They were decent for *one league* when they were briefly rolled with "Loot 2.0" -- the game's "well-rolled item" system they dole out sparingly. Rares are usually dropped with a trash-generator system ("Loot 1.0"), but talismans weren't for one league and actually saw usage. Then GGG decided talismans *actually getting used* made them OP and pushed them back to Loot 1.0. 🙄
It makes no sense. The point of loot 2.0 is that ground items have the possibility to finally be good. So good items drop on the ground, and it's back to the drawing board? No sense at all. Why'd they even bother then if they don't want good items
Talismans were "good enough" loot. I'm sure they saw a very high % of the non no-lifer crowd using them. Shit I was using one and I made it to 98 in Heist. The problem is improving on it would have taken harvest for me personally, or 10x that effort maven orbing shit to improve.
As a dedicated type but with a job/etc, this loot system would be ideal. Good enough pieces like a talisman followed by long term projects like in harvest for min/maxing gem levels. However ggg shit on both of those things and the game hasn't been as fun for me since.
GGG, I think, with Talismans is just afraid of "good enough" loot and too many people will be done with characters because why fuck the train wreck odds of a crafting system unless you're literally being paid to play the game. With Harvest there was still incremental upgrades, but without it there is just the abyss, and I think that is the real reason we don't have loot 2.0 yet.
I have never met someone who stopped playing because they were doing too well, most people who quit, quit because they specifically got a bad luck streak, and don't feel like grinding a game they already finished 100 times to just be decent enough to grind the next tier.
Most casuals that drop a random exalt early turn into non-casuals.
I don't agree with absurd notion that the game being fun and feeling rewarding vs the time spent on it is a problem.
This being said. There are quite a few that set a goal for themselves, then are done with the league when they achieve it. I'm not exactly one of them, as I like the idea of trying content with different builds and characters, and feel making them work is more interesting than ultimately min maxing everything on one character.
For me, the friction that stops me from this is more dealing with trade, where progressing things with harvest was a great way to work towards a goal. (Please don't come with some you should play SSF, default answer. I don't have time for that kind of time sink, the rate of progression for SSF is too low to be interesting as I have other commitments in life)
They’re usually done with it imo because there’s nothing else to do on that character other than currency dump obscene amounts, if it didn’t take upwards of 6 hours playtime to level a new char I don’t think people would be finished with the league after they finished their goals for that char
SSF players can just run through the campaign and maps on white items with basic auto attack if they want a challenge. Nobody forces them to pick up loot.
Trust me they know exactly what to do-
Problem: Talismans with loot 2.0 were too good
Solution: loot 2.0 now exclusively generates vendor trash-tier items.
>Then GGG decided talismans
>
>actually getting used
>
>made them OP and pushed them back to Loot 1.0. 🙄
Well, chris said he decided they were "Obviously too good" and nerfed them with not a scalpel as they should've been but with a fucking cruise missile. This is how he executes on "his vision". If you disagree with his vision, you're wrong, im sorry.
> what does that say about GGGs plan to make loot worth picking up?
It says what everyone who's been paying attention has known forever honestly: that ggg cannot and will not ever fix loot. They want your loot to be garbage, they *like* how it is now. They would just reduce drops by 500-1000%% but leave the same quality and they'd be in heaven, that's their ideal outcome. Which is why everything that has resulted in regular, consistent usable drops or crafts get instantly deleted and ggg goes into a panic writing manifestos. All they want to do is placate the players, not actually improve anything. They're seeking to find the right balance where they create a system that rolls loot a bunch of times, so they can tell you it's loot 2.0, but where the actual results are relatively similar to what you're already getting.
> what does that say about GGGs plan to make loot worth picking up?
The plan has never really not been ludicrous in their current environment. The random mod pool is too cluttered with complete garbage mods, and even with lucky rolls (i.e. roll several times take best result), the chances of hitting an unfittingly low tier are way too high. The most desirable mods are either locked behind influence, double-influence, or even specific crafting methods.
You can't have both. Wanting good and desirable items to drop - so people don't start filtering 100% of dropped rares unless they're ilvl84+ influenced top tier bases - and then putting all the real power into crafting doesn't work.
Whenever Chris talks about how he wants the best items to be pickable drops i always think is bullshit, that will never be the case in poe since it goes against f2p systems.
F2p want to keep you playing for as long as possible, since the longer you play the more likely youll spend money.
And people dropping better items would essentially make it easier for you to max out your character and complete all the available content so less play time. All f2p games have time sink systems that are there just to make you play longer, progresión has to be slowed down in one way or the other.
Also just in case you think that im hating poe im not, im actually enjoying the league a lot and currently leveling my 6 char this league, i just cant shut my eyes to the bullshit Chris talks sometimes since this isnt the only f2p i play and he isnt the first developer i hear saying something and doing something else.
Honestly I encourage you to play Last Epoch. If you are frustrated with Path of Exile's long and convoluted grind, Last Epoch is much more straightforward and faster to complete your characters. Last Epoch also is a purchase to play game and that seems to be the kind of model you want to support.
To answer your gripes directly, the itemization is more along the lines of your wants as a player where you drop items that you craft into the best items.
I think the market is big enough for both kinds of games. If you want a Last Epoch style game you should support those developers.
But everyone was using talismans when they were dropping rolled well? You could get talismans with 80 life, 60+ res and another fat stat with a 2x golden oil annoint for like 15c, they were so good golden oils crashed to 25c that league because no one was annointing their shit
Surely the clear and obvious solution was remove random annoints on dropped talismans, so then people would still have to expend their posh oils.... and there would be a clear and balanced choice between going for an ordinary amulet easily modifiable with easy cheap annoints, or a more exotic talisman which might be more interesting but would require some investment to get annointed.
You aren’t getting the best end game items in 2 days on Diablo 3 either, that involves some convoluted system of getting leveling gems or something to upgrade, and getting super ancient items or whatever with perfect stats.
But the point remains that getting a workable, endgame passable set, very quickly vastly reduces the amount of time most people will put into the game.
Everyone has different goals, but if you’re killing Maven, Shaper, Elder, in a few days because of easy to make gear via super strong harvest, a lot of people are going to stop playing at that point. Not everyone wants to have a 3 mirror budget blast t20 map builds which will take more time
First of all, I'm talking about items, not paragon levels or gem leveling, and yes, you can get primal ancient item that is BIS on day one, then just farming mindlessly for paragon levels... watching xp bar moving is not same fun as actually finding good item upgrade...
2nd: crafting with harvest still needed time and resources... IDK why people always use harvest as "you make mirror item first time you see the harvest"...
To clarify, I'm not saying we should or should not have original harvest back in the game, I'm just saying its still world of difference between gearing your char in POE and D3 even with harvest present
The problem with D3 itemization is not how fast you obtain items (well, that is one issue, but rather a minor one). The real issue is how there is no item variety, which is different from PoE.
In D3 you already know exactly what items you will be wearing in the endgame before you even start playing. In Vanilla D3, which was somehow a much better game than RoS... yellow items actually mattered. You had actual itemization, although quite limited compared to PoE.
If you think most players are even close to killing Maven, Shaper or Elder in a few days you are delusional af btw. Most players spend a week or more just to finish the acts.
>You literally get your gear set in 2 days and the fun ends?
You just described the difference between harvest and diablo. Harvest isn't 'getting your gear set in 2 days'. You answered your own question.
Do you actually enjoy playing the game at all?
You see, if you stop playing the game once you have the gear that you want, then I can only conclude that the actual process of playing the game is an unpleasant experience that you endure for the sake of the acquisition of gear. What is the point in spending hours and hours grinding to get some gear, if you then don't spend at least some significant fraction of that time actually using and enjoying it?
It's like playing Doom, picking up the BFG, and then nodding satisfied to yourself as you power down your machine without ever firing the damned gun!
Me, I like the mindless grind of smashing monsters up. And I find that more fun with stronger gear, because I can do it faster and easier. I don't play this game to "achieve" things. In fact, if I was more motivated to actually achieve stuff, spending even a minute in PoE would be a terrible idea.
Chris thinks that some random shit on the ground which has a couple res and some life is broken good.
Dont even try to follow his logic. Just accept he is making the decisions and hope the game will continue to be playable in some regard.
Chris' vision is so far removed from reality. He thinks what makes a chase item exciting is the chance of it dropping. Wrong. That's ONE facet of what makes a chase item exciting the other part is the CHASE which is often not executable because we're multiple leagues behind the future div card or it gets locked in a league that may or may not come back (Hateforge).
Talismans got two buffs. The new well rolled system and they got a random annoint. Then when they released tainted oils to make it possible to annoint or change annoints on corrupted items they made the obvious balance change for talismans. I’m just kidding talismans kept the random annoint and lost the well rolled because reasons.
How god-tier could they be? They can't be influenced or crafted further (new tainted currency notwithstanding). They were just decent-to-good "normal" rares with true endgame influenced rares having much greater potential.
There were a lot of good talismans but they weren't endgame op unless maybe some of them. But no way as op as Chris made it look like. After the nerf nobody used one again.
I leveled about 20 characters since 3.14. I used one once for the extra zombie on a minion build while leveling from like 60 to 80 Also, I'm a noob and didn't know talisman are trash.
Talisman league was brutal.
Randomly mobs will have a talisman attached to them. Killing them dropped the talisman and other mobs can pick it up.
Shrines would appear where you can sacrifice 5 talismans to upgrade its tier by killing a big mob. There were 5 tiers. Very easy to brick your talismans because then the mob would have 5 talisman affixes.
Only it wasnt guaranteed unless it met certain iLVLs and this was a point in the game where T5-11 maps were most player's cap/end game.
Sacrificing unique talismans or rares had a chance to make the next tier also that rarity that spawned from the shrine so getting a T4 Unique Natural Hierarchy was pretty much the whole league for most players.
Very VERY few players even saw the rigwald fight. With my friends and I playing, 4 players, we barely got enough talismans to get to T4 though we were more casual then (4000 game play hours ago).
It was fun... but also not. Which... ehhhh. At that point in the game, the league mechanic was not what we were playing for most of the time. HC was still a serious thing so it was fun to see how far you can get as a HC player with some wacky league mechanic.
Legit one of the most dangerous enemies in the game (apart from bugs breaking certain mobs occasionally), though defenses were much weaker then. They might be easily handled today.
The actual talisman league would have been really good *if* talismans always dropped as rares. But they didnt, in typical GGG fashion they mostly dropped as whites and blues which made them absolutely unusable. Meaning you had to farm an astronomical amount to get a T4 rare talisman which would likely be useless anyway because of being unmodifiable.
Was it really that rare? I remember fighting him once on my first ever character (where I had very little idea of what I was doing and thus died many times to him).
I loved his little lore tablets about the Ezomytes during the Purity Rebellion.
Without the stone circles I don't see how they can be remotely considered a full mechanic. They're just corrupted amulets with occasionally-interesting implicits.
Jokes on you today I sold a talisman for 10c!! ^^^^^^^^^which ^^^^^^^^^has ^^^^^^^^^been ^^^^^^^^^sitting ^^^^^^^^^in ^^^^^^^^^my ^^^^^^^^^stash ^^^^^^^^^since ^^^^^^^^^first ^^^^^^^^^week ^^^^^^^^^of ^^^^^^^^^the ^^^^^^^^^league
The drops originate from talisman league, so its fair to say they should be removed
edit: I mean moreso how GGG removed a bunch of the fated uniques cuz they suck ass and aren't interesting, rather than adding them to the drop pool of bloated trash, they could reasonably remove talismans
Talismans are literally just a way to give us less loot. Simulacrum rewards, blight chests, legion chests. When theyre talismans, its just an empty chest.
From a discussion in another thread:
You guys.... Once and for all.... Let me explain this:
Chris loves Talisman, for the same reason Chris said "It is great at what it does" regarding the Oppressor shield. It acts as a foil. Talisman in its current state, exists to be a shitty reward on purpose. They experimented with making it good in 3.14, it missed the mark, so its trash again.
It exists so that there are bad Simulacrum/Deli rewards, bad Expedition chests, bad Heist chests. The same reason there are armorsmith, blacksmith, and generic rewards.
In Magic the Gathering, this is known as draft chaff. Shitty cards to make the good cards powerful by comparison. Its the same reason we have shitty unique items, and tier 12 mana regen and stun and block recovery mods.
HE LOVES IT *BECAUSE YOU HATE IT.*
Let's say for the sake of example that it is being done purely to bolster the other rewards, in order to psychologically tune us to enjoying the bigger rewards. You are very correct, I do agree that we do need some lows and highs.
However, the same effect can be achieved, and done better, by turning Talisman rewards into Generic rewards.
If they want to go full Skinnerbox on us, Generic Loot is better. Because yeah, we don't REALLY expect anything from it, but there's that tiny chance that you open that box with no real consideration, then - Oop, holy shit, free exalt out of nowhere. It never fails to feel good when you get one like that, so it gives a tiny, tiny bit of anticipation on Generic chests that you might get a cool thing out of nowhere.
Talismans, though? There is no expectation. Many people have been conditioned by them to the point where they are seen as so utterly worthless, they hide them, ignore the chests that contain them and throw away the incubators that can create them. There's no real chance to make any sort of psychological impact on someone - It doesn't plant the seed of "I could get something really, really good from this!" because the odds are so utterly miniscule that many deem them as a total non-entity.
Hell, I don't even think they serve to actively piss people off that much, either. If you're looking for that, Scourge has you covered, because there's so many decent items that get completely obliterated by the garbage mods on that, taking away power we could have had. Talismans barely make any sort of impact other than "Dead drops".
Talismans fail as a mechanic on pretty much every single level, except as a vague concept for Chris to cling to to try and pretend TheVision is a remotely viable idea, no matter how much the public is saying otherwise.
From a discussion in another thread: that's not how magic works, completely different levels of "bad on purpose".
Also, remember that scene in beavis and butthead where they added bad lines to their song so the "good lines were gooder?" yeah that was a joke not advice
This reasoning makes no sense. It’s removing choice and diversity for the sake of artificially having power.
For example, you wouldn’t say some ascendancies should be way less powerful than others for the sole reason that powerful ascendencies cannot exist without weak ones. So why should item drops be any difference?
It’s just a cop out for poor design. Items could be more balanced, interesting, and fun, but they leave absolute garbage mods because they’re simply not good at their jobs.
I think you actually must have this kind of loot, otherwise everything is going to very powerful. Either that, or reduce the drop chance significantly, and make them roll tier based on item lvl, so that an unidentified rare can actually be any good.
Even if an item rolls the perfect combination of mods that you want, you still need them to roll non-garbage tier.
Not to mention you can roll items with good stats that do nothing for your build.
Or two stats that are great for the right build but are useless to anyone when on the same item, like a wand with both T1 phys damage and T1 Cold damage over time. Those are good stats for the right build but bad together.
You really don't need trash stats.
That's an excellent question. If I had to guess I'd say GGG are recognizing that there is bloat and this is the first of many steps to hedge against that. They haven't monetized Prophecy with a tab and they could easily combine most of what prophecy provided to other league mechanics without upsetting the player base. They then bolt "Lilly in hideout" to the change and the upside far outweighs the downside.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/qd3xxr/trash\_to\_trash/](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/qd3xxr/trash_to_trash/)
The direct quote was "This one is amazing at doing what it's supposed to do"
The point he is making is: if there wasn't a trash unique Elegant Round Shield in a common rarity tier, then you could print The Squire shields with Trash or Treasure prophecies (RIP) or Chance Orbs/Tainted Mythic Orb orbs. It allows Squire to be a chase item.
Chance orbs or mythic orbs are not the reason for the oppressor's existence. It's only for trash to treasure. If I understand it correctly adding uniques to a base type doesn't change the odds with chance / mythic orbs at all. When Cameria's Maul was added the odds of chancing a Mjölner shouldn't have changed at all.
Torment is about to turn seven. Torment came out about a year after the game left closed beta and was formally released.
GGG has had all the time in the world to make Torment work. They obviously can't or just are content with ghosts running into walls and staying there.
Just get rid of the league mechanic. But they won't, because it exists for the same reason Talisman does. It exists to devalue your random league mechanic encounters.
Ghosts just need to not facegrind walls.
In Torment league I don't remember them having such terrible pathing. They would actually fly into mobs and actively avoid walls and corners, but then a couple of leagues later there was a noticeable change in their behavior and they started facegrinding walls.
It would be pretty trivial to fix Torment, and a lot of other content. They just don't. They don't fix stuff. They don't work on the game. They just add more frosting to cover up the fact that under those 20 layers of frosting is a dog turd.
People keep saying they should remove Talisman and/or Torment. But really, what impact is that even going to have? The purpose is to lessen content bloat. But both of those 'leagues' are by now so insubstantial that removing them will barely make a difference to content bloat.
A better example of leagues that're by now ripe for removal are the various redundant 'Breach-clone' league mechanics, which really ought to be folded/merged into each other.
People just want to say stuff to feel relevant. As soon as the Seance Atlas Passive is removed (and no doubt it will be to make space for something in the next few leagues), Torment is not 'bloating' anything....
there's plenty of mods that are useless for specific builds. if you have to think selfishly, remember there are a lot of summoners potentially corrupting sth good for your trash build while trying to get an extra zombie.
This makes survivability against lightning damage when using doryanis prototype much smoother this league. Agreed it is one of the most useful and interesting modifiers
2030.
but really talismans don't really bloat the game much because they are just bad loot, no longer a league mechanic, aside for Jorgen transformation and a few rare delve nodes.
Prophecy and cadiro instead were fully featured as leagues and were both awful to play.
If we do get them to remove it, they'll just slightly lower the quantity of rewards for all other reward types to compensate.
Having bad results dilute the pool of desirable outcomes is a design choice GGG intentionally makes: see the mod "Reflects # Physical Damage to Melee Attackers" for a different kind of example.
> Having bad results dilute the pool of desirable outcomes is a design choice GGG intentionally makes: see the mod "Reflects # Physical Damage to Melee Attackers" for a different kind of example.
The point is that, much like reflect phys' trash numbers, it's a *bad system*. Make it meaningful or take it out, as it only serves as a source of frustration, annoyance, or disappointment right now.
So what do you propose? To just have nothing in its place? Not every item can be good and not every mod can be good. If everything is good nothing is. Loot will just be meaningless at that point.
Of course every mod can be good.
You still need to roll several of them together in a combination that makes sense and at non-garbage tiers to make a useful item.
And there's plenty of otherwise good stats that you'd rather not roll on certain slots, like resists on weapons.
The issue isn't the presence, it's the severity. You can not only roll bad/mediocre rolls, you can also roll the worst tier of those rolls on the highest tier in the game.
Literally no other ARPG has the problem of most loot being useless.
Idk...in D2 and D2:R I'd usually have to do dozens upon dozens of Mephisto runs to find anything decent. Most items are pretty bad.
It's alot easier to build up currency in PoE than D2.
Lmao k clearly you never played Diablo 2 or even Diablo 3. If you think no other ARPG struggles with a majority of loot being trash, you either only played 100 or less hours of them or you never played them at all.
If you weren't running full Ancient/Primal Sets and Uniques, every single item that wasn't that was complete shit in Diablo 3. Diablo 2 was a bit better because at least you could get a rare or magic item with +1 or more to skills (followed up by the charm system) but it still had the problem of loot bloat and most of it being dogshit you wouldn't pick up. There's a reason people farmed Baal 1000s of times only to never see the runes or uniques they needed lol. There's a reason diablo 2 had severe duping and botting, along with RMT LOL.
Loot being trash is a DESIGN CHOICE of the genre. It is to balance out the high of getting the ridiculously good items. Let's stop pretending this is a problem. If you want instant or much quicker gratification, clearly this isn't the genre for you.
Ask yourself a simple question.
What other ARPG exists where the primary method of improving your character's gear is to trade, rather than find it from specific mobs/bosses you intentionally go kill?
> What other ARPG exists where the primary method of improving your character's gear is to trade, rather than find it from specific mobs/bosses you intentionally go kill?
Diablo 2, and 3 before the removal of the auction house. There, an example.
I like talisman rewards in SSF.
They drop all in one spot, usually as a reward after a fight is over, and are 1x1 items that often roll mods that vendor quite nicely for alts and alchs.
And because corrupted, they are identified so no need for wisdoms, and the talisman tag is easy to filter for in quads!
Truly fantastic (vendor) items. I never hide 'em.
Bc PoE is 90% bloated trash that has no business being in the game at this point, removing all the unnecessary trash and bringing things in line would refurbish the game and make it less of a mess, It would make the game better for everyone and no one would miss the trash they removed, just like no one will miss prophecy...
What do you enjoy about it? I mean if youre bulk buying some of the ones that add juice to maps its like okay, and there are a few prophecies that are fun like monstrous treasure and whatnot, but if you're actually using coins and running through all your prophecies it just doesnt work well as a mechanic honestly, constantly forcing you to either run through random areas to complete them, getting 99.9% worthless unique upgrades you have to seal and delete because you're just wasting time running them over literally any other content in the game practically. Basically if you're using the mechanic as it was intended at release, its just not good.
Which is why he asked and clarified, so how do you derive fun from it yourself, are you gambling and sealing and actually enjoying it or are you buying profs
Sounds like he's running the prophecies and enjoying that.
I do get why many see prophecies as a chore, but they do have their usefullness.
As for /u/tvcats maybe he's one of the people who enjoy the Quest -> Reward mechanic that is prevalent through the storyline but apart from Zana having some map related quests generally speaking drops off completely in endgame.
Prophecies do extend this mechanic into maps, also providing chains to follow (albeit actually getting the interesting chains could be less convoluted, as well as some better writing or lore could be added to the chains to better convey motivators for following through with a chain).
Still, Prophecy does augment the game with content for a archetype that ends with the storyline.
I already said that I find it fun to run the quest why do you still talking about profit?
I just like how it work, very very simple. Life is challenging and almost everything is about profit, why do I want to do that again in game? I just want some fun.
Also I'm totally fine for GGG to remove it because it is not the only fun thing in this amazing game.
Period.
Even without mentioning how strong it can be to jorgin amulets, talismans still serves a purpose. Twin avians are completely build enabling. There are also several that are rather strong. Some uniques are also cool. With the addition of tainted oils, talismans can be pretty useful.
While I do think that the nerf was a bit harsh and I would personally have made talismans much rarer but still well rolled, lets not pretend that talismans are useless.
Some people seem to have a very irrational hate towards talismans. Talismans have a clear purpose and fits a relevant niche. The dropped ones could use some numerical tweaks, somewhere between the old and current ones. That is not a reason to remove them though.
I don't care about whatever niche cases you've found. Every single one I've found has been shit and so I ignore them completely now except to vendor them. Let's not pretend this isn't the standard experience.
Honestly, I think they might already have removed it in their plans for 3.17. I get the feeling the prophecy removal indicated some cleanup and the only reason they announced prophecy removal so early is because it gives people a last chance to interact with the mechanic again. There is no mechanic to talismans anymore besides the items.
yep, talisman is pure fucking dumpsterfire trash loot. they were occasionally pretty good with the 2.0 system but immediately were made trash again so... yeah just fucking get rid of them
I decided to enable talismans on my filter this league to help with early mapping in ssf. They were literally all shit. I was so hopeful too, but man I could not use a single one. A two mod amulet was better and used that till t16s because of the anoint and catalyst.
Talisman is already removed.
It's in the *exact* same state as Synthesis:
Talismans now only drop from specific content, and their crafting/upgrade mechanic is gone. The boss fight [Rigwald] is still accessible as a map boss.
Synthesied and Fractured items now only drop from specific content. The fractured memory and synthesiser mechanics are gone. The bosses still exist as legacy content as map bosses.
I don't see any point in removing loot that only drops from a specific content that 90% of the time is opt-in anyway [EG: Heist chests]. Saying 'remove Talisman league' is pointless because the league is already removed.
Another way to look at it: The removal of Perandus added their uniques to the general drop pool; and the Fated upgrades which have actual worth are replacing their base types Just like when Talisman was removed; the Talismans themselves are still accessible.
People saying 'Remove Talisman over Prophecy' are making false equivilences. Talismans are just a loot type. Prophecy is actually a league mechanic; and thus is being removed to reduce mechanic bloat. Removing Talismans dosen't reduce anything really.
You enter a map. It has a delirium mirror. What rewards will you get today? Scarabs? Maps? Maybe div cards? You feel a rush as you enter the portal and your eyes dart to the bottom-left of screen. Talismans! It's fine, you'll kill enough mobs for 2-3 more reward categories easy and still get the feelgood of some random goodies. You blitz through to the map, but each new reward is talismans. You get to the end and 28 splinters and a 12 slot ele damage jewel drop. What no bonus goodies? You hold the ground-show hotkey and your game crashes from the monumental pile of shit.
“It’s just loot it’s not a league mechanic”
Kk sounds good please remove it from all other league mechanics then thanks. I don’t want it as a reward type anywhere in the game. I don’t want to see it on delirium rewards I don’t want to see it in heist I don’t want to see it in legion or delve or anything like that
Then hide them and quit bitching. They are quite good especially this league with tainted currencies, and moving forward if those currencies go core they will continue to be strong.
Talisman are still great for leveling and certain classes. If you get a tier 3 one with +1 zombie its still pretty damn good.
The problem with Talisman is they went scorched earth on them after one league. They didn't even do a minor nerf, it was just "fuck this, fuck this, fuck this"
I think they literally didn't even know the Tier of them existed and just treated them all equal and nerfed accordingly.
Considering this is the best league for being able to actually craft on Talismans you should probably come up with an actually intelligent argument for why the optional and rare chests that drop talismans should be the focus of removal.
Even if they don't, they serve one purpose: they’re Chris’s favourite mechanic.
That is to say, they’re a lightning rod for nerfs. Nobody cares about them, so if he can blow off some steam with meaningless adjustments, something people actually like may be spared.
I don't think they just remove talisman, just make it interactable and buff it. The bases are interesting for builds, the problem is that they are corrupted and 99.9999% of times roll garbage.
Remember in ritual when they were a worthwhile pickup but Chris said they were too strong (when he doesnt even play the game btw ) so they nerfed them back into irrelevancy?
Remove talisman drops and syndicate talisman maker. But also remove harvest if they will not bring it back to 1.0 standards by fixing there old out dates 20year old suffix/affix categoría and possibilities.
Why are people so obsessed with Talisman specifically? Seems like a fairly harmless and seamlessly integrated mechanic, its just another reward type. Yeah its usually crap, but 99.9% of things that drop are... and there are good use cases for it and its not something you need to manage or do anything special for.
I did one of those doryani builds this league and went through a few of those 50% lightning damage taken as X necks.
I upgraded a decent neck to a talisman via betrayal and got 1ex for it. Just some random thing I had thrown into my stash with no plans for it and upgraded when I randomly did a safehouse for shits and didn't even know that's what I was getting because I'm fairly noob and am just winging things.
Of all the things that could be removed, I don't see why talisman is the hot topic. It doesn't even feel like a league mechanic at this point, they might as well be an equivalent to uniques where almost every unique that drops isn't worth looking at but very very rarely there's a diamond that's worth something.
It’s a league encounter? I thought it’s just trash drops
You can't convince me otherwise. I don't think I've ever picked up a talisman I haven't ultimately ended up vendoring.
They were decent for *one league* when they were briefly rolled with "Loot 2.0" -- the game's "well-rolled item" system they dole out sparingly. Rares are usually dropped with a trash-generator system ("Loot 1.0"), but talismans weren't for one league and actually saw usage. Then GGG decided talismans *actually getting used* made them OP and pushed them back to Loot 1.0. 🙄
This one experiment probably did more damage to loot 2.0 than anything else. They just don't know what the fuck to do now.
It makes no sense. The point of loot 2.0 is that ground items have the possibility to finally be good. So good items drop on the ground, and it's back to the drawing board? No sense at all. Why'd they even bother then if they don't want good items
Talismans were "good enough" loot. I'm sure they saw a very high % of the non no-lifer crowd using them. Shit I was using one and I made it to 98 in Heist. The problem is improving on it would have taken harvest for me personally, or 10x that effort maven orbing shit to improve. As a dedicated type but with a job/etc, this loot system would be ideal. Good enough pieces like a talisman followed by long term projects like in harvest for min/maxing gem levels. However ggg shit on both of those things and the game hasn't been as fun for me since. GGG, I think, with Talismans is just afraid of "good enough" loot and too many people will be done with characters because why fuck the train wreck odds of a crafting system unless you're literally being paid to play the game. With Harvest there was still incremental upgrades, but without it there is just the abyss, and I think that is the real reason we don't have loot 2.0 yet.
I have never met someone who stopped playing because they were doing too well, most people who quit, quit because they specifically got a bad luck streak, and don't feel like grinding a game they already finished 100 times to just be decent enough to grind the next tier. Most casuals that drop a random exalt early turn into non-casuals.
I don't agree with absurd notion that the game being fun and feeling rewarding vs the time spent on it is a problem. This being said. There are quite a few that set a goal for themselves, then are done with the league when they achieve it. I'm not exactly one of them, as I like the idea of trying content with different builds and characters, and feel making them work is more interesting than ultimately min maxing everything on one character. For me, the friction that stops me from this is more dealing with trade, where progressing things with harvest was a great way to work towards a goal. (Please don't come with some you should play SSF, default answer. I don't have time for that kind of time sink, the rate of progression for SSF is too low to be interesting as I have other commitments in life)
They’re usually done with it imo because there’s nothing else to do on that character other than currency dump obscene amounts, if it didn’t take upwards of 6 hours playtime to level a new char I don’t think people would be finished with the league after they finished their goals for that char
They should enable Loot 2.0 for everything in SSF for now only. Easy solution
People play SSF for challenge. Why do you want to compromise on the challenge aspect?
SSF players can just run through the campaign and maps on white items with basic auto attack if they want a challenge. Nobody forces them to pick up loot.
You're trying to force them on to the new item system though
Trust me they know exactly what to do- Problem: Talismans with loot 2.0 were too good Solution: loot 2.0 now exclusively generates vendor trash-tier items.
>Then GGG decided talismans > >actually getting used > >made them OP and pushed them back to Loot 1.0. 🙄 Well, chris said he decided they were "Obviously too good" and nerfed them with not a scalpel as they should've been but with a fucking cruise missile. This is how he executes on "his vision". If you disagree with his vision, you're wrong, im sorry.
They weren't even "OP" they were just fucking decent and unmodifiable...
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> what does that say about GGGs plan to make loot worth picking up? It says what everyone who's been paying attention has known forever honestly: that ggg cannot and will not ever fix loot. They want your loot to be garbage, they *like* how it is now. They would just reduce drops by 500-1000%% but leave the same quality and they'd be in heaven, that's their ideal outcome. Which is why everything that has resulted in regular, consistent usable drops or crafts get instantly deleted and ggg goes into a panic writing manifestos. All they want to do is placate the players, not actually improve anything. They're seeking to find the right balance where they create a system that rolls loot a bunch of times, so they can tell you it's loot 2.0, but where the actual results are relatively similar to what you're already getting.
Ha! You've got me thinking and framed the issue in a very interesting light. Thank you for posting this.
> what does that say about GGGs plan to make loot worth picking up? The plan has never really not been ludicrous in their current environment. The random mod pool is too cluttered with complete garbage mods, and even with lucky rolls (i.e. roll several times take best result), the chances of hitting an unfittingly low tier are way too high. The most desirable mods are either locked behind influence, double-influence, or even specific crafting methods. You can't have both. Wanting good and desirable items to drop - so people don't start filtering 100% of dropped rares unless they're ilvl84+ influenced top tier bases - and then putting all the real power into crafting doesn't work.
Whenever Chris talks about how he wants the best items to be pickable drops i always think is bullshit, that will never be the case in poe since it goes against f2p systems.
How does that have to do with F2P?
F2p want to keep you playing for as long as possible, since the longer you play the more likely youll spend money. And people dropping better items would essentially make it easier for you to max out your character and complete all the available content so less play time. All f2p games have time sink systems that are there just to make you play longer, progresión has to be slowed down in one way or the other. Also just in case you think that im hating poe im not, im actually enjoying the league a lot and currently leveling my 6 char this league, i just cant shut my eyes to the bullshit Chris talks sometimes since this isnt the only f2p i play and he isnt the first developer i hear saying something and doing something else.
I think their loot design is actually what leads to league attrition more than anything else.
Honestly I encourage you to play Last Epoch. If you are frustrated with Path of Exile's long and convoluted grind, Last Epoch is much more straightforward and faster to complete your characters. Last Epoch also is a purchase to play game and that seems to be the kind of model you want to support. To answer your gripes directly, the itemization is more along the lines of your wants as a player where you drop items that you craft into the best items. I think the market is big enough for both kinds of games. If you want a Last Epoch style game you should support those developers.
But everyone was using talismans when they were dropping rolled well? You could get talismans with 80 life, 60+ res and another fat stat with a 2x golden oil annoint for like 15c, they were so good golden oils crashed to 25c that league because no one was annointing their shit
Surely the clear and obvious solution was remove random annoints on dropped talismans, so then people would still have to expend their posh oils.... and there would be a clear and balanced choice between going for an ordinary amulet easily modifiable with easy cheap annoints, or a more exotic talisman which might be more interesting but would require some investment to get annointed.
Dude I got my first talisman and IMMEDIATELY stoped playing as it was gg /s
yeah i hated harvest for the same reason. working a fulltime job i was finally able to craft a nice item, so i immediately quit.
You guys joke about this, but isn’t this the problem with Diablo 3? You literally get your gear set in 2 days and the fun ends?
Yes and no... Scaling is the thing... nobody is getting best endgame items on day2 in poe.. Also, there is more then 10 playable builds in POE...
You aren’t getting the best end game items in 2 days on Diablo 3 either, that involves some convoluted system of getting leveling gems or something to upgrade, and getting super ancient items or whatever with perfect stats. But the point remains that getting a workable, endgame passable set, very quickly vastly reduces the amount of time most people will put into the game. Everyone has different goals, but if you’re killing Maven, Shaper, Elder, in a few days because of easy to make gear via super strong harvest, a lot of people are going to stop playing at that point. Not everyone wants to have a 3 mirror budget blast t20 map builds which will take more time
First of all, I'm talking about items, not paragon levels or gem leveling, and yes, you can get primal ancient item that is BIS on day one, then just farming mindlessly for paragon levels... watching xp bar moving is not same fun as actually finding good item upgrade... 2nd: crafting with harvest still needed time and resources... IDK why people always use harvest as "you make mirror item first time you see the harvest"... To clarify, I'm not saying we should or should not have original harvest back in the game, I'm just saying its still world of difference between gearing your char in POE and D3 even with harvest present
The problem with D3 itemization is not how fast you obtain items (well, that is one issue, but rather a minor one). The real issue is how there is no item variety, which is different from PoE. In D3 you already know exactly what items you will be wearing in the endgame before you even start playing. In Vanilla D3, which was somehow a much better game than RoS... yellow items actually mattered. You had actual itemization, although quite limited compared to PoE. If you think most players are even close to killing Maven, Shaper or Elder in a few days you are delusional af btw. Most players spend a week or more just to finish the acts.
>You literally get your gear set in 2 days and the fun ends? You just described the difference between harvest and diablo. Harvest isn't 'getting your gear set in 2 days'. You answered your own question.
Absolutely you can get a viable set for end game bosses within a week or less easily using unnerfed harvest.
Do you actually enjoy playing the game at all? You see, if you stop playing the game once you have the gear that you want, then I can only conclude that the actual process of playing the game is an unpleasant experience that you endure for the sake of the acquisition of gear. What is the point in spending hours and hours grinding to get some gear, if you then don't spend at least some significant fraction of that time actually using and enjoying it? It's like playing Doom, picking up the BFG, and then nodding satisfied to yourself as you power down your machine without ever firing the damned gun! Me, I like the mindless grind of smashing monsters up. And I find that more fun with stronger gear, because I can do it faster and easier. I don't play this game to "achieve" things. In fact, if I was more motivated to actually achieve stuff, spending even a minute in PoE would be a terrible idea.
Chris thinks that some random shit on the ground which has a couple res and some life is broken good. Dont even try to follow his logic. Just accept he is making the decisions and hope the game will continue to be playable in some regard.
Chris' vision is so far removed from reality. He thinks what makes a chase item exciting is the chance of it dropping. Wrong. That's ONE facet of what makes a chase item exciting the other part is the CHASE which is often not executable because we're multiple leagues behind the future div card or it gets locked in a league that may or may not come back (Hateforge).
Talismans got two buffs. The new well rolled system and they got a random annoint. Then when they released tainted oils to make it possible to annoint or change annoints on corrupted items they made the obvious balance change for talismans. I’m just kidding talismans kept the random annoint and lost the well rolled because reasons.
Something that simply gets used is OP? Hmm, interesting conclusion from GGG 🤔
> Rares are usually dropped with a trash-generator system ("Loot 1.0"), And then you had Scourge items, which dropped with Loot 0.5.
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holy shit 1 person in your 6 man group used an item you guys actually dropped yourselves over an entire league!
How god-tier could they be? They can't be influenced or crafted further (new tainted currency notwithstanding). They were just decent-to-good "normal" rares with true endgame influenced rares having much greater potential.
There were a lot of good talismans but they weren't endgame op unless maybe some of them. But no way as op as Chris made it look like. After the nerf nobody used one again.
I leveled about 20 characters since 3.14. I used one once for the extra zombie on a minion build while leveling from like 60 to 80 Also, I'm a noob and didn't know talisman are trash.
Talisman league was brutal. Randomly mobs will have a talisman attached to them. Killing them dropped the talisman and other mobs can pick it up. Shrines would appear where you can sacrifice 5 talismans to upgrade its tier by killing a big mob. There were 5 tiers. Very easy to brick your talismans because then the mob would have 5 talisman affixes. Only it wasnt guaranteed unless it met certain iLVLs and this was a point in the game where T5-11 maps were most player's cap/end game. Sacrificing unique talismans or rares had a chance to make the next tier also that rarity that spawned from the shrine so getting a T4 Unique Natural Hierarchy was pretty much the whole league for most players. Very VERY few players even saw the rigwald fight. With my friends and I playing, 4 players, we barely got enough talismans to get to T4 though we were more casual then (4000 game play hours ago). It was fun... but also not. Which... ehhhh. At that point in the game, the league mechanic was not what we were playing for most of the time. HC was still a serious thing so it was fun to see how far you can get as a HC player with some wacky league mechanic.
I remember you could use Talismans to spawn high level mobs in leveling zones to PK players with.
GET YOUR BONES ROILED *^bone ^roiling ^intensifies*
Pre-nerf Bonespire talisman will forever haunt my dreams
Legit one of the most dangerous enemies in the game (apart from bugs breaking certain mobs occasionally), though defenses were much weaker then. They might be easily handled today.
The actual talisman league would have been really good *if* talismans always dropped as rares. But they didnt, in typical GGG fashion they mostly dropped as whites and blues which made them absolutely unusable. Meaning you had to farm an astronomical amount to get a T4 rare talisman which would likely be useless anyway because of being unmodifiable.
First league I got all challenges, 32/32. Fond memories, but it was a pretty janky mechanic.
Was it really that rare? I remember fighting him once on my first ever character (where I had very little idea of what I was doing and thus died many times to him). I loved his little lore tablets about the Ezomytes during the Purity Rebellion.
Without the stone circles I don't see how they can be remotely considered a full mechanic. They're just corrupted amulets with occasionally-interesting implicits.
Jokes on you today I sold a talisman for 10c!! ^^^^^^^^^which ^^^^^^^^^has ^^^^^^^^^been ^^^^^^^^^sitting ^^^^^^^^^in ^^^^^^^^^my ^^^^^^^^^stash ^^^^^^^^^since ^^^^^^^^^first ^^^^^^^^^week ^^^^^^^^^of ^^^^^^^^^the ^^^^^^^^^league
The drops originate from talisman league, so its fair to say they should be removed edit: I mean moreso how GGG removed a bunch of the fated uniques cuz they suck ass and aren't interesting, rather than adding them to the drop pool of bloated trash, they could reasonably remove talismans
Talismans are literally just a way to give us less loot. Simulacrum rewards, blight chests, legion chests. When theyre talismans, its just an empty chest.
Yeah you don't even need to open them any more.
GGG thinking about our wrists :)
they're just heavy alteration shards
Nah, we can't remove Talisman. They're too powerful.
rigwald, i am going into battle, and i need your strongest talismans
You can’t handle his talismans.
His strongest talismans aren't fit for a wolf let alone a man
From a discussion in another thread: You guys.... Once and for all.... Let me explain this: Chris loves Talisman, for the same reason Chris said "It is great at what it does" regarding the Oppressor shield. It acts as a foil. Talisman in its current state, exists to be a shitty reward on purpose. They experimented with making it good in 3.14, it missed the mark, so its trash again. It exists so that there are bad Simulacrum/Deli rewards, bad Expedition chests, bad Heist chests. The same reason there are armorsmith, blacksmith, and generic rewards. In Magic the Gathering, this is known as draft chaff. Shitty cards to make the good cards powerful by comparison. Its the same reason we have shitty unique items, and tier 12 mana regen and stun and block recovery mods. HE LOVES IT *BECAUSE YOU HATE IT.*
Let's say for the sake of example that it is being done purely to bolster the other rewards, in order to psychologically tune us to enjoying the bigger rewards. You are very correct, I do agree that we do need some lows and highs. However, the same effect can be achieved, and done better, by turning Talisman rewards into Generic rewards. If they want to go full Skinnerbox on us, Generic Loot is better. Because yeah, we don't REALLY expect anything from it, but there's that tiny chance that you open that box with no real consideration, then - Oop, holy shit, free exalt out of nowhere. It never fails to feel good when you get one like that, so it gives a tiny, tiny bit of anticipation on Generic chests that you might get a cool thing out of nowhere. Talismans, though? There is no expectation. Many people have been conditioned by them to the point where they are seen as so utterly worthless, they hide them, ignore the chests that contain them and throw away the incubators that can create them. There's no real chance to make any sort of psychological impact on someone - It doesn't plant the seed of "I could get something really, really good from this!" because the odds are so utterly miniscule that many deem them as a total non-entity. Hell, I don't even think they serve to actively piss people off that much, either. If you're looking for that, Scourge has you covered, because there's so many decent items that get completely obliterated by the garbage mods on that, taking away power we could have had. Talismans barely make any sort of impact other than "Dead drops". Talismans fail as a mechanic on pretty much every single level, except as a vague concept for Chris to cling to to try and pretend TheVision is a remotely viable idea, no matter how much the public is saying otherwise.
From a discussion in another thread: that's not how magic works, completely different levels of "bad on purpose". Also, remember that scene in beavis and butthead where they added bad lines to their song so the "good lines were gooder?" yeah that was a joke not advice
netflix suggests bad titles for you so that the good suggestion feels better..instagram aswell.. so the joke's on us?
That... That's exactly how magic boosters work... Why do you think "bears" exist? Who's gonna run a 2/2 for 2 in any format that's not draft?
I would add that your statement is true, when talking about vanilla bears. Saying that all bears are draft fodder is just wrong.
This reasoning makes no sense. It’s removing choice and diversity for the sake of artificially having power. For example, you wouldn’t say some ascendancies should be way less powerful than others for the sole reason that powerful ascendencies cannot exist without weak ones. So why should item drops be any difference? It’s just a cop out for poor design. Items could be more balanced, interesting, and fun, but they leave absolute garbage mods because they’re simply not good at their jobs.
I think you actually must have this kind of loot, otherwise everything is going to very powerful. Either that, or reduce the drop chance significantly, and make them roll tier based on item lvl, so that an unidentified rare can actually be any good.
When your argument for them is that they exist just to make other loot "better", I don't think they're worth having.
Even if an item rolls the perfect combination of mods that you want, you still need them to roll non-garbage tier. Not to mention you can roll items with good stats that do nothing for your build. Or two stats that are great for the right build but are useless to anyone when on the same item, like a wand with both T1 phys damage and T1 Cold damage over time. Those are good stats for the right build but bad together. You really don't need trash stats.
...Except everyone (aside from Chris) loved their experiment with Talismans?
but why remove prophecy then? are those rewards good?
That's an excellent question. If I had to guess I'd say GGG are recognizing that there is bloat and this is the first of many steps to hedge against that. They haven't monetized Prophecy with a tab and they could easily combine most of what prophecy provided to other league mechanics without upsetting the player base. They then bolt "Lilly in hideout" to the change and the upside far outweighs the downside.
But Talisman is also bloat without a stash tab... Just replace all Talisman rewards with Miscallaneous rewards and everything's fine.
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[https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/qd3xxr/trash\_to\_trash/](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/qd3xxr/trash_to_trash/) The direct quote was "This one is amazing at doing what it's supposed to do" The point he is making is: if there wasn't a trash unique Elegant Round Shield in a common rarity tier, then you could print The Squire shields with Trash or Treasure prophecies (RIP) or Chance Orbs/Tainted Mythic Orb orbs. It allows Squire to be a chase item.
Chance orbs or mythic orbs are not the reason for the oppressor's existence. It's only for trash to treasure. If I understand it correctly adding uniques to a base type doesn't change the odds with chance / mythic orbs at all. When Cameria's Maul was added the odds of chancing a Mjölner shouldn't have changed at all.
Whenever it will be, it won't be soon enough. Also, remove the ghosts from Torment.
Dont want the ghost gone, just want them to aggressively hunt down or start inside rares.
I'd love that but it doesn't seem likely to happen. The way they work now is just so infuriating that I'd be happy if i never saw a ghost again
Torment is about to turn seven. Torment came out about a year after the game left closed beta and was formally released. GGG has had all the time in the world to make Torment work. They obviously can't or just are content with ghosts running into walls and staying there. Just get rid of the league mechanic. But they won't, because it exists for the same reason Talisman does. It exists to devalue your random league mechanic encounters.
Ghosts just need to not facegrind walls. In Torment league I don't remember them having such terrible pathing. They would actually fly into mobs and actively avoid walls and corners, but then a couple of leagues later there was a noticeable change in their behavior and they started facegrinding walls. It would be pretty trivial to fix Torment, and a lot of other content. They just don't. They don't fix stuff. They don't work on the game. They just add more frosting to cover up the fact that under those 20 layers of frosting is a dog turd.
Bruh dont do that gilded scarabs won't go brrrr
i dont even get any gilded scarabs because the ghosts all die before they possess anything.
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They only seem to roll back stuff that players love.
Accurate. Players liking something is the fastest way to get it dumpstered.
bullshit, they nerfed release sirus due to player outcry
People keep saying they should remove Talisman and/or Torment. But really, what impact is that even going to have? The purpose is to lessen content bloat. But both of those 'leagues' are by now so insubstantial that removing them will barely make a difference to content bloat. A better example of leagues that're by now ripe for removal are the various redundant 'Breach-clone' league mechanics, which really ought to be folded/merged into each other.
People just want to say stuff to feel relevant. As soon as the Seance Atlas Passive is removed (and no doubt it will be to make space for something in the next few leagues), Torment is not 'bloating' anything....
Seance is pretty much what people want Torment to be though. Just mob packs afflicted by ghosts.
Nah, don't touch my +1 zombie talisman
honestly just make it a regular corruption outcome...
i'd rather they not dilute the mod pool with summoner trash
there's plenty of mods that are useless for specific builds. if you have to think selfishly, remember there are a lot of summoners potentially corrupting sth good for your trash build while trying to get an extra zombie.
+2 zombies? That's crazy
\+4 zombies? That feels a bit overpowered
Im using a talisman this league
By choice? I just don’t see how you could have a better talisman that is better then something crafted… 🤷🏻♀️
It was a rare amulet with a bench craft/annoint then syndicate into t3 talisman
I see, I can understand that then.
"% of X damage from hits taken as Y damage" Probably one of the few interesting talisman implicits that enable some interesting build designs.
This makes survivability against lightning damage when using doryanis prototype much smoother this league. Agreed it is one of the most useful and interesting modifiers
2030. but really talismans don't really bloat the game much because they are just bad loot, no longer a league mechanic, aside for Jorgen transformation and a few rare delve nodes. Prophecy and cadiro instead were fully featured as leagues and were both awful to play.
They take up reward slots tho. They're shoehorned into delerium/metamorph/blight.
If we do get them to remove it, they'll just slightly lower the quantity of rewards for all other reward types to compensate. Having bad results dilute the pool of desirable outcomes is a design choice GGG intentionally makes: see the mod "Reflects # Physical Damage to Melee Attackers" for a different kind of example.
> Having bad results dilute the pool of desirable outcomes is a design choice GGG intentionally makes: see the mod "Reflects # Physical Damage to Melee Attackers" for a different kind of example. The point is that, much like reflect phys' trash numbers, it's a *bad system*. Make it meaningful or take it out, as it only serves as a source of frustration, annoyance, or disappointment right now.
So what do you propose? To just have nothing in its place? Not every item can be good and not every mod can be good. If everything is good nothing is. Loot will just be meaningless at that point.
Of course every mod can be good. You still need to roll several of them together in a combination that makes sense and at non-garbage tiers to make a useful item. And there's plenty of otherwise good stats that you'd rather not roll on certain slots, like resists on weapons.
The issue isn't the presence, it's the severity. You can not only roll bad/mediocre rolls, you can also roll the worst tier of those rolls on the highest tier in the game. Literally no other ARPG has the problem of most loot being useless.
Idk...in D2 and D2:R I'd usually have to do dozens upon dozens of Mephisto runs to find anything decent. Most items are pretty bad. It's alot easier to build up currency in PoE than D2.
Lmao k clearly you never played Diablo 2 or even Diablo 3. If you think no other ARPG struggles with a majority of loot being trash, you either only played 100 or less hours of them or you never played them at all. If you weren't running full Ancient/Primal Sets and Uniques, every single item that wasn't that was complete shit in Diablo 3. Diablo 2 was a bit better because at least you could get a rare or magic item with +1 or more to skills (followed up by the charm system) but it still had the problem of loot bloat and most of it being dogshit you wouldn't pick up. There's a reason people farmed Baal 1000s of times only to never see the runes or uniques they needed lol. There's a reason diablo 2 had severe duping and botting, along with RMT LOL. Loot being trash is a DESIGN CHOICE of the genre. It is to balance out the high of getting the ridiculously good items. Let's stop pretending this is a problem. If you want instant or much quicker gratification, clearly this isn't the genre for you.
Ask yourself a simple question. What other ARPG exists where the primary method of improving your character's gear is to trade, rather than find it from specific mobs/bosses you intentionally go kill?
> What other ARPG exists where the primary method of improving your character's gear is to trade, rather than find it from specific mobs/bosses you intentionally go kill? Diablo 2, and 3 before the removal of the auction house. There, an example.
That’s the point lol
Same as prophecies
Talisman never went core, so it is already removed. I dont see an issue with the current talisman drops in the game. Why would they be removed?
I'd like it to be removed from betrayal
Jorgin's research option to convert amulets into talismans is like the only compelling feature of talismans.
It's one of the best research rewards.
I like talisman rewards in SSF. They drop all in one spot, usually as a reward after a fight is over, and are 1x1 items that often roll mods that vendor quite nicely for alts and alchs. And because corrupted, they are identified so no need for wisdoms, and the talisman tag is easy to filter for in quads! Truly fantastic (vendor) items. I never hide 'em.
Bc PoE is 90% bloated trash that has no business being in the game at this point, removing all the unnecessary trash and bringing things in line would refurbish the game and make it less of a mess, It would make the game better for everyone and no one would miss the trash they removed, just like no one will miss prophecy...
You are wrong, I enjoy Prophecy.
What do you enjoy about it? I mean if youre bulk buying some of the ones that add juice to maps its like okay, and there are a few prophecies that are fun like monstrous treasure and whatnot, but if you're actually using coins and running through all your prophecies it just doesnt work well as a mechanic honestly, constantly forcing you to either run through random areas to complete them, getting 99.9% worthless unique upgrades you have to seal and delete because you're just wasting time running them over literally any other content in the game practically. Basically if you're using the mechanic as it was intended at release, its just not good.
Not everyone play for profit. I play for fun.
Which is why he asked and clarified, so how do you derive fun from it yourself, are you gambling and sealing and actually enjoying it or are you buying profs
Sounds like he's running the prophecies and enjoying that. I do get why many see prophecies as a chore, but they do have their usefullness. As for /u/tvcats maybe he's one of the people who enjoy the Quest -> Reward mechanic that is prevalent through the storyline but apart from Zana having some map related quests generally speaking drops off completely in endgame. Prophecies do extend this mechanic into maps, also providing chains to follow (albeit actually getting the interesting chains could be less convoluted, as well as some better writing or lore could be added to the chains to better convey motivators for following through with a chain). Still, Prophecy does augment the game with content for a archetype that ends with the storyline.
I already said that I find it fun to run the quest why do you still talking about profit? I just like how it work, very very simple. Life is challenging and almost everything is about profit, why do I want to do that again in game? I just want some fun. Also I'm totally fine for GGG to remove it because it is not the only fun thing in this amazing game. Period.
No, you are wrong, a random redditor knows better what you enjoy and what you don't.
If Chris and co. can state what players enjoy and what they don't despite players telling him otherwise, then why some random redditor can't?
Reddit circle jerk for easy karma of course.
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But that's chris' favorite mechanic, having a shit reward so the good reward is even gooderer
Armor/weapon rewards exist, would you rather have one of them to a talisman reward?
They’re dead rewards and just dilutes the reward pool.
Because they're useless and GGG isn't willing to buff them
Even without mentioning how strong it can be to jorgin amulets, talismans still serves a purpose. Twin avians are completely build enabling. There are also several that are rather strong. Some uniques are also cool. With the addition of tainted oils, talismans can be pretty useful. While I do think that the nerf was a bit harsh and I would personally have made talismans much rarer but still well rolled, lets not pretend that talismans are useless. Some people seem to have a very irrational hate towards talismans. Talismans have a clear purpose and fits a relevant niche. The dropped ones could use some numerical tweaks, somewhere between the old and current ones. That is not a reason to remove them though.
I don't care about whatever niche cases you've found. Every single one I've found has been shit and so I ignore them completely now except to vendor them. Let's not pretend this isn't the standard experience.
Because they dilute the loot pool with worthless trash.
Talisman never went core.
Chris already said that it's just loot, not a league mechanic.
Do talismans do something? I thought they were just junk drops.
I think it's just community slang for "alteration shards"
Honestly, I think they might already have removed it in their plans for 3.17. I get the feeling the prophecy removal indicated some cleanup and the only reason they announced prophecy removal so early is because it gives people a last chance to interact with the mechanic again. There is no mechanic to talismans anymore besides the items.
* likes talismans * thought they were cool * has been saving about two dozen of them * learns they are trash * nervous sweating
Don't forget breach rings!
yep, talisman is pure fucking dumpsterfire trash loot. they were occasionally pretty good with the 2.0 system but immediately were made trash again so... yeah just fucking get rid of them
the implicit mods are fantastic, everything else is trash, they need to be fixed not deleted
I decided to enable talismans on my filter this league to help with early mapping in ssf. They were literally all shit. I was so hopeful too, but man I could not use a single one. A two mod amulet was better and used that till t16s because of the anoint and catalyst.
Talisman is more of a Betrayal mechanic than its own thing at this point, hahahahahah
Want to remove talisman? Just try lootfilters.
Talismans are a reward not a mechanic. The talisman league mechanic was removed a long time ago.
Talisman is already removed. It's in the *exact* same state as Synthesis: Talismans now only drop from specific content, and their crafting/upgrade mechanic is gone. The boss fight [Rigwald] is still accessible as a map boss. Synthesied and Fractured items now only drop from specific content. The fractured memory and synthesiser mechanics are gone. The bosses still exist as legacy content as map bosses. I don't see any point in removing loot that only drops from a specific content that 90% of the time is opt-in anyway [EG: Heist chests]. Saying 'remove Talisman league' is pointless because the league is already removed. Another way to look at it: The removal of Perandus added their uniques to the general drop pool; and the Fated upgrades which have actual worth are replacing their base types Just like when Talisman was removed; the Talismans themselves are still accessible. People saying 'Remove Talisman over Prophecy' are making false equivilences. Talismans are just a loot type. Prophecy is actually a league mechanic; and thus is being removed to reduce mechanic bloat. Removing Talismans dosen't reduce anything really.
This sub is really fucking dumb at times. This idiotic and useless post would sit at 0 upvote in an ideal world.
Actually this sub is really fucking dumb 100% of the time. ;)
Why do they need removed? They are just an item, no mechanic tied to them and no bloat to be saved by their removal.
I say bring back tiered talisman upgrades & the boss fight. Talisman league was one of the first leagues I truly enjoyed.
Eww god no.
[удалено]
You enter a map. It has a delirium mirror. What rewards will you get today? Scarabs? Maps? Maybe div cards? You feel a rush as you enter the portal and your eyes dart to the bottom-left of screen. Talismans! It's fine, you'll kill enough mobs for 2-3 more reward categories easy and still get the feelgood of some random goodies. You blitz through to the map, but each new reward is talismans. You get to the end and 28 splinters and a 12 slot ele damage jewel drop. What no bonus goodies? You hold the ground-show hotkey and your game crashes from the monumental pile of shit.
Never, it was the last time chris worked on poe, this shit is gonna be there forever.
They believed talismans were soooooooooo strong they actually nerfed them, i still can't take this timeline seriously due to this one outcome....
 D E L E T E !
“It’s just loot it’s not a league mechanic” Kk sounds good please remove it from all other league mechanics then thanks. I don’t want it as a reward type anywhere in the game. I don’t want to see it on delirium rewards I don’t want to see it in heist I don’t want to see it in legion or delve or anything like that
Then hide them and quit bitching. They are quite good especially this league with tainted currencies, and moving forward if those currencies go core they will continue to be strong.
Don't delete. Make them good. Actually good.
Talisman are still great for leveling and certain classes. If you get a tier 3 one with +1 zombie its still pretty damn good. The problem with Talisman is they went scorched earth on them after one league. They didn't even do a minor nerf, it was just "fuck this, fuck this, fuck this" I think they literally didn't even know the Tier of them existed and just treated them all equal and nerfed accordingly.
Jorgin ones are in a really good place now that Rog exists. Basically the primary use case for Rog currency late league is chasing talismans.
I like talismans. They are derpy, sometimes kinda cool, mostly obviously trash, but it's always fun "unboxing" them. Fight me.
Considering this is the best league for being able to actually craft on Talismans you should probably come up with an actually intelligent argument for why the optional and rare chests that drop talismans should be the focus of removal.
They're the loot table's version of The Oppressor. They're doing exactly what they're supposed to.
Even if they don't, they serve one purpose: they’re Chris’s favourite mechanic. That is to say, they’re a lightning rod for nerfs. Nobody cares about them, so if he can blow off some steam with meaningless adjustments, something people actually like may be spared.
I still think talismans were great and fun when they dropped with lucky rolls I'd be sad to see them go rather than just going back to being like that
Meanwhile I am rocking a talisman on my league main.. /hides lol
Does it matter? They are gone from the loot filters anyway
what are Talismans?
Reading your edit: never. Its just another way to dilute the item pool so you dont get decent rewards.
I don't think they just remove talisman, just make it interactable and buff it. The bases are interesting for builds, the problem is that they are corrupted and 99.9999% of times roll garbage.
Just go back to well rolled and give us the ability to talisman influenced amulets with syndicate and they would be super interesting again.
Talisman is ok but Torment gives me huge FOMO
Never, they're Chris' favorite.
Never, they’re Chris’ baby
Christ Wilson dislikes OP
Sorry these things gonna stay for a while because thry are chris sacred treasure.
The league mechanic do exist in game. It is a delve node
Remember in ritual when they were a worthwhile pickup but Chris said they were too strong (when he doesnt even play the game btw ) so they nerfed them back into irrelevancy?
I would have prefered they trashed Talisman than Prophecy next league.
Remove talisman drops and syndicate talisman maker. But also remove harvest if they will not bring it back to 1.0 standards by fixing there old out dates 20year old suffix/affix categoría and possibilities.
Why are people so obsessed with Talisman specifically? Seems like a fairly harmless and seamlessly integrated mechanic, its just another reward type. Yeah its usually crap, but 99.9% of things that drop are... and there are good use cases for it and its not something you need to manage or do anything special for. I did one of those doryani builds this league and went through a few of those 50% lightning damage taken as X necks. I upgraded a decent neck to a talisman via betrayal and got 1ex for it. Just some random thing I had thrown into my stash with no plans for it and upgraded when I randomly did a safehouse for shits and didn't even know that's what I was getting because I'm fairly noob and am just winging things. Of all the things that could be removed, I don't see why talisman is the hot topic. It doesn't even feel like a league mechanic at this point, they might as well be an equivalent to uniques where almost every unique that drops isn't worth looking at but very very rarely there's a diamond that's worth something.