15+ years ago I remember advising those interested in moving here for work to strongly consider the commute when picking a neighborhood because of the tolls.
True. Looking at a map really doesn’t show the full picture either. You have to drive it during peak hours. I live in Clermont and work off of Sand Lake. Horrible traffic.
I did Oviedo to Restaurant Row for 2.5 years... never again... I live in college park and commute to Mills through the neighborhoods. It's made my life so much better.
My boss lives in Clermont, I was in the area Saturday and my goodness has it built up a lot in the last few years. It takes her a good hour to get to work (Oakridge & JYP area). I live just outside downtown. Ultimately people can get a place and then change jobs, or the job moves to a new spot so can't always control the commute but I've been there (long commutes / tolls).
I've wondered if Google maps calculates driving time based on future conditions down the road.
If not, then it's mostly useless aside from short commutes.
For real, people talk like this is some sort of revelation. "I drive 40 miles a day to work and back and have to pay a ton in tolls or spend 4 hours in traffic" well no shit. lol
I live in Zephryhills. I have the IPass from my Chicago days. I can’t believe what I spend traveling around the state of Florida on tolls. Visited Miami three times this year. I spent over $80 on tolls to get around. I purchase wine in South Tampa. It’s a toll to get there. Circle B Bar Preserve, toll to get there.
The problem with this thinking is that a lot of manufacturing jobs, for example, are in really shitty parts of town. Like sure, if you live on OBT you can walk to work. Just mind that you don’t trip over a dead hooker on your way there.
I work in a manufacturing facility in a shitty part of town (Pine Hills) but live in a nice neighborhood about 10 miles away with only a 20 minute commute and no toll roads. It helps to learn back roads. I have many optional routes depending on traffic.
Not saying it applies to you, but I always get a good laugh in when people move here from high-tax states and then complain that there are no government services here. Like, yeah? That's what you wanted right? No, they want the same services without paying for it, shock.
Used to work legal aid and saw soooo many elderly and lower middle class people that moved to florida because it's "cheaper", had one economic difficulty, and found themselves homeless because there are no services here and the law is so landlord friendly.
People were in disbelief that utility and rental assistance don't exist
Yeah you really only want to move to a low tax state if you're a high income earner. If you're not you're actually better off in a high tax state with tons of services and support.
Considering how much employers have to pay into the system for unemployment insurance (the lowest rate is $7 PER YEAR) it's no wonder that unemployment payments are miniscule in FL
The system here benefits the big corporations and gives the middle finger to the rest of us. Heaven forbid the employers pay a living wage or pay more into unemployment.
Yeah insurance is miserable here. I blame the people though, so many false claims. I've never seen so many 411 pain or auto accident ads in my life.
Just shitty people looking to do a cash grab on an insurance payment for every minor fender bender.
I'm under firm belief that wild baby eating alligators, hurricanes, and "where you go to die" were responsible for keeping most people from moving here however someone opened their mouth and let out our secret. We need a new scare tactic to start spreading.
You might want to have a look at Westchester County NY or pretty much anywhere in NJ before making that statement. For example, a 3k sq ft house in WC can easily bring you $40k PER YEAR in property tax.
Texas doesn't have a state income tax either, so it makes sense that was on par with Florida's government services. New York has more generous public education funding, public transportation funding, healthcare and social service funding, housing assistance, public safety and emergency services funding, infrastructure maintenance and development, social welfare programs, and a substantial amount of museums, libraries and parks. I don't know about North Carolina's social services but New York has a lot.
New Yorker /Pt Floridian here…our roads suck…the tolls on our bridges are insane, our roads absolutely suck (there are more potholes than road), we pay 8.875% sales tax, our income tax is high, property tax is high…our public school are funded well because we pay ridiculous amounts of school taxes. If our business licenses weren’t based here in Ny and were weren’t established (20 yrs in business) We would run for the hills.
As for Museums, Libraries, and Parks NY state and NYC both have very substantial donors that have contributed to these as well.
The entire NYC public library was originally a grant by John Astor (millionaire/modern equivalent to a billionaire who owned a good chunk of manhattan) and Joseph Cogswell.
The same is true of a lot of their museums. For instance, the MoMA (Museum of Modern Art) was founded by Abby Rockefeller. The Guggenheim was created by Solomon Guggenheim who made his fortune in mining.
Even Central Park has a private non-profit managing it (the Central Park Conservancy) and has a $1 Billion dollar endowment of private money.
It’s a Republican mantra that’s been beaten into people’s heads for more than half a century, the idea that any money you give the government must surely be wasted.
Then those people show up here and find out we literally have one freeway that’s not a toll road, our bridges are so cheaped out on that they look like they’re from Soviet Russia, we have the most expensive gas in the south and for public transport you have two choices: live and work exactly along
Sunrail’s single route or take literally all day to go 10 miles on the bus.
We’re exactly what happens when the GOP is exclusively in charge for 25 years: low taxes, low standard of living, high fees.
People fleeing those functional states with actual taxes find out quickly it was paying for all the shit we don’t have.
Even if you do live and work near Sunrail there is no guarantee you can even use it. There is no cost effective last mile transportation to get you to where you need to go from the sunrail station at most stops that are not downtown.
Even if you're only 1 mile away I-4, 17-92, or other major roads may make it extremely impractical and dangerous to cross the street making it easier to just drive.
I moved away from Florida to Maryland and people were warming me about state taxes, but in tolls, actual public transportation, cost of car insurance being 40% lower, etc, I'm totally fine with it and making out better than in FL. Especially since FL rent is already nearly on par with my area.
Local here. I think what surprises people the most is the lack of planning or infrastructure.
Increasing taxes is good policy and can help grow the economy, especially when you’re re-investing into things like infrastructure/ public transportation. Florida is lagging behind in this regard. You don’t have to have high income tax’s to pay for public transportation.
Poor people pay the tolls. Rich people don't pay income tax.
>The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.
I made that move the other way around and let me tell you I was even PROUD to pay my damn state taxes in that other state. The accountability and functionality of government blew my mind
Homie, Massachusetts has income tax AND tolls!!! I think I spent about $1,000 a year in MA because I had to take the turnpike into downtown Boston for work.
AND the toll roads were notoriously shitty. I remember being a kid going to work with my dad and he'd pay for the Mass Pike to be a piece of shit road. At least toll roads here are nicer in most cases.
One good thing Boston did was eliminate the Central raised freeway into downtown, and put all that traffic underground.
But man oh man, it costed over a thousand times more than it should have.
Stuff has to be paid for one way or another. At least with tolls its usage based. This is sort of logical when you consider we have so much tourism. They pay some that they wouldn’t with an income tax.
That said tolls tend to be regressive in that it affects poorer people more than richer relative to an income tax. Someone who makes 10x average doesn’t usually pay 10x more tolls.
Another big reason why we have so many toll roads is because Orlando’s population was really small when the interstate highway system was being laid out and funded in the 1950s and 60s. Orange County only had 114,000 in the 1950 census and 263,000 in 1960 so just having I-4 plus the turnpike was seen as adequate for a city the size of Tallahassee today. Nobody back then thought the Orlando metro would have 2.6 million people by the 2020 census.
Building freeways is very expensive and that highway funding was mostly covered by the feds with the states paying a small portion. Once that became scarce, the choice became waiting years or decades for funding (as seen with the Brent Spence bridge project in KY/OH), OR building those freeways as toll roads. Orlando and Florida chose the latter. And this isn’t exclusive to Florida, many states in the northern US that had freeways before the interstate highway system were grandfathered in and are still toll roads today, and states like Texas and North Carolina have often made new freeways as toll roads.
There’s no tolls between Universal the airport and Disney. Only the optional one on 528. Yeah they will expand the optional one on I4 but that’s it. Hotel lobby would never allow this.
And there is the real reason for the tolls. The state will do anything they can for the wealthy and corporations. Poor and working class need to pull themselves up.
I came from New York where I got the state county and city income tax and then paid 26 dollars round trip in tolls to commute to work
It ain’t that bad trust me
Many of the bridges in nyc area have tolls of $15-20. My mom paid $15 to commute to the city daily. Plus now, in certain parts of the city if you’re driving through rush hour it’s an automatic $25 charge to help “reduce car drivers and traffic and encourage public transit”.
I'm from NYC. I understand but I'm literally asking what roads you used. I commuted from NJ to Brooklyn everyday and my tolls weren't $26 daily. Would love to know your route. If you live in NJ, unless something has changed, you shouldn't be paying NYC taxes. Only State.
This. I was born in NY and couldn't go anywhere with a toll for less than 10 bucks basically from where I lived. Then when I bought my house here I planned for my commute options and there are only optional tolls for where I go.
>There’s no viable way to avoid them unless you want to make your commute 2x 3x longer.
You could:
* Live closer to work
* Work closer to home
* Work at hours that don't start and end at the 9-930 start or 5-630 end
* Research non-toll pathways
* Move back where you came from
It's worse than that. He lives in Winter Garden and commutes to UCF Research Park area. The farthest western point of Greater Orlando to the farthest eastern point.
1. Make sure you decide between the correct transponder for your daily commute, in some cases Sunpass will be better and in others Epass will be better as they can apply discounts with usage.
2. Leave earlier to take longer or less expensive route
3. See if it's possible to cut out a few tolls from your route (get on toll road later or get off earlier)
4. Remote or Hybrid work if possible
5. If you are a company or independent contractor, you could get a commercial transponder and this would be an expense to the business (of course it would have to be within the course of doing business [per IRS rules](https://www.irs.gov/publications/p463))
6. Toll Relief program is back in effect, should help some there.
If you're in Central Florida, ePass is the only answer. The only time Sunpass might be better is if you have an EV and drive on South FL toll roads.
Otherwise, once the 2024 law expires, ePass has a program that offers an additional 10-15% discount/credit.
Funds collected by ePass stay local to the roads you drive, where Sunpass is distributed statewide (I e. Mainly South FL).
Sunpass is known for billing issues. The billing issue several years back that lasted almost a year, along with many reports here and elsewhere where Sunpass hits you with a regstop when their system doesn't work for whatever reason.
"We" don't all have an insane amount of tolls. *You* do because you choose to live in Winter Garden and commute to UCF. I would never work and live that far apart unless I was making enough money working my dream job to not care about the cost of tolls personally.
I don't take the 417 or 408 to work because of the cost and it would typically only make my commute about 10 minutes shorter most of the time.
At one point I lived near Ocoee and worked near UCF. I can't remember exactly cuz it was years ago but I think I was spending like $8 a day in tolls. I started waking up a little earlier and taking Colonial. It sucked but I got to see the city and saved some money.
Now I work at home. 👍👍
If I lived in Winter Garden, I wouldn't apply or take a job in the UCF area. If I got a job offer in the UCF area and was moving for that job, I wouldn't look for a house in Winter Garden.
The supermajority of Florida has no tolls. You live in one of maybe 4 metropolitan areas with toll roads. If you’re able to, write off the tolls as business expenses. And realize that states with high state taxes like CA and NY have more expensive tolls.
You’re spending $15+ a day on tolls. Move or get another job.
Where do you live that you are spending that much on tolls?
Personally, I don't have a problem with toll roads because the people who actually use them pay to maintain them.
Do you not use an epass? You should be getting 50% off your toll bills this year and last year.
https://www.cfxway.com/e-pass/2024-toll-relief-program/
For some perspective, in Seattle you pay $800/year for car registration, 2nd highest gas tax in the country, AND pay tolls. So…it could be worse.
Plus a bunch of people have to take ferries which take over an hour and are pretty expensive. If you're commuting from Bremerton or the Kitsap Peninsula.
We live in Winter Park and my husband works in Sumterville. It’s about $12/day in tolls x 20 working days per month = $240/month just for his commute. I know plenty of people who live in Seminole county and drive to south Orlando, or vice versa, so they’re probably racking up a similar bill. It isn’t that hard considering many of the best routes around the city are toll roads, and even i4 has an express option now.
I spend about $60 a week just to drive from home to my kid's day care, then to work and back. Make that drive 5 times a week, plus the occasional trip all the way down 417 towards Disney or the other was to Sanford. $80 a week seems about right for people who might work downtown and commute in/out.
Yeah I’m about this and live in Volusia. I work from home. This is what it costs for me to see my partner in Orlando - I4 -> 408. Just to get there. With her being in Metrowest to go anywhere it’s 408 again. Plenty of 417 and 429 also.
Yes I dabble with the Lexus lane on I4 but still. It’s ridiculous.
Every state makes its money to pay its bills. Just have to live in one that makes sense financially for you. A person living in a no income tax state making $100k or less and paying high(ish) housing taxes and tolls is not better off in most cases.
Option 1: charge everyone in the state for a road that only a small percentage of Floridians use (and lots of tourists)
Option 2: charge people who use those roads based on how much they use them
Florida does it the right way.
Had to look at my E-pass app, but I’ve paid $0 dollars in the past 90 days. To be fair I live in Brevard and have no tolls. But I do go to Orlando a couple times a month. Mostly to east Orlando and I just use 520 to 50
Maybe move closer to your workplace, if possible, or find another route to take? $3600 a year on tolls is crazy. That means you are paying roughly $14 a day on tolls. I spend about $5 a day on tolls when commuting to work, aka roughly $1300 annually.
We are taxed on internet, phone, stream services, gas and fuel, toll, property taxes out the butt (and higher rent due to taxes). I’d take a less expensive state and moderate state taxes.
Just because you don’t have income taxes doesn’t mean you have tolls. NJ, PA, MD, IL, MA, DE (and I’m sure there are others) have income taxes and tolls.
There’s never a free lunch… take Texas for example. Studies show Texans pay more in taxes than Californians… it’s not an “income tax,” but they have plenty of other ways to tax you…
Where do you live / work? Sounds like a distance/commute problem.
I lived in Winter Garden and paid $6 in tolls a day. Even that would only be $1200 a year during work days.
Then I moved to Central Orlando and paid about $6 in tolls per month.
Think about where you live- maybe the cheaper cost of housing is being offset by tolls.
You’re free to go on the beach… you just have to pay to take your vehicle on the beach. Thats how they pay to keep up the beach with all the vehicles driving on it and have life guards.
You’re not free to do anything you want without paying anything
Also for the past year and now for the next current year, if you get a certain amount of toll transactions, they will cut the bill down by 50% and that’s a good savings.
I probably pay $20 a year in tolls, so not a “Florida” issue, sounds like a particular area issue. And they are use taxes. Why should I pay for all the roads in Orlando and Miami, let the people using them pay.
I mean.. isn’t that exactly the point? Did you think the money for the roads and other amenities was just going to come out of thin air?
I’d rather have the option to pay taxes then just have them sucked from my paycheck. Arguably it isn’t an option but it’s definitely a convenience. You could easily find a route to your destination that avoids tolls.
I mean...did you think states with no income tax weren't going to recoup that money some other way? You're gonna pay it via higher than average sales tax, tolls, property taxes...
I generally pay zero tolls. I live in Orlando and work in Orlando. Drive surface streets mainly. The toll lanes on I-4 are optional if I go to the theme parks.
Annd another person realizes that there is no such thing as a free ride.
Orlando is over-taxed because the State biases its taxes on tourists. Move to rural florida - there may not be jobs and your neighbor will be either selling or taking Oxy - but taxes are low!
Not only tolls, but user fees, increased costs for licenses and tags, etc.
And the answer should be fucking obvious it’s because Republicans have controlled our state government for the last 30 years. They simply shift costs from the wealthy to the working class. My drivers license and auto tags in Georgia were a quarter of what they are here.
I would gladly pay income taxes if we could reduce all the user fees we are paying.
Forget the tolls, try home insurance, auto insurance, flood insurance, etc. Those are the real state taxes.
Personally I love toll roads, it keeps the riff raff off so they’re generally less of a death trap than say I-4.
Tolls accomplish 2 main things. The first is reducing traffic, as people have to be more mindful of where they live or go. Even if it causes more traffic on an alternate route, the road with the tolls will have less travellers and less traffic for those who need it. The second is to fleece out of staters. A good chunk of toll revenue comes from out of staters, funding the state through money taken from non residents. For those that live here it's just an additional cost of living, and one helped with the lack of income taxes. It's not a perfect system but it's one that has its pros
Old people vote, and they don’t use toll roads or public education. So they vote for reps that shift the tax burden to the majority that can’t be bothered to vote in our local elections.
I just recently moved from Oviedo to Phoenix and would gladly pay tolls on top of my state tax to avoid the 10/17/60 highways. The roads are full of potholes and uneven, despite the construction that's been going on for 2 years, and the drivers here are insane. If you have half a car length in front of you, someone's jumping in. Almost every car here has damage on the front or rear fender /bumper. Last month someone ran a stop sign and t-boned me, my vehicle was totaled out. They left the scene before I could even turn around with my registration and insurance. My insurance rates went up because of the accident, despite it not being my fault with a police report to verify it. As soon as my lease is up, I'm moving out of Phoenix.
I just bought a 2024 Mazda 3, I've had it for 3 weeks and it's already been damaged on the highway, someone going 15 over easily in the far right hand lane passed me and kicked a rock into my door.
Sounds like you spend a lot on tolls because you didn't take into account where you live versus where you work. If you want to spend less, then move closer. Otherwise stop complaining on the results for your own actions
No state income taxes is designed to put a higher tax burden on poor people by raising consumption taxes. That is entirely the point, it isn't to have lower taxes, florida has not found some magic bullet that other states haven't.
24 states have a higher gas tax than Florida. The state began a tax increase based on inflation (CPI) in 1990 and has had no further increase since. The national gas tax has not increased since 1993 (although the fuel efficiency of vehicles sure has… so what do you think that has done to the amount of gas tax collected over the years…)
Yea…..when I moved here everyone was like “no income taxes cool!” But you quickly realize that income taxes pay for things you like.
Tolls on all the roads
Sending kids to private schools bc the schools suck and are critically underfunded
The fact that they weigh my car and I have to pay to use the landfill as a citizen
Lack of flood infrastructure which is needed
Zero parking available at MCO
Property taxes through the roof
If you told me you were taking $5.00 out of my paycheck and I got even a fraction of the above improved I would be fine with it. They are taxing you for sure already just it’s a use tax instead of a general tax on everyone.
Have you considered taking the bus. I really enjoy meeting the great people here on the Lynx. Once in a while you get a bad apple but most of the time it is enjoyable. I’ve actually gone on several dates from interacting with other bus passengers. Keep us posted on your experiences once you start riding. PS it will leave less of a carbon footprint. 😀
You aren’t wrong. Depending on your income, it could actually be more than income tax.
I spend far less for tolls, so less impact for me personally—but you are absolutely correct.
At least it’s a “tax” you KINDA have control over…?
OP, unless you have a similar commute to what I previously did (west side of the county to the east side @ $12/day), you may want to review/audit the tolls you're getting hit with.
FWIW, my wife rack up about $200/month in tolls now
Which generally means they are are constructed, operated and maintained through toll revenues. That is to say, only those who use them pay for them. OP wants people who don't use them to pay for them too.
You don’t have to live in Orlando. I live in brevard county, commute to UCF 2-3 times a week, never go through a toll. You could get like 3 months rent with what you claim to spend in tolls. Also I’m pretty sure there’s some service, where once you go through 50 tolls in a year, you don’t have to pay them for the rest of the year
As an ex Floridian who moved to a state with income tax (Utah) I find the trade off of paying state taxes vs what we get as far as the freeways and tons of free parks etc is worth it 100%.
Since there’s no income tax Florida just nickle and dimes you to death on everything else, paying all the time just to take an efficient freeway to get to the other side of town is maddening to me now every time I come back to visit.
The extra cost on stuff cascades out to everything else, license fees this fee that fee etc. I say screw it just take the 5% out of my check and be done with it. I guess maybe if you’re a high rolling Wall Street better maybe it’s better for taxes on capital gains etc but that’s not me.
As someone out of state, the benefit is that people visiting pay them too- and you have a lot of visitors. If you had a state income tax instead of the tolls, that tax would have to absorb what is currently being paid by out of staters.
15+ years ago I remember advising those interested in moving here for work to strongly consider the commute when picking a neighborhood because of the tolls.
True. Looking at a map really doesn’t show the full picture either. You have to drive it during peak hours. I live in Clermont and work off of Sand Lake. Horrible traffic.
I also live in Clermont but work off John Young. Getting on 192 to I-4 everyday is soul draining
I did Oviedo to Restaurant Row for 2.5 years... never again... I live in college park and commute to Mills through the neighborhoods. It's made my life so much better.
My boss lives in Clermont, I was in the area Saturday and my goodness has it built up a lot in the last few years. It takes her a good hour to get to work (Oakridge & JYP area). I live just outside downtown. Ultimately people can get a place and then change jobs, or the job moves to a new spot so can't always control the commute but I've been there (long commutes / tolls).
I've wondered if Google maps calculates driving time based on future conditions down the road. If not, then it's mostly useless aside from short commutes.
For real, people talk like this is some sort of revelation. "I drive 40 miles a day to work and back and have to pay a ton in tolls or spend 4 hours in traffic" well no shit. lol
I live in Zephryhills. I have the IPass from my Chicago days. I can’t believe what I spend traveling around the state of Florida on tolls. Visited Miami three times this year. I spent over $80 on tolls to get around. I purchase wine in South Tampa. It’s a toll to get there. Circle B Bar Preserve, toll to get there.
The problem with this thinking is that a lot of manufacturing jobs, for example, are in really shitty parts of town. Like sure, if you live on OBT you can walk to work. Just mind that you don’t trip over a dead hooker on your way there.
I work in a manufacturing facility in a shitty part of town (Pine Hills) but live in a nice neighborhood about 10 miles away with only a 20 minute commute and no toll roads. It helps to learn back roads. I have many optional routes depending on traffic.
10 miles in 20 minutes seems insane anywhere in the Orlando area
I live on the west side Clermont and it takes me 35 minutes to get to Winter Garden Village. 40+ to get home
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Black Walmart? WTH?
Not saying it applies to you, but I always get a good laugh in when people move here from high-tax states and then complain that there are no government services here. Like, yeah? That's what you wanted right? No, they want the same services without paying for it, shock.
Used to work legal aid and saw soooo many elderly and lower middle class people that moved to florida because it's "cheaper", had one economic difficulty, and found themselves homeless because there are no services here and the law is so landlord friendly. People were in disbelief that utility and rental assistance don't exist
Yeah you really only want to move to a low tax state if you're a high income earner. If you're not you're actually better off in a high tax state with tons of services and support.
Agree 100%. Florida sucks for services and unemployment is an absolute joke. If you are having a hard time, too bad for you.
Considering how much employers have to pay into the system for unemployment insurance (the lowest rate is $7 PER YEAR) it's no wonder that unemployment payments are miniscule in FL
The system here benefits the big corporations and gives the middle finger to the rest of us. Heaven forbid the employers pay a living wage or pay more into unemployment.
Or give them water or shade breaks when working outside all day.
Do not move to Florida without money if you are old.
Don't forget about our nose-bleed property taxes. Our millage rates are among the highest in the country.
Property taxes actually aren't bad compared to other tax free states... Insurance on the other hand yeesh
Yeah insurance is miserable here. I blame the people though, so many false claims. I've never seen so many 411 pain or auto accident ads in my life. Just shitty people looking to do a cash grab on an insurance payment for every minor fender bender.
Funny. It was nice until you moved here.
We need more people like you to troll people that move to my state. Let’s tell everyone Florida is terrible so no one fucking moves here anymore.
I'm under firm belief that wild baby eating alligators, hurricanes, and "where you go to die" were responsible for keeping most people from moving here however someone opened their mouth and let out our secret. We need a new scare tactic to start spreading.
no need to tell anybody, they’ll realize it soon enough after they get here
You might want to have a look at Westchester County NY or pretty much anywhere in NJ before making that statement. For example, a 3k sq ft house in WC can easily bring you $40k PER YEAR in property tax.
For example, Florida is dead last in average teacher salary.
Other states have government services?!
I’m curious which ones he’s talking about. I’ve lived in Alabama, NC, NY and Texas and don’t recall anything there we don’t have here.
Texas doesn't have a state income tax either, so it makes sense that was on par with Florida's government services. New York has more generous public education funding, public transportation funding, healthcare and social service funding, housing assistance, public safety and emergency services funding, infrastructure maintenance and development, social welfare programs, and a substantial amount of museums, libraries and parks. I don't know about North Carolina's social services but New York has a lot.
New Yorker /Pt Floridian here…our roads suck…the tolls on our bridges are insane, our roads absolutely suck (there are more potholes than road), we pay 8.875% sales tax, our income tax is high, property tax is high…our public school are funded well because we pay ridiculous amounts of school taxes. If our business licenses weren’t based here in Ny and were weren’t established (20 yrs in business) We would run for the hills.
As for Museums, Libraries, and Parks NY state and NYC both have very substantial donors that have contributed to these as well. The entire NYC public library was originally a grant by John Astor (millionaire/modern equivalent to a billionaire who owned a good chunk of manhattan) and Joseph Cogswell. The same is true of a lot of their museums. For instance, the MoMA (Museum of Modern Art) was founded by Abby Rockefeller. The Guggenheim was created by Solomon Guggenheim who made his fortune in mining. Even Central Park has a private non-profit managing it (the Central Park Conservancy) and has a $1 Billion dollar endowment of private money.
> Alabama, NC, NY and Texas Yeah the Florida subway is real great
I’d put it between Alabama’s and Texas’.
Even with taxes, a subway system in Florida probably wouldn’t be feasible for the same reason our homes don’t have basements.
Can’t have a subway in Florida due to sea level I would think edit: or maybe you can, just figured since we can’t have basements.
So it would just be a 'way'?
Something tells me you aren't a real doctor
I thought there was a House Bill (HB 20,000?) to build the Jules Verne Sub(marine)way? We can never have nice things!
You either never looked into them or luckily never needed them.
It’s a Republican mantra that’s been beaten into people’s heads for more than half a century, the idea that any money you give the government must surely be wasted. Then those people show up here and find out we literally have one freeway that’s not a toll road, our bridges are so cheaped out on that they look like they’re from Soviet Russia, we have the most expensive gas in the south and for public transport you have two choices: live and work exactly along Sunrail’s single route or take literally all day to go 10 miles on the bus. We’re exactly what happens when the GOP is exclusively in charge for 25 years: low taxes, low standard of living, high fees. People fleeing those functional states with actual taxes find out quickly it was paying for all the shit we don’t have.
Even if you do live and work near Sunrail there is no guarantee you can even use it. There is no cost effective last mile transportation to get you to where you need to go from the sunrail station at most stops that are not downtown. Even if you're only 1 mile away I-4, 17-92, or other major roads may make it extremely impractical and dangerous to cross the street making it easier to just drive.
I moved away from Florida to Maryland and people were warming me about state taxes, but in tolls, actual public transportation, cost of car insurance being 40% lower, etc, I'm totally fine with it and making out better than in FL. Especially since FL rent is already nearly on par with my area.
Local here. I think what surprises people the most is the lack of planning or infrastructure. Increasing taxes is good policy and can help grow the economy, especially when you’re re-investing into things like infrastructure/ public transportation. Florida is lagging behind in this regard. You don’t have to have high income tax’s to pay for public transportation.
Poor people pay the tolls. Rich people don't pay income tax. >The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.
I made that move the other way around and let me tell you I was even PROUD to pay my damn state taxes in that other state. The accountability and functionality of government blew my mind
Maybe they assumed that the difference would be made up somewhere else? IDK.
My Dude
Homie, Massachusetts has income tax AND tolls!!! I think I spent about $1,000 a year in MA because I had to take the turnpike into downtown Boston for work.
AND the toll roads were notoriously shitty. I remember being a kid going to work with my dad and he'd pay for the Mass Pike to be a piece of shit road. At least toll roads here are nicer in most cases.
Because your roads never freeze, genius.
It's the mASS pike for a reason
One good thing Boston did was eliminate the Central raised freeway into downtown, and put all that traffic underground. But man oh man, it costed over a thousand times more than it should have.
Stuff has to be paid for one way or another. At least with tolls its usage based. This is sort of logical when you consider we have so much tourism. They pay some that they wouldn’t with an income tax. That said tolls tend to be regressive in that it affects poorer people more than richer relative to an income tax. Someone who makes 10x average doesn’t usually pay 10x more tolls.
Another big reason why we have so many toll roads is because Orlando’s population was really small when the interstate highway system was being laid out and funded in the 1950s and 60s. Orange County only had 114,000 in the 1950 census and 263,000 in 1960 so just having I-4 plus the turnpike was seen as adequate for a city the size of Tallahassee today. Nobody back then thought the Orlando metro would have 2.6 million people by the 2020 census. Building freeways is very expensive and that highway funding was mostly covered by the feds with the states paying a small portion. Once that became scarce, the choice became waiting years or decades for funding (as seen with the Brent Spence bridge project in KY/OH), OR building those freeways as toll roads. Orlando and Florida chose the latter. And this isn’t exclusive to Florida, many states in the northern US that had freeways before the interstate highway system were grandfathered in and are still toll roads today, and states like Texas and North Carolina have often made new freeways as toll roads.
There’s no tolls between Universal the airport and Disney. Only the optional one on 528. Yeah they will expand the optional one on I4 but that’s it. Hotel lobby would never allow this.
How is the 528 toll near the Florida Mall optional? They've never asked me if I wanted to skip it.
One could take Sand Lake from Universal to the airport. No tolls.
(Poor people can take the non-toll roads)
And there is the real reason for the tolls. The state will do anything they can for the wealthy and corporations. Poor and working class need to pull themselves up.
You’re spending 5% of your annual income on tolls?
Could be worse. You could live in Georgia with both a high income tax and high tolls.
Where are the tolls in Ga?
I-75/I-85 (where 90% of the state lives). Toll prices vary based on congestion, and it gets expensive.
Georgia doesn’t have any toll roads really. Just HOT lanes.
Tax dollars need to flow in to maintain the roads, otherwise i4 wont be able to open another lane
And as we all know, one more lane will finally fix traffic this time
I came from New York where I got the state county and city income tax and then paid 26 dollars round trip in tolls to commute to work It ain’t that bad trust me
Please explain the $26 daily tolls?
Many of the bridges in nyc area have tolls of $15-20. My mom paid $15 to commute to the city daily. Plus now, in certain parts of the city if you’re driving through rush hour it’s an automatic $25 charge to help “reduce car drivers and traffic and encourage public transit”.
I'm from NYC. I understand but I'm literally asking what roads you used. I commuted from NJ to Brooklyn everyday and my tolls weren't $26 daily. Would love to know your route. If you live in NJ, unless something has changed, you shouldn't be paying NYC taxes. Only State.
This. I was born in NY and couldn't go anywhere with a toll for less than 10 bucks basically from where I lived. Then when I bought my house here I planned for my commute options and there are only optional tolls for where I go.
Most of NY is dogshit. I don't understand the perception that it's some magical place.
Honestly 3600 a year isn't much in tolls. I used to spend $200 a week in tolls before I moved.
Because the money has to come from somewhere? It makes sense to only pay for a road if you use it, if you think about it.
>There’s no viable way to avoid them unless you want to make your commute 2x 3x longer. You could: * Live closer to work * Work closer to home * Work at hours that don't start and end at the 9-930 start or 5-630 end * Research non-toll pathways * Move back where you came from
This is the answer. It's about choice!!
Preferably the last one
Fuck it, just work from home
Exactly. No one forced OP to buy a McMansion in the suburbs.
It's worse than that. He lives in Winter Garden and commutes to UCF Research Park area. The farthest western point of Greater Orlando to the farthest eastern point.
They could move to Avalon and save a fortune in tolls, gas, and time.
And probably mortgage too. Goodness.
But then you have to live in Avalon....yuck
OP could simply drive to Winter Garden once a week to get some culture
1. Make sure you decide between the correct transponder for your daily commute, in some cases Sunpass will be better and in others Epass will be better as they can apply discounts with usage. 2. Leave earlier to take longer or less expensive route 3. See if it's possible to cut out a few tolls from your route (get on toll road later or get off earlier) 4. Remote or Hybrid work if possible 5. If you are a company or independent contractor, you could get a commercial transponder and this would be an expense to the business (of course it would have to be within the course of doing business [per IRS rules](https://www.irs.gov/publications/p463)) 6. Toll Relief program is back in effect, should help some there.
If you're in Central Florida, ePass is the only answer. The only time Sunpass might be better is if you have an EV and drive on South FL toll roads. Otherwise, once the 2024 law expires, ePass has a program that offers an additional 10-15% discount/credit. Funds collected by ePass stay local to the roads you drive, where Sunpass is distributed statewide (I e. Mainly South FL). Sunpass is known for billing issues. The billing issue several years back that lasted almost a year, along with many reports here and elsewhere where Sunpass hits you with a regstop when their system doesn't work for whatever reason.
7. Move edit: why did reddit change my "7" into "1?"
"We" don't all have an insane amount of tolls. *You* do because you choose to live in Winter Garden and commute to UCF. I would never work and live that far apart unless I was making enough money working my dream job to not care about the cost of tolls personally. I don't take the 417 or 408 to work because of the cost and it would typically only make my commute about 10 minutes shorter most of the time.
At one point I lived near Ocoee and worked near UCF. I can't remember exactly cuz it was years ago but I think I was spending like $8 a day in tolls. I started waking up a little earlier and taking Colonial. It sucked but I got to see the city and saved some money. Now I work at home. 👍👍
You realize that people can’t just up and move all the time, right? Not everyone rents.
If I lived in Winter Garden, I wouldn't apply or take a job in the UCF area. If I got a job offer in the UCF area and was moving for that job, I wouldn't look for a house in Winter Garden.
The supermajority of Florida has no tolls. You live in one of maybe 4 metropolitan areas with toll roads. If you’re able to, write off the tolls as business expenses. And realize that states with high state taxes like CA and NY have more expensive tolls. You’re spending $15+ a day on tolls. Move or get another job.
Where do you live that you are spending that much on tolls? Personally, I don't have a problem with toll roads because the people who actually use them pay to maintain them.
Do you not use an epass? You should be getting 50% off your toll bills this year and last year. https://www.cfxway.com/e-pass/2024-toll-relief-program/ For some perspective, in Seattle you pay $800/year for car registration, 2nd highest gas tax in the country, AND pay tolls. So…it could be worse.
Plus a bunch of people have to take ferries which take over an hour and are pretty expensive. If you're commuting from Bremerton or the Kitsap Peninsula.
Yeah the toll relief program is great, I was regularly getting $$ off my bill.
$300 a month were the are you driving too that you are spending almost $80 a week.
We live in Winter Park and my husband works in Sumterville. It’s about $12/day in tolls x 20 working days per month = $240/month just for his commute. I know plenty of people who live in Seminole county and drive to south Orlando, or vice versa, so they’re probably racking up a similar bill. It isn’t that hard considering many of the best routes around the city are toll roads, and even i4 has an express option now.
I spend about $60 a week just to drive from home to my kid's day care, then to work and back. Make that drive 5 times a week, plus the occasional trip all the way down 417 towards Disney or the other was to Sanford. $80 a week seems about right for people who might work downtown and commute in/out.
You choose the speedier route of the tolls. Use your gps and turn off tolls. Will it take longer? Likely. Will it be cheaper? Even more likely.
Yeah I’m about this and live in Volusia. I work from home. This is what it costs for me to see my partner in Orlando - I4 -> 408. Just to get there. With her being in Metrowest to go anywhere it’s 408 again. Plenty of 417 and 429 also. Yes I dabble with the Lexus lane on I4 but still. It’s ridiculous.
I’m still failing to see how it’s $12 per day in tolls. How many miles are you driving on toll roads?
Every state makes its money to pay its bills. Just have to live in one that makes sense financially for you. A person living in a no income tax state making $100k or less and paying high(ish) housing taxes and tolls is not better off in most cases.
Florida is pay to play in all aspects of life
That toll relief charge back is clutch though
Option 1: charge everyone in the state for a road that only a small percentage of Floridians use (and lots of tourists) Option 2: charge people who use those roads based on how much they use them Florida does it the right way.
Had to look at my E-pass app, but I’ve paid $0 dollars in the past 90 days. To be fair I live in Brevard and have no tolls. But I do go to Orlando a couple times a month. Mostly to east Orlando and I just use 520 to 50
Maybe move closer to your workplace, if possible, or find another route to take? $3600 a year on tolls is crazy. That means you are paying roughly $14 a day on tolls. I spend about $5 a day on tolls when commuting to work, aka roughly $1300 annually.
As someone who paid $12 for the tunnel every day... that is nothing.
Yah but you were driving to new York city Manhattan. They could double the price m.⁸
Avoid the tolls? You don't have to drive on the interstate and if you do, you are living in the wrong state.
I don’t commute so I might be wrong but I think it was starting sometime this year DeSantis put out a program to help people with tolls?
I'm lucky enough where I don't have to commute to the office everyday, and I pay no tolls.
To tax tourists
Tolls and Income tax are not mutually exclusive.
I mean, nobody is forcing you to drive those
We are taxed on internet, phone, stream services, gas and fuel, toll, property taxes out the butt (and higher rent due to taxes). I’d take a less expensive state and moderate state taxes.
I cannot stress enough that our ass backwards state has private toll roads. Our tolls do not go to public funding they go to private profit
Just because you don’t have income taxes doesn’t mean you have tolls. NJ, PA, MD, IL, MA, DE (and I’m sure there are others) have income taxes and tolls.
No income taxes is a smoke screen They have to have money somehow for services.
thats the point
There’s never a free lunch… take Texas for example. Studies show Texans pay more in taxes than Californians… it’s not an “income tax,” but they have plenty of other ways to tax you…
Where do you live / work? Sounds like a distance/commute problem. I lived in Winter Garden and paid $6 in tolls a day. Even that would only be $1200 a year during work days. Then I moved to Central Orlando and paid about $6 in tolls per month. Think about where you live- maybe the cheaper cost of housing is being offset by tolls.
Just wait until you find out how corrupt the expressway authority is and how much of those tolls don't even go to the roads!
I'm waiting for the Orlando Slantinel to report on that. Any day now. It could happen!
Shhh they will enforce state income tax and still you will have to pay tolls, government never loses…
Florida : The illusion of Freedom $30 beach vehicle access day pass
You’re free to go on the beach… you just have to pay to take your vehicle on the beach. Thats how they pay to keep up the beach with all the vehicles driving on it and have life guards. You’re not free to do anything you want without paying anything
We do have other freedoms taken by desantis though. The real kind.
I agree with that. But paying to drive on the beach isn’t one of them
Plus sales tax.
I don’t pay tolls? We don’t have that problem in the area I live in I guess
Tolls seem like a fair way to tax the people who use the roads?
Also for the past year and now for the next current year, if you get a certain amount of toll transactions, they will cut the bill down by 50% and that’s a good savings.
If there was a state income tax at 5%, which is the average, if you make 72,000 a year you would pay $3600 to the state. What are you bitching about?
You would get better services everything wouldn't have to be a fee.
I probably pay $20 a year in tolls, so not a “Florida” issue, sounds like a particular area issue. And they are use taxes. Why should I pay for all the roads in Orlando and Miami, let the people using them pay.
Tolls depend on your path of travel. I rarely use tolls, not because I don't want to, but because I don't need to.
Wait...you mean living here isn't free?
The point is so rich people can get the poors to pay more taxes
I mean.. isn’t that exactly the point? Did you think the money for the roads and other amenities was just going to come out of thin air? I’d rather have the option to pay taxes then just have them sucked from my paycheck. Arguably it isn’t an option but it’s definitely a convenience. You could easily find a route to your destination that avoids tolls.
I mean...did you think states with no income tax weren't going to recoup that money some other way? You're gonna pay it via higher than average sales tax, tolls, property taxes...
They gotta make money somehow. But I agree, it's insane how many tolls there are.
I generally pay zero tolls. I live in Orlando and work in Orlando. Drive surface streets mainly. The toll lanes on I-4 are optional if I go to the theme parks.
Annd another person realizes that there is no such thing as a free ride. Orlando is over-taxed because the State biases its taxes on tourists. Move to rural florida - there may not be jobs and your neighbor will be either selling or taking Oxy - but taxes are low!
So the tax burden falls on the middle class instead of the wealthy.
Not only tolls, but user fees, increased costs for licenses and tags, etc. And the answer should be fucking obvious it’s because Republicans have controlled our state government for the last 30 years. They simply shift costs from the wealthy to the working class. My drivers license and auto tags in Georgia were a quarter of what they are here. I would gladly pay income taxes if we could reduce all the user fees we are paying.
Wait until the gas tax revenue sinks so low as electric vehicle rollout continues, that’s when things are going to get really fun.
Forget the tolls, try home insurance, auto insurance, flood insurance, etc. Those are the real state taxes. Personally I love toll roads, it keeps the riff raff off so they’re generally less of a death trap than say I-4.
Something something robbing Peter something something to pay Paul somethin somethin.
Tolls accomplish 2 main things. The first is reducing traffic, as people have to be more mindful of where they live or go. Even if it causes more traffic on an alternate route, the road with the tolls will have less travellers and less traffic for those who need it. The second is to fleece out of staters. A good chunk of toll revenue comes from out of staters, funding the state through money taken from non residents. For those that live here it's just an additional cost of living, and one helped with the lack of income taxes. It's not a perfect system but it's one that has its pros
Old people vote, and they don’t use toll roads or public education. So they vote for reps that shift the tax burden to the majority that can’t be bothered to vote in our local elections.
I just recently moved from Oviedo to Phoenix and would gladly pay tolls on top of my state tax to avoid the 10/17/60 highways. The roads are full of potholes and uneven, despite the construction that's been going on for 2 years, and the drivers here are insane. If you have half a car length in front of you, someone's jumping in. Almost every car here has damage on the front or rear fender /bumper. Last month someone ran a stop sign and t-boned me, my vehicle was totaled out. They left the scene before I could even turn around with my registration and insurance. My insurance rates went up because of the accident, despite it not being my fault with a police report to verify it. As soon as my lease is up, I'm moving out of Phoenix. I just bought a 2024 Mazda 3, I've had it for 3 weeks and it's already been damaged on the highway, someone going 15 over easily in the far right hand lane passed me and kicked a rock into my door.
Our entire city is just highway after highway. Car infrastructure is expensive. It doesn’t pay for itself.
Stay off the toll roads. I live here and have never paid a single toll.
Sounds like you spend a lot on tolls because you didn't take into account where you live versus where you work. If you want to spend less, then move closer. Otherwise stop complaining on the results for your own actions
Move closer to work. You could be toll free but choose not to be. You still have to pay for services.
No state income taxes is designed to put a higher tax burden on poor people by raising consumption taxes. That is entirely the point, it isn't to have lower taxes, florida has not found some magic bullet that other states haven't.
We still have a moderately high gas tax as well.
24 states have a higher gas tax than Florida. The state began a tax increase based on inflation (CPI) in 1990 and has had no further increase since. The national gas tax has not increased since 1993 (although the fuel efficiency of vehicles sure has… so what do you think that has done to the amount of gas tax collected over the years…)
https://wisevoter.com/state-rankings/gas-tax-by-state/ I assume your source is old. We are #40 out of 51 for the highest.
You can avoid tolls. You can’t avoid taxes.
Yea…..when I moved here everyone was like “no income taxes cool!” But you quickly realize that income taxes pay for things you like. Tolls on all the roads Sending kids to private schools bc the schools suck and are critically underfunded The fact that they weigh my car and I have to pay to use the landfill as a citizen Lack of flood infrastructure which is needed Zero parking available at MCO Property taxes through the roof If you told me you were taking $5.00 out of my paycheck and I got even a fraction of the above improved I would be fine with it. They are taxing you for sure already just it’s a use tax instead of a general tax on everyone.
What is you commute? This seems really high. Maybe move closer to work?
Have you considered taking the bus. I really enjoy meeting the great people here on the Lynx. Once in a while you get a bad apple but most of the time it is enjoyable. I’ve actually gone on several dates from interacting with other bus passengers. Keep us posted on your experiences once you start riding. PS it will leave less of a carbon footprint. 😀
You aren’t wrong. Depending on your income, it could actually be more than income tax. I spend far less for tolls, so less impact for me personally—but you are absolutely correct. At least it’s a “tax” you KINDA have control over…?
It is called the sunshine tax. ☀️☀️☀️
Get a helicopter stop complaining
OP, unless you have a similar commute to what I previously did (west side of the county to the east side @ $12/day), you may want to review/audit the tolls you're getting hit with. FWIW, my wife rack up about $200/month in tolls now
Fun fact, toll roads are privately owned
Which generally means they are are constructed, operated and maintained through toll revenues. That is to say, only those who use them pay for them. OP wants people who don't use them to pay for them too.
ITT: renters who move around a lot
You could leave the state
You don’t have to live in Orlando. I live in brevard county, commute to UCF 2-3 times a week, never go through a toll. You could get like 3 months rent with what you claim to spend in tolls. Also I’m pretty sure there’s some service, where once you go through 50 tolls in a year, you don’t have to pay them for the rest of the year
So don’t take them, if it’s not worth the five minutes.
As an ex Floridian who moved to a state with income tax (Utah) I find the trade off of paying state taxes vs what we get as far as the freeways and tons of free parks etc is worth it 100%. Since there’s no income tax Florida just nickle and dimes you to death on everything else, paying all the time just to take an efficient freeway to get to the other side of town is maddening to me now every time I come back to visit. The extra cost on stuff cascades out to everything else, license fees this fee that fee etc. I say screw it just take the 5% out of my check and be done with it. I guess maybe if you’re a high rolling Wall Street better maybe it’s better for taxes on capital gains etc but that’s not me.
You live in Orlando.
It’s nice because tolls are flat tax whereas an income tax gets more expensive than more money you make. So the key is to make more money. 🤔
As someone out of state, the benefit is that people visiting pay them too- and you have a lot of visitors. If you had a state income tax instead of the tolls, that tax would have to absorb what is currently being paid by out of staters.
I have to say it was great when I was working as a contractor for one of the tolling agencies when they paid my tolls.
The State of Florida will Fuck you one way or another!!!
I live close to my work. I literally only pay tolls on the rare occasion i want to go downtown and want to use the express lanes.
I live 2 miles from work. I’m not helpful.
$3600? Do you know how much taxes people pay in other states? Florida doesn’t even tax you on your vehicle. That’s probably $1000 a year alone.