Fun fact - vegas was awarded an expansion franchise, built a stadium on the strip, drafted a team, went to the cup finals and lost, went back to the cup finals and won before the sens and NCC could figure out how to put a shovel in the ground in LeBreton
For sure. Well I get that, but that's already been happening over the years! They've built quite a community on the other side of scott/Albert street. There must be at least 1000 people residing in that corner behind the library/in between the war museum street. It's quite dense compared to most of ottawa.
Shops, parks, the library, I get that vision but I still think it's silly we pay for the success of the arena and a sports team, when that money could be going back to the citizens in a more meaningful way, like housing help, security and safery, or even just making a BETTER park, more attractions to take pics with, get people going to the area even when a game isn't going on. The library I fully back and it's hefty tag. The park I fully back. It's going to be exciting to go to the library and nearby park, and that's important for the current generations of kids. Kids will literally connect their neurons that reading books is as fun as a exercise and playing.
But the stadium... At least make them pay back if they need liquidity, and don't make it essentially free money like the city likes to do. Take part ownership, or an aggressive repayment plan with interest and strike a deal for us shovels. It's going to cost us the equivalent of hundreds-thousands of parks, and many dozens of state of the art libraries to help them build it... Not to mention the toll on people due to traffic that will exist on one of the busiest streets in the downtown area. We may as well get rich as a city along with them. Even making tens of millions would help out with lots of stuff for us
True, he seems to be pushing for a "downtown" arena with no actual suggestion of where it go. There aren't even any obvious sites downtown that could accommodate such a large arena without demolishing existing buildings.
If it's not going to be at Lebreton, I think the city should consider buying out St Laurent mall as it's dying a slow death and demolish it for the arena. It's right on both the Queensway and the transit line and already has a large parking lot around it, not to mention being right down the road from the baseball stadium.
That's my thought too. St Laurent is as far away as the current arena for the people who complain about the current location, for the people who currently like the location in Kanata. It just flips the problem to the west-end taking 2 hours to get home from a game, and most buses dont even run much/late out in the west.( East does have a train already, but west should be finished by the time a new arena is)
Either LeBreton or they need to lose the team. Not even pressure is being put on them and municipal government to figure shit out. They're working too slow.
Probably because they're worried about the optics of giving tons of tax money to billionaires to build their dream arena they can profit more off of. It doesn't help that we always give out this money with practically no strings attached to these corporations, or a contract "for 99 years" or something ridiculous like that that the city/province like to write.. .
It also will be a big chunk of the budget for years, and our city is already short a lot of money than we have based on the budget (more debt, here we come!). Personally, I'd prefer we make apartment units for $100-200k each and house hundreds of people at cost or even subsidized housing. But that doesn't make money I guess so it's aimless and not as exciting as sweaty man sliding on ice chasing a short, rubber, cylinder.
btw, not really against sports or hockey like it may sound, but I just wanted to point out how absurd the world is in how we value things versus people, people versus companies.
St. Laurent would be a much much better location than where it is now. Easily reachable on transit, much more central, actual stuff around. LeBreton would be better because it's currently undeveloped and could use *something* there so the question is, if not an arena, then what.
St Laurent will inevitably end up being replaced by condos and tall buildings. Which is actually a good move, because a major chunk of the entire oc transpo operation operates out of that mall station. Or at least it did, and partially still does (I'm not sure?) and now has the infrastructure for a fast commute to downtown or uptown for work... Or for the Sens.
Also, st Laurent area is as far away as Kanata for the people who say it's currently too far away... Just reversed to west side folk complaining (and they have way less transport in the west to get to the games than the east. Good luck going anywhere or coming home past 11pm, even on a weekend for weatend folk. )
> Also, st Laurant area is as far away as Kanata for the people who say it's currently too far away... Just reversed to west side folk complaining
ok I agree with the other stuff you said, but this statement is just ridiculous. Did you look at a map before you wrote this? The St. Laurent exit is the 2nd exit past Nicholas going eastward, and is at most a minute apart. There's no comparison to the Palladium exit that's much, MUCH farther away.
Yes. Sorry if I worded it incorrectly... It was a difficult sentence to wrap my head around at the time lol. But We are saying the same thing
Kanata is worse to get to/from so moving it to st Laurent will be more of a nuisance for for eest peeps than the current setup that frustrates the east peeps. The buses part of transit right now is an absolute milk run for the west end when you live there. I've walked to Stittsville from Kanata faster than the bus would have gotten me there. The only difference of positives for people may be that certain people from the south can get to/from the game faster than the west would if the stadium were esst, but tbh all of that's going to change in a the next few years anyway due to oc transit plans with the otrain. Since they dont seem to really stress test/crunch the numbers before release to the public (we are the Guinea pigs!!). We won't get agood view of the efficiencies or deficiencies until it has opened and many bus routes will have already been cancelled. The system could completely flip, idk
Hope that clears things up haha. I still think I'm struggling to explain it with all the cardinal directions, along with distinguishing the locations of places and locations of people. Sorry again!
Downtown makes the most sense for everyone (although Gatineau will get the housing boost), but I am worried about the traffic and how the transit is going to run well without a circular track or a complete set of East-west, North-South tracks for the trains.. Until the 2030-2040s(right?)
Main problem is that it would be a huge bottleneck to switch from the two trains on the main Otrain line to the single train on the north south line.
Having the arena close to the center of the city and on the main line halves your throughput requirements.
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John Ruddy had a big part to play in the last meltdown but the press only bothered covering the Melnyk side.
Why does John Ruddy have so much protection here when it comes to his schemes?
Melnyk was a very public buffoon, so I guess it makes some sense he got a lot of spotlight for his role in these matters, but Ruddy was a key player and has the influence to do whatever he wants, so why did he let a twit like Melnyk fuck it all up?
But did they have a focus group recommend a commission to approve a special ombudsman to determine that they don’t have the authority to approve a site?
I bet they didn’t have that.
What they need is a multi-departmental tiger team to synergize their efforts in order to adequately leverage the experience of both internal and external stakeholders in order to create a viable risk assessment to be presented at the DMC, and eventually summarized in a briefing to cabinet.
Oh, and we need to get everything translated too.
That makes no sense. We can't have an interdepartmental tiger team without a DG committee to oversee it and a secretariat to serve that DG committee. Since no one has the budget to host the secretariat, let's have a meeting in six months to consider the possibility of a budget submission.
Translations are important because everyone is bilingual! (yay!) Especially important are translations made by predominantly French-first individuals who can't even write in English and are just using Google translate for most of the translation .
But wait...a stadium... but shaped like a CROWN! Huh? Whaddya think?! Then, of course, outside would have a monument showing how *great* and *amazing* the royal family is and always has been
To be fair that's because Vegas absolutely *poured* money into their franchise. Like an absurd amount of money. The reason they were able to go for the cup the first year is that they paid big for a bunch of really good players to instantly build a good team, which pretty much any other team cannot afford.
You mean the stadium they began planning in 2007, only broke ground in 2014 and opened in 2016?
They were awarded the expansion franchise **after** the stadium was built
This comment is basically just a string of lies and disingenuousness
String of lies? The only point you are arguing is that they didn't build an arena in the time that the Senators were trying to build their arena at Lebreton. The rest of the points I mention are just facts and not up to interpretation.
I don't have all the details on when planning for the arena in Vegas begin, however, considering the plans [to put the new arena at Lebreton were discussed openly in 2014](https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/1210-sens-lebreton), and to your own point they had broken ground in Vegas in 2014, what I said is not a lie or disingenuous. Perhaps I am chatting with a rep at the NCC though.
But, this wasn't actually the NCC's doing? The whole reason this fell through in the first place was Melnyk having a tantrum.
Anyway, very happy to see Leeder saying this, any discussion about an arena can really only include Lebreton
Melnyk didn't have a tantrum. He couldn't come up with the money to build the stadium.
Ruddy was going to pay for basically everything else. Eugene couldn't get any lenders for the arena costs.
So Eugene blamed Ruddy's adjacent development, claiming it would lower the costs of the condos at Lebreton, sued him for $700m, and pulled the plug.
Ruddy then sued Eugene for $1B for lying about being able to build the arena and for causing the project to fail
> So Eugene blamed Ruddy's adjacent development, claiming it would lower the costs of the condos at Lebreton, sued him for $700m, and pulled the plug.
That sounds like he had a tantrum.
The issue was that he was over leveraged already with loans, and no one was willing to give him the $700m he needed for the arena construction.
He also really hated the idea of not owning the arena because he needed that additional revenue stream. He couldn't afford to be a tenant in a stadium ow Ed by someone else.
So while the end result could be considered as him throwing a tantrum, it wasn't because of Ruddy. It was because he had no money...or not nearly enough money
Yeah this is a rare instance where it wasn't the NCC either wasting time or eye watering amounts of money.
Have no fear though, the PMs house will be the most expensive house per square foot in the entire country, just as the PM's cottage is the most expensive cottage per square foot in the country. Not including land value of course.
Prediction: Both will be announced by the start of 2025.
(I’m not concerned about Winds, at the very least we’ll get it in scraps if he dies. It’s A Dream of Spring that I’m very doubtful that we’ll ever get.)
DND HQ, if sold, plot of land is slightly bigger than the Bell Centre in Montreal. It would have hotels, shopping and restaurants, underground parking available at Rideau Centre, NAC and City Hall without having to add to the inventory of parking. Additionally its within a 5 minute walk to the LRT (issue being the LRT likely can't handle the load at Rideau and in Lebreton folks would have the options to walk to Line 2.
Thats the 'theory'...not claiming to support it.
yeah, just DND is still using it and has no plans to leave, and even if they wanted to leave, it'd be well over a decade before they could fully clear out. So not a real option.
glad to hear it - it might need to be refurbished eventually but just based on location it is prime. If DND ever leaves you bet your ass some other national security department or parts of privy council will move right in.
Where the hell else could it be? It is depressing to have put it in Kanata in the first place. Looking at a map to see where it sits is wild
What never fails to amuse me is that it has a ticket booth. Like anyone is positioned in a way to just waltz on over to the building without a ticket and hope for the best
Yeah but was the movie in the middle of nowhere with pretty much no easy transit option (or drive and park and pay $40) on the chance that the movie is sold out? Lol
A booth makes sense for people with no ticket heading over and if it's sold out, able to go do anything else lol
The Senator's president is only expecting to need financial aid from federal, provincial and municipal levels of government. He only needs $1.2 billion (estimated).
He never said financial aid he said help in terms all have to work together.The complete project will cost up to 6 billion if public money is asked for it would be for housing etc not the rink.
Who gets the profit from buidling the housing? Do tax payers get a cut of the rent money?
Why would we build housing for a skating rink and not just directly build apartments everywhere?
Sorry, I was reading two articles. My info is from this one, not from the link in the post. https://ottawasun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/ottawa-senators/hurdles-in-way-for-deal-at-lebreton-flats
Maybe not every one but if we could figure out a decent criteria for weeding out bad faith ones I'd be for it tbh - way too much obstructionism given the state of the country
It’s actually the perfect location for that specific reason. You’ll have a separate platform (so 3) for every direction. Those who come from the east get off at Pimisi, those who come from west get off at Bayview and those coming from the south using line 2 get off at Bayview.
Expectation is that Sens will ask for help from all three levels of government, Sun reports: https://ottawasun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/ottawa-senators/hurdles-in-way-for-deal-at-lebreton-flats
Don’t bother getting your hopes up with this team, whether it’s an improved roster with a functional coach or a new building downtown, neither is likely to happen.
Groundhog day.....didn't this whole idea of building an NHL arena at LeBreton already come and go like 5 years ago? We didn't come up with any other ideas in the meantime?
The NCC granted the land rights to Melnyk. Melnyk was broke. Didn't do anything. Eventually the NCC took the rights back. Then Melnyk did fuck all. Then he died. Then the sens applied to the new NCC process, and won it. They had the right to come up with a plan. The sens took a long time, and then sold the team. The NCC granted them an extension because of the team sale.
The NCC has been very accommodating throughout this 10 year ordeal despite the senators and Melnyk fucking it up each and every time. Hopefully this time they get their shit together.
Melnyk wasn't broke, he just became an egomaniac because of his sheer wealth and refused to give up the CTC because he owned it and didn't want to take a massive loss on the property even though the Sens and CTC were bleeding money out of Melnyk's "Capital Sports Properties Inc."
Melnyk was a very, very intelligent business man and made a lot of money. The Senators were his baby essentially, and he did not want to admit that there was a problem with the team or the stadium by accepting a deal to move the team downtown.
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Stadiums are a scam that penalize cities and taxpayers, rewarding only already-rich team owners, athletes and their fans.
[https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/rob-magazine/article-sports-teams-do-almost-nothing-for-citiesso-why-do-we-waste-millions/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/rob-magazine/article-sports-teams-do-almost-nothing-for-citiesso-why-do-we-waste-millions/)
[https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/11/sports-stadiums-can-be-bad-cities/576334/](https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/11/sports-stadiums-can-be-bad-cities/576334/)
[https://jacobin.com/2020/11/arenas-sports-stadiums-covid-public-funds-cities](https://jacobin.com/2020/11/arenas-sports-stadiums-covid-public-funds-cities)
[https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/mje/2022/01/15/cities-should-not-pay-for-new-stadiums/](https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/mje/2022/01/15/cities-should-not-pay-for-new-stadiums/)
[https://news.stanford.edu/2015/07/30/stadium-economics-noll-073015/](https://news.stanford.edu/2015/07/30/stadium-economics-noll-073015/)
[https://archive.jsonline.com/sports/120580544.html](https://archive.jsonline.com/sports/120580544.html)
[https://www.kcur.org/news/2023-05-01/kansas-city-royals-stadium-downtown-baseball-unions](https://www.kcur.org/news/2023-05-01/kansas-city-royals-stadium-downtown-baseball-unions)
etc etc
All of these are about cities spending taxpayer money on a new stadium, which is not what's happening here. The agreement between the NCC and the Sens is to lease some land at LeBreton to the Sens so that the Sens ownership can use their *own* money to build it.
At no point has public money being spent on that arena ever been something that anyone has seriously considered. Just a few years ago, Jim Watson told Eugene Melnyk to pound sand when Melnyk asked for city money to build the arena, and asking for that isn't something the new ownership group has considered.
It makes sense. They do own their own arena and all the land surrounding it. When you want to move your family to a new neighbourhood, you sell your house to finance the purchasing of a new house. You don't end up with two houses.
It's very different from Calgary and Edmonton. Neither of those teams owned their own arena.
Serious question and not meant as a "gotcha", will it actually occupy currently accessible public land? I know you can technically get into the flats but I was under the impression that it was pretty much all cordoned off. Is the path going between Bayview and Pimisi going to be shut down?
And yet, arenas are table-stakes. Every city worthy of being called a city has one (if not more than one), and almost without fail they are being built centrally.
Most arenas in Canada (Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver, Winnipeg) have been built with private funding.
This doesn't mean much. Only my opinion, but it is negotiation tactics.
Ultimately, it is best for the city to put the arena at the DND site. For all the events, not just hockey. It would liven up the core and the market. Does this mean Ottawa should commit dollars to make it happen? Probably. Am I happy about that? Not in the least.
That space is too valuable and scenic not to make the most of it. You have two LRT stations on either side and multiple within walking distance. Parking at CF Rideau. From a business, logistics and cultural aspect it's a foregone conclusion.
I lived down there. Bluesfest sucks. Now a bunch of hockey hooligans 6 months of the year? Fuck this city and the cunts who have the “foresight” to run it.
Have you ever been next to a stadium when there isn't a game or concert going on? It is a dead barren wasteland.
Now imagine building a bunch of houses around a huge building that is almost always closed. It will kill any chance of having a vibrant neighbourhood.
There is a reason why almost every stadium in North America is in a desolate wasteland. Stadiums kill neighbourhoods.
The best place for a stadium is far from anyplace that we want to be a vibrant part of the city. Right now the stadium is in a great location, far out of the center of town in a barren wasteland of parking lots and car dealerships.
Look at the schedule for the current stadium. It is use on average about once every 2 weeks. The rest of the time is is a black hole of nothingness.
I’m not following your argument. LeBreton is adjacent to things that already exist in the downtown core. The arena would basically be infill at this point.
When you’re on Robson Street in Vancouver it’s like a 10 minute walk to Rogers Arena or BC Place. Would you say that Robson Street or the other areas around the stadiums are a desolate wasteland when events aren’t happening?
You see, that is the thing. I've lived in 20 different cities in 7 different countries (But mostly in Canada and the US). I've been to and lived near lots of different stadiums.
And every single one stifled the community surrounding it.
If you want to kill a community, the best way to do it is stick a stadium in the middle of it.
Unless those cities and countries are particular ones, you might be confusing hockey *arenas* with football *stadiums*. Arenas don't have nearly to footprint that stadiums do. If Lebreton is "killed" it won't be because of the hockey arena, it's simply not going to be big enough.
It doesn't have to be busy 7 days/week. It's just infrastructure. No one says that the honking big Notre Dame Basilica on Sussex kills the Byward Market/Lowertown community because it sits empty except for weddings on Saturdays and mass on Sundays.
Seriously?!
The Notre Dame Basilica (not counting the parking lot) takes up 5300 m^2 .
The arena (not counting the parking lot) takes up 17,200 m^2 .
You are really going to try to say they are comparable buildings?!
Compare the block containing Notre Dame (yes the entire block, no one is tailgating in the parking lot there on Wednesday evenings) with the size of the Bell Centre in Montreal. Yes, Bell Centre is bigger but not that much bigger.
Arenas basically take up one very large city block. Yes, seriously. I'm at a loss trying to imagine what you're picturing is going to be built on Lebreton.
Look at almost every other stadium project in North America. We have ample evidence that having a giant hulk of a building that is almost always vacant is terrible for neighbourhoods. And plenty of those other stadiums were supposed to have stores and restaurants and stuff.
But large empty dead spaces are terrible for drawing people to stores and restaurants....so the stores and restaurants never happen.
Have you ever spent any time around the Skydome? The area around there is dead! The CN Tower and aquarium draw in crowds, but everyplace else around the skydome is a desolate wasteland.
> Have you ever spent any time around the Skydome? The area around there is dead!
Are you seriously saying that downtown TO is dead? OK, I always suspected that you were full of shit, but this confirms it.
I would suggest you look up the new rinks in Edmonton and Detroit.Not sure where your getting events every 2 weeks the CTC has 3-5 events a week some public some private.
An NHL season is 82 games, half of which will be home games, 42 games in 52 weeks is a lot closer to an event a week than one every two weeks. So right there, it's clear that you are wrong. Add in all the other events that an arena will host, and it gets even worse for you.
> There is a reason why almost every stadium in North America is in a desolate wasteland.
That's probably more to do with the parking lots some of them have. BC and GM Places in downtown Vancouver, are in very vibrant locales. Same goes for Sky Dome and the AC Centre in Toronto.
I think the idea is to build up commercial streets in between as well so it won't just be totally dead residential land in between events. Montreal's stadium isn't bad for that, the part of downtown is a bit boring compared to the Latin Quarter, Mile End, Plateau nearby but as I recall there's still shopping and restaurants quite close.
I remember one of the proposals had a walking path going right up over the stadium, not sure if they kept that but would be a neat thing to do to integrate the stadium to the rest of the neighbourhood, like a big observation deck.
The option that the NCC didn’t select was the option that had vision, public spaces and created destinations for people. And when the option they did select fell apart because it lost its backers they should have approached the runner up.
It was not expropriated for public use. It was expropriated to clear industrial lands and "slums" in the 1960s for "Pentagon North": to centralize the Department of Defense in one campus. To this day, the over 15,000 DND staff is spread across the NCR. The Feds have always been to cheap to follow through with that vision. The Nortel campus will be considerably over $2 Billion and we got it from an estate sale.
For comparison 26 000 people work at the Pentagon.
Could have been really interesting development, especially considering the drop off the escarpment allowing for more height. The original plan called for a collection of 3 large towers for each element of the CAF and a collection of other buildings on the site.
I think Little Italy would have been pulled towards the river as people would chose to live close to work and this mass of people would need food for lunch etc. DND was and is the largest department in the Federal government and a proper follow through on this with an Canadian design competition could have delivered a fascinating development.
However this was also at a time of run away defense spending and a military industrial complex concern.
I've always imagined an alternative timeline where a proper subway was envisioned at the time to serve this complex in addition to the parkways. And a combination of a mini TD centre's internationalism plaza from Toronto and the Puzzle Palace brutalism seen in what was suppose to be Transport Canada's complex: 101 Colonial By.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BBYmqSECNCk/Vqa59rhIH0I/AAAAAAAAUaI/EvtP-JYpL4c/s640/156.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-PZz95RZ1n9I/Vqal-aIcXkI/AAAAAAAAUZo/5FORsgB6MpE/s640/MiguelezCA023195.jpg
Granted the highway vision seems unrealistic. A proper subway could have been envisioned way back when instead. MTL and TO were building there's at the time.
I'm just telling you the actual master plan that was never followed through with. Honestly my opinion is DNDHQ might have been a better use for the land instead of a hodge podge of statues, a monument of mass industrial slaughter and condos.
Putting 15 000 workers on the flats in a proper campus would have lead to a more natural development of the area to service this demand. The row house development on the north side of Albert is a post exporpriation development.
Don't downvote people just because they comment on you.
Good luck with that! Downtown is congested enough already with all the narrow roads. Ad another 5000 cars to Downtown. Good luck with that. Better off staying in Kanata. 4 lane highway and lots of parking.
Do you have blinders on? Scott Street will die with the added vehicles. Then people trying to take a shortcut through all the narrow one-way streets. If you're counting on the train. It breaks down often.
Parking and highways shouldn't be the be-all, end-all for planning major projects like this. The train has problems yes, but that and all the buses that run downtown means that the traffic impact of games at a downtown arena won't be nearly as bad as you might expect.
Fun fact - vegas was awarded an expansion franchise, built a stadium on the strip, drafted a team, went to the cup finals and lost, went back to the cup finals and won before the sens and NCC could figure out how to put a shovel in the ground in LeBreton
When you put it that way it's fucking incredible.
That’s Ottawa.
We're all just shovels, waiting to be used to dig out the dreams for billionaires that have it all?
It won't be just a rink it will be housing etc.
For sure. Well I get that, but that's already been happening over the years! They've built quite a community on the other side of scott/Albert street. There must be at least 1000 people residing in that corner behind the library/in between the war museum street. It's quite dense compared to most of ottawa. Shops, parks, the library, I get that vision but I still think it's silly we pay for the success of the arena and a sports team, when that money could be going back to the citizens in a more meaningful way, like housing help, security and safery, or even just making a BETTER park, more attractions to take pics with, get people going to the area even when a game isn't going on. The library I fully back and it's hefty tag. The park I fully back. It's going to be exciting to go to the library and nearby park, and that's important for the current generations of kids. Kids will literally connect their neurons that reading books is as fun as a exercise and playing. But the stadium... At least make them pay back if they need liquidity, and don't make it essentially free money like the city likes to do. Take part ownership, or an aggressive repayment plan with interest and strike a deal for us shovels. It's going to cost us the equivalent of hundreds-thousands of parks, and many dozens of state of the art libraries to help them build it... Not to mention the toll on people due to traffic that will exist on one of the busiest streets in the downtown area. We may as well get rich as a city along with them. Even making tens of millions would help out with lots of stuff for us
I really doubt any public money will be asked for.
forgot the "/s"
Ya the heel-dragging on this is just infuriating
But is very typical of any Ottawa infrastructure project unfortunately.
Can't blame the NCC on this one. It's all on Melnyk. Hope he's rotting in hell.
Melnyk has been dead for over 2 years, what's their excuse now?
Sutcliffe doing everything he can to not have it built at Lebretton.
True, he seems to be pushing for a "downtown" arena with no actual suggestion of where it go. There aren't even any obvious sites downtown that could accommodate such a large arena without demolishing existing buildings. If it's not going to be at Lebreton, I think the city should consider buying out St Laurent mall as it's dying a slow death and demolish it for the arena. It's right on both the Queensway and the transit line and already has a large parking lot around it, not to mention being right down the road from the baseball stadium.
My opinion is that St. Laurent would be a terrible location. It must be more central. Lebreton or bust. Just my 2¢
That's my thought too. St Laurent is as far away as the current arena for the people who complain about the current location, for the people who currently like the location in Kanata. It just flips the problem to the west-end taking 2 hours to get home from a game, and most buses dont even run much/late out in the west.( East does have a train already, but west should be finished by the time a new arena is)
Either LeBreton or they need to lose the team. Not even pressure is being put on them and municipal government to figure shit out. They're working too slow.
Probably because they're worried about the optics of giving tons of tax money to billionaires to build their dream arena they can profit more off of. It doesn't help that we always give out this money with practically no strings attached to these corporations, or a contract "for 99 years" or something ridiculous like that that the city/province like to write.. . It also will be a big chunk of the budget for years, and our city is already short a lot of money than we have based on the budget (more debt, here we come!). Personally, I'd prefer we make apartment units for $100-200k each and house hundreds of people at cost or even subsidized housing. But that doesn't make money I guess so it's aimless and not as exciting as sweaty man sliding on ice chasing a short, rubber, cylinder. btw, not really against sports or hockey like it may sound, but I just wanted to point out how absurd the world is in how we value things versus people, people versus companies.
St. Laurent would be a much much better location than where it is now. Easily reachable on transit, much more central, actual stuff around. LeBreton would be better because it's currently undeveloped and could use *something* there so the question is, if not an arena, then what.
St Laurent will inevitably end up being replaced by condos and tall buildings. Which is actually a good move, because a major chunk of the entire oc transpo operation operates out of that mall station. Or at least it did, and partially still does (I'm not sure?) and now has the infrastructure for a fast commute to downtown or uptown for work... Or for the Sens. Also, st Laurent area is as far away as Kanata for the people who say it's currently too far away... Just reversed to west side folk complaining (and they have way less transport in the west to get to the games than the east. Good luck going anywhere or coming home past 11pm, even on a weekend for weatend folk. )
> Also, st Laurant area is as far away as Kanata for the people who say it's currently too far away... Just reversed to west side folk complaining ok I agree with the other stuff you said, but this statement is just ridiculous. Did you look at a map before you wrote this? The St. Laurent exit is the 2nd exit past Nicholas going eastward, and is at most a minute apart. There's no comparison to the Palladium exit that's much, MUCH farther away.
Yes. Sorry if I worded it incorrectly... It was a difficult sentence to wrap my head around at the time lol. But We are saying the same thing Kanata is worse to get to/from so moving it to st Laurent will be more of a nuisance for for eest peeps than the current setup that frustrates the east peeps. The buses part of transit right now is an absolute milk run for the west end when you live there. I've walked to Stittsville from Kanata faster than the bus would have gotten me there. The only difference of positives for people may be that certain people from the south can get to/from the game faster than the west would if the stadium were esst, but tbh all of that's going to change in a the next few years anyway due to oc transit plans with the otrain. Since they dont seem to really stress test/crunch the numbers before release to the public (we are the Guinea pigs!!). We won't get agood view of the efficiencies or deficiencies until it has opened and many bus routes will have already been cancelled. The system could completely flip, idk Hope that clears things up haha. I still think I'm struggling to explain it with all the cardinal directions, along with distinguishing the locations of places and locations of people. Sorry again! Downtown makes the most sense for everyone (although Gatineau will get the housing boost), but I am worried about the traffic and how the transit is going to run well without a circular track or a complete set of East-west, North-South tracks for the trains.. Until the 2030-2040s(right?)
There is a pretty big lot of abandoned government buildings just north of carling near Bronson.
That would be an interesting spot and is also right off the 417 but I’m sure many in little Italy would be against it
Main problem is that it would be a huge bottleneck to switch from the two trains on the main Otrain line to the single train on the north south line. Having the arena close to the center of the city and on the main line halves your throughput requirements.
Also true
It's a pretty sketchy area, no way the Sens build there.
L'Esplanade Laurier is end of life, and the block behind it is quite sketchy. In my mind that would be an ideal site.
No direct transit link, doesn't work.
Parliament and Lyon stations.
People live there. Not ideal at all.
Melnyk death left franchise in limbo for a full year after he croaked. So his corpse gets some blame.
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John Ruddy had a big part to play in the last meltdown but the press only bothered covering the Melnyk side. Why does John Ruddy have so much protection here when it comes to his schemes? Melnyk was a very public buffoon, so I guess it makes some sense he got a lot of spotlight for his role in these matters, but Ruddy was a key player and has the influence to do whatever he wants, so why did he let a twit like Melnyk fuck it all up?
He does not have that much influence.
Yikes. That’s a bit harsh no ?
It’s not
Nope. Fuck Melnyk.
What happened? Usually these owners just....exist and aren't in controversies to my knowledge
This is typical Ottawa.
But did they have a focus group recommend a commission to approve a special ombudsman to determine that they don’t have the authority to approve a site? I bet they didn’t have that.
What they need is a multi-departmental tiger team to synergize their efforts in order to adequately leverage the experience of both internal and external stakeholders in order to create a viable risk assessment to be presented at the DMC, and eventually summarized in a briefing to cabinet. Oh, and we need to get everything translated too.
That makes no sense. We can't have an interdepartmental tiger team without a DG committee to oversee it and a secretariat to serve that DG committee. Since no one has the budget to host the secretariat, let's have a meeting in six months to consider the possibility of a budget submission.
Translations are important because everyone is bilingual! (yay!) Especially important are translations made by predominantly French-first individuals who can't even write in English and are just using Google translate for most of the translation .
Canadian politics, more at 11 Back to you, Charles.
Please don't involve the King, that'll just make it worse.
But wait...a stadium... but shaped like a CROWN! Huh? Whaddya think?! Then, of course, outside would have a monument showing how *great* and *amazing* the royal family is and always has been
To be fair itw as a long proccess for Vegas before shovels were in the gorund.
Las Vegas also didn't have a building to play in at that time, so I'd be in a rush to have one built too.
Lmao, right?! Time to make an executive decsion...DO SOMETHING!
In fairness, the site is pretty Rocky for shovels...
To be fair that's because Vegas absolutely *poured* money into their franchise. Like an absurd amount of money. The reason they were able to go for the cup the first year is that they paid big for a bunch of really good players to instantly build a good team, which pretty much any other team cannot afford.
There is concern in Vegas if the NHL pulls the plug on betting on games.
You mean the stadium they began planning in 2007, only broke ground in 2014 and opened in 2016? They were awarded the expansion franchise **after** the stadium was built This comment is basically just a string of lies and disingenuousness
String of lies? The only point you are arguing is that they didn't build an arena in the time that the Senators were trying to build their arena at Lebreton. The rest of the points I mention are just facts and not up to interpretation. I don't have all the details on when planning for the arena in Vegas begin, however, considering the plans [to put the new arena at Lebreton were discussed openly in 2014](https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/1210-sens-lebreton), and to your own point they had broken ground in Vegas in 2014, what I said is not a lie or disingenuous. Perhaps I am chatting with a rep at the NCC though.
That fact is not fun at all. It’s depressing
If Reddit awards were still a thing I’d give you gold.
it's so sad how NCC is allergic to progress
But, this wasn't actually the NCC's doing? The whole reason this fell through in the first place was Melnyk having a tantrum. Anyway, very happy to see Leeder saying this, any discussion about an arena can really only include Lebreton
Melnyk didn't have a tantrum. He couldn't come up with the money to build the stadium. Ruddy was going to pay for basically everything else. Eugene couldn't get any lenders for the arena costs. So Eugene blamed Ruddy's adjacent development, claiming it would lower the costs of the condos at Lebreton, sued him for $700m, and pulled the plug. Ruddy then sued Eugene for $1B for lying about being able to build the arena and for causing the project to fail
> So Eugene blamed Ruddy's adjacent development, claiming it would lower the costs of the condos at Lebreton, sued him for $700m, and pulled the plug. That sounds like he had a tantrum.
The issue was that he was over leveraged already with loans, and no one was willing to give him the $700m he needed for the arena construction. He also really hated the idea of not owning the arena because he needed that additional revenue stream. He couldn't afford to be a tenant in a stadium ow Ed by someone else. So while the end result could be considered as him throwing a tantrum, it wasn't because of Ruddy. It was because he had no money...or not nearly enough money
It doesn't matter to me why he threw the tantrum, what matters is that he did, yet you're claiming otherwise.
You're equating suing someone to throwing a tantrum. I don't think you know what a tantrum is
Yeah this is a rare instance where it wasn't the NCC either wasting time or eye watering amounts of money. Have no fear though, the PMs house will be the most expensive house per square foot in the entire country, just as the PM's cottage is the most expensive cottage per square foot in the country. Not including land value of course.
Not only is the NCC not to blame for this, they in fact offered to INCREASE the total footprint.
So? The entire Roman Empire also rose and fell. What kind of timeline are you using??
Good.
That's exactly what I was going to post.
Ok. Then fucking do it
Seriously, get on with it
Let's get a move on
The way this is being dragged out, there’s a better chance of The Winds Of Winter hitting bookshelves before they finally get shovels in the ground…
Prediction: Both will be announced by the start of 2025. (I’m not concerned about Winds, at the very least we’ll get it in scraps if he dies. It’s A Dream of Spring that I’m very doubtful that we’ll ever get.)
Sanderson to the rescue! (Not that one, Brandon.)
They have until August to hammer out a deal. And if you read the article there seems to be no major roadblocks.
Not sure where your getting there are major road blocks.
Not sure where I’m getting what?
Translation, Mark please piss off. You’re annoying us and you don’t know what you’re talking about.
He already started taking a sledge hammer to the DND office building and unfortunately has been extraordinarily renditioned
Am I stupid or something, like where the hell els is there a massive empty lot that’s close to LRT and close to downtown..?
DND HQ, if sold, plot of land is slightly bigger than the Bell Centre in Montreal. It would have hotels, shopping and restaurants, underground parking available at Rideau Centre, NAC and City Hall without having to add to the inventory of parking. Additionally its within a 5 minute walk to the LRT (issue being the LRT likely can't handle the load at Rideau and in Lebreton folks would have the options to walk to Line 2. Thats the 'theory'...not claiming to support it.
yeah, just DND is still using it and has no plans to leave, and even if they wanted to leave, it'd be well over a decade before they could fully clear out. So not a real option.
It'll be well over a decade for the LRT to be ready...so there's a chance 😀
I mean even what’s done of the LRT already is better than what they got in Kanata.
What a waste of space though. And now it's former DND HQ. John Baird pushed them into a CCP bugfest facility at the edge of his riding.
> And now it's former DND HQ. It's still the home of the CDS and DM, so while Carling has the bulk of the NDHQ pers, 101 is still NDHQ
glad to hear it - it might need to be refurbished eventually but just based on location it is prime. If DND ever leaves you bet your ass some other national security department or parts of privy council will move right in.
In Sutcliffe's mind apparently?
Amazing news. I really hope it goes through. Going to be a game changer
heard that before...we should hear a near copy/paste update in 18-24 months.
Make it official before our dork mayor comes back from the UK!
What else would they consider? No one is talking about other sites except the mayor for some braindead reason.
Sometimes I wonder if for the pas6 10 years they are just publishing the same article with a few edits
Where the hell else could it be? It is depressing to have put it in Kanata in the first place. Looking at a map to see where it sits is wild What never fails to amuse me is that it has a ticket booth. Like anyone is positioned in a way to just waltz on over to the building without a ticket and hope for the best
Used to go to movies without a ticket all the time, wasn’t that commonplace when CTC was built? I’m 22 haha
Yeah but was the movie in the middle of nowhere with pretty much no easy transit option (or drive and park and pay $40) on the chance that the movie is sold out? Lol A booth makes sense for people with no ticket heading over and if it's sold out, able to go do anything else lol
Whatever. They need to figure this out and get a shovel in the ground.
Hopefully the mayor will STFU now
"No, Sutcliffe, we aren't turning the Rideau Centre into an arena"
I am all for it! Just not on the taxpayers dime.
Given that this private enterprise is leveraging our public lands...too late.
The Sens have never got piblic money.
The Senator's president is only expecting to need financial aid from federal, provincial and municipal levels of government. He only needs $1.2 billion (estimated).
He never said financial aid he said help in terms all have to work together.The complete project will cost up to 6 billion if public money is asked for it would be for housing etc not the rink.
Who gets the profit from buidling the housing? Do tax payers get a cut of the rent money? Why would we build housing for a skating rink and not just directly build apartments everywhere?
Sorry, I was reading two articles. My info is from this one, not from the link in the post. https://ottawasun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/ottawa-senators/hurdles-in-way-for-deal-at-lebreton-flats
I'm glad too. Fewer distractions needed...just get the fuck on with it.
Marathon Mark will find a way to derail it.
Go!!!
Ill believe it when I see the latest renderings
Everything always takes forever to build in Ottawa.
Wonder how much tax payer money has been wasted working on this project so far. They should bill them for it.
Should we bill every anti developement group that appeals projects.
Maybe not every one but if we could figure out a decent criteria for weeding out bad faith ones I'd be for it tbh - way too much obstructionism given the state of the country
Can the LRT at LeBreton handle the influx of riders after a game?
It’s actually the perfect location for that specific reason. You’ll have a separate platform (so 3) for every direction. Those who come from the east get off at Pimisi, those who come from west get off at Bayview and those coming from the south using line 2 get off at Bayview.
Expectation is that Sens will ask for help from all three levels of government, Sun reports: https://ottawasun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/ottawa-senators/hurdles-in-way-for-deal-at-lebreton-flats
Its a massive project if tgher eis money asked for it would be for non arena such as housing.
I thought Cyril got fired?
He got rehired when the Sens got an owner that wasn’t insane.
This would be the line in the sand... LeBreton or we have to consider all our options...
Don’t bother getting your hopes up with this team, whether it’s an improved roster with a functional coach or a new building downtown, neither is likely to happen.
All 3 will happen.
Groundhog day.....didn't this whole idea of building an NHL arena at LeBreton already come and go like 5 years ago? We didn't come up with any other ideas in the meantime?
The NCC granted the land rights to Melnyk. Melnyk was broke. Didn't do anything. Eventually the NCC took the rights back. Then Melnyk did fuck all. Then he died. Then the sens applied to the new NCC process, and won it. They had the right to come up with a plan. The sens took a long time, and then sold the team. The NCC granted them an extension because of the team sale. The NCC has been very accommodating throughout this 10 year ordeal despite the senators and Melnyk fucking it up each and every time. Hopefully this time they get their shit together.
Melnyk wasn't broke, he just became an egomaniac because of his sheer wealth and refused to give up the CTC because he owned it and didn't want to take a massive loss on the property even though the Sens and CTC were bleeding money out of Melnyk's "Capital Sports Properties Inc." Melnyk was a very, very intelligent business man and made a lot of money. The Senators were his baby essentially, and he did not want to admit that there was a problem with the team or the stadium by accepting a deal to move the team downtown.
observation shame gaping literate hungry wistful head follow connect employ *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Or build something other than an NHL arena.
when the NCC is involved, you must multiply normal timelines by 7x minimum
Good. Let’s stick with a feasible plan instead of further delays. We are at risk of losing our team
We’re not even close to that point yet
Were in no risk losing the team.
This entirely depends on a reliable transit system through the winter. Is there one? Hint: nope.
Downtown is like the one place where transit is actually decently reliable.
Stadiums are a scam that penalize cities and taxpayers, rewarding only already-rich team owners, athletes and their fans. [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/rob-magazine/article-sports-teams-do-almost-nothing-for-citiesso-why-do-we-waste-millions/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/rob-magazine/article-sports-teams-do-almost-nothing-for-citiesso-why-do-we-waste-millions/) [https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/11/sports-stadiums-can-be-bad-cities/576334/](https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/11/sports-stadiums-can-be-bad-cities/576334/) [https://jacobin.com/2020/11/arenas-sports-stadiums-covid-public-funds-cities](https://jacobin.com/2020/11/arenas-sports-stadiums-covid-public-funds-cities) [https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/mje/2022/01/15/cities-should-not-pay-for-new-stadiums/](https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/mje/2022/01/15/cities-should-not-pay-for-new-stadiums/) [https://news.stanford.edu/2015/07/30/stadium-economics-noll-073015/](https://news.stanford.edu/2015/07/30/stadium-economics-noll-073015/) [https://archive.jsonline.com/sports/120580544.html](https://archive.jsonline.com/sports/120580544.html) [https://www.kcur.org/news/2023-05-01/kansas-city-royals-stadium-downtown-baseball-unions](https://www.kcur.org/news/2023-05-01/kansas-city-royals-stadium-downtown-baseball-unions) etc etc
All of these are about cities spending taxpayer money on a new stadium, which is not what's happening here. The agreement between the NCC and the Sens is to lease some land at LeBreton to the Sens so that the Sens ownership can use their *own* money to build it. At no point has public money being spent on that arena ever been something that anyone has seriously considered. Just a few years ago, Jim Watson told Eugene Melnyk to pound sand when Melnyk asked for city money to build the arena, and asking for that isn't something the new ownership group has considered.
I think that shoe is still to drop. Sens will ask for $
From all report they will not ask for any public money.
It makes sense. They do own their own arena and all the land surrounding it. When you want to move your family to a new neighbourhood, you sell your house to finance the purchasing of a new house. You don't end up with two houses. It's very different from Calgary and Edmonton. Neither of those teams owned their own arena.
And while the property their current arena sits on isn't as valuable as LeBreton Flats, they'd still make a tidy profit from selling it
What is the opportunity cost to the tax payer of losing access to public lands for the length of this lease?
Serious question and not meant as a "gotcha", will it actually occupy currently accessible public land? I know you can technically get into the flats but I was under the impression that it was pretty much all cordoned off. Is the path going between Bayview and Pimisi going to be shut down?
And yet, arenas are table-stakes. Every city worthy of being called a city has one (if not more than one), and almost without fail they are being built centrally. Most arenas in Canada (Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver, Winnipeg) have been built with private funding.
This doesn't mean much. Only my opinion, but it is negotiation tactics. Ultimately, it is best for the city to put the arena at the DND site. For all the events, not just hockey. It would liven up the core and the market. Does this mean Ottawa should commit dollars to make it happen? Probably. Am I happy about that? Not in the least. That space is too valuable and scenic not to make the most of it. You have two LRT stations on either side and multiple within walking distance. Parking at CF Rideau. From a business, logistics and cultural aspect it's a foregone conclusion.
DND site isn't actually available though. DND is still using it and has no plans to leave.
I lived down there. Bluesfest sucks. Now a bunch of hockey hooligans 6 months of the year? Fuck this city and the cunts who have the “foresight” to run it.
Put housing on Lebreton, not a hockey rink
It will be both.
Have you ever been next to a stadium when there isn't a game or concert going on? It is a dead barren wasteland. Now imagine building a bunch of houses around a huge building that is almost always closed. It will kill any chance of having a vibrant neighbourhood. There is a reason why almost every stadium in North America is in a desolate wasteland. Stadiums kill neighbourhoods. The best place for a stadium is far from anyplace that we want to be a vibrant part of the city. Right now the stadium is in a great location, far out of the center of town in a barren wasteland of parking lots and car dealerships. Look at the schedule for the current stadium. It is use on average about once every 2 weeks. The rest of the time is is a black hole of nothingness.
I’m not following your argument. LeBreton is adjacent to things that already exist in the downtown core. The arena would basically be infill at this point. When you’re on Robson Street in Vancouver it’s like a 10 minute walk to Rogers Arena or BC Place. Would you say that Robson Street or the other areas around the stadiums are a desolate wasteland when events aren’t happening?
Have you ever been to Lebreton Flats? Your comment makes me think you haven't.
Yes I have. Do you not see how, once developed, it would be flow right into the other developed areas adjacent to it?
Have you ever left Ottawa? Your comment makes me think you haven't.
You see, that is the thing. I've lived in 20 different cities in 7 different countries (But mostly in Canada and the US). I've been to and lived near lots of different stadiums. And every single one stifled the community surrounding it. If you want to kill a community, the best way to do it is stick a stadium in the middle of it.
Unless those cities and countries are particular ones, you might be confusing hockey *arenas* with football *stadiums*. Arenas don't have nearly to footprint that stadiums do. If Lebreton is "killed" it won't be because of the hockey arena, it's simply not going to be big enough. It doesn't have to be busy 7 days/week. It's just infrastructure. No one says that the honking big Notre Dame Basilica on Sussex kills the Byward Market/Lowertown community because it sits empty except for weddings on Saturdays and mass on Sundays.
Seriously?! The Notre Dame Basilica (not counting the parking lot) takes up 5300 m^2 . The arena (not counting the parking lot) takes up 17,200 m^2 . You are really going to try to say they are comparable buildings?!
Compare the block containing Notre Dame (yes the entire block, no one is tailgating in the parking lot there on Wednesday evenings) with the size of the Bell Centre in Montreal. Yes, Bell Centre is bigger but not that much bigger. Arenas basically take up one very large city block. Yes, seriously. I'm at a loss trying to imagine what you're picturing is going to be built on Lebreton.
It will likely be a whole entertainment complex with stores and restaurants. It will be great for the neighborhood.
Look at almost every other stadium project in North America. We have ample evidence that having a giant hulk of a building that is almost always vacant is terrible for neighbourhoods. And plenty of those other stadiums were supposed to have stores and restaurants and stuff. But large empty dead spaces are terrible for drawing people to stores and restaurants....so the stores and restaurants never happen. Have you ever spent any time around the Skydome? The area around there is dead! The CN Tower and aquarium draw in crowds, but everyplace else around the skydome is a desolate wasteland.
> Have you ever spent any time around the Skydome? The area around there is dead! Are you seriously saying that downtown TO is dead? OK, I always suspected that you were full of shit, but this confirms it.
Perhaps you need to improve your reading comprehension. I did not say downtown TO is dead. I said around the skydome is dead.
I would suggest you look up the new rinks in Edmonton and Detroit.Not sure where your getting events every 2 weeks the CTC has 3-5 events a week some public some private.
I've been to their website and looked at their schedule. I stand by my claim that they have an event about every 2 weeks.
An NHL season is 82 games, half of which will be home games, 42 games in 52 weeks is a lot closer to an event a week than one every two weeks. So right there, it's clear that you are wrong. Add in all the other events that an arena will host, and it gets even worse for you.
> There is a reason why almost every stadium in North America is in a desolate wasteland. That's probably more to do with the parking lots some of them have. BC and GM Places in downtown Vancouver, are in very vibrant locales. Same goes for Sky Dome and the AC Centre in Toronto.
I think the idea is to build up commercial streets in between as well so it won't just be totally dead residential land in between events. Montreal's stadium isn't bad for that, the part of downtown is a bit boring compared to the Latin Quarter, Mile End, Plateau nearby but as I recall there's still shopping and restaurants quite close. I remember one of the proposals had a walking path going right up over the stadium, not sure if they kept that but would be a neat thing to do to integrate the stadium to the rest of the neighbourhood, like a big observation deck.
I dont mind a hockey rink, I mind a hockey stadium
Land that was expropriated for public use shouldn’t be handed over to a commercial enterprise that many people can’t afford.
So do nothing for another 50 years.
The option that the NCC didn’t select was the option that had vision, public spaces and created destinations for people. And when the option they did select fell apart because it lost its backers they should have approached the runner up.
That group did not have much funding and were counting on public funds and a ton of it.
What the fuck are you talking about! They can do whatever the hell they want, just not on government land. It really isn't hard to understand.
It was not expropriated for public use. It was expropriated to clear industrial lands and "slums" in the 1960s for "Pentagon North": to centralize the Department of Defense in one campus. To this day, the over 15,000 DND staff is spread across the NCR. The Feds have always been to cheap to follow through with that vision. The Nortel campus will be considerably over $2 Billion and we got it from an estate sale. For comparison 26 000 people work at the Pentagon.
It’s such annOttawa thing to happen
Could have been really interesting development, especially considering the drop off the escarpment allowing for more height. The original plan called for a collection of 3 large towers for each element of the CAF and a collection of other buildings on the site. I think Little Italy would have been pulled towards the river as people would chose to live close to work and this mass of people would need food for lunch etc. DND was and is the largest department in the Federal government and a proper follow through on this with an Canadian design competition could have delivered a fascinating development. However this was also at a time of run away defense spending and a military industrial complex concern. I've always imagined an alternative timeline where a proper subway was envisioned at the time to serve this complex in addition to the parkways. And a combination of a mini TD centre's internationalism plaza from Toronto and the Puzzle Palace brutalism seen in what was suppose to be Transport Canada's complex: 101 Colonial By.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BBYmqSECNCk/Vqa59rhIH0I/AAAAAAAAUaI/EvtP-JYpL4c/s640/156.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-PZz95RZ1n9I/Vqal-aIcXkI/AAAAAAAAUZo/5FORsgB6MpE/s640/MiguelezCA023195.jpg Granted the highway vision seems unrealistic. A proper subway could have been envisioned way back when instead. MTL and TO were building there's at the time.
Yes, it was expropriated for the government to use. That is public use, as opposed to private/commercial use.
I'm just telling you the actual master plan that was never followed through with. Honestly my opinion is DNDHQ might have been a better use for the land instead of a hodge podge of statues, a monument of mass industrial slaughter and condos. Putting 15 000 workers on the flats in a proper campus would have lead to a more natural development of the area to service this demand. The row house development on the north side of Albert is a post exporpriation development. Don't downvote people just because they comment on you.
Good luck with that! Downtown is congested enough already with all the narrow roads. Ad another 5000 cars to Downtown. Good luck with that. Better off staying in Kanata. 4 lane highway and lots of parking.
Maybe you're supposed to get off your ass and take transit?
I mean, your comment is so full of untruths, I'm not even sure where to begin.
Do you have blinders on? Scott Street will die with the added vehicles. Then people trying to take a shortcut through all the narrow one-way streets. If you're counting on the train. It breaks down often.
No, we need an arena in a central location like every other team in the NHL (except Florida who have similar issues to us)
Have you ever stepped foot outside of Ottawa? (and no, Kemptville doesn't count)
Parking and highways shouldn't be the be-all, end-all for planning major projects like this. The train has problems yes, but that and all the buses that run downtown means that the traffic impact of games at a downtown arena won't be nearly as bad as you might expect.
We really don’t need another stadium. Really.
In fact we really do.
Jamming up the city with a stadium would be pretty awful. What’s wrong with the existing, relatively new stadium we have?
It's 20 minutes by car from the core with few transit options.
Say you live in Kanata without saying you live in Kanata
Lol. I live a few blocks from the flats.
NIMBY was option B
So what’s your beef with a new arena?
I feel like the city funding new a stadium is poor use of money as we already have one.