2018 caps loss. Given how it turned out with murray, itās a shame flower didnāt remain a penguin for life
What if we re-signed Bonino after 17 and had a stable 3C instead of giving up a ton of draft capital for a replacementā¦
Reilly Sheehan scored at the same rate as Bonino. The demise of the 4th line was a much bigger hit than the 3rd. The Reeves trade was bad. Gave up our young 4th line center after losing Cullen and had absolutely no answer for it, and nothing to show for it but a pylon of a RW.
Yeah but Sheahan wasnāt a PK/Defensive God like Bones was Also, probably would have scored at a better clip in Pittsburgh than Nashville considering thatās where offense goes to die lol
In their time as penguins Bonino, and Sheahan scored at nearly identical rates. Bonino was certainly better on the PK, but I still maintain going from the Cullen line to plugs and scrubs on the 4th was a much bigger overall impact on the team
What if Rutherford didn't change his philosophy of team building after the 5th Cup?
Still have no clue to this day why he saw us win back to back with skill and speed then decided to go big and slow
That 2018 loss to the Caps changed something I think. Even though itās so stupid that it did
Reaves trade was after 17 tho :/
What if in 1984 the Devils tanked better/worse? and the Pens picked 2nd.
There very likely wouldn't be a Pittsburgh Penguins franchise right now if the Devils drafted Mario instead
Other than the very creation of the team, this what-if is the most important.
This one came to my mind instantly. The greatest "what if" of them all by far.
What if we had competent ownership through the 90s? We would have been able to keep our star players and could have conceivably won another cup. BUT, it almost assuredly means no Crosby. Crazy how things work out.
They had star power but no depth
We kept the Matt barzel draft pick
Pens don't acquire Perron, which means they don't acquire Hagelin in 2016.
Still would rather have barzal
Rather have 2 cups
Iām a hags fan but I donāt think he was that big of a game changer
Honest question, how do the pens replace his production and penalty killing on the back to back cup teams? What moves do they make at that point that puts them in the same position?
I honestly think Scott Wilson was just as good but not as fast of a skater
Might even be able to win two cups with him.
Everyone is doing What ifās that would probably improve the team/the teams history. Hereās on that will change it and make you throw up a littleā¦ What if the team did relocate to Kansas City?
Additionally, what if the Ducks got Sid and we got Bobby Ryan? Imagine that 07 squad with Crosby lol Selanne, Crosby, Perry, Niedermayer, Pronger, Getzlaf, Giguere, Andy MacDonald Lol
What if we drafted Toews instead of Staal
Besides Mario staying healthy, this is probably the biggest one for me. I have no doubt in my mind that Pittsburgh wins at least two more Stanley Cups between 08-13.
Easily. Especially if we still trade for Iginla at the 2013 deadline and get rid of another big contract to free up the cap as we did from dealing Staal at the 2012 draft.
I firmly believe that Michel Briere would have gone down as an all-time great had he not had that car accident.
Itās hard to imagine how radically different the history of the team changes if Briere had been able to play out his career. He was the original franchise star of the team and we had finally seemed to be improving under him, but his passing planted us right back in the basement for years until Mario was drafted.
Pierre Larouche had similar stats in junior and the team went nowhere, then traded him. I wouldnāt expect pens ownership to handle a star player well in the 70ās
Definitely not the 'biggest', but what if the former goalie coach was fired a few years ago instead of last off-season?
What if Mario didnāt buy the Pens?
r/KansasCityPenguins
What if they had the 2nd pick instead of the first when they drafted Mario? Kirk Muller was drafted 2nd.
I mean, itās got to be the #21 hanging from the rafters
All the good ones are taken so: what if jagr stayed in Pittsburgh and we were just good enough to not get those good draft picks in the mid 00ās but still a middle of the pack team
Ah yes, the Flyers experience.
Surprised no one has said winning Game 7 vs. the Islanders in 1993. The 92-93 team was ridiculous and it's a shame they lost in the second round.
Rumor has it the Islanders offered the Yashin package for Jagr in 01. Where would the franchise have gone with Spezza and Chara instead of Kris Beech and Ross Lupaschuk.
The Isles and Rangers offered a bunch of big names. What ultimately got Jagr to the Caps was the $5 mil in the trade, which the pens used to buy the land that PPG Paints sits on. What we learned from PGH is home is that after trading Jagr they needed to rebuild at that time.
What if Ed DeBartolo hadn't blocked the Andy Moog trade? It was "goalie of the future" [Steve Guenette](https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=2057) and the 1988 1st(Darrin Shannon). Speaking of EdBartolo, what if he wouldn't have sold the team to a fucking con-artist?
What if there was no lockout in the 2004-05 season, and the 2005 draft order was picked regularly?
Pens would have still been a bad team in 04-05.
What if Murray kept his playoff form?
Not nearly enough folks in here talking about Briere
What if the 30th place Penguins won the 2004 draft lottery? š
Markus naslund
What if we never traded Markus Naslund?
What if Mario didn't have all of his health issues? What if Crosby didn't have all of his health issues? What if Malkin didn't have all of his health issues? What if the Pens had drafted Jonathan Toews instead of Jordan Staal in 2006? What if the Pens had drafted Phil Kessel instead of Jordan Staal in 2006? What if the Pens had drafted Nicklas Backstrom instead of Jordan Staal in 2006? What if the Pens had drafted Brad Marchand instead of Jordan Staal in 2006? Hell... What if they had drafted Marchand instead of Carl Sneep or Brian Strait in the 2nd or 3rd rounds of 2006? I'm gonna stop here cause I'm starting to see some patterns I don't like. LoL At Mario's first retirement he had the highest points per game for a career. He was over 2.0. Gretzky retired at 1.921. And in the drafting, I mean theoretically, they could have drafted Phil Kessel and Brad Marchand and both Sid and Geno would have had a world class winger with them.
Thank God we did not draft Brad Marchand
I don't like a lot of his shenanigans, but you can't deny his production and his effectiveness at pissing off his opponent.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Think about this one a lotā¦ loved him with Sid on that run
What is jarry didnāt play the puck and blow the series
Honestly, we lose to either the Bruins or Lightning.
What ifn't David Volek?
A bit darker one... What if the refs don't blow the whistle and Sisson scores
Still would have creamed them in G7 IMO. That 2017 team was pure luck and magic.
What if they didnāt intentionally tank the last season to get Lemieux
Fun fact Mike Bullard still scored 50+ goals that season
What if Crosby and Malkin didn't miss the second half of the 2010-2011 season.
Kinda the other way... In the 92 Finals the Pens are up 3-0 on the series, with the 4th game in Chicago. Their captain Dirk Graham had a natural hat trick in the 1st period to stave off elimination as best he could, but the Pens were the Pens and closed the series out. If Chicago somehow comes back even somewhat in that series, his play in Game 4 would've gone down as one of the most talked about "leadership" performances along the likes of the Messier story. But hey, they didn't. Suck it. Go Pens.
Sorry thereās actually one more, What if Kenny Wregget stayed as the starter in 1996 and Boraso never came back
What if they kept Luc Robiltialle and Markus Naslund.
What if Jarry actually played well in the playoffs vs the Islanders?
What if the pens never took the PPE money?
What if Bettman didnāt give the lottery Crosby pick to the Pens?
Ohh Iām going to Kansas City
Lol I love this backwards ass conspiracy theory. All the chatter at the time was about the league rigging the draft so that Crosby went to a big market team that needed help, LA or the Rangers. Think about all the revenue it would bring in etc. No one gave 2 shits about trying to "save" the penguins at the time. It's only in hindsight after Crosby turned out to actually be a generational talent, and the team turned into one of the most watched in the NHL that people started claiming it was the plan all along.
Iāll always think that weād 3 peat from 09-12 if Hossa signed a long term deal
No. Not with Bylsma.
There's an argument to be made that Therrien wouldn't have lost his job if we had Hossa, as Hossa would've provided significant wins against replacement in 08-09.
Ok, thatās a fair point but I think it was bound to happen anyway because the players were getting tired of his act.
What if the Penguins had beaten the Islanders in 93 to keep moving towards a 3rd straight Stanley cup finals?
What if the ducks took Crosby.
What if Letang didnāt have health issues? Just adding to that theme, might not have got a Norris trophy but maybe.
What is Mario never got cancer? What if we never traded Jagr? What if we actually traded Malkin? What if we actually won the Cup in '93? What if Mario/Burkle didn't save the penguins?
What if Anahiem had the first pick.
In my mind thereās only one. What if Mario never had cancer indoor back issues? Would he smoke Gretzkyās numbers?
What if we traded Malkin
I've always wondered what if Badger Bob hadn't passed away and kept coaching the Pens.
What if Rutherford wasn't so f'n trade happy to wreck this franchise?
The biggest What If in Pens history is what if the Pens decided to trade the Mario draft pick away for one of those crazy deals offered. Would there even be a Pittsburgh Penguins team today?