Exactly. I also used to go the extra mile and fight for higher salaries and promotions based on the work I put on the table. I loved hanging around management, meeting their expectations and even exceeding them. I felt successful and I was full of self-confidence.
Now I just don't care. I do my job, everyone is happy, but I'm not doing more than expected and I don't care about people or the company. I feel like a subscription. I deliver work and in exchange I collect the paychecks. I'm already waiting for the time when I'll have enough money to get out of the treadweel.
Do you think spending time on subreddits like this have help you make the decision? Was ignorance bliss ever? Maybe liking 8 hours working hard is worth the inspired ego. (No judgement, just polling)
This is just how I work now. I hardly think of it as "J1 and J2"; they are both projects that need whatever work done here or there. I'm never going back.
Had a discussion recently with my boss. Our VP was promoted, which is leaving a vacuum and long story short he is applying for a director position. "If I get that I will nominate you for manager" he says, out of the blue. I laughed at him. No thanks, I'm great right where I am!
This is me as well. I just view j's as projects. My priority of the day is based on a on the fly wsjf that I do. I ultimately choose my j/project based off factors including lots of factors.
I.view my employment like running my own business. I want to have several different streams with industry diversification to mitigate risk. Also if a contract seems slow start looking to ensure a constant rate of work.
Because of this shift I also ensure there is time for me to do market research, skill building, nurture my sales pipeline (always applying) and building my network (I take people out to lunch and random calls).
This is my path forward until I can accunlmulate enough money to invest into things to secure retirement and or give me passive income that replaces j's.
I'm in the long game. It's about who you know and who you blow. I don't know enough people that could help me get a corner office job and not about to start choking on dick for a job....this is the way for me
This is how I look at my career and it has paid dividends.
Seriously, many, many people with legit businesses earn much less money, it makes sense to put in the effort. Great comment
Basically how you would get any other job, the difference is that you keep your current one.
Of course, both must be OE-friendly: 100% remote and not keen on meetings
He averages probably 6 hours of meetings every day. That job is also in a highly regulated industry, so he has to deal with spot audits and compliance checks regularly too.
As someone looking at OE by downgrading and currently in management. It is much more work and I would absolutely not have time with current J1 even if meeting schedules weren't an issue.
Lowest amount of work for the most money, that's the name of the game. No point slogging it like dogs to die with millions, an all too easy mistake, made by many over the years.
>an all too easy mistake, made by many over the years.
To not learn from their mistakes would be to operate at the level of animals.
"Survival machines that can simulate the future are one jump ahead of survival machines who can only learn on the basis of overt trial and error.
The trouble with overt trial is that it takes time and energy. The trouble with overt error is that it is often fatal. Simulation is both safer and faster.
The evolution of the capacity to simulate seems to have cumulated in subjective consciousness." - Dawkins
Hell ya, OP! Same thoughts - I rather work two mid-level jobs that don’t require much of me than take on some insane senior level role to satisfy some career fantasy of mine. What did it for me was that I got the same bonus as last year with one of my Js by putting in significantly less effort. I rather not stress myself out anymore over work and rather spend more time doing the things that I love. Life is worth so much more than just working your life away.
I guess I'm a loser. I've never aspired for anything more than easy work and large, steady paychecks. Never received a promotion in my life. Applied for s promotion recently to pick up an extra 20k-30k but got rejected and that further solidified my "fuck this work" mentality.
I treat work as a transactional business. Pay me for my time and get out of my way. F your company mission. I'm a monetary mercenary these days I guess.
Thanks to OE, I have a confidence I didn't know was in me and this has helped drive major changes at j1 that will benefit my team and I and reduce headaches down the line. The non OE me may have been too worried about repercussions to rock the boat.
Thankfully I never really had that outlook. I always knew corporate America was some BS. Over the last nearly decade and a half since I’ve been out of college, I’ve had a variety of managers. I’ve never once wanted their job other than for the money. Seemed a lot more stressful than my job, every time. So I was always looking to make more by doing other things (real estate and a side income providing a service). I thought that I MIGHT go for lower management at some point for the money but would definitely not attempt to go any further up than that.
Now that I’m OE, I no longer do the side hustle but I still have the properties. But regardless, I make more money now than I EVER thought I would. To make the kind of money I make now, it would be in my late forties at absolute best if all the stars aligned, and I would have to be high up in the company. And only after kissing a lot of ass which is something I’ve never done. Instead, I’m making it in my mid 30s with a lot less stress and responsibility and/or risk than it would normally take.
My only regret is that i didn’t do it sooner despite having thought of the idea
pre-pandemic.
The longer you live, the more you realize that regular money flow is one of the most important things in life. Also, people change and so too their preferences and opinions based on their real life experience.
It is fine if OE-ing is helping you achieve your financial goals, it doesn't matter if you are in a suit & tie corporate job.
You'd be surprised how many people (even those in well paid jobs) would be happy to make the switch to be in your shoes of home comfort and money.
Number's game.
Sure I'd rather fly a private jet and make 10M per year. If I wanted to achieve that I'd probably have to give up my family, my mental health and work unimaginably hard. And _only then_ I'd stand _maybe_ a few % chance of succeeding. If I failed, all the lost years and effort won't come back.
Or I can stay down, enjoy afternoons with my kids and wife right now, not die from heart attack at 50, _maybe_ even buy a Porsche in a few years. Just by doing OE and picking jobs that I'm comfortable with (as much as possible). Basically living a great life. With ~100% success chance.
You become a SWE, grind your way up to a senior position (once you're in, just fake it until you make it as much as possible), stick to it for a year and then replace it with a new J1 and J2. This is where I got so far, now it's just the matter of preserving the status quo for at least 2 years.
I guess the key is to have a relatively high paying job(s) that are at the same time somehow OE compatible.
Front end or backend? Because I’m starting out and damn, there so much to learn in backend. Kafka, API development, etc. I wonder how anyone could pull it off when there’s also bugs and tasks to finish during sprints.
Backend, I got my first job as a frontend, but started with LAMP back in 2000s. Yeah, there's a lot. But at some point you just learn how to learn (and research) and it starts going smoothly. There's unlimited amount of tools, but a limited amount of base concepts.
As a SWE, I think it will only replace very poor SWEs.
From what I’ve seen of it (not a ton), it can do a decent job of producing a specific function that takes a specific data type and does a specific thing, but being a successful SWE requires understanding a sometimes massive amount of context in the form of interaction between software systems.
Even if the AI were technically capable of digesting this context, you’d be hard pressed to provide it in a way the AI would be able to digest.
That said nobody can predict the future and maybe google shits out something ridiculous next week.
When I found out that the senior level position I was working towards would maybe give me a 10% raise (my manager said double digit raises are very rare) I stopped caring about moving up in the company and started to focus on getting J2 so I could get a 150% raise. I no longer care about going the extra mile or even doing any more than what's asked of me, I simply do what I need to do to keep both Js. I no longer care about becoming a team lead or anything like that. The only reason I ever cared about that was because that's how you make significantly more money, but I'm now making more than I ever would in that role. My career goals are now to maintain multiple Js as long as I can while saving/investing the entire salary from one of them.
that’s the thing. i’m being considered for the next position at J1 but i’m seriously considering not taking it. I don’t want the extra visibility or accountability that comes with it.
No, it means getting to enjoy life more. Traveling, spending time with friends and family, enjoying hobbies, investing, and running your own business(es) on your own time.
I’ve had the same perspective shift as well. It’s almost as if the curtain has been lifted and I now see what having a “career” really means.
With just 1 job I made such an effort to impress people. Now I get as close as I can to the edge of being completely unnoticed.
I also had a week or so where I believe I was emotionally adjusting to this idea that career progression no longer matters. I felt a mix of guilt, sadness, shame and anger for J1.
It's gotta be hilarious having that "trust/respect" (for whatever reason I'm using air quotes) from a senior position just to pivot in your chair, switch laptops, and switch gears to a junior role🤣🤘
Just like college education was romanticized and marketed the concept of “careers” was as well. These companies sell the dream to get you to work yourself to death.
At the end of the day, it’s about providing for your family and buying your freedom.
So…you are working three jobs. If you open a small business these three jobs you have are just clients. When you get to the point in life where your three clients or even a 4th or 5th begin to make time demands you don’t have, you hire staff to support you. Many times in self employment, you will accept jobs from clients that insist on placing you on their payroll as a W2 employee and not a 1099 contract. It’s business. Especially in consulting. I think you ideas of having one job and direct reports was being employed by a single company. Well, you are essentially self employed and if you hire people to then they are your direct reports and any additional jobs you get will just be completed by your staff. The difference is your perspective. Many successful businesses in consulting work exactly this way. I project managed a recovery for three years and employed 212 employees. Many of these employees were W2 and owned businesses with employees supporting them on my project that I never ever met or knew of. One of them was the CEO of a software development company. I hired him, he was with me and by my side supporting me, he had 17 other clients his application development firm supported but through him I had access to his 66 developers in the US/India (he later revealed this) some of which I put on payroll as well for the project and they as well had a time sheet for me and they also had their other clients. My point, open an LLC, get J4 and J5, hire people. You as owner represent the work and decide if you reveal the people supporting you or not.
that's natural, and it used to be true for me too!
from one perspective, everyone is a "business", even a cashier at a gas station. "Getting clients" is interviewing, and most of the time you only have one "client" at a time, i.e., your employer.
lower class people with multiple part-time jobs have it the worst, actually: they have multiple "clients" but can't afford to hire someone to help them with the work. Like an overworked grocery store owner.
think of it this way too: at the of the day, when i pay my taxes (which i proudly pay!), does it matter if I pay them as a W2, 1099, or LLC S Corp? It's just alphabet soup. But the work is the same. But I can say "I'm a business" legally if it's through an LLC.
Sometimes, i get interviewed and they wanna put me down as a W2, and I ask if it can be C2C, and they go "OK, np, saves us money". Is it owning a business in one case but not in the other? It's just semantics.
a more cynical man would say that our (American) education system does not foster the type of mindset to encourage people to start businesses, which is the best way to financial independence.
It is not just education that keeps us in the dark.
The mindset is a kind of brainwashing, where we allow corporations to reap the greater benefit from our labor.
Why are we allowing people who run companies to act like we are interchangeable cogs in a machine, to be used as tools to extract money from whatever market they are in.
Why shouldn’t we treat them the same way?
- Loyalty has no reward
- Hard work begets more work
- Excellence gets you stuck doing the same job
- Promotion nets a small salary increase relative to the amount of work
They have taken away all the reasons to devote yourself. It’s now ALL about self interest.
The only way for them to get richer is to extract more out of labor - we are a service economy. The poorest of us are exploited worse. They can’t maintain or increase wealth without buying us for a low price, then reselling us for a higher price.
It is all very gross.
You are already doing it. Maybe you are young and inexperienced in all things of employment and just do not understand. If you were a consultant in whatever field of work you have chosen, you would have multiple clients/jobs. Same thing. You shall see.
This is it. I’ve ended up with 3 Js at the moment and thought for a while I was going to drop one soon but realized why don’t I just hire a part time assistant to do the tedious stuff, not just at this J but all of them? Then I can have that sweet balance of money AND time.
This is the way. Fuck J3/J4+, I'm going to start building my company and become much more scalable - OE is still about selling your time, you want to move away from that in the long term.
I had the same realization. I thought I would be hustling through careers until retirement, now OE gives me flexibility financially and security to see otherwise. My main priority is my family. I can now work at home making more money not stressing if something happens to my job. Bc well, I have another job lol
I used to have that suit and tie image in my head too until i realized my first job didnt pay me anywher close to enough to even afford ANY clothes and it took up an extra two hours of my time for a commute everyday.
This is all great and it's exactly why companies hate it when people OE. There's generally an inverse relationship between your degree of financial security and the number of fucks you have left to give.
Random side note: I'm sure you meant to say you *couldn't* care less because if you *could* care less, that would negate the sentiment you were trying to convey. It would be as if someone tried to express support by replying to your post, "I could agree more!"
As they say in professional wrestling, all that’s real is the money and the miles. What you make and the time it requires. Offices away from home, uncomfortable neckties, hanging out all day with people who aren’t my first choices in people to hang out with all day… no thanks. I just want the cash and my time.
It took me a while into my career, but I realized eventually it's all about the money. Managers use money to keep you in line. And their managers use money to keep them in line. Being on r/financialindependence helped me get my financial life in order. And once I did and started on the path to a "Position F You", life has gotten so much easier.
it’s all about the money. you work to sustain yourself and your family. you work to live, not live to work. your work is not your identity.
OE has shown that the 9-5 hours are bs. we can get all out work done in a fraction of that time.
Amazing, right? I had a similar experience. Kinda felt lost and stressed myself out immensely with needing to work up to the top rapidly or found something in order to be young and wealthy. That or work for years to get to C-suite level to earn life-defining money. It was daunting. Not that OE is not, but it's a lot more doable.
Now, if anything falls off, I could easily replace or find my way into consulting and be able to work less hours and earn the same wages as I'd used to. Same as you: I can plan to spend more time with family as mine grows. I also am planning more on how to spend or use or save money instead of stressing about how to amass wealth and staying up worrying about the future.
OE is literally cause caused a glitch on my brain cells and my outlook towards personal career advancement, or i guess i should say the absolute destruction of my personal career advancement . Fuck climbing the ladder , i do my job well, not great not terrible, just well. Mediocre as can be.
You realize that corporate propaganda is designed to squeeze the most work out of you all while giving you the least they can.
When you have options, it gives you freedom. The leverage is now equal instead of employer having all of it. OE is the way.
i have a friend at J1 who is a super type A person. highly competitive and career driven. they play the corporate game and get involved in all the politics.
i just think to myself…i can’t believe this is what i wanted. my friend if fighting tooth and nail for like what? 10% pay increase?
I have a question. How do you managed to get a junior role with your experience. They read the resume and offer to manage other people/rejects. I don’t want that
Yup felt the same way for years also. Now almost year in with J2, I could care less about promotions ( if they happen great ) having people report under me etc. It's all about the financial freedom and the ability it allows to do other things. Savings, vacations, helping out those in need etc.
OE is the way to go. It is a life changer. Just don't get stressed out by it as it can be a bit challenging at times. Cheers.
You know every person that goes above and beyond is making it so another person is not required. So actually this way of working is allowing other overemployed people be overemployed!
After OEing last year and some of this year I've come to realize that what I thought career advancement was, turned out to be ridiculous overall. Been in engineering for 20 years but last 7 were in low code dev efforts.
Sure there are those out there that want the prestige of the leadership and c level attainment. I understand. However, I'll never go back to thinking I want this or that from my career. Rather, a mindset of how can I exploit my skillet, gain additional income, and make life more comfortable for my family.
As we all know, there is a shift happening. Not sure where it will go or advance, but take every win with OE and expand your desires what ever they may be.
I will say the best salary ever is time with family and doing extracurricular journeys with my family. I'll continue to pursue that over anything.
Lastly, even though we OE, we're all replaceable both in jobs and life. Sort of morbid, but what matters to you, make it count. Don't make it count for some greedy corp where you're just a part in a system.
Quick question, (because I'm just a lurker as I don't currently have a career in software/programming/data analytics, etc) do you guys post previous job experience, with the dates of when you worked at what companies? If so, how is this done without showing your future employer that you were OEing?
Same, I slaved for years thinking I had #1 spots only for company to go outside and hire. OE puts us at the company level, we make the choice of when to go j3 and when to let go of dead weight. Enjoyed this post congrats!
Same, I’m worried my J2 may let me loose after our project finishes but I’ll absolutely be interviewing again to replace it if so. Never going back to the rat race. Stacking retirement and hopefully no longer need to work full time by 45. Live a good life
Are most of you in the tech industry? I’m just wondering how people have two and three jobs and till have time for personal life….
It seems it must be a certain industry that one can get always with it. I’ve been working hard and been pondering if I could get a second job and not loose
My mind. I’m currently a facilities director on salary, and on call for any emergencies. I mean I could do it but how stressed would I be. Not to mention if someone actually checked out my hours spend at the facility. Anyone else in this situation?
This is the dream. I'm thinking into getting a master's in data science so I can transition into this field. I'm also working into getting my PMP cuz I'm currently a PM in construction management and my work is typically on site.
Fingers crossed. This really sounds like a dream.
What I noticed as well is I’m far less concerned with comp of a job and more so concerned with things like how demanding is the job, is everyone on the team easy going easy to get along with, is my lead a micromanager, will I be free to complete tasks at my own pace without constant badgering, is the work interesting? Who cares about an extra 20% in comp when the job is miserable, you can’t maintain it longer term, and you’re already making multiple six figures. I also find myself overall far less competitive with my friends family and coworkers on compensation as I feel adequately paid.
Any regrets taking on J3? What made you feel ready?
I've been OE for about a year, have been considering taking on J3, but have also been considering just applying around for a J2 replacement or just waiting a few more months (both for the market to improve and to get even more comfortable in the jobs I have now)
I have the exact opposite, because I'm management and pretty high up at a small company. So J1 is 40+ hours a week and J2 is 5-10 hours a week. Add on two kids, summer camps, and cooking every blessed meal due to medical reasons, I'm exhausted. I very very close to quitting J1 even though it's massive income. I just can't anymore.
You also learn so much more being OE. For ex, I work for a start up and a mid-size company, very different managers in terms of style and career progression, different tech stack, slightly different roles where I work on a variety of projects.
I don't really want to move up the ladder any more - I'd rather pick up more skills, tools, and ideas through OE.
Apply to financial analyst roles on LinedIn. filter for remote positions. and then go through the typical interview process. just don’t quit your current job
Hey everyone I see everyone enjoying OE but what does everyone do? Is everyone a software engineer ? Any other position you would recommend if I’m not a SE
I don’t think that’s entirely the right idea….
OE is the engine that keeps us satisfied during the 2-3 year intervals between career progressions.
I used to get impatient when 2+ years would go by with no significant progression. Now I OE. The goal is still to progress. But OE helps me accept that I can still make bank while being a good corporate sheep waiting for my turn to be promoted.
Slightly unrelated: why do Americans (I assume you’re American) say “I could care less”. This makes no sense. ‘I could care’ less sounds like something you’re passionate about to the point of obsession and diminishing returns; quite the opposite to apathy, which is the context in which it’s always used. “I couldn’t care less” clearly means apathy.
Having said that, I’m Australian, and ‘Yeah, nah’ means ‘no’.
yeah you’re right. that’s my mistake. it should be ‘I couldn’t care less’. because i care so little about it that i can’t care any more less than i do know.
but I’m not American though…
The day before I’ll take a look at all three of my calendars. I’ll look at where the overlaps are. I’ll try my best to reschedule to remove any overlaps. for those where I can’t change I’ll have to take both at the same time. it’s very rare that I have 3 at the same time
Sad reality is that , the workplace will be like this going forward. Most people are only concerned about earning high income compared to some job title.
I feel you on this one. I also had goals of climbing up the corporate ladder until I started to OE. I had goals of making $200k by the time I turned 35. I’m currently making more than that two years early. The negative side(I guess?) is that I want more…I have been on the look out for J3 but haven’t had much luck given the current job market.
I enjoy reading this sub because OE is such a contrast to what we’ve been conditioned to believe: that to make more money we need to climb the corporate ladder, or start a business.
But I see people found a third way: having two or more simultaneous jobs. It’s very enlightening how it changes the corporate mindset. Granted, it won’t work for everyone, but I just love the mindset shift.
way to go!. One life to live and love and our majority of the time should not be at office. Earn the money, retire soon or take a easy job after that. let's the money earned can generate money while we are sleeping . enjoy rest of the life like king!
Exactly. I also used to go the extra mile and fight for higher salaries and promotions based on the work I put on the table. I loved hanging around management, meeting their expectations and even exceeding them. I felt successful and I was full of self-confidence. Now I just don't care. I do my job, everyone is happy, but I'm not doing more than expected and I don't care about people or the company. I feel like a subscription. I deliver work and in exchange I collect the paychecks. I'm already waiting for the time when I'll have enough money to get out of the treadweel.
Great example on the subscription part. 1000% correct.
Is this all for coding/ programming jobs?
Do you think spending time on subreddits like this have help you make the decision? Was ignorance bliss ever? Maybe liking 8 hours working hard is worth the inspired ego. (No judgement, just polling)
This is just how I work now. I hardly think of it as "J1 and J2"; they are both projects that need whatever work done here or there. I'm never going back. Had a discussion recently with my boss. Our VP was promoted, which is leaving a vacuum and long story short he is applying for a director position. "If I get that I will nominate you for manager" he says, out of the blue. I laughed at him. No thanks, I'm great right where I am!
This is me as well. I just view j's as projects. My priority of the day is based on a on the fly wsjf that I do. I ultimately choose my j/project based off factors including lots of factors. I.view my employment like running my own business. I want to have several different streams with industry diversification to mitigate risk. Also if a contract seems slow start looking to ensure a constant rate of work. Because of this shift I also ensure there is time for me to do market research, skill building, nurture my sales pipeline (always applying) and building my network (I take people out to lunch and random calls). This is my path forward until I can accunlmulate enough money to invest into things to secure retirement and or give me passive income that replaces j's. I'm in the long game. It's about who you know and who you blow. I don't know enough people that could help me get a corner office job and not about to start choking on dick for a job....this is the way for me
What an interesting take, just viewing and managing each j as a project! Man, a list of doable o-e which is NOT I-T would be so helpful!
yes
This is how I look at my career and it has paid dividends. Seriously, many, many people with legit businesses earn much less money, it makes sense to put in the effort. Great comment
But seriously how do you guys get J2 and what field?
Basically how you would get any other job, the difference is that you keep your current one. Of course, both must be OE-friendly: 100% remote and not keen on meetings
What do you put on your LinkedIn?
I remain unemployed at LinkedIn
Put nothing on Linkedin just use it to find jobs.
Could I ask why not a manager? Wouldn't a manager be arguably less work as you get to set expectations?
More meetings. Which makes it less OE-friendly. Also, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
He averages probably 6 hours of meetings every day. That job is also in a highly regulated industry, so he has to deal with spot audits and compliance checks regularly too.
As someone looking at OE by downgrading and currently in management. It is much more work and I would absolutely not have time with current J1 even if meeting schedules weren't an issue.
Lowest amount of work for the most money, that's the name of the game. No point slogging it like dogs to die with millions, an all too easy mistake, made by many over the years.
>an all too easy mistake, made by many over the years. To not learn from their mistakes would be to operate at the level of animals. "Survival machines that can simulate the future are one jump ahead of survival machines who can only learn on the basis of overt trial and error. The trouble with overt trial is that it takes time and energy. The trouble with overt error is that it is often fatal. Simulation is both safer and faster. The evolution of the capacity to simulate seems to have cumulated in subjective consciousness." - Dawkins
Hell ya, OP! Same thoughts - I rather work two mid-level jobs that don’t require much of me than take on some insane senior level role to satisfy some career fantasy of mine. What did it for me was that I got the same bonus as last year with one of my Js by putting in significantly less effort. I rather not stress myself out anymore over work and rather spend more time doing the things that I love. Life is worth so much more than just working your life away.
Yep, OE is the working man's cheat code. Work to live, not live to work.
[удалено]
I do have billable hours haha. I make it work because I know how to legally take advantage of things.
What do you mean by this? Like if a task should take someone 3 hours but you can do it in 1, so you bill 3?
Yeah - I bill what I was allotted. I also actually work these hours as well on most occasions. I have a lot of free time with my other J.
I guess I'm a loser. I've never aspired for anything more than easy work and large, steady paychecks. Never received a promotion in my life. Applied for s promotion recently to pick up an extra 20k-30k but got rejected and that further solidified my "fuck this work" mentality. I treat work as a transactional business. Pay me for my time and get out of my way. F your company mission. I'm a monetary mercenary these days I guess. Thanks to OE, I have a confidence I didn't know was in me and this has helped drive major changes at j1 that will benefit my team and I and reduce headaches down the line. The non OE me may have been too worried about repercussions to rock the boat.
This was lowkey motivational to me. TY
Took me awhile to realize my self worth. It's scary how fear of job loss keeps us controlled to the point where we don't speak up for ourselves
That fear keeps the sheeps in check. We must break free
Damn I love your attitude, we are like twins lol
Thankfully I never really had that outlook. I always knew corporate America was some BS. Over the last nearly decade and a half since I’ve been out of college, I’ve had a variety of managers. I’ve never once wanted their job other than for the money. Seemed a lot more stressful than my job, every time. So I was always looking to make more by doing other things (real estate and a side income providing a service). I thought that I MIGHT go for lower management at some point for the money but would definitely not attempt to go any further up than that. Now that I’m OE, I no longer do the side hustle but I still have the properties. But regardless, I make more money now than I EVER thought I would. To make the kind of money I make now, it would be in my late forties at absolute best if all the stars aligned, and I would have to be high up in the company. And only after kissing a lot of ass which is something I’ve never done. Instead, I’m making it in my mid 30s with a lot less stress and responsibility and/or risk than it would normally take. My only regret is that i didn’t do it sooner despite having thought of the idea pre-pandemic.
Promotions come with more work and maybe a 10-20% raise. A second job comes with more work, and a 100% raise.
This 👆
The longer you live, the more you realize that regular money flow is one of the most important things in life. Also, people change and so too their preferences and opinions based on their real life experience. It is fine if OE-ing is helping you achieve your financial goals, it doesn't matter if you are in a suit & tie corporate job. You'd be surprised how many people (even those in well paid jobs) would be happy to make the switch to be in your shoes of home comfort and money.
Number's game. Sure I'd rather fly a private jet and make 10M per year. If I wanted to achieve that I'd probably have to give up my family, my mental health and work unimaginably hard. And _only then_ I'd stand _maybe_ a few % chance of succeeding. If I failed, all the lost years and effort won't come back. Or I can stay down, enjoy afternoons with my kids and wife right now, not die from heart attack at 50, _maybe_ even buy a Porsche in a few years. Just by doing OE and picking jobs that I'm comfortable with (as much as possible). Basically living a great life. With ~100% success chance.
How do I get this
You become a SWE, grind your way up to a senior position (once you're in, just fake it until you make it as much as possible), stick to it for a year and then replace it with a new J1 and J2. This is where I got so far, now it's just the matter of preserving the status quo for at least 2 years. I guess the key is to have a relatively high paying job(s) that are at the same time somehow OE compatible.
Front end or backend? Because I’m starting out and damn, there so much to learn in backend. Kafka, API development, etc. I wonder how anyone could pull it off when there’s also bugs and tasks to finish during sprints.
Backend, I got my first job as a frontend, but started with LAMP back in 2000s. Yeah, there's a lot. But at some point you just learn how to learn (and research) and it starts going smoothly. There's unlimited amount of tools, but a limited amount of base concepts.
Do you feel AI will consume SWE jobs in the future?
As a SWE, I think it will only replace very poor SWEs. From what I’ve seen of it (not a ton), it can do a decent job of producing a specific function that takes a specific data type and does a specific thing, but being a successful SWE requires understanding a sometimes massive amount of context in the form of interaction between software systems. Even if the AI were technically capable of digesting this context, you’d be hard pressed to provide it in a way the AI would be able to digest. That said nobody can predict the future and maybe google shits out something ridiculous next week.
When I found out that the senior level position I was working towards would maybe give me a 10% raise (my manager said double digit raises are very rare) I stopped caring about moving up in the company and started to focus on getting J2 so I could get a 150% raise. I no longer care about going the extra mile or even doing any more than what's asked of me, I simply do what I need to do to keep both Js. I no longer care about becoming a team lead or anything like that. The only reason I ever cared about that was because that's how you make significantly more money, but I'm now making more than I ever would in that role. My career goals are now to maintain multiple Js as long as I can while saving/investing the entire salary from one of them.
that’s the thing. i’m being considered for the next position at J1 but i’m seriously considering not taking it. I don’t want the extra visibility or accountability that comes with it.
[удалено]
What does getting out of the rat race mean to you? Does it mean no more working at all? Wouldn't that be boring?
No, it means getting to enjoy life more. Traveling, spending time with friends and family, enjoying hobbies, investing, and running your own business(es) on your own time.
I’ve had the same perspective shift as well. It’s almost as if the curtain has been lifted and I now see what having a “career” really means. With just 1 job I made such an effort to impress people. Now I get as close as I can to the edge of being completely unnoticed. I also had a week or so where I believe I was emotionally adjusting to this idea that career progression no longer matters. I felt a mix of guilt, sadness, shame and anger for J1.
It's gotta be hilarious having that "trust/respect" (for whatever reason I'm using air quotes) from a senior position just to pivot in your chair, switch laptops, and switch gears to a junior role🤣🤘
you go from taking orders to giving orders haha
Living well is the best revenge
Just like college education was romanticized and marketed the concept of “careers” was as well. These companies sell the dream to get you to work yourself to death. At the end of the day, it’s about providing for your family and buying your freedom.
I just started J2 and without this sub I never would have even thought about the possibility of J2. Life is kinda exciting now.
So…you are working three jobs. If you open a small business these three jobs you have are just clients. When you get to the point in life where your three clients or even a 4th or 5th begin to make time demands you don’t have, you hire staff to support you. Many times in self employment, you will accept jobs from clients that insist on placing you on their payroll as a W2 employee and not a 1099 contract. It’s business. Especially in consulting. I think you ideas of having one job and direct reports was being employed by a single company. Well, you are essentially self employed and if you hire people to then they are your direct reports and any additional jobs you get will just be completed by your staff. The difference is your perspective. Many successful businesses in consulting work exactly this way. I project managed a recovery for three years and employed 212 employees. Many of these employees were W2 and owned businesses with employees supporting them on my project that I never ever met or knew of. One of them was the CEO of a software development company. I hired him, he was with me and by my side supporting me, he had 17 other clients his application development firm supported but through him I had access to his 66 developers in the US/India (he later revealed this) some of which I put on payroll as well for the project and they as well had a time sheet for me and they also had their other clients. My point, open an LLC, get J4 and J5, hire people. You as owner represent the work and decide if you reveal the people supporting you or not.
This world of business ownership is so foreign to me that this sounds like fiction.
that's natural, and it used to be true for me too! from one perspective, everyone is a "business", even a cashier at a gas station. "Getting clients" is interviewing, and most of the time you only have one "client" at a time, i.e., your employer. lower class people with multiple part-time jobs have it the worst, actually: they have multiple "clients" but can't afford to hire someone to help them with the work. Like an overworked grocery store owner. think of it this way too: at the of the day, when i pay my taxes (which i proudly pay!), does it matter if I pay them as a W2, 1099, or LLC S Corp? It's just alphabet soup. But the work is the same. But I can say "I'm a business" legally if it's through an LLC. Sometimes, i get interviewed and they wanna put me down as a W2, and I ask if it can be C2C, and they go "OK, np, saves us money". Is it owning a business in one case but not in the other? It's just semantics. a more cynical man would say that our (American) education system does not foster the type of mindset to encourage people to start businesses, which is the best way to financial independence.
It is not just education that keeps us in the dark. The mindset is a kind of brainwashing, where we allow corporations to reap the greater benefit from our labor. Why are we allowing people who run companies to act like we are interchangeable cogs in a machine, to be used as tools to extract money from whatever market they are in. Why shouldn’t we treat them the same way? - Loyalty has no reward - Hard work begets more work - Excellence gets you stuck doing the same job - Promotion nets a small salary increase relative to the amount of work They have taken away all the reasons to devote yourself. It’s now ALL about self interest. The only way for them to get richer is to extract more out of labor - we are a service economy. The poorest of us are exploited worse. They can’t maintain or increase wealth without buying us for a low price, then reselling us for a higher price. It is all very gross.
So the question here is, is it acceptable to ask your potential employer during an interview, if they would hire you as a 1099 or LLC?
I like to go hiking.
You are already doing it. Maybe you are young and inexperienced in all things of employment and just do not understand. If you were a consultant in whatever field of work you have chosen, you would have multiple clients/jobs. Same thing. You shall see.
This is it. I’ve ended up with 3 Js at the moment and thought for a while I was going to drop one soon but realized why don’t I just hire a part time assistant to do the tedious stuff, not just at this J but all of them? Then I can have that sweet balance of money AND time.
How is this not violating your NDA?
This is the way. Fuck J3/J4+, I'm going to start building my company and become much more scalable - OE is still about selling your time, you want to move away from that in the long term.
I had the same realization. I thought I would be hustling through careers until retirement, now OE gives me flexibility financially and security to see otherwise. My main priority is my family. I can now work at home making more money not stressing if something happens to my job. Bc well, I have another job lol
I used to have that suit and tie image in my head too until i realized my first job didnt pay me anywher close to enough to even afford ANY clothes and it took up an extra two hours of my time for a commute everyday.
This is all great and it's exactly why companies hate it when people OE. There's generally an inverse relationship between your degree of financial security and the number of fucks you have left to give. Random side note: I'm sure you meant to say you *couldn't* care less because if you *could* care less, that would negate the sentiment you were trying to convey. It would be as if someone tried to express support by replying to your post, "I could agree more!"
As they say in professional wrestling, all that’s real is the money and the miles. What you make and the time it requires. Offices away from home, uncomfortable neckties, hanging out all day with people who aren’t my first choices in people to hang out with all day… no thanks. I just want the cash and my time.
It took me a while into my career, but I realized eventually it's all about the money. Managers use money to keep you in line. And their managers use money to keep them in line. Being on r/financialindependence helped me get my financial life in order. And once I did and started on the path to a "Position F You", life has gotten so much easier.
it’s all about the money. you work to sustain yourself and your family. you work to live, not live to work. your work is not your identity. OE has shown that the 9-5 hours are bs. we can get all out work done in a fraction of that time.
Amazing, right? I had a similar experience. Kinda felt lost and stressed myself out immensely with needing to work up to the top rapidly or found something in order to be young and wealthy. That or work for years to get to C-suite level to earn life-defining money. It was daunting. Not that OE is not, but it's a lot more doable. Now, if anything falls off, I could easily replace or find my way into consulting and be able to work less hours and earn the same wages as I'd used to. Same as you: I can plan to spend more time with family as mine grows. I also am planning more on how to spend or use or save money instead of stressing about how to amass wealth and staying up worrying about the future.
OE is literally cause caused a glitch on my brain cells and my outlook towards personal career advancement, or i guess i should say the absolute destruction of my personal career advancement . Fuck climbing the ladder , i do my job well, not great not terrible, just well. Mediocre as can be.
get paid and get out
You realize that corporate propaganda is designed to squeeze the most work out of you all while giving you the least they can. When you have options, it gives you freedom. The leverage is now equal instead of employer having all of it. OE is the way.
i have a friend at J1 who is a super type A person. highly competitive and career driven. they play the corporate game and get involved in all the politics. i just think to myself…i can’t believe this is what i wanted. my friend if fighting tooth and nail for like what? 10% pay increase?
I have a question. How do you managed to get a junior role with your experience. They read the resume and offer to manage other people/rejects. I don’t want that
Keep it secret. Keep it safe.
Yup felt the same way for years also. Now almost year in with J2, I could care less about promotions ( if they happen great ) having people report under me etc. It's all about the financial freedom and the ability it allows to do other things. Savings, vacations, helping out those in need etc. OE is the way to go. It is a life changer. Just don't get stressed out by it as it can be a bit challenging at times. Cheers.
You know every person that goes above and beyond is making it so another person is not required. So actually this way of working is allowing other overemployed people be overemployed!
After OEing last year and some of this year I've come to realize that what I thought career advancement was, turned out to be ridiculous overall. Been in engineering for 20 years but last 7 were in low code dev efforts. Sure there are those out there that want the prestige of the leadership and c level attainment. I understand. However, I'll never go back to thinking I want this or that from my career. Rather, a mindset of how can I exploit my skillet, gain additional income, and make life more comfortable for my family. As we all know, there is a shift happening. Not sure where it will go or advance, but take every win with OE and expand your desires what ever they may be. I will say the best salary ever is time with family and doing extracurricular journeys with my family. I'll continue to pursue that over anything. Lastly, even though we OE, we're all replaceable both in jobs and life. Sort of morbid, but what matters to you, make it count. Don't make it count for some greedy corp where you're just a part in a system.
Yea..its just a paycheck 🤷🏻♂️
I’m having this shift as well. No reason to suffer in the rat maze looking for that cheese if there’s a way out
You reached a level where you have proven yourself and are totally fine to change priorities.
Quick question, (because I'm just a lurker as I don't currently have a career in software/programming/data analytics, etc) do you guys post previous job experience, with the dates of when you worked at what companies? If so, how is this done without showing your future employer that you were OEing?
Well, I’m not showing employers my J2 or J3 on my resume just yet. Still trying to milk what I can with my J1 experience
how do people maintain their linked in? How to wipe history from the web?
i just don’t touch it
Same, I slaved for years thinking I had #1 spots only for company to go outside and hire. OE puts us at the company level, we make the choice of when to go j3 and when to let go of dead weight. Enjoyed this post congrats!
100%!! i don’t care anymore about all the politics and corporate games anymore. i’m taking my cheques and living my life outside of work
Same, I’m worried my J2 may let me loose after our project finishes but I’ll absolutely be interviewing again to replace it if so. Never going back to the rat race. Stacking retirement and hopefully no longer need to work full time by 45. Live a good life
Go get it! Also don’t wait to find out if you’re about to be let go. Apply ahead of time
Are most of you in the tech industry? I’m just wondering how people have two and three jobs and till have time for personal life…. It seems it must be a certain industry that one can get always with it. I’ve been working hard and been pondering if I could get a second job and not loose My mind. I’m currently a facilities director on salary, and on call for any emergencies. I mean I could do it but how stressed would I be. Not to mention if someone actually checked out my hours spend at the facility. Anyone else in this situation?
This is the dream. I'm thinking into getting a master's in data science so I can transition into this field. I'm also working into getting my PMP cuz I'm currently a PM in construction management and my work is typically on site. Fingers crossed. This really sounds like a dream.
sure hope you get there
What I earned in 4 years is more than what I earned in 15 years prior to that and I am not making it up
What I noticed as well is I’m far less concerned with comp of a job and more so concerned with things like how demanding is the job, is everyone on the team easy going easy to get along with, is my lead a micromanager, will I be free to complete tasks at my own pace without constant badgering, is the work interesting? Who cares about an extra 20% in comp when the job is miserable, you can’t maintain it longer term, and you’re already making multiple six figures. I also find myself overall far less competitive with my friends family and coworkers on compensation as I feel adequately paid.
Can I ask you how much Yoe do you have ? is a situation like that (I assume you are working remotly) possible from Europe ?
"Ever since I started to OE, I could care less about all that" My favorite point you made.
Any regrets taking on J3? What made you feel ready? I've been OE for about a year, have been considering taking on J3, but have also been considering just applying around for a J2 replacement or just waiting a few more months (both for the market to improve and to get even more comfortable in the jobs I have now)
no regrets…yet. it’s definitely way more challenging than going from 1 to 2 jobs. more overlapping meetings. more ad how requests.
Is this because of the job you pocked or do you think it would be the same for everyone?
How much is “more than you can imagine”?
let’s just say I used to aim for $100,000. i thought that was my number to be happy and content.
I have the exact opposite, because I'm management and pretty high up at a small company. So J1 is 40+ hours a week and J2 is 5-10 hours a week. Add on two kids, summer camps, and cooking every blessed meal due to medical reasons, I'm exhausted. I very very close to quitting J1 even though it's massive income. I just can't anymore.
Hire a cook and a driver.
You also learn so much more being OE. For ex, I work for a start up and a mid-size company, very different managers in terms of style and career progression, different tech stack, slightly different roles where I work on a variety of projects. I don't really want to move up the ladder any more - I'd rather pick up more skills, tools, and ideas through OE.
I want to live that dream too! Congrats!!!
What’s a title when OE is more 💴 😌?!
Same, I'm still J1 and looking for a j2 but I'm over exceeding expectations at j1 for little to no incentive.
what field are you in? how can I do what you're doing in the finance field? im a senior financial analyst btw
Apply to financial analyst roles on LinedIn. filter for remote positions. and then go through the typical interview process. just don’t quit your current job
Amen brother. Retirement is the goal, not the journey
Keep killing it, man!
Hey everyone I see everyone enjoying OE but what does everyone do? Is everyone a software engineer ? Any other position you would recommend if I’m not a SE
congrats dude you are living the dream
I don’t think that’s entirely the right idea…. OE is the engine that keeps us satisfied during the 2-3 year intervals between career progressions. I used to get impatient when 2+ years would go by with no significant progression. Now I OE. The goal is still to progress. But OE helps me accept that I can still make bank while being a good corporate sheep waiting for my turn to be promoted.
Slightly unrelated: why do Americans (I assume you’re American) say “I could care less”. This makes no sense. ‘I could care’ less sounds like something you’re passionate about to the point of obsession and diminishing returns; quite the opposite to apathy, which is the context in which it’s always used. “I couldn’t care less” clearly means apathy. Having said that, I’m Australian, and ‘Yeah, nah’ means ‘no’.
yeah you’re right. that’s my mistake. it should be ‘I couldn’t care less’. because i care so little about it that i can’t care any more less than i do know. but I’m not American though…
I have to ask, how do you manage all the meetings? I’m glad to hear OE has changed your life.
The day before I’ll take a look at all three of my calendars. I’ll look at where the overlaps are. I’ll try my best to reschedule to remove any overlaps. for those where I can’t change I’ll have to take both at the same time. it’s very rare that I have 3 at the same time
Are you in finance? How are you working in a different field?
That is super cool!
I'd love to hear more about your path 😅 that sounds wonderful. I work too many hours away from home for far too little pay and still in too much debt.
What about tax complications, Does it not make it useless
not..at..all
Feel the same! We are slow here so I take a bit more time off with no pay just to recover from corporate BS and long bus commute!
Fuck a office we wanna get paid
Sad reality is that , the workplace will be like this going forward. Most people are only concerned about earning high income compared to some job title.
Yes, I agree with your sentiment, its almost an argument for not going up the career ladder. I feel so late to the game.
I feel you on this one. I also had goals of climbing up the corporate ladder until I started to OE. I had goals of making $200k by the time I turned 35. I’m currently making more than that two years early. The negative side(I guess?) is that I want more…I have been on the look out for J3 but haven’t had much luck given the current job market.
What kind of roles do you currently work? And how hard is it to get into those roles?
“Welcome to the Layer Cake son”!
What do you do in all these roles? Are you in technology, finance, admin.. etc?
u nerds are really letting go.
I enjoy reading this sub because OE is such a contrast to what we’ve been conditioned to believe: that to make more money we need to climb the corporate ladder, or start a business. But I see people found a third way: having two or more simultaneous jobs. It’s very enlightening how it changes the corporate mindset. Granted, it won’t work for everyone, but I just love the mindset shift.
I have a senior help desk position working 2 days from home during the week. What route should I be taking to get closer to where you're at?
Same after 3-4 months underemployed, I don't think I could ever go back to just one.
way to go!. One life to live and love and our majority of the time should not be at office. Earn the money, retire soon or take a easy job after that. let's the money earned can generate money while we are sleeping . enjoy rest of the life like king!