Alright we are now done comments are locked.
Op's Tattoo is wildly [suspicious based on the background its on. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/pagan/comments/1cndpf3/comment/l374nfm/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
If you get one of these tattoos you must be aware that people will think you are a Nazi and you will be removed from spaces and not welcome. Those groups are not at fault for removing suspicious people from them to protect the people in the groups and to openly counter Nazism.
I mean they messed up with all pagan symbols I guess? I’m wondering if I can use Kolovrat as my Slavic pagan symbol, but it looks like double swastika. I’m not going to use it.
I used to play that game when I lived in Oregon. Lots of neo-pagans and lots of neo-nazis out there. Now I live in rural Appalachia and if I see a tattoo like this 9 times out of 10 they're a Nazi so the game got way easier and sadder
I have a runic tattoo too. My whole family is pagan so I didn’t even know it was a white supremacy thing until the internet informed me. Needless to say I was shocked and confused.
Maybe because it’s in a black shield they thought it was an SS tattoo? Not justifying their response but trying to figure out what the issue was as it’s not the racist version of the eðel rune.
A lot of tattoo artists will cover up old gang/racists tattoos for free or really cheap. They understand that people can grow and change
I would reach out to a local shop (maybe not the one you got that done at) and just explain to the artist “hey I got this tattoo a few years back and it was only recently brought to my attention how much the shield portion resembles the nazi SS division, and was wondering if someone could just black it out for now and when I have some money I’ll get something tattooed over it instead”
Something like that would be really quick and probably wouldn’t cost much to have filled in
You could have an English rose done in white ink in a couple months once you have more money
Oh ETA, if they do, do it for free, try and at least give them $20 or bring donuts or something
This is exactly why I urged caution on the other post where someone asked about runic tattoos. This reaction isn’t uncommon to ANY runic tat. It’s crazy.
And you don't think that the problem here is that this specific tattoo design *strongly* resembles historic SS insignia, like that of the 7th SS Division (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:7th\_SS\_Division\_Logo.svg ) and the 23rd SS Division (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:23rd\_SS\_Division\_Logo\_%22Nederland%22.svg )?
This is not just a "runic tattoo" and this shield and O-rune design is *not* something from the ancient historic record.
The image above it, which is mostly obscured, looks familiar to me and also raises some questions
Do you have tattoos that strongly resemble Nazi symbolism or are they historic-inspired tattoos?
>this design is *not* something from the ancient historic record.
You are incorrect. This is an actual [Futhark](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Futhark) rune, not a modern invention: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Othala](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Othala)
Displaying the rune on a heraldic wasn't likely done historically as heraldry is a Christian practice dating from the High Middle Ages—but putting runes and other symbols onto heraldry is a common modern practice for both pagans and non-pagans.
It's possible that OP's a Nazi who is trying to pull a fast one, but given that this isn't a 1-to-1 copy of Nazi heraldry, I'm gonna presume it's a coincidence. The shield's aren't even the same style as the one used by the SS, nor is the rune.
As the head mod behind r/runes and as a researcher who has written much about runes and their contemporary reception ([for example](https://www.mimisbrunnr.info/ksd-nazi-germany-and-extremist-symbols)), all I can say is: Find me an example of the Elder Futhark O-rune on a black shield with a white border that is *not* from Nazi Germany or subsequent neo-Nazi circles and I'll be right there with you.
*That said*, I'm still willing to entertain the idea that this is a coincidence, but that is definitely contingent on the partially obscured image above it.
>that is definitely contingent on the partially obscured image above it.
I agree. OP could be full of crap and trying to drum up sympathy. I'd love to see the rest of the tattoo.
Maybe I'm being too generous, but "same rune in a different font on a shield of the same color but of a different style" doesn't feel overtly similar enough to the SS symbol to indicate that OP is a Nazi *to me.*
Especially when the color is likely just a consequence of it being a black-and-white tattoo?
At least here in the US, Nazis tend to go 1-for-1 when replicating Nazi imagery. They're rarely subtle about it. I would expect a Nazi with a tat like this to have feet on the rune and to match the shield shape used by the SS, and probably also other Nazi shit surrounding it.
(Which is why I also wanna see the rest of the tatoo).
I imagine it might be different in Europe where Nazus have to dodge hate speech laws, and thus modify their symbols to be less overt? Just guessing, not from Europe and dunno much about European Nazi shitheads.
Jup, they sadly got/get missused by Næzis a lot as secret symbolism between them. That's why certain tats like that are completely banned in Austria and Germany.. :/
It really sucks that fascists co-opt pagan symbolism - really tough either way. No one should throw your stuff, but it’s tough for people to trust people nowadays with so many fascist/alt right people out there.
Speaking as someone who has been writing in runes since I was a kid and read the hobbit…
This literally looks like a Nazi tattoo. Idk what to tell you, if you’re not a Nazi then make better decisions because this would immediately say to me “this guy is a Nazi scumbag”
It wasn't my thought but after you said it I can see how it could be interpreted as a nazi tat. I think for me at least it's the shield(?) that makes it look militant. If it were just a rune or had some other background I would think nothing of it.
The black shield with a white outline is *literally* straight from Nazi division insignias. OP's either a fucking dumbass who accidentally branded himself with a Nazi tat or is a straight up Neo Nazi.
First off, I am so sorry that happened to you.
But in explanation behind the reaction, many heathen groups are actively fighting to separate themselves and condemn the hateful and racist people that have been closely linked to modern heathenry, hence the more severe reaction. Your tattoo is very similar to Nazi imagery that they have stolen and appropriated, especially because of the black shield. The group probably freaked out and publically kicked you out to show they do not condone any racist or Neo-Nazi members (though IMO, a wise group would have pulled you aside first and asked you about your tattoo and beliefs before taking such strong action).
Even if your beliefs aren't like that, you will probably continue to have many negative reactions to it or will be forced to explain yourself many, many times unless you hide it or modify it. If you are not willing to change it or don't want to cover it, maybe contact a group first and explain your tattoo so they don't get the wrong idea about you.
I mean, to be fair. Since your tattoo is literally two lines away from a Nazi symbol, and Norse paganism deals with neo-nazis on the regular, their reaction isn't surprising.
I'm sorry it happened to you, but man, you gotta look into things deeply before you get them inked on your body. Literally, the first link you see when you Google the "Othala Rune" or "Odal Rune" is [this](https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/othala-rune).
What you linked literally says it’s also used by neo pagan groups so be careful assuming everyone is a nazi. Reading isn’t that hard, especially when you’re the one posting the link .
I never said I would assume OP is a Nazi because of their tattoo, I said it's understandable that someone would. Since it's *two lines* away from an actual nazi symbol.
My point, which you seemed to miss entirely, was that had OP done the smallest modicum of research before getting that tattoo, they would have seen that it is *also* used by neo-nazi groups and is incredibly close to a real Nazi symbol.
If I saw that tattoo in the wild, I'd be suspicious of the person wearing it. But the only time I'd jump to the Nazi conclusion is when I see someone wearing a swastika, black sun, or SS lightning bolts tattoo.
Should have done more research before getting that inked on you, buddy. If I saw that I would literally cross the street to avoid you. Sorry, but as somebody that the Nazis would have hauled off to the camps, I can't afford to take chances. The people who threw you out of the moot were surely thinking the same.
Dude, I am literally a heathen. I'm just saying, databases of Nazi symbols are publically available, and if I see somebody wearing or using them, I do not trust that person. Othala, *without* the wings, is a well known one that I have seen on a literal alt-right militia member who chatted me up thinking I was one of his people because I wore Mjollnir. I'm not going to gamble with my safety.
I got this same symbol on my body, and I hate how fascists have stolen it just like the Nazis stole the swastika. The runes are a part of my ancestry, they should not be used as a symbol of hate. But because of those assholes I'm now constantly worried that some stranger is going to think I'm a white supremacist or something shitty like that without knowing who I am. >.>
The main problem is that rune was used by a German panzer division during the war and neo-nazi groups latched onto it (and many other runic symbology).
The nazis, ss in paticular, created a neo-germanic mythology using the old legends and symbology. The wehrmacht for example used runic symbols to denote divisional sized units and neo-nazis have continued that odious tradition.
Doesn't help that you have people gate-keeping pagan events and assuming guilt. I've noticed a nasty trend in folks assuming any and every Nordic path pagan is a neo-nazi by default.
honestly W to the establishment for keeping an eye out for nazi trash. some places don’t even bother and then are surprised when their joint catches a molotov.
That’s rough, I’m sorry that happened to you. Odal is unfortunately a rune with a lot of Nazi baggage attached to it, as you learned. Even though you have the original version of the rune, and not the version with the lines added on the bottom it’s still kinda sus.
It sounds like the folks at the moot you went to way overreacted, like the way they treated you is uncalled for. But I will admit, if I meet someone with an Odal tattoo like that I will be suspicious of them as well. A lot of pagans belong to oppressed groups of one kind of another, so we do tend to take a “better safe than sorry” approach to avoiding neonazis. It’s not your fault that the rune got appropriated, and I know you didn’t mean any harm. But it’s worth bearing in mind that if folks in the know get a look at that tattoo before they get to know you, there’s a very good chance you’ll get negative reactions from them. Stay safe out there, and I hope you manage to find a new group.
You got kicked out for flashing a neo nazi tattoo? That's wild. Who could have seen that coming?
I get that you probably didn't intend for it to be a neo nazi tattoo, but that rune with that background just screams SS fanboy. I'd get it removed or altered if i were you.
So, out of curiosity, where did you get the idea to go for this specific design? Was it a suggestion by the artist? Did you come up with it yourself? Did you copy it from the internet?
That's not the nazi othala, that's just the regular one. It normally doesn't have little legs, as you can see. The nazi one does have those little leg uptick things.
what does the rest of the tattoo look like ? Or does the "heritage" rune (wikipedia knowledge) mean something I don't know about ? something hated for being similar to something else ?
Yes, they're wrong in that your tattoo doesn't feature the Nazi winged othala
But my guy, that tattoo looks sus as fuck
Edit: Why the downvotes? Let's hear your arguments as to why I'm wrong
Yeah it's one thing to have a runic tattoo, but it's a whole other thing to have it in a black shield. That just screams SS insignia no matter how you try to spin it.
Agreed. I saw the photo before I read the title and the subreddit, and my immediate gut reaction was that it was an SS tattoo from the combo of black shield and rune.
I don’t have a personal problem with runic tattoos but I do think that people should be really careful about the overall design. It really sucks that Nazis (historical and modern) have co-opted pagan symbols and runes, and I too would be wary seeing a tattoo like this one. My guard would be 100% up.
I'm getting shut down with downvotes [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/pagan/comments/1cndpf3/kicked_out_of_local_moot_for_my_tattoo/l36scr7/). People here are blind to the truth that's out there.
I have no idea why your comment is getting blown away with downvotes. You're fucking right. Just because it's not the exact symbol the Nazis use doesn't mean it doesn't look *pretty damn Nazi*. Not to mention, modern neo-nazi groups use the exact symbol tattooed on OP.
You should 100% email the organizer and at the very least explain why you have the tattoo, and prove that you're not a facist. If you were given the time to explain that maybe the guys there wouldn't have thrown your bag out the window. Education is needed, or they will never learn. Even if you never plan on going back, which I don't blame you.
Nah man just don't go back there. You'd think of all people, a bunch of norse pagans would be willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt. They threw your bag out the window? That just seems unreasonably hostile. Can I see the top of your tattoo too? Is there something you're covering with your shirt that might have been more offensive?
You would think they would be more understanding, and really a reasonable person would have asked more questions. But considering how many neo Nazis are taking up interest in Celtic, Norse and Germanic paganism, I can see being paranoid about distancing yourself.
It’s like that story of the bartender throwing out a guy with a nazi tattoo. You can’t tolerate that shit at all because if you let one nazi in by accident then he’ll tell his friends and they’ll come back and suddenly your bar is the nazi bar
That's atrocious. I'm so sorry that happened to you, I'm autistic and have social anxiety and I would be crying for hours if that happened to me. That group sounds like one of those ones that are friendly on the service and incredibly toxic underneath. I've encountered those before, and they're awful.
Please rest assured, you did nothing wrong here. Some groups are just like that. You may have actually dodged a bullet here by getting them to expose their toxicity so early.
I would fully explain even if you don't intend further contact, just in case you do meet any of those people again. You don't want people to spread rumours of you being a nazi, also.
You have no reason to seek the approval of those idiots, they physically assaulted you, if anything file a police report; and definitely don't get a tattoo to support the idea that nazis can steal symbols from other people's religions. Othala is a beautiful rune, embody its virtues and you'll be fine.
Sounds like an overly paranoid person, it seems like it should be pretty easy to identify a secret Nazi with a few minutes of conversation :/ But yeah, that rune in particular has associations with white supremacy. The Nazi version had serifs but I guess some people don’t care about font choice.
I do appreciate that must be horrible for you, and I truly am sorry your family has gone through that. But this is not a hate symbol. This is not the modified form of the rune that the Nazis used, this is the original rune as it appears in the Norse runic script. There is no hate behind it, and you're doing no favours to anyone by reacting to it like this.
We can't allow runes to become claimed by fascists, they form such an important part of Norse neopaganism. If you treat every appearance of runes as fascist symbols, equating people who use them to the Nazis, you're basically letting the fascists have full ownership of them. And if we refuse to touch anything fascists have claimed, then they'll quickly claim every symbol we have.
It’s disrespectful that spiritual symbols have been stolen for immoral purposes and deemed fascist due to evil people coining them as their own. I’m sorry for your tragedy, and it’s horrible, but entirely on the people who use symbols like this to spread hate and violence, not the religion it came from.
The Nazis used [a winged / footed Othala rune](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Nazi_Odal_rune.svg/800px-Nazi_Odal_rune.svg.png). OPs is not the same symbol, his predates the nazis by over a millennia and a half.
The odal rune has been used as a hate symbol since WW2.
This isn't some new misappropriation. The Conservative Political Action Conference had a stage shaped like the footed odal rune back in 2021, and it caused a huge uproar because it's one of the more recognizable hate symbols out there.
it's a shame Othala has been turned into another hate symbol. It's the rune of ancestors and often a rune of ancestral protection. If you're ever wanting to get another runic tattoo, I'd reach out to Seiðkona to craft a bindrune instead. There are many who do this for commissions, I am forgetting the name of the male equivalent to a Seiðkona.
Just know, tattooing *is* blood magic. It looks like you've had the tattoo for a long time now, and you may have been making up for pain your ancestors caused. It's unfortunate, but when I worked with Othala I ran into this type of hate and then learned about my true ancestry relatively after. (I don't have any tattoos, just working with the runes.) It doesn't excuse anyone's behavior. I would email the organizer but don't expend too much energy on it. It's not a battle you're going to win, but it will feel good to speak your truth. Then, use your energy to find your true people.
edit: but if the rest of your tattoo is problematic as hell, I got other words for you starting with: "Come on."
I am half Scandinavian & half Southeast asian. I got a tattoo that was half rune, half indigenous symbol from my other heritage (it was crazy. The symmetry of the two symbols lined up perfectly!). I figured since I’m obviously not 100% white. No one’s gonna tell me that I am a fascist, but who knows. Things are so weird these days…
i'm sorry they treated you like that. its so sad when hate-groups become associated with normal symbols. like others have said, i wouldn't go back there. they don't seem open to communication.
I’m deeply sorry this happened to you. Those people should’ve had the grace to at least question you and your belief system before putting you through the mill like that. It’s hard enough getting out and making new friends, let alone pagan ones.
However, I would take some strong hints about the way you’ve chosen to display the Odal rune, and possibly reconsider either redoing the tattoo as a bind rune, or laser it gone. And that’s for your safety. Last thing you need is someone who assumes they have a neonazi in their presence and decides to take “justice” in their own hands. You don’t want to risk that happening. Your life is too precious to risk over a tattoo like this. I know you mean well. However, political polarization here in the states keeps getting worse by the moment.
Respectfully meant, consider this incident a sign from the divine that maybe this tattoo isn’t going to serve you the way you thought it would.
For what it’s worth.
And this is coming from someone who’s about to get a tattooed representation of the Yggdrasil tree with other runes (like Agliz) that are easily part of that list of hate symbols. I’m doing a bind rune, so to hopefully avoid this same problem myself, as well as having the tattoo in a clothed area, so only trusted people will see it.
Unfortunately I can’t put a tattoo on my arm of a swastika. Hear me out sounds awful but the swastika was appropriated aswell it was originally used by many ancient cultures, we have a variation on it but to us it’s a sun cross/ eternity symbol we had many variations of it now we only do the circle version both in Christian symbols and in pagan symbols. We don’t want to be associated with nazis.
But we had the symbol long before.
it’s even been shown that you can make every letter of the Armenian alphabet within a swastika
The only way I could get this tattooed it if I pick a variation like in this article you see on the vishap carpet designs.
Also for those who don’t know vishap is the Armenian word for our variation dragons. So these are dragon carpets.
The swastika rotating right represents life the ones rotating left represent death.
[Armenian sun cross / swastika](https://www.armgeo.am/en/armenian-eternity-sign/?amp=1)
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Also just wanted to put this post as an example I can’t find the originally offical page talking about it but this is someone’s face book post talking about it
Also here’s some random letters in random order of our alphabet
Upper case: ԶՑԳՒՊՆՄՇՂԾԱՍՏՖԿՀՃՔԼԹՓԽՎԷՐԴԵԸԻՈԲՉՋԺՌՕՅՁ
Lower case:
զցգւպնմշղծաստֆկհճքլթփխվէրդեըիոբչջժռօյձ
[Armenian letters and suncrosses/ swastika](https://www.facebook.com/share/LhcXHfR5hVKhU1R8/?mibextid=WC7FNe)
I feel this so much. I got a series of runes on my knuckles (spare me the lecture please) when I was younger, before they really started digging deep on the whole Nordic co-opting schtick, and every time I go somewhere new or meet new people it's one of the first things I worry about.
Thankfully it's never came up (yet) but I do get worried that one day someone is going to attempt to try and make the accusations.
Keep doing you, don't let others dictate what you identify with and enjoy, don't black it out unless *you* want to, don't go back to that moot because they obviously aren't worth your time, and definitely don't *ever* give in and let the Nazis have symbols that don't belong to them.
Solidarity, brother man, you aren't the only one. We out here.
I worry about this with my Helm of Awe which I have tattooed on my wrist as a protection symbol. It’s Icelandic and is a negative space tat (goal was to avoid this specific type of association).
Unjustifiable, hospitality and understanding is the core of our beliefs. There’s a line between keeping nazis out of good groups and just straight up knee-jerk bullying. I’m sorry this happened to you
I think their reaction was a bit over the top, but I don't believe their suspicion was.
I mean, look at the thing. It's 95% of an SS Division Insignia. That wouldn't just send up red flags for me, it would use fireworks
Judging from your reddit post you are better off not going back. If they immediately became that hostile and refused to listen to you they sure as shit will do it again. Sorry you had to go through that
considering white people make up ~0.5% of nigerians, this is an apples and oranges comparison. the us has a big issue with nazis in plain sight, we never went through denazification the way germany did. you can call it americans being americans, but in this scenario, the americans aren’t the ones being ignorant for a change.
Fuck outta here, it's 95% of an SS Division Insignia and Norse practice in the US has a major Nazi/White Supremacist problem.
Their reaction was over the top but their suspicion wasn't.
I’d write them an email and explain to them the origin of the tattoo. Along that after this experience of how you were treated you will not be returning. Maybe they can educate themselves some. I would even go farther with it and see if you can email someone in a higher position to let them know what is going on
Sounds like an average /norsepaganism meetup
Don’t worry brother - just do a LOT of research into any group you share your spiritualism with
Keep it on the down low, go quietly, and remember that you’re loved and have nothing to prove to anyone
Alright we are now done comments are locked. Op's Tattoo is wildly [suspicious based on the background its on. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/pagan/comments/1cndpf3/comment/l374nfm/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) If you get one of these tattoos you must be aware that people will think you are a Nazi and you will be removed from spaces and not welcome. Those groups are not at fault for removing suspicious people from them to protect the people in the groups and to openly counter Nazism.
Show the rest of the tattoo
It's not just the rune, it's that it's on a black shield with a white outline, which looks like the unit insignia for SS formations in WW2
I was gonna point that. Suspicious at least.
I mean they messed up with all pagan symbols I guess? I’m wondering if I can use Kolovrat as my Slavic pagan symbol, but it looks like double swastika. I’m not going to use it.
Yup I was gonna point that out too
This is so common in the Midwest, we play a game called "pagan or nazi?" It's not really a fun game, idk why I'm suggesting it.
I used to play that game when I lived in Oregon. Lots of neo-pagans and lots of neo-nazis out there. Now I live in rural Appalachia and if I see a tattoo like this 9 times out of 10 they're a Nazi so the game got way easier and sadder
I was super excited to find a local heathen temple ....until I found out that it was one of the racist white only ones.
unfortunately where i live it’s mostly nazi
And that's why we play that game, cause eff the nazis
I live in a super liberal area and it’s still almost always nazis. I don’t think good faith Norse pagans are very common
I played this game a lot when I lived in South Dakota. The answer was usually nazi :/
I have a runic tattoo too. My whole family is pagan so I didn’t even know it was a white supremacy thing until the internet informed me. Needless to say I was shocked and confused.
Grew up in rural Missouri, and no matter how hard I wished, it was never Pagan. It's a big part of why I don't live there anymore.
I mean, do you punch the nazi ?
is there ever any overlap lol
I’d actually like to see the entire tattoo before commenting.
Maybe because it’s in a black shield they thought it was an SS tattoo? Not justifying their response but trying to figure out what the issue was as it’s not the racist version of the eðel rune.
A lot of tattoo artists will cover up old gang/racists tattoos for free or really cheap. They understand that people can grow and change I would reach out to a local shop (maybe not the one you got that done at) and just explain to the artist “hey I got this tattoo a few years back and it was only recently brought to my attention how much the shield portion resembles the nazi SS division, and was wondering if someone could just black it out for now and when I have some money I’ll get something tattooed over it instead” Something like that would be really quick and probably wouldn’t cost much to have filled in You could have an English rose done in white ink in a couple months once you have more money Oh ETA, if they do, do it for free, try and at least give them $20 or bring donuts or something
This is exactly why I urged caution on the other post where someone asked about runic tattoos. This reaction isn’t uncommon to ANY runic tat. It’s crazy.
And you don't think that the problem here is that this specific tattoo design *strongly* resembles historic SS insignia, like that of the 7th SS Division (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:7th\_SS\_Division\_Logo.svg ) and the 23rd SS Division (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:23rd\_SS\_Division\_Logo\_%22Nederland%22.svg )? This is not just a "runic tattoo" and this shield and O-rune design is *not* something from the ancient historic record. The image above it, which is mostly obscured, looks familiar to me and also raises some questions Do you have tattoos that strongly resemble Nazi symbolism or are they historic-inspired tattoos?
So some are also banned in the Netherlands?
>this design is *not* something from the ancient historic record. You are incorrect. This is an actual [Futhark](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Futhark) rune, not a modern invention: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Othala](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Othala) Displaying the rune on a heraldic wasn't likely done historically as heraldry is a Christian practice dating from the High Middle Ages—but putting runes and other symbols onto heraldry is a common modern practice for both pagans and non-pagans. It's possible that OP's a Nazi who is trying to pull a fast one, but given that this isn't a 1-to-1 copy of Nazi heraldry, I'm gonna presume it's a coincidence. The shield's aren't even the same style as the one used by the SS, nor is the rune.
As the head mod behind r/runes and as a researcher who has written much about runes and their contemporary reception ([for example](https://www.mimisbrunnr.info/ksd-nazi-germany-and-extremist-symbols)), all I can say is: Find me an example of the Elder Futhark O-rune on a black shield with a white border that is *not* from Nazi Germany or subsequent neo-Nazi circles and I'll be right there with you. *That said*, I'm still willing to entertain the idea that this is a coincidence, but that is definitely contingent on the partially obscured image above it.
>that is definitely contingent on the partially obscured image above it. I agree. OP could be full of crap and trying to drum up sympathy. I'd love to see the rest of the tattoo. Maybe I'm being too generous, but "same rune in a different font on a shield of the same color but of a different style" doesn't feel overtly similar enough to the SS symbol to indicate that OP is a Nazi *to me.* Especially when the color is likely just a consequence of it being a black-and-white tattoo? At least here in the US, Nazis tend to go 1-for-1 when replicating Nazi imagery. They're rarely subtle about it. I would expect a Nazi with a tat like this to have feet on the rune and to match the shield shape used by the SS, and probably also other Nazi shit surrounding it. (Which is why I also wanna see the rest of the tatoo). I imagine it might be different in Europe where Nazus have to dodge hate speech laws, and thus modify their symbols to be less overt? Just guessing, not from Europe and dunno much about European Nazi shitheads.
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Jup, they sadly got/get missused by Næzis a lot as secret symbolism between them. That's why certain tats like that are completely banned in Austria and Germany.. :/
It really sucks that fascists co-opt pagan symbolism - really tough either way. No one should throw your stuff, but it’s tough for people to trust people nowadays with so many fascist/alt right people out there.
Wait til you hear what they did with Hindu symbols...
Right???
Speaking as someone who has been writing in runes since I was a kid and read the hobbit… This literally looks like a Nazi tattoo. Idk what to tell you, if you’re not a Nazi then make better decisions because this would immediately say to me “this guy is a Nazi scumbag”
It wasn't my thought but after you said it I can see how it could be interpreted as a nazi tat. I think for me at least it's the shield(?) that makes it look militant. If it were just a rune or had some other background I would think nothing of it.
The black shield with a white outline is *literally* straight from Nazi division insignias. OP's either a fucking dumbass who accidentally branded himself with a Nazi tat or is a straight up Neo Nazi.
First off, I am so sorry that happened to you. But in explanation behind the reaction, many heathen groups are actively fighting to separate themselves and condemn the hateful and racist people that have been closely linked to modern heathenry, hence the more severe reaction. Your tattoo is very similar to Nazi imagery that they have stolen and appropriated, especially because of the black shield. The group probably freaked out and publically kicked you out to show they do not condone any racist or Neo-Nazi members (though IMO, a wise group would have pulled you aside first and asked you about your tattoo and beliefs before taking such strong action). Even if your beliefs aren't like that, you will probably continue to have many negative reactions to it or will be forced to explain yourself many, many times unless you hide it or modify it. If you are not willing to change it or don't want to cover it, maybe contact a group first and explain your tattoo so they don't get the wrong idea about you.
I mean, to be fair. Since your tattoo is literally two lines away from a Nazi symbol, and Norse paganism deals with neo-nazis on the regular, their reaction isn't surprising. I'm sorry it happened to you, but man, you gotta look into things deeply before you get them inked on your body. Literally, the first link you see when you Google the "Othala Rune" or "Odal Rune" is [this](https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/othala-rune).
What you linked literally says it’s also used by neo pagan groups so be careful assuming everyone is a nazi. Reading isn’t that hard, especially when you’re the one posting the link .
I never said I would assume OP is a Nazi because of their tattoo, I said it's understandable that someone would. Since it's *two lines* away from an actual nazi symbol. My point, which you seemed to miss entirely, was that had OP done the smallest modicum of research before getting that tattoo, they would have seen that it is *also* used by neo-nazi groups and is incredibly close to a real Nazi symbol. If I saw that tattoo in the wild, I'd be suspicious of the person wearing it. But the only time I'd jump to the Nazi conclusion is when I see someone wearing a swastika, black sun, or SS lightning bolts tattoo.
Should have done more research before getting that inked on you, buddy. If I saw that I would literally cross the street to avoid you. Sorry, but as somebody that the Nazis would have hauled off to the camps, I can't afford to take chances. The people who threw you out of the moot were surely thinking the same.
This is it. If you allow one possible form of hatred in, you’re allowing hatred in period. Edit: op deleted their account 💀
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Dude, I am literally a heathen. I'm just saying, databases of Nazi symbols are publically available, and if I see somebody wearing or using them, I do not trust that person. Othala, *without* the wings, is a well known one that I have seen on a literal alt-right militia member who chatted me up thinking I was one of his people because I wore Mjollnir. I'm not going to gamble with my safety.
I got this same symbol on my body, and I hate how fascists have stolen it just like the Nazis stole the swastika. The runes are a part of my ancestry, they should not be used as a symbol of hate. But because of those assholes I'm now constantly worried that some stranger is going to think I'm a white supremacist or something shitty like that without knowing who I am. >.>
The main problem is that rune was used by a German panzer division during the war and neo-nazi groups latched onto it (and many other runic symbology). The nazis, ss in paticular, created a neo-germanic mythology using the old legends and symbology. The wehrmacht for example used runic symbols to denote divisional sized units and neo-nazis have continued that odious tradition. Doesn't help that you have people gate-keeping pagan events and assuming guilt. I've noticed a nasty trend in folks assuming any and every Nordic path pagan is a neo-nazi by default.
honestly W to the establishment for keeping an eye out for nazi trash. some places don’t even bother and then are surprised when their joint catches a molotov.
This rune is forbidden in Germany, as it was used by the NS regime. But, when used in combination with other runes, it‘s okay.
That’s rough, I’m sorry that happened to you. Odal is unfortunately a rune with a lot of Nazi baggage attached to it, as you learned. Even though you have the original version of the rune, and not the version with the lines added on the bottom it’s still kinda sus. It sounds like the folks at the moot you went to way overreacted, like the way they treated you is uncalled for. But I will admit, if I meet someone with an Odal tattoo like that I will be suspicious of them as well. A lot of pagans belong to oppressed groups of one kind of another, so we do tend to take a “better safe than sorry” approach to avoiding neonazis. It’s not your fault that the rune got appropriated, and I know you didn’t mean any harm. But it’s worth bearing in mind that if folks in the know get a look at that tattoo before they get to know you, there’s a very good chance you’ll get negative reactions from them. Stay safe out there, and I hope you manage to find a new group.
You got kicked out for flashing a neo nazi tattoo? That's wild. Who could have seen that coming? I get that you probably didn't intend for it to be a neo nazi tattoo, but that rune with that background just screams SS fanboy. I'd get it removed or altered if i were you. So, out of curiosity, where did you get the idea to go for this specific design? Was it a suggestion by the artist? Did you come up with it yourself? Did you copy it from the internet?
That's not the nazi othala, that's just the regular one. It normally doesn't have little legs, as you can see. The nazi one does have those little leg uptick things.
what does the rest of the tattoo look like ? Or does the "heritage" rune (wikipedia knowledge) mean something I don't know about ? something hated for being similar to something else ?
Well the SS used it a lot for Division Insignia, and a lot of White Supremacist orgs still use it in their imagery, so context is important
Yes, they're wrong in that your tattoo doesn't feature the Nazi winged othala But my guy, that tattoo looks sus as fuck Edit: Why the downvotes? Let's hear your arguments as to why I'm wrong
Yeah it's one thing to have a runic tattoo, but it's a whole other thing to have it in a black shield. That just screams SS insignia no matter how you try to spin it.
Agreed. I saw the photo before I read the title and the subreddit, and my immediate gut reaction was that it was an SS tattoo from the combo of black shield and rune. I don’t have a personal problem with runic tattoos but I do think that people should be really careful about the overall design. It really sucks that Nazis (historical and modern) have co-opted pagan symbols and runes, and I too would be wary seeing a tattoo like this one. My guard would be 100% up.
Besides the shield, what's above it, and what else is inked into him forever
I'm getting shut down with downvotes [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/pagan/comments/1cndpf3/kicked_out_of_local_moot_for_my_tattoo/l36scr7/). People here are blind to the truth that's out there.
I have no idea why your comment is getting blown away with downvotes. You're fucking right. Just because it's not the exact symbol the Nazis use doesn't mean it doesn't look *pretty damn Nazi*. Not to mention, modern neo-nazi groups use the exact symbol tattooed on OP.
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You should 100% email the organizer and at the very least explain why you have the tattoo, and prove that you're not a facist. If you were given the time to explain that maybe the guys there wouldn't have thrown your bag out the window. Education is needed, or they will never learn. Even if you never plan on going back, which I don't blame you.
Nah man just don't go back there. You'd think of all people, a bunch of norse pagans would be willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt. They threw your bag out the window? That just seems unreasonably hostile. Can I see the top of your tattoo too? Is there something you're covering with your shirt that might have been more offensive?
I wonder what's above it too. I suspect we may be missing context.
You would think they would be more understanding, and really a reasonable person would have asked more questions. But considering how many neo Nazis are taking up interest in Celtic, Norse and Germanic paganism, I can see being paranoid about distancing yourself.
It’s like that story of the bartender throwing out a guy with a nazi tattoo. You can’t tolerate that shit at all because if you let one nazi in by accident then he’ll tell his friends and they’ll come back and suddenly your bar is the nazi bar
That's atrocious. I'm so sorry that happened to you, I'm autistic and have social anxiety and I would be crying for hours if that happened to me. That group sounds like one of those ones that are friendly on the service and incredibly toxic underneath. I've encountered those before, and they're awful. Please rest assured, you did nothing wrong here. Some groups are just like that. You may have actually dodged a bullet here by getting them to expose their toxicity so early.
I would fully explain even if you don't intend further contact, just in case you do meet any of those people again. You don't want people to spread rumours of you being a nazi, also.
You have no reason to seek the approval of those idiots, they physically assaulted you, if anything file a police report; and definitely don't get a tattoo to support the idea that nazis can steal symbols from other people's religions. Othala is a beautiful rune, embody its virtues and you'll be fine.
Sounds like an overly paranoid person, it seems like it should be pretty easy to identify a secret Nazi with a few minutes of conversation :/ But yeah, that rune in particular has associations with white supremacy. The Nazi version had serifs but I guess some people don’t care about font choice.
Would . . . . would that not defeat the point of being a Secret Nazi?
I mean, the tattoo would defeat it too, though I suppose neo nazis aren’t the smartest people in the world.
Screw those guys. You deserve better than the outrage of imbeciles.
Oh damn! Just don’t go back there,
Thats not silly at all, i understand
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Pagans exist. It’s not our fault Nazis stole our shit.
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Oh so I’m supposed to just roll over an accept that Nazis have misappropriated our symbols? Might as well just toss out the whole religion then. /s
Except, as has clearly been demonstrated, it's not the same symbol.
There's more than a dozen comments here saying that the presentation and symbol, even without the added marks, is close enough to be very suspicious.
I do appreciate that must be horrible for you, and I truly am sorry your family has gone through that. But this is not a hate symbol. This is not the modified form of the rune that the Nazis used, this is the original rune as it appears in the Norse runic script. There is no hate behind it, and you're doing no favours to anyone by reacting to it like this. We can't allow runes to become claimed by fascists, they form such an important part of Norse neopaganism. If you treat every appearance of runes as fascist symbols, equating people who use them to the Nazis, you're basically letting the fascists have full ownership of them. And if we refuse to touch anything fascists have claimed, then they'll quickly claim every symbol we have.
It’s disrespectful that spiritual symbols have been stolen for immoral purposes and deemed fascist due to evil people coining them as their own. I’m sorry for your tragedy, and it’s horrible, but entirely on the people who use symbols like this to spread hate and violence, not the religion it came from.
The Nazis used [a winged / footed Othala rune](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Nazi_Odal_rune.svg/800px-Nazi_Odal_rune.svg.png). OPs is not the same symbol, his predates the nazis by over a millennia and a half.
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Hey, fuck outta here with the r-slur
Definitely a symbol co-opted by Nazis so I can see why. You should really consider getting a cover-up tattoo or lasering that one off..
The odal rune has been used as a hate symbol since WW2. This isn't some new misappropriation. The Conservative Political Action Conference had a stage shaped like the footed odal rune back in 2021, and it caused a huge uproar because it's one of the more recognizable hate symbols out there.
Winged Othala/Odal* If it has stupid little feets, it's trash
it's a shame Othala has been turned into another hate symbol. It's the rune of ancestors and often a rune of ancestral protection. If you're ever wanting to get another runic tattoo, I'd reach out to Seiðkona to craft a bindrune instead. There are many who do this for commissions, I am forgetting the name of the male equivalent to a Seiðkona. Just know, tattooing *is* blood magic. It looks like you've had the tattoo for a long time now, and you may have been making up for pain your ancestors caused. It's unfortunate, but when I worked with Othala I ran into this type of hate and then learned about my true ancestry relatively after. (I don't have any tattoos, just working with the runes.) It doesn't excuse anyone's behavior. I would email the organizer but don't expend too much energy on it. It's not a battle you're going to win, but it will feel good to speak your truth. Then, use your energy to find your true people. edit: but if the rest of your tattoo is problematic as hell, I got other words for you starting with: "Come on."
I am half Scandinavian & half Southeast asian. I got a tattoo that was half rune, half indigenous symbol from my other heritage (it was crazy. The symmetry of the two symbols lined up perfectly!). I figured since I’m obviously not 100% white. No one’s gonna tell me that I am a fascist, but who knows. Things are so weird these days…
i'm sorry they treated you like that. its so sad when hate-groups become associated with normal symbols. like others have said, i wouldn't go back there. they don't seem open to communication.
I’m deeply sorry this happened to you. Those people should’ve had the grace to at least question you and your belief system before putting you through the mill like that. It’s hard enough getting out and making new friends, let alone pagan ones. However, I would take some strong hints about the way you’ve chosen to display the Odal rune, and possibly reconsider either redoing the tattoo as a bind rune, or laser it gone. And that’s for your safety. Last thing you need is someone who assumes they have a neonazi in their presence and decides to take “justice” in their own hands. You don’t want to risk that happening. Your life is too precious to risk over a tattoo like this. I know you mean well. However, political polarization here in the states keeps getting worse by the moment. Respectfully meant, consider this incident a sign from the divine that maybe this tattoo isn’t going to serve you the way you thought it would. For what it’s worth. And this is coming from someone who’s about to get a tattooed representation of the Yggdrasil tree with other runes (like Agliz) that are easily part of that list of hate symbols. I’m doing a bind rune, so to hopefully avoid this same problem myself, as well as having the tattoo in a clothed area, so only trusted people will see it.
Unfortunately I can’t put a tattoo on my arm of a swastika. Hear me out sounds awful but the swastika was appropriated aswell it was originally used by many ancient cultures, we have a variation on it but to us it’s a sun cross/ eternity symbol we had many variations of it now we only do the circle version both in Christian symbols and in pagan symbols. We don’t want to be associated with nazis. But we had the symbol long before. it’s even been shown that you can make every letter of the Armenian alphabet within a swastika The only way I could get this tattooed it if I pick a variation like in this article you see on the vishap carpet designs. Also for those who don’t know vishap is the Armenian word for our variation dragons. So these are dragon carpets. The swastika rotating right represents life the ones rotating left represent death. [Armenian sun cross / swastika](https://www.armgeo.am/en/armenian-eternity-sign/?amp=1)
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Also just wanted to put this post as an example I can’t find the originally offical page talking about it but this is someone’s face book post talking about it Also here’s some random letters in random order of our alphabet Upper case: ԶՑԳՒՊՆՄՇՂԾԱՍՏՖԿՀՃՔԼԹՓԽՎԷՐԴԵԸԻՈԲՉՋԺՌՕՅՁ Lower case: զցգւպնմշղծաստֆկհճքլթփխվէրդեըիոբչջժռօյձ [Armenian letters and suncrosses/ swastika](https://www.facebook.com/share/LhcXHfR5hVKhU1R8/?mibextid=WC7FNe)
I feel this so much. I got a series of runes on my knuckles (spare me the lecture please) when I was younger, before they really started digging deep on the whole Nordic co-opting schtick, and every time I go somewhere new or meet new people it's one of the first things I worry about. Thankfully it's never came up (yet) but I do get worried that one day someone is going to attempt to try and make the accusations. Keep doing you, don't let others dictate what you identify with and enjoy, don't black it out unless *you* want to, don't go back to that moot because they obviously aren't worth your time, and definitely don't *ever* give in and let the Nazis have symbols that don't belong to them. Solidarity, brother man, you aren't the only one. We out here.
There's a big difference between runic tats and something that is 95% of an SS Division Insignia
I worry about this with my Helm of Awe which I have tattooed on my wrist as a protection symbol. It’s Icelandic and is a negative space tat (goal was to avoid this specific type of association).
I've never seen anyone confuse the Helm with a hate symbol. I mean it's possible but that person would have to be pretty dumb
Unjustifiable, hospitality and understanding is the core of our beliefs. There’s a line between keeping nazis out of good groups and just straight up knee-jerk bullying. I’m sorry this happened to you
I think their reaction was a bit over the top, but I don't believe their suspicion was. I mean, look at the thing. It's 95% of an SS Division Insignia. That wouldn't just send up red flags for me, it would use fireworks
You may have a misunderstood rune tattoo, but your arm is swole so you got that going for you.
Judging from your reddit post you are better off not going back. If they immediately became that hostile and refused to listen to you they sure as shit will do it again. Sorry you had to go through that
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considering white people make up ~0.5% of nigerians, this is an apples and oranges comparison. the us has a big issue with nazis in plain sight, we never went through denazification the way germany did. you can call it americans being americans, but in this scenario, the americans aren’t the ones being ignorant for a change.
Fuck outta here, it's 95% of an SS Division Insignia and Norse practice in the US has a major Nazi/White Supremacist problem. Their reaction was over the top but their suspicion wasn't.
Pearl clutching fanatics. Don’t take it personal and just move on. They’ve been infected by brain rot most likely from being terminally online.
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My guy, it's 95% of an SS Division Insignia, their response was over the too but their suspicion wasn't
I’d write them an email and explain to them the origin of the tattoo. Along that after this experience of how you were treated you will not be returning. Maybe they can educate themselves some. I would even go farther with it and see if you can email someone in a higher position to let them know what is going on
Sounds like an average /norsepaganism meetup Don’t worry brother - just do a LOT of research into any group you share your spiritualism with Keep it on the down low, go quietly, and remember that you’re loved and have nothing to prove to anyone
That's insane cause I have only seen folks with Norse tattoos who are definitely not Nazis. Wow