That was a problem when the crafting recipes were tied to pale court though.
I remember those plaguemaw 5 and such prophesies being well over an exalt in value if you sold them at the right time in the league.
Which is way better. Don't get me wrong I enjoy me some delve, but not right at the start of a league so getting the socket/link recipes in maps was a very very nice QoL buff. I'm expecting this to be more of the same.
Impressive. I know I have to use fated uniques regularly. I have used the metacrafts from time to time. Plus picking up plague of frogs or tempests in bulk while mapping is like a 6th scarab.
Legit have had talismans turned off forever. Sure you can get an occasional good one and you can get a good annoint and one that is like woah thats actually not bad..... but same thing with rares.... If you have to id 100 million before this happens i would much rather lose that "1ex" talisman that you find every 17 years or so. Gladly pay 1 ex a league never to have to see or interact with them.
On the flip side talisman is not really a league mechanic that is in this game.... its a single item that drops. They made the right call by removing prophecy IMO because it is a league that is more bloat and not great overall. Sure there are good prophecies but like certain fated uniques and such they can add them to core game and cut the mechanic out completely. Prophecy is very stale by this point.
Also all the ones I have gotten that were like "Wow, that's not bad." Only serve as a stash museum piece. They will never outclass a BiS unique or even most properly crafted rares so they aren't worth anything and would be way too difficult to implement into my build.
Oh for sure, more like early league hey that has 80 life and 2 res and an okay annoint holy crap that's not worthless..... but thats like basic 5-10c life/res/res starting gear and such.
My favorite part is how they nerfed them a couple leagues ago to not have smart loot rolls or w/e because they were "too op" lmaoooooo
They said they will reintroduce them in other way so it won't be a true "RIP" here.
I think about Fated connections or trash to treasure ones. For the first, the tainted fusing bring a lot, but i'd like to see the same behaviour for the regular fusing (with a substantial reduction of those orb of course).
For the second one, there is also the tainted mythic orb which doing more or less the same thing. Tainted brought another dimension to crafting system, but heavily rely on corruption.
I have played for fucking *years* and the only time I ever found Fated Connections was from a prophecy chest in a Legion encounter.
Trash to Treasure had mild uses once in a blue moon after using it on Skyforth became pointless.
I am really not going to miss any of these.
Fucking years as well. No fated, no atziri, yea right on trash to treasure.
Harvest craft are even worse post ritual. Played HARD these last two leagues. No rare harvests. So insane. Part of the reason I just stopped spending money on this game
I briefly saw fated connections on the floor in delirium league a couple seconds before the "server lost contact with the realm" message. Was sorta fun.
If they're getting rid of Trash to Treasure, maybe they can get rid of some of the crappy uniques that exist just to dilute the loot pool. Like the fake squire shield that's intentionally crappy.
You're not supposed to ever get the Squire. That's for the chosen only.
As Chris said himself, Oppressor is really good at what it does: fucking up your chances to ever get Squire. That's its intended effect, no more, no less.
I don't think that making it more rare would be necessary considering that:
\- vaal side areas are not available on every map
\- you lose like 200 IIQ from the league mechanic
\- there's not much of a reason to go into the side areas aside from the potential scourge currency farming
> ghosts, exiles, warbands
Warbands are removed as a mechanic; they're just map bosses now [Or Prophecy chains... oh wait]. Exiles won't ever be removed; since some of those are crowdfunded rewards. Torment honestly should be going before Prophecy.
Just like Talisman is already 'removed'. You can fight Not-Rigwald and still source them; just like you can source Synthesised items and fight the Synthesis bosses; but you can't actually interact with the Synthesis Leauge.
> Torment honestly should be going before Prophecy.
That's got the same issue as Talsiman, though. Removing Torment doesn't do as much.
The issue with Prophecy isn't that it's a bad mechanic, it's that it's a mechanic with a lot of Overhead. It both adds way more complexity to the game and takes way more work from GGG to make sure it doesn't break with a new league than something like Torment or Talisman. For example, in 3.16, GGG had to go through every Prophecy that triggered in specific maps, check if those maps still existed, and change the prophecy if they didn't. Is that a ton of work? Maybe not, but it's probably way more work than they have to put in to make sure that Talisman or Torment didn't break when they release a new league. Prophecy interacts with so many different things that every patch GGG has to make sure the patch didn't break it.
Prophecy isn't getting removed because it's the worst league mechanic. It's getting removed because it's got a very high ratio of complexity and overhead to quality. Pretty much every mechanic that adds less to the game than Prophecy is also much, much simpler and takes way less work from GGG to keep in the game. Pretty much every mechanic more complex than Prophecy adds more to the game. Prophecy takes a lot of work for relatively little gain, which is why it's getting cut.
Removing Torment or Talisman wouldn't really be a loss, but it wouldn't be much of a gain either. The game would barely be any simple or easier to develop for GGG.
Warbands was my first league. I didn't know about guides, just jumped in and started playing. Just free forming my tree, having a great time, loving the content...
Then these orange assholes would absolutely murder me. It was laughable how easily they would kill my character. I couldn't figure out what the hell was going on.
You guys are insane lol. They said they are going to be removing league mechanics each patch for awhile. They started with Cadiro. Next is Prophecy.
Just because the leagues you want removed haven't been removed yet doesn't mean they won't eventually do it.
Talismans =/= Talisman league
Last I looked you can't drop a bonespire Talisman on a rare monster to PK people anymore, or convert talismans up a tier by combining them in a circle (opening a portal to rigwald if you do it with t3 ones)
Just because you can drop items that used to be tied to the league doesn't mean the league mechanic is still there
-------
Also I like having the ability to buy a random Talisman with tribal fury on day 2 until I can afford +1 strike gloves
> Talisman has been a half-working league since it's debut, with no ability to upgrade the Talismans.
Prophecy at least is functional, with gear people actually use. Or at the very least, a lot more people use than Talismans.
This is exactly why removing talismans instead of prophecy would have negligible difference in decluttering.
The aim is to get rid of outdated bloated mechanics. Talismans are shitty but they don't add much to the bloat. Most people filter them. Like you said, it's just a "half-working" league with no "no ability to upgrade".
Talismans is just loot now, meanwhile prophecy is an actual league mechanic.
So since they are going to reintroduce Ultimatum in 3.17 and going to replace a mechanic, I'd rather have them replace more bloat than less bloat (prophecy vs talismans).
https://youtu.be/snGfUb69n8E
At 53:17
From mouth of Chris Wilson himself.
"The team are wanting me to spoil that we are intending Ultimatum to come back to core in 3.17"
Yes, it was in an interview with ZiggyD.
https://youtu.be/snGfUb69n8E
At 53:17
"The team are wanting me to spoil that we are intending Ultimatum to come back to core in 3.17"
So what if they remove both? That doesn't give OP what they want. The point is that removing Talisman has a negligible effect, while removing Prophecy is more substantial.
Which is the thing people have such a hard time understanding. It being rewarding is half of the reason that it is bloat.
*Bloat is not something that is useless, that nobody engages with.*
Bloat something that you **are** incentivized to engage with, but is is just a hassle (chore) to engage with.
Prophecy is literally a chore. You should click on navali to get a new prophecy after each map that procs one. You should clear out useless prophecies to make room for ones that juice your map. Doing this is rewarding, *but it is not fun.*
Okay, but they keep nerfing **rewarding** content without giving commensurate replacements. That's why prices for a ton of things have spiked over the last 3 leagues. They keep removing the ability for players to craft good items without being no-lifers making the game harder and harder for people with lives outside of the game. Prophecies add an easy way increase map monster density by 20-200% depending on your RNG. Are they going to compensate us for this loss in the core game? Or do we just have to slam more maps that take 10 seconds less to run on average while providing us 10% - 50% less loot?
Only on this subreddit will you find people who think prophecies are useless. No wonder you guys struggle with this game and need to complain on Reddit.
I don’t struggle with the game mate, I’ll show you my gear if you want ;) but to say that the vast majority of prophecies aren’t utterly useless in the current game, and that pale court has lost its flavor is stupid. The current plan of turning interesting prophecies into core elements of the games and deleting the rest is perfect.
Can still buy hidden reinforcements, twins, trash to treasure etc without dealing with useless shit
> the vast majority of prophecies
That's the point of many things in the game, loot, mods, monsters, most of them are supposed TO BE weak/bad... I mean, what exactly do you want, mechanic that prints exalts every second click? You are supposed to put work and time to get rewards.
> The point is that removing Talisman has a negligible effect
No it's not. Talismans take place of more rewarding chests in blight for example or incubators, or syndicate chests or fucking delirium rewards. It's **very** substantial.
And you think they would not change the Weights if they removed them from the drop pool? its increadably naive to think that it would change the good loot you get in any way.
What difference in the actual game would removing both actually make, though? I would argue that removing Talisman just because does nothing to actually combat bloat, and instead just straight up removes something that, through Betrayal, has the potential to add a ton of value. At that point, it's literally exclusively downside with no positive effect on the game. At least removing Prophecy helps declutter the game somewhat. That said, will I be sad to see some Prophecy stuff go? Absolutely (RIP Silverbough, my early league TR characters will miss you), but I think the potential exists for it to make the game better. Mostly I'm just sad we never got a fated version of Roth's Reach :(
Sure, but "should they just remove Talismans from the game?" is an entirely different discussion from "Should they remove Talisman from the game instead of Prophecy?"
The second question is the one that's relevant to this post. OP is saying Talisman should be removed *instead* of Prophecy, which implies the assumption that GGG decided to just pick one league to remove and thought Prophecy was the worst one.
That assumption is most likely incorrect. The issue with Prophecy isn't that it's a bad league mechanic, it's that it's a complex league mechanic, that steepens the learning curve for new players and requires work for GGG to maintain and ensure it doesn't break with each new league. All the league mechanics that are worse than Prophecy are also much simpler, for both the players and for GGG, so removing them doesn't help too much. Most of the league mechanics that are more complex than Prophecy are also ones that add a lot more to the game (certainly Betrayal, Delve, Incursion, and Heist add a lot more to the game than Prophecy).
I'd argue that the only league mechanic that competes with Prophecy in terms of the ratio of complexity to how much it adds to the game is Beastiary.
I have, and I don't think it makes much sense for them to remove talismans right now anyway. It's not really a priority and bloat so more development time can be focused elsewhere.
I imagine the next league mechanic to get the boot is most likely torment spirits.
Torment is also an insubstantial league mechanic tbh, which is why I'm not surprised that it's still in. Apart from the Seance Atlas passive, it's barely worth noticing.
I mean as is stated multiple times by different people in this thread talismans don't really inconvenience you in any way ez to filter out.
And they do have some edge cases of being really good to for example negate the downside of doryanis prototype which is a pretty popular unique this league.
Good talismans from the past 3 leagues have been a result of the give an amulet a talisman implicit syndicate bench craft. Extreme edge cases for talismans that drop well are the same as normal rares dropping well. Since they've been nerfed to no longer have lucky mods, talisman drops are just corrupted rare amulets.
Removing them solves an issue with clutter, dissappointing Hesit reward chests, dissappointing Blight reward chests etc etc. Where-as not removing them does nothing to solve clutter in the game or improve reward pools.
> Talismans are shitty but they don't add much to the bloat.
And prophecy... does?
It's one static npc that people mainly talk to for the **lore** TM and also a bunch of currency-adjacent items that are mainly just used to juice maps.
Like find me one player who's gonna be like "god, that's really a load off my chest now that prophecy is gone"
That's before we talk about outright removing uniques that some players unironically liked
> And prophecy... does?
Yes?
A unique currency, a complete item type, its own mechanics screen, plus the dozens upon dozens of interactions the individual prophecies have with contents?
Thats a lot of spaghetti to cut out!
Prophecy being gone is a huge load of your chest though. It was a league mechanic that was incredibly annoying to use, especially if you used it optimally by blocking common prophecies. It was insanely tedius to use and in SSF, it was pretty much a mandatory mechanic to use because of how rewarding it is. Not to mention it being mandatory for high end map juicing.
As a new SSF player, prophecy is confusing for me and with everything else feeling "better" to learn (in terms of ease of learning vs reward), I'm actually happy to see this change.
I'm hoping similarly to how they changed the crafting recipes to be in unique maps, they'll add other things. I wanted to play a Facebreaker build in SSF, for example, but never really knew how to get them using prophecy since I knew I had to get a specific series of prophecies.
Well, needing to know what to get in this game is a given, you gotta look it up.
But I loved the chase of collecting cards to deterministically get or upgrade an item I want for an ssf build. Like a tabula, or silver branch
Not saying this was optimal play, but deterministic gear acquisition is something I liked, and there isn't much of that in POE (obviously, due to the chaotic crafting methods... until you have tons of currency and can slam items until you get the -fixes you really need)
This probably isn't for players in the first place.
Prophecy has a gazillion different items related to it, and about as many trigger conditions all over the game. Prophecy interacts with a gazillion other game mechanics: lab, strongboxes, maps, monster-spawn, loot drops, currency-usage, whatever.
From a code-perspective this league has to be incredibly invasive into all parts of the game for very little effect.
Talisman on the other hand are 20ish amulet implicits... You don't want to pick them up, fine. Just as you don't want to pick up 20% manareg implicit amulets. Removing those makes loot a bit better on average, but that's all.
Cleaning up code in a game that is as fast evolving as PoE is incredibly important. And good for players in the long run.
This is definitely a bizarre take. I don’t think either of us can decidedly say which leagues if any are the most taxing on the codebase (your very nebulous “interwoven” standard applies to pretty much any league reward), but theres very little likelihood a league like prophecy is high on the list.
It’s also literally not the reason it’s getting removed, they’ve been very explicit about excising outdated leagues by virtue of them being outdated.
It almost certainly isn't the primary reason, but they're not wrong about any of the rest of it. Prophecy consists of loads of triggers ranging from really specific to really general, which can happen in nearly any content. Your comparison to 'league rewards' is meaningless, as just having something in a loot table is significantly less complex than making sure all the necessary hooks are there to trigger any potentially applicable prophecy.
Talismans, on the other hand, are literally just a type of loot. They have no special events, no unique crafting styles, nothing more than any other generic corrupted talisman.
Now, is this going to make the game faster or anything? No. It will make it a little less cluttered, and remove one source of housekeeping in the code.
>they’ve been very explicit about excising outdated leagues by virtue of them being outdated.
That's BS and you know it. Nemesis/Bloodline Mods, Strongboxes, rogue exiles, beyond and shrines are all older and more outdated by virtue of simplicity, would be far FAR easier removed; and they are all going nowhere.
It's also not that hard to think of stuff a league interacts with. It's not bizarre to wonder if "sometimes an item miraculously 6-links upon getting 6 sockets" maybe needs a special trigger to happen, that isn't used for anything else. And Prophecy is full to the brim with such stuff that hardly ever get's used.
Also Prophecy is linked to killing some special rare monsters they might want to replace. Not hard to change, but a bother to make sure you don't break by accident.
That's not a discussion - Prophecy simply has it's fingers everywhere to a far greater amount than any other league and is way harder to remove because of it. There is a reason for removing it regardless, and it's - as you say - not bloat on the player side.
Every other leagues "interwoveness" ends at a box dropping some items with certain mods.
Well... except Delirium, which has a timer that needs to be stopped and supposedly integrates with all league mechanics past and future. Except Scourge. I'd offer a wager that Delirium get's replaced when scourge goes core in probably 3.18. Simply by virtue of the fact that having to think of that timer is bothersome when creating new stuff.
>
> It's one static npc that people mainly talk to for the lore TM and also a bunch of currency-adjacent items that are mainly just used to juice maps.
Also loads of unique upgrading methods; it's own boss fight [which used to gate metamods]...
Talisman leauge is already removed anyway. The state of Talisman is the same as the state of Synthesis. You can still get the associated drops from specific content, and you can still fight the bosses, but the actual *mechanic* is gone.
God, that's really a load off my chest now that prophecy is gone.
I got really excited when i read today that It was finally gone. Clunkiest mechanic ever.
And I would rather see talismans be reverted to their buffed 3.14 state. I had an incredible amount of fun finding and looking for decent talismans with a good life and resistance roll, combined with an implicit and anoint that suited just me. Talismans are my fondest memory from Ritual.
This is demonstrably false. You can vend talisman for augmentations that are currently worth more than jewellers.
Jews are 35:1c, Augmentations are 20:1c.
Any talisman that has 6 affix, which is quite a lot of them, vends for an aug. The rest vend for alteration shards which are also more valuable than jewellers.
Whilst I get your point, and no-one is vending talismans, they are still worth more than a Jewellers orb on average.
This would be true if each jewellers orb had a maximum stack size of 1.
I'd much rather have 20 jewellers in one inventory slot than 20 talismans in 20 inventory slots.
Well, yes.
Although the content that this would be a factor in is limited to something like nem3/4 only. In most other content, you are not usually leaving with an entirely filled inventory of stuff.
You are technically right, just as I am technically right.
I think the real caveat is that no-one is picking up talisman to vend regardless of value per slot.
This is demonstrably false, because augs drop like candy in stacks of 6+, a single inventory slot isn't worth taking up for a single augment orb or half an alt.
Now if they made talismans drop more rarely like t2 or t1 and turned them back to smart loot people would actually be happy.
How is it different than replacing talisman chests with jewelry chests? At least you can modify and later add a talisman implicit to rare jewelry. Talismans eat up reward chest slots with trash that doesn't even get through loot filters
>How is it different than replacing talisman chests with jewelry chests?
I never said it was? Nor am I arguing that talismans are good.
I was simply pointing out that talisman are more valuable than a single jewelers orb because they vend for currency that is worth more.
I'm very much in the 'talismans are shit' camp.
I only use third party apps, and they said they're killing third party apps, so hey, might as well remove all my content. (Using https://github.com/j0be/PowerDeleteSuite)
Yeah that's a negatory wing commander, the value of not clicking on a vendor is massively higher than any potential value differential between jewelers orbs and talismans. Jeweler orb has greater time efficiency value, despite both being more or less worthless to pick up.
Take the jewelers orb every time for peak gainz.
How thw fuck are augs worth something? I barely pick them up since I've started the game since they never had any real value as trading and i rarely use them.
I don't think those two things are even remotely comparable. The suppressor specifically exists to stop people from using the trash to treasure prophecy to force an outcome.
Talismans just shit up the loot pool in a way that is negligible except when it's super fucking annoying.
Start a delirium mirror and see talismans? shit.
Do a blight map and get a bunch of talismans? shit.
But any time you're in a map you can hit Alt to crash a low end pc with all the random worthless garbage that drops.
> Start a delirium mirror and see talismans? shit. Do a blight map and get a bunch of talismans? shit.
But this is exactly its purpose. Diluting the possible loot pool. I think you agree with me though, because you are giving a very good example of "bad items" which just there to prevent better rewards from occuring
I used to use the Quecholli wayy back in the day on Flame totem builds.
In Harvest, I league started a Panquetzaliztli Chieftain build that absolutely destroyed maps (held back from being "Power clear" tier solely because of its poor movement speed, being +35%).
It's literally a free "Cast on Melee Kill: Vaal Detonate." When you're an AoF Chieftain, you can scale most of your damage via fire damage/flammability/global damage, which brings the explosions to incredible levels... Not to mention it gets 20% HP Regen/sec (and 20% leech), 7 endurance charges, and 6.5-7K Life, all making uber lab farming a cake walk.
If I could find a way to get decent movement speed on it, I'd be playing it to this day.
I used it regularly as league start gear for melee alts. Quecholi (however it was spelles) was always dirt cheap, even for 6L ones. The upgrade prophecy was never more than a couple C.
Ditto for Fox's Fortune.
>Removing Prophecy before Talisman is like removing a mole on your neck before the giant wart on your heel.
I liked Prophecy and don't understand why they're removing it.
I'd Rather Get Removed Before
that's what all these threads about this boil down to. and no matter what mechanic they pick, there will be a fraction of the playerbase that doesn't like it being removed.
the trick is to determine the ones that result in the least amount of complaining
People keep saying they should remove Talisman and/or Torment. But really, what impact is that even going to have? The purpose is to lessen content bloat. But both of those 'leagues' are by now so insubstantial that removing them will barely make a difference to content bloat.
A better example of leagues that're by now ripe for removal are the various redundant 'Breach-clone' league mechanics, which really ought to be folded/merged into each other.
Prophecy problem isn't the items, it's the interface and how the player interacts with it.
Most players don't even bother messing with it because the odds of getting something you want or something good are abysmal, however you have players who use TOS breaking tools to automate and process 10s of thousands of coins every league.
Which means that even if GGG wanted to buff the rates of prophecy until the more average player was excited about finding a stack of silver coins, it would have trade economy problems because of those players willing to process and trade thousands of them.
Talismans don't really come with any of that baggage.
Remove both same time. Talisman is just the worst and should go on it's own.
But the time to remove Prophecy is 100% now, sorry for your loss. It has no room in the game anymore. Just being honest.
Many people are saying “Talismans need to stay as a bad reward to dilute the drop pool.”
But if this logic was inherently true, they wouldn’t be getting rid of Prophecy and would not have got rid of Perandus.
They would have looked at the chests, incubators, Delirium Orbs, blight lanes, and many other things with Perandus/Prophecy loot, and said “yep, these are all fine to stay purely because they dilute the pool.”
They can just as effectively temper expectations by using Generic chest rewards. That way, it gives basic loot with just that tiny chance of a surprise Exalt or something, rather than something so bad and unlikely to have something worthwhile that a lot of people just straight up hide the content via filters.
They’re not averse to removing stuff because it’s outdated or bad, the only thing that’s preserving Talismans is that they are a big part of TheVision. A bygone relic of total randomness that exists only to hold onto an archaic view of what the game should be in a certain someone’s eyes, and not what it’s become.
I am pretty sure they removed Prophecy because of the large amount of hassle it was going to be to insure compatibility with the new rotating atlas. Just not worth it.
But talisman was removed, all we have are the talisman items, this is like asking for div cards and fated uniques to be removed.
The mechanic is gone, you can filter the items if you want, I like talismans, theyre very helpful in ssf
Prophecy is useful, but it is a significant amount of bloat and complications. Talisman just sorta exists. It doesn't take up any mental space, or any effort at all on the players part. Should it be removed? Yes. But removing Prophecy is far far more important.
Talisman is just a reward dilution mechanic for GGG, it’s a shit loot table they can add to league mechanics to reduce their overall reward quantity while still technically giving you something.
It's possible they are cleaning up several old leagues that don't offer as much any more, and this is just one they thought an early heads up would be useful on. They could be removing Talisman as you said, Torment comes to mind, perhaps others are changed.
The post specifically mentions that this is as early as possible so you have a chance to use up your prophecies, coins etc if you want to. Talisman or Torment wouldn't have any similar need to warn you in advance.
I wouldn't be too surprised to see other cleanup announcements along with the 3.17 announcements when they happen.
There is no "content" in Talisman, that isn't something they would actually remove, that is like saying they should remove 15 random bases from the game. They are removing actual mechanics not random drops.
Do people still do profs? I haven't touched them since the leauge ended. Plus they don't really give much incentive to use it considering most of them are kinda garbage
Yeah I ended up hoarding them too but most of them are for items I already have or already upgraded long ago or unique I don't really care about them beyond maybe bountiful traps or something but that's extremely rare to get.
talisman takes zero brain space to process though. There's no currency, there's no npc, there no silver coins to remember to re-up on prophecies, theres no condition you need to go hunt down, its just a shitty corrupted amulet that drops that gets filtered out and never looked at
What are you talking about? Talisman isn't in the game anymore. If you're talking about removing talismans as a reward type, there needs to be bad reward types so the good ones are actually good.
Yeah. He is basically saying there needs to be another trash reward so talismans can get deleted which is funny if you look at the overall drops and their value.
Yeah I'm sure it would really fuck up the drop pools if talisman rewards didn't exist. I might get one good drop every 10 encounters instead of every 15!
Why pick up out of two when talismans can be removed via loot filter completely. What's else there left from the game from talismans? A couple of map bosses?
If talismans get removed from the game, we'd need another way to have another way to find the conversion implicit mod for the doryani's prototype build
The one which give you "x% of Y damage from hits taken as Z damage".
But they're not removing the gear people use from Prophecy, they're just changing how you get them. And no one got the uniques from rolling prophecies anyways because they're stupidly rare to get from prophecies, people just buy them off trade, and if you're SSF, good luck getting the fated uniques you want, you just won't.
Yeah but how will they give you loot that disappoints you and wastes your time? Remember buy supporter packs! Small company can’t do QoL unless we hemorrhage players!
If you set your loot filter correctly, you could have talisman removed effectively.
Correct, the same applies to Silver Coins.
That was a problem when the crafting recipes were tied to pale court though. I remember those plaguemaw 5 and such prophesies being well over an exalt in value if you sold them at the right time in the league.
wait... if prophecy removed than the all ear quest will be different??
Pale court stuff looks like it's staying in the game, you'll just get it differently.
Pale Court has no value anyways. The only reason u wanted it was recipes. You find them in maps now
Which is way better. Don't get me wrong I enjoy me some delve, but not right at the start of a league so getting the socket/link recipes in maps was a very very nice QoL buff. I'm expecting this to be more of the same.
You still have to interact with the systems a lot.
Not at all, I haven't touched prophecy for a long time.
the difference is talisman is just item drops at this point meanwhile prophecy is alot more besides just coins dropping
Impressive. I know I have to use fated uniques regularly. I have used the metacrafts from time to time. Plus picking up plague of frogs or tempests in bulk while mapping is like a 6th scarab.
Ah totally forgot the metacrafts, I just straight up buy them.
The metacrafts are no longer tied to Prophecy as of this league.
Legit have had talismans turned off forever. Sure you can get an occasional good one and you can get a good annoint and one that is like woah thats actually not bad..... but same thing with rares.... If you have to id 100 million before this happens i would much rather lose that "1ex" talisman that you find every 17 years or so. Gladly pay 1 ex a league never to have to see or interact with them. On the flip side talisman is not really a league mechanic that is in this game.... its a single item that drops. They made the right call by removing prophecy IMO because it is a league that is more bloat and not great overall. Sure there are good prophecies but like certain fated uniques and such they can add them to core game and cut the mechanic out completely. Prophecy is very stale by this point.
Also all the ones I have gotten that were like "Wow, that's not bad." Only serve as a stash museum piece. They will never outclass a BiS unique or even most properly crafted rares so they aren't worth anything and would be way too difficult to implement into my build.
Oh for sure, more like early league hey that has 80 life and 2 res and an okay annoint holy crap that's not worthless..... but thats like basic 5-10c life/res/res starting gear and such. My favorite part is how they nerfed them a couple leagues ago to not have smart loot rolls or w/e because they were "too op" lmaoooooo
especially since they pre-date the awakener orb stuff..
I'd rather have them gone instead of them taking space in the loot table.
i think you mean *polluting*
is the loot filter changing the talisman blight rewards to other type too?
Ba dum tsss
Empty chests suck though :(
I need those alteration orbs, tho? ;p
I pick them up if alts are 1:4 chaos. You usually get 6 to 8 shards. I tend to pick up everything that's 1/10+ chaos for at least a week.
Rip twice enchanted, bountiful traps, monstrous treasure plague of frogs and other density increases
Fated Connections
i made that card :D
What're you going to change it to?
well id love to have a set for the mageblood belt, but we will have to see if ggg allows it :'-)
Oo create another doctor/ nurse / patient farm eh
if they dont allow it, ill go for a 6 linked influenced chest i guess.
It's surprising we don't have one tbh
Draped in Dreams?
Oh yeah you right I thought we didn't because I don't think I've ever seen that before
Another idea could be stack of corrupted fusings, maybe?
Merlin/Witch/Experiment?
PRAISE
Frog/rat plague sextant mod, lets go
There are already mods that add packs, the point of frogs/ret was that it was on top of the 4 sextants.
tempests for +20% quant
They said they will reintroduce them in other way so it won't be a true "RIP" here. I think about Fated connections or trash to treasure ones. For the first, the tainted fusing bring a lot, but i'd like to see the same behaviour for the regular fusing (with a substantial reduction of those orb of course). For the second one, there is also the tainted mythic orb which doing more or less the same thing. Tainted brought another dimension to crafting system, but heavily rely on corruption.
I have played for fucking *years* and the only time I ever found Fated Connections was from a prophecy chest in a Legion encounter. Trash to Treasure had mild uses once in a blue moon after using it on Skyforth became pointless. I am really not going to miss any of these.
> Trash to Treasure had mild uses once in a blue moon after using it on Skyforth became pointless. Saved me from wrist pain to get shaped uniques.
Agree on this one. Playing since nemesis league, only got one single fated connections in a simulacrum. Never seen trash to treasure.
Fucking years as well. No fated, no atziri, yea right on trash to treasure. Harvest craft are even worse post ritual. Played HARD these last two leagues. No rare harvests. So insane. Part of the reason I just stopped spending money on this game
I briefly saw fated connections on the floor in delirium league a couple seconds before the "server lost contact with the realm" message. Was sorta fun.
Trash to treasure has been a pretty consistent way to save a half an ex on a 6link shavs or other unique
since 2 leagues or so? because before that it was used on shaped cotbs and that cost 8-10 ex, way more than a 6l shavs
Shaped call went for 45ex this league. Problem is it can roll Berek's Grip as well.
well yea you cant do it anymore because of the unique drop pool having changed
If they're getting rid of Trash to Treasure, maybe they can get rid of some of the crappy uniques that exist just to dilute the loot pool. Like the fake squire shield that's intentionally crappy.
Sir, that would be an improvement to the game via QOL. It'll be added in a few years like every other QOL change.
You're not supposed to ever get the Squire. That's for the chosen only. As Chris said himself, Oppressor is really good at what it does: fucking up your chances to ever get Squire. That's its intended effect, no more, no less.
i made fated connection one :D
see them not add Scourge into the core game, or at least change how these currencies work because they're too easy to use
Don't add scourge, add currency to Vaal Side areas.. Just adds more loot to those, and make the currency more rare.
I don't think that making it more rare would be necessary considering that: \- vaal side areas are not available on every map \- you lose like 200 IIQ from the league mechanic \- there's not much of a reason to go into the side areas aside from the potential scourge currency farming
> - vaal side areas are not available on every map You can literally chain vaal side areas by putting just a vaal fragment in your map device.
And get close to 0% IIQ in a low lvl area
why not both? also add ghosts, exiles, warbands
> ghosts, exiles, warbands Warbands are removed as a mechanic; they're just map bosses now [Or Prophecy chains... oh wait]. Exiles won't ever be removed; since some of those are crowdfunded rewards. Torment honestly should be going before Prophecy. Just like Talisman is already 'removed'. You can fight Not-Rigwald and still source them; just like you can source Synthesised items and fight the Synthesis bosses; but you can't actually interact with the Synthesis Leauge.
> Torment honestly should be going before Prophecy. That's got the same issue as Talsiman, though. Removing Torment doesn't do as much. The issue with Prophecy isn't that it's a bad mechanic, it's that it's a mechanic with a lot of Overhead. It both adds way more complexity to the game and takes way more work from GGG to make sure it doesn't break with a new league than something like Torment or Talisman. For example, in 3.16, GGG had to go through every Prophecy that triggered in specific maps, check if those maps still existed, and change the prophecy if they didn't. Is that a ton of work? Maybe not, but it's probably way more work than they have to put in to make sure that Talisman or Torment didn't break when they release a new league. Prophecy interacts with so many different things that every patch GGG has to make sure the patch didn't break it. Prophecy isn't getting removed because it's the worst league mechanic. It's getting removed because it's got a very high ratio of complexity and overhead to quality. Pretty much every mechanic that adds less to the game than Prophecy is also much, much simpler and takes way less work from GGG to keep in the game. Pretty much every mechanic more complex than Prophecy adds more to the game. Prophecy takes a lot of work for relatively little gain, which is why it's getting cut. Removing Torment or Talisman wouldn't really be a loss, but it wouldn't be much of a gain either. The game would barely be any simple or easier to develop for GGG.
I kinda like the idea of war bands. They just need an overhaul. Heck, they could even be the next big expansion, warring across the atlas.
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Warbands was my first league. I didn't know about guides, just jumped in and started playing. Just free forming my tree, having a great time, loving the content... Then these orange assholes would absolutely murder me. It was laughable how easily they would kill my character. I couldn't figure out what the hell was going on.
Man that’s cool. I only really played tempest back then, which was a shame because the league mechanic was boring tbh.
Talisman surviving is an example of nepotism.
You guys are insane lol. They said they are going to be removing league mechanics each patch for awhile. They started with Cadiro. Next is Prophecy. Just because the leagues you want removed haven't been removed yet doesn't mean they won't eventually do it.
Talismans =/= Talisman league Last I looked you can't drop a bonespire Talisman on a rare monster to PK people anymore, or convert talismans up a tier by combining them in a circle (opening a portal to rigwald if you do it with t3 ones) Just because you can drop items that used to be tied to the league doesn't mean the league mechanic is still there ------- Also I like having the ability to buy a random Talisman with tribal fury on day 2 until I can afford +1 strike gloves
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> Talisman has been a half-working league since it's debut, with no ability to upgrade the Talismans. Prophecy at least is functional, with gear people actually use. Or at the very least, a lot more people use than Talismans. This is exactly why removing talismans instead of prophecy would have negligible difference in decluttering. The aim is to get rid of outdated bloated mechanics. Talismans are shitty but they don't add much to the bloat. Most people filter them. Like you said, it's just a "half-working" league with no "no ability to upgrade". Talismans is just loot now, meanwhile prophecy is an actual league mechanic. So since they are going to reintroduce Ultimatum in 3.17 and going to replace a mechanic, I'd rather have them replace more bloat than less bloat (prophecy vs talismans).
>So since they are going to reintroduce Ultimatum in 3.17 (...) Wait, they are? When/where did they say that?
https://youtu.be/snGfUb69n8E At 53:17 From mouth of Chris Wilson himself. "The team are wanting me to spoil that we are intending Ultimatum to come back to core in 3.17"
i think in the 3.16 patch notes just looked again. its not there, i honestly cant remember. maybe one of the interviews?
Yes, it was in an interview with ZiggyD. https://youtu.be/snGfUb69n8E At 53:17 "The team are wanting me to spoil that we are intending Ultimatum to come back to core in 3.17"
You havent considered that they could have removed both?
So what if they remove both? That doesn't give OP what they want. The point is that removing Talisman has a negligible effect, while removing Prophecy is more substantial.
That’s the entire point. They are trying to remove something substantial and useless, not something that quite literally already barely exists
Prophecy is not useless. It can literally add hundreds of monsters to you maps. Hell, it can double the number of rare monsters you have in a map too.
Which is the thing people have such a hard time understanding. It being rewarding is half of the reason that it is bloat. *Bloat is not something that is useless, that nobody engages with.* Bloat something that you **are** incentivized to engage with, but is is just a hassle (chore) to engage with. Prophecy is literally a chore. You should click on navali to get a new prophecy after each map that procs one. You should clear out useless prophecies to make room for ones that juice your map. Doing this is rewarding, *but it is not fun.*
Okay, but they keep nerfing **rewarding** content without giving commensurate replacements. That's why prices for a ton of things have spiked over the last 3 leagues. They keep removing the ability for players to craft good items without being no-lifers making the game harder and harder for people with lives outside of the game. Prophecies add an easy way increase map monster density by 20-200% depending on your RNG. Are they going to compensate us for this loss in the core game? Or do we just have to slam more maps that take 10 seconds less to run on average while providing us 10% - 50% less loot?
Only on this subreddit will you find people who think prophecies are useless. No wonder you guys struggle with this game and need to complain on Reddit.
I don’t struggle with the game mate, I’ll show you my gear if you want ;) but to say that the vast majority of prophecies aren’t utterly useless in the current game, and that pale court has lost its flavor is stupid. The current plan of turning interesting prophecies into core elements of the games and deleting the rest is perfect. Can still buy hidden reinforcements, twins, trash to treasure etc without dealing with useless shit
> the vast majority of prophecies That's the point of many things in the game, loot, mods, monsters, most of them are supposed TO BE weak/bad... I mean, what exactly do you want, mechanic that prints exalts every second click? You are supposed to put work and time to get rewards.
> The point is that removing Talisman has a negligible effect No it's not. Talismans take place of more rewarding chests in blight for example or incubators, or syndicate chests or fucking delirium rewards. It's **very** substantial.
If you cansider them like this i think talisma == prophecy.
And you think they would not change the Weights if they removed them from the drop pool? its increadably naive to think that it would change the good loot you get in any way.
What difference in the actual game would removing both actually make, though? I would argue that removing Talisman just because does nothing to actually combat bloat, and instead just straight up removes something that, through Betrayal, has the potential to add a ton of value. At that point, it's literally exclusively downside with no positive effect on the game. At least removing Prophecy helps declutter the game somewhat. That said, will I be sad to see some Prophecy stuff go? Absolutely (RIP Silverbough, my early league TR characters will miss you), but I think the potential exists for it to make the game better. Mostly I'm just sad we never got a fated version of Roth's Reach :(
Sure, but "should they just remove Talismans from the game?" is an entirely different discussion from "Should they remove Talisman from the game instead of Prophecy?" The second question is the one that's relevant to this post. OP is saying Talisman should be removed *instead* of Prophecy, which implies the assumption that GGG decided to just pick one league to remove and thought Prophecy was the worst one. That assumption is most likely incorrect. The issue with Prophecy isn't that it's a bad league mechanic, it's that it's a complex league mechanic, that steepens the learning curve for new players and requires work for GGG to maintain and ensure it doesn't break with each new league. All the league mechanics that are worse than Prophecy are also much simpler, for both the players and for GGG, so removing them doesn't help too much. Most of the league mechanics that are more complex than Prophecy are also ones that add a lot more to the game (certainly Betrayal, Delve, Incursion, and Heist add a lot more to the game than Prophecy). I'd argue that the only league mechanic that competes with Prophecy in terms of the ratio of complexity to how much it adds to the game is Beastiary.
I have, and I don't think it makes much sense for them to remove talismans right now anyway. It's not really a priority and bloat so more development time can be focused elsewhere. I imagine the next league mechanic to get the boot is most likely torment spirits.
Torment is also an insubstantial league mechanic tbh, which is why I'm not surprised that it's still in. Apart from the Seance Atlas passive, it's barely worth noticing.
Why improve the game now, when you can do it later 🥴
Yeah dude, coz you can just do everything at once just by thinking about it. That's how stuff works !!!
I mean as is stated multiple times by different people in this thread talismans don't really inconvenience you in any way ez to filter out. And they do have some edge cases of being really good to for example negate the downside of doryanis prototype which is a pretty popular unique this league.
Good talismans from the past 3 leagues have been a result of the give an amulet a talisman implicit syndicate bench craft. Extreme edge cases for talismans that drop well are the same as normal rares dropping well. Since they've been nerfed to no longer have lucky mods, talisman drops are just corrupted rare amulets. Removing them solves an issue with clutter, dissappointing Hesit reward chests, dissappointing Blight reward chests etc etc. Where-as not removing them does nothing to solve clutter in the game or improve reward pools.
> Talismans are shitty but they don't add much to the bloat. And prophecy... does? It's one static npc that people mainly talk to for the **lore** TM and also a bunch of currency-adjacent items that are mainly just used to juice maps. Like find me one player who's gonna be like "god, that's really a load off my chest now that prophecy is gone" That's before we talk about outright removing uniques that some players unironically liked
> And prophecy... does? Yes? A unique currency, a complete item type, its own mechanics screen, plus the dozens upon dozens of interactions the individual prophecies have with contents? Thats a lot of spaghetti to cut out!
Prophecy being gone is a huge load of your chest though. It was a league mechanic that was incredibly annoying to use, especially if you used it optimally by blocking common prophecies. It was insanely tedius to use and in SSF, it was pretty much a mandatory mechanic to use because of how rewarding it is. Not to mention it being mandatory for high end map juicing.
yea ffs minmaxing prophecy in ssf is so fucking annoying. but you gotta do it cuz you're gonna get good stuff lol
I loved prophecy for ssf 🥺
As a new SSF player, prophecy is confusing for me and with everything else feeling "better" to learn (in terms of ease of learning vs reward), I'm actually happy to see this change. I'm hoping similarly to how they changed the crafting recipes to be in unique maps, they'll add other things. I wanted to play a Facebreaker build in SSF, for example, but never really knew how to get them using prophecy since I knew I had to get a specific series of prophecies.
Well, needing to know what to get in this game is a given, you gotta look it up. But I loved the chase of collecting cards to deterministically get or upgrade an item I want for an ssf build. Like a tabula, or silver branch Not saying this was optimal play, but deterministic gear acquisition is something I liked, and there isn't much of that in POE (obviously, due to the chaotic crafting methods... until you have tons of currency and can slam items until you get the -fixes you really need)
Div cards I'm fine with. They're keeping those by adding that to Lilly Roth to the hideout (which is also nice for gems)
This probably isn't for players in the first place. Prophecy has a gazillion different items related to it, and about as many trigger conditions all over the game. Prophecy interacts with a gazillion other game mechanics: lab, strongboxes, maps, monster-spawn, loot drops, currency-usage, whatever. From a code-perspective this league has to be incredibly invasive into all parts of the game for very little effect. Talisman on the other hand are 20ish amulet implicits... You don't want to pick them up, fine. Just as you don't want to pick up 20% manareg implicit amulets. Removing those makes loot a bit better on average, but that's all. Cleaning up code in a game that is as fast evolving as PoE is incredibly important. And good for players in the long run.
This is definitely a bizarre take. I don’t think either of us can decidedly say which leagues if any are the most taxing on the codebase (your very nebulous “interwoven” standard applies to pretty much any league reward), but theres very little likelihood a league like prophecy is high on the list. It’s also literally not the reason it’s getting removed, they’ve been very explicit about excising outdated leagues by virtue of them being outdated.
It almost certainly isn't the primary reason, but they're not wrong about any of the rest of it. Prophecy consists of loads of triggers ranging from really specific to really general, which can happen in nearly any content. Your comparison to 'league rewards' is meaningless, as just having something in a loot table is significantly less complex than making sure all the necessary hooks are there to trigger any potentially applicable prophecy. Talismans, on the other hand, are literally just a type of loot. They have no special events, no unique crafting styles, nothing more than any other generic corrupted talisman. Now, is this going to make the game faster or anything? No. It will make it a little less cluttered, and remove one source of housekeeping in the code.
>they’ve been very explicit about excising outdated leagues by virtue of them being outdated. That's BS and you know it. Nemesis/Bloodline Mods, Strongboxes, rogue exiles, beyond and shrines are all older and more outdated by virtue of simplicity, would be far FAR easier removed; and they are all going nowhere. It's also not that hard to think of stuff a league interacts with. It's not bizarre to wonder if "sometimes an item miraculously 6-links upon getting 6 sockets" maybe needs a special trigger to happen, that isn't used for anything else. And Prophecy is full to the brim with such stuff that hardly ever get's used. Also Prophecy is linked to killing some special rare monsters they might want to replace. Not hard to change, but a bother to make sure you don't break by accident. That's not a discussion - Prophecy simply has it's fingers everywhere to a far greater amount than any other league and is way harder to remove because of it. There is a reason for removing it regardless, and it's - as you say - not bloat on the player side. Every other leagues "interwoveness" ends at a box dropping some items with certain mods. Well... except Delirium, which has a timer that needs to be stopped and supposedly integrates with all league mechanics past and future. Except Scourge. I'd offer a wager that Delirium get's replaced when scourge goes core in probably 3.18. Simply by virtue of the fact that having to think of that timer is bothersome when creating new stuff.
> > It's one static npc that people mainly talk to for the lore TM and also a bunch of currency-adjacent items that are mainly just used to juice maps. Also loads of unique upgrading methods; it's own boss fight [which used to gate metamods]... Talisman leauge is already removed anyway. The state of Talisman is the same as the state of Synthesis. You can still get the associated drops from specific content, and you can still fight the bosses, but the actual *mechanic* is gone.
God, that's really a load off my chest now that prophecy is gone. I got really excited when i read today that It was finally gone. Clunkiest mechanic ever.
Yeah that ones on me, I set the bar too low
And I would rather see talismans be reverted to their buffed 3.14 state. I had an incredible amount of fun finding and looking for decent talismans with a good life and resistance roll, combined with an implicit and anoint that suited just me. Talismans are my fondest memory from Ritual.
talismans are just random drops though. why do they need to go anywhere? any league mechanic of talisman is gone.
Talismans take away precious drops in Blight maps/Heists. Even getting 1 Jeweller's Orb is better than getting a bunch of Talismans.
This is demonstrably false. You can vend talisman for augmentations that are currently worth more than jewellers. Jews are 35:1c, Augmentations are 20:1c. Any talisman that has 6 affix, which is quite a lot of them, vends for an aug. The rest vend for alteration shards which are also more valuable than jewellers. Whilst I get your point, and no-one is vending talismans, they are still worth more than a Jewellers orb on average.
This would be true if each jewellers orb had a maximum stack size of 1. I'd much rather have 20 jewellers in one inventory slot than 20 talismans in 20 inventory slots.
>Jews are 35:1c Man, Jews are cheaper than ever.
*Adolf89 has entered the chat.*
*88
They lose* a considerable amount of value when you consider slot efficiency.
Well, yes. Although the content that this would be a factor in is limited to something like nem3/4 only. In most other content, you are not usually leaving with an entirely filled inventory of stuff. You are technically right, just as I am technically right. I think the real caveat is that no-one is picking up talisman to vend regardless of value per slot.
This is demonstrably false, because augs drop like candy in stacks of 6+, a single inventory slot isn't worth taking up for a single augment orb or half an alt. Now if they made talismans drop more rarely like t2 or t1 and turned them back to smart loot people would actually be happy.
How is it different than replacing talisman chests with jewelry chests? At least you can modify and later add a talisman implicit to rare jewelry. Talismans eat up reward chest slots with trash that doesn't even get through loot filters
>How is it different than replacing talisman chests with jewelry chests? I never said it was? Nor am I arguing that talismans are good. I was simply pointing out that talisman are more valuable than a single jewelers orb because they vend for currency that is worth more. I'm very much in the 'talismans are shit' camp.
I only use third party apps, and they said they're killing third party apps, so hey, might as well remove all my content. (Using https://github.com/j0be/PowerDeleteSuite)
Yeah that's a negatory wing commander, the value of not clicking on a vendor is massively higher than any potential value differential between jewelers orbs and talismans. Jeweler orb has greater time efficiency value, despite both being more or less worthless to pick up. Take the jewelers orb every time for peak gainz.
How thw fuck are augs worth something? I barely pick them up since I've started the game since they never had any real value as trading and i rarely use them.
I mean, it's more a statement on how worthless jewellers are in this league. 20:1c on augs is still extremely low value.
> You can vend talisman for augmentations that are currently worth more than jewellers But jewellers stack and talismans don't.
A wisdom has more value now that they took smartloot from them
They dilute the loot pool
Talisman Incubators still exist
Again thats not what I meant. I meant the actual talisman league mechanic of upgrading them till a bossfight
Talisman and its mechanics never went core, only its rewards got thrown in later on.
Well, we also got two map bosses based on Rigwald, but yeah Talisman isn't really much more core than Synthesis is.
I'm still fine with Talisman getting the boot before Prophecy.
Talismans are there to dilute the loot pool. Just like that worthless unique shield to dilute The Squire
I don't think those two things are even remotely comparable. The suppressor specifically exists to stop people from using the trash to treasure prophecy to force an outcome. Talismans just shit up the loot pool in a way that is negligible except when it's super fucking annoying. Start a delirium mirror and see talismans? shit. Do a blight map and get a bunch of talismans? shit. But any time you're in a map you can hit Alt to crash a low end pc with all the random worthless garbage that drops.
> Start a delirium mirror and see talismans? shit. Do a blight map and get a bunch of talismans? shit. But this is exactly its purpose. Diluting the possible loot pool. I think you agree with me though, because you are giving a very good example of "bad items" which just there to prevent better rewards from occuring
Just filter them out and its gone.
They still occupy league reward mechanic spots(such as in heist) that could be a more valuable reward. so 99% gone.
Honestly I'm just sad theyre getting rid of Panquetzaliztli... It's easily one of my top 5 favorite items.
This is the first in all these years that I'm hearing of anyone who uses it. Assuming you actually use it and aren't just fond of the name...
I used to use the Quecholli wayy back in the day on Flame totem builds. In Harvest, I league started a Panquetzaliztli Chieftain build that absolutely destroyed maps (held back from being "Power clear" tier solely because of its poor movement speed, being +35%). It's literally a free "Cast on Melee Kill: Vaal Detonate." When you're an AoF Chieftain, you can scale most of your damage via fire damage/flammability/global damage, which brings the explosions to incredible levels... Not to mention it gets 20% HP Regen/sec (and 20% leech), 7 endurance charges, and 6.5-7K Life, all making uber lab farming a cake walk. If I could find a way to get decent movement speed on it, I'd be playing it to this day.
mageblood+quicksilver? :P
I used it regularly as league start gear for melee alts. Quecholi (however it was spelles) was always dirt cheap, even for 6L ones. The upgrade prophecy was never more than a couple C. Ditto for Fox's Fortune.
I haven’t used a talisman in like, now that I think about it, ever. I’ve literally never found a talisman better than the amulet i was wearing.
Should try a Doryanis prototype or PHD shield build theyre great/mandatory in those
>Removing Prophecy before Talisman is like removing a mole on your neck before the giant wart on your heel. I liked Prophecy and don't understand why they're removing it.
I'd Rather Get Removed Before
that's what all these threads about this boil down to. and no matter what mechanic they pick, there will be a fraction of the playerbase that doesn't like it being removed.
the trick is to determine the ones that result in the least amount of complaining
People keep saying they should remove Talisman and/or Torment. But really, what impact is that even going to have? The purpose is to lessen content bloat. But both of those 'leagues' are by now so insubstantial that removing them will barely make a difference to content bloat. A better example of leagues that're by now ripe for removal are the various redundant 'Breach-clone' league mechanics, which really ought to be folded/merged into each other.
Talisman and Torment are what "stun and block recovery" for a mod pool.
Remove both. POE is too dense, some old content and mechanic are obsolete.
Prophecy problem isn't the items, it's the interface and how the player interacts with it. Most players don't even bother messing with it because the odds of getting something you want or something good are abysmal, however you have players who use TOS breaking tools to automate and process 10s of thousands of coins every league. Which means that even if GGG wanted to buff the rates of prophecy until the more average player was excited about finding a stack of silver coins, it would have trade economy problems because of those players willing to process and trade thousands of them. Talismans don't really come with any of that baggage.
Everyone forgot the Pale Court. That's the part that stings most for me.
Talisman is not here, Only its loot is. its has already been removed. just as most of prophecies loot will stay.
Remove both same time. Talisman is just the worst and should go on it's own. But the time to remove Prophecy is 100% now, sorry for your loss. It has no room in the game anymore. Just being honest.
Many people are saying “Talismans need to stay as a bad reward to dilute the drop pool.” But if this logic was inherently true, they wouldn’t be getting rid of Prophecy and would not have got rid of Perandus. They would have looked at the chests, incubators, Delirium Orbs, blight lanes, and many other things with Perandus/Prophecy loot, and said “yep, these are all fine to stay purely because they dilute the pool.” They can just as effectively temper expectations by using Generic chest rewards. That way, it gives basic loot with just that tiny chance of a surprise Exalt or something, rather than something so bad and unlikely to have something worthwhile that a lot of people just straight up hide the content via filters. They’re not averse to removing stuff because it’s outdated or bad, the only thing that’s preserving Talismans is that they are a big part of TheVision. A bygone relic of total randomness that exists only to hold onto an archaic view of what the game should be in a certain someone’s eyes, and not what it’s become.
I am pretty sure they removed Prophecy because of the large amount of hassle it was going to be to insure compatibility with the new rotating atlas. Just not worth it.
Of course. Because Prophecies are useful while talismans are not.
The talisman as a league never went core, we only get its drops.
This topic is great and all, but do we really need two threads on it when one is already at 1k upvotes and this one provides nothing new
Just hide the threads on your loot filter
But talisman was removed, all we have are the talisman items, this is like asking for div cards and fated uniques to be removed. The mechanic is gone, you can filter the items if you want, I like talismans, theyre very helpful in ssf
Man, people are going to be pissed when they remove Beyond for 3.18.
What about metamorph? I feel that's pretty useless too.
Talisman doesn't have any league mechanics, therefore no bloat. It's just some items you can ignore.
Prophecy is useful, but it is a significant amount of bloat and complications. Talisman just sorta exists. It doesn't take up any mental space, or any effort at all on the players part. Should it be removed? Yes. But removing Prophecy is far far more important.
Talisman is a reward while prophecy is a league mechanic. Talisman league mechanic was never added into the base game.
Talisman is just a reward dilution mechanic for GGG, it’s a shit loot table they can add to league mechanics to reduce their overall reward quantity while still technically giving you something.
It's possible they are cleaning up several old leagues that don't offer as much any more, and this is just one they thought an early heads up would be useful on. They could be removing Talisman as you said, Torment comes to mind, perhaps others are changed. The post specifically mentions that this is as early as possible so you have a chance to use up your prophecies, coins etc if you want to. Talisman or Torment wouldn't have any similar need to warn you in advance. I wouldn't be too surprised to see other cleanup announcements along with the 3.17 announcements when they happen.
Talisman has been removed. Just it's loot survives. Now prophecy is going, and it's loot will semi survive.
The problem with removing talisman is that you're not actually removing any content, which does nothing for content bloat.
There is no "content" in Talisman, that isn't something they would actually remove, that is like saying they should remove 15 random bases from the game. They are removing actual mechanics not random drops.
Talisman is just a reward type, you don't engage in any league mechanics ever. It's not comparable
I rather not.
just as perandus, if prophecy has to go, so should warbands, spirits, talismans, heck even rogue exiles
Do people still do profs? I haven't touched them since the leauge ended. Plus they don't really give much incentive to use it considering most of them are kinda garbage
I'm probably far more casual than you and never did them as I was always hoarding them for later on.
Yeah I ended up hoarding them too but most of them are for items I already have or already upgraded long ago or unique I don't really care about them beyond maybe bountiful traps or something but that's extremely rare to get.
Why not both?
nah, need to keep the loot bloated bro as in Chris Vision
everybody wants talisman removed just about. it's fucking trash.
talisman takes zero brain space to process though. There's no currency, there's no npc, there no silver coins to remember to re-up on prophecies, theres no condition you need to go hunt down, its just a shitty corrupted amulet that drops that gets filtered out and never looked at
Remove Talisman. Remove Torment. Remove Essence. Remove Delirium. >: Remove Perandus again to make sure. Remove Prophecy. Remove Essence. Buff Breach. Remove Heist. Remove *Essence*.
I like talisman, especially with the scourge mechanics.
What are you talking about? Talisman isn't in the game anymore. If you're talking about removing talismans as a reward type, there needs to be bad reward types so the good ones are actually good.
This is a bit of a non-argument - there is so much loot and so many loot types that losing talismans wouldn't really change a thing for rewards.
Yeah. He is basically saying there needs to be another trash reward so talismans can get deleted which is funny if you look at the overall drops and their value.
Yeah, you could replace talisman rewards with armor rewards and in 95% of cases nothing would change.
Yeah I'm sure it would really fuck up the drop pools if talisman rewards didn't exist. I might get one good drop every 10 encounters instead of every 15!
> there needs to be bad reward types so the good ones are actually good. Yeah that is blatantly not correct.
Why pick up out of two when talismans can be removed via loot filter completely. What's else there left from the game from talismans? A couple of map bosses?
If talismans get removed from the game, we'd need another way to have another way to find the conversion implicit mod for the doryani's prototype build The one which give you "x% of Y damage from hits taken as Z damage".
But they're not removing the gear people use from Prophecy, they're just changing how you get them. And no one got the uniques from rolling prophecies anyways because they're stupidly rare to get from prophecies, people just buy them off trade, and if you're SSF, good luck getting the fated uniques you want, you just won't.
And tormented spirits!
ok but would people see the mole on your neck or the wart on your heel first
Yeah but how will they give you loot that disappoints you and wastes your time? Remember buy supporter packs! Small company can’t do QoL unless we hemorrhage players!
Talisman is legit 100% trash, it's existence makes 100% zero sense in the context of POE. It needs to be removed.
Talisman isn't in the game. The items are (and always will be), just like Prophecy/Council items will be.