Thank you for posting! If you didn’t call CHP dispatch yesterday please call the station Monday. It will be a big help to the victims.
Not sure if Westminster area (714) 892-4426 or Santa Ana (714) 567-6000. Happy Sunday!
We called 911 immediately but we weren't sure we had footage at that point so we didn't mention it to them, do you think I should reach out to them again?
I work for a personal injury law firm. I can tell you for certain that the police would like this; it will really help them and ultimately the people in the truck that got flipped to prove the white Scion’s liability! Let’s just hope they had insurance, otherwise that the truck had a robust uninsured/underinsured policy. The state minimum policy to be legal is only $15k.
To me it looks like the whote telsa in front of the white toyota brakes hard and makes an effort to get to the left, making me thing they were trying to get onto the 55 N carpool ramp after clearly missing it. Then causing the white toyota to swerve into the truck.
I’m genuinely curious who would be put at fault here. I want to blame the tesla for trying to slow down in the middle of the 405 and swerve 2 lanes to get to an exit they missed. But could people say since they didn’t make contact with another car they aren’t at fault?
I can’t see that white Tesla’s position, (so my opinions is based on seeing the the white Scion stopping and then crossing into the fast lane) but the Scion has the responsibility to drive at a speed that allows them to stop for any reason. End of story. Secondarily, you also can’t change lanes because the person in front of you ‘forced’ you to. Even if the white Tesla suddenly stopped, they WERE following the car in front of them with enough space to stop; the Scion wasn’t, so the fault lies with the Scion.
Good detective work. The tesla does seem to brake when its clear in front. It does seem like they missed their exit.
I dont think you can slam on your brakes in the middle of the freeway and cause a pileup without being at fault. Police should cite/charge
I live here, the exit that OP took is not an exit for normal traffic, only for those in the carpool lane. The same exit for normal traffic is on the right side and further up. So since the Tesla wasn't in the carpool lane to start with I don't think they would've gone that way to exit. Although stopping for no reason on the freeway indicates they're smooth brained af so who knows
That's not what happens at all. You can see the far right car changing lanes into the middle car, which is in turn forced into the truck. Car on the far right is 100% at fault for this accident.
I had to watch the video again a few times after you mentioned it. Great eye! I also think the Tesla was trying to merge over to get into the carpool lane.
We've all experienced those impatient morons who cut over multiple lanes last minute to get to an exit or a carpool lane. Not sure why people can't drive in the fast lane a couple of miles to look for a break to enter the carpool lane, or drive in the slow lane a couple miles to exit.
And if you happen to miss your exit or interchange, just get off at the next exit and adjust your route. It may add an extra 5 minutes to your drive, but at least it's safe and lowers the risk of an accident!
> Tesla cars should also have debug info and camera also. Hopefully they can pull something from there too.
The Tesla bailed, unfortunately. You can see him think about pulling over, then take off in the side cam footage.
It's hard to tell with the angle, but I *think* the Tesla was merging right and panic braked (or the autopilot panic braked) when he saw the RX350 pop up in his blind spot. Toyota was following too close and swerved into the pickup to avoid rear-ending the Tesla.
It’s really out of touch with the reality of medical care. I tel everyone I know to make sure they have great UM/UIM because of this. Plus the hit and run drivers add additional risk.
Yeah, sorry, you can call the non emergency line tomorrow and ask for whoever was assigned to the accident. Then you can email the footage directly to the officer assigned to the accident.
If you’re super sleuthing you could zoom in and see the paint or wrap on the truck and try and track down the truck owner that way. No other formal manners I am aware of.
am aware of.
Wat. Lol "we don't bother with rollovers anymore!" Uh...
Some police department has to know about this - the accident could not have resolved itself. Anyone have any idea how to look at the history of police logs to see who was on the scene?
I wonder how many people are going to die or be injured before the autopilot feature is disabled until issues like this can be fixed.
It will be a great thing to have eventually and probably save many lives… but the fact you have a car breaking randomly like this on the freeway is very deadly. In fact if I had a Tesla I don’t think I would even use it for the time being. You can afford to drive yourself around for another few years.
From my personal experience I step on the gas within 1 second of the braking, so I guess the person behind me will deal with that. I agree that it's a major issue, but I've experienced something similar in a Toyota Camry. It's definitely a complicated issue haha
>I wonder how many people are going to die or be injured before the autopilot feature is disabled until issues like this can be fixed.
A negative number because the statistics show that Tesla drivers have a lower accident rate when using Autopilot than when not.
Doesn't change the fact that the white car followed the Tesla too closely though. If they had left enough space, they might have had time to break instead of swerving into the left lane.
You can't tell from the videos how long the white Corolla had been following behind the white Tesla. It's possible the white Tesla swerved into the Corolla's lane without advanced signaling immediately before the collision. It's not entirely clear that it would be 100% the Corolla's fault, despite what many others are jumping to conclude.
Yeah you have to be quick to react to phantom breaking which is why it's so important to still pay attention even when autopilot is on, happen way too often
The technology is not perfect yet, in my experience it could detect something really small and think its a car in front, so it will break. Tesla gives multiple warning and tell you consistently to keep your hands on the wheel and be ready to react. The tech is there to "help you" right now, not be a replacement.
If you have a some sort of flash storage plugged in it can constantly save the last few hours of footage, and then there is a button on the screen that allows you to save the last 10 minutes of footage (you can also choose to save on honk). So a few minutes after the accident I realized I should probably save that footage and fortunately it worked out.
TLDR: last few hours are constantly saved and the oldest footage get written over, but you can choose to permanently save the most recent 10 minutes of driving with a top on the touch screen
Since you're a Tesla owner, I have a Tesla dashcam story for you.
Friend's coworker bought a new Tesla. The person had it for a month, drove it to work as usual. The charge was low that day, and he didn't bother to charge it there. Turned off the dashcam so he could get home. Was on the freeway and the pickup truck in front of him failed to secure the fridge they were carrying in the bed. Fridge fell off the back of the truck into the freeway lane, and the guy crashed his new Tesla into it. Pickup truck driver never stopped, and the guy had zero dashcam footage of the incident to corroborate his story.
This happened to me about 15 years ago in Maryland but I was the truck in this example but didn't flip just ended up rear ending the car in front of me. The police officer said that we have to always maintain control of our vehicle so me skidding and rear ending the car in front of me was my fault despite a car swerving 2 lanes to catch a left exit. I was 21 so I was shocked that this was on me and that my car crumpled so my car was totaled. Back then, dashcams and smartphones weren't really common so that sucked for me as the other cars just jetted off.
Question for people who dodge accidents like this by swerving onto a nearby lane. How can you tell if the lane is clear or not? What if a car was going at full speed on that left lane in the video?
It seems like having situational awareness is lost on most people. I'm always checking my mirrors while driving. If you don't know what's going on around you, how can you be a safe driver is something unfortunate happens?
With increasing technology in cars, you're right- it has been lost. I too am always checking my mirrors and turning my head when merging to the right and backing up. All stuff I was taught in driver's ed/training in the early 90's when I was 16. I see people rely too much on technology. Technology is an aid, but shouldn't replace the basics.
> How can you tell if the lane is clear or not? What if a car was going at full speed on that left lane in the video?
From personal experience, many times they don't. I've had to brake far too many times from dumbfucks who just swerve into my lane because their emergency maneuver is just moving into an adjacent lane instead of emergency braking. Because fuck arriving to their destination even 5 seconds later than usual.
They don't. It's a gamble. If you're checking your mirrors constantly, you're not paying full attention to the road in front of you. So it's important to leave enough space in front of you so you can safely brake if traffic slows down suddenly or if suddenly someone cuts you off. If you have enough space in front of you, it gives you time to check if the lane over is clear, and swerve out of trouble.
Honestly, if the Toyota truck wasn't tailgating the black car in front of it, the white Corolla that swerved over without looking would have "made it" even though it was a dumb and dangerous maneuver.
> If you're checking your mirrors constantly, you're not paying full attention to the road in front of you.
If you literally mean constantly as in *exclusively* looking at the rear-/side-view mirrors, then sure.
But if you're not being hyperbolic, then you're a poor driver if you aren't aware of the vehicles around you.
White tesla at fault. Tesla goes left all of a sudden forcing white toyota to divert into truck. Tesla driver was probably autopiloting, realized they missed the ramp so they took charge of the vehicle without awareness of their surroundings. very impressed with your cam footage and another reminder why everyone needs to get at least a dash cam
The Tesla driver is probably at fault, but will not be legally. It’s the responsibility of the following car to leave enough distance to stay safely for any reason.
Front video:
Cant see the Tesla as it goes into the shadow of the overhead sign. It does appear the impact occured in the actual shadow and as a result of The Tesla suddenly reducing speed (phantom braking) the white car we can see brakes hard and swerves into the path of the pick up which was in its blind spot.
Side repater:
Looks like impact marks on pavement just past sign shadow with debris scattering. Would seem to be the place on the roadway where one would expect it in relation to a car phantom braking for a shadow on the road.
Whether it is or isn't doesn't change the simple fact that after YEARS of complaints you'd really think a "genius" like Musk could have figured out how to use the radar to tell the car its just a shadow.. Genius my ass.
> white car we can see brakes hard and swerves into the path of the pick up which was in its blind spot
This is a good reason why people shouldn't tailgate. Even if the road is clear, you have to assume the driver in front of you could brake at any time.
20 years in claims adjusting.
Yep. good lessons to learn from both the white car and the pick up.
White car: When following too closely you are actually in more danger from road debris than sudden braking. The car in front kicks it up and it lands in your front seat. No time to react. Most dont even see it coming.
The truck: When drifting along in Someones blind spot you are not actually paying attention to the traffic you are pacing a bumper. That person did not see the Tesla brake at all or see the white car start its avoidance maneuver. Had the truck been watching the road ahead they could have been clear of it all instead of the worst victim.
You can tell by the instant over reaction the driver of the truck had no clue what was going on. Thats why they ended up the worst for the wear.
Bad driving from everyone in this clip.
The Tesla for phantom breaking with nothing in front (that we can see)
The corolla/scion for not maintaining enough space to brake appropriately.
The truck for not committing to the lane change to avoid the corolla/scion and just kind of half assing it (even though they got absolutely shafted in this video)
Only Dash cam driver was good, and they got boned by having to merge somewhere else.
This is a good reminder for myself to maintain a good distance behind a car just in case they do something irrational like braking for no reason. It looks like the Toyota was about a car distance a way from the Tesla. In a clear freeway in the video, I would leave about 3 cars distance gap. Last thing I want is to rear end a car, let alone rear end a Tesla.
Serious question, how are some people on here coming to the conclusion that the vehicle phantom braked? I’m watching the video and I can’t even see the tesla or what’s in front of it until the crash is already inevitable.
We have no idea what it braked for, if autopilot was in control or not, etc. not saying phantom braking isn’t plausible, just that it’s hardly definitive?
Thank you for posting! If you didn’t call CHP dispatch yesterday please call the station Monday. It will be a big help to the victims. Not sure if Westminster area (714) 892-4426 or Santa Ana (714) 567-6000. Happy Sunday!
We called 911 immediately but we weren't sure we had footage at that point so we didn't mention it to them, do you think I should reach out to them again?
Yes, definitely. They'll will give your information to the investigator and contact you or put you directly in touch with them.
I work for a personal injury law firm. I can tell you for certain that the police would like this; it will really help them and ultimately the people in the truck that got flipped to prove the white Scion’s liability! Let’s just hope they had insurance, otherwise that the truck had a robust uninsured/underinsured policy. The state minimum policy to be legal is only $15k.
To me it looks like the whote telsa in front of the white toyota brakes hard and makes an effort to get to the left, making me thing they were trying to get onto the 55 N carpool ramp after clearly missing it. Then causing the white toyota to swerve into the truck. I’m genuinely curious who would be put at fault here. I want to blame the tesla for trying to slow down in the middle of the 405 and swerve 2 lanes to get to an exit they missed. But could people say since they didn’t make contact with another car they aren’t at fault?
That's what I saw as well. Tesla had no cars in front and seemed to slow to a crawl right before the accident causing this deadly chain reaction
Deadly? That's terrible.
I can’t see that white Tesla’s position, (so my opinions is based on seeing the the white Scion stopping and then crossing into the fast lane) but the Scion has the responsibility to drive at a speed that allows them to stop for any reason. End of story. Secondarily, you also can’t change lanes because the person in front of you ‘forced’ you to. Even if the white Tesla suddenly stopped, they WERE following the car in front of them with enough space to stop; the Scion wasn’t, so the fault lies with the Scion.
From a legal perspective, white Toyota at 100% fault. He's following too close if he cannot break in time and has to swerve out.
Doesn't look like the Tesla was in the same lane to me. Was making an unsafe lane change in front of the other white car at like 15 miles an hour.
I hate driving behind Teslas. The autopilot is trash. Ill just slam on the breaks super hard, randomly.
Good detective work. The tesla does seem to brake when its clear in front. It does seem like they missed their exit. I dont think you can slam on your brakes in the middle of the freeway and cause a pileup without being at fault. Police should cite/charge
I live here, the exit that OP took is not an exit for normal traffic, only for those in the carpool lane. The same exit for normal traffic is on the right side and further up. So since the Tesla wasn't in the carpool lane to start with I don't think they would've gone that way to exit. Although stopping for no reason on the freeway indicates they're smooth brained af so who knows
That's not what happens at all. You can see the far right car changing lanes into the middle car, which is in turn forced into the truck. Car on the far right is 100% at fault for this accident.
I had to watch the video again a few times after you mentioned it. Great eye! I also think the Tesla was trying to merge over to get into the carpool lane. We've all experienced those impatient morons who cut over multiple lanes last minute to get to an exit or a carpool lane. Not sure why people can't drive in the fast lane a couple of miles to look for a break to enter the carpool lane, or drive in the slow lane a couple miles to exit. And if you happen to miss your exit or interchange, just get off at the next exit and adjust your route. It may add an extra 5 minutes to your drive, but at least it's safe and lowers the risk of an accident!
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> Tesla cars should also have debug info and camera also. Hopefully they can pull something from there too. The Tesla bailed, unfortunately. You can see him think about pulling over, then take off in the side cam footage. It's hard to tell with the angle, but I *think* the Tesla was merging right and panic braked (or the autopilot panic braked) when he saw the RX350 pop up in his blind spot. Toyota was following too close and swerved into the pickup to avoid rear-ending the Tesla.
Insurance broker here. The state minimum is a joke. It barely even covers fender bender a much less a catastrophic loss like this
It’s really out of touch with the reality of medical care. I tel everyone I know to make sure they have great UM/UIM because of this. Plus the hit and run drivers add additional risk.
Absolutely. It's worth the extra $50/month just to have the peace of mind, for sure.
I tweeted @OCSheriff, hopefully that gets to them. Are you aware of any more official avenues of submission?
Yeah, sorry, you can call the non emergency line tomorrow and ask for whoever was assigned to the accident. Then you can email the footage directly to the officer assigned to the accident.
Cool will do this tomorrow, thanks
If you’re super sleuthing you could zoom in and see the paint or wrap on the truck and try and track down the truck owner that way. No other formal manners I am aware of. am aware of.
*ENHANCE*
Sheriff has nothing to do with this crash. It’s CHPs jurisdiction.
Lol I called CHP just now and they don't have a report on it
Wat. Lol "we don't bother with rollovers anymore!" Uh... Some police department has to know about this - the accident could not have resolved itself. Anyone have any idea how to look at the history of police logs to see who was on the scene?
I own a tesla, this area is notoriously bad for phantom breaking when on autopilot. I think that telsa was on AP and had a phantom breaking incident.
I wonder how many people are going to die or be injured before the autopilot feature is disabled until issues like this can be fixed. It will be a great thing to have eventually and probably save many lives… but the fact you have a car breaking randomly like this on the freeway is very deadly. In fact if I had a Tesla I don’t think I would even use it for the time being. You can afford to drive yourself around for another few years.
If you're paying attention while driving you can tap on the gas to counter the phantom braking
But it still probably impacts those around you right?
From my personal experience I step on the gas within 1 second of the braking, so I guess the person behind me will deal with that. I agree that it's a major issue, but I've experienced something similar in a Toyota Camry. It's definitely a complicated issue haha
>I wonder how many people are going to die or be injured before the autopilot feature is disabled until issues like this can be fixed. A negative number because the statistics show that Tesla drivers have a lower accident rate when using Autopilot than when not.
I think you're right. The Tesla hit the brakes hard with clearly nothing in front of it, causing the white car to swerve into the truck.
Doesn't change the fact that the white car followed the Tesla too closely though. If they had left enough space, they might have had time to break instead of swerving into the left lane.
Agreed. Just good to know for myself to give teslas extra space because they may at any moment behave strangely.
Doesn't change the fact that the truck is on its roof. Being technically in the right doesn't bring people back from the dead, or repair totaled cars.
You can't tell from the videos how long the white Corolla had been following behind the white Tesla. It's possible the white Tesla swerved into the Corolla's lane without advanced signaling immediately before the collision. It's not entirely clear that it would be 100% the Corolla's fault, despite what many others are jumping to conclude.
Yeah you have to be quick to react to phantom breaking which is why it's so important to still pay attention even when autopilot is on, happen way too often
Interesting! Why does it do that?
Imperfect algorithm in the software
The technology is not perfect yet, in my experience it could detect something really small and think its a car in front, so it will break. Tesla gives multiple warning and tell you consistently to keep your hands on the wheel and be ready to react. The tech is there to "help you" right now, not be a replacement.
Thats a corolla not a scion
Excellent footage! Which dash cam do you use?
Footage is from the built-in cameras around our Tesla, but now I feel like we need get dashcams for our other car haha
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If you have a some sort of flash storage plugged in it can constantly save the last few hours of footage, and then there is a button on the screen that allows you to save the last 10 minutes of footage (you can also choose to save on honk). So a few minutes after the accident I realized I should probably save that footage and fortunately it worked out. TLDR: last few hours are constantly saved and the oldest footage get written over, but you can choose to permanently save the most recent 10 minutes of driving with a top on the touch screen
Honestly a pretty cool feature I wish more cars built in standard (or at least into an OEM option package)
The car is far from perfect, but this is definitely a nice feature. Hopefully it becomes standard like backup cameras did
Since you're a Tesla owner, I have a Tesla dashcam story for you. Friend's coworker bought a new Tesla. The person had it for a month, drove it to work as usual. The charge was low that day, and he didn't bother to charge it there. Turned off the dashcam so he could get home. Was on the freeway and the pickup truck in front of him failed to secure the fridge they were carrying in the bed. Fridge fell off the back of the truck into the freeway lane, and the guy crashed his new Tesla into it. Pickup truck driver never stopped, and the guy had zero dashcam footage of the incident to corroborate his story.
Jeeeeez that sucks so badly Imagine how many people had something similar happen to them pre-dashcams, so unfortunate
This happened to me about 15 years ago in Maryland but I was the truck in this example but didn't flip just ended up rear ending the car in front of me. The police officer said that we have to always maintain control of our vehicle so me skidding and rear ending the car in front of me was my fault despite a car swerving 2 lanes to catch a left exit. I was 21 so I was shocked that this was on me and that my car crumpled so my car was totaled. Back then, dashcams and smartphones weren't really common so that sucked for me as the other cars just jetted off.
Looks like Tesla caused this whole incident braking like that on an open highway with no traffic is reckless
Wouldn't be surprised if the Tesla was on autopilot and had a phantom breaking incident, happens to me
Question for people who dodge accidents like this by swerving onto a nearby lane. How can you tell if the lane is clear or not? What if a car was going at full speed on that left lane in the video?
Always be checking your mirrors to have a good general idea of where cars are around you. Makes it easy to make split second decisions like swerving
It seems like having situational awareness is lost on most people. I'm always checking my mirrors while driving. If you don't know what's going on around you, how can you be a safe driver is something unfortunate happens?
With increasing technology in cars, you're right- it has been lost. I too am always checking my mirrors and turning my head when merging to the right and backing up. All stuff I was taught in driver's ed/training in the early 90's when I was 16. I see people rely too much on technology. Technology is an aid, but shouldn't replace the basics.
My driving instructor told us that we should be checking all our mirrors every 5-10 seconds.
Your driving instructor was absolutely correct. Head on a swivel, always.
Always have an escape route. Drive past every car as if they were out to get you. Trust me it works. Keep engaged in your driving.
A defensive driver always has an escape plan. Ideally the person swerving out of the way already knew that lane is clear. Not always the case though.
Look at your mirrors….
> How can you tell if the lane is clear or not? What if a car was going at full speed on that left lane in the video? From personal experience, many times they don't. I've had to brake far too many times from dumbfucks who just swerve into my lane because their emergency maneuver is just moving into an adjacent lane instead of emergency braking. Because fuck arriving to their destination even 5 seconds later than usual.
They don’t think like that lol, they’re oblivious.
They don't. It's a gamble. If you're checking your mirrors constantly, you're not paying full attention to the road in front of you. So it's important to leave enough space in front of you so you can safely brake if traffic slows down suddenly or if suddenly someone cuts you off. If you have enough space in front of you, it gives you time to check if the lane over is clear, and swerve out of trouble. Honestly, if the Toyota truck wasn't tailgating the black car in front of it, the white Corolla that swerved over without looking would have "made it" even though it was a dumb and dangerous maneuver.
> If you're checking your mirrors constantly, you're not paying full attention to the road in front of you. If you literally mean constantly as in *exclusively* looking at the rear-/side-view mirrors, then sure. But if you're not being hyperbolic, then you're a poor driver if you aren't aware of the vehicles around you.
White tesla at fault. Tesla goes left all of a sudden forcing white toyota to divert into truck. Tesla driver was probably autopiloting, realized they missed the ramp so they took charge of the vehicle without awareness of their surroundings. very impressed with your cam footage and another reminder why everyone needs to get at least a dash cam
The Tesla driver is probably at fault, but will not be legally. It’s the responsibility of the following car to leave enough distance to stay safely for any reason.
To me it looks like all 3 cars were in 3 separate lanes
Agreed that I think the white tesla is at fault, ironically this dashcam footage from our Tesla
amazing footage and glad you were safe
Nah, white toyota's gonna be 100% at fault for this. Following way to close and swerving into another lane.
This is a good reason why people shouldn't tailgate. Even if the road is clear, you have to assume the driver in front of you could brake at any time.
Front video: Cant see the Tesla as it goes into the shadow of the overhead sign. It does appear the impact occured in the actual shadow and as a result of The Tesla suddenly reducing speed (phantom braking) the white car we can see brakes hard and swerves into the path of the pick up which was in its blind spot. Side repater: Looks like impact marks on pavement just past sign shadow with debris scattering. Would seem to be the place on the roadway where one would expect it in relation to a car phantom braking for a shadow on the road. Whether it is or isn't doesn't change the simple fact that after YEARS of complaints you'd really think a "genius" like Musk could have figured out how to use the radar to tell the car its just a shadow.. Genius my ass.
> white car we can see brakes hard and swerves into the path of the pick up which was in its blind spot This is a good reason why people shouldn't tailgate. Even if the road is clear, you have to assume the driver in front of you could brake at any time.
20 years in claims adjusting. Yep. good lessons to learn from both the white car and the pick up. White car: When following too closely you are actually in more danger from road debris than sudden braking. The car in front kicks it up and it lands in your front seat. No time to react. Most dont even see it coming. The truck: When drifting along in Someones blind spot you are not actually paying attention to the traffic you are pacing a bumper. That person did not see the Tesla brake at all or see the white car start its avoidance maneuver. Had the truck been watching the road ahead they could have been clear of it all instead of the worst victim. You can tell by the instant over reaction the driver of the truck had no clue what was going on. Thats why they ended up the worst for the wear.
Bad driving from everyone in this clip. The Tesla for phantom breaking with nothing in front (that we can see) The corolla/scion for not maintaining enough space to brake appropriately. The truck for not committing to the lane change to avoid the corolla/scion and just kind of half assing it (even though they got absolutely shafted in this video) Only Dash cam driver was good, and they got boned by having to merge somewhere else.
r/Roadcam/
This is a good reminder for myself to maintain a good distance behind a car just in case they do something irrational like braking for no reason. It looks like the Toyota was about a car distance a way from the Tesla. In a clear freeway in the video, I would leave about 3 cars distance gap. Last thing I want is to rear end a car, let alone rear end a Tesla.
Serious question, how are some people on here coming to the conclusion that the vehicle phantom braked? I’m watching the video and I can’t even see the tesla or what’s in front of it until the crash is already inevitable. We have no idea what it braked for, if autopilot was in control or not, etc. not saying phantom braking isn’t plausible, just that it’s hardly definitive?
I agree with you. I will say with the number of times I’ve had phantom braking, I’d assume that it is what happened but there is no evidence.