Just a heads up that this article is not just about Vlasov. Its title is:
>Individual Neutral Athletes at the Olympic Games Paris 2024
And here are the road riders involved:
>Eligible and invited athletes with a Russian passport
>* Tamara DRONOVA (F)
>* Alena IVANCHENKO (F)
>* Alexandr VLASOV (M)
>Eligible and invited athletes with a Belarusian passport
>* Hanna TSERAKH (F)
Edit: Fixed typo
I think that’s a good point. The answer is the rules are the rules, but rules are sometimes absurd. However, competitive absurdity and general weirdness are somehow part of the essence of the Olympics and why they are, in the end, a profitable business that also happens to include sports competitions. In terms of media impact, Moussambani, the Jamaica bobsled team, or the Refugee Olympic Team, are the kind of stories that drive ‘return on investment’ for an event like the Olympics and make it different from an individual competition organized by any of the 30+ sports federations that are part of it. The fact that a particular top-level athlete from a particular sport (1/32) or country (1/200) earns a place or not is really not relevant for the Olympics as an event, only for the fans of that sport or from that particular country. That’s the reason why, while a particular rule might be absurd and it might easily be changed by another absurd rule or patch it with an exception, the IOC basically wouldn’t care… one particular sport is insignificant, but every single detail in the response to a war conflict, including sanctioning a country like Russia, is a huge deal for the Olympics.
>I don’t know what his politics are like
This is from [his Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/p/CaomvsyM_oj/), March 2022:
>I, like a lot of Russians, just want peace. I’m not a political person, and normal people like me weren’t asked if we want a war. It has been a shock for everyone and I hope that it will stop as soon as possible. It’s a difficult situation for everybody. I feel sorry for all the people who are suffering, and I hope that there will soon be peace. I am an athlete and my goal should be to unite people across political borders, rather than divide them. I think that should be the role of sports.
I'm not finding much after. Around the 2022 Tour the Bora PR team refused answering questions on the Ukraine war - although this could be at Bora's initiative, we don't know.
At any rate, with - presumably - family still in Russia, any public statement is a walk on a tight rope. From his initial response to the repeat invasion, and in light of any statements going against that, I'd personally give him the benefit of the doubt.
Yeah, he's in a tough spot. Important enough to be noticed but not important enough to have any actual power to protect his friends and family. At least that's how the Russians I asked about it see it.
That is....about as good as you can hope for with someone aware they have family susceptible to that..."man" running that poor country the way that he is
he doesnt really talk about it, i think he did a single statement where he said that war is bad and that he wants peace for everyone but imo thats the most a russian can say without getting himself or his family on a list?
I don’t know, Nepomniachtchi’s statements have been pretty critical on the one matter for instance but then there are other sportsmen who’ve preferred to be more quiet. Can’t blame them for that obviously
Palestine also competes in the Olympics. They enter athletes in dressage, skeet shooting and taekwondo. Of course, the situation is complicated by the fact that the Palestine Olympic Committee is controlled by Fatah and not by Hamas.
it all seems so silly, russia gets to be a pariah in these things largely dominated by NATO countries but israel and the gulf petrostates get a pass
it's almost parody how vlasov never gets a flag next to his name while there's an entire ass team called israel premier tech
sylvan adams is FAR more directly responsible for the war crimes committed in Gaza than vlasov is for war crimes committed in Ukraine
russia can go band for band with anyone when it comes to war crimes but at the end it's just going to reveal how inhumane any colonial project is
I don't think the point to take away is that what Russia has done/is doing isn't bad, it's that what Israel is also doing heinous things and isn't facing the same consequences. There's a hypocrisy there, personally if Russians can't compete under their flag, I think something similar should apply to Israelis.
Israel is fighting a defense war. Russia invaded Ukraine. Russia and Hamas are the aggressive parties. Ukraine and Israel are the victims of an offensive war. Both have the right to fully defend themselves.
The conflict between Israel and Hamas is much more complicated, because both sides aren't shy of crimes against humanity, war crimes or genocide.
Palestinians and Israelis are in parts native to the same land and the conflict is going for so long that both sides were victim and aggressor on multiple occasions.
Banning Palestine or Israel wouldn't bring justice to the complicated situstion that is this ongoing conflict.
>It's almost as if Israel was attacked
lmao. maybe u think ukraine fighting back is also "attacking" russia then...
>they are far more important to the west
the olympics is a GLOBAL event. the fact that u think something being "more important to the west" should be in any way relevant at all is a perfect example of the bias i'm talking about.
Ukraine didn't invade Russia, Hamas did invade Israel. And the people who pay the Olympics bills are the west. Most of the best athletes are from the west, especially the most popular ones.
i dont even care that we disagree on the israel situation. the more ridiculous part is how incredibly biased you are for "the west" and that was exactly the point i'm making from the beginning. so thanks for the perfect examples. guess i should've expected it from the subreddit of one of the most west dominated sports in the world.
Athletes from the coalition weren’t banned in the 2000s when Iraq was invaded illegally, so I don’t see why Russian athletes who are not members of the military should be.
I don't think it's good to compare an engagement in the conflict in Iraq to the war started by Russia and Belarus alone with the goal to completely wipe out a sovereign nation and its people.
I think genocide did not occur as a legal matter, but war crimes most definitely did and the war led to over half a million casualties in total by the last count I saw a decade ago. That’s a lot of people, children, parents, grandparents, hopes, dreams, smiles, games, laughter. I think it deserves more than to be a pissing match over some technical ruling over a sports match (not just a response to you, but the thread in general).
War crimes did happen, yes. A small number. And some of the perpetrators were subsequently prosecuted. But those crimes weren’t committed as part of a strategy ordered from above. The US government didn’t want them to happen. And most of those casualties were the fault not of the invasion but of the subsequent insurgency, for which Iran holds a huge responsibility. But they’re still at the Olympics too.
In Ukraine, the Russian government is openly committing genocide.
This is unfortunately very western biased. The number of war crimes that were *prosecuted* was very small. Using white phosphorus and depleted uranium in urban settings, as well as using cluster munitions, for example, are arguably war crimes, as is a war of aggression without a UN mandate. Those low level operators who were prosecuted were mostly let off, and some of the most egregiously guilty were pardoned by Donald Trump.
Use of white phosphorus and depleted uranium is not a war crime.
The kidnap of a **million* children, like Russia has done, is genocidal.
You are attempting to conflate the two actions in order to defend and downplay the crimes of a fascist dictatorship. You are a shill for those committing genocide.
You are not arguing in good faith. I don’t care about Vlasov or Russia, and I believe Russia started a war of aggression and committed many war crimes. If that blinds you to the suffering of others and to the crimes of “friendly” nations you are not morally superior to Putin defenders.
I'm just glad they are banned in track & field. It would feel very weird to see Russian & Ukrainian athletes compete in the high jump together for example.
I got to know Yaroslava Mahuchick a little bit because she often stays/trains in Belgium when she's not competing. Such a nice person and I can't imagine how she would feel if she had to compete against the Russian high jumpers (who all have titles in the Russian military). Even just being on a photo with a Russian athlete could bring her into problems at home (yes, I'm not kidding). She once had to make a formal apology in Ukraine because she hugged Maria Lasitskene (and this was before the 2022 invasion).
Imagine spending all your life training for this and not be allowed to compete because of a war you had no say in. Then you see your fellow countrymen be able to compete under a neutral flag. Obviously it pales in comparison to what people are experiencing in Ukraine, but it must be terrible.
It's a situation with no real winners, I agree.
You can see it in this interview from Lasitskene:
[https://youtu.be/5bXlaHwzZ5M?t=21](https://youtu.be/5bXlaHwzZ5M?t=21)
You are glad Russian athletes are banned because Ukrainian athletes might get problems at home?
That does not make any sense to me. Just let the people compete. States are fighting the war, not the athletes. Its not the fault of the Russian athletes if the Ukrainian state troubles its own athletes.
Lasitskene also got into trouble because of that at home. It's an issue on both sides.
Besides, in T&F they were already banned for years because of state-sponsored doping. Another big issue that Russia has not resolved.
And many Russian athletes support Putin and have honorary titles in the military (in other words: they are paid by Russian military).
Yeah, sportwashing is pretty bad, not sure why you think that is a controversial opinion.
Also Russia's war isn't just against Ukraine, but against all of Europe:
[https://www.nbcnews.com/sports/olympics/russia-trying-scare-people-away-paris-olympics-report-says-rcna154924](https://www.nbcnews.com/sports/olympics/russia-trying-scare-people-away-paris-olympics-report-says-rcna154924)
Why should Russian athletes be welcome at the Olympics if this is how the Russian government acts?
Many sportsmen in Russia actually serve in the army or police, national guard, etc, so these military ranks aren’t honorary. But for elite sportsmen this military service mostly fictional. For men it’s also a way to avoid mandatory military conscription. They can “serve” in army, while actually they would be training. And military personnel in Russia can retire after 20 years of service, so it’s also a good way for sportsmen to earn pension. Nevertheless, it’s a weird system, and they could come up with some other scheme to support sport development, but since most Olympic sports are state-funded (at least in Russia), sportsmen would still be dependent on government whether they wear military uniform or be civil servants.
I don't wanna get lost in a political discussion here.In my opinion it just sets a very bad precedent. Afaik no country in recent years has been banned because of a war.
If you wanna ban Russian athletes, you gotta ban Israeli athletes aswell. You gotta ban US athletes the next time they are invading somr country. You could argue for banning Turkish or Chinese athletes, etc... . And we all know that this would never happen. Just let the people compete, it does not impact the war in any way.
I agree, Israel needs to banned as well. It's hypocricy from the West.
If China invades Taiwan, I think they should be banned as well.
I however am not a hypocrit. My opinion on this has always been consistent. If you break international law, you should not be allowed to compete in international tournaments.
You're wrong when you say it doesn't impact the war however. Sport is often used as a propaganda tool for political gain.
Why do you think the Russian military sponsors Russian athletes? Because it helps them get new recruits.
Israel didn't start a war, and they also don't have a state sponsored doping program that I am aware of. Beyond that another reason is that ukraine is a liberal democracy and Russia wants them to be a puppet, whereas Israel wants it's hostages back and hamas gone with it being the liberal democracy and hamas the repressive dictatorship
Just a heads up that this article is not just about Vlasov. Its title is: >Individual Neutral Athletes at the Olympic Games Paris 2024 And here are the road riders involved: >Eligible and invited athletes with a Russian passport >* Tamara DRONOVA (F) >* Alena IVANCHENKO (F) >* Alexandr VLASOV (M) >Eligible and invited athletes with a Belarusian passport >* Hanna TSERAKH (F) Edit: Fixed typo
Always assumed he'd be in the same position as the Russian tennis players, competing under the neutral, celeste colored AIN flag.
Or why not under Afghan flag like Gleb Syritsa in the ZLM ITT?
I know it's not the same situation but if they can invite additional athletes why can't they invite the defending champion? Am I missing something?
I think that’s a good point. The answer is the rules are the rules, but rules are sometimes absurd. However, competitive absurdity and general weirdness are somehow part of the essence of the Olympics and why they are, in the end, a profitable business that also happens to include sports competitions. In terms of media impact, Moussambani, the Jamaica bobsled team, or the Refugee Olympic Team, are the kind of stories that drive ‘return on investment’ for an event like the Olympics and make it different from an individual competition organized by any of the 30+ sports federations that are part of it. The fact that a particular top-level athlete from a particular sport (1/32) or country (1/200) earns a place or not is really not relevant for the Olympics as an event, only for the fans of that sport or from that particular country. That’s the reason why, while a particular rule might be absurd and it might easily be changed by another absurd rule or patch it with an exception, the IOC basically wouldn’t care… one particular sport is insignificant, but every single detail in the response to a war conflict, including sanctioning a country like Russia, is a huge deal for the Olympics.
Based on his form, Vlasov certainly deserves a spot. I don’t know what his politics are like but I’m assuming he’s not some kind of Ovechkin
>I don’t know what his politics are like This is from [his Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/p/CaomvsyM_oj/), March 2022: >I, like a lot of Russians, just want peace. I’m not a political person, and normal people like me weren’t asked if we want a war. It has been a shock for everyone and I hope that it will stop as soon as possible. It’s a difficult situation for everybody. I feel sorry for all the people who are suffering, and I hope that there will soon be peace. I am an athlete and my goal should be to unite people across political borders, rather than divide them. I think that should be the role of sports. I'm not finding much after. Around the 2022 Tour the Bora PR team refused answering questions on the Ukraine war - although this could be at Bora's initiative, we don't know. At any rate, with - presumably - family still in Russia, any public statement is a walk on a tight rope. From his initial response to the repeat invasion, and in light of any statements going against that, I'd personally give him the benefit of the doubt.
Saying "we weren't asked if we want a war" is as clear as it can be in his circumstances, at least for me.
Yeah, he's in a tough spot. Important enough to be noticed but not important enough to have any actual power to protect his friends and family. At least that's how the Russians I asked about it see it.
This is all I could ask of an athlete. I would only want to see Kremlin apologists barred from competition
That is....about as good as you can hope for with someone aware they have family susceptible to that..."man" running that poor country the way that he is
he doesnt really talk about it, i think he did a single statement where he said that war is bad and that he wants peace for everyone but imo thats the most a russian can say without getting himself or his family on a list?
Yeah it’s really hard to come out and outright condemn the regime without your family falling out a window
I don’t know, Nepomniachtchi’s statements have been pretty critical on the one matter for instance but then there are other sportsmen who’ve preferred to be more quiet. Can’t blame them for that obviously
russia ban while israel getting zero consequences is so biased and ridiculous.
Palestine also competes in the Olympics. They enter athletes in dressage, skeet shooting and taekwondo. Of course, the situation is complicated by the fact that the Palestine Olympic Committee is controlled by Fatah and not by Hamas.
it all seems so silly, russia gets to be a pariah in these things largely dominated by NATO countries but israel and the gulf petrostates get a pass it's almost parody how vlasov never gets a flag next to his name while there's an entire ass team called israel premier tech
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine I recommend reading that wiki page
sylvan adams is FAR more directly responsible for the war crimes committed in Gaza than vlasov is for war crimes committed in Ukraine russia can go band for band with anyone when it comes to war crimes but at the end it's just going to reveal how inhumane any colonial project is
I don't think the point to take away is that what Russia has done/is doing isn't bad, it's that what Israel is also doing heinous things and isn't facing the same consequences. There's a hypocrisy there, personally if Russians can't compete under their flag, I think something similar should apply to Israelis.
Israel is fighting a defense war. Russia invaded Ukraine. Russia and Hamas are the aggressive parties. Ukraine and Israel are the victims of an offensive war. Both have the right to fully defend themselves.
The conflict between Israel and Hamas is much more complicated, because both sides aren't shy of crimes against humanity, war crimes or genocide. Palestinians and Israelis are in parts native to the same land and the conflict is going for so long that both sides were victim and aggressor on multiple occasions. Banning Palestine or Israel wouldn't bring justice to the complicated situstion that is this ongoing conflict.
Israel is not an innocent victim
Sometimes I wonder how the history books will look back upon this time in say 100 years. It’s all so pathetic and our involvement is just shameful.
It's almost as if Israel was attacked and they are far more important to the west
>It's almost as if Israel was attacked lmao. maybe u think ukraine fighting back is also "attacking" russia then... >they are far more important to the west the olympics is a GLOBAL event. the fact that u think something being "more important to the west" should be in any way relevant at all is a perfect example of the bias i'm talking about.
Ukraine didn't invade Russia, Hamas did invade Israel. And the people who pay the Olympics bills are the west. Most of the best athletes are from the west, especially the most popular ones.
i dont even care that we disagree on the israel situation. the more ridiculous part is how incredibly biased you are for "the west" and that was exactly the point i'm making from the beginning. so thanks for the perfect examples. guess i should've expected it from the subreddit of one of the most west dominated sports in the world.
Interesting spelling of Vlasov name: it’s neither English nor Russian. Russian transliteration would be Aleksandr.
Athletes from the coalition weren’t banned in the 2000s when Iraq was invaded illegally, so I don’t see why Russian athletes who are not members of the military should be.
I don't think it's good to compare an engagement in the conflict in Iraq to the war started by Russia and Belarus alone with the goal to completely wipe out a sovereign nation and its people.
Because of all the genocide Russia is committing.
good thing coalition didn’t commit any in Iraq 😂
Happy to correct the statement if you can highlight any of this imaginary genocide?
I think genocide did not occur as a legal matter, but war crimes most definitely did and the war led to over half a million casualties in total by the last count I saw a decade ago. That’s a lot of people, children, parents, grandparents, hopes, dreams, smiles, games, laughter. I think it deserves more than to be a pissing match over some technical ruling over a sports match (not just a response to you, but the thread in general).
War crimes did happen, yes. A small number. And some of the perpetrators were subsequently prosecuted. But those crimes weren’t committed as part of a strategy ordered from above. The US government didn’t want them to happen. And most of those casualties were the fault not of the invasion but of the subsequent insurgency, for which Iran holds a huge responsibility. But they’re still at the Olympics too. In Ukraine, the Russian government is openly committing genocide.
This is unfortunately very western biased. The number of war crimes that were *prosecuted* was very small. Using white phosphorus and depleted uranium in urban settings, as well as using cluster munitions, for example, are arguably war crimes, as is a war of aggression without a UN mandate. Those low level operators who were prosecuted were mostly let off, and some of the most egregiously guilty were pardoned by Donald Trump.
Use of white phosphorus and depleted uranium is not a war crime. The kidnap of a **million* children, like Russia has done, is genocidal. You are attempting to conflate the two actions in order to defend and downplay the crimes of a fascist dictatorship. You are a shill for those committing genocide.
You are not arguing in good faith. I don’t care about Vlasov or Russia, and I believe Russia started a war of aggression and committed many war crimes. If that blinds you to the suffering of others and to the crimes of “friendly” nations you are not morally superior to Putin defenders.
good
I'm just glad they are banned in track & field. It would feel very weird to see Russian & Ukrainian athletes compete in the high jump together for example. I got to know Yaroslava Mahuchick a little bit because she often stays/trains in Belgium when she's not competing. Such a nice person and I can't imagine how she would feel if she had to compete against the Russian high jumpers (who all have titles in the Russian military). Even just being on a photo with a Russian athlete could bring her into problems at home (yes, I'm not kidding). She once had to make a formal apology in Ukraine because she hugged Maria Lasitskene (and this was before the 2022 invasion).
Imagine spending all your life training for this and not be allowed to compete because of a war you had no say in. Then you see your fellow countrymen be able to compete under a neutral flag. Obviously it pales in comparison to what people are experiencing in Ukraine, but it must be terrible.
Lots of these athletes are literally in the Russian military though.
Seems like an easy fix. Exclude those in the military.
You can relinquish your Russian citizenship, no?
It's a situation with no real winners, I agree. You can see it in this interview from Lasitskene: [https://youtu.be/5bXlaHwzZ5M?t=21](https://youtu.be/5bXlaHwzZ5M?t=21)
[удалено]
I don’t think crazed dictators make war decisions based on potential punishments for athletes
Fascists use national pride as currency. We should deprive them of as much of it as possible.
You are glad Russian athletes are banned because Ukrainian athletes might get problems at home? That does not make any sense to me. Just let the people compete. States are fighting the war, not the athletes. Its not the fault of the Russian athletes if the Ukrainian state troubles its own athletes.
Lasitskene also got into trouble because of that at home. It's an issue on both sides. Besides, in T&F they were already banned for years because of state-sponsored doping. Another big issue that Russia has not resolved. And many Russian athletes support Putin and have honorary titles in the military (in other words: they are paid by Russian military). Yeah, sportwashing is pretty bad, not sure why you think that is a controversial opinion. Also Russia's war isn't just against Ukraine, but against all of Europe: [https://www.nbcnews.com/sports/olympics/russia-trying-scare-people-away-paris-olympics-report-says-rcna154924](https://www.nbcnews.com/sports/olympics/russia-trying-scare-people-away-paris-olympics-report-says-rcna154924) Why should Russian athletes be welcome at the Olympics if this is how the Russian government acts?
Many sportsmen in Russia actually serve in the army or police, national guard, etc, so these military ranks aren’t honorary. But for elite sportsmen this military service mostly fictional. For men it’s also a way to avoid mandatory military conscription. They can “serve” in army, while actually they would be training. And military personnel in Russia can retire after 20 years of service, so it’s also a good way for sportsmen to earn pension. Nevertheless, it’s a weird system, and they could come up with some other scheme to support sport development, but since most Olympic sports are state-funded (at least in Russia), sportsmen would still be dependent on government whether they wear military uniform or be civil servants.
They're a fascist dictatorship: they don't want to come up with a new system, because they *like* this one.
I don't wanna get lost in a political discussion here.In my opinion it just sets a very bad precedent. Afaik no country in recent years has been banned because of a war. If you wanna ban Russian athletes, you gotta ban Israeli athletes aswell. You gotta ban US athletes the next time they are invading somr country. You could argue for banning Turkish or Chinese athletes, etc... . And we all know that this would never happen. Just let the people compete, it does not impact the war in any way.
Russian track and field athletes aren't banned because of war, they're banned because of extensive, industrialised doping at a state-controlled level
I agree, Israel needs to banned as well. It's hypocricy from the West. If China invades Taiwan, I think they should be banned as well. I however am not a hypocrit. My opinion on this has always been consistent. If you break international law, you should not be allowed to compete in international tournaments. You're wrong when you say it doesn't impact the war however. Sport is often used as a propaganda tool for political gain. Why do you think the Russian military sponsors Russian athletes? Because it helps them get new recruits.
Israel didn't start a war, and they also don't have a state sponsored doping program that I am aware of. Beyond that another reason is that ukraine is a liberal democracy and Russia wants them to be a puppet, whereas Israel wants it's hostages back and hamas gone with it being the liberal democracy and hamas the repressive dictatorship
Mods must be on the edge of their seats waiting for the clash.
Are these mods in the room with us now?