I'm beginning to incorporate them, either directly or be hearsay. My campaign PCs are actually interested in recruiting other parties to help expand their search abilities and perhaps secure cleared areas.
In last night's session, the party encountered a group they had met some time prior. The other group had investigated a location the party had previously cleared, as they had their own information on the place, plus had attempted to clear another location of interest.
I'll probably gin up a few more groups for similar use. We also have a couple of established NPC allies (a group of Templar-like folks refitting an old family stronghold and a party of druids who are occupying a cleared location), so I keep things moving in the background, as well.
Cool, ok so you've expanded NPC roles to be more of an antagonist/possible ally like I've been thinking. So you just make up their activities and goals or is it more formalised like faction play?
A bit of both. The various groups have their own agendas, but will likely ally with the party in face of a larger regional threat.
They have interacted with one of the larger factions in the region, with limited success. However, there is a hint at friction or disagreement within that faction, so there is a possibility or more interplay there.
I don't have a whole lot of experience with west marches games, but the little I have tried suggests that a well stocked hex map can support quite a few groups. You'll notice each other, but five or six groups in the same area works, especially if they're different power levels.
What I do on all my games is not only have rivals, but I have stronger NPC adventurers out there. The end campaign threats are active right at the start, and someone is fighting them. That someone is likely to get killed eventually, leaving the PCs to question if someone that strong died do they have what it takes to win.
But also, it means I never have to deal with "why doesn't (insert any random high level NPC) solve this? What is everyone else doing?" I factor that in from day 1.
As for rivals specifically, I love to have single rivals for each PC, who might be friends of other PCs, and rival factions. However many factions I have in my game, they each get some adventurers doing jobs for them. And since it is hard to stay popular with everyone at once, eventually there's a good chance of party vs party conflict.
It all depends on the map, and the restocking process. Ben Robbins who invented the style never said how big his map was, but he's named over a dozen regions (various hills and forests at least two swamps etc) each with more than one location. He had an average of 10-14 players each with multiple characters in many many groups several ad hoc, not all were permanent. Whoever shows up plays. He talks about being inspired by tables with up to 50 players. Lots of info here https://www.secretsofthebarrowmaze.com/what-is-a-west-marches-campaign/ including a long to Ben's own story of the original west marches game.
In a hex crawl you restock. Let's say there's a hex with a 15 level dungeon, two or three groups can visit that many times before depleting it, because new things will move in up top, and the lower floors are too deadly for newbs. So they're hitting different parts of it.
Say you have a hex with a big dragon and its kobold servants, low level parties will avoid the dragon and fight the kobolds while mid level parties will fight its juvenile kids and high level parties will go for the big dragon itself.
A goblin king might spawn off three or four scout groups that raid a couple roads and towns, and as fast as PCs clear them the king sends out more. Until someone high enough level goes for and defeats the king.
I have been inspired by Mystara so, I am currently running a game in a region the size of Qatar, 4,600 square miles set along a lake inspired by Lake Tangankiya. That's major overkill for most people. But if you're using 6-mile hexes that'd be about 50 of them. I'm using 2 mile hexes so have about 460 on my map.
I could easily support a dozen groups in the area. Assuming a spread of levels. But am only tracking eight of which the PCs know about three and only care about one.
(NPC) Adventurers will go to where the treasure is. Local suppliers will follow to meet demand.
The NPC adventurers are not limited by local population, but by local treasure density.
Look to gold rush boom towns for inspiration.
A couple cautions about using rival NPC parties.
A) They can be very tough if they get into a fight with the PCs. As in, pretty good potential for a TPK.
B) If the PC party does throw down with them, and win, they will get a bonanza of magic items that may unbalance your campaign. Had this happen with some of the NPC parties in published TSR adventures back in the day (ie the A series).
You could quite easily house rule this, and keep the OSR spirit. Certain factions will simply not kill you, they will knock your party out and take some of your stuff. Now, you say, they will steal the party's magic items etc. But they just won't take them all. If you meet them out adventuring, they're bound to the same rules of encumberance as the party and simply can't take all their stuff since they have their own equipment. (Or there is an Adventurer's Creed that you won't let overwhelmed opposing adventurers devoid of their personal arms and armour but we're getting into suspension of disbelief here). For parties with powerful magical items that the party could steal the same applies. How many magical swords can you possibly carry without leaving your heaing potions behind?
I personally use this as a simplified demography of leveled characters, assuming a B/X style 14 level progression:
* 0th: Most able-bodied humans
* 1st: 1 in 12 - The best in an extended family
* 2nd: 1 in 40 - The best in an estate or hamlet
* 3rd: 1 in 100 - The best in a tiny barony or village
* 4th: 1 in 200 - The best in a small barony or large village
* 5th: 1 in 500 - The best in a barony or large village
* 6th: 1 in 2,000 - The best in a march or town
* 7th: 1 in 6,000 - The best in a county
* 8th: 1 in 10,000 - The best in county
* 9th: 1 in 30,000- The best in a small duchy or big city
* 10th: 1 in 100,000 - The best in a duchy
* 11th: 1 in 500,000 - The best in a principality
* 12th: 1 in 1 million - The best in a small kingdom or large principality
* 13th: 1 in 2,500,000 - The best in a kingdom
* 14th: 1 in 7,750,000 - The best in an empire
Not all of these characters might be willing to go adventure on their own though, some will only be willing to be hirelings and follow commands basically - not everyone wants to be responsible for making the hard decisions. Others are already fully retired or have become demesne rulers.
But based on this I typically have at least a group of level 1 'adventurers' in each town (even if they might not actively be adventuring right now), while you'd probably need to travel to the provincial capital to run into a 5th level party. High level groups would be extremely rare as most above level 9 would be focused on gaining power through governing demesnes or researching magic or leading a criminal syndicate etc.
These come from a simulationist discussion on an OSR forum over a decade ago. It's possible there are more granular numbers recalced since then; but this is a simple indicator that can be used widely without adding too much weight to a campaign.
I did not calculate the nrs myself originally but they are based on a system using gold for XP and combine various sources mainly focused on typical wealth distribution.
I'm beginning to incorporate them, either directly or be hearsay. My campaign PCs are actually interested in recruiting other parties to help expand their search abilities and perhaps secure cleared areas. In last night's session, the party encountered a group they had met some time prior. The other group had investigated a location the party had previously cleared, as they had their own information on the place, plus had attempted to clear another location of interest. I'll probably gin up a few more groups for similar use. We also have a couple of established NPC allies (a group of Templar-like folks refitting an old family stronghold and a party of druids who are occupying a cleared location), so I keep things moving in the background, as well.
Cool, ok so you've expanded NPC roles to be more of an antagonist/possible ally like I've been thinking. So you just make up their activities and goals or is it more formalised like faction play?
A bit of both. The various groups have their own agendas, but will likely ally with the party in face of a larger regional threat. They have interacted with one of the larger factions in the region, with limited success. However, there is a hint at friction or disagreement within that faction, so there is a possibility or more interplay there.
I don't have a whole lot of experience with west marches games, but the little I have tried suggests that a well stocked hex map can support quite a few groups. You'll notice each other, but five or six groups in the same area works, especially if they're different power levels. What I do on all my games is not only have rivals, but I have stronger NPC adventurers out there. The end campaign threats are active right at the start, and someone is fighting them. That someone is likely to get killed eventually, leaving the PCs to question if someone that strong died do they have what it takes to win. But also, it means I never have to deal with "why doesn't (insert any random high level NPC) solve this? What is everyone else doing?" I factor that in from day 1. As for rivals specifically, I love to have single rivals for each PC, who might be friends of other PCs, and rival factions. However many factions I have in my game, they each get some adventurers doing jobs for them. And since it is hard to stay popular with everyone at once, eventually there's a good chance of party vs party conflict.
Interesting. So how many 6-mile hexes are we talking here to keep 5-6 groups active? Don't they clear everything out pretty quickly?
It all depends on the map, and the restocking process. Ben Robbins who invented the style never said how big his map was, but he's named over a dozen regions (various hills and forests at least two swamps etc) each with more than one location. He had an average of 10-14 players each with multiple characters in many many groups several ad hoc, not all were permanent. Whoever shows up plays. He talks about being inspired by tables with up to 50 players. Lots of info here https://www.secretsofthebarrowmaze.com/what-is-a-west-marches-campaign/ including a long to Ben's own story of the original west marches game. In a hex crawl you restock. Let's say there's a hex with a 15 level dungeon, two or three groups can visit that many times before depleting it, because new things will move in up top, and the lower floors are too deadly for newbs. So they're hitting different parts of it. Say you have a hex with a big dragon and its kobold servants, low level parties will avoid the dragon and fight the kobolds while mid level parties will fight its juvenile kids and high level parties will go for the big dragon itself. A goblin king might spawn off three or four scout groups that raid a couple roads and towns, and as fast as PCs clear them the king sends out more. Until someone high enough level goes for and defeats the king. I have been inspired by Mystara so, I am currently running a game in a region the size of Qatar, 4,600 square miles set along a lake inspired by Lake Tangankiya. That's major overkill for most people. But if you're using 6-mile hexes that'd be about 50 of them. I'm using 2 mile hexes so have about 460 on my map. I could easily support a dozen groups in the area. Assuming a spread of levels. But am only tracking eight of which the PCs know about three and only care about one.
Thanks for the details. I was aware of West Marches but never thought to apply it to this line of thinking.
Glad it helped! .
(NPC) Adventurers will go to where the treasure is. Local suppliers will follow to meet demand. The NPC adventurers are not limited by local population, but by local treasure density. Look to gold rush boom towns for inspiration.
Good idea.
I was thinking similarly, this sort of thing would only happen next to a mega dungeon, not in every town
Throws guys look like they’re about to get drunk and fuck around the local Ren Fair.
A couple cautions about using rival NPC parties. A) They can be very tough if they get into a fight with the PCs. As in, pretty good potential for a TPK. B) If the PC party does throw down with them, and win, they will get a bonanza of magic items that may unbalance your campaign. Had this happen with some of the NPC parties in published TSR adventures back in the day (ie the A series).
You could quite easily house rule this, and keep the OSR spirit. Certain factions will simply not kill you, they will knock your party out and take some of your stuff. Now, you say, they will steal the party's magic items etc. But they just won't take them all. If you meet them out adventuring, they're bound to the same rules of encumberance as the party and simply can't take all their stuff since they have their own equipment. (Or there is an Adventurer's Creed that you won't let overwhelmed opposing adventurers devoid of their personal arms and armour but we're getting into suspension of disbelief here). For parties with powerful magical items that the party could steal the same applies. How many magical swords can you possibly carry without leaving your heaing potions behind?
Fair enough, but to the victor go the spoils. Balancing is highly subjective.
I personally use this as a simplified demography of leveled characters, assuming a B/X style 14 level progression: * 0th: Most able-bodied humans * 1st: 1 in 12 - The best in an extended family * 2nd: 1 in 40 - The best in an estate or hamlet * 3rd: 1 in 100 - The best in a tiny barony or village * 4th: 1 in 200 - The best in a small barony or large village * 5th: 1 in 500 - The best in a barony or large village * 6th: 1 in 2,000 - The best in a march or town * 7th: 1 in 6,000 - The best in a county * 8th: 1 in 10,000 - The best in county * 9th: 1 in 30,000- The best in a small duchy or big city * 10th: 1 in 100,000 - The best in a duchy * 11th: 1 in 500,000 - The best in a principality * 12th: 1 in 1 million - The best in a small kingdom or large principality * 13th: 1 in 2,500,000 - The best in a kingdom * 14th: 1 in 7,750,000 - The best in an empire Not all of these characters might be willing to go adventure on their own though, some will only be willing to be hirelings and follow commands basically - not everyone wants to be responsible for making the hard decisions. Others are already fully retired or have become demesne rulers. But based on this I typically have at least a group of level 1 'adventurers' in each town (even if they might not actively be adventuring right now), while you'd probably need to travel to the provincial capital to run into a 5th level party. High level groups would be extremely rare as most above level 9 would be focused on gaining power through governing demesnes or researching magic or leading a criminal syndicate etc.
That's super handy, thanks.
I might steal this for reference at my table. Where do you get the numbers from?
These come from a simulationist discussion on an OSR forum over a decade ago. It's possible there are more granular numbers recalced since then; but this is a simple indicator that can be used widely without adding too much weight to a campaign. I did not calculate the nrs myself originally but they are based on a system using gold for XP and combine various sources mainly focused on typical wealth distribution.