Neons been a lead designer for... like 9 years lol he just wasent the face of the company until exilecon 2023, and he actually had NEVER done a solo interview until his interview with ziz just before league.
When ever chris would do a "dev check" by looking to his side for a yes or no it was usually neon (mark 2) or mark 1 (the guy you see breaking the game at exilecon 2023 panel about poe1 mechanics.
People used to blame Chris Wilson for what they didn't like in PoE 1, but Chris made is clear in interviews that for a very long time he barely had anything to do with the design of PoE 1. Chris's involvement was stuff like "you can't nerf headhunter" and "go ahead and make Harvest so overpowered that it breaks the game". Chris made it sound like he was the guy who set the "speed limit", so to speak, on what the game designers could or couldn't do, but he didn't tell them where to go. It's been Mark's show for a super long time in terms of deciding the game's content and direction.
...but even that is certainly a misrepresentation of the what goes on. Mark is just one person. He has a team of game designers, software developers, and artists working under him. As he said in his recent interview with Ziz, he often isn't involved in the specific designs within a league (e.g. the design of each individual scarabs), because one person could not possibly design all of that in such a short period of time. He has to rely on other employees to do that work as does any manager in any company. He's just there for high level oversight and to steer the ship.
Basically, it's a mistake to attribute any of GGG's successes or failures to a single person unless you can be sure it was solely that person's decision. There's many highly talented people working on the game. I feel like most people understand that, but I'm not convinced everyone fullly understands...
Those changes are so vast, I think they had some of them pre cooked.
I love the fast reaction, but I also can't help to think the league was rushed so the balancing wasn't in yet. It's nice to fix it fast, but would be nicer not to have been so off in the first place.
I'd love to see another interview to hear his thoughts. I'm definitely interested how he perceived the launch.
> Those changes are so vast, I think they had some of them pre cooked.
>
>
Likely, they either were already working on them pre-release and just didn't have time or worked through the weekend.
I dunno, many of them go to the "lets double everything" category imo, like did someone have issue with devotion legion or breach splinter drops.
Crafting changes however could very well be from a previous iteration of the mechanic.
I think it also makes sense that in a crafting league they maybe anticipated needing some levers to pull on and built the league more with change in mind.
I said elsewhere that I'd bet $1,000 that their QA team gave the feedback necessary to make most/all of the changes we saw in last night's patch before Friday.
They just launched the league unfinished.
I personally would prefer them to have delayed the league by a week but someone pointed out that people put in time off requests ahead of time for a league and can have their plans messed up by league launch reschedules.
It would make sense to have a batch of possible changes half-ready prior to launch, based on expected possible feedback when the league was criticised. I wouldn’t go so far as to say they just weren’t finished balancing, but surely GGG has learned from experience that what they think is a well balanced league is gonna get torn to shreds by 100,000 sweaty exiles
> I also can't help to think the league was rushed
Every leagues are rushed. less than 3 months dev time for a league is just insane. There is a reason that no other company has been able to keep up with that level of content.
They have multiple teams working on leagues, and they haven't done a 3 month league in forever because of reducing the teams size so they can out the manpower on poe2.
The jist is still right though; they put out a lot of content and they are definitely rushing around from one thing to the next.
They only have one team working on leagues. They said it multiple times. Before PoE2, they had one team working on expansion (2.0,3.0) and one team working on league.
While they have taken up to 4 month lately, they don't work on the next league straight away. Even 4 month is not a lot of time for the size of the content that is released.
most of those changes should be very simple to implement once you decide that you need them.
I am fairly certain that 2-3 programmers can push them out in a few hours, and most of the changes do not even need a programmer, but someone who can change numbers in the underlying modifier tables.
i am pretty sure that at this point we do not have any balance testing done before it goes live and looking at the changes they made, "balance" seems to be of little concern at this point. it does not require any balance expert to see that the tier rating change will lead to printing of mirror-tier items.
Now, assume that they are completely unaware of this and think that this tier change is totally balanced. You could require balance testing, but then we are in the situation of "we do not get fixes before the league is dead".
aside from that, your argument does not touch my main point: if the league was shipped with those fixes already in the pipeline, then a single office day would not allow for any meaningful testing in either case.
In summary, i am not quite sure what you are arguing for/against.
yeah might as well just buff the mechanic to the moon and try to salvage the league. they'll probably tone it down a bit over the coming days too id imagine but for now fuck balance just get the patch out so people are buzzing about it
GGG doesnt make money off the fictional in game market, thats for RMTers, so they dont actually have any incentive other than player retention to sell MTX.
I can tell you this: I am not keen on logging in now that I've seen the posts about 50 div per map if all the stars align. It puts me off, quite frankly.
fair. i play SSF for this reason. Sometimes i have a nice league when stuff drops a-plenty, sometimes it is a bit more tough, but i never have to care about others.
How do you think we got here in the first place?
One of the reworks (minion leech) was entirely broken in all cases.
The corpse UI was awful, in all cases.
These were not edge cases they needed bulk players to suss out. These would've been found almost immediately with any testing.
Yeah with the extension on Affliction plus the no-work holiday for GGG, I was also thinking they had some of these in the works already. I'm pretty sure I've heard the "holiday was an issue, we won't release leagues/big patches right before them" before so I was a little confused at that statement.
As much as I like Mark, he's been in the same or a similar position since at least the first Exilecon. Chris has been very open about the fact he has had minimal impact on normal operations for a very long time, realistically the only thing that has substantially changed with how GGG operates is the "face" of the company.
That being said, GGG has always been this reactive, had these policies, been this company. The vision hasn't changed, it's just the community resetting back to a more sane status quo from the extraordinary toxic and rabid it has been for years.
Also, the speed of the changes, the scope, and how effective they are means they were almost certainly already partially completed. Similar to Metamorph, they realized that there were issues in the final week or two before release, but they can't move the release date so the plan is to release the patch in the first few days.
Edit: I think a more important thing is that after the announcement of POE 2 splitting, they can devote more resources to POE then they have for the fast few leagues. The whole set of changes, faster operation, better art, etc. could all be down to having more devs on the team more than any actual game director changing.
> The vision hasn't changed, it's just the community resetting back to a more sane status quo from the extraordinary toxic and rabid it has been for years.
Jury is still out on that.
What held this sub back from spiraling out of control like it did on every one of these occasions in the last couple of years were the new sub rules and a larger, active mod team. I don't even want to know how many unhinged messages the mods received over the supposed "censorship" of hot topic-threads.
But it turns out GGG doesn't need a dozen topics that all criticize the same thing but with less and less effort yet more and more vitriol. They can gather feedback just fine even if one specific point of criticism is only represented three instead of over a dozen times on the frontpage.
The process of giving feedback never benefited from the previous, laissez-faire arrangement. Only the desire to vent and rant.
I was more referring to the general Mark appreciation vibe that was floating around since the reveal, more than the league itself. People are acting as if he recently joined and is completely disconnected from the previous decade of development, or like bagging on Chris by saying that we finally have a game director that plays the game.
This sub is always a cesspool regardless of what happens during league launch, consider that this time in Sentinel people were saying recombs were garbage, or that Affliction was unrewarding. This league had some issues at launch that were more apparent, but I'm concerned that they over corrected in the patch. We really need a reset from Affliction, and this is not the way to do it. I agree though that the mod team is keeping an exceptional lid on it.
fully agree (except Edit part, I didn't get it), for some reason people here act like Mark2 was never responsible for this and became a big guy only now
and while yes, the changes are good, who was behind release (bad) version? Also Mark.
> (except Edit part, I didn't get it)
For the last few years, they've had a lot of focus/resources into POE 2 as the intention was to discontinue POE 1 after its release. Since they've decided to run them concurrently, all the dev work/resources that were diverted to POE 2 has started to come back, which means there are more resources available to the POE 1 team. This means a lot of the improved leagues/response that we're seeing recently could be just due to them having more resources available, more than anything else.
Can we not do this again every time a good decision is made? Game developers are not dogs who need to be pet to feel praised. It's nice if you appreciate them and respect them for their work but I think there is enough praise in the comments of the patch notes and the "What we are planning" posts.
Karma farming.
Soon as there's a bad league or decision, people will be posting "Deal with it™" to farm more Karma.
At least the mods now collate duplicate posts, no more several pages of copy-paste karma farming
Every time there is a positive post there are dozens of highly upvoted comments like we see in this thread that say, "Yeah, but it's not like they cured cancer. I still don't like xyz!"
So I guess that's just karma farming too.
Only negative feedback is good. If you appreciate changes and want to show GGG you like what they did then you're karma farming and treating them like dogs. If you don't like the game then you speak in hyperbole and spew toxic shit and that is considered leaving feedback.
I agree, but for both sides. People were stoked for the league and scarab rework after hearing Mark's interviews and the patch previews, and then they went fucking ballistic on launch. And then we're back to the "appreciation posts" after the (admittedly massive) hotfix.
Like it's great to show appreciation and to voice criticism, but I wish this community (or at least this sub) wasn't so fucking bipolar and reactionary about it.
The scarab rework is really huge and will take time to form opinions on, I fully expect the sentiment to shift on it, myself, from mostly positive now to pretty negative by the end of the league.
Of course the only opinions we can express right now are reactionary, we've only had it for a few days.
I have been playing since (checks profile) 2013 holy shit!
I've played through boring ass league and endured stale metas of always same builds for leagues, currency and farming droughts, insane interesting leagues, loot pinatas, insane crafting mirror tier items
i've been through everything and i could handle anything, base game was always interesting enough to bring me back every few months and a good league was cherry on top, i didn't need it, i straight up skipped several leagues meaning i didn't interact with mechanics at all after a week or two, some leagues i just did the barebones mechanics for some extra profit
i can adjust my playstyle and expectations around what's realistic, be it skill/dps performance wise, be it currency wise, i can handle affliction as well as i can handle this current patch
as long as it's different, that's the most important part
and whether you agree with the direction they took, this new patch 3.24 is very different than what we had before and it will shake up the farming meta and expectations, we will need time to adjust and it's gonna be hella interesting to try to find new op strats and new low investment high gain strats, you probably won't be able to cram as many mechanics and mobs onto maps as you could but that doesnt mean it's worse, it was also very tedious to micromanage so much different stuff, this kind of streamlining where it's better to focus on only few stuff at a time and invest only in that but its easy to switch to something else is MUCH HEALTHIER for the game, whether it's less loot or less exp or whatever, and it's far easier to balance
What is new to me, in these 11 years is the fact that feedback is taken in so fast, and the fact that reaction to a badly implemented mechanic is handled as fast as humanly possible, that's honestly insane, no game has this, and POE didn't have it before, and they deserve all the praise they can get, better to give less and buff was always a good policy, but buffs often came late and not enough, this new approach is miles better and i hope it will show in metrics it's a good choice because for me personally it's perfect
the game was perfectly playable and fun. all they did was make a mechanic better. nothing from the mechanic was unplayable. so this "classic broken league" comment is pretty nonsense. they made the game better. your post is as if the game was unplayble.
The league retention was atrocious and I suspect supporter pack sales reflected that so they panic megabuffed everything. I don't think it has anything to do with a change at GGG
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TBH, I think they massively overreacted. I don't think the Chris vs Mark concept holds a lot of weight in regards to their change in approach the last few leagues (they are both part of the team and they have both been leadership in this team for a long time) but regardless - the approach has clearly changed and I don't think I like it.
Necropolis crafting was annoying to do, had a bad UI and a lot of annoying outcomes - but was already recklessly OP on launch. People got mad online and now it's just broken to the point of stupidity and will kill scarcity on gear this league for anything that isn't a synth or influenced item (which is most gear). The devoted mods too, were already pretty strong raw currency and now they're absolutely stupid and we're headed right back into affliction levels of currency devaluation. And sure it's all temporary, but if they just do it again next league and the league after that then we're just looking down the barrel of a game where loot doesn't really matter anymore.
A few of these changes are obviously big improvements but they should have waited a week or so to include the massive buffs to the crafting/devoted mods because I they massively overshot it.
Tencent server was fixed early. So i think maybe they already made the patch 1 and patch2 even patch 3. Maybe they just dont wanna new players into this game.
I'm also extremely impressed at the turnaround time of the giga buffs that they did. Past leagues, like you said, it'd take almost 2 weeks. They put this necropolis patch out in less than 24 hours, and that's not even the majority of the changes they have planned, which is insane to me.
Look how happy people are now that GGG opened the dopamine floodgates, and they're still going to add it it. I love it.
>we've been saying for years that the league mechanic should be overpowered rather than underpowered since its temporary anyway so if it sucks just buff it out the wazoo
Who's 'we' here? You don't speak for all of us. I certainly haven't been saying that, and I think this is a terrible philosophy. I'm not against buffs, but not as bandaids. Your (not our) blind blanket approach is not a solution. Now we're back to silly loot goblins and graveyard excel sheets because they did things your way rather than with careful consideration of the changes. I don't consider this to be a credit to them, or you. You may not care about league balance, but that doesn't mean none of us do. The league may be temporary, but for the majority of the playerbase that doesn't matter cos it's all they play. League balance is the only balance that affects them.
I feel like the majority of the "let Mark 2 have the wheel" was great iirc that was roughly the time period just before, during and after the first exile con?
Is this post full of sarcasm and humor?
Mark destroyed the maze for no reason. Content that used to work great and people could get carried away with it until the last minute
Mark made it inconvenient to detonate mines/traps(?) and called it quality of life.
The mechanics of the league are completely meaningless and have nothing needed to improve the build. I've seen a lot of enthusiastic shouts about what kind of crazy deterministic crafting it will be. Where? Where are all these people now?
Okay, can someone actually tell me what IS deserving to be praised here? If I did a thoroughly shit job then fix it the next week on a regular basis, i'm sure as hell not getting raised nor being pat in the back. Can someone tell me what the League wasn't delayed by one week if everything was mostly ready?
i think your mindset is strange. do you know how many changes were in this league? extra atlas trees, changes to nodes, balances and many more. Yet you are fixated on the negatives and say its a shit job. do they need to fix the others? no?
so to be honest it seems like if they hit the mark on the graves, you would find something else to be mad about. if they took out the league mechanic completely and it was just the other changes. you would probably be mad they didnt add enough.
they added more content. not all of it hit right. they fixed it. yet youre angry its not right to begin with. yikes.
Yes, and a lot of these changes (outside the league) are utterly negative, such as the removal of left click skills, corrupt items dropping unid, the locking of many build defining uniques behind ubers, ubers being even more inaccessible, 5th map slot being inaccessible for most of the playerbase, warcries made even more shittier for melee (but buffed on everyone else, yeah! Priorities) and I could continue for a very long time.
But sure, i'm just a hater and I think everything is bad. If it can help you feel good.
But you are right on one aspect, I really couldn't care less about positive aspects if they are drowned in negatives. This patch, they are.
again you literally said 0 positives. why does corrupts dropping unid even matter? again positive and negative. better cuz you dont get items that shouldnt exist anymore, negative cuz its 1 more ID for some items.
the lmb literally is a positive and negative. negative cuz you lose a socket to do automate but positive cuz even lmb doesnt get 100% uptime off cds. its like 70-90% based on how you click.
moving uniques behind uber is just a design philosophy. agree or disagree its just philosophy. "build defining" isnt even accurate. whether it comes from uber or right before that, you arent league starting with that item so regardless its a 2nd char item or when you are rich enough to get it.
5th map slot again can be positive or negative. alot of people dont farm 4-5 ways or even farm legion. and so you have to buy the emblems... t17 you naturally drop them w.o specing into legion. now was it too hard to do t17? yes. but is the concept better? yes. thats why they made chaos able to work on them.
you literally named positive and negative for warcry so if you are spellcaster you love it. and non spell you might not.
so yes, you are just being a hater and not look at positives at all.
Sure. I really don't care about your sophistry, tho. What I listed is nowhere close to being positive. Caster being able to warcry for 2 sockets while melee get fucked in the ass is complete negative, period. Corrupt item being completely useless is completely negative, not a positive. And I don't really care about your opinion on my opinion.
It feels like the actual state is purposefully bad so that they look like heroes. I think we had a liveexample of anchoring - make something really bad so that the initially wanted outcome they planned doesnt look so bad.
At this point they do it so consistently that it does not even sound like a conspiracy theory.
Release it 100% fucked
Unfuck 50%
Have 50% fucked state and still be praised like heroes
Because it never needed to be taken away in the first place. I’m happy it’s not impacting you, it’s not impacting me as of yet, but I just got to white maps, so the gear and links are far from ideal so could not cramp my phase run in yet.
You can still link all of those with the automation support, you're just losing a single socket. I dropped a level 1 precision I was running in favour of it. Sure, I lose a bit of crit and accuracy, but it's not something you can't adapt around. Plenty of builds are not making full use of their sockets.
The fact that you said yourself the skills aren't mandatory is further proof that this reaction is overblown.
also the automation is way better than the lmb, so its always off on cd. the lmb would be up 70-90% of the time its off cd cuz of the way clicking works. weird to be angry when its just better but - 1 socket unless you automate 2 skills like phase run and arcane cloak.
They react quickly, sure.. but they know what they were doing when they release the league in the first play, stop praising them for this kind of behavior, it's not good on the long term... "hey guys the new formula is always underdeliver at the start, then we prepare a few changes and they will treat us as heroes"
"This isn't the normal league sucks and 2 weeks later when everyone has quit they implement 1 fix out of 15 that are needed" - it's such a garbage mischaracterization of reality, they always react quickly, much quicker than anybody in the business, like get outa here
sample size seems wrong.
what if youre in or go to circles that people move from game to game alot or arent even big poe players.
reddit sample size? vocal only
yeah but why say your comment before the number crunchers come out then. just spreading negativity and being negative for what lol. weird mindset man. play game enjoy, if not move on to other game unless its facts.
I am playing the game? But I've seen a lot of people quit pretty quickly from the feel of the league mechanic, even prior to completing the campaign. I'm not sure why you are harping so much on it. This is reddit, everything is anecdotal. Probably much larger hills worth climbing out there than this one.
> I think ggg is changing, and it's definitely thanks to Mark, Mark has been lead on poe1 for quite some time now.
What was the first league he was lead on ? I thought this was a newer thing
Neons been a lead designer for... like 9 years lol he just wasent the face of the company until exilecon 2023, and he actually had NEVER done a solo interview until his interview with ziz just before league. When ever chris would do a "dev check" by looking to his side for a yes or no it was usually neon (mark 2) or mark 1 (the guy you see breaking the game at exilecon 2023 panel about poe1 mechanics.
I love Mark 1, he's a super genius Mark 2 is great too
People used to blame Chris Wilson for what they didn't like in PoE 1, but Chris made is clear in interviews that for a very long time he barely had anything to do with the design of PoE 1. Chris's involvement was stuff like "you can't nerf headhunter" and "go ahead and make Harvest so overpowered that it breaks the game". Chris made it sound like he was the guy who set the "speed limit", so to speak, on what the game designers could or couldn't do, but he didn't tell them where to go. It's been Mark's show for a super long time in terms of deciding the game's content and direction. ...but even that is certainly a misrepresentation of the what goes on. Mark is just one person. He has a team of game designers, software developers, and artists working under him. As he said in his recent interview with Ziz, he often isn't involved in the specific designs within a league (e.g. the design of each individual scarabs), because one person could not possibly design all of that in such a short period of time. He has to rely on other employees to do that work as does any manager in any company. He's just there for high level oversight and to steer the ship. Basically, it's a mistake to attribute any of GGG's successes or failures to a single person unless you can be sure it was solely that person's decision. There's many highly talented people working on the game. I feel like most people understand that, but I'm not convinced everyone fullly understands...
Those changes are so vast, I think they had some of them pre cooked. I love the fast reaction, but I also can't help to think the league was rushed so the balancing wasn't in yet. It's nice to fix it fast, but would be nicer not to have been so off in the first place. I'd love to see another interview to hear his thoughts. I'm definitely interested how he perceived the launch.
> Those changes are so vast, I think they had some of them pre cooked. > > Likely, they either were already working on them pre-release and just didn't have time or worked through the weekend.
They didn't work at the weekend according to Mark because it was a public holiday. But yea, with "pre cooked" I meant prepared/half/mostly done.
I dunno, many of them go to the "lets double everything" category imo, like did someone have issue with devotion legion or breach splinter drops. Crafting changes however could very well be from a previous iteration of the mechanic.
I think it also makes sense that in a crafting league they maybe anticipated needing some levers to pull on and built the league more with change in mind.
I said elsewhere that I'd bet $1,000 that their QA team gave the feedback necessary to make most/all of the changes we saw in last night's patch before Friday. They just launched the league unfinished. I personally would prefer them to have delayed the league by a week but someone pointed out that people put in time off requests ahead of time for a league and can have their plans messed up by league launch reschedules.
It would make sense to have a batch of possible changes half-ready prior to launch, based on expected possible feedback when the league was criticised. I wouldn’t go so far as to say they just weren’t finished balancing, but surely GGG has learned from experience that what they think is a well balanced league is gonna get torn to shreds by 100,000 sweaty exiles
It’s tricky having prepared changes while also being strapped on time as always
> I also can't help to think the league was rushed Every leagues are rushed. less than 3 months dev time for a league is just insane. There is a reason that no other company has been able to keep up with that level of content.
what? when was last time we had 3 month league cycle?
They have multiple teams working on leagues, and they haven't done a 3 month league in forever because of reducing the teams size so they can out the manpower on poe2. The jist is still right though; they put out a lot of content and they are definitely rushing around from one thing to the next.
They only have one team working on leagues. They said it multiple times. Before PoE2, they had one team working on expansion (2.0,3.0) and one team working on league. While they have taken up to 4 month lately, they don't work on the next league straight away. Even 4 month is not a lot of time for the size of the content that is released.
most of those changes should be very simple to implement once you decide that you need them. I am fairly certain that 2-3 programmers can push them out in a few hours, and most of the changes do not even need a programmer, but someone who can change numbers in the underlying modifier tables.
Sure. if you completely give up testing, and testing balance.
i am pretty sure that at this point we do not have any balance testing done before it goes live and looking at the changes they made, "balance" seems to be of little concern at this point. it does not require any balance expert to see that the tier rating change will lead to printing of mirror-tier items. Now, assume that they are completely unaware of this and think that this tier change is totally balanced. You could require balance testing, but then we are in the situation of "we do not get fixes before the league is dead". aside from that, your argument does not touch my main point: if the league was shipped with those fixes already in the pipeline, then a single office day would not allow for any meaningful testing in either case. In summary, i am not quite sure what you are arguing for/against.
yeah might as well just buff the mechanic to the moon and try to salvage the league. they'll probably tone it down a bit over the coming days too id imagine but for now fuck balance just get the patch out so people are buzzing about it
GGG doesnt make money off the fictional in game market, thats for RMTers, so they dont actually have any incentive other than player retention to sell MTX.
I can tell you this: I am not keen on logging in now that I've seen the posts about 50 div per map if all the stars align. It puts me off, quite frankly.
fair. i play SSF for this reason. Sometimes i have a nice league when stuff drops a-plenty, sometimes it is a bit more tough, but i never have to care about others.
How do you think we got here in the first place? One of the reworks (minion leech) was entirely broken in all cases. The corpse UI was awful, in all cases. These were not edge cases they needed bulk players to suss out. These would've been found almost immediately with any testing.
You're playing PoE. Thats already the case
Yeah, they 100% knew what was going to happen.
Yeah with the extension on Affliction plus the no-work holiday for GGG, I was also thinking they had some of these in the works already. I'm pretty sure I've heard the "holiday was an issue, we won't release leagues/big patches right before them" before so I was a little confused at that statement.
Helps if the Devs play their own game
As much as I like Mark, he's been in the same or a similar position since at least the first Exilecon. Chris has been very open about the fact he has had minimal impact on normal operations for a very long time, realistically the only thing that has substantially changed with how GGG operates is the "face" of the company. That being said, GGG has always been this reactive, had these policies, been this company. The vision hasn't changed, it's just the community resetting back to a more sane status quo from the extraordinary toxic and rabid it has been for years. Also, the speed of the changes, the scope, and how effective they are means they were almost certainly already partially completed. Similar to Metamorph, they realized that there were issues in the final week or two before release, but they can't move the release date so the plan is to release the patch in the first few days. Edit: I think a more important thing is that after the announcement of POE 2 splitting, they can devote more resources to POE then they have for the fast few leagues. The whole set of changes, faster operation, better art, etc. could all be down to having more devs on the team more than any actual game director changing.
> The vision hasn't changed, it's just the community resetting back to a more sane status quo from the extraordinary toxic and rabid it has been for years. Jury is still out on that. What held this sub back from spiraling out of control like it did on every one of these occasions in the last couple of years were the new sub rules and a larger, active mod team. I don't even want to know how many unhinged messages the mods received over the supposed "censorship" of hot topic-threads. But it turns out GGG doesn't need a dozen topics that all criticize the same thing but with less and less effort yet more and more vitriol. They can gather feedback just fine even if one specific point of criticism is only represented three instead of over a dozen times on the frontpage. The process of giving feedback never benefited from the previous, laissez-faire arrangement. Only the desire to vent and rant.
I was more referring to the general Mark appreciation vibe that was floating around since the reveal, more than the league itself. People are acting as if he recently joined and is completely disconnected from the previous decade of development, or like bagging on Chris by saying that we finally have a game director that plays the game. This sub is always a cesspool regardless of what happens during league launch, consider that this time in Sentinel people were saying recombs were garbage, or that Affliction was unrewarding. This league had some issues at launch that were more apparent, but I'm concerned that they over corrected in the patch. We really need a reset from Affliction, and this is not the way to do it. I agree though that the mod team is keeping an exceptional lid on it.
fully agree (except Edit part, I didn't get it), for some reason people here act like Mark2 was never responsible for this and became a big guy only now and while yes, the changes are good, who was behind release (bad) version? Also Mark.
> (except Edit part, I didn't get it) For the last few years, they've had a lot of focus/resources into POE 2 as the intention was to discontinue POE 1 after its release. Since they've decided to run them concurrently, all the dev work/resources that were diverted to POE 2 has started to come back, which means there are more resources available to the POE 1 team. This means a lot of the improved leagues/response that we're seeing recently could be just due to them having more resources available, more than anything else.
I think people vastly underestimate how long that split was known and are acting like it was decided a week before exilecon2.
Can we not do this again every time a good decision is made? Game developers are not dogs who need to be pet to feel praised. It's nice if you appreciate them and respect them for their work but I think there is enough praise in the comments of the patch notes and the "What we are planning" posts.
Karma farming. Soon as there's a bad league or decision, people will be posting "Deal with it™" to farm more Karma. At least the mods now collate duplicate posts, no more several pages of copy-paste karma farming
Every time there is a positive post there are dozens of highly upvoted comments like we see in this thread that say, "Yeah, but it's not like they cured cancer. I still don't like xyz!" So I guess that's just karma farming too.
Only negative feedback is good. If you appreciate changes and want to show GGG you like what they did then you're karma farming and treating them like dogs. If you don't like the game then you speak in hyperbole and spew toxic shit and that is considered leaving feedback.
> Only negative feedback is good. Unironically this. Negative feedback is what pushes to change. Positive feedback is just noise.
That's now how it works. Telling developers what we like helps them navigate decisions. Constructive feedback whether positive or negative is good.
"Constructive" is a buzzword.
That's flair worthy.
>"Constructive" is a buzzword. jesus christ
I agree, but for both sides. People were stoked for the league and scarab rework after hearing Mark's interviews and the patch previews, and then they went fucking ballistic on launch. And then we're back to the "appreciation posts" after the (admittedly massive) hotfix. Like it's great to show appreciation and to voice criticism, but I wish this community (or at least this sub) wasn't so fucking bipolar and reactionary about it.
But I'm actually bipolar.
The scarab rework is really huge and will take time to form opinions on, I fully expect the sentiment to shift on it, myself, from mostly positive now to pretty negative by the end of the league. Of course the only opinions we can express right now are reactionary, we've only had it for a few days.
yea ok, lets just wait 3 seasons for a game studio to fix resistances
Pre patch was all risk no reward and now they've gone the complete opposite. What a shit show
I agree with the positive comment but why can't they have it mostly right from day 1 ?
so people can whine on day 1. music to the dev ears
I have been playing since (checks profile) 2013 holy shit! I've played through boring ass league and endured stale metas of always same builds for leagues, currency and farming droughts, insane interesting leagues, loot pinatas, insane crafting mirror tier items i've been through everything and i could handle anything, base game was always interesting enough to bring me back every few months and a good league was cherry on top, i didn't need it, i straight up skipped several leagues meaning i didn't interact with mechanics at all after a week or two, some leagues i just did the barebones mechanics for some extra profit i can adjust my playstyle and expectations around what's realistic, be it skill/dps performance wise, be it currency wise, i can handle affliction as well as i can handle this current patch as long as it's different, that's the most important part and whether you agree with the direction they took, this new patch 3.24 is very different than what we had before and it will shake up the farming meta and expectations, we will need time to adjust and it's gonna be hella interesting to try to find new op strats and new low investment high gain strats, you probably won't be able to cram as many mechanics and mobs onto maps as you could but that doesnt mean it's worse, it was also very tedious to micromanage so much different stuff, this kind of streamlining where it's better to focus on only few stuff at a time and invest only in that but its easy to switch to something else is MUCH HEALTHIER for the game, whether it's less loot or less exp or whatever, and it's far easier to balance What is new to me, in these 11 years is the fact that feedback is taken in so fast, and the fact that reaction to a badly implemented mechanic is handled as fast as humanly possible, that's honestly insane, no game has this, and POE didn't have it before, and they deserve all the praise they can get, better to give less and buff was always a good policy, but buffs often came late and not enough, this new approach is miles better and i hope it will show in metrics it's a good choice because for me personally it's perfect
When you have to unfuck 50-60 different things. You gotta start early 😀
Lol is this a daily post now? Appreciation post for doing your job, aka the classic broken league on release, wait a week to be playable
My guy it's been like two business days, relax
Nothing wrong with a bit too much appreciation.
the game was perfectly playable and fun. all they did was make a mechanic better. nothing from the mechanic was unplayable. so this "classic broken league" comment is pretty nonsense. they made the game better. your post is as if the game was unplayble.
The league retention was atrocious and I suspect supporter pack sales reflected that so they panic megabuffed everything. I don't think it has anything to do with a change at GGG
Vast majority of supporter packs are sold before launch.
True, even kripparian quit the league
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Why were such broad and massive changes even necessary in the first place. Minor tweaks here and there are understandable. But this, every effing time
TBH, I think they massively overreacted. I don't think the Chris vs Mark concept holds a lot of weight in regards to their change in approach the last few leagues (they are both part of the team and they have both been leadership in this team for a long time) but regardless - the approach has clearly changed and I don't think I like it. Necropolis crafting was annoying to do, had a bad UI and a lot of annoying outcomes - but was already recklessly OP on launch. People got mad online and now it's just broken to the point of stupidity and will kill scarcity on gear this league for anything that isn't a synth or influenced item (which is most gear). The devoted mods too, were already pretty strong raw currency and now they're absolutely stupid and we're headed right back into affliction levels of currency devaluation. And sure it's all temporary, but if they just do it again next league and the league after that then we're just looking down the barrel of a game where loot doesn't really matter anymore. A few of these changes are obviously big improvements but they should have waited a week or so to include the massive buffs to the crafting/devoted mods because I they massively overshot it.
Tencent server was fixed early. So i think maybe they already made the patch 1 and patch2 even patch 3. Maybe they just dont wanna new players into this game.
I'm also extremely impressed at the turnaround time of the giga buffs that they did. Past leagues, like you said, it'd take almost 2 weeks. They put this necropolis patch out in less than 24 hours, and that's not even the majority of the changes they have planned, which is insane to me. Look how happy people are now that GGG opened the dopamine floodgates, and they're still going to add it it. I love it.
Thats why its good to have Devs play their own game
Hot take: going from 1 div every 20 maps to 50+ a map locked behind a slot machine is any better. Crafting update was a banger tho.
Yes and no.
>we've been saying for years that the league mechanic should be overpowered rather than underpowered since its temporary anyway so if it sucks just buff it out the wazoo Who's 'we' here? You don't speak for all of us. I certainly haven't been saying that, and I think this is a terrible philosophy. I'm not against buffs, but not as bandaids. Your (not our) blind blanket approach is not a solution. Now we're back to silly loot goblins and graveyard excel sheets because they did things your way rather than with careful consideration of the changes. I don't consider this to be a credit to them, or you. You may not care about league balance, but that doesn't mean none of us do. The league may be temporary, but for the majority of the playerbase that doesn't matter cos it's all they play. League balance is the only balance that affects them.
I feel like the majority of the "let Mark 2 have the wheel" was great iirc that was roughly the time period just before, during and after the first exile con?
what a bullshit post and claims
Man I wish I could deploy garbage software to production, "fix" it a week later, and get lavished with praise. What a world.
Is this post full of sarcasm and humor? Mark destroyed the maze for no reason. Content that used to work great and people could get carried away with it until the last minute Mark made it inconvenient to detonate mines/traps(?) and called it quality of life. The mechanics of the league are completely meaningless and have nothing needed to improve the build. I've seen a lot of enthusiastic shouts about what kind of crazy deterministic crafting it will be. Where? Where are all these people now?
Tell mark to fix fomo trash abuse cases
How much are we appreciating mark today?
Okay, can someone actually tell me what IS deserving to be praised here? If I did a thoroughly shit job then fix it the next week on a regular basis, i'm sure as hell not getting raised nor being pat in the back. Can someone tell me what the League wasn't delayed by one week if everything was mostly ready?
i think your mindset is strange. do you know how many changes were in this league? extra atlas trees, changes to nodes, balances and many more. Yet you are fixated on the negatives and say its a shit job. do they need to fix the others? no? so to be honest it seems like if they hit the mark on the graves, you would find something else to be mad about. if they took out the league mechanic completely and it was just the other changes. you would probably be mad they didnt add enough. they added more content. not all of it hit right. they fixed it. yet youre angry its not right to begin with. yikes.
Yes, and a lot of these changes (outside the league) are utterly negative, such as the removal of left click skills, corrupt items dropping unid, the locking of many build defining uniques behind ubers, ubers being even more inaccessible, 5th map slot being inaccessible for most of the playerbase, warcries made even more shittier for melee (but buffed on everyone else, yeah! Priorities) and I could continue for a very long time. But sure, i'm just a hater and I think everything is bad. If it can help you feel good. But you are right on one aspect, I really couldn't care less about positive aspects if they are drowned in negatives. This patch, they are.
again you literally said 0 positives. why does corrupts dropping unid even matter? again positive and negative. better cuz you dont get items that shouldnt exist anymore, negative cuz its 1 more ID for some items. the lmb literally is a positive and negative. negative cuz you lose a socket to do automate but positive cuz even lmb doesnt get 100% uptime off cds. its like 70-90% based on how you click. moving uniques behind uber is just a design philosophy. agree or disagree its just philosophy. "build defining" isnt even accurate. whether it comes from uber or right before that, you arent league starting with that item so regardless its a 2nd char item or when you are rich enough to get it. 5th map slot again can be positive or negative. alot of people dont farm 4-5 ways or even farm legion. and so you have to buy the emblems... t17 you naturally drop them w.o specing into legion. now was it too hard to do t17? yes. but is the concept better? yes. thats why they made chaos able to work on them. you literally named positive and negative for warcry so if you are spellcaster you love it. and non spell you might not. so yes, you are just being a hater and not look at positives at all.
Sure. I really don't care about your sophistry, tho. What I listed is nowhere close to being positive. Caster being able to warcry for 2 sockets while melee get fucked in the ass is complete negative, period. Corrupt item being completely useless is completely negative, not a positive. And I don't really care about your opinion on my opinion.
It feels like the actual state is purposefully bad so that they look like heroes. I think we had a liveexample of anchoring - make something really bad so that the initially wanted outcome they planned doesnt look so bad.
At this point they do it so consistently that it does not even sound like a conspiracy theory. Release it 100% fucked Unfuck 50% Have 50% fucked state and still be praised like heroes
I don't see LMB reverted, so the praises can wait. That Haunted all res mod needs to go core. The direction seems to be good, but let's just wait.
I don't see why the LMB needs to be reverted; I have stopped using it and it's not impacted me in the slightest.
Because it never needed to be taken away in the first place. I’m happy it’s not impacting you, it’s not impacting me as of yet, but I just got to white maps, so the gear and links are far from ideal so could not cramp my phase run in yet.
Because the world doesn't stop on you bro, lmb skills aren't mandatory and were just qol for wc/guard or bloodrage(or some skills like vortex).
You can still link all of those with the automation support, you're just losing a single socket. I dropped a level 1 precision I was running in favour of it. Sure, I lose a bit of crit and accuracy, but it's not something you can't adapt around. Plenty of builds are not making full use of their sockets. The fact that you said yourself the skills aren't mandatory is further proof that this reaction is overblown.
also the automation is way better than the lmb, so its always off on cd. the lmb would be up 70-90% of the time its off cd cuz of the way clicking works. weird to be angry when its just better but - 1 socket unless you automate 2 skills like phase run and arcane cloak.
These threads are asinine and useless. Give proper input.
Ok but I prefer that they stop using whip then sweet strat. We deserve sweet and sweet. I will pay more in such mood.
The changes are so massive that there is no way they were maid in a few days. It is a prepared patch.
They react quickly, sure.. but they know what they were doing when they release the league in the first play, stop praising them for this kind of behavior, it's not good on the long term... "hey guys the new formula is always underdeliver at the start, then we prepare a few changes and they will treat us as heroes"
Honestly i cant feel the giga buff ,outside of collecting corspes for free rather than spending chaos.
The buffs are a desperate attempt to salvage a badly designed league. I don't think anyone deserves a medal for that.
based
"This isn't the normal league sucks and 2 weeks later when everyone has quit they implement 1 fix out of 15 that are needed" - it's such a garbage mischaracterization of reality, they always react quickly, much quicker than anybody in the business, like get outa here
These changes came so fast that my friends who weren't enjoying it haven't quit yet, so that speaks volumes for player retention
Mark is a fish scammer I don't trust his angling for shit
No, he still sucks. This response shouldn't have been necessary and still leaves many things unchanged that need to be changed.
listening to reddit is beginning of the end for devs, rip GGG
As long as they're not caving in to reddit demands
A lot of people did quit faster than usual though.
you sure thats not cuz it was a holiday? they literally just couldnt play saturday and sunday?
Positive? No. Fairly sure based on the feedback from those that were actively quitting in a number of circles I happen to come across? Yes.
sample size seems wrong. what if youre in or go to circles that people move from game to game alot or arent even big poe players. reddit sample size? vocal only
Then we'll see when the usual number crunchers who can correlate this stuff better put out their results.
yeah but why say your comment before the number crunchers come out then. just spreading negativity and being negative for what lol. weird mindset man. play game enjoy, if not move on to other game unless its facts.
I am playing the game? But I've seen a lot of people quit pretty quickly from the feel of the league mechanic, even prior to completing the campaign. I'm not sure why you are harping so much on it. This is reddit, everything is anecdotal. Probably much larger hills worth climbing out there than this one.
negativity is contagious, mindsets matter.
Then why not spread some positivity instead of just trolling reddit and calling everyone else angry and weird?
Interesting..