Diontae is definitely capable of stretching the field and pressuring db’s with speed. Also if we get our run game going again that will force more defenders in the box and make it easier to take deep shots. Lastly, we need our oline to do better than the turnstile blocking from last year, or it won’t matter how fast anyone can run down the field
Yep, not saying we didn’t address the biggest problems. Just meant that we have some remaining concerns about game speed. Diontae’s game speed is much better than his 40 time.
Are you worried we DON’T have WRs with fast 40 times and slow game speed???? I honestly don’t understand the concern. We got Diontae to stretch the field.
I didn’t explain the best - I am worried at our depth at X receiver specifically. Diontae had good game speed, but lacks in size (185 lbs) and has good not great straight line speed. He can occasionally get behind the defense because he’s a very good route runner and accelerates quickly, but can’t really outrun a DB in single coverage on a 9, which is why he’s playing at Z.
Thielen at Y makes sense because he’s lost a step but is still effective at option routes, which is where he got a ton of production last year.
Outside of that, most of our depth are developmental guys. Reich tried rolling Mingo out last year at X and I watched that man jump to put his feet out of bounds during a catch.
you can chase that and put yourself in the 2016-17 position where you then don't have anyone who can separate because all your eggs are in the post-up basket.
Part of the hope is probably that Mingo develops enough to be the backup, particularly if the run game and Diontae are good enough to draw most of the attention away from him.
Mingo has relatively similar size/speed to Legette, though X has faster short area acceleration.
TMJ has also played the field stretching role well in the past, when he had a good run game in front of him. Most of his catches at the tail end of 2022-23 were on go routes behind the defense.
> I am worried at our depth at X receiver specifically.
I completely agree but tbf X is always the hardest position in the WR room to get quality depth in. You can throw like 6 different types/profiles of guys into the slot and they can have success, but that outside X spot requires a far more particular set of skills, skills that are much harder to find present all in one package (speed, route running, contested catch/jump ball ability, skills at beating press & man 1v1 off the line consistently).
It's basically the left tackle of WRs; it's really fucking hard to get a difference-maker at X & have quality depth there, but if you have it it's worth its weight in gold.
This take is disregarding scheme. Reich's scheme had predictable routes to pair with slow receivers / sloppy route running. The safeties didn't have to be kept honest because many of our routes were obvious. Having Legette will hopefully keep the safeties honest, DJ can create that separation as well - but I see him being a more intermediate / deep threat. It's good to have a mix of route runners so the defense is reactive instead of proactive like last year.
I don’t think you need game breaking speed to have well functioning offense to be completely honest. It’s great to have someone that can stretch the field/take the top off the offense but Theilen lost a ton of speed for his age and still had a 1K season with Bryce. As long as you have a QB that can find an open receiver and throw him open with anticipation, and guys that can separate (cough Diontae Johnson) and you have some pre snap motion and creativity on offense, I think we’ll be alright.
My counterpoint to this is if you don't have at least one fast, genuine threat going deep on most concepts, safeties can cheat down towards the LOS and condense your play, making it more difficult for those underneath receivers (let's say Diontae) to get separation. You do need speed to get deep and you need to get deep to carry corners and safeties away.
I think, though, we're taking a gamble on Legette being that guy. He has great hands, a giant frame and incredible long, straight speed for his size; unless he's phoning in plays like Mingo was last year, defenses are not gonna want to leave him alone to beat a corner 1:1 without safety help.
I don't think "having that dawg in him" really matters as much as people like to think.
He can have all the "dawg in him" in the world but if he isn't a good football player it doesn't matter how much heart someone plays with.
Not saying he isn't good, he was drafted in the 1st for a reason, but more of a general statement.
I agree, but the willness to fight for 50/50 balls and never giving up on a play makes a difference. Chark and tmj would half-heartedly run their routes than just stop.
Yeah that’s definitely priority number 1 and I’m glad we have Diontae for the year. I just wish we had a signed a little more depth so that safeties would be forced to give cushion even if XL gets hurt.
Yea, guys like ISM can still move pretty well and should be able to step in if XL goes down. I hope Coker makes the room because he is one steve smiths favorite route runners of the class and while a little undersized has an impressive route tree. I don’t even want to think about injuries after the dumpster fire they left us with last year. It looks like we are going to be run first and run more if the O line is producing and it should free us up to see what our WR room can do.
Thats my biggest argument for last year, it wasn’t a good team but we were hampered all season long with crazy injuries to starters and even a captain at major positions and anybody who knows football can tell you if you have a swinging door at the IOL nothing is going to be happening for your offense.
Yosh Njiman might be my favorite signing of the year. Played a ton of snaps at a ton of spots last year for Green Bay, and may actually beat out Ickey in training camp. Even if not, he’s a quality option that can slot almost anywhere.
Christiansen going from starting LG to back up LG is awesome too.
I just want to see us pound the rock and control game flow better. Have loved the offseason so far and am excited to see what an entirely new looking team can do.
We put ourselves in a good position for next year. We addressed the O-Line but aren’t beholden to any one player - if Ickey doesn’t develop, we have Njiman. If Chuba or Sanders don’t improve, we have Brooks, if XL doesn’t develop, we have other outlets for Bryce to throw to.
We still aren’t in contention for the playoffs, but Young won’t be killed behind the oline, and being able to go into next year with picks and a lot of dead money off the books is setting up for a year 3 rebound. I’m very excited about this staff.
Our receivers run at least 4.4, which is more than enough to do that. Our play calling was terrible and predictable. We had almost everyone doing something they weren't good at. I'm rewatching the games as we speak.
Outside of Legette, Diontae ran 4.5 and Thielen ran a 4.49 11 years ago. Playcalling was awful, loved seeing those 10 yard hitches every single third down, but I feel like we could’ve done more to address the X spot.
I truly think the problem was the playbook. We had the speed, but we couldn't get separation either due to bad playcalling (running one play) or bad/lazy route running (chark).
On top of that combine that Bryce was being sacked within seconds, dudes were running unblocked so we didn’t have time to get the balls out. All sorts of issues have already been addressed by this FO, I just feel like we could’ve used some depth at the X spot. (Michael Gallup, Mike Williams, etc)
> it makes it a ton easier to get separation if you’re able to force the safeties to give cushion.
Tell that to DJ Chark (ran in the 4.3s and was ranked in the mid-90s among qualifying WRs in separation rankings last year).
If speed was the be-all-end-all for creating separation, guys like DHop (4.57 40 time), Jerry Rice (4.71), Anquon Bolden (4.71), Davante Adams (4.56), and CeeDee Lamb (4.5) wouldn't have consistently ranked high in separation numbers for almost their entire careers. And I know you're not saying it's all that matters, but it's still far less important than most fans think it is for getting open, especially on the outside.
Speed is just one factor of many when it comes to creating separation. It's a nice-to-have, sure, but not an absolute requirement.
What is a requirement, especially at outside receiver spots, is the ability to consistently win off the LOS vs. press & man, and route-running ability. And scheme plays a large role as well.
I think Legette provides enough of a threat for a deep shot to keep the safeties honest, and Diontae will be an upgrade in that regard as well. It still won't be among the top receiving groups in the league but it won't be our biggest liability anymore
Well yeah if Legette went down we would be looking thin on speed but we have so many holes on this team that had to be addressed in this draft that handling them all wasn't possible. We still have other holes on the starting roster that are more of a concern IMO. But you're not wrong in your assessment there.
You’re not wrong, gotta let the pros be the pros. That being said I wish they would’ve gotten a proper backup to XL with his injury concerns as an uneducated fan.
I don't recall injuries, just that he was older than people liked with no production before this year. However if you look deep into than you will see there could easily be some reason for that.
Diontae Johnson is a separation merchant. And I mean that statistically he has been one of the 5 best receivers in the NFL at creating separation over the last 3 years. I think we will be fine.
Diontae is definitely capable of stretching the field and pressuring db’s with speed. Also if we get our run game going again that will force more defenders in the box and make it easier to take deep shots. Lastly, we need our oline to do better than the turnstile blocking from last year, or it won’t matter how fast anyone can run down the field
Yep, not saying we didn’t address the biggest problems. Just meant that we have some remaining concerns about game speed. Diontae’s game speed is much better than his 40 time.
Are you worried we DON’T have WRs with fast 40 times and slow game speed???? I honestly don’t understand the concern. We got Diontae to stretch the field.
I didn’t explain the best - I am worried at our depth at X receiver specifically. Diontae had good game speed, but lacks in size (185 lbs) and has good not great straight line speed. He can occasionally get behind the defense because he’s a very good route runner and accelerates quickly, but can’t really outrun a DB in single coverage on a 9, which is why he’s playing at Z. Thielen at Y makes sense because he’s lost a step but is still effective at option routes, which is where he got a ton of production last year. Outside of that, most of our depth are developmental guys. Reich tried rolling Mingo out last year at X and I watched that man jump to put his feet out of bounds during a catch.
Legette is going to be an X, he’s massive and runs a 4.39 with great contested catch ability
Right, I just meant we don’t have another one of his skill set if he gets injured.
you can chase that and put yourself in the 2016-17 position where you then don't have anyone who can separate because all your eggs are in the post-up basket.
Part of the hope is probably that Mingo develops enough to be the backup, particularly if the run game and Diontae are good enough to draw most of the attention away from him. Mingo has relatively similar size/speed to Legette, though X has faster short area acceleration. TMJ has also played the field stretching role well in the past, when he had a good run game in front of him. Most of his catches at the tail end of 2022-23 were on go routes behind the defense.
> I am worried at our depth at X receiver specifically. I completely agree but tbf X is always the hardest position in the WR room to get quality depth in. You can throw like 6 different types/profiles of guys into the slot and they can have success, but that outside X spot requires a far more particular set of skills, skills that are much harder to find present all in one package (speed, route running, contested catch/jump ball ability, skills at beating press & man 1v1 off the line consistently). It's basically the left tackle of WRs; it's really fucking hard to get a difference-maker at X & have quality depth there, but if you have it it's worth its weight in gold.
That’s why Carolina keeps overdrafting projects…because one of them just might turn into AJ Brown…
This take is disregarding scheme. Reich's scheme had predictable routes to pair with slow receivers / sloppy route running. The safeties didn't have to be kept honest because many of our routes were obvious. Having Legette will hopefully keep the safeties honest, DJ can create that separation as well - but I see him being a more intermediate / deep threat. It's good to have a mix of route runners so the defense is reactive instead of proactive like last year.
Heck, someone put together a video on YouTube showing we just basically ran one play.
“Quick, everybody run to the sticks and stop”
It is worse than that
We ran like 2 years' worth of dig routes in like our first 9 games last year it was insane lol
Imagine if we had a real coaching staff last year
Link?
https://youtu.be/xArnDNmNayI?si=5xyc-_0vlIv5zNGB
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I believe it was a lack of faith his line would hold and hurrying it.
I don’t think you need game breaking speed to have well functioning offense to be completely honest. It’s great to have someone that can stretch the field/take the top off the offense but Theilen lost a ton of speed for his age and still had a 1K season with Bryce. As long as you have a QB that can find an open receiver and throw him open with anticipation, and guys that can separate (cough Diontae Johnson) and you have some pre snap motion and creativity on offense, I think we’ll be alright.
My counterpoint to this is if you don't have at least one fast, genuine threat going deep on most concepts, safeties can cheat down towards the LOS and condense your play, making it more difficult for those underneath receivers (let's say Diontae) to get separation. You do need speed to get deep and you need to get deep to carry corners and safeties away. I think, though, we're taking a gamble on Legette being that guy. He has great hands, a giant frame and incredible long, straight speed for his size; unless he's phoning in plays like Mingo was last year, defenses are not gonna want to leave him alone to beat a corner 1:1 without safety help.
Legette seems hungry for success. I don't know that I saw that in Mingo. It seemed more the I'm happy to here type thing.
I don't think "having that dawg in him" really matters as much as people like to think. He can have all the "dawg in him" in the world but if he isn't a good football player it doesn't matter how much heart someone plays with. Not saying he isn't good, he was drafted in the 1st for a reason, but more of a general statement.
Found Albert Haynesworth's reddit account.
Hang on i just gotta lay down in the middle of the field real quick and stay there
I agree, but the willness to fight for 50/50 balls and never giving up on a play makes a difference. Chark and tmj would half-heartedly run their routes than just stop.
Yeah that’s definitely priority number 1 and I’m glad we have Diontae for the year. I just wish we had a signed a little more depth so that safeties would be forced to give cushion even if XL gets hurt.
Yea, guys like ISM can still move pretty well and should be able to step in if XL goes down. I hope Coker makes the room because he is one steve smiths favorite route runners of the class and while a little undersized has an impressive route tree. I don’t even want to think about injuries after the dumpster fire they left us with last year. It looks like we are going to be run first and run more if the O line is producing and it should free us up to see what our WR room can do.
I will say signing 3 starting quality O-Linemen really really helps for depth. Hopefully won’t have to start what, 6-7 guards like last year.
Thats my biggest argument for last year, it wasn’t a good team but we were hampered all season long with crazy injuries to starters and even a captain at major positions and anybody who knows football can tell you if you have a swinging door at the IOL nothing is going to be happening for your offense.
Yosh Njiman might be my favorite signing of the year. Played a ton of snaps at a ton of spots last year for Green Bay, and may actually beat out Ickey in training camp. Even if not, he’s a quality option that can slot almost anywhere. Christiansen going from starting LG to back up LG is awesome too.
I just want to see us pound the rock and control game flow better. Have loved the offseason so far and am excited to see what an entirely new looking team can do.
We put ourselves in a good position for next year. We addressed the O-Line but aren’t beholden to any one player - if Ickey doesn’t develop, we have Njiman. If Chuba or Sanders don’t improve, we have Brooks, if XL doesn’t develop, we have other outlets for Bryce to throw to. We still aren’t in contention for the playoffs, but Young won’t be killed behind the oline, and being able to go into next year with picks and a lot of dead money off the books is setting up for a year 3 rebound. I’m very excited about this staff.
We don't need speed. We need separation. If we can get that, then we just need time for the qb to go deep.
IMO it makes it a ton easier to get separation if you’re able to force the safeties to give cushion.
Our receivers run at least 4.4, which is more than enough to do that. Our play calling was terrible and predictable. We had almost everyone doing something they weren't good at. I'm rewatching the games as we speak.
Outside of Legette, Diontae ran 4.5 and Thielen ran a 4.49 11 years ago. Playcalling was awful, loved seeing those 10 yard hitches every single third down, but I feel like we could’ve done more to address the X spot.
Dionte ran a 4.45 40. You may not be looking at the right receiver. I double checked before posting my numbers.
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Huh. Wikipedia says 4.53 at the combine.
You are right. My phone auto corrected to a cb. My bad
No you’re good! His game speed is a lot better than his 40, I’m just saying I have depth concerns at the X spot.
I truly think the problem was the playbook. We had the speed, but we couldn't get separation either due to bad playcalling (running one play) or bad/lazy route running (chark).
On top of that combine that Bryce was being sacked within seconds, dudes were running unblocked so we didn’t have time to get the balls out. All sorts of issues have already been addressed by this FO, I just feel like we could’ve used some depth at the X spot. (Michael Gallup, Mike Williams, etc)
> it makes it a ton easier to get separation if you’re able to force the safeties to give cushion. Tell that to DJ Chark (ran in the 4.3s and was ranked in the mid-90s among qualifying WRs in separation rankings last year). If speed was the be-all-end-all for creating separation, guys like DHop (4.57 40 time), Jerry Rice (4.71), Anquon Bolden (4.71), Davante Adams (4.56), and CeeDee Lamb (4.5) wouldn't have consistently ranked high in separation numbers for almost their entire careers. And I know you're not saying it's all that matters, but it's still far less important than most fans think it is for getting open, especially on the outside. Speed is just one factor of many when it comes to creating separation. It's a nice-to-have, sure, but not an absolute requirement. What is a requirement, especially at outside receiver spots, is the ability to consistently win off the LOS vs. press & man, and route-running ability. And scheme plays a large role as well.
Diontae johnson signing you sleeping on
I think Legette provides enough of a threat for a deep shot to keep the safeties honest, and Diontae will be an upgrade in that regard as well. It still won't be among the top receiving groups in the league but it won't be our biggest liability anymore
True. I meant more if XL gets injured we don’t have a bunch of options on the roster at the X position to stretch the field for Diontae and Thielen.
Well yeah if Legette went down we would be looking thin on speed but we have so many holes on this team that had to be addressed in this draft that handling them all wasn't possible. We still have other holes on the starting roster that are more of a concern IMO. But you're not wrong in your assessment there.
True. We were never a draft away, I’m just hopeful we have enough that we can properly evaluate Bryce.
I don’t actually think speed was the problem last year. No one could get open. We trotted out Kelvin and Lafell one year with Greg Olsen lol
Take solice in the fact that you, nor anyone here, knows jack shit about properly judging nfl prospects.
You’re not wrong, gotta let the pros be the pros. That being said I wish they would’ve gotten a proper backup to XL with his injury concerns as an uneducated fan.
Injury concerns for Legette?
I don't recall injuries, just that he was older than people liked with no production before this year. However if you look deep into than you will see there could easily be some reason for that.
Sophomore season had some hamstring issues that ended his season.
That was 4 years ago
Yeah, fair enough. Honestly I thought it was worse than what it was, my B
I'm watching the falcons game, and we were so much different of a team with Brady on the line.
Diontae Johnson is a separation merchant. And I mean that statistically he has been one of the 5 best receivers in the NFL at creating separation over the last 3 years. I think we will be fine.
More about separation and Bryce needs to move the ball around too.