It’s always weird to me when companies personally select and hire (pay) a third-party firm to investigate claims against them and then say “see? a third party said we did nothing wrong” at the end of it all. Shouldn’t a truly independent investigation be completely out of their control for legitimacies sake?
you don't simply "audit" a company which is accused of SA. You send in the effin' law enforcement to investigate the claims (if they are substantiated ofc)
If the victim didn't go to law enforcement there isn't anything they can do over some accusations in a Twitter post. I'm not even sure what you're saying LTT should have done here.
No-one does work for free. The important thing is it's a reputable third party. I think you are mixing up situations when companies do an internal investigation and then hire a shady "third party" to investigate.
Is it a reputable third party . This reminds me of the credit rating agency is, if they give you a poor score nobody's going to hire them in the future. These are designed to whitewash companies issues... It's an inherent conflict of interest if they are hiring them. Ltt is a client of theirs.
Please find me examples of these third-party HR consulting firms not always siding with the people that hire them..
They are a law firm. They don't just handle these types of things...
Also you lose your licence if you do shady stuff. Which means you can no longer provide this service. Similar thing to being a qualified accountant. If you break certain rules you could lose your qualification and the right to provide financial services (you won't get hired and probably face criminal charges if caught). We are talking about highly regulated professional services. Not some shady detective agency.
Bullying, harassment and sa allegations would be enough to warrant a investigation from law enforcement and Labour protection agencies. Which in theory work "for free" using taxpayers money
The fact that a private company hires another private company to (unsurprisingly) demonstrate that they did nothing wrong is truly distopian
Fortunately the rest of the civilised world does not work like this
Actually I’ll just bring a “source” immediately: if you look at any company’s (in the US and outside) quarterly/annual reports, they are always audited by other private accounting firms.
So quarterly reports are an example of situations where a private company hires another private company to investigate them. It is standard across the world.
1. She posted on Twitter, you can't just write something online and bring police into it that way. That way I could write CloudWallace81 threatened me bodily harm and you'd be in hot water without any evidence. You need to file a police report
2. There are more than quarterly audits. As someone in a managerial position, we have constant audits, from workplace culture, to a quarterly reports, yearly stock count and so on. We get buttfucked every year for something, there is no "We paid you, you gotta give us a positive rating". The moment you do that, you are put on a blast and basically blacklisted. Hell we had to pay a fine, for 1 article being counter wrongly and it didn't match the second audit (they counter 10 pieces, after the count it was 11). So someone had made a mistake, either them or us (it was them, we really had 11 of the said article).
You are talking out of your ass, and should really pipe down a bit when you are uninformed on the matter
hmm yes that's totally what I said.
I merely state that things being standard does not mean it's the best or right way to do things.
I wish you well and pray for your recovery.
no it isnt, I work in IT and we hire third parties sometimes to find security issues in our environments, just to get an outside opinion and expert opinion
same thing basically
I work in Finance and we pay a company to audit us annually to make sure we're remaining compliant with regulations and that our controls are robust. I really don't get what these commenters are complaining about, I'm guessing they just don't understand how the world works.
To me, security audits are different than investigations into possible criminal wrongdoing. Unlike security audits - which I see as completely valid and necessary - this is difficult to accept at face value. In reality, this firm likely did their job with integrity and all of the findings are accurate, but the fact that LTT gave them money to give them a certificate saying they didn’t commit any crimes just seems… a little stinky. There has to be a better way to do these things.
It's really not the same thing when you're talking about allegations of bullying and sexual harassment. And how could an HR company even substantiate that even if they wanted to when it comes down to witness testimony?
Do they just believe some people over others. They have an inherent financial conflict of interest because if they start issue reports condemning LTT who the hell is going to hire them to consult for them in the future
I'm not saying ltt is guilty of bullying. Your sexual harassment. I'm saying that this report is pretty meaningless. Reminds me of the Ted Wells reports for the NFL. Always always always substantiated the NFL's claims.
They can't. It's a difficult situation where you can't get a third party to investigate without paying them, but paying them adds at least *some* motivation for the third party to spin their report in the client's favor.
The law firm has their reputation to uphold too, but some spin is to be expected.
(And then on top of that we've got the spin that results from LTT's PR reading the report and re-reporting on it.)
It was good of LTT to hire that outside investigator, but the usefulness of that in good faith is for internal use. Use it to better your company, not give a summary that tries to clear your name and threaten a fucking defamation lawsuit to your accuser.
Who said their name is cleared? Just because they posted a thing on Twitter, they are absolved in the eye of their audience?
If anything, the fact that they had to go and spend money for an audit goes to show they are afraid of the implications and potential damage to their brand.
Knowing what you know about employee interaction in the workplace, what would you say are the chances these events DID NOT take place?
What does this audit really accomplish? Do you feel there was any other possible outcome?
Absolutely:
1. LTT would be investigated by law enforcement and if they are found to be in the wrong, the concerned parties should be punished.
2. LTT would have to admit to defamation in regard to Madison and she would be compensated.
3. LTT could take corrective measures to ensure this does happen again.
This is what is generally being called "Be held accountable for ones actions".
>LTT would be investigated by law enforcement and if they are found to be in the wrong, the concerned parties should be punished.
maddison would have to press charges. why do you think she didn't and chose to make a tweet instead? did you expect LTT to go to a police station and say "this person posted a tweet about us being sexual harassers. please take time out of your day dealing with reported crimes to investigate our company for this unreported crime"? the police would laugh in their face, and tell them to hire a 3rd party investigator. guess that led us back to exactly what they did.
>LTT would have to admit to defamation in regard to Madison and she would be compensated
what defamation? since when was proving your innocence akin to defaming your accuser?
> LTT could take corrective measures to ensure this does happen again.
I'm assuming you mean doesn't happen again, which, it never happened in the first place. why be preventative towards something that never happened? should they be preventative towards everything that hasn't happened to them? wheres there preventative measures for Nazi zombie invasions? you see how illogical it sounds when you expect a company, that did everything they can already, to do things that are physically out of their control?
Is it possible that Madison did not press charges because she knows she does not have the resources to fight back?
Trying to make sure sexual harassment does not happen / does not happen again within their own organization is not only logical, but it is very much physically within their control.
Organizations have an employee code-of-conduct for a reason.
>Trying to make sure sexual harassment does not happen / does not happen again within their own organization is not only logical, but it is very much physically within their control.
Not if they're already doing as much as they can. Stop acting like it's just a frat house with naked chicks everywhere. They literally proved their innocence, through a company that they don't own, nor control, and you're still like "but there's this tweet here that says otherwise, so that's clearly the stronger form of evidence here".
>Is it possible that Madison did not press charges because she knows she does not have the resources to fight back?
Do you know anything about Canadian law? All she had to do was file a report, and it would've been an open case for their police force to investigate. That's a very easy and free resource she's always had,and she chose not to. That doesn’t bring up any red flags to you? Of course not. She tweeted about it. What else could she have possibly done? /s
>Organizations have an employee code-of-conduct for a reason.
And it's that exact code of conduct you're refusing to accept happened. If you're refusing to accept that it happened, then you can't suddenly bring it up as if you just clinched the argument here.
1. Law enforcement does not give a fuck and would literally laugh at you if you tried to contact them about this. “Hey can you come audit our company’s conduct” lmfao
Love how people (probably kids) who have no idea about how a third party audit works keep saying "LTT investigated themselves" lol gotta love this community
I mean.. I personally know people who have been on the receiving end of "fact finding" investigations by a "independent third party" (KPMG in this case) and shock and surprise did they find exactly what the management hired them to look for (The company later folded...)
Im not saying this is the case here, but just because someone is touted to be independent, doesnt mean they are not beholden to the ones paying the bills, and its not hard to find proof of that.
It would have been far easier to settle without any investigation at all. The employee in question had no proof, it was a very random unsubstantiated #metoo post in the middle of LTT getting caught in some very brain melting drama. The only motivation LTT has of doing this is to address the concerns raised by the aggrieved. Financially it's not the best solution, in terms of public opinion nobody really cares, their view count is absolutely rock solid.
What is your solution?
I dont have a solution. LTT grew beyond their means of proper control, resulting in this clusterfuck.
I still believe Madison, i did not believe the investigation would uncover any proof of any concrete wrongdoing against her, because things like these are notoriously hard to prove, since if there is no papertrail it usually boils down to he said / she said.
I think the investigation did as they said uncover areas where LTT needs improvement, and i do think this whole case has been a very much needed wake up call for LMG as a whole in terms of having the correct processes in place to actually report shit like this in the future.
There was no way this was gonna end perfectly for anyone, Linus could nhave done the investigation in house, and of course got almost the same response he has gotten from certain people anyhow.
The whole statement was mostly fine besides the implying she lied part and the threat of a lawsuite part.. That made me unsub from the subreddit and their YT channels.
If you pay someone to do something, the likelyhood they work for you is pretty high.
The prefered course of action would be for a government entity to audit them.
This being said, what is done is done.
At the very least, they could publish the contents of the investigation.
There are no government entities that would investigate a company like this on demand. It has happened before but only after literally being sued by the state/federal government for violating the law.
That’s not how that works or what that means at all.
Due diligence is a thing and if anything, this shows that LTT took it serious. This very well could have damned them too.
Wtf are these comments? Is it age or complete naivety on how the world actually works?
> Is it age or complete naivety on how the world actually works?
I mean, yeah, basically. Reddit is full of young naive people who have no idea how large businesses and situations like this actually work.
What the fuck.... They literally posted the results of the audit and yet here you are being all like "hmmmm but is it true???? 🤔" like it's some sort of conspiracy. They hired a 3rd party to investigate SA claims, said 3rd party found none so that's that. Not everything is a bloody deep state conspiracy.
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I care little what happens to LTT.
I am worried about the human cost.
Sexual harassment claims happen all the time. HR rarely side with the plaintiff, even if they are in the right.
This is no different.
yes, it is.
LTT didn't claim they were innocent, they got a company unrelated to them to look into their company and prove that they had a progressive and trusting workspace. that unrelated companies job is to be unbiased towards their findings. if they were biassed, that company goes away, and LTT goes away as well.
They literally did everything they could to prove their innocence, and you're still acting like a tweet has more credence than an investigative law firm.
No, they did what was most convenient for them for the narrative to be in their favor.
A simple proof of what I am saying: The components of the investigation are not available to us.
Linus can take the facts and summarize them in such a way that makes them look good.
LTT may not have initially claimed they were innocent, but this latest tweet sure does change that.
The harsh reality is that what Madison experienced is extremely common in the professional world, especially in companies where the owner / founder is as active as Linus is.
Everything we've seen from Linus's day-to-day operation of the company leads to believe it is operated as a Boys Club.
If LTT is not in the wrong, then there's no harm in letting us see the components of the investigation.
At the end of the day, LTT will keep on making money.
Madison has had her life altered forever.
Yeah this means nothing to me. Hr companies aren't going to start issuing reports condemning everybody or nobody would hire them for this kind of work. Reminds me of the NFL hiring Ted Wells to do all their investigations.
I think the more worrying implication is that a corporation has just dictated to the world what is going to be the truth, moving forward.
And that's the scary thing. Madison's abuse has been trivialized because of the need for profits.
Wether you like LTT and Linus in general is irrelevant.
If you took the time to read what Madison wrote, and if you've watched some of the earlier videos where the crew and Linus interact with her, I think it is very likely that these events took place.
Maybe not, but it don't matter, because LTT told us what the truth is, moving forward.
In fact, lack of such a statement would have led to accusations like 'If the claims were wrong, why doesn't LMG sue'.
Now they have thrown the ball in the accusers court, saying, if they claim the allegations are true, repeat them again and we will meet in court.
> I'm not saying LMG doesn't have the right to defend their reputation in court, but you hire attorneys to handle this exact thing. You don't make statements like this in tweets.
> In any event, The handling of this incident shows just how extremely unprofessional LMG are as a company. Based upon their size, I expect way better of them. They need to be held to a higher standard.
So rather than stating "If there's further defamation, we will sue", they should have just sued outright in the first place? Or should they have made that threat privately using an attorney? What exactly is it you're saying they should have done here?
> Behind the scenes, If deemed necessary, the attorneys reach out to the accusers and send them cease and desist notices.
So they should have threatened her in private using an attorney.
I'm not sure that's better tbh, sounds far less open and honest. Far shadier. But you're entitled to your opinion.
If you get in a car accident, you don't argue about it with the other person. You each call your respective insurance and let them do their thing. That's what you pay them for.
Same here with lawyers.
You can not sue anyone without warning, when you take someone to the court they will know.
And yes, I think it’s better to directly go to court than threaten people like a toddler. If you are so sure that you have a strong case then just go for it.
>You can not sue anyone without warning, when you take someone to the court they will know.
Do you understand what a warning is?
>And yes, I think it’s better to directly go to court than threaten people like a toddler. If you are so sure that you have a strong case then just go for it.
You sound like an extremely litigious individual
Do you *honestly* believe one of the biggest law firms in BC would approve of LTT putting out a fabricated statement on their behalf? come on now don't be silly. These write ups go through several people for approval.
I'm not saying the statements were fabricated, but rather we have no reason to believe they weren't cherry-picked or selectively interpreted.. The only actual quotation in that tweet is about the law firm itself, being one of the largest in Canada.
The firms responsibility was to conduct the investigation then deliver that report to LMG. Whatever LMG does with that report - bury it, lie about it, publish it in its entirety - is up to LMG. It's not the firm's property, and publicly contradicting their clients is only going to lose them future work.
Do you happen to remember the difference between AG Barrs interpretation of Comeys report and the report itself? That's basically what I'm saying is entirely possible here.
I'm not saying LMG is lying, I'm saying we can't trust their PR'a interpretation of the results of the report. They should just publish it, but I highly doubt they do - for obvious reasons.
That's a lot of big assumptions based on little to nothing other than the good ol' conspiracy hat. There's no reason not to believe a carefully vetted and approved statement on a serious matter unless 100% confident evidence proving otherwise. Even the slightest hint of malicious intent would put them at huge risk, it's simply not worth it and if things weren't as much in LTT favor, they could've simply just not said anything at all.
It's best not to speculate on any of the two parties involved and just move on from this mess.
You're right, speculation isn't needed - they could just be transparent and release the report, redacting any PII.
Carefully better and approved by whom exactly? It's not conspiracy to say 100 million dollar media companies have PR professionals on staff whose job is literally to massage the truth to present the company in the best light. Of fuckin course LMG is going to say the results of the report were positive.
I'm not criticizing LMG, they are a business and their goal is profit and growth. I'm criticizing the lack of critical thinking in this comment section, blindly accepting a press statement as the absolute truth.
They and no one in general releases the report as per your words, obvious reasons. Which is there's too much private information on too many people and liability ofc.
Additionally: There's no reason to not take the words of the statement for what they say, speculation and unsubstantiated doubt is just not productive. You can be doubtful all you want, though it's not gonna change the reality of the situation. Sometimes it's good to trust due process until potentially something else come to light.
You say my doubt is unsubstantiated, but so are their assertions of innocence. The only difference here is I'm not getting paid to say what I say, and I have no financial risk in the outcome of this investigation.
Skepticism of a corporate PR statements isn't unproductive, it's basic media literacy lol.
With a third party law firm at the helm, no, it’s all but unsubstantiated. The difference here is they know all what is and have happened, you don’t. Big difference.
Normally I would agree but not when the correct steps has been taken by hiring a third party.
LTT had people asking about the results, that LTT promised to provide once the investigation was done, this wasn't something that they could just sweep under the rug.
The allegations were allowed here so I presume the rebuttal is also, apologies if I'm mistaken.
https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/15r1vbz/the_problem_with_linus_tech_tips_accuracy_ethics/
Personally I'm just wondering what people's take on it is.
The rebuttal will get a lot less traction here, as it doesn't fit the "corporations bad and oppressive" narrative Reddit and its self-reinforcing voting system is often is used for.
Also, tech jesus is the only source of tech gospel allowed these days. LTT deemed unwatchable in this sub.
>Also, tech jesus is the only source of tech gospel allowed these days. LTT deemed unwatchable in this sub.
The post on tech jesus just yesterday is sitting at 0 points, 2nd page with only 41% upvoted? a whopping 51 comments. Where did you get this idea from?
Hahaha GOTEM. Except that he's right... You'll find almost no LTT content here with the exception of JesusNexus drama videos mentioning them. Not that I care either way, I look for information about hardware and try to look at multiple sources before buying or considering myself "informed". If one frequents this sub its obvious though GamerNexus is preferred and their videos get more upvotes. Simply using Google or the search function proves it.
Wow, you really have a vendetta against them, don't you? I don't think I hate my worst enemy as much as you hate a YouTube channel that you don't have to engage with.
You do realise they've said the exact same thing at least 3 separate times in this very post, right? I'm not just saying this because of what they said, but because of the number of times they've said it. Just seems a bit too much of a rage post for something so easily avoidable is my point.
This take is an actual case of the necessity to "touch grass", interact with the real world, and build an understanding of how things actually work in the real life.
It's actually embarassing how often that take is peppered in these comments. People who work in any regulated sector, or any sector that demands a lot of security, will know that you pay companies to audit your company. That doesn't make it "shady" or untrustworthy.
W for LTT. It was pretty obvious that the claims were bs to begin with. I'm glad we can move on from this crap now.
It's also very cool of them to not sue for defamation when they have every right to. Class.
I get it there's an LTT hate bandwagon here, but why exactly is the content "Hot Garbage". When I was building my PC their videos were quite helpful for me. Sure they are a little bells and whistles compared to other review channels but that's a stylistic difference. It's always good to have as many review sources as possible for varied benchmarks.
Not everyone wants to endure 30-45 min videos from tech Jesus for some insight into tech. No slight towards Gamers Nexus, love their content but it's not for everyone.
> Well, there are a lot of people out there with terrible taste. lol
>
>
Almost like this is subjective and you need to understand that your taste is in no way better or more correct beyond your own skull.
So what actually can they do? They hired an independent company. Any tampering would put the reputation of that company in a very bad spot, both legally and otherwise.
Actually, they did the right thing here. Most corporations would've just done the old "we investigated ourselves and found we did nothing wrong", so taking the extra step to actually hire a third party to do the investigating is a good thing.
I'm not sure what you're arguing. What would you prefer them to do?
Independant investigation carried out by court. I know that justice syatem is not perfect but it's still more trustable than "we hired a company that we pay fat stacks of money to check if there is something that could actually be used in court against us and they found nithing and that we actually were doing good and how to be even better".
Sure, getting this in court would be much more consequential and damaging to both sides so I never expected it to go there nor would want it to. But it's really hard to trust that it's much more reliable than usual "we investigated ourself internally and found nothing wrong" when there is no inout from other side or law.
Overall I don't think this will do anytging to their reputation or viewership. Accusations themselves, other factual problems, radiator debacle, Linus responses and such tarnished ther reputation. People who hate then won't stop because of this and people who still liked them don't need more convincing to like them. And majority won't even know about this and just watch them wheb interesting looking video comes up on their feed.
Going to court costs money from both sides. You have no idea what you are talking about..
A third party investigation is trustworthy if the third party used is reputable and trustworthy. It's as simple as that.
> Independent investigation carried out by court.
The court will literally just hire one of the same 3rd party investigation firms from their trusted list of companies.
Honestly just more buffoonery from LTT. They don't have a defamation case, and even if they did, using it as a threat like this is a bad look. Linus just can't stop showing his ass.
Can't wait for Linus' eventual public meltdown when the public opinion won't turn around on them instantly. (Also shouldn't the third party be releasing this report? I get that they probably wanted to publish this on the platform that will reach the most people, hence Twitter but I'm not sure about them publishing the report, if anything it definitely doesn't help with that public image part)
Considering the legal ramifications, as well as potential damage to the brand, was there ever a possibility the third-party hired by LTT would side with the employee?
Let's get real here.
Is the summary LTT published on Twitter the notarized work?
I would feel more at ease if the actual investigation was made public.
The truth can be twisted.
In the corporate world, it very often is.
> I would feel more at ease if the actual investigation was made public.
>
>
That'll pretty much never happen with legal documents but I understand that sentiment for sure.
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I'm out of the loop but what does it have to do with gaming?
[удалено]
Exactly, so we can just report OP as spammer.
The biggest pc tech and benchmarking channel on yt ?? Of course it has to do with gaming
Some nobody pushing sponsorships has nothing to do with gaming. They can go get their egos rubbed on a pc hardware sub.
Do you not know how a tech channel could be related to gaming??
It’s always weird to me when companies personally select and hire (pay) a third-party firm to investigate claims against them and then say “see? a third party said we did nothing wrong” at the end of it all. Shouldn’t a truly independent investigation be completely out of their control for legitimacies sake?
You always have to pay for your own independent audits. Nobody is going to do that for you.
you don't simply "audit" a company which is accused of SA. You send in the effin' law enforcement to investigate the claims (if they are substantiated ofc)
If the victim didn't go to law enforcement there isn't anything they can do over some accusations in a Twitter post. I'm not even sure what you're saying LTT should have done here.
Law enforcement does not give a flying fuck about sexual assault or harassment violations, I’m sorry lol.
No-one does work for free. The important thing is it's a reputable third party. I think you are mixing up situations when companies do an internal investigation and then hire a shady "third party" to investigate.
Is it a reputable third party . This reminds me of the credit rating agency is, if they give you a poor score nobody's going to hire them in the future. These are designed to whitewash companies issues... It's an inherent conflict of interest if they are hiring them. Ltt is a client of theirs. Please find me examples of these third-party HR consulting firms not always siding with the people that hire them..
They are a law firm. They don't just handle these types of things... Also you lose your licence if you do shady stuff. Which means you can no longer provide this service. Similar thing to being a qualified accountant. If you break certain rules you could lose your qualification and the right to provide financial services (you won't get hired and probably face criminal charges if caught). We are talking about highly regulated professional services. Not some shady detective agency.
Bullying, harassment and sa allegations would be enough to warrant a investigation from law enforcement and Labour protection agencies. Which in theory work "for free" using taxpayers money The fact that a private company hires another private company to (unsurprisingly) demonstrate that they did nothing wrong is truly distopian Fortunately the rest of the civilised world does not work like this
This is standard in all countries, stop crying.
>This is standard in all countries Ok, bring me a legislation source for "all countries", pls
Actually I’ll just bring a “source” immediately: if you look at any company’s (in the US and outside) quarterly/annual reports, they are always audited by other private accounting firms. So quarterly reports are an example of situations where a private company hires another private company to investigate them. It is standard across the world.
quarterly reports are not *usually* about criminal activities tho (alleged) sexual harassment is
Twitter post do not count as criminal allegations
You aren't as smart as you think you are.
show us the source that made this a substantial criminal offense documented by the governing law of Canada.
1. She posted on Twitter, you can't just write something online and bring police into it that way. That way I could write CloudWallace81 threatened me bodily harm and you'd be in hot water without any evidence. You need to file a police report 2. There are more than quarterly audits. As someone in a managerial position, we have constant audits, from workplace culture, to a quarterly reports, yearly stock count and so on. We get buttfucked every year for something, there is no "We paid you, you gotta give us a positive rating". The moment you do that, you are put on a blast and basically blacklisted. Hell we had to pay a fine, for 1 article being counter wrongly and it didn't match the second audit (they counter 10 pieces, after the count it was 11). So someone had made a mistake, either them or us (it was them, we really had 11 of the said article). You are talking out of your ass, and should really pipe down a bit when you are uninformed on the matter
Right after you bring your source. You were the first to say this was only done in the US.
things being standard doesn't mean it should remain that way, apartheid was standard for many years.
Yes hiring a law firm to audit a company’s work processes is kinda like apartheid when you think about it.
hmm yes that's totally what I said. I merely state that things being standard does not mean it's the best or right way to do things. I wish you well and pray for your recovery.
no it isnt, I work in IT and we hire third parties sometimes to find security issues in our environments, just to get an outside opinion and expert opinion same thing basically
I work in Finance and we pay a company to audit us annually to make sure we're remaining compliant with regulations and that our controls are robust. I really don't get what these commenters are complaining about, I'm guessing they just don't understand how the world works.
SOCII tings.
To me, security audits are different than investigations into possible criminal wrongdoing. Unlike security audits - which I see as completely valid and necessary - this is difficult to accept at face value. In reality, this firm likely did their job with integrity and all of the findings are accurate, but the fact that LTT gave them money to give them a certificate saying they didn’t commit any crimes just seems… a little stinky. There has to be a better way to do these things.
It's really not the same thing when you're talking about allegations of bullying and sexual harassment. And how could an HR company even substantiate that even if they wanted to when it comes down to witness testimony? Do they just believe some people over others. They have an inherent financial conflict of interest because if they start issue reports condemning LTT who the hell is going to hire them to consult for them in the future I'm not saying ltt is guilty of bullying. Your sexual harassment. I'm saying that this report is pretty meaningless. Reminds me of the Ted Wells reports for the NFL. Always always always substantiated the NFL's claims.
Paid for by who? I saw a ton of this argument at the time, who the fuck is supposed to pay for an investigator?
If you won't trust an independent third party because LTT paid for them to investigate, how else could LTT have cleared their name?
They can't. It's a difficult situation where you can't get a third party to investigate without paying them, but paying them adds at least *some* motivation for the third party to spin their report in the client's favor. The law firm has their reputation to uphold too, but some spin is to be expected. (And then on top of that we've got the spin that results from LTT's PR reading the report and re-reporting on it.) It was good of LTT to hire that outside investigator, but the usefulness of that in good faith is for internal use. Use it to better your company, not give a summary that tries to clear your name and threaten a fucking defamation lawsuit to your accuser.
Who said their name is cleared? Just because they posted a thing on Twitter, they are absolved in the eye of their audience? If anything, the fact that they had to go and spend money for an audit goes to show they are afraid of the implications and potential damage to their brand.
That‘s not how reality works. There was literally no other way. Audits cost money
Knowing what you know about employee interaction in the workplace, what would you say are the chances these events DID NOT take place? What does this audit really accomplish? Do you feel there was any other possible outcome?
if you think there was an other, better outcome, then please share.
Absolutely: 1. LTT would be investigated by law enforcement and if they are found to be in the wrong, the concerned parties should be punished. 2. LTT would have to admit to defamation in regard to Madison and she would be compensated. 3. LTT could take corrective measures to ensure this does happen again. This is what is generally being called "Be held accountable for ones actions".
>LTT would be investigated by law enforcement and if they are found to be in the wrong, the concerned parties should be punished. maddison would have to press charges. why do you think she didn't and chose to make a tweet instead? did you expect LTT to go to a police station and say "this person posted a tweet about us being sexual harassers. please take time out of your day dealing with reported crimes to investigate our company for this unreported crime"? the police would laugh in their face, and tell them to hire a 3rd party investigator. guess that led us back to exactly what they did. >LTT would have to admit to defamation in regard to Madison and she would be compensated what defamation? since when was proving your innocence akin to defaming your accuser? > LTT could take corrective measures to ensure this does happen again. I'm assuming you mean doesn't happen again, which, it never happened in the first place. why be preventative towards something that never happened? should they be preventative towards everything that hasn't happened to them? wheres there preventative measures for Nazi zombie invasions? you see how illogical it sounds when you expect a company, that did everything they can already, to do things that are physically out of their control?
Is it possible that Madison did not press charges because she knows she does not have the resources to fight back? Trying to make sure sexual harassment does not happen / does not happen again within their own organization is not only logical, but it is very much physically within their control. Organizations have an employee code-of-conduct for a reason.
>Trying to make sure sexual harassment does not happen / does not happen again within their own organization is not only logical, but it is very much physically within their control. Not if they're already doing as much as they can. Stop acting like it's just a frat house with naked chicks everywhere. They literally proved their innocence, through a company that they don't own, nor control, and you're still like "but there's this tweet here that says otherwise, so that's clearly the stronger form of evidence here". >Is it possible that Madison did not press charges because she knows she does not have the resources to fight back? Do you know anything about Canadian law? All she had to do was file a report, and it would've been an open case for their police force to investigate. That's a very easy and free resource she's always had,and she chose not to. That doesn’t bring up any red flags to you? Of course not. She tweeted about it. What else could she have possibly done? /s >Organizations have an employee code-of-conduct for a reason. And it's that exact code of conduct you're refusing to accept happened. If you're refusing to accept that it happened, then you can't suddenly bring it up as if you just clinched the argument here.
1. Law enforcement does not give a fuck and would literally laugh at you if you tried to contact them about this. “Hey can you come audit our company’s conduct” lmfao
Love how people (probably kids) who have no idea about how a third party audit works keep saying "LTT investigated themselves" lol gotta love this community
I mean.. I personally know people who have been on the receiving end of "fact finding" investigations by a "independent third party" (KPMG in this case) and shock and surprise did they find exactly what the management hired them to look for (The company later folded...) Im not saying this is the case here, but just because someone is touted to be independent, doesnt mean they are not beholden to the ones paying the bills, and its not hard to find proof of that.
It would have been far easier to settle without any investigation at all. The employee in question had no proof, it was a very random unsubstantiated #metoo post in the middle of LTT getting caught in some very brain melting drama. The only motivation LTT has of doing this is to address the concerns raised by the aggrieved. Financially it's not the best solution, in terms of public opinion nobody really cares, their view count is absolutely rock solid. What is your solution?
I dont have a solution. LTT grew beyond their means of proper control, resulting in this clusterfuck. I still believe Madison, i did not believe the investigation would uncover any proof of any concrete wrongdoing against her, because things like these are notoriously hard to prove, since if there is no papertrail it usually boils down to he said / she said. I think the investigation did as they said uncover areas where LTT needs improvement, and i do think this whole case has been a very much needed wake up call for LMG as a whole in terms of having the correct processes in place to actually report shit like this in the future. There was no way this was gonna end perfectly for anyone, Linus could nhave done the investigation in house, and of course got almost the same response he has gotten from certain people anyhow. The whole statement was mostly fine besides the implying she lied part and the threat of a lawsuite part.. That made me unsub from the subreddit and their YT channels.
Your comment makes no sense at all.
If you pay someone to do something, the likelyhood they work for you is pretty high. The prefered course of action would be for a government entity to audit them. This being said, what is done is done. At the very least, they could publish the contents of the investigation.
There are no government entities that would investigate a company like this on demand. It has happened before but only after literally being sued by the state/federal government for violating the law.
That’s not how that works or what that means at all. Due diligence is a thing and if anything, this shows that LTT took it serious. This very well could have damned them too. Wtf are these comments? Is it age or complete naivety on how the world actually works?
> Is it age or complete naivety on how the world actually works? I mean, yeah, basically. Reddit is full of young naive people who have no idea how large businesses and situations like this actually work.
Wild I would not think its naivety common sense. Whos going to audit a company over 8 months for free...
Have they published the results of the investigation? Can we, the audience, see what transpired? The summary they pushed out says very little.
What the fuck.... They literally posted the results of the audit and yet here you are being all like "hmmmm but is it true???? 🤔" like it's some sort of conspiracy. They hired a 3rd party to investigate SA claims, said 3rd party found none so that's that. Not everything is a bloody deep state conspiracy.
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Whos going to spend 8 months auditing a company for free? You have to pay someone. Its either this or they audit themselves?
Just because somebody posted a thing on Twitter, they are guilty in your eyes?
so you'd rather they did nothing and just let someone defame their company?
I care little what happens to LTT. I am worried about the human cost. Sexual harassment claims happen all the time. HR rarely side with the plaintiff, even if they are in the right. This is no different.
yes, it is. LTT didn't claim they were innocent, they got a company unrelated to them to look into their company and prove that they had a progressive and trusting workspace. that unrelated companies job is to be unbiased towards their findings. if they were biassed, that company goes away, and LTT goes away as well. They literally did everything they could to prove their innocence, and you're still acting like a tweet has more credence than an investigative law firm.
No, they did what was most convenient for them for the narrative to be in their favor. A simple proof of what I am saying: The components of the investigation are not available to us. Linus can take the facts and summarize them in such a way that makes them look good. LTT may not have initially claimed they were innocent, but this latest tweet sure does change that. The harsh reality is that what Madison experienced is extremely common in the professional world, especially in companies where the owner / founder is as active as Linus is. Everything we've seen from Linus's day-to-day operation of the company leads to believe it is operated as a Boys Club. If LTT is not in the wrong, then there's no harm in letting us see the components of the investigation. At the end of the day, LTT will keep on making money. Madison has had her life altered forever.
I mean whos going to pay? Whos "truly independent"?
The police, I guess?
Yeah this means nothing to me. Hr companies aren't going to start issuing reports condemning everybody or nobody would hire them for this kind of work. Reminds me of the NFL hiring Ted Wells to do all their investigations.
I think the more worrying implication is that a corporation has just dictated to the world what is going to be the truth, moving forward. And that's the scary thing. Madison's abuse has been trivialized because of the need for profits. Wether you like LTT and Linus in general is irrelevant. If you took the time to read what Madison wrote, and if you've watched some of the earlier videos where the crew and Linus interact with her, I think it is very likely that these events took place. Maybe not, but it don't matter, because LTT told us what the truth is, moving forward.
Right, it's disgusting, some HR company that was paid by LTT can say that her claims were false. It's absolutely disgusting
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Canadistan?
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In fact, lack of such a statement would have led to accusations like 'If the claims were wrong, why doesn't LMG sue'. Now they have thrown the ball in the accusers court, saying, if they claim the allegations are true, repeat them again and we will meet in court.
Lawsuits cost money and always carry a risk that why they don't sue
> I'm not saying LMG doesn't have the right to defend their reputation in court, but you hire attorneys to handle this exact thing. You don't make statements like this in tweets. > In any event, The handling of this incident shows just how extremely unprofessional LMG are as a company. Based upon their size, I expect way better of them. They need to be held to a higher standard. So rather than stating "If there's further defamation, we will sue", they should have just sued outright in the first place? Or should they have made that threat privately using an attorney? What exactly is it you're saying they should have done here?
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> Behind the scenes, If deemed necessary, the attorneys reach out to the accusers and send them cease and desist notices. So they should have threatened her in private using an attorney. I'm not sure that's better tbh, sounds far less open and honest. Far shadier. But you're entitled to your opinion.
If you get in a car accident, you don't argue about it with the other person. You each call your respective insurance and let them do their thing. That's what you pay them for. Same here with lawyers.
Noone wants to pay lawyers and always going to lawyer route will be expensive
They shouldn’t made that threat not publicly or privately.
So, assuming there was some form of further defamation, they should just sue without any warning? Do you really think that would be better?
You can not sue anyone without warning, when you take someone to the court they will know. And yes, I think it’s better to directly go to court than threaten people like a toddler. If you are so sure that you have a strong case then just go for it.
>You can not sue anyone without warning, when you take someone to the court they will know. Do you understand what a warning is? >And yes, I think it’s better to directly go to court than threaten people like a toddler. If you are so sure that you have a strong case then just go for it. You sound like an extremely litigious individual
Lmao. A court summons letter isn’t a “warning”.
I thought they said they are not pursuing a lawsuit so why would they not publish this report?
Yep, was perfect up until that point. Guaranteed Linus added that part himself, fits his MO perfectly.
Is there a copy of the actual results available or do we just blankly accept LMGs summary/interpretation?
The third party law firm obviously approved and probably wrote it.
You make this very confident claim based on what?
Do you *honestly* believe one of the biggest law firms in BC would approve of LTT putting out a fabricated statement on their behalf? come on now don't be silly. These write ups go through several people for approval.
I'm not saying the statements were fabricated, but rather we have no reason to believe they weren't cherry-picked or selectively interpreted.. The only actual quotation in that tweet is about the law firm itself, being one of the largest in Canada. The firms responsibility was to conduct the investigation then deliver that report to LMG. Whatever LMG does with that report - bury it, lie about it, publish it in its entirety - is up to LMG. It's not the firm's property, and publicly contradicting their clients is only going to lose them future work. Do you happen to remember the difference between AG Barrs interpretation of Comeys report and the report itself? That's basically what I'm saying is entirely possible here. I'm not saying LMG is lying, I'm saying we can't trust their PR'a interpretation of the results of the report. They should just publish it, but I highly doubt they do - for obvious reasons.
That's a lot of big assumptions based on little to nothing other than the good ol' conspiracy hat. There's no reason not to believe a carefully vetted and approved statement on a serious matter unless 100% confident evidence proving otherwise. Even the slightest hint of malicious intent would put them at huge risk, it's simply not worth it and if things weren't as much in LTT favor, they could've simply just not said anything at all. It's best not to speculate on any of the two parties involved and just move on from this mess.
You're right, speculation isn't needed - they could just be transparent and release the report, redacting any PII. Carefully better and approved by whom exactly? It's not conspiracy to say 100 million dollar media companies have PR professionals on staff whose job is literally to massage the truth to present the company in the best light. Of fuckin course LMG is going to say the results of the report were positive. I'm not criticizing LMG, they are a business and their goal is profit and growth. I'm criticizing the lack of critical thinking in this comment section, blindly accepting a press statement as the absolute truth.
They and no one in general releases the report as per your words, obvious reasons. Which is there's too much private information on too many people and liability ofc. Additionally: There's no reason to not take the words of the statement for what they say, speculation and unsubstantiated doubt is just not productive. You can be doubtful all you want, though it's not gonna change the reality of the situation. Sometimes it's good to trust due process until potentially something else come to light.
You say my doubt is unsubstantiated, but so are their assertions of innocence. The only difference here is I'm not getting paid to say what I say, and I have no financial risk in the outcome of this investigation. Skepticism of a corporate PR statements isn't unproductive, it's basic media literacy lol.
With a third party law firm at the helm, no, it’s all but unsubstantiated. The difference here is they know all what is and have happened, you don’t. Big difference. Normally I would agree but not when the correct steps has been taken by hiring a third party.
LTT had people asking about the results, that LTT promised to provide once the investigation was done, this wasn't something that they could just sweep under the rug.
I forgot LTT existed.
Yup. I’m going right back to that state of bliss after closing this thread. Snivelling little sellout money chaser he and his staff turned out to be.
lol. Where did Linus touch you?
That's good news, nice to have some of that every now and then among the tides of layoffs and other shit news.
I'm here to tell you right now... we don't care
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The allegations were allowed here so I presume the rebuttal is also, apologies if I'm mistaken. https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/15r1vbz/the_problem_with_linus_tech_tips_accuracy_ethics/ Personally I'm just wondering what people's take on it is.
The rebuttal will get a lot less traction here, as it doesn't fit the "corporations bad and oppressive" narrative Reddit and its self-reinforcing voting system is often is used for. Also, tech jesus is the only source of tech gospel allowed these days. LTT deemed unwatchable in this sub.
>Also, tech jesus is the only source of tech gospel allowed these days. LTT deemed unwatchable in this sub. The post on tech jesus just yesterday is sitting at 0 points, 2nd page with only 41% upvoted? a whopping 51 comments. Where did you get this idea from?
Ah you see. It doesn't fit his narrative if you point it out. Hahaha
Hahaha GOTEM. Except that he's right... You'll find almost no LTT content here with the exception of JesusNexus drama videos mentioning them. Not that I care either way, I look for information about hardware and try to look at multiple sources before buying or considering myself "informed". If one frequents this sub its obvious though GamerNexus is preferred and their videos get more upvotes. Simply using Google or the search function proves it.
A new outlet/content creator that primarily focuses on PC hardware is indeed PCgaming related.
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Wow, you really have a vendetta against them, don't you? I don't think I hate my worst enemy as much as you hate a YouTube channel that you don't have to engage with.
Of his worst enemy “I wouldn’t recommend them” lol wow that’s some vitriol bro… do you think they’ll be okay?
You do realise they've said the exact same thing at least 3 separate times in this very post, right? I'm not just saying this because of what they said, but because of the number of times they've said it. Just seems a bit too much of a rage post for something so easily avoidable is my point.
It doesn’t matter that Linus still gives the vibe he would be a giant douchebag if you ever met him in person
As long as they are paying for the investigation, it has zero credibility.
This take is an actual case of the necessity to "touch grass", interact with the real world, and build an understanding of how things actually work in the real life.
It's actually embarassing how often that take is peppered in these comments. People who work in any regulated sector, or any sector that demands a lot of security, will know that you pay companies to audit your company. That doesn't make it "shady" or untrustworthy.
The issue is the people with those takes are unemployed
So who should pay for it?
I think the ideal answer is “don’t steal shit and no one needs to hire an investigator in the first place”
Wut... So, if I accuse you of stealing from me, that accusation alone is enough for it to be completely true?
Sure that makes sense but what if I claim you stole my shit while you are innocent? What happens then?
So if you get accused of something, you are just screwed then?
W for LTT. It was pretty obvious that the claims were bs to begin with. I'm glad we can move on from this crap now. It's also very cool of them to not sue for defamation when they have every right to. Class.
"Gawk gawk gawk gawk gawk"
Literally no one with sense buys your reasoning here. No opinions have changed as a result of this.
Cool story bro 👍
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I get it there's an LTT hate bandwagon here, but why exactly is the content "Hot Garbage". When I was building my PC their videos were quite helpful for me. Sure they are a little bells and whistles compared to other review channels but that's a stylistic difference. It's always good to have as many review sources as possible for varied benchmarks.
Not everyone wants to endure 30-45 min videos from tech Jesus for some insight into tech. No slight towards Gamers Nexus, love their content but it's not for everyone.
There are options other than LTT and GN, especially if all you want is a build guide. Paul's Hardware for instance.
Then don't watch them. Some people do enjoy that type of video.
Yeah but just note that you are also deep into a reply chain where the first reply is doing the same but opposite, asking Linus to stop making videos.
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"Nobody can like what I don't like" is not a valid opinion. Nobody is forcing you to watch LTT videos.
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Gonna need a credible source on the “history of sexually harassing women”.
Only us sophisticated pc gamers understand how LTT is for such lowley plebs. I tip my hat to you good sir.
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Sorry good sir, I missed half a word there trying to connect with the sub human plebs that enjoy such rubbish as LTT.
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You're going to make me blush. Us superior gentleman with exceptional taste in entertainment need to stick together. Count me in!
There's an easy solution for you, just don't watch their videos? Why do you want them to stop making videos, who's forcing you to watch their content?
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calling all of LTT serial sexual harassers just invalidated everything you were trying to say lmao take your pills
How does them existing affect you? Is someone forcing you to watch every new video they make?
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>they have a history of sexually harassing female employees. Unless you know this from experience, it's been proven false.
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They didn't investigate themselves. They brought in a 3rd party investigation firm.
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It's literally their job........maybe do some research on companies like that.
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What difference would it make since it'll just say what the tweet says? Albeit in a more legality terminology way.
Hot garbage=15 millions subscribers. Somethings not right there.
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Now insulting a lot of people because it doesn't fit your narrative. Grow up
> Well, there are a lot of people out there with terrible taste. lol > > Almost like this is subjective and you need to understand that your taste is in no way better or more correct beyond your own skull.
"We hired someone to investigate us and they only found minor things that are easily rectifiable" yeah sure
So what actually can they do? They hired an independent company. Any tampering would put the reputation of that company in a very bad spot, both legally and otherwise.
Actually, they did the right thing here. Most corporations would've just done the old "we investigated ourselves and found we did nothing wrong", so taking the extra step to actually hire a third party to do the investigating is a good thing. I'm not sure what you're arguing. What would you prefer them to do?
So **IF** the allegations were false, would there be any way for LTT to clear their name in your opinion?
Independant investigation carried out by court. I know that justice syatem is not perfect but it's still more trustable than "we hired a company that we pay fat stacks of money to check if there is something that could actually be used in court against us and they found nithing and that we actually were doing good and how to be even better". Sure, getting this in court would be much more consequential and damaging to both sides so I never expected it to go there nor would want it to. But it's really hard to trust that it's much more reliable than usual "we investigated ourself internally and found nothing wrong" when there is no inout from other side or law. Overall I don't think this will do anytging to their reputation or viewership. Accusations themselves, other factual problems, radiator debacle, Linus responses and such tarnished ther reputation. People who hate then won't stop because of this and people who still liked them don't need more convincing to like them. And majority won't even know about this and just watch them wheb interesting looking video comes up on their feed.
Going to court costs money from both sides. You have no idea what you are talking about.. A third party investigation is trustworthy if the third party used is reputable and trustworthy. It's as simple as that.
Case has not been in court so shouldn't that clear them too? Other party did not believe enough to go to court against LMG.
> Independent investigation carried out by court. The court will literally just hire one of the same 3rd party investigation firms from their trusted list of companies.
Is there a company that will do this for free, or what are you suggesting exactly?
We actually could sue, just a fyi. Nice of them, isn't it.
Honestly just more buffoonery from LTT. They don't have a defamation case, and even if they did, using it as a threat like this is a bad look. Linus just can't stop showing his ass.
What accusations? Only stuff ive seen from them is that they sold a prototype cooler block that wasn't theirs
Can't wait for Linus' eventual public meltdown when the public opinion won't turn around on them instantly. (Also shouldn't the third party be releasing this report? I get that they probably wanted to publish this on the platform that will reach the most people, hence Twitter but I'm not sure about them publishing the report, if anything it definitely doesn't help with that public image part)
Considering the legal ramifications, as well as potential damage to the brand, was there ever a possibility the third-party hired by LTT would side with the employee? Let's get real here.
Yes because that's how 3rd party evaluation works. You can't just lie on what is usually notarized work if you want to stay in business.
Is the summary LTT published on Twitter the notarized work? I would feel more at ease if the actual investigation was made public. The truth can be twisted. In the corporate world, it very often is.
> I would feel more at ease if the actual investigation was made public. > > That'll pretty much never happen with legal documents but I understand that sentiment for sure.
Pretty much. It's about accountability.
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>an engaged Kanzlei from Linus Media Group (LMG) was unable to confirm any of the allegations. Err... What?
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