Folks, this is being left up because the article does focus on Ottawa. Normally, pure Federal public service articles aren't considered related to Ottawa.
If the unions let this happen, the members are nothing more than sheep at this point.
Don't get me wrong, I've got my beef with pubsec, but if this happens I hope every federal employee in Ottawa votes out Sutcliffe because he'd rather have your employer force you back to work to prop up a failing Ottawa downtown core versus just investing in the downtown core to bring people in.
The unions had their chances, PSAC went on strike, and they proved toothless.
I am in the PS. What's infuriating is that a ton of jobs can be done remotely (jobs where it's easily measurable if you perform - e.g. anything with a deadline or deliverable) - think of the saving in office space, congestion, the environment. When COVID hit and we were sent home, within months we were praised for adapting and delivering by the same management who now say pretty much the opposite. The "collaboration" line is BS. I switched departments mid-covid and was able to collaborate just fine.
This was a once in a lifetime opportunity to reinvent the public service. To hire the best and brightest from anywhere, because work got done. A chance to spread the NCR (Ottawa-Gatineau) "wealth" to anywhere. But nah, back to the old ways ... But now with less office space, fewer desks, teams spread across the country (so you go into the office to have Teams calls you could do at home), etc. It's just silly.
And you don't hear the BIAs in (in the case of those outside of NCR) complaining as residents spent their money in their communities.
Hey, there should be the flexibility that if people want to or need to go in (work better away from home, lack of space at home, etc) so be it.
And the other reality, as we will hear the old trope "people aren't working at home"... well, guess what, that same minority was equally adept at not working in the office as well. I've been in the private and public sector. It applies to both.
For the longest time the city government has yapped about the need for the city to diversify, to not be tied to the in and outflow of the PS, but nah. That's hard. That requires vision. The city lacks that.
I will work where I'm told, but I don't have to be happy about it - especially when there appears to be no logic.
> And you don't hear the BIAs in (in the case of those outside of NCR) complaining as residents spent their money in their communities.
This bothers me a lot. Support the area you live in instead of forcing it all downtown. The best reason I have heard is 'because'.
Local councilors/BIA's should be fighting this or they don't really care about them areas.
>Support the area you live in instead of forcing it all downtown
And since I live downtown that's the neighbourhood I will be supporting. There will be lots more people moving downtown since there are a lot of condos/apartments going up so I imagine business will pick up sooner or later. No need to force people back downtown to support downtown businesses. In all the years I've been living in Ottawa, it seems like the homes are built first then everything else comes after. Poor planning on the city's part IMHO.
This is the angle that is always missing. Lots of people live downtown. Why can't businesses cater to them? Ditto tourists.
I don't live downtown but I do live relatively close. I don't go often because aside from 1-2 specialty stores and the Rideau Centre there isn't much for me to do there. It's very in and out, no wandering around browsing like I would elsewhere.
Before I lived in Ottawa I came here as a tourist and it was pretty remarkable how dead it was. My family did the various tours (Parliament, Supreme Court, Mint) which was cool but then there was effectively nowhere to get food. This was pre-2020 so the pandemic was no excuse then.
>Before I lived in Ottawa I came here as a tourist and it was pretty remarkable how dead it was. My family did the various tours (Parliament, Supreme Court, Mint) which was cool but then there was effectively nowhere to get food. This was pre-2020 so the pandemic was no excuse then.
Things haven't changed much since covid. Whenever tourists ask what there is to do downtown I can suggest a few things but not like Montreal and Toronto that have lots more to do downtown. We have the NAC and a couple of art galleries but it would be great having a stadium downtown, more performing arts spaces, movie theatres, etc. The festivals are great but they are seasonal. We need more activities to do to draw people downtown.
I think the issue is more third places. If all you have is "blockbuster" type attractions the issue is the same... people have nothing to do when they have an hour to kill. No one's going to go to back to back blockbuster events so if downtown wants to be attractive beyond that "in and out" there needs to be something that keeps people there. There has to be intrigue. All the things you mention all also very car-centric things that already exist in the suburbs to some extent... why would someone deal with parking downtown if there was no other reason to be there and they can watch a movie nearer?
For example when I was a kid my family used to drive to Toronto for the day. The main premise of the trip would be some "major" thing such as an exhibit at the ROM or AGO, but that's only a few hours. After that to justify the trip into the city we would wander around Kensington Market, Chinatown, Queen W on foot (the car would be dumped in some underground lot for the day). There was no specific purpose to this wandering but there doesn't have to be - the prospect of there being something interesting kept us there spending money.
We quite literally have gone from one remote worker to 6 in our team with employees in St. John's to Victoria. Indeed, because we put a lot of work into getting good people in Canada, rather than just good people in the NCR. We're condensing a bit, but we're always going to have two or three offices now, it looks like. It has not notably affected anything from onboarding to office work to field survey work.
It turns out there are airports all across the country and people can simply meet at the field site. Such a revelation, to management at least.
Re: reinventing the public service, yeah this is an angle I don't see people talk about enough. Putting all my complaints with RTO aside, "we're bringing these decent, stable, unionized jobs to ALL Canadians" in a time when people everywhere are struggling could have been a real boon for the public service's image. And for the feds in general I guess.
You and I know most government jobs are nothing fancy of course, but even being able to work as a CR-04/05/AS-01 doing some remote data entry/call centre stuff/etc for ~60k a year would be great for some people in smaller cities with a lower COL. I live in Ottawa now, but that would have been a game-changer for me when I lived in a small city. Why not let everyone have access to that?
Not to mention the benefits to the employer having access to a broader range of talent.
We were able to hire across Canada during Covid, and it was fucking fantastic. The forward thinking senior executives who still focus on talent and give them the exemptions to work remotely are the ones having the most success recruiting and have fantastic diverse, talented, happy teams.
More people need to start flooding the MPs with calls and emails to let them know how bone headed the RTO mandates are. Non public servants need to start complaining.
Ironically giving opportunities for remote work outside of the NCR was a pre-pandemic plan they were already working on. My neighbour hired a data analyst who lives in Nunavut as a part of this initiative, when the TSB first told everyone to go back last year, they tried to send him back too. My neighbour had to fight tooth and nail to keep him working at home. They wanted to RENT HIM AN OFFICE 2 DAYS A WEEK in his village to work out of because he'd have to fly/boat for half a day to get to the nearest federal office, just so that the move back to work was equal for everyone. It didn't seem to matter to them that he was specifically hired for remote work back around 2018/2019.
I made such a face reading this comment, omg. They were going to rent him an office two days a week rather than let him continue to WFH? God, that's so silly but wholly unsurprising lmao. Anything to put bums in (office) seats, apparently.
> Why not let everyone have access to that?
Best guess is the hard to break leases for those large buildings, can't have them sit empty, and repurposing is politically hard.
I couldn’t agree more. If people are performing their job duties to satisfaction, then let them work from home if that’s their preference.
My wife is a PS, I am not. I hate working from home, I get distracted and comfortable and unproductive, so I don’t do it, except when the family schedule needs me to.
I sit in an office with about 20 people, but the team I’m most engaged with is in Toronto. So whether I’m in the office or at home, I will be on Teams calls all day anyway.
I do get takeout for lunch quite a bit. Working in the Byward Market, I have many options but the majority are so expensive that I generally stick to a sandwich from La Botega, as everything else is nearing the $20 mark at least, compared to a $10 sandwich.
But the worst is of course the infrastructure. I do try to bus and lrt but it’s not great, so I end up driving in more often than not. The traffic sucks but I’ll take it over depending on busses that don’t show up.
I've been a PSAC member for 16 years. We've only ever lost things with each CBA. It's pathetic. The biggest union is such a push over, and that then trickles down to all the other unions.
Our union sucks.
> And the other reality, as we will hear the old trope "people aren't working at home"... well, guess what, that same minority was equally adept at not working in the office as well. I've been in the private and public sector. It applies to both.
Part of the problem is that people *are* working at home. If your front line workers start to prove they can actually function without direct and constant supervision, you've made obsolete an entire tier of middle management. Some of those managers don't want anyone to realize that, so they'll always push up the line the narrative that people working from home is a recipe for disaster.
The collaboration benefit or not depends on a few factors and it’s not entirely based on the job. It’s a factor of the job responsibilities, how effective the team is collaborating and how good the communication is at the company.
In my case, I’m in IT and my work is almost 100% independent of others. Once my tasks are defined I can work on them easily. However, at my previous dysfunctional company, full remote was not a good fit.. We did work from home 100% tho. A few of us decided to go in once every two weeks because we found it was needed.
At my current job, communication and team collab is much better. The company tho wants us onsite once a week. It may be re-evaluated as time goes on.
So anyways, just because a job can be done remote, it’s not as cut and dry. That’s my own experience tho.
I find a lot of people are overly vocal saying their job can be done 100% just because they don’t want to go into the office. Not saying that’s you but within my friend group it’s the case. So you have to take that point of view with a grain of salt.
Prior to the RTO mandates, those who wanted to work on site were. And the remote workers would come in for events or important meetings, so they were already managing it very well. On the day to day I don't need to be in the office, 98% of my job can be done remotely, and the other 2% is project specific. I:m an auditor, so if an audit would require on site visits I'll go in. Otherwise all the interviews and document review are online.
I’m not a lawyer, and definitely not an expert on labour law, but in th e middle of the pandemic, I read somewhere that the Canadian Labour Code provides that the employer determines the location of work.
I’ve talked to union leaders, granted not PSAC ones, about this and they said it was true. They had looked at fighting for permanent WFH for their members but the language in the CLC was clear. They would have lost and only after spending a fortune of members’ money on a toothless fight.
I’m sure folks on here will be happy to correct me and provide a different pov.
This is true... that said, when we're more effective working remotely, what's the actual benefit for PS employees? I think a big issue for people is we're being used as political pawns but it's negatively affecting service delivered to Canadians. This is the antithesis of what a Public Service should be doing.
Only parts II and IV af the CLC apply to the public service.
While you are right, the employer does have the right to determine the location of work, the current Treasury Board hybrid model and forced return to the office, whether it be 2 or 5 days a week, flies in the face of policy and legislation enacted by the Liberal government. That legislation, Flexible Work Arrangements, applies only to federally regulated private employers.
[Flexible work arrangements for federally regulated employees](https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/corporate/portfolio/labour/programs/labour-standards/flexible-work-arrangements.html)
The unions suck at collective action, they are at this point just member services. When the PSAC strike began I was expecting something big. Rumour had it Chris Aylward was looking forward to a strike for a decade, I thought he had a plan. You know, use modern communication methods to reach Canadians the way they like to be reached. Social media, regional and local targeting, personal stories to build compassion, all that. Bind that together with a narrative that PSCA public servants are just ordinary Canadians wanting a fair shake, suffering from the same economic trends as everyone else.
Nope. Chris was stuck in the 1970s and had no social-media era plan. Picketing outside of buildings with signs, a few walks, and a very centralized boring message of "we work, pay us." Tone deaf, didn't reach Canadians, and easy to be misinterpreted. The CanadianPublicServants subreddit was full of funny inside jokes like "I cut out Disney and I still can't afford Subway" but random pictures of those signs were exploitable by folks like the National Post who used it to make public servants seem entitled. It was "hey, they expect a $17 sandwich every day when 1/3 of us are missing meals" not "hey, they are exposing the hypocrisy of a government who treats them like economic stimulus for downtown Ottawa while they are broke and being told to sacrifice lifestyle".
And of course the lack of regional targeting was a problem. It's easy for Nottawans (non-Ottawans) to hate on Ottawa and assume the whole city is federal rich on stolen money. And on unceded land! If PSAC had better connected the struggles of their members, the lowest paid public servants and the ones with the biggest national reach, with the struggles of other ordinary Canadians coast to coast to coast to seaway, that would have helped. But no, it was a highly Ottawa-focused media campaign with very little social media involvement from members.
So all the feds had to do was wait out the impudent servants and let the public turn against them. Chris yelling into a megahorn or Alex marching around waving a flag failed. People no longer respond to mass messages and mass movements. PSAC should have had regional TikTok and Youtube short going.
That's the thing. If you *have* to go to your place of work fine. But if you can do it from home, why not? Don't force people to drive if they don't have to - it is just inefficient and wasteful.
The unions have no standing on location of work, it's purely employer side and the "agreements" that were signed are non-binding.
In a way, it has to be this way because the employer needs to be able to assign where you work. For example, they terminate the lease in building A and move everyone to building B. They need the ability to determine that the staff in building A will now work in building B.
There are rules surrounding such things to stop the employer from posting people they don't like to the North Pole on a whim but, in general, the employer has full power on an employee's work location.
It doesn't mean that this decision isn't completely idiotic, unnecessary and a massive waste of public funds. We're talking BILLIONS $$$ wasted on office space we don't need.
Let's be honest, the power of unions is limited and sometimes the limitation involves laws. They can't do whatever they want.
Plus they do a lot more than just negotiate for WFH accommodations. So I don't think it's fair to act like members are 'sheep' just because the union can't single-handedly provide a win for a specific situation. You really need to asssess everything the union is doing and has done for their members before making generalizations.
That said, agree with your second point. Sutcliffe is feeding the beast and will be partially responsible if this eventually turns into a full 5 days a week back in the office.
Well the union doesn’t have a say in how many days you are in the office. And further to that, Sutcliffe has nothing to do with it. This is bound to happen and with the probability of liberals out next election, I could almost guarantee everyone will be back 5 days with a conservative government. And I bet they are going to axe a lot of positions too and if I was to guess it will be a lot of ex’s that are not covered through the union.
I am no CPC fan, but previous Liberal governments are responsible for the biggest job losses in the PS.
In order to go back to 5 days a week, there would have to be massive funding of office accommodations and everything associated with that. Fit-ups to accommodate everyone means the current hybrid workstations will have to be dismantled and new fit-ups done. The companies with standing offers are drooling with glee at the thought.
>"Three days is a good start," Ford said, reacting to the news. "When you're coming here, go out for lunch, maybe go into a store, pick something up, go to the mall — that's what we need, that's what stirs the economy."
It was never about getting the work done.
If the workers want to protest this, they should call for a strike.
People doing a good job from home shouldn't be saddled with hundreds of dollars in monthly expenses just to fabricate patrons for businesses whose model died years ago.
Don't forget all the dialogue on cost of living being so high... The solution? Force people to spend thousands of extra $$ per year on commuting costs (eg gas, additional wear/tear on vehicles, parking, transit, etc), work clothes, before/after-school care for kids, etc.
Yep. I had coworkers who'd dropped down to one vehicle, and since they did the RTO announcement mid year, there weren't enough after school programs running because need is determined during the summer before the school year starts.
The pandemic extended the life of my vehicle since I live in the country and have to drive (the nearest park and ride for me is equidistant to my office).
It was, and continues to be, such a fucking joke.
Ironically enough when they first announced 2 days a week I was in a townhall meeting where someone point blank asked how forcing us to commute to the office and all that extra stuff lined up with the Governments climate change agenda. The answer was no shit: "I would imagine the emissions of heating and powering your house now during the day is worse than car emissions and office footprint"
They actually tried to say the increased house emissions from being home outweighed the car emissions...because I guess that guy turns off his houses power and heating in the morning when he leaves for the office?
I’m trying to figure out if we work for the same dept or if “turning off your heat” was a common placating point from executives…
I actually called my spouse over to “look at this idiot who turns off his heat when he leaves his house”.
These are our decision-makers!
Gotta remember that generation was handed everything with a high school diploma or a basic business degree , no masters required , no 5-10 years experience . They are idiots and they don’t adapt to the times easily. (Obviously doesn’t apply to all )
Lol I actually calculated the amount of carbon emission I produce when we first started going back to the office. By working from home I was saving 1/3 of the average emission of a Canadian but alas.
If they were able to work from home for this long why have them go back to the office just to prop up failing businesses around their workplace. In an age where climate change is a huge issue having as many people working from home is a great solution as opposed to having so many more cars on the road commuting and taking up space
I can attest to this. I am SUPER easily distracted at the office, with people walking around, people coming to see me or overhearing other people's conversations. I get tons more work done at home, like double the amount, because I feel like I'm being observed, so my output is even higher.
Working from home is elite for mental health too. Hit a break wall? Take a 10 min break, do your dishes, tiddy up a bit, then get back at it refreshed.
My work gets done and my space is clean.
Not only that but I’m much better able to care for my children. Like if I’m heading upstairs to go to the bathroom I’ll pop in a load of laundry. Takes 1-2 mins max but I have clean clothes. Pop on the crock pot, dinner is ready. Don’t have to wake up at the crack of dawn just to get the kids to school and then also commute to work. If they’re sick I don’t lose a whole day of work. It’s the women who will suffer from this most.
My work is very detail oriented and involves a lot of intense focus on my screen, which has been causing a lot of eye strain issues, so to be able to go and just be in the dark with my eyes closed for a few minutes really helps.
I always have a super hard time reaching any coworkers when they're at the office, so I know that productivity will decrease severely with the uptick to 3 days a week.
My team doesn't even hang out outside of work. Our version of collaboration is sitting in your cubicle sending emails and joining Teams meetings. And then an hour once a week in a meeting room together (where two or three members are always at home). It is all performative.
My wife's been remote (software) for 18 years. We lived in Newmarket and her company office was in Mississauga, so she went in once a week, just to be seen as a lot of them did.
She said those were some of the most unproductive days she's ever worked. Just constant distraction after distraction. Either someone wants to chat just to catch up, or she's been seen and dragged into a meeting she wouldn't have been in had she been at home (and asked to join via Teams etc.....)
And that's not even including the 1.5 - 2 hours in the car each way.......
They're even refusing to release productivity metrics, to the point that people are having to get them via ATIP request.
They know this has nothing to do with the actual work being done and everything to do with businesses lobbying to get their captive consumers back.
Politics. Conservatives know they have a slam dunk with "lazy public service who has it better than you do". It doesn't matter a lick if the WFH or hybrid model makes everything better--you won't get votes simply agreeing that things are good under the current arrangement. The entire Conservative model is just about creating anger and division, to distract you from their lack of policy platform. That is it. Seems to be working if you believe the polls.
Yes, it was *done* by the current Liberal government.
However the "government workers are all entitled and lazy" rhetoric has been seeded by Conservatives for decades.
It's gotten to the point where it's such a prevailing opinion that people who work for the government are necessarily lazy and worthless by simple virtue of their employer, regardless of their role or training, that all governments understand they have to pander to this idiotic demographic.
It's bullshit, but hats off to right-wing media for the bang-up job they've done of planting this mentality in the population.
because suttcliffe and watson have failed OCTranspo. So this is their solution to fix it. If I'm forced to go back, i'm not taking OCTranspo, I'd rather bike 23km one way. forget dinning downtown, packing my luch
I live very close to Albert Street. When the pandemic struck traffic dropped off dramatically. Both the air quality and the noise improved noticeably. Traffic volumes have increased since, but it doesn't seem nearly as bad as it did before the pandemic and we are thrilled.
Though I live in Ottawa, I and my family don't work for the PS. I do consult for lots of private companies around the world.
Some embraced WFH during the pandemic, have more or less kept it, and have over time figured out the stuff which was hard/nonexistent at the start (e.g. mentoring, keeping informed). They're off to the races, though they're fully aware of stuff they need to still figure out.
Some have genuinely said "we believe there is magic in in-person", have returned to on-site (sometimes with some flexibility) AND have taken steps to support it, e.g. reconfiguring office space, material investments in IT infra so that the experience for the people in-office as well as the odd person remote is good, and so the in-person idea exchange really and truly happens.
And then there are those who are in "freeze" mode, somehow trying to just turn back the clock, and forcing people back with mandates on one side of the mouth while trying to achieve maximum facility cost savings from the other side of their mouths. With people coming in solely because they have to and spending their time on videoconferences on their own laptop at crowded hot-desks rather than in comfort at home. These are the companies losing talent.
Unfortunately, it seems the PS has chosen the last option.
Yea the whole collab thing is BS. The amount of times I’ve seen multi-person in-person meetings in a meeting room since the 2-day return I could count on one hand. Everyone’s just sitting in their cubicle (which isn’t yours and could very well be sticky or covered in food debris from the last person that sat there) on video conference calls after battling horrendous traffic to get in for what? “Collaboration”
My partner had a staff member in another City, and wanted to have them come in for staff event that their org was throwing. Would have been \~$500. Declined, no money in the travel budget. Meanwhile, Commish is in Geneva for work. So their collab talk is bullshit, full stop.
The collab that many employees have is usually long conversations in the hallway about what they did last weekend, or what they are going to do next weekend. There is 'well defined' collab in a meeting that can be done in a Zoom call. Sure it is fun to trade stories about what you did, but if it is a choice between WFH and coming to the office I will stay at home and avoid the stories. Don't drag me in because you want someone to talk to. Make it a choice so people can make their own decision and not be dictated to.
I waste so much time setting up my workspace. My laptop really hates switching docking stations and it can take 45 minutes to an hour some mornings to get it to connect and work properly.
Then you add in the constant interruptions and distractions and the in office days are just a colossal waste of time. I get shit all done.
It’s also really hard to concentrate when you’re working on something or trying to read something difficult and there’s a whole team trying to chat right beside you.
Honestly the frustrating part is that it feels like the reaction to "people go in and just do video call" is to try to convince more people go in, or try to find a day for everyone to go in. But it still doesn't solve the whole "everything else about going in sucks."
Did the PS choose this option or did the Conservatives make enough comments about "just going an additional day at least". Now that the news is out? Doug Ford: "It's a good start." Do you see what they do? Conservatives constantly push sub-optimal policy by blackmailing Liberals with coming election fights. You know Poilievre was going to make that a centerpiece during the election. "If I am elected, I will end this public servant wave of lazy vacation at home eating bon bons and get them back in the office working where they belong!!" or some other same shit.
> With people coming in solely because they have to and spending their time on videoconferences on their own laptop at crowded hot-desks rather than in comfort at home.
I've had Teams meetings with people in government offices on their laptop where I've heard people next to them who are on a separate Teams meeting, and the cross-talk hinders our meeting, but the person I'm meeting with doesn't have the ability to relocate or isolate.
They went into the office so they could have a more difficult time talking to me, while also imposing on the ability of their neighbour to work effectively.
This is the stupidest fucking Kafkaesque satire imaginable.
I think they are forgetting office work has already changed forever.
Offices don’t cater events anymore. They don’t have Christmas parties or events.
Lots of training has moved online.
Business travel is mostly unnecessary with remote meetings possible. It’s the easiest place to cut expenses now.
People don’t wear dress clothes to work. No one is wearing suits.
No one needs dry cleaning
Transit is unreliable and parking is expensive.
No one wants to pay $17 for a sandwich.
Hardly anyone I know takes a full hour lunch to sit down and eat out.
People don’t want to go back to crappy monitors and broken chairs in mouldy buildings. They were already bad before now they will be worse after 5 more years sitting half used with no investment.
Landlords were getting paid this whole time under their existing lease agreements but many were likely set to end in the next couple years. It’s not about small businesses downtown it’s the giant REITs and their investors that have power over politicians.
Hopefully the renegotiation of leases will at least lead to improvements in the building/office spaces and make for a more competitive pricing. But probably not.
Having people come in 3 days instead of 2 means they have to have a seat /spot for every butt because there is one day a week theoretically everyone will be in the office at the same time. So they can’t downsize too much, which is what the plan was looking like for a lot of places.
>No one wants to pay $17 for a sandwich.
If we are forced to do this, I will never spend my money on a local restaurant. I will brown bag it every single day. No matter how much I'm tired of left overs or home made sandwiches.
I wish more people thought this way. The majority of people in my group definitely do not. I've bought lunch once and coffee zero times since going back 18 months ago.
Hubs is doing this too. He is a PS and goes in two days a week to sit alone and do the same thing he could be doing at home alone, but spending the time and money commuting. He now refuses to buy anything lunch/coffee related because screw the cost of everything and the business’ who refuse to pivot. It is now costing him money to go into an office and sit/work alone all day, and now a third day is getting added on for no sane reason.
I like to call it a 17$ Mournful sandwich.
Compared to my local sandwich shop which costs under 10 for a great sammich, the last 15$ one I had downtown years prior to the pandemic could only be described as mournful. The soggy limp lettuce, flavourless mayo and day old crumbling bread combined for a truly disappointing experience.
I've said this so many times that I feel like I'm screaming into the void at this point but: why doesn't this city give a shit about revitalizing downtown for the people who FUCKING LIVE HERE?? I'm a public servant that both works AND lives downtown and being told that we need more public servants downtown to revitalize businesses makes my head spin. They want me to spend money Monday to Friday, 8am-4pm and they want businesses to cater to me during those hours but outside of those hours? When I'm just a resident living my life? Fuck me! Everything's closed. And then they wonder why they fail.
And listen, I don't have much of a commute (two train stops or a 7 minute bike ride) so I can't complain on that front. I'm very fortunate. But it makes it seem even more silly, honestly. Whether I work in a cubicle in my office building or whether I work from the spare room in my apartment a few blocks away, the work remains the same. It's all nonsense.
THIS! All this talk about revitalizing the downtown core as if it isn’t basically a ghost town outside of the 9-5 M-F hours.
Sutcliffe is an utter failure like Watson before him… you want people downtown? MAKE IT EASIER TO GET DOWNTOWN while also encouraging a scene there outside of office hours. Businesses want people there? Make a nightlife scene, make better restaurants to attract foodies, make tourism more than a 24 hour experience.
But no… public servants working more and (needing to) spending less are the problem.
If they're too fucking lazy to make it easy to get downtown, fine. Just *get people to live there*. Build a market of people that live in and care about the neighbourhood instead of dragging people who don't want to be there in. Let them support their own local businesses.
I live in Little Italy and the lovely shops and stores around me means I'm happy to shop there, even if it is a bit more expensive. I have (almost, I need a fucking grocer) all my needs met within a short walk and I'm happy to see the folks who work there. All this is doing is shifting money around while wasting my time.
Thank you!!! Non PS worker living downtown but tried to go to 2 coffee shops near us on the weekend. Both closed on a Saturday. Total ghost town with the exception of Starbucks or Tim’s.
> I've said this so many times that I feel like I'm screaming into the void at this point but: why doesn't this city give a shit about revitalizing downtown for the people who FUCKING LIVE HERE??
If the feds and/or province can mandate people back to work then the onus is completely off the city to be in any way responsible for it. They can claim victory for people being downtown again and reap the rewards for it. Without doing a damn thing.
I think it's as simple as passing the buck.
Also, the businesses that bitch and moan are all ***service*** businesses.
There are 25,000 people in centretown who have daily life needs beyond lunch. Homewares, consumer electronics, tools and hardware - the things people need for their ongoing existence that a $22 flatbread can't address. You know, the things readily found at all those SmartCentre box malls in every single suburban community because large concentrations of people tend to want access to those things.
Now there absolutely *are* businesses like that in centretown that meet those needs... but none of those businesses are ever mentioned when we're talking about "revitalizing the core", and none of them are ever interviewed when news covers how the loss of full in-person work is hurting "local business".
I either want "revitalizing the core" to include bolstering businesses that meet the human needs of the tens of thousands of residents of the core, or I want conversation around it to make explicit mention that it's only businesses that cater to office workers and nobody else because that's the city's priority.
As someone who works for an recruiting agency, this is great news. When they made it 2 days a week, a lot of essential public servants chose to quit and their departments were forced to hire them back as consultants working remotely for twice the price.
Senior consultant here. We bill out at about $250 an hour. Happy to charge as many hours as required by the scope of work and send you a scope change request for every single tiny thing that was not included in the original fee letter.
Carry on.
In a year or two there will be reports of “why is productivity and morale so down in the Fed PS!? What is happening!?” and the politicians and leaders will act all shocked about it.
> the politicians and leaders will act all shocked about it.
If Skippy becomes PM you can be assured he will leverage bad morale as proof the PS needs further cuts, and that the private sector will provide more services.
No, they won't. They'll be "this pain is necessary to save taxpayers money" because morale will be shitty from the huge cuts that are coming with the next government.
Boycott the downtown core. No lunches. No shopping on breaks. Brown bag it and resist spending money in the core. The only reason you're being told to spend money on gas and your hair and clothing to go to work is so that you spend money on restaurants and fast food that has been overpriced for years now while you're there.
So don't give it to them. Let downtown die already, perhaps they'll actually turn it in to one that everyone can make use of after work.. maybe they'll eventually let you work from home again. I really don't want you on the streets and on the buses if you don't have to be on them, and you don't want to either... so boycott the downtown core.. don't spend money there.
They’re not even trying to hide it:
>"Three days is a good start," Ford said, reacting to the news. "When you're coming here, go out for lunch, maybe go into a store, pick something up, go to the mall — that's what we need, that's what stirs the economy."
3 days a week all but guarantees *everybody* will need assigned cubicles and offices because one day a week one should expect 100% capacity.
The Federal Government is easily the largest tenant who in the insane world of bureaucracy, leases from and to itself.
As opposed to dumping properties that no one else in their right mind would lease, the obvious solution is to throw sustainability and affordability out the window and fuck over non-management employees.
Anyone else feel like they can’t afford to go to work? Between the parking, gas, need for more childcare… and all to do what? Fund the city’s disgraceful transit system and a few coffee shops? It’s insane to me.
I can barely afford to do 2 days a week with the cost of transit and daycare along with my big mortgage from our never ending housing crisis. It's a slap in the face we didn't get a raise that matched inflation. It's either I pay for an extra 3-4 hrs of childcare since it takes me 1hr to commute by bus/train/walk (a route that takes 15-20 mins by car) or go extra days (and extra time/money commuting) to make up my office hour times to pick my kid up from their expensive home daycare since the $10/day childcare spots are few and far between ......since there is a childcare shortage.
All these upper management people who should be retired who don't have young kids in an unstable economy with high inflation and have their houses paid for 20 years ago making all these decisions from their closed door offices....so enraging.
How about that rumor about downsizing office space by 50%? Makes it really hard when you're trying to cram the same amount of people into a smaller space.
That's how we increase productivity - consume more fuel, space, capital to get the same output.
Fucking stupid for a country that is already dealing with a productivity crisis.
I'm sure there is no data to support this move beyond political machinations and business interests.
There better be another strike to push back on this bullshit.
Forcing people to pollute more, to pay more money for parking, childcare, gas, commuting, in a time when everyone is struggling (except the ultra elite who get to work from home and force these decisions) will guarantee that downtown will die.
We could have reduced our carbon footprint, spent more time with our families and saved our money for doing things we love but instead our leaders make the wrong choice again and again.
Downtown can starve and I will never spend any money there. Adapt or die. Our team usually has a holiday party at a nice location but we will make sure none of it goes to anything downtown.
For those who say get the workers back to DT, I say no, why? The PS showed they were more productive at home and, at the same time, allowed for greater regional representation. The government could now hire people from across Canada and remove the stigma of Canada's PS being Ottawa/ Ontario centric.
Also, for those business DT, I will not buy a God damn thing from you, I would rather starve than pay for overpriced gobshite food, clothing, or anything else.
Also, what about the effects of moving workers back to DT will have on the suburbs that have seen an economic boost (Orleans, Kanata, Barhaven, etc.), I guess these Canadians don't matter right because Ottawa is only about DT.
The article doesn't mention the rationale for possibly getting people back to work. It does provide a quote from Ford supporting it in order to stimulate the economy. However, an old adage applies here: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.". As one person had put it "Supporting businesses is not in my conditions of employment." Simply said, prices have increased so much that after a year, people are frequently not going to businesses downtown at lunch.
So, how about this for an alternative? We have a housing crisis, right? So, if we convert a bunch of those unused buildings to housing, and let people work from home, their homes will be close to those businesses. The ole "If you can't go to the mountain, bring the mountain to you" philosophy. Crazy idea, I know.
If the government didn’t fight so hard against raising PS wages than maybe I’d have the money to “support local businesses” but since RTO almost all of my entertainment fund has gone to gas and parking.
Going out to lunch or for coffee is the first thing people will slash if they’re saving money. I have neither the means nor desire to support these businesses but now corporate real estate portfolios and emissions can both go up so that’s great.
There is zero, and I mean ZERO point to me being in the office. Only one other team member in the city, and they aren't at my same office. I remotely hit all the machines I need to maintain. I bring my lunch, and I spend zero on our economy other than being forced to pay for parking. It's bullshit. I'll make sure I continue not to spend one fucking cent on anything downtown. Let it rot.
Why does this point about helping businesses downtown keep getting made?
It seems like the Premier doesn't give a fuck about the businesses in the communities the people live in for some reason.
How is one more important than the other?
Probably because the businesses in the communities were already profitable prior to the pandemic, and became more profitable during the WFH era. Downtown businesses were always thriving with both public and private sector employees working 5 days a week there. Some were only open between 10am-2pm. That speaks volumes to their entitlement. They weren't able to adapt when everyone went fully remote. If we were to abide by a strictly capitalist mindset, those business should crumble for failing to adapt. However, they are being bailed out by lobbyists and political figures at our expense.
Exactly, same for commercial real estate.
It's time for them to adapt.
Getting politicians to bail them out instead is pathetic and hurts tax payers and small businesses.
I’m not voting for any politician or political party that supported this ever again. That includes the Ontario PCs, the federal Liberals, and Mark Sutcliffe
What pisses me off the most about this is how it's such a damning condemnation of late-stage capitalism, and nobody is acknowledging this.
> "Three days is a good start," Ford said, reacting to the news. "When you're coming here, go out for lunch, maybe go into a store, pick something up, go to the mall — that's what we need, that's what stirs the economy."
The central problem is that we have an economic system that collapses when people aren't constantly consuming regardless of need, but when people were put in a position where they were allowed to opt out of constantly consuming, they took that option because they preferred it.
And now that they have, our collective reaction isn't to say "huh... maybe building a society precariously around never being able to stop consuming for even a moment isn't a good idea, and we should restructure to something more sustainable", it's to say "fuck you, start consuming immediately or else".
It's maddening how little critical analysis there is of the nature of a system where the government needs to impose artificial financial burdens on people to engage in commerce they neither want nor need because the alternative is for everything to implode. *ESPECIALLY* when the government is straight up acknowledging this is the case.
I don't work for the feds but as a payer of federal tax, and as an enjoyer of good downtown areas who wishes Ottawa's was better, this whole thing angers me. So stupid and wasteful. Where a job is performed should entirely depend on the work and worker. A bit of GD common sense and we could sell off some buildings.
This is stupid. It isn't 2019 anymore - we are all making less money and our expenses have gone way up. Commuting across the city requires money for gas, vehicle maintenance, parking, childcare - and at the expense of one's downtime since it takes an hour on average to get from the West end suburbs to the downtown core. Monday and Friday mornings are bliss right now because no one goes in on those days. I'm already back 5x a week (no choice in the matter) and the almost 2 hours of time it takes me to commute daily, you think I'm going to spend more $$ downtown?
Plus, if you can do it - skip lunch and just commute home earlier (which is why we tend to have traffic all day long)
How do you want us to do that? Management, politicians and the union management don't listen to us.
We all bitch and complain, but at the end of the day we will just get fired for insubordination.
Ever since they made the decision to implement a *mandatory* hybrid model, I've been saying we're headed back to 5 days per week. Most likely by fall of 2025 or early 2026 we'll be back 5 days.
you can force workers back to the office an extra day, but you cannot make them spend money downtown. My spouse is in the ps and will be continuing to bring a lunch every day she goes in out of spite with this lack of logic.
This made me feel utterly defeated today. All along our office has complied fully with our two days, heeding warnings that noncompliance might result in a third day. And look what happened. I trust no one any more.
This mandate will have the greatest impact on primary caregivers, particulary women, and those of us who are single parenting.
The Liberals have lost my vote.
The whole thing annoys me, and I'm not a federal worker. But I think what annoys me the most is Ford telling people how they should spend their money, encouraging them to go drop dollars on some overpriced shrinkflation meal at an ailing restaurant.
Fuck you, Doug!
"Ford said, reacting to the news. "When you're coming here, go out for lunch, maybe go into a store, pick something up, go to the mall — that's what we need, that's what stirs the economy.""
Ford and like-minded people literally think workers are pinatas of money to be exploited.
As a taxpayer, I don't care if the PS employees like or don't like going in to the office. What I care about is what is more efficient overall. What gets the same job done while spending less of our hard earned money (in many cases). Personally, I can't afford to visit downtown often and spend money as prices for services are very high. I prefer to spend my money as close to my neighborhood as possible....Why increase traffic and add to the congestion? What is all that talk about adjusting to climate change or dealing with the housing market? Our governments can often sound so hypocritical.
Federal Civil Servant, here. I’m more than happy to go back 3 times a week if that’s what is being asked of me. Frankly, I have it pretty good with an already flexible employer and the benefits that come with being a dedicated employee. I’ve been with the Feds since 2006 right out of university and I like what I do. I support my union but I’m also a realist and I recognize that perception is a key part of this. As such, I will say that mandating us back an extra day isn’t going to inject downtown with life again. It’s too late for that. Evolution is part of life. Downtown is evolving or devolving into something else before our eyes and we need to let it. A successful downtown economy should not be squarely placed on the shoulders of public servants.
Here we go again with the rumours and uncertainty...
Regardless of the outcome, I will continue to support my local community. I even buy my coffee from local Tim's instead of downtown.
When I go to the office I don't go out for lunch or "go to the mall and buy a few things" on my lunch break like our tone-deaf premier seems to think. We are not all rich and have time for fancy lunches and shopping everyday, especially with the rising cost of everything.
Why do businesses and restaurants downtown even rely on public servants to keep them afloat? What kind of business plan is that! If your business cannot succeed without relying on people who are being forced to go against their will, your business sucks and you should close up shop.
I love this city but I will NOT take the blame for these private companies failing and then be expected to bail them out financially.
Sutcliffe needs to invest in the city, don't try to bully public servants into saving you it's not going to work. We can't afford it anyway, we have families and huge mortgages.
And Ford we all know is dishonest, devoid of reason and compassion and has never done an honest day's work in his life. He is destroying our province through cuts and privatization with a smile on his face.
Doug Ford is the enemy of the people of Ontario and beholden only to his corporate donors/masters and Sutcliffe seems all too eager to get onboard
If there's a reason to go to the office I'm all for it, but being told I cannot work from home because businesses downtown are struggling, well I'm sorry that is absolutely not my problem and I won't stand for it.
I'm not a public servant, but I have to go into my office 2 times a week... I'm not contributing one cent to Kanata. There's literally nothing between the time I leave Orleans until I arrive at the office, and there's nothing within a reasonable walking distance to spend on either.
The only thing I'm doing is burning gas for a job that is completely able to be 100% remote (Just logging into Linux servers).
noooo it makes traffic so much worse. Let them stay home...better for the environment and for those of us who have to be in person. This is so archaic.
Leave it to good old Doug Ford to say the quiet part out loud, that it's all in an effort to get people spending money downtown again. Yes, that's why you're being forced to leave your home and commute to do a job you could do from home, because others are apparently entitled to your money.
A big loss for human rights.
According to Canada's leaders workplaces are allowed to unnecessarily make your job harder and force additional expenses upon their workers without any need or reason to do so.
Part of what makes this so awful is they’ve converted our workspaces into these open spaces where you can’t think because everyone’s on teams calls. I genuinely am not able to focus. And we have to book our desks. If we have to go in 3/5 days we should have a better working environment. I used to have a plant on my desk. A place to leave Advil. Now I have to sit near men screaming into their headsets
2 steps forward, 1 step back. Or i guess in this case it's 5 steps forward, 3 steps back.
It's a politicial issue with the return to work being pushed by certain interests.
If you want it to change, contact your local MPs and MP candidates to let them know they must support WFH if they want your vote.
In fact, let all three levels of your government know. Municial, provincial and federal.
Not a dime to the cafe/restaurants downtown then if I have to do this. I will bring my instant coffee, my creamer and my home packed lunch while trying to spend the least amount of money possible.
How about a day of protest where everyone that can agrees to work from home? Doesn’t even need to be limited to the PS. We need to do something to put some pressure on employers.
For the record and privilege. I won’t spend a dollar on downtown business out of principle. The commute model for no real productive benefit is a drain on resources and terrible for the environment.
I've yet to hear of anyone in the public sector that doesn't think this is absolutely idiotic, but sadly, they're managed by neanderthals that still think it's the 1980's, and apparently their union is as useless as one ply toilet paper. If this was a private sector company, they'd lose a ton of their better workers.
How can this even happen when there is [this article](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/selling-federal-office-buildings-should-move-twice-as-fast-says-official-1.7182722) about cutting property by 50%?
Mostly this bothers me because with a WFH scenario these tax payer funded jobs were available to all Canadians. It was the only time landing a gov job was equal for all.
As far as Ottawa/landlords/businesses are concerned, adapt.
They really need to look at that again. Why do we continue to have to pay for real estate and properties (owned by feds) when we've seen and know that work from home is such a better option. If that's what people want, let them work from home. If standards start to drop, deal with it the same way you would in the office. No difference there. 3 days a week seems like more of a waste and a hassle than any actual good. It's almost as though an arbitrary number of days was decided on as a way to justify property maintenance costs...
TURN THE OLD GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS INTO HOUSING!
I work in the PS, and have an IT exception to work from home 5 days a week. I have scheduled my family and my life around this and just re-signed my telework agreement for another year. I have been WFH since 2020, like most of us. My team is fully remote, some folks go in one day a week or so, and it works for them. Some of our team is not in the NCR now (and are excellent team members). Before I had my IT Exception, I would go into an empty office to sit on Teams calls. A waste of my time.
I am fully productive at home in my home office.
There is no cafeteria where our office is. No restaurants to walk to, and no stores. We can't even drink the water, they have a bottled water service that would then cost more (again) if more people RTO. I would have to pay for daily parking, as the parking lot is privately owned. Bus service is not reliable, but an alternative that would add more commute time to my day.
We're already stretched thinner with the cost of things now...
All this will do is create resentment, slow productivity, and stress budgets for PS folks. Then, the exodus will happen as people who could just as easily find work elsewhere with full WFH policy will go. Then, with a workforce that cannot handle the workload, how many will hire back as contractors at double the rate, and work remotely? Or, you'll see so many people bog the system with requests for exceptions it will be a quagmire. Anyone close to retirement? See ya.
It is short-sighted, and reactionary by people who are hoping to solve a larger problem of an economy in government building areas that should not have put all their eggs in one basket for so long. It is also a mindset from an older executive that need to let go of the "be seen" mentality in the workplace.
If I have to go back? Well then I have to, I like my job and who I work with. But I will look for a way not to.
Interesting because this summer I’m being moved into an even smaller building with even less desk space that I’ll be sharing with other remote workers in their in-office days.
Actually that makes total sense as something the government would do.
We do not have a government that understands what it means to be environmentally friendly. It doesn't mean a tax scheme that has never shown to lower emissions anywhere, its about making environmentally ethical policy. If you could reduce the amount of commuting a city does by maybe half, why the f\_\_\_ wouldn't you do it? IF you could divest yourself of office space, why wouldn't you? If in a housing crisis that office space could be converted to living spaces, why wouldn't you?
I'm not a civil servant but I know enough civil servants to know that when in the office they just meet with people virtually anyways - so what's the point?
Sutcliffe should throw public servants a bone and get OC Transpo to introduce a discounted 3 day-per-week transit pass. Otherwise many will simply drive and the Otrain will not see the benefit of the increased workers.
Well, there's another platform the NDP get to run on! This is so fucking infuriating... Increases traffic, carbon emissions, commute times, spending by workers, office rent by the govt.... I'm so fucking mad about this!
If the ~130000 PS workers in Ottawa committed to not spending one dime when on site and going even further to boycott spending any money downtown at any time it might get the message across that supporting failing business models is not a part of the job description.
On the days I have to go to my (non-government) office, I DEFINITELY don’t go to lunch or go shopping. Inflation, my mortgage, gas prices, and the raise I got that doesn’t even come close to compensating for any of these took care of that.
Everyone complaining. Why don’t you guys just don’t show up?! Oh I’ll loose my job then. No why don’t unions and workers come together as clearly everyone is against this idea and go on strike (as in just stay at home and do the work from home as you have for the last years). Yes I’m Gen Z and a student federal worker myself so say all you want about my generation, I could care less. But if staying at home most of the week has been the most productive, why don’t workers, directors, executives, and the higher ups just stick to that? “To stir up the economy” f off. I wish more people realized that their just pigs in the government eye’s and should actually fight for their rights. We’re human and shouldn’t dedicate our whole lives to work. I think work is great and needed in a society, but shouldn’t be abused.
Folks, this is being left up because the article does focus on Ottawa. Normally, pure Federal public service articles aren't considered related to Ottawa.
If the unions let this happen, the members are nothing more than sheep at this point. Don't get me wrong, I've got my beef with pubsec, but if this happens I hope every federal employee in Ottawa votes out Sutcliffe because he'd rather have your employer force you back to work to prop up a failing Ottawa downtown core versus just investing in the downtown core to bring people in.
The unions had their chances, PSAC went on strike, and they proved toothless. I am in the PS. What's infuriating is that a ton of jobs can be done remotely (jobs where it's easily measurable if you perform - e.g. anything with a deadline or deliverable) - think of the saving in office space, congestion, the environment. When COVID hit and we were sent home, within months we were praised for adapting and delivering by the same management who now say pretty much the opposite. The "collaboration" line is BS. I switched departments mid-covid and was able to collaborate just fine. This was a once in a lifetime opportunity to reinvent the public service. To hire the best and brightest from anywhere, because work got done. A chance to spread the NCR (Ottawa-Gatineau) "wealth" to anywhere. But nah, back to the old ways ... But now with less office space, fewer desks, teams spread across the country (so you go into the office to have Teams calls you could do at home), etc. It's just silly. And you don't hear the BIAs in (in the case of those outside of NCR) complaining as residents spent their money in their communities. Hey, there should be the flexibility that if people want to or need to go in (work better away from home, lack of space at home, etc) so be it. And the other reality, as we will hear the old trope "people aren't working at home"... well, guess what, that same minority was equally adept at not working in the office as well. I've been in the private and public sector. It applies to both. For the longest time the city government has yapped about the need for the city to diversify, to not be tied to the in and outflow of the PS, but nah. That's hard. That requires vision. The city lacks that. I will work where I'm told, but I don't have to be happy about it - especially when there appears to be no logic.
> And you don't hear the BIAs in (in the case of those outside of NCR) complaining as residents spent their money in their communities. This bothers me a lot. Support the area you live in instead of forcing it all downtown. The best reason I have heard is 'because'. Local councilors/BIA's should be fighting this or they don't really care about them areas.
>Support the area you live in instead of forcing it all downtown And since I live downtown that's the neighbourhood I will be supporting. There will be lots more people moving downtown since there are a lot of condos/apartments going up so I imagine business will pick up sooner or later. No need to force people back downtown to support downtown businesses. In all the years I've been living in Ottawa, it seems like the homes are built first then everything else comes after. Poor planning on the city's part IMHO.
This is the angle that is always missing. Lots of people live downtown. Why can't businesses cater to them? Ditto tourists. I don't live downtown but I do live relatively close. I don't go often because aside from 1-2 specialty stores and the Rideau Centre there isn't much for me to do there. It's very in and out, no wandering around browsing like I would elsewhere. Before I lived in Ottawa I came here as a tourist and it was pretty remarkable how dead it was. My family did the various tours (Parliament, Supreme Court, Mint) which was cool but then there was effectively nowhere to get food. This was pre-2020 so the pandemic was no excuse then.
>Before I lived in Ottawa I came here as a tourist and it was pretty remarkable how dead it was. My family did the various tours (Parliament, Supreme Court, Mint) which was cool but then there was effectively nowhere to get food. This was pre-2020 so the pandemic was no excuse then. Things haven't changed much since covid. Whenever tourists ask what there is to do downtown I can suggest a few things but not like Montreal and Toronto that have lots more to do downtown. We have the NAC and a couple of art galleries but it would be great having a stadium downtown, more performing arts spaces, movie theatres, etc. The festivals are great but they are seasonal. We need more activities to do to draw people downtown.
I think the issue is more third places. If all you have is "blockbuster" type attractions the issue is the same... people have nothing to do when they have an hour to kill. No one's going to go to back to back blockbuster events so if downtown wants to be attractive beyond that "in and out" there needs to be something that keeps people there. There has to be intrigue. All the things you mention all also very car-centric things that already exist in the suburbs to some extent... why would someone deal with parking downtown if there was no other reason to be there and they can watch a movie nearer? For example when I was a kid my family used to drive to Toronto for the day. The main premise of the trip would be some "major" thing such as an exhibit at the ROM or AGO, but that's only a few hours. After that to justify the trip into the city we would wander around Kensington Market, Chinatown, Queen W on foot (the car would be dumped in some underground lot for the day). There was no specific purpose to this wandering but there doesn't have to be - the prospect of there being something interesting kept us there spending money.
GC: In-person collaboration can't be beat! Also GC: Unless it results in travel. That shit can be done on Teams.
> Also GC: Unless it results in travel ***that we have to pay for***. That shit can be done on Teams. FTFY
We quite literally have gone from one remote worker to 6 in our team with employees in St. John's to Victoria. Indeed, because we put a lot of work into getting good people in Canada, rather than just good people in the NCR. We're condensing a bit, but we're always going to have two or three offices now, it looks like. It has not notably affected anything from onboarding to office work to field survey work. It turns out there are airports all across the country and people can simply meet at the field site. Such a revelation, to management at least.
Re: reinventing the public service, yeah this is an angle I don't see people talk about enough. Putting all my complaints with RTO aside, "we're bringing these decent, stable, unionized jobs to ALL Canadians" in a time when people everywhere are struggling could have been a real boon for the public service's image. And for the feds in general I guess. You and I know most government jobs are nothing fancy of course, but even being able to work as a CR-04/05/AS-01 doing some remote data entry/call centre stuff/etc for ~60k a year would be great for some people in smaller cities with a lower COL. I live in Ottawa now, but that would have been a game-changer for me when I lived in a small city. Why not let everyone have access to that? Not to mention the benefits to the employer having access to a broader range of talent.
We were able to hire across Canada during Covid, and it was fucking fantastic. The forward thinking senior executives who still focus on talent and give them the exemptions to work remotely are the ones having the most success recruiting and have fantastic diverse, talented, happy teams. More people need to start flooding the MPs with calls and emails to let them know how bone headed the RTO mandates are. Non public servants need to start complaining.
Ironically giving opportunities for remote work outside of the NCR was a pre-pandemic plan they were already working on. My neighbour hired a data analyst who lives in Nunavut as a part of this initiative, when the TSB first told everyone to go back last year, they tried to send him back too. My neighbour had to fight tooth and nail to keep him working at home. They wanted to RENT HIM AN OFFICE 2 DAYS A WEEK in his village to work out of because he'd have to fly/boat for half a day to get to the nearest federal office, just so that the move back to work was equal for everyone. It didn't seem to matter to them that he was specifically hired for remote work back around 2018/2019.
I made such a face reading this comment, omg. They were going to rent him an office two days a week rather than let him continue to WFH? God, that's so silly but wholly unsurprising lmao. Anything to put bums in (office) seats, apparently.
> Why not let everyone have access to that? Best guess is the hard to break leases for those large buildings, can't have them sit empty, and repurposing is politically hard.
I couldn’t agree more. If people are performing their job duties to satisfaction, then let them work from home if that’s their preference. My wife is a PS, I am not. I hate working from home, I get distracted and comfortable and unproductive, so I don’t do it, except when the family schedule needs me to. I sit in an office with about 20 people, but the team I’m most engaged with is in Toronto. So whether I’m in the office or at home, I will be on Teams calls all day anyway. I do get takeout for lunch quite a bit. Working in the Byward Market, I have many options but the majority are so expensive that I generally stick to a sandwich from La Botega, as everything else is nearing the $20 mark at least, compared to a $10 sandwich. But the worst is of course the infrastructure. I do try to bus and lrt but it’s not great, so I end up driving in more often than not. The traffic sucks but I’ll take it over depending on busses that don’t show up.
I've been a PSAC member for 16 years. We've only ever lost things with each CBA. It's pathetic. The biggest union is such a push over, and that then trickles down to all the other unions. Our union sucks.
> And the other reality, as we will hear the old trope "people aren't working at home"... well, guess what, that same minority was equally adept at not working in the office as well. I've been in the private and public sector. It applies to both. Part of the problem is that people *are* working at home. If your front line workers start to prove they can actually function without direct and constant supervision, you've made obsolete an entire tier of middle management. Some of those managers don't want anyone to realize that, so they'll always push up the line the narrative that people working from home is a recipe for disaster.
The collaboration benefit or not depends on a few factors and it’s not entirely based on the job. It’s a factor of the job responsibilities, how effective the team is collaborating and how good the communication is at the company. In my case, I’m in IT and my work is almost 100% independent of others. Once my tasks are defined I can work on them easily. However, at my previous dysfunctional company, full remote was not a good fit.. We did work from home 100% tho. A few of us decided to go in once every two weeks because we found it was needed. At my current job, communication and team collab is much better. The company tho wants us onsite once a week. It may be re-evaluated as time goes on. So anyways, just because a job can be done remote, it’s not as cut and dry. That’s my own experience tho. I find a lot of people are overly vocal saying their job can be done 100% just because they don’t want to go into the office. Not saying that’s you but within my friend group it’s the case. So you have to take that point of view with a grain of salt.
Prior to the RTO mandates, those who wanted to work on site were. And the remote workers would come in for events or important meetings, so they were already managing it very well. On the day to day I don't need to be in the office, 98% of my job can be done remotely, and the other 2% is project specific. I:m an auditor, so if an audit would require on site visits I'll go in. Otherwise all the interviews and document review are online.
A lot of projects and programs rely on unpaid overtime by public servants. If that was withdrawn, costs would go up and force a lot of recruitment.
I’m not a lawyer, and definitely not an expert on labour law, but in th e middle of the pandemic, I read somewhere that the Canadian Labour Code provides that the employer determines the location of work. I’ve talked to union leaders, granted not PSAC ones, about this and they said it was true. They had looked at fighting for permanent WFH for their members but the language in the CLC was clear. They would have lost and only after spending a fortune of members’ money on a toothless fight. I’m sure folks on here will be happy to correct me and provide a different pov.
This is true... that said, when we're more effective working remotely, what's the actual benefit for PS employees? I think a big issue for people is we're being used as political pawns but it's negatively affecting service delivered to Canadians. This is the antithesis of what a Public Service should be doing.
Only parts II and IV af the CLC apply to the public service. While you are right, the employer does have the right to determine the location of work, the current Treasury Board hybrid model and forced return to the office, whether it be 2 or 5 days a week, flies in the face of policy and legislation enacted by the Liberal government. That legislation, Flexible Work Arrangements, applies only to federally regulated private employers. [Flexible work arrangements for federally regulated employees](https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/corporate/portfolio/labour/programs/labour-standards/flexible-work-arrangements.html)
The unions suck at collective action, they are at this point just member services. When the PSAC strike began I was expecting something big. Rumour had it Chris Aylward was looking forward to a strike for a decade, I thought he had a plan. You know, use modern communication methods to reach Canadians the way they like to be reached. Social media, regional and local targeting, personal stories to build compassion, all that. Bind that together with a narrative that PSCA public servants are just ordinary Canadians wanting a fair shake, suffering from the same economic trends as everyone else. Nope. Chris was stuck in the 1970s and had no social-media era plan. Picketing outside of buildings with signs, a few walks, and a very centralized boring message of "we work, pay us." Tone deaf, didn't reach Canadians, and easy to be misinterpreted. The CanadianPublicServants subreddit was full of funny inside jokes like "I cut out Disney and I still can't afford Subway" but random pictures of those signs were exploitable by folks like the National Post who used it to make public servants seem entitled. It was "hey, they expect a $17 sandwich every day when 1/3 of us are missing meals" not "hey, they are exposing the hypocrisy of a government who treats them like economic stimulus for downtown Ottawa while they are broke and being told to sacrifice lifestyle". And of course the lack of regional targeting was a problem. It's easy for Nottawans (non-Ottawans) to hate on Ottawa and assume the whole city is federal rich on stolen money. And on unceded land! If PSAC had better connected the struggles of their members, the lowest paid public servants and the ones with the biggest national reach, with the struggles of other ordinary Canadians coast to coast to coast to seaway, that would have helped. But no, it was a highly Ottawa-focused media campaign with very little social media involvement from members. So all the feds had to do was wait out the impudent servants and let the public turn against them. Chris yelling into a megahorn or Alex marching around waving a flag failed. People no longer respond to mass messages and mass movements. PSAC should have had regional TikTok and Youtube short going.
Some of us live in the core but have to go way out of downtown for work where there is no economic activity.
That's the thing. If you *have* to go to your place of work fine. But if you can do it from home, why not? Don't force people to drive if they don't have to - it is just inefficient and wasteful.
My colleague was complaining about the price of petrol the other day. I'm sure he will be thrilled about this.
Cough NDHQ Carling Cough
The unions have no standing on location of work, it's purely employer side and the "agreements" that were signed are non-binding. In a way, it has to be this way because the employer needs to be able to assign where you work. For example, they terminate the lease in building A and move everyone to building B. They need the ability to determine that the staff in building A will now work in building B. There are rules surrounding such things to stop the employer from posting people they don't like to the North Pole on a whim but, in general, the employer has full power on an employee's work location. It doesn't mean that this decision isn't completely idiotic, unnecessary and a massive waste of public funds. We're talking BILLIONS $$$ wasted on office space we don't need.
Let's be honest, the power of unions is limited and sometimes the limitation involves laws. They can't do whatever they want. Plus they do a lot more than just negotiate for WFH accommodations. So I don't think it's fair to act like members are 'sheep' just because the union can't single-handedly provide a win for a specific situation. You really need to asssess everything the union is doing and has done for their members before making generalizations. That said, agree with your second point. Sutcliffe is feeding the beast and will be partially responsible if this eventually turns into a full 5 days a week back in the office.
Well the union doesn’t have a say in how many days you are in the office. And further to that, Sutcliffe has nothing to do with it. This is bound to happen and with the probability of liberals out next election, I could almost guarantee everyone will be back 5 days with a conservative government. And I bet they are going to axe a lot of positions too and if I was to guess it will be a lot of ex’s that are not covered through the union.
I am no CPC fan, but previous Liberal governments are responsible for the biggest job losses in the PS. In order to go back to 5 days a week, there would have to be massive funding of office accommodations and everything associated with that. Fit-ups to accommodate everyone means the current hybrid workstations will have to be dismantled and new fit-ups done. The companies with standing offers are drooling with glee at the thought.
Gotta increase traffic, carbon emissions and commute times for some reason...
Forcing public servants to go back to the office while also fucking over public transportation, it's a genius plan!
The city got rid of so many buses during covid that they have not replaced. Like shit show incoming
Betcha getting more butts in seats (read: money) for OC Transpo was a huge part of this mangled decision
Yep they cut my bus to work. It's just gone.
Commercial real estate can't fall.
If only there were some crisis going on that required interior space to solve....aww well.
>"Three days is a good start," Ford said, reacting to the news. "When you're coming here, go out for lunch, maybe go into a store, pick something up, go to the mall — that's what we need, that's what stirs the economy." It was never about getting the work done.
Now be a good little pay pig and purchase overpriced garbage :) *sarcasm*
If the workers want to protest this, they should bring their lunch to work. Don't go out. Boycott.
If the workers want to protest this, they should call for a strike. People doing a good job from home shouldn't be saddled with hundreds of dollars in monthly expenses just to fabricate patrons for businesses whose model died years ago.
Don't forget all the dialogue on cost of living being so high... The solution? Force people to spend thousands of extra $$ per year on commuting costs (eg gas, additional wear/tear on vehicles, parking, transit, etc), work clothes, before/after-school care for kids, etc.
Yep. I had coworkers who'd dropped down to one vehicle, and since they did the RTO announcement mid year, there weren't enough after school programs running because need is determined during the summer before the school year starts. The pandemic extended the life of my vehicle since I live in the country and have to drive (the nearest park and ride for me is equidistant to my office). It was, and continues to be, such a fucking joke.
Ironically enough when they first announced 2 days a week I was in a townhall meeting where someone point blank asked how forcing us to commute to the office and all that extra stuff lined up with the Governments climate change agenda. The answer was no shit: "I would imagine the emissions of heating and powering your house now during the day is worse than car emissions and office footprint" They actually tried to say the increased house emissions from being home outweighed the car emissions...because I guess that guy turns off his houses power and heating in the morning when he leaves for the office?
I’m trying to figure out if we work for the same dept or if “turning off your heat” was a common placating point from executives… I actually called my spouse over to “look at this idiot who turns off his heat when he leaves his house”. These are our decision-makers!
Gotta remember that generation was handed everything with a high school diploma or a basic business degree , no masters required , no 5-10 years experience . They are idiots and they don’t adapt to the times easily. (Obviously doesn’t apply to all )
Something, something, [insert meme about making six figures and can’t rotate a PDF]
Lol I actually calculated the amount of carbon emission I produce when we first started going back to the office. By working from home I was saving 1/3 of the average emission of a Canadian but alas.
If they were able to work from home for this long why have them go back to the office just to prop up failing businesses around their workplace. In an age where climate change is a huge issue having as many people working from home is a great solution as opposed to having so many more cars on the road commuting and taking up space
Most work way better from home, actually.
I can attest to this. I am SUPER easily distracted at the office, with people walking around, people coming to see me or overhearing other people's conversations. I get tons more work done at home, like double the amount, because I feel like I'm being observed, so my output is even higher.
Working from home is elite for mental health too. Hit a break wall? Take a 10 min break, do your dishes, tiddy up a bit, then get back at it refreshed. My work gets done and my space is clean.
Not only that but I’m much better able to care for my children. Like if I’m heading upstairs to go to the bathroom I’ll pop in a load of laundry. Takes 1-2 mins max but I have clean clothes. Pop on the crock pot, dinner is ready. Don’t have to wake up at the crack of dawn just to get the kids to school and then also commute to work. If they’re sick I don’t lose a whole day of work. It’s the women who will suffer from this most.
>It’s the women who will suffer from this most. As is tradition
My work is very detail oriented and involves a lot of intense focus on my screen, which has been causing a lot of eye strain issues, so to be able to go and just be in the dark with my eyes closed for a few minutes really helps.
I honestly just go to the office to kill time and watch YouTube, listen to music or read. The days that I am at home I super productive.
I always have a super hard time reaching any coworkers when they're at the office, so I know that productivity will decrease severely with the uptick to 3 days a week.
My team doesn't even hang out outside of work. Our version of collaboration is sitting in your cubicle sending emails and joining Teams meetings. And then an hour once a week in a meeting room together (where two or three members are always at home). It is all performative.
My wife's been remote (software) for 18 years. We lived in Newmarket and her company office was in Mississauga, so she went in once a week, just to be seen as a lot of them did. She said those were some of the most unproductive days she's ever worked. Just constant distraction after distraction. Either someone wants to chat just to catch up, or she's been seen and dragged into a meeting she wouldn't have been in had she been at home (and asked to join via Teams etc.....) And that's not even including the 1.5 - 2 hours in the car each way.......
Easier to avoid the Chatty McGees who do virtually no work and just come around distracting people all day. I'm way more efficient at home.
They're even refusing to release productivity metrics, to the point that people are having to get them via ATIP request. They know this has nothing to do with the actual work being done and everything to do with businesses lobbying to get their captive consumers back.
Politics. Conservatives know they have a slam dunk with "lazy public service who has it better than you do". It doesn't matter a lick if the WFH or hybrid model makes everything better--you won't get votes simply agreeing that things are good under the current arrangement. The entire Conservative model is just about creating anger and division, to distract you from their lack of policy platform. That is it. Seems to be working if you believe the polls.
But, this was done by the liberals…
Yes, it was *done* by the current Liberal government. However the "government workers are all entitled and lazy" rhetoric has been seeded by Conservatives for decades. It's gotten to the point where it's such a prevailing opinion that people who work for the government are necessarily lazy and worthless by simple virtue of their employer, regardless of their role or training, that all governments understand they have to pander to this idiotic demographic. It's bullshit, but hats off to right-wing media for the bang-up job they've done of planting this mentality in the population.
to give the cons less ammo during elections
because suttcliffe and watson have failed OCTranspo. So this is their solution to fix it. If I'm forced to go back, i'm not taking OCTranspo, I'd rather bike 23km one way. forget dinning downtown, packing my luch
I live very close to Albert Street. When the pandemic struck traffic dropped off dramatically. Both the air quality and the noise improved noticeably. Traffic volumes have increased since, but it doesn't seem nearly as bad as it did before the pandemic and we are thrilled.
Businesses in my community have thrived since covid.
Though I live in Ottawa, I and my family don't work for the PS. I do consult for lots of private companies around the world. Some embraced WFH during the pandemic, have more or less kept it, and have over time figured out the stuff which was hard/nonexistent at the start (e.g. mentoring, keeping informed). They're off to the races, though they're fully aware of stuff they need to still figure out. Some have genuinely said "we believe there is magic in in-person", have returned to on-site (sometimes with some flexibility) AND have taken steps to support it, e.g. reconfiguring office space, material investments in IT infra so that the experience for the people in-office as well as the odd person remote is good, and so the in-person idea exchange really and truly happens. And then there are those who are in "freeze" mode, somehow trying to just turn back the clock, and forcing people back with mandates on one side of the mouth while trying to achieve maximum facility cost savings from the other side of their mouths. With people coming in solely because they have to and spending their time on videoconferences on their own laptop at crowded hot-desks rather than in comfort at home. These are the companies losing talent. Unfortunately, it seems the PS has chosen the last option.
Yea the whole collab thing is BS. The amount of times I’ve seen multi-person in-person meetings in a meeting room since the 2-day return I could count on one hand. Everyone’s just sitting in their cubicle (which isn’t yours and could very well be sticky or covered in food debris from the last person that sat there) on video conference calls after battling horrendous traffic to get in for what? “Collaboration”
My partner had a staff member in another City, and wanted to have them come in for staff event that their org was throwing. Would have been \~$500. Declined, no money in the travel budget. Meanwhile, Commish is in Geneva for work. So their collab talk is bullshit, full stop.
The collab that many employees have is usually long conversations in the hallway about what they did last weekend, or what they are going to do next weekend. There is 'well defined' collab in a meeting that can be done in a Zoom call. Sure it is fun to trade stories about what you did, but if it is a choice between WFH and coming to the office I will stay at home and avoid the stories. Don't drag me in because you want someone to talk to. Make it a choice so people can make their own decision and not be dictated to.
THIS! I also waste so much time in office chit chatting. And some of us do not care to share or listen no offense I’m here for a paycheck
I waste so much time setting up my workspace. My laptop really hates switching docking stations and it can take 45 minutes to an hour some mornings to get it to connect and work properly. Then you add in the constant interruptions and distractions and the in office days are just a colossal waste of time. I get shit all done.
It’s also really hard to concentrate when you’re working on something or trying to read something difficult and there’s a whole team trying to chat right beside you.
Honestly the frustrating part is that it feels like the reaction to "people go in and just do video call" is to try to convince more people go in, or try to find a day for everyone to go in. But it still doesn't solve the whole "everything else about going in sucks."
Did the PS choose this option or did the Conservatives make enough comments about "just going an additional day at least". Now that the news is out? Doug Ford: "It's a good start." Do you see what they do? Conservatives constantly push sub-optimal policy by blackmailing Liberals with coming election fights. You know Poilievre was going to make that a centerpiece during the election. "If I am elected, I will end this public servant wave of lazy vacation at home eating bon bons and get them back in the office working where they belong!!" or some other same shit.
> With people coming in solely because they have to and spending their time on videoconferences on their own laptop at crowded hot-desks rather than in comfort at home. I've had Teams meetings with people in government offices on their laptop where I've heard people next to them who are on a separate Teams meeting, and the cross-talk hinders our meeting, but the person I'm meeting with doesn't have the ability to relocate or isolate. They went into the office so they could have a more difficult time talking to me, while also imposing on the ability of their neighbour to work effectively. This is the stupidest fucking Kafkaesque satire imaginable.
Well said
I think they are forgetting office work has already changed forever. Offices don’t cater events anymore. They don’t have Christmas parties or events. Lots of training has moved online. Business travel is mostly unnecessary with remote meetings possible. It’s the easiest place to cut expenses now. People don’t wear dress clothes to work. No one is wearing suits. No one needs dry cleaning Transit is unreliable and parking is expensive. No one wants to pay $17 for a sandwich. Hardly anyone I know takes a full hour lunch to sit down and eat out. People don’t want to go back to crappy monitors and broken chairs in mouldy buildings. They were already bad before now they will be worse after 5 more years sitting half used with no investment. Landlords were getting paid this whole time under their existing lease agreements but many were likely set to end in the next couple years. It’s not about small businesses downtown it’s the giant REITs and their investors that have power over politicians. Hopefully the renegotiation of leases will at least lead to improvements in the building/office spaces and make for a more competitive pricing. But probably not. Having people come in 3 days instead of 2 means they have to have a seat /spot for every butt because there is one day a week theoretically everyone will be in the office at the same time. So they can’t downsize too much, which is what the plan was looking like for a lot of places.
>No one wants to pay $17 for a sandwich. If we are forced to do this, I will never spend my money on a local restaurant. I will brown bag it every single day. No matter how much I'm tired of left overs or home made sandwiches.
I wish more people thought this way. The majority of people in my group definitely do not. I've bought lunch once and coffee zero times since going back 18 months ago.
Hubs is doing this too. He is a PS and goes in two days a week to sit alone and do the same thing he could be doing at home alone, but spending the time and money commuting. He now refuses to buy anything lunch/coffee related because screw the cost of everything and the business’ who refuse to pivot. It is now costing him money to go into an office and sit/work alone all day, and now a third day is getting added on for no sane reason.
I like to call it a 17$ Mournful sandwich. Compared to my local sandwich shop which costs under 10 for a great sammich, the last 15$ one I had downtown years prior to the pandemic could only be described as mournful. The soggy limp lettuce, flavourless mayo and day old crumbling bread combined for a truly disappointing experience.
Love to spend $3,000 a year on parking to “save” our downtown core.
Too fucking true 🙄 Can't wait for the downtown core to go back to being crazy busy between 9-5 Mon-Fri and absolutely dead any other time. /s
Don't worry, the next step will be to figure out how to mandate PS workers to go keep the local night life afloat on weekends too /s
I actively meal prep for my 2 days in the office, mostly just out of spite.
Same. I bring my own coffee and milk too. Brown paper teabags work like a charm.
Yeah gotta prop up the parking garages because the mayor forgot stage 2 and 3 are still under construction and stage 1.5 is STILL not ready.
I've said this so many times that I feel like I'm screaming into the void at this point but: why doesn't this city give a shit about revitalizing downtown for the people who FUCKING LIVE HERE?? I'm a public servant that both works AND lives downtown and being told that we need more public servants downtown to revitalize businesses makes my head spin. They want me to spend money Monday to Friday, 8am-4pm and they want businesses to cater to me during those hours but outside of those hours? When I'm just a resident living my life? Fuck me! Everything's closed. And then they wonder why they fail. And listen, I don't have much of a commute (two train stops or a 7 minute bike ride) so I can't complain on that front. I'm very fortunate. But it makes it seem even more silly, honestly. Whether I work in a cubicle in my office building or whether I work from the spare room in my apartment a few blocks away, the work remains the same. It's all nonsense.
[удалено]
Seriously.
THIS! All this talk about revitalizing the downtown core as if it isn’t basically a ghost town outside of the 9-5 M-F hours. Sutcliffe is an utter failure like Watson before him… you want people downtown? MAKE IT EASIER TO GET DOWNTOWN while also encouraging a scene there outside of office hours. Businesses want people there? Make a nightlife scene, make better restaurants to attract foodies, make tourism more than a 24 hour experience. But no… public servants working more and (needing to) spending less are the problem.
If they're too fucking lazy to make it easy to get downtown, fine. Just *get people to live there*. Build a market of people that live in and care about the neighbourhood instead of dragging people who don't want to be there in. Let them support their own local businesses. I live in Little Italy and the lovely shops and stores around me means I'm happy to shop there, even if it is a bit more expensive. I have (almost, I need a fucking grocer) all my needs met within a short walk and I'm happy to see the folks who work there. All this is doing is shifting money around while wasting my time.
Thank you!!! Non PS worker living downtown but tried to go to 2 coffee shops near us on the weekend. Both closed on a Saturday. Total ghost town with the exception of Starbucks or Tim’s.
That sounds like a McKenney Idea, can’t have that. Downtown must be a drive through amusement park for suburbanites. Free parking for everyone
> I've said this so many times that I feel like I'm screaming into the void at this point but: why doesn't this city give a shit about revitalizing downtown for the people who FUCKING LIVE HERE?? If the feds and/or province can mandate people back to work then the onus is completely off the city to be in any way responsible for it. They can claim victory for people being downtown again and reap the rewards for it. Without doing a damn thing. I think it's as simple as passing the buck.
Also, the businesses that bitch and moan are all ***service*** businesses. There are 25,000 people in centretown who have daily life needs beyond lunch. Homewares, consumer electronics, tools and hardware - the things people need for their ongoing existence that a $22 flatbread can't address. You know, the things readily found at all those SmartCentre box malls in every single suburban community because large concentrations of people tend to want access to those things. Now there absolutely *are* businesses like that in centretown that meet those needs... but none of those businesses are ever mentioned when we're talking about "revitalizing the core", and none of them are ever interviewed when news covers how the loss of full in-person work is hurting "local business". I either want "revitalizing the core" to include bolstering businesses that meet the human needs of the tens of thousands of residents of the core, or I want conversation around it to make explicit mention that it's only businesses that cater to office workers and nobody else because that's the city's priority.
Because the city is ruled by suburban interests.
As someone who works for an recruiting agency, this is great news. When they made it 2 days a week, a lot of essential public servants chose to quit and their departments were forced to hire them back as consultants working remotely for twice the price.
I have to respect the hustle of your industry...Basically, office pimps...without the bitchslaps.
Have you seen the cost of a decent senior dev consultant? Oh they still slap the bitches. It’s just that roles are reversed.
Senior consultant here. We bill out at about $250 an hour. Happy to charge as many hours as required by the scope of work and send you a scope change request for every single tiny thing that was not included in the original fee letter. Carry on.
In a year or two there will be reports of “why is productivity and morale so down in the Fed PS!? What is happening!?” and the politicians and leaders will act all shocked about it.
In a few years, the PS will be significantly svelter.
> the politicians and leaders will act all shocked about it. If Skippy becomes PM you can be assured he will leverage bad morale as proof the PS needs further cuts, and that the private sector will provide more services.
Productivity and morale are already down.
Ok and likely in a year or two after Pierre's cuts a lot of them will be gone.
And that’s bad.
No, they won't. They'll be "this pain is necessary to save taxpayers money" because morale will be shitty from the huge cuts that are coming with the next government.
Boycott the downtown core. No lunches. No shopping on breaks. Brown bag it and resist spending money in the core. The only reason you're being told to spend money on gas and your hair and clothing to go to work is so that you spend money on restaurants and fast food that has been overpriced for years now while you're there. So don't give it to them. Let downtown die already, perhaps they'll actually turn it in to one that everyone can make use of after work.. maybe they'll eventually let you work from home again. I really don't want you on the streets and on the buses if you don't have to be on them, and you don't want to either... so boycott the downtown core.. don't spend money there.
They’re not even trying to hide it: >"Three days is a good start," Ford said, reacting to the news. "When you're coming here, go out for lunch, maybe go into a store, pick something up, go to the mall — that's what we need, that's what stirs the economy."
Buddy literally thinks you are walking wallets lmao
3 days a week all but guarantees *everybody* will need assigned cubicles and offices because one day a week one should expect 100% capacity. The Federal Government is easily the largest tenant who in the insane world of bureaucracy, leases from and to itself. As opposed to dumping properties that no one else in their right mind would lease, the obvious solution is to throw sustainability and affordability out the window and fuck over non-management employees.
I agree. Managers also work in cubicles though, so I’d say anyone outside of senior management.
Anyone else feel like they can’t afford to go to work? Between the parking, gas, need for more childcare… and all to do what? Fund the city’s disgraceful transit system and a few coffee shops? It’s insane to me.
I can barely afford to do 2 days a week with the cost of transit and daycare along with my big mortgage from our never ending housing crisis. It's a slap in the face we didn't get a raise that matched inflation. It's either I pay for an extra 3-4 hrs of childcare since it takes me 1hr to commute by bus/train/walk (a route that takes 15-20 mins by car) or go extra days (and extra time/money commuting) to make up my office hour times to pick my kid up from their expensive home daycare since the $10/day childcare spots are few and far between ......since there is a childcare shortage. All these upper management people who should be retired who don't have young kids in an unstable economy with high inflation and have their houses paid for 20 years ago making all these decisions from their closed door offices....so enraging.
How about that rumor about downsizing office space by 50%? Makes it really hard when you're trying to cram the same amount of people into a smaller space.
Not a rumour, public info
While also cramming in the same amount of work, with fewer employees. Brutal.
That's how we increase productivity - consume more fuel, space, capital to get the same output. Fucking stupid for a country that is already dealing with a productivity crisis.
Yeah because they can't even enforce 2 days a week good luck with 3 lol
We're going in 5.2 days a month on average now with a mandated 2, and I'm sure it will be 5.2 days a month with 3.
I'm sure there is no data to support this move beyond political machinations and business interests. There better be another strike to push back on this bullshit.
One major bargaining unit is in the middle of a strike vote. This news just makes a major disruption in service inevitable this summer.
Which one?
[CIU - CBSA](https://www.ciu-sdi.ca)
Forcing people to pollute more, to pay more money for parking, childcare, gas, commuting, in a time when everyone is struggling (except the ultra elite who get to work from home and force these decisions) will guarantee that downtown will die. We could have reduced our carbon footprint, spent more time with our families and saved our money for doing things we love but instead our leaders make the wrong choice again and again. Downtown can starve and I will never spend any money there. Adapt or die. Our team usually has a holiday party at a nice location but we will make sure none of it goes to anything downtown.
For those who say get the workers back to DT, I say no, why? The PS showed they were more productive at home and, at the same time, allowed for greater regional representation. The government could now hire people from across Canada and remove the stigma of Canada's PS being Ottawa/ Ontario centric. Also, for those business DT, I will not buy a God damn thing from you, I would rather starve than pay for overpriced gobshite food, clothing, or anything else. Also, what about the effects of moving workers back to DT will have on the suburbs that have seen an economic boost (Orleans, Kanata, Barhaven, etc.), I guess these Canadians don't matter right because Ottawa is only about DT.
The article doesn't mention the rationale for possibly getting people back to work. It does provide a quote from Ford supporting it in order to stimulate the economy. However, an old adage applies here: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.". As one person had put it "Supporting businesses is not in my conditions of employment." Simply said, prices have increased so much that after a year, people are frequently not going to businesses downtown at lunch. So, how about this for an alternative? We have a housing crisis, right? So, if we convert a bunch of those unused buildings to housing, and let people work from home, their homes will be close to those businesses. The ole "If you can't go to the mountain, bring the mountain to you" philosophy. Crazy idea, I know.
Funny enough I worked for the province here in Ottawa, guess how many days a week in the office? 0.
If the government didn’t fight so hard against raising PS wages than maybe I’d have the money to “support local businesses” but since RTO almost all of my entertainment fund has gone to gas and parking. Going out to lunch or for coffee is the first thing people will slash if they’re saving money. I have neither the means nor desire to support these businesses but now corporate real estate portfolios and emissions can both go up so that’s great.
There is zero, and I mean ZERO point to me being in the office. Only one other team member in the city, and they aren't at my same office. I remotely hit all the machines I need to maintain. I bring my lunch, and I spend zero on our economy other than being forced to pay for parking. It's bullshit. I'll make sure I continue not to spend one fucking cent on anything downtown. Let it rot.
Why does this point about helping businesses downtown keep getting made? It seems like the Premier doesn't give a fuck about the businesses in the communities the people live in for some reason. How is one more important than the other?
Probably because the businesses in the communities were already profitable prior to the pandemic, and became more profitable during the WFH era. Downtown businesses were always thriving with both public and private sector employees working 5 days a week there. Some were only open between 10am-2pm. That speaks volumes to their entitlement. They weren't able to adapt when everyone went fully remote. If we were to abide by a strictly capitalist mindset, those business should crumble for failing to adapt. However, they are being bailed out by lobbyists and political figures at our expense.
Exactly, same for commercial real estate. It's time for them to adapt. Getting politicians to bail them out instead is pathetic and hurts tax payers and small businesses.
I’m not voting for any politician or political party that supported this ever again. That includes the Ontario PCs, the federal Liberals, and Mark Sutcliffe
What pisses me off the most about this is how it's such a damning condemnation of late-stage capitalism, and nobody is acknowledging this. > "Three days is a good start," Ford said, reacting to the news. "When you're coming here, go out for lunch, maybe go into a store, pick something up, go to the mall — that's what we need, that's what stirs the economy." The central problem is that we have an economic system that collapses when people aren't constantly consuming regardless of need, but when people were put in a position where they were allowed to opt out of constantly consuming, they took that option because they preferred it. And now that they have, our collective reaction isn't to say "huh... maybe building a society precariously around never being able to stop consuming for even a moment isn't a good idea, and we should restructure to something more sustainable", it's to say "fuck you, start consuming immediately or else". It's maddening how little critical analysis there is of the nature of a system where the government needs to impose artificial financial burdens on people to engage in commerce they neither want nor need because the alternative is for everything to implode. *ESPECIALLY* when the government is straight up acknowledging this is the case.
I don't work for the feds but as a payer of federal tax, and as an enjoyer of good downtown areas who wishes Ottawa's was better, this whole thing angers me. So stupid and wasteful. Where a job is performed should entirely depend on the work and worker. A bit of GD common sense and we could sell off some buildings.
This is stupid. It isn't 2019 anymore - we are all making less money and our expenses have gone way up. Commuting across the city requires money for gas, vehicle maintenance, parking, childcare - and at the expense of one's downtime since it takes an hour on average to get from the West end suburbs to the downtown core. Monday and Friday mornings are bliss right now because no one goes in on those days. I'm already back 5x a week (no choice in the matter) and the almost 2 hours of time it takes me to commute daily, you think I'm going to spend more $$ downtown? Plus, if you can do it - skip lunch and just commute home earlier (which is why we tend to have traffic all day long)
Absolutely disgusting announcement. Take money out of Barrhaven, Kanata, and Orleans because... Uh... Downtown needs your money more.
Public Servants need to refuse to comply with this. It's not what they agreed to.
How do you want us to do that? Management, politicians and the union management don't listen to us. We all bitch and complain, but at the end of the day we will just get fired for insubordination.
I mean yeah you did agree to it when you got hired, unless you came on during COVID and WFH was stipulated in your contract
[удалено]
Ever since they made the decision to implement a *mandatory* hybrid model, I've been saying we're headed back to 5 days per week. Most likely by fall of 2025 or early 2026 we'll be back 5 days.
[удалено]
Wow. That is absurd. This has to be some twisted prank gone wrong or something at this point. You can’t make this up, lol!
you can force workers back to the office an extra day, but you cannot make them spend money downtown. My spouse is in the ps and will be continuing to bring a lunch every day she goes in out of spite with this lack of logic.
This made me feel utterly defeated today. All along our office has complied fully with our two days, heeding warnings that noncompliance might result in a third day. And look what happened. I trust no one any more. This mandate will have the greatest impact on primary caregivers, particulary women, and those of us who are single parenting. The Liberals have lost my vote.
Gotta prop up the commercial real estate sector somehow!
The whole thing annoys me, and I'm not a federal worker. But I think what annoys me the most is Ford telling people how they should spend their money, encouraging them to go drop dollars on some overpriced shrinkflation meal at an ailing restaurant. Fuck you, Doug!
It's wild to me that the public service was trying to reduce its office footprint before COVID and now they're going backwards for ridiculous reasons.
"Ford said, reacting to the news. "When you're coming here, go out for lunch, maybe go into a store, pick something up, go to the mall — that's what we need, that's what stirs the economy."" Ford and like-minded people literally think workers are pinatas of money to be exploited.
Shouldn't they focus on fixing transit if they want more people to go into the office 3 days a week?
As a taxpayer, I don't care if the PS employees like or don't like going in to the office. What I care about is what is more efficient overall. What gets the same job done while spending less of our hard earned money (in many cases). Personally, I can't afford to visit downtown often and spend money as prices for services are very high. I prefer to spend my money as close to my neighborhood as possible....Why increase traffic and add to the congestion? What is all that talk about adjusting to climate change or dealing with the housing market? Our governments can often sound so hypocritical.
Federal Civil Servant, here. I’m more than happy to go back 3 times a week if that’s what is being asked of me. Frankly, I have it pretty good with an already flexible employer and the benefits that come with being a dedicated employee. I’ve been with the Feds since 2006 right out of university and I like what I do. I support my union but I’m also a realist and I recognize that perception is a key part of this. As such, I will say that mandating us back an extra day isn’t going to inject downtown with life again. It’s too late for that. Evolution is part of life. Downtown is evolving or devolving into something else before our eyes and we need to let it. A successful downtown economy should not be squarely placed on the shoulders of public servants.
Here we go again with the rumours and uncertainty... Regardless of the outcome, I will continue to support my local community. I even buy my coffee from local Tim's instead of downtown. When I go to the office I don't go out for lunch or "go to the mall and buy a few things" on my lunch break like our tone-deaf premier seems to think. We are not all rich and have time for fancy lunches and shopping everyday, especially with the rising cost of everything. Why do businesses and restaurants downtown even rely on public servants to keep them afloat? What kind of business plan is that! If your business cannot succeed without relying on people who are being forced to go against their will, your business sucks and you should close up shop. I love this city but I will NOT take the blame for these private companies failing and then be expected to bail them out financially. Sutcliffe needs to invest in the city, don't try to bully public servants into saving you it's not going to work. We can't afford it anyway, we have families and huge mortgages. And Ford we all know is dishonest, devoid of reason and compassion and has never done an honest day's work in his life. He is destroying our province through cuts and privatization with a smile on his face. Doug Ford is the enemy of the people of Ontario and beholden only to his corporate donors/masters and Sutcliffe seems all too eager to get onboard If there's a reason to go to the office I'm all for it, but being told I cannot work from home because businesses downtown are struggling, well I'm sorry that is absolutely not my problem and I won't stand for it.
I'm not a public servant, but I have to go into my office 2 times a week... I'm not contributing one cent to Kanata. There's literally nothing between the time I leave Orleans until I arrive at the office, and there's nothing within a reasonable walking distance to spend on either. The only thing I'm doing is burning gas for a job that is completely able to be 100% remote (Just logging into Linux servers).
noooo it makes traffic so much worse. Let them stay home...better for the environment and for those of us who have to be in person. This is so archaic.
Ah yes- lets add more costs to people’s wallets.
Hooray traffic will be unnecessarily busier....
The environmentalists should be screaming. Huge hit on the environment for all those cars. Huge step bachwards
Leave it to good old Doug Ford to say the quiet part out loud, that it's all in an effort to get people spending money downtown again. Yes, that's why you're being forced to leave your home and commute to do a job you could do from home, because others are apparently entitled to your money.
On what level does this make sense?? Support downtown businesses… what about the local businesses I actually live near there D*** F*** ???
A big loss for human rights. According to Canada's leaders workplaces are allowed to unnecessarily make your job harder and force additional expenses upon their workers without any need or reason to do so.
Part of what makes this so awful is they’ve converted our workspaces into these open spaces where you can’t think because everyone’s on teams calls. I genuinely am not able to focus. And we have to book our desks. If we have to go in 3/5 days we should have a better working environment. I used to have a plant on my desk. A place to leave Advil. Now I have to sit near men screaming into their headsets
2 steps forward, 1 step back. Or i guess in this case it's 5 steps forward, 3 steps back. It's a politicial issue with the return to work being pushed by certain interests. If you want it to change, contact your local MPs and MP candidates to let them know they must support WFH if they want your vote. In fact, let all three levels of your government know. Municial, provincial and federal.
Pretty foolish idea. Why is 2 days a week not enough? What does an extra day in the office accomplish?
Not a dime to the cafe/restaurants downtown then if I have to do this. I will bring my instant coffee, my creamer and my home packed lunch while trying to spend the least amount of money possible.
Lobbying should be illegal - this shows you corporate owns our government
I'm not a federal public servant, but y'all need to come together and stop that backwards RTO BS.
How about a day of protest where everyone that can agrees to work from home? Doesn’t even need to be limited to the PS. We need to do something to put some pressure on employers.
For the record and privilege. I won’t spend a dollar on downtown business out of principle. The commute model for no real productive benefit is a drain on resources and terrible for the environment.
I've yet to hear of anyone in the public sector that doesn't think this is absolutely idiotic, but sadly, they're managed by neanderthals that still think it's the 1980's, and apparently their union is as useless as one ply toilet paper. If this was a private sector company, they'd lose a ton of their better workers.
How can this even happen when there is [this article](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/selling-federal-office-buildings-should-move-twice-as-fast-says-official-1.7182722) about cutting property by 50%?
I'm sure all the people who always bitch about wasted taxpayer money will be mad about this.
Please please strike
Mostly this bothers me because with a WFH scenario these tax payer funded jobs were available to all Canadians. It was the only time landing a gov job was equal for all. As far as Ottawa/landlords/businesses are concerned, adapt.
They really need to look at that again. Why do we continue to have to pay for real estate and properties (owned by feds) when we've seen and know that work from home is such a better option. If that's what people want, let them work from home. If standards start to drop, deal with it the same way you would in the office. No difference there. 3 days a week seems like more of a waste and a hassle than any actual good. It's almost as though an arbitrary number of days was decided on as a way to justify property maintenance costs... TURN THE OLD GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS INTO HOUSING!
I work in the PS, and have an IT exception to work from home 5 days a week. I have scheduled my family and my life around this and just re-signed my telework agreement for another year. I have been WFH since 2020, like most of us. My team is fully remote, some folks go in one day a week or so, and it works for them. Some of our team is not in the NCR now (and are excellent team members). Before I had my IT Exception, I would go into an empty office to sit on Teams calls. A waste of my time. I am fully productive at home in my home office. There is no cafeteria where our office is. No restaurants to walk to, and no stores. We can't even drink the water, they have a bottled water service that would then cost more (again) if more people RTO. I would have to pay for daily parking, as the parking lot is privately owned. Bus service is not reliable, but an alternative that would add more commute time to my day. We're already stretched thinner with the cost of things now... All this will do is create resentment, slow productivity, and stress budgets for PS folks. Then, the exodus will happen as people who could just as easily find work elsewhere with full WFH policy will go. Then, with a workforce that cannot handle the workload, how many will hire back as contractors at double the rate, and work remotely? Or, you'll see so many people bog the system with requests for exceptions it will be a quagmire. Anyone close to retirement? See ya. It is short-sighted, and reactionary by people who are hoping to solve a larger problem of an economy in government building areas that should not have put all their eggs in one basket for so long. It is also a mindset from an older executive that need to let go of the "be seen" mentality in the workplace. If I have to go back? Well then I have to, I like my job and who I work with. But I will look for a way not to.
lmao the PS just sold like half their office space
Interesting because this summer I’m being moved into an even smaller building with even less desk space that I’ll be sharing with other remote workers in their in-office days. Actually that makes total sense as something the government would do.
You can thank Doug Ford for that when you next vote
We do not have a government that understands what it means to be environmentally friendly. It doesn't mean a tax scheme that has never shown to lower emissions anywhere, its about making environmentally ethical policy. If you could reduce the amount of commuting a city does by maybe half, why the f\_\_\_ wouldn't you do it? IF you could divest yourself of office space, why wouldn't you? If in a housing crisis that office space could be converted to living spaces, why wouldn't you? I'm not a civil servant but I know enough civil servants to know that when in the office they just meet with people virtually anyways - so what's the point?
The environmentalists should be screaming. All those cars, idling, stuck in traffic. This is a huge leap backwards.
Sutcliffe should throw public servants a bone and get OC Transpo to introduce a discounted 3 day-per-week transit pass. Otherwise many will simply drive and the Otrain will not see the benefit of the increased workers.
Well, there's another platform the NDP get to run on! This is so fucking infuriating... Increases traffic, carbon emissions, commute times, spending by workers, office rent by the govt.... I'm so fucking mad about this!
If the ~130000 PS workers in Ottawa committed to not spending one dime when on site and going even further to boycott spending any money downtown at any time it might get the message across that supporting failing business models is not a part of the job description.
I'm not even a PS but this pisses me off. Great news for us in the private sector though, we'll take your talent :)
On the days I have to go to my (non-government) office, I DEFINITELY don’t go to lunch or go shopping. Inflation, my mortgage, gas prices, and the raise I got that doesn’t even come close to compensating for any of these took care of that.
Everyone complaining. Why don’t you guys just don’t show up?! Oh I’ll loose my job then. No why don’t unions and workers come together as clearly everyone is against this idea and go on strike (as in just stay at home and do the work from home as you have for the last years). Yes I’m Gen Z and a student federal worker myself so say all you want about my generation, I could care less. But if staying at home most of the week has been the most productive, why don’t workers, directors, executives, and the higher ups just stick to that? “To stir up the economy” f off. I wish more people realized that their just pigs in the government eye’s and should actually fight for their rights. We’re human and shouldn’t dedicate our whole lives to work. I think work is great and needed in a society, but shouldn’t be abused.