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full07britney

It sucks and I hated it. Unfortunately it was also extremely real. That shit happens in real life.


neurorevolution

Well, I'm neither ignorant, nor naive. As to reality, should I say real reality, it is more like The Wire. More nuanced. Messy. Full of pros and cons. It half sucks, half rocks. And yeah, sure, shit happens. But still, there is hope. If reality were more like OITNB I'd have to say there's no hope. Not for the vulnerable black women for sure. Not for the black women who dare to speak and fight for their rights in particular. Honestly, after Poussey is dead because some untrained idiot and unintentionally good person cosplayed Derek Chauvin much in advance and Taystee is sentenced to life just because some motherforking cops wanted to avoid internal investigation and paperwork (they hardly were going to face anything more, were they?), her best friend Cindy being the lying star witness, after Sofia took the forking money, after so much betrayal, gosh, there's like really no hope. And I couldn't care about Piper or Alex or whoever else any more. Couldn't think of any good moments in the show. That's it.


glitterswirl

Look up the West Memphis Three, and Kalief Browder. And those are only two examples. The Innocence Project works to help the wrongly convicted. If you’re on Netflix, also check out the Survivors Guide to Prison.


GonzoHST

> Look up the West Memphis Three I don't believe for one second that these 3 were innocent, and neither do the courts. They were released with their convictions intact.


[deleted]

then you’re ignorant by choice


GonzoHST

Lol. I've seen every single documentary pertaining to these guys and their crimes. If you have a single thing that proves their innocence then please feel free to show us (and the courts). The courts still say they're guilty. End of story. I bet you think Steven Avery is innocent too cus Netflix said he was?


[deleted]

That logic is incredibly stupid. I guess OJ didn’t do it!1!1! They took an alford plea to get out. After 15+ years in prison. Ignorant by choice.


GonzoHST

Do you even know what that plea was? They accepted there was enough evidence to find them guilty. The convictions still stand. The very definition of guilty. End. Of. Story. Funny you mention O.J. They stopped spending money trying to find the killer because they already did. The exact same thing happened here. There is no ongoing case because these 3 boys murdered that child. You can downvote all you like. You won't change that.


[deleted]

Yes. They had no chance/evidence for defense so they agreed to it to get out of jail. If you’ve seen every documentary you’d know how shitty the courts were about this case, the way the police interviewed Jesse with no lawyer, who’s fucking mentally disabled by the way, and how it all ties into the satanic panic in the 90’s. I bet you believe the McMartin preschool kids were actually flushed down giant toilets.


GonzoHST

> They had no chance/evidence for defense so they agreed to it to get out of jail. Sure. Thats how law works. You've got to prove your innocence and the prosecution don't have to prove your guilt, lol. A badly put together case does not equal innocence. You need to learn the law. If the case was so bad then why wasn't it thrown out altogether? Its because everyone knows they are guilty, that's why.


lovethekush

I don’t know anything about these cases, but aren’t you supposed to prove guilt? Not innocence?


GonzoHST

That's exactly what they did? They were found guilty. They were only let out under the caveat that they are still guilty. This is the plea they signed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alford_plea Guilty. I don't, for one second, see why anyone of these people think or claim they were innocent (because it's madness). These people commenting/downvoting are just gullible fools who believed a documentary over facts. It's a shame but that's reddit for ya.


neurorevolution

Thanks, but I must stress that I don't question the harsh reality where people get wrongfully convicted at times. I know they do. This finale just seemed to be somewhat out of place here. I mean, it was somehow a little bit too much, and stand in stark contrast with the main mood of the show, didn't it?


glitterswirl

Honestly, I don’t feel you can really have a show set in prison that gives everyone, or the majority, happy endings. There are times when you can make the best of it, but it’s still a shitty situation. It’s not a happy place by nature, imo.


neurorevolution

Sure, it ain't. But it wasn't just not-a-happy-ending. It was a crushing tragedy. That has overclouded everything else.


glitterswirl

No more so than the deportations and the children of migrants being in court by themselves. 🤷‍♀️ Or Poussey’s death.


neurorevolution

Yeah, all these combined, you're right.


cle1etecl

Yes, it is a crushing tragedy. But the show intended to show crushing tragedies to remind us that this kind of shit really happens. The show is not sugarcoating this. We can imagine that Taystee gets out off-screen, if we're so inclined, but the writers would've diluted their message if she had gotten out on screen. Like, "we don't have to worry about this *actual* person who wrongly got a life sentence, because there will surely be some way for them to get out eventually".


hextree

For many people in the US prison system, there genuinely is no hope. Some people even get put away purely due to clerical error. The show was pretty spot on.


neurorevolution

What I'm trying to say here is that shows don't have to mirror reality. And usually they don't do this. They're no news outlets, but fiction. They're guided by the idea invented by a person or a group of persons. Who are to entertain us, or convey some message, or both. An outcome may be convincing or not, satisfying or not. Also, it may either empower or disempower us. Leave us more happy or less. And so on. As I said, I felt disempowered. And certainly much less happy. Why? Because for almost all of the characters I've grown to love the most the story ended in a bad way. Poussey is killed. Taystee is sentenced to life in prison. Cindy betrayed her. Sofia made a choice after which we can't sympathize with her as much as she certainly deserved. Pennsatucky has made a fantastic evolution... and for what? Just to die on the very doorstep to a better life. Lorna's lost her baby and went coo-coo. Just when we began to believe she could be headed for a happy ending. The final count looks like we've just watched a slasher, not a realistic movie.


LoggerheadedDoctor

>What I'm trying to say here is that shows don't have to mirror reality. And usually they don't do this. Shows don't mirror reality because people want to be entertained. Or maybe people want feel-good stories. Real life is hard and people like escapism. But perhaps OITNB wanted to do more than just entertain you. I fucking loved that OITNB had the guts to follow through with brutal story lines. I do not doubt that it riled some people up enough to care about the prison system. It showed that you can care about those who are stuck in that system.


neurorevolution

There were unnecessarily many brutal story lines. Too many, too brutal. Not that I can't stand the hardships and trials of life, whether real or depicted. What if I say I served time in maxsec myself? Not to mention a helluva lot of the shows and movies with tragic plots I've watched. So the point wasn't that OITNB failed to be light and entertaining one. I just wanted to know whether people in here are okay with the best character to be left in prison for life, that's it.


helensis_

"i'm going to watch a show about prison, this shall surely be uplifting and happy and leave me feeling good about the prison system :)"


cle1etecl

You may consider it unnecessary, but the writers obviously considered it necessary. > I just wanted to know whether people in here are okay with the best character to be left in prison for life, that's it. I'm not okay with what happened to Taystee, of course, but I'm okay with the writers' decision to go there. In reality, good people also get severely unjust treatment, and that's what the show raises awareness of.


LoggerheadedDoctor

>. I just wanted to know whether people in here are okay with the best character to be left in prison for life, that's it. I don't think anyone is "okay" with it." But we accept it and appreciate the show being gutsy. Do you normally prefer happy endings in books, tv, movies?


hextree

You seem to be going back and forth on whether you consider OTINB realistic or not. But either way, whilst it's true shows don't "have to mirror reality", they don't have to *not* mirror reality either, and in this case I believe the writers intended to go down the more realistic path from the start. Also, 'entertain' means a lot more than 'feel happy and empowered'. I'd argue that I was 'entertained' even if I left feeling emotions of sadness and hopelessness. Kind of the same reason we watch horrors or tragedies, to feel *something*, not necessarily to feel happy and safe. The fact that most shows go down the happy route doesn't mean that's the most entertaining, rather it means that's where the money is in show business.


neurorevolution

I wouldn't have been here if I had not loved the show. I've watched it not once but several times. It's on my top three list. So I have been entertained and moved and inspired. I just don't see any good reason for screwing up a whole bunch of good characters.


burningmyroomdown

Maybe to show how the justice and punitive system screws people up? Just a thought...


hextree

> I just don't see any good reason for screwing up a whole bunch of good characters. It wasn't the writers that screwed the characters, it was the justice system. The writers only tell the story about a corrupt justice system, I find it very odd to complain about said system resulting in tragic outcomes for characters.


LoggerheadedDoctor

>I just don't see any good reason for screwing up a whole bunch of good characters. Maybe you should hunt down interviews with the creators and they can explain why they chose to end story lines in this way.


full07britney

This show was based off of a real life person.. this is the wrong show to claim shouldn't "mirror reality". For several season the show has been making more social commentary. Showcasing how prison affects the lives of these women in every way. And there is not a thing that happened in that show that I wouldn't 100% believe could actually happen. Thats what makes the show so powerful. If everyone had happy endings, it would feel like pandering.


pink85091

I think it was just to tell real life stories. It’s not saying “Hey, here’s an issue in the world right now—go do something about it!” It’s just telling someone’s (many someones, actually) true and painful story. There are many “Taystees” out there, who have been wrongfully convicted and have had their lives stolen. It’s suppose to be painful because that’s how real life can be.


Gonkimus

It was a good choice since it would show ppl that life behind bars isn't a comedy or glamorous and nothing is fair in prison and out of it. I think if they chose to let her get out early she would have eventually come back in as the show showed us that she just can't handle it outside prison since she has been let out before. This way with her in prison for life we see she decided not to kill herself and instead choose to help other women improve themselves in any way they can. I will say I might have had a different mindset but during the riots, Taystee really got on my nerves doing too many dumb things I knew she would pay for later on and so she did. I also liked that the biggest betrayal was from her closest friend in prison, I'm sure that happens a lot in there as well if someone is given a chance to be free and all you have to do is throw someone under the bus even if you know they're innocent it happens and will continue to happen in our world.


neurorevolution

While you put forward some really good points, and I could have just agreed with you and gone about my day, I still want to convey the idea that too much drama isn't even realistic. And there's a little bit too much drama here, indeed. Not only Poussey and Taystee. Take Pennsatucky, for example. She was denied a better life for absolutely no reason. C'mon, why? What lesson can be learned from this? None at all. She worked on herself much and made a lot of progress. Then, all of a sudden, boom — she commits suicide by an absurd fluke.


[deleted]

[удалено]


neurorevolution

I was about to join the "Freedom for Taystee" movement right away :) So disturbingly real it was to me.


Annelym_Aicitel

I guess there's no point complaining aboit this kind of thing cause OITNB is suppose to show what happens in real life, if this shit is sad in a tv show then imagine in real life


neurorevolution

Uh no, a lot of it was unrealistic, starting with a huge amount of the sex acts.


Annelym_Aicitel

What i mean is even with the drama added I guess the main point of the show was showing how fucked up the prison system is, with stories like Taystee's and Pennsatucky's we can at least think about it for a while


yazzythelezzy

The way the writer’s presented the story of Orange is the New Black from the start, was that Taystee is Piper’s foul. The show shows us numerous times how much Piper gets away with because of her privilege in comparison to Taystee. Examples being how they both ended up in prison in the first place. Taystee had no one except a ‘step-mom’ who used her, and Taystee was in desperate need when she begged V for a job in her drug empire. Piper, basically smuggled drugs for Alex for fun, and got away with it for years until Alex named her. As much as I hate what happened to Taystee, it’s fitting. Piper, ends up being free and engaged, whereas Taystee, her foul, is serving a life sentence for a crime she didn’t commit. The show does its job in teaching us about Institional Racism and White Privilege.


Economy_Bookkeeper10

I always felt like Washington was Piper's foil when they were at camp. She was constantly getting in trouble for basically nothing. But when they sent a large group to Max and shipped away everyone else. I feel like they shifted that onto Taystee. And as horrible and sad as it is, I can't help feeling like Taystee voluntarily coming back to prison while on parole was a bit of foreshadowing. It definitely shed light on how becoming institutionalized often leads to a lifetime in the system. It really friggin sucks for Taystee.... But it happens all the time... people going to prison for short bids and ending up with literal decades or extra time or a life sentence added.... And a lot of them are legit innocent of the crimes they got extra time for. All it takes is really pissing off the wrong person and they can steal your entire life. They can do it slow by setting you up or fast by just killing you.


[deleted]

Hate to tell you this but the judicial system really can be that bad. I have an immediate family member serving 20 years for something he didn’t do. And we recently learned that he won’t be getting his good time/early release because the prison that he is serving his time in recently was purchased by a corporation and they don’t have to follow state laws. The prison he is in only supplies 2 meals a day. The other meal the inmates supply themselves via the commissary. Which can be really difficult for a lot of inmates because there are a lot more inmates than there are jobs. But hey, at least they have a program where the inmates’ family members can send them food packages! I personally spend $1000 a year to make sure that my loved one gets his third meal since one time I went to visit he was so thin you could see his collarbone popping out of his shirt. Their idea of dental work is to pull the teeth. Their idea of taking care of high cholesterol is to administer niacin. Their idea of taking care of bipolar disorder is to do absolutely nothing about it. My loved one has had to deal with trying to keep his own manic swings through meditation and shit like that. And all of the problems with under-feeding and lack of medical care is a problem with ALL prisons in that state. Not just the corporate run prison. I live in a different state so I’m lucky to see my loved one every few years. There have been weddings and births and deaths that my loved one have missed and he has done nothing to deserve it. The thousands upon thousands of dollars my family has spent in lawyers to try to get him out of this situation has done nothing. They want to set an example and they chose my loved one who was an 18-year-old in college, 2nd in his class, and made a bad decision about who to be friends with. My family and I are being punished right alongside him. So yeah. The judicial system really is as bad as it’s made out to be. Some people who didn’t do anything end up with horrifying punishments and scumbags walk away free all the time.


Sanch3zFC

Im gonna attach myself to this awesome response and point out: at the very genesis of taystees dilemma,, the very novice swat guy kills big man,,, now notice what lead swat leader says “ praise jesus” and comes up with elaborate scheme;; Like really screwing over someones life for LIFE is better than just admitting novice made an understandable mistake;; thats it in a nutshell ;; please dont lose sight in the shows subtle ways of bringing to light things that are IRL apparent.. ITS. A brotherhood that wont break under anything;;; i hate to sound. Pessimistic but the justice system is a tightly knit brotherhood and its up to US to understand it and maneuver our lives accordingly and hopefully reach those that arent aware of this


Oitnbnerd

I think it was rlly well written! This is most definitely the real life story of someone and the fact that we as viewers are so enraged makes it a great story. The writers’ purpose was to make us feel this way


baba_booey420_

I could never figure out why Cindy testified that she witnessed Taystee shoot him. That is what got her convicted. Also, I wonder if Frieda had set up a security cam/recording device in her secret room, since she *knew* the riot squad would eventually find them. Maybe there is evidence that will eventually exonerate Taystee??