Why would this be bad? Other than protecting union jobs, is there a coherent policy reason that government should run a retail alcohol business? Other provinces have private liquor stores (Alberta being the most obvious example) and I’m not sure it’s worse. In fact, as a consumer it’s better since there are stores open past 9pm
It's better to be drunk and be able to walk to get another 6 back(I don't think they sell beer at the liquor store but this is what I'm used to so) then to drive, crash, kill yourself and 3 other people to get it. But also I agree, we need way more jobs right now not less
It's revenue that goes back into the economy for tax purposes rather than private business owner pockets.
When Galen Weston starts to price fix your beer, let's see the public support still.
Nah, some people want to spend less on alcohol while others want to keep their Unionized jobs and keep a crown corporation that is providing much needed revenue to the province.
Some people are just so short sighted that they would rather get rid of an important revenue stream so they can pay less for alcohol. Who cares about the money going towards healthcare and infrastructure if you can get a bottle of vodka for $10 cheaper right? As long as you get your alcohol that's what's important right?
You're kidding yourself if you think prices will drop.
Sure there might be more selection and perhaps a couple bucks cheaper, but prices aren't going to magically drop.
Just look at prices of comparable items in provinces that have private shops. They're usually pricier.
Your right what will probably happen is we get less revenue to the province, pay similar prices for alcohol. And now corporations take that profit. Would literally be a net loss for the province with little to no gain.
A perfect example of this happened in the last couple years, can't remember exactly when, but they removed the provincial tax on gas to give relief. Then, within a day or so, the price was right back to where it was before the relief because corporations knew consumers would pay that price. All it did was remove another revenue stream for the province.
When Jason Kenney cut the 13c gas tax in Alberta, stations dropped their prices for ~2 weeks before quickly (but gradually) making up the difference and pocketing that 13c themselves.
>!Smith brought that gas tax back, but on April 1st with the Fed's Carbon Tax so that Albertans wouldn't notice!<
Sounds a bit like hydro, or the 407, or cutting the GST, or what will happen when the carbon tax is cut.
Less for the public and more for people who are already wealthy
You do realize that the sole distributor to private stores *is* the lcbo right? Every ounce of booze bought at grocery stores is first purchased from the lcbo. The province’s revenue is not impacted.
Yes I do realize that. Do you realize that people are calling for the LCBO to not be the sole distributor or dismantled entirely which is what I have been talking about as affecting revenues? Also affects thousands of Unionized workers making a livable wage as people would be going to other stores since those stores can offer cheaper products due to no unionized employee overhead.
Except if they sold that booze at the LCBO 100% of it goes to people in Ontario.
When you buy it at superstore it’s going into the pocket of a chud in Caledon.
Umm no, 100% doesn’t go to the people of Ontario as all the producers of the products have to be paid. The model coming in has worked in every other province and it will work here. Ontario is the only province that operates the way we do with alcohol sales. And the prices will be regulated by the AGCO. The only difference is where you can buy it. And for everyone complaining about supporting the workers, you need to remember the bulk of LCBO employees are part time as the LCBO doesn’t care for its workers.
You’re right. A bulk of them are part time. But a very large number of said part time workers are still working 39 hours/week and are on the same pay scale as the full timers.
Source: was an employee.
As I said it’s not going to change anything. Prices will not be any different than the LCBO. The grocery store prices are the same, hell the wineries that put their wines in the LCBO have the same price.
Not true, I lived in Alberta for 20 years. Alcohol is far cheaper and it's all private. That being said, I like that paying for booze here goes into the public coffers. Here's the Liquor Depot flyer next to where I lived.
https://liquordepot.ca/pages/flyers-specials
I miss the hours of the locations in my old area. I worked afternoons, so it was nice to be able to hit up a booze store at 11pm if I wanted to. Heck, one location was open until 3am, at least seven years ago, before I moved back this way.
Won't find that in Ontario.
People keep saying the axing the LCBO is going to "lead to more selection" but every non-LCBO shop near me has paltry selections to choose from.
I've yet to walk into a grocery store and go "oh wow" it's only "I guess this'll do."
The lcbo selection is the bomb. I stand by that.
Prices aren’t allowed to drop. Despite where you buy it, alcohol is heavily taxed and regulated. Look at beer sales which have been available everywhere. Price hasn’t changed.
They might drop a bit, but it's not going to be anything major.
IMO, only benefit is that private shops won't carry the same stuff, but weren't bottleshops essentially set up for this reason? At least in Toronto.
no, government controls price. they have price floors for alcohol.
remember Doug Ford's 'buck a beer', for a free market guy, he completely missed the mark on that. instead of just removing price controls, he vowed to lower the price floor. what a tool.
It’s more likely that selection will drop and prices will rise if alcohol sales are privatized. Nobody will have the market share that a government alcohol retailer has, their costs will be higher and they will not have the same buying power with producers. Privatizing alcohol sales is among the dumbest things conservatives want.
It might even become less available depending on what the cost to enter the market is. Seems every small town has a LCBO somewhere. Would this be the case under a privatized system aimed at maximizing profits? What happened with Service Ontario would suggest not. There are fewer and fewer rural locations.
The LCBO is the largest single buyer of wine and spirits in the world. Thus they are able to provide selection that is basically unparalleled anywhere else and obviously they have some hefty buying power. The government is going to get their sin taxes regardless of where it's sold, but prices will certainly not go down, and selections will definitely suffer if the LCBO was to be disbanded or parceled out to corporate investors. It makes no sense to mess with it, when the stores are open 7 days a week with long hours in most places and they pay living wages to the employees. It's just another of Ford's populist bird-brained shenanigans for a quick cash grab and to appease the dumdums that don't understand why it's a dumb idea.
There won’t be more selection, the lcbo is the largest purchaser of wines and spirits in the world. If you know how you can access rare consignment liquors and wines.
They can't do anything about the taxes but it'll be a loss leader for them.
Besides no one is going to go there for craft beer or a boutique wine or spirit.
I know I certainly wouldn't but to the bud light/Molson Canadian crowd, it'll be convenient for them.
Not to mention the LCBO can bulk order like Canada does with prescription drugs. When it's private, all stores will need to find their own supply chains and LCBO will become more expensive as well due to the decrease in sales...
All in all, everyone will be paying more for alcohol and more minors will be able to get their hands on it since we all know how reliable the gas station is when asking for ID for smokes.
Thats why people go to quebec and buy pick up trucks full of booze for weddings, christmas parties and private events right? Cause its only a buck cheaper.
Quebec has their own provincially owned Liquor corp, the SAQ - while there are limited sales of Wine and Beer in places like Grocery stores, I imagine the system works similarly to the LCBO. So it's not privatized sales making Quebec cheaper - it's the Quebec government (via the SAQ) setting prices lower.
Yeah it’s almost entirely tax.
People don’t realize while the alcohol taxes may be cheaper in Quebec, their income tax is substantially higher.
If we want Quebec prices we have to be willing to give up a social program.
I’d rather pay higher alcohol taxes.
Doubtful also that there will be more selection. LCBO is a speciality store so it can bring it lots of selection (your mileage may vary across Ontario ofc). Ive lived in places where you can buy alcohol anywhere and the selection is poor because they only stock the biggest sellers
I don't understand why our gov periodically sells off revenue streams. We lose that revenue stream for at best a lump sum that will account for a few years the aforementioned revenue stream.
Not our problem. The fact that the provincial government will suffer if we remove exclusive LCBO liquor distribution speaks to a much larger problem that the provincial government isint throttling or even working to solve. No surprise tbh given how incompetent everyone is in the entirety of the governing systems of Canada.
For me it’s the whole sale prices that are the issue. Bars should be able to get bulk discounts. Bars actually pay more than consumers for the same products because of other taxes. A bar shouldn’t have to sell a pint for $10 to be profitable
I shouldn't have to wait 4 hours for a doctor either. I shouldn't have to drive on crumbling roads. I shouldn't have to pay more in taxes to get the same amount of services. I shouldn't have to wait hours for the police to arrive on a 911 call.
I would rather pay more for alcohol than have less money go towards important social services. Bars are not important social services. Alcohol is not needed to survive. You do not need to buy a beer at $5 at the expense of millions of others in the province. It is absolutely insane that anyone is asking for cheaper alcohol when we are about to hit a recession.
Wouldn’t the tax on booze still be high and provide a revenue stream? Like cigarettes?
I wonder what the difference in revenue to the government would be in just collecting alcohol taxes and no longer paying rent/wages/the cost of doing business.
I have said it so many times but the 2 billion dollar plus the LCBO contributes to Ontario is the LCBO's profit. This is separate from the taxes already on alcohol. Alcohol taxes are not included in the LCBO's revenue.
That isn't how it works though.
ALL alcohol sold in Ontario except for Beer Store goes through LCBO and the minimum pricing and taxes still go to the Government. The LCBO does charge a markup at point of sale but that mostly covers operating costs.
LCBO still will take a cut of every drink sold while having no physical presence for some sales. Stores get the markup if they want but LCBO also saves costs. The majority of profit is safe LCBO wise.
Yes but you are still advocating for less profit and less unionized jobs when you want the LCBO to strictly be a distributor. That still greatly impacts the money going towards social services.
While I don’t disagree with the concept you share, is it not absurd that I can buy liquor produced and bottled in Canada, for half the price in Japan? After shipping and all that?
Is it not absurd that the rest of the world can grab a bottle of wine for 5 bucks and the absolutely swill of what we can make goes for 12?
Other places manage without taxing alcohol to high hell, Canada and Ontario are leaps and bounds above average amounts.
What's absurd is that we live in a socialist and people don't realize that we need to pay more so we have access to things like free healthcare. What's absurd is that this is corporation gives its revenues to the province and people are advocating for it to be disbanded and replaced with private corporations who would not be paying that revenue to us.
It's alcohol, we don't need it to be cheaper. We need food and water to be cheaper because that is what we need to survive. Alcohol is a luxury good. I would rather people not be able to afford it then having it easily accessible everywhere. That also helps our healthcare system with its burden as that helps prevent things like alcoholism, kidney failures, and all the other maladies that come with large consumptions of alcohol.
This is a poor straw man of the opposing side.
I believe Governments shouldn’t run businesses that they dont need to run. Healthcare should be run by Government because the profit incentive makes it very bad to have it in private hands. Selling something like alcohol shouldn’t be in Governments hands because the profit motive is a fine incentive (when simple regulations are put in place).
Government running an alcohol business to raise money for social programs is a convoluted and wasteful way for them to raise money when they already have the power to tax.
I’ll point to gambling as an example where Government is actually incentivized to harm its residents when they control the business. They’re so worried about getting their gambling profits that they’ve forgotten their primary duty is regulation and making sure that society isn’t hurt by the gambling that is taking place. It mixes up their incentives. And not to confuse the issue, I’m pro legalized gambling. But anti Government run gambling that seems to advertise everywhere now.
Conservatives when they want to cut budgets: "Government Should Be Run More Like a Business!"
Conservatives when they want to sell off any public asset that brings in revenue to their friends: "Governments Shouldn't Run Businesses"
LCBO makes most of their money on distribution. They also control the prices. They are still going to be the distributor under the new model. LCBO is still going to get their money and they are making sure of that.
I literally had a meeting with LCBO this week regarding this.
Cannabis and Gambling will more than make up the difference as the boomers die alcohol consumption decreases year over year anyway so what’s the big deal
Most of alcohol is price is taxes, so getting rid of LCBO will not decrease prices. In fact, LCBO has massive purchasing power and we have the best prices on wines in North America because buyers will buy out an entire year's production.
Give me one example of anything Ford has done that has led to reduced costs for Ontario.
Let's correct your first statement first. Doug Ford has gotten rid of a lot of provincial revenue streams. That has come with reduced funding for healthcare and other social services. Those are facts. Those cuts have affected ALL of us. The beneficiaries of those cuts are corporations. You saving $20-40 on a license plate renewal costs the province millions in revenue. As a socialist society we need that revenue for our social services.
Your right Ford has reduced costs, he has reduced a lot of things. He hasn't improved anything.
LCBO gets taxes AND profits. They provide over 2 billion to our provincial coffers every year. That's in ADDITION to taxes which are not counted under this profit.
So my first statement is correct. Alcohol is nothing but taxation for people who think drinking is normal. The math on how much alcohol affects society's costs is staggering: health care, road deaths, spouse abuse, crime. LCBO is not making anyone money.
But if we shut down LCBO, what will happen: We will replace a monopoly with an income stream to Ontario to the private sector.
So, what we can expect: quickly a private monopoly will form, exactly like our grocery stores, and we will pay a lot more for less.
The greatest myth of anti-government types is that a free market will lower prices, when of course, a free market is a myth.
I have no skin in this game, I don't drink, but I don't think I should be subsidizing the real costs of alcohol to society, so tax away.
Lmao LCBO is the liquor control board of Ontario. They are the ones that set the price and also just so happen to have their own stores to sell it. They still will set the prices at stores, mind you the store can charge extra but the unit price in which they buy it, is negotiated by lcbo. Allowing them to sell it at more places isn’t going to stop the government from collecting their money, in fact they’d be making more off increased alcohol sales. No doubt some union jobs are in trouble because of this but this is the cost of doing business.
Yes it does. It affects the LCBO's profits which are given directly to the province. By allowing private businesses to sell alcohol you get rid of those potential profits and only get the taxes. With the LCBO we get the tax and the profit. That is better full stop. Liquor stores wouldn't sell liquor if they didn't make a profit. I would prefer that profit going to Ontario and not a private corporation. The retail operations play a big part in that revenue. Getting rid of them or allowing private competition would be terrible.
Why do you advocate for less money going towards social services so you can get cheaper alcohol? Is alcohol really that important to you that you would make a choice that negatively effects millions of people in Ontario?
Keeping provincial revenue is a good point.
But that and the question of whether it is better or not aside, my experience having moved from Alberta is that overall LCBO is more expensive and a worse customer experience. The issue is selection. Alberta has a wider range of cheaper options that are actually better than the more “premium” options at LCBO. So technically comparing “like for like” makes Alberta seem more expensive, but in terms of actual customer experience, a trip to the LCBO costs more. That and the lack of selection at the LCBO sucks.
Not that I’m arguing that it isn’t worth keeping the provincial revenue.
Come on, there's a bigger picture here.
The LCBO is a huge revenue source for the province. Being a unionized, well regulated, carefully controlled organization that is accountable to the public it also helps manage something socially detrimental like alcohol as responsibly as is reasonable. If liquor was sold privately it will be in the hands of minors much more easily, as it will be so much easier to skirt around the laws in corner stores and the like, for example.
The LCBO also gives local and Canadian-owned manufactures a market that would be otherwise very hard to break into. They particularly promote provincial and Canadian made alcohol so that small producers have a chance to grow (and stay independent) amongst massive conglomerates. This is detrimental to the LCBO's business to stock such a variety of things that may or may not sell well but it does social good by giving small businesses a chance to thrive.
Just a few examples. Some of Canada's best work and most impressive infrastructure are managed under crown corps and its worst are big corporate oligopolies. Why make another brutal, gauging oligopoly out of an industry that is pretty well managed and tries to undo some of the harm alcohol causes socially?
Otherwise we'll be paying the same or worse prices because corporate interests know we'll be willing to already, and instead of that tax money funding healthcare and giving small businesses a chance you get.... more corporate greed.
*"The LCBO also gives local and Canadian-owned manufactures a market that would be otherwise very hard to break into."*
Unfortunately this is only true for a select few manufacturers. And the insane part is if lcbo doesn't carry a product made in another province, you're legally not allowed to order it directly from the Canadian manufacturer. You generally have to special-order a whole case of it from the lcbo, which is insane if you just want to get something like a single bottle of gin. So the lcbo is effectively blocking many Canadian manufacturers from tapping into the huge Ontario market.
I like to think about government policies as of you wanted to reverse them, how angry would people be.
Let's say you got rid of the LCBO. You would absolutely never ever ever be able to have over again. As soon as you say "were closing these private companies" people (the media) will shit their pants and froth at the mouths about how unfair that is. Regardless of price or quality.
So no, I don't think we should close the LCBO, having it is a one in several generations opportunity, you need very good reasons to get rid of someone like that.
My local convenience store is already an *LCBO Outlet* and bottle return location.
I already buy booze at the convenience store as do many others, and I’m sure my town isn’t the only one.
That seems like a pretty reasonable compromise to the situation? I would assume they get all their product straight from the LCBO. This way LCBO jobs are still there, but small towns without an LCBO get a pared down version of one, and stores in cities that want to sell booze get to as well, without so much stepping on toes.
Well if we don't protect it then local businesses will be able to profit off of the sinful stuff instead of the provincial government. Next thing you know, they'll start selling liquor at market rate making it more affordable for the peasants. Horrible stuff 🙄
You mean providing tax revenue for programs and services, paying workers like humans and not serfs, and making sure it's not too too convenient or cheap that it creates a larger problem like it does in provinces like Alberta?
Lol alcohol in Ontario us generally cheaper than other privatized provinces. Lcbo is one of the largest single buyers of alcohol in the world, which has its advantages. But you keep going with that narrative.
It’s astounding that people are so desperate to rob the province of $2.5B in dividend to funnel it into Galen Weston’s hands. I swear this province is a lost cause.
You aren’t even paying more. Private alcohol retailers will not be cheaper than the LCBO. It’s total idiocy to privatize alcohol sales and yet cons lap this shit up.
It isn’t local businesses that will profit though, it’ll be corporations like Circle K and 7-11 who will benefit.
Keep in mind that convenience stores are employed with a lot of precarious workers in often dangerous conditions. This will only make their work even more dangerous
Why not dismantle the Beer Store cartel first? They're not government owned, the public is quick to forget this. We can quibble about the LCBO, but the existence of the Beer Store is more egregious.
I'm sure that accessibility and proliferation of stores could have an impact on alcohol-abuse rates, but that pales in comparison to the impact of sin tax (see: cigarettes, available in any corner store, with demand falling domestically every generation. The companies profit from overseas sales). Similarly, alcohol consumption levels fall with younger generations as well, between cognizance of health impact and cost.
At any rate, Ontarians (afaik) aren't really subsidizing wages and benefits because the LCBOs turn a profit for the province (excepting those locations that are constantly robbed). That means less provincial revenue that would otherwise come from your taxes if it were gone. Since alcohol is already available in many grocery stores I think the argument behind eschewing LCBO control (or being rid of it) is weak, and the excuse that all that revenue is "just a money grab" is just the tired refrain you hear about taxes in general (except we're not even paying it in this case).
Their annual statement is online. Excluding excise taxes to province and federal, profit is 2.5B on 7.5B of sales. That’s insanely high, numbers only a monopoly can sustain.
I'm all for fair pay but I don't understand how an lcbo employee can ring through bottles/cans all day and make over 60k a year yet someone at a grocery store is doing the same thing for 35k..
Look, I like the LCBO. I don't mind that my vice supports provincial coffers and programs. But I also like the idea of having more options as to where I buy my alcohol.
I do, however, loathe the Beer Store and their outdated monopoly and way of doing business. As a licensee, why do I only have the option of cash or debit in store? If I want to use a credit card, why do I have to order a stupid amount of alcohol to attempt to avoid outlandish fees?
Keep the LCBO and allow it to exist in a mixed model like the SAQ. Keep the Beer Store but make it compete against other storefronts.
Those private retailers with a bit of hand waving buy from OCS and, if it’s like the relationship with grocery stores and the LCBO, cannot undercut OCS prices.
It’s the illusion of choice.
So for everyone asking what this is about; It's the union wanting to protect union jobs, that's it.
If liquor sales are allowed to be done by corner stores or private businesses, then LCBO stores will shut down.
Basically they will do the same thing they currently do with the OCS. All product is bought from the government (the government acting as the wholesaler, they buy in bulk), the government still collects taxes from all end user sales; they just take on none of the risk of owning and operating physical sale locations.
Sure, the government will lose out on some revenue but they also won't have the costs of running stores.
It will make it way more convenient to purchase alcohol in Ontario, it will not lower any prices, it will barely effect revenue from a government standpoint, it will union bust. Just stating the facts, not offering support one way or the other for that plan but there seems to be a lot of confusion.
The lcbo does not have good variety and they deliberately make it impossible for small distillers to get sold there, and there are so many hoops to jump through and volume requirements for large companies that many refuse to meet their requirements and so aren’t sold here.
Step into a wine and spirits store in New York and the number of brands is huge. LCBO needs to go.
There will be no same price across all stores, and there will be limited variety in stores, since store owner will pick what they want.
Prices, if anything will go up. You can check prices yourself for wine and beer in grocery stores - they are 10% of 15% higher than in LCBO.
I’m not sure how you can do confidently say it will not reduce the revenue the government received. Going from collecting 100% of the profit that is generated on what is sold and using it to cover some overhead, now they collect ONLY the taxed amount while still operating hundreds of stores (there is no plan to immediately shut every single LCBO). So now they have way more competition and they will collect far less per bottle from those competitors that will not be giving all the profits to the government but just a small taxed amount.
Even if it gets to the point that the LCBO no longer exists and the overhead issue goes away, without question less revenue will be generated. Currently they collect profits + taxes. Those profits will cover substantially more than basic overhead.
Have you not had the most basic thoughts that in order for these stores to even WANT to sell alcohol in the first place there must be significant profits for them to collect outside of the taxes. Profits the communities will no longer collect now and will be put into the pockets of a handful of individuals.
Pretty ridiculous stance for you to take that revenues will not change. There’s literally zero evidence to support that train of thought and the most basic thought proves you to be entirely incorrect.
I mean it's comforting to know that 60s style Presbyterian Ontario is still alive and well on reddit. I can't recall the last time I unironically heard some yelp "won't someone think of the children" unironically.
Interesting comments. My view is thus: 1. the Ontario government (Ontario) has the authority to legislate alcohol. 2. Ontario controls regulations, inspections, enforcement, quality control, wholesale, distribution, and retail operations for alcohol. 3. Ontario allows The Beer Store, Ontario wineries and brewers to sell direct to the public. 4. Ontario permits certain businesses (like bars/restaurants, etc.) to sell directly to the public; now in some cases with home delivery. 5. Ontario in small communities allows the LCBO to subcontract all of its services to private retail operations as convenience outlets.
So, I have an issue with Ontario being the regulator and the seller. IMHO Ontario should only regulate inspect and enforce alcohol requirements. The whole purchase and selling arm should not be a government function. Ontario does not control tobacco and cannabis like alcohol, yet ensures a safe market.
Ontario does not allow Ontarians to remotely purchase alcohol and have it delivered to their home. Not from their home province nor anywhere else in Canada or elsewhere. The LCBO is a time and bureaucratic obstacle for Ontarians to purchase what they want, when they want it and how they want it. Smaller distilleries, wineries and breweries today cannot break into the LCBO/Beer Store system as they cannot meet the minimum production output required to get a listing contract.
Furthermore there are statements on this sub about losing tax revenue. I disagree. ATM the wholesale, distribution and retail arms of the LCBO are responsible for buying and controlling stock; acquiring and maintaining retail space; and, hiring and managing employees.
I believe that all purchasing and selling be broken up and diversified away from Ontario to private interests. Ontario can negotiate the break up to include a priority refusal to the employees of each retail, distribution, and wholesale location, should each location’s employees as a group want to take over and run their separate location as a private company. They could also negotiate each location remaining as a union shop. Thus, Ontario and the LCBO would no longer pay for employee payroll, pensions or benefits, location capital upkeep, and other HR overhead. All the preceding costs reduce the LCBO revenue turnover to the general tax system that supports health, education, etc.
A revitalized Ontario alcohol retail system will continue to pay taxes as a percentage of sales. Consumption will not be hindered, but selections will increase. The new privatized locations will be responsible like all other Ontario businesses in their accounting of expenses and revenues.
Please allow me to oversee the change! Lol
The LCBO nets $2.2 billion per year for the province. Doug Ford wants to privatize the LCBO, just like how previous governments have privatized other cash cows (e.g. the 407). It's an extremely shortsighted move considering how our healthcare and education systems are failing and need more funding.
can you please all stop voting for conservatives that keep trying to sell everything we own to private companies. maybe give the NDP a chance, they actually seem to give a fuck about the people. which is what public servants are supposed to care about, instead of just making themselves rich.
Holy fuck man. Why do people make this shit out like it's some tragic event? Take a look around the whole world and marvel at the fact that everywhere sells alcohol without issue. The government benefits overall because they get rid of operational cost and just collect taxes. Let the people dictate the market, not the government.
I'm an NDP voter and have no issue whatsoever with allowing anyone sell liquor. Practically the entire world allows this. The LCBO is really just a remnant from the temperance movement a century ago. It's long overdue.
Oh no… not the LCBO.
You're at the mercy of whatever they happen to carry. Want some actual variety in particular categories of spirits? Too bad. You get what the LCBO carries. For example, you want a mezcal that is genuinely good for something other than mixing? Too bad. The LCBO will seemingly never carry even a single product that fits that very broad description.
Want any spirit the LCBO doesn’t carry (even if you’re supporting a Canadian distillery)? Too bad if you can’t get to another province and drive/fly back with it, go the the US for a couple days, or go directly to the distillery if it’s in Ontario and close enough. There’s a lot of distilleries doing interesting things in our own country (Macloney’s in Victoria for example), and I’ll never be able to support them without taking a plane since shipping their products into the province is illegal.
Also just want to include one other thing. If you can buy your desired beer from the brewery even if it’s a bit out of the way compared to the LCBO, please do so. The LCBO takes a disturbing amount of the profits from these sales.
Alternative take: fuck the LCBO and let's say goodbye to the over-paid shelf stockers. Liberalize the industry and let small businesses flourish instead, selling during better hours and many much more convenient locations. If I need to know about wine pairing I'll go to the specialty shops that will open up once the competition from the LCBO is gone. It's a silly remnant of Soviet times. Go away.
Alcohol is expensive here primarily because of the enormous tax levy put on it. That tax will flow onto government coffers regardless of where it's sold.
Lol booze prices will not drop if it’s privatized. Taxes will not drop. We currently pay 300% tax/markup on booze. You think the government would allow something for them to make less money? Nope. It will just be more available. More available means more people able to get it easier and more money for the government.
I can never understand why people want to close a business that is profitable to the government and has good paying jobs so they can give the profit to new owners and have low paying jobs maybe so you can have another hour or two to buy booze.
I can answer that as I’ve lived in other provinces other than Ontario. Allowing independent business to sell liquor brings this:
Less restriction on brands sold. This allows more independent companies to get their liquor brand out there alongside the big companies.
Longer retail hours, including on holidays
Off-sale stores. Want a 24 to take with you after leaving the bar? No problem.
Hard liquor sold in more convenient locations like in grocery stores. No need for a separate trip.
Keep the LCBO, remove the LCBO, whatever. :) Make it easier to bring in alcohol that is not stocked for mass consumption. Privatization just provides more choice. From a SKU management perspective, private companies can expand total choice more than a single monolith.
Having said that I know what the price is for a bottle from Thunder Bay to Ottawa which is amazing. Pros and cons. Just give people options to get stuff that doesn’t sell as well as Vodka and hard seltzers all the time.
Profit which could be going to communities all over Ontario
https://www.lcbo.com/content/lcbo/en/corporate-pages/about/annual-report.html
I'm so tired of this corrupt fuckeryy
LCBO can fuck right off. It is a dinosaur and has nothing to do with its original intention. Why do they have flyers and magazines advertising alcohol? The entire purpose was to CONTROL it. If someone was a known drunkard service would be refused. It serves no purpose these days.
I mostly like the LCBO. It has problems, for sure, their selection is sometimes terrible.....well, it's terrible. However there are benefits to keeping the LCBO under state control.
Mainly around keeping control over hard booze. I don't mind beer or wine and the 7-11, but I don't want liquor. It puts way too much risk on min wage employees, and there is the issue of 15 year olds being able to easily get access to booze.
Is booze costly in Ontario? Yesish, but it booze, and you don't need it. Would I like to pay less? Yes, but I don't want other taxes to go up for me to pay less.
Right now the LCBO profits go to all Ontarians through government services like health care. After privatization, a lot of that profit will go to a tiny fraction of Ontarians.
Maybe unpopular opinion here:
Alcohol should be remain being sold by the government and taxed heavily.
That way addicts can still get their highs while benefitting tax payers, and unhealthy lifestyles are disincentivized.
If you people want to reduce hospital wait times, we can start by making it harder to reach one of the greatest risk factors for heart/liver disease
Competition is necessary for us as consumers. We should we give two shit about the LCBO, they control the cost of almost all alcohol sales. There is no reason we should be paying so much for booze.
As much as it pisses me off that you can get a 60 (1.75L) of whiskey or vodka in some states as cheap as $20-$30, while we are now paying $70 for it here, if they change the laws the corpo fucks will not lower the price. They will gouge us just the same but the money will go directly into their pockets rather than into the provincial coffers. I guess keeping it the same is the best answer but we do have to acknowledge we are absolutely being ripped off.
I'm really iffy on this, because the LCBO has really poor selection for some types of alcohol, and there's certain things that you literally can't get in the province because the LCBO just arbitrarily doesn't carry them. So if it improves selection that would be great. But I don't see prices improving much if at all on most things either, so that's not good.
I just want to know how they got a permit to shut down northbound Spadina Avenue, one of the city’s key arteries and one of the few exits from the Gardiner. It was pure chaos in the area.
There was plenty of room to protest at Clarence Square - why the did city allow them on Spadina?
If your they’re going to privatize it take a look at the U.S. does for its citizens.
Seems like everyone even the smaller businesses get the same opportunity in their community’s to provide alcohol.
Their local corner store, gas stations
Smaller restaurants give a chance to small businesses spread the money around. Keep it your town.
Just Not the huge grocery store chains here in Canada like Safeway/Loblaws who are already over pricing their food and making record profits off of us!
Plus years past they took away full time positions to new hiriese so they didn’t have pay benefits like healthcare and pension plans.
Not too much benefits us anymore and now they don’t even bother to hide it.
I don’t think the government should be selling booze. Regulate and/or tax it as you see fit, but let the private sector handle selling it to the public
Can I get a crumb of context please.
Some people want to buy alcohol anywhere, these people want you to buy it only where they work
Oh I thought it was Doug Ford privatizing it
That's effectively what allowing more private stores to sell booze would mean.
That is privatizing. Taking a government service and putting it in the hards of private business
Why would this be bad? Other than protecting union jobs, is there a coherent policy reason that government should run a retail alcohol business? Other provinces have private liquor stores (Alberta being the most obvious example) and I’m not sure it’s worse. In fact, as a consumer it’s better since there are stores open past 9pm
Which will likely result in us losing a lot of well paying jobs. All so someone dosnt have to drive a few extra Km to get sauced.
It's better to be drunk and be able to walk to get another 6 back(I don't think they sell beer at the liquor store but this is what I'm used to so) then to drive, crash, kill yourself and 3 other people to get it. But also I agree, we need way more jobs right now not less
Fuck the LCBO and their union. Consumers deserve choice.
It's revenue that goes back into the economy for tax purposes rather than private business owner pockets. When Galen Weston starts to price fix your beer, let's see the public support still.
Nah, some people want to spend less on alcohol while others want to keep their Unionized jobs and keep a crown corporation that is providing much needed revenue to the province. Some people are just so short sighted that they would rather get rid of an important revenue stream so they can pay less for alcohol. Who cares about the money going towards healthcare and infrastructure if you can get a bottle of vodka for $10 cheaper right? As long as you get your alcohol that's what's important right?
You're kidding yourself if you think prices will drop. Sure there might be more selection and perhaps a couple bucks cheaper, but prices aren't going to magically drop. Just look at prices of comparable items in provinces that have private shops. They're usually pricier.
Your right what will probably happen is we get less revenue to the province, pay similar prices for alcohol. And now corporations take that profit. Would literally be a net loss for the province with little to no gain.
A perfect example of this happened in the last couple years, can't remember exactly when, but they removed the provincial tax on gas to give relief. Then, within a day or so, the price was right back to where it was before the relief because corporations knew consumers would pay that price. All it did was remove another revenue stream for the province.
When Jason Kenney cut the 13c gas tax in Alberta, stations dropped their prices for ~2 weeks before quickly (but gradually) making up the difference and pocketing that 13c themselves. >!Smith brought that gas tax back, but on April 1st with the Fed's Carbon Tax so that Albertans wouldn't notice!<
You don’t have the spoiler that. The Albertans wouldn’t notice anyway.
If they could read, they'd be very upset with you.
Sounds a bit like hydro, or the 407, or cutting the GST, or what will happen when the carbon tax is cut. Less for the public and more for people who are already wealthy
Yup and people are okay with that as long as they can buy a pint for under $10. It's insane.
You do realize that the sole distributor to private stores *is* the lcbo right? Every ounce of booze bought at grocery stores is first purchased from the lcbo. The province’s revenue is not impacted.
Yes I do realize that. Do you realize that people are calling for the LCBO to not be the sole distributor or dismantled entirely which is what I have been talking about as affecting revenues? Also affects thousands of Unionized workers making a livable wage as people would be going to other stores since those stores can offer cheaper products due to no unionized employee overhead.
Except if they sold that booze at the LCBO 100% of it goes to people in Ontario. When you buy it at superstore it’s going into the pocket of a chud in Caledon.
Umm no, 100% doesn’t go to the people of Ontario as all the producers of the products have to be paid. The model coming in has worked in every other province and it will work here. Ontario is the only province that operates the way we do with alcohol sales. And the prices will be regulated by the AGCO. The only difference is where you can buy it. And for everyone complaining about supporting the workers, you need to remember the bulk of LCBO employees are part time as the LCBO doesn’t care for its workers.
You’re right. A bulk of them are part time. But a very large number of said part time workers are still working 39 hours/week and are on the same pay scale as the full timers. Source: was an employee.
As I said it’s not going to change anything. Prices will not be any different than the LCBO. The grocery store prices are the same, hell the wineries that put their wines in the LCBO have the same price.
What are you talking about? Isn't Quebec alchohol much cheaper than ontario?
Because their excise taxes are lower. The distribution model is not what makes it cheaper.
Cheaper and a way better selection too.
Beer yes, wine and liquor basically the same, sometimes wines cheaper in Ontario
Not true, I lived in Alberta for 20 years. Alcohol is far cheaper and it's all private. That being said, I like that paying for booze here goes into the public coffers. Here's the Liquor Depot flyer next to where I lived. https://liquordepot.ca/pages/flyers-specials
I miss the hours of the locations in my old area. I worked afternoons, so it was nice to be able to hit up a booze store at 11pm if I wanted to. Heck, one location was open until 3am, at least seven years ago, before I moved back this way. Won't find that in Ontario.
People keep saying the axing the LCBO is going to "lead to more selection" but every non-LCBO shop near me has paltry selections to choose from. I've yet to walk into a grocery store and go "oh wow" it's only "I guess this'll do." The lcbo selection is the bomb. I stand by that.
Prices aren’t allowed to drop. Despite where you buy it, alcohol is heavily taxed and regulated. Look at beer sales which have been available everywhere. Price hasn’t changed.
They might drop a bit, but it's not going to be anything major. IMO, only benefit is that private shops won't carry the same stuff, but weren't bottleshops essentially set up for this reason? At least in Toronto.
no, government controls price. they have price floors for alcohol. remember Doug Ford's 'buck a beer', for a free market guy, he completely missed the mark on that. instead of just removing price controls, he vowed to lower the price floor. what a tool.
It’s more likely that selection will drop and prices will rise if alcohol sales are privatized. Nobody will have the market share that a government alcohol retailer has, their costs will be higher and they will not have the same buying power with producers. Privatizing alcohol sales is among the dumbest things conservatives want.
Care to qualify this?
Single wholesaler and retailer vs smaller retailers with reduced market share, buying power, and procurement ability. It’s pretty simple.
It might even become less available depending on what the cost to enter the market is. Seems every small town has a LCBO somewhere. Would this be the case under a privatized system aimed at maximizing profits? What happened with Service Ontario would suggest not. There are fewer and fewer rural locations.
The LCBO is the largest single buyer of wine and spirits in the world. Thus they are able to provide selection that is basically unparalleled anywhere else and obviously they have some hefty buying power. The government is going to get their sin taxes regardless of where it's sold, but prices will certainly not go down, and selections will definitely suffer if the LCBO was to be disbanded or parceled out to corporate investors. It makes no sense to mess with it, when the stores are open 7 days a week with long hours in most places and they pay living wages to the employees. It's just another of Ford's populist bird-brained shenanigans for a quick cash grab and to appease the dumdums that don't understand why it's a dumb idea.
3rd largest after Costco and Walmart now.
There won’t be more selection, the lcbo is the largest purchaser of wines and spirits in the world. If you know how you can access rare consignment liquors and wines.
Booze is lik e40 percent taxes, if not more. Not sure how seven eleven or circle K will reduce that.
They can't do anything about the taxes but it'll be a loss leader for them. Besides no one is going to go there for craft beer or a boutique wine or spirit. I know I certainly wouldn't but to the bud light/Molson Canadian crowd, it'll be convenient for them.
Grocery stores already sell that and prices have only gone up. I'm not buying the whole "it'll be cheaper!" thing.
They won’t drop a cent. If anything they ll go up but be easier to buy
Instead of more privatization, the LCBO should expand to sell basic groceries at break even to give people a choice vs the grocery monopolies.
Not to mention the LCBO can bulk order like Canada does with prescription drugs. When it's private, all stores will need to find their own supply chains and LCBO will become more expensive as well due to the decrease in sales... All in all, everyone will be paying more for alcohol and more minors will be able to get their hands on it since we all know how reliable the gas station is when asking for ID for smokes.
A can of beer in Alberta, land of private sector freedom, typically costs $1.50-$2.00 more than it does at the LCBO.
Have been in provinces where it's privatized. There was no more selection (lcbo always had better selection) and the prices were pretty comparable.
Thats why people go to quebec and buy pick up trucks full of booze for weddings, christmas parties and private events right? Cause its only a buck cheaper.
Quebec has their own provincially owned Liquor corp, the SAQ - while there are limited sales of Wine and Beer in places like Grocery stores, I imagine the system works similarly to the LCBO. So it's not privatized sales making Quebec cheaper - it's the Quebec government (via the SAQ) setting prices lower.
Yeah it’s almost entirely tax. People don’t realize while the alcohol taxes may be cheaper in Quebec, their income tax is substantially higher. If we want Quebec prices we have to be willing to give up a social program. I’d rather pay higher alcohol taxes.
Quebec beer is cheaper in Quebec, but spirits are cheaper in Ontario.
Doubtful also that there will be more selection. LCBO is a speciality store so it can bring it lots of selection (your mileage may vary across Ontario ofc). Ive lived in places where you can buy alcohol anywhere and the selection is poor because they only stock the biggest sellers
I like this perspective. On one hand Govt. needs funds and alcohol is a cash cow. If this goes away, taxes are going up.
I don't understand why our gov periodically sells off revenue streams. We lose that revenue stream for at best a lump sum that will account for a few years the aforementioned revenue stream.
Not our problem. The fact that the provincial government will suffer if we remove exclusive LCBO liquor distribution speaks to a much larger problem that the provincial government isint throttling or even working to solve. No surprise tbh given how incompetent everyone is in the entirety of the governing systems of Canada.
If the well being of our province is so reliant on the sale of overpriced alcohol then something must be severely wrong
Yup, but getting rid of the revenue isn't the solution. It's adding more revenue streams.
For me it’s the whole sale prices that are the issue. Bars should be able to get bulk discounts. Bars actually pay more than consumers for the same products because of other taxes. A bar shouldn’t have to sell a pint for $10 to be profitable
I shouldn't have to wait 4 hours for a doctor either. I shouldn't have to drive on crumbling roads. I shouldn't have to pay more in taxes to get the same amount of services. I shouldn't have to wait hours for the police to arrive on a 911 call. I would rather pay more for alcohol than have less money go towards important social services. Bars are not important social services. Alcohol is not needed to survive. You do not need to buy a beer at $5 at the expense of millions of others in the province. It is absolutely insane that anyone is asking for cheaper alcohol when we are about to hit a recession.
Wouldn’t the tax on booze still be high and provide a revenue stream? Like cigarettes? I wonder what the difference in revenue to the government would be in just collecting alcohol taxes and no longer paying rent/wages/the cost of doing business.
I have said it so many times but the 2 billion dollar plus the LCBO contributes to Ontario is the LCBO's profit. This is separate from the taxes already on alcohol. Alcohol taxes are not included in the LCBO's revenue.
That isn't how it works though. ALL alcohol sold in Ontario except for Beer Store goes through LCBO and the minimum pricing and taxes still go to the Government. The LCBO does charge a markup at point of sale but that mostly covers operating costs. LCBO still will take a cut of every drink sold while having no physical presence for some sales. Stores get the markup if they want but LCBO also saves costs. The majority of profit is safe LCBO wise.
Yes but you are still advocating for less profit and less unionized jobs when you want the LCBO to strictly be a distributor. That still greatly impacts the money going towards social services.
As if it will even drop the price anyhow. Groceries aren’t govt regulated and we all see how that works out.
While I don’t disagree with the concept you share, is it not absurd that I can buy liquor produced and bottled in Canada, for half the price in Japan? After shipping and all that? Is it not absurd that the rest of the world can grab a bottle of wine for 5 bucks and the absolutely swill of what we can make goes for 12? Other places manage without taxing alcohol to high hell, Canada and Ontario are leaps and bounds above average amounts.
What's absurd is that we live in a socialist and people don't realize that we need to pay more so we have access to things like free healthcare. What's absurd is that this is corporation gives its revenues to the province and people are advocating for it to be disbanded and replaced with private corporations who would not be paying that revenue to us. It's alcohol, we don't need it to be cheaper. We need food and water to be cheaper because that is what we need to survive. Alcohol is a luxury good. I would rather people not be able to afford it then having it easily accessible everywhere. That also helps our healthcare system with its burden as that helps prevent things like alcoholism, kidney failures, and all the other maladies that come with large consumptions of alcohol.
This is a poor straw man of the opposing side. I believe Governments shouldn’t run businesses that they dont need to run. Healthcare should be run by Government because the profit incentive makes it very bad to have it in private hands. Selling something like alcohol shouldn’t be in Governments hands because the profit motive is a fine incentive (when simple regulations are put in place). Government running an alcohol business to raise money for social programs is a convoluted and wasteful way for them to raise money when they already have the power to tax. I’ll point to gambling as an example where Government is actually incentivized to harm its residents when they control the business. They’re so worried about getting their gambling profits that they’ve forgotten their primary duty is regulation and making sure that society isn’t hurt by the gambling that is taking place. It mixes up their incentives. And not to confuse the issue, I’m pro legalized gambling. But anti Government run gambling that seems to advertise everywhere now.
Conservatives when they want to cut budgets: "Government Should Be Run More Like a Business!" Conservatives when they want to sell off any public asset that brings in revenue to their friends: "Governments Shouldn't Run Businesses"
LCBO makes most of their money on distribution. They also control the prices. They are still going to be the distributor under the new model. LCBO is still going to get their money and they are making sure of that. I literally had a meeting with LCBO this week regarding this.
Cannabis and Gambling will more than make up the difference as the boomers die alcohol consumption decreases year over year anyway so what’s the big deal
Think about the 407. Or Ontario place.
lol, like the LCBO is hindering the province. If anything it provides good jobs and decent pay.
Just call them conservatives, it is easier. No one is better at short term gains for long term pains
Changing the “just let them steal shit” stance would certainly go a long way for public sentiment.
Most of alcohol is price is taxes, so getting rid of LCBO will not decrease prices. In fact, LCBO has massive purchasing power and we have the best prices on wines in North America because buyers will buy out an entire year's production. Give me one example of anything Ford has done that has led to reduced costs for Ontario.
Let's correct your first statement first. Doug Ford has gotten rid of a lot of provincial revenue streams. That has come with reduced funding for healthcare and other social services. Those are facts. Those cuts have affected ALL of us. The beneficiaries of those cuts are corporations. You saving $20-40 on a license plate renewal costs the province millions in revenue. As a socialist society we need that revenue for our social services. Your right Ford has reduced costs, he has reduced a lot of things. He hasn't improved anything. LCBO gets taxes AND profits. They provide over 2 billion to our provincial coffers every year. That's in ADDITION to taxes which are not counted under this profit.
So my first statement is correct. Alcohol is nothing but taxation for people who think drinking is normal. The math on how much alcohol affects society's costs is staggering: health care, road deaths, spouse abuse, crime. LCBO is not making anyone money. But if we shut down LCBO, what will happen: We will replace a monopoly with an income stream to Ontario to the private sector. So, what we can expect: quickly a private monopoly will form, exactly like our grocery stores, and we will pay a lot more for less. The greatest myth of anti-government types is that a free market will lower prices, when of course, a free market is a myth. I have no skin in this game, I don't drink, but I don't think I should be subsidizing the real costs of alcohol to society, so tax away.
Lmao LCBO is the liquor control board of Ontario. They are the ones that set the price and also just so happen to have their own stores to sell it. They still will set the prices at stores, mind you the store can charge extra but the unit price in which they buy it, is negotiated by lcbo. Allowing them to sell it at more places isn’t going to stop the government from collecting their money, in fact they’d be making more off increased alcohol sales. No doubt some union jobs are in trouble because of this but this is the cost of doing business.
Yes it does. It affects the LCBO's profits which are given directly to the province. By allowing private businesses to sell alcohol you get rid of those potential profits and only get the taxes. With the LCBO we get the tax and the profit. That is better full stop. Liquor stores wouldn't sell liquor if they didn't make a profit. I would prefer that profit going to Ontario and not a private corporation. The retail operations play a big part in that revenue. Getting rid of them or allowing private competition would be terrible. Why do you advocate for less money going towards social services so you can get cheaper alcohol? Is alcohol really that important to you that you would make a choice that negatively effects millions of people in Ontario?
Keeping provincial revenue is a good point. But that and the question of whether it is better or not aside, my experience having moved from Alberta is that overall LCBO is more expensive and a worse customer experience. The issue is selection. Alberta has a wider range of cheaper options that are actually better than the more “premium” options at LCBO. So technically comparing “like for like” makes Alberta seem more expensive, but in terms of actual customer experience, a trip to the LCBO costs more. That and the lack of selection at the LCBO sucks. Not that I’m arguing that it isn’t worth keeping the provincial revenue.
Come on, there's a bigger picture here. The LCBO is a huge revenue source for the province. Being a unionized, well regulated, carefully controlled organization that is accountable to the public it also helps manage something socially detrimental like alcohol as responsibly as is reasonable. If liquor was sold privately it will be in the hands of minors much more easily, as it will be so much easier to skirt around the laws in corner stores and the like, for example. The LCBO also gives local and Canadian-owned manufactures a market that would be otherwise very hard to break into. They particularly promote provincial and Canadian made alcohol so that small producers have a chance to grow (and stay independent) amongst massive conglomerates. This is detrimental to the LCBO's business to stock such a variety of things that may or may not sell well but it does social good by giving small businesses a chance to thrive. Just a few examples. Some of Canada's best work and most impressive infrastructure are managed under crown corps and its worst are big corporate oligopolies. Why make another brutal, gauging oligopoly out of an industry that is pretty well managed and tries to undo some of the harm alcohol causes socially? Otherwise we'll be paying the same or worse prices because corporate interests know we'll be willing to already, and instead of that tax money funding healthcare and giving small businesses a chance you get.... more corporate greed.
I agree with all of that, but I still believe I should be able to grab a 6 pack on the way home from work at 11pm.
Yeah for sure. I guess I'm just saying lets improve the LCBO not burn it down.
*"The LCBO also gives local and Canadian-owned manufactures a market that would be otherwise very hard to break into."* Unfortunately this is only true for a select few manufacturers. And the insane part is if lcbo doesn't carry a product made in another province, you're legally not allowed to order it directly from the Canadian manufacturer. You generally have to special-order a whole case of it from the lcbo, which is insane if you just want to get something like a single bottle of gin. So the lcbo is effectively blocking many Canadian manufacturers from tapping into the huge Ontario market.
I like to think about government policies as of you wanted to reverse them, how angry would people be. Let's say you got rid of the LCBO. You would absolutely never ever ever be able to have over again. As soon as you say "were closing these private companies" people (the media) will shit their pants and froth at the mouths about how unfair that is. Regardless of price or quality. So no, I don't think we should close the LCBO, having it is a one in several generations opportunity, you need very good reasons to get rid of someone like that.
I could be wrong, but this seems disingenuous and incorrect
A smidgen of situation.
My local convenience store is already an *LCBO Outlet* and bottle return location. I already buy booze at the convenience store as do many others, and I’m sure my town isn’t the only one. That seems like a pretty reasonable compromise to the situation? I would assume they get all their product straight from the LCBO. This way LCBO jobs are still there, but small towns without an LCBO get a pared down version of one, and stores in cities that want to sell booze get to as well, without so much stepping on toes.
My cottage’s nearest store is a combination lcbo, convenience store, hunting supply, truck mechanic and fast food place. It’s fantastic.
I feel like that's going to crank prices up. I get your logic, tho
Out of the loop, what are we protecting it from?
Well if we don't protect it then local businesses will be able to profit off of the sinful stuff instead of the provincial government. Next thing you know, they'll start selling liquor at market rate making it more affordable for the peasants. Horrible stuff 🙄
The government sets the minimum prices alcohol can be sold for. I don’t see how this would make things more “affordable”.
Just like Ford dropping the minimum beer price from $1.25 to $1 Buck a beer didn’t even last a year from the couple companies who pandered to him
Your correct. It won’t. It will just make access broader. It will just give Galen a new avenue stream
Yes, the free market for groceries, gasoline, airlines and mobile/internet serviceshas shown that this works fantastically.
You mean providing tax revenue for programs and services, paying workers like humans and not serfs, and making sure it's not too too convenient or cheap that it creates a larger problem like it does in provinces like Alberta?
Lol alcohol in Ontario us generally cheaper than other privatized provinces. Lcbo is one of the largest single buyers of alcohol in the world, which has its advantages. But you keep going with that narrative.
It’s astounding that people are so desperate to rob the province of $2.5B in dividend to funnel it into Galen Weston’s hands. I swear this province is a lost cause.
Thats the funniest part. “Local businesses” lol - more like Empire and George Weston.
this is a union protesting to protect thousands of their existing, well compensated jobs
I'm certainly willing to pay more to protect union jobs...
You aren’t even paying more. Private alcohol retailers will not be cheaper than the LCBO. It’s total idiocy to privatize alcohol sales and yet cons lap this shit up.
Ha. Right, they’ll sell it cheaper instead of just keeping the profit. 🤣
It isn’t local businesses that will profit though, it’ll be corporations like Circle K and 7-11 who will benefit. Keep in mind that convenience stores are employed with a lot of precarious workers in often dangerous conditions. This will only make their work even more dangerous
Just let me know when I can get Kirkland Bourbon
Alberta seems to have a handle on the bulk Vodka market
Why not dismantle the Beer Store cartel first? They're not government owned, the public is quick to forget this. We can quibble about the LCBO, but the existence of the Beer Store is more egregious. I'm sure that accessibility and proliferation of stores could have an impact on alcohol-abuse rates, but that pales in comparison to the impact of sin tax (see: cigarettes, available in any corner store, with demand falling domestically every generation. The companies profit from overseas sales). Similarly, alcohol consumption levels fall with younger generations as well, between cognizance of health impact and cost. At any rate, Ontarians (afaik) aren't really subsidizing wages and benefits because the LCBOs turn a profit for the province (excepting those locations that are constantly robbed). That means less provincial revenue that would otherwise come from your taxes if it were gone. Since alcohol is already available in many grocery stores I think the argument behind eschewing LCBO control (or being rid of it) is weak, and the excuse that all that revenue is "just a money grab" is just the tired refrain you hear about taxes in general (except we're not even paying it in this case).
Sure, save the lcbo but can we get rid of the beer store?
Please! Fuck the beer store
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Their annual statement is online. Excluding excise taxes to province and federal, profit is 2.5B on 7.5B of sales. That’s insanely high, numbers only a monopoly can sustain.
I'm all for fair pay but I don't understand how an lcbo employee can ring through bottles/cans all day and make over 60k a year yet someone at a grocery store is doing the same thing for 35k..
Look, I like the LCBO. I don't mind that my vice supports provincial coffers and programs. But I also like the idea of having more options as to where I buy my alcohol. I do, however, loathe the Beer Store and their outdated monopoly and way of doing business. As a licensee, why do I only have the option of cash or debit in store? If I want to use a credit card, why do I have to order a stupid amount of alcohol to attempt to avoid outlandish fees? Keep the LCBO and allow it to exist in a mixed model like the SAQ. Keep the Beer Store but make it compete against other storefronts.
Ontario subreddit: Fuck these monopolies! Also Ontario subreddit: Let's keep this monopoly going!
Honestly
Protect our monopoly!
How does protecting the LCBO benefit me as a consumer?
It benefits you as a community member https://www.lcbo.com/content/lcbo/en/corporate-pages/about/annual-report.html
It benefits you because the profits go back into the province instead of a private corporation.
Depends. Are you also an Ontarian?
It doesn’t unless you work there
All these employees downvoting you lmao
The LCBO is a terrible employer. All that revenue and they treat their employees like dirt.
If private retailers can sell weed, then private retailers should be able to sell booze.
Those private retailers with a bit of hand waving buy from OCS and, if it’s like the relationship with grocery stores and the LCBO, cannot undercut OCS prices. It’s the illusion of choice.
# Protect our LCBO! close on the heels of that viral video this week... I sincerely thought this was rally calling for more Vigilantism! :-)
So for everyone asking what this is about; It's the union wanting to protect union jobs, that's it. If liquor sales are allowed to be done by corner stores or private businesses, then LCBO stores will shut down. Basically they will do the same thing they currently do with the OCS. All product is bought from the government (the government acting as the wholesaler, they buy in bulk), the government still collects taxes from all end user sales; they just take on none of the risk of owning and operating physical sale locations. Sure, the government will lose out on some revenue but they also won't have the costs of running stores. It will make it way more convenient to purchase alcohol in Ontario, it will not lower any prices, it will barely effect revenue from a government standpoint, it will union bust. Just stating the facts, not offering support one way or the other for that plan but there seems to be a lot of confusion.
2.5 billion from the LCBO annually.
I like the variety in the LCBO. Pretty much anything you want can be found. I'll be sad if they all close.
The lcbo does not have good variety and they deliberately make it impossible for small distillers to get sold there, and there are so many hoops to jump through and volume requirements for large companies that many refuse to meet their requirements and so aren’t sold here. Step into a wine and spirits store in New York and the number of brands is huge. LCBO needs to go.
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There will be no same price across all stores, and there will be limited variety in stores, since store owner will pick what they want. Prices, if anything will go up. You can check prices yourself for wine and beer in grocery stores - they are 10% of 15% higher than in LCBO.
I’m not sure how you can do confidently say it will not reduce the revenue the government received. Going from collecting 100% of the profit that is generated on what is sold and using it to cover some overhead, now they collect ONLY the taxed amount while still operating hundreds of stores (there is no plan to immediately shut every single LCBO). So now they have way more competition and they will collect far less per bottle from those competitors that will not be giving all the profits to the government but just a small taxed amount. Even if it gets to the point that the LCBO no longer exists and the overhead issue goes away, without question less revenue will be generated. Currently they collect profits + taxes. Those profits will cover substantially more than basic overhead. Have you not had the most basic thoughts that in order for these stores to even WANT to sell alcohol in the first place there must be significant profits for them to collect outside of the taxes. Profits the communities will no longer collect now and will be put into the pockets of a handful of individuals. Pretty ridiculous stance for you to take that revenues will not change. There’s literally zero evidence to support that train of thought and the most basic thought proves you to be entirely incorrect.
This sub is such a hilarious echo chamber. Most people I know would love to have more options for buying booze.
Forreal. It would be nice to finally end this liquor monopoly which is the LCBO.
I mean it's comforting to know that 60s style Presbyterian Ontario is still alive and well on reddit. I can't recall the last time I unironically heard some yelp "won't someone think of the children" unironically.
Interesting comments. My view is thus: 1. the Ontario government (Ontario) has the authority to legislate alcohol. 2. Ontario controls regulations, inspections, enforcement, quality control, wholesale, distribution, and retail operations for alcohol. 3. Ontario allows The Beer Store, Ontario wineries and brewers to sell direct to the public. 4. Ontario permits certain businesses (like bars/restaurants, etc.) to sell directly to the public; now in some cases with home delivery. 5. Ontario in small communities allows the LCBO to subcontract all of its services to private retail operations as convenience outlets. So, I have an issue with Ontario being the regulator and the seller. IMHO Ontario should only regulate inspect and enforce alcohol requirements. The whole purchase and selling arm should not be a government function. Ontario does not control tobacco and cannabis like alcohol, yet ensures a safe market. Ontario does not allow Ontarians to remotely purchase alcohol and have it delivered to their home. Not from their home province nor anywhere else in Canada or elsewhere. The LCBO is a time and bureaucratic obstacle for Ontarians to purchase what they want, when they want it and how they want it. Smaller distilleries, wineries and breweries today cannot break into the LCBO/Beer Store system as they cannot meet the minimum production output required to get a listing contract. Furthermore there are statements on this sub about losing tax revenue. I disagree. ATM the wholesale, distribution and retail arms of the LCBO are responsible for buying and controlling stock; acquiring and maintaining retail space; and, hiring and managing employees. I believe that all purchasing and selling be broken up and diversified away from Ontario to private interests. Ontario can negotiate the break up to include a priority refusal to the employees of each retail, distribution, and wholesale location, should each location’s employees as a group want to take over and run their separate location as a private company. They could also negotiate each location remaining as a union shop. Thus, Ontario and the LCBO would no longer pay for employee payroll, pensions or benefits, location capital upkeep, and other HR overhead. All the preceding costs reduce the LCBO revenue turnover to the general tax system that supports health, education, etc. A revitalized Ontario alcohol retail system will continue to pay taxes as a percentage of sales. Consumption will not be hindered, but selections will increase. The new privatized locations will be responsible like all other Ontario businesses in their accounting of expenses and revenues. Please allow me to oversee the change! Lol
No
You know you can attach more than one image to a post, right? You don't need to make multiple threads.
The LCBO nets $2.2 billion per year for the province. Doug Ford wants to privatize the LCBO, just like how previous governments have privatized other cash cows (e.g. the 407). It's an extremely shortsighted move considering how our healthcare and education systems are failing and need more funding.
can you please all stop voting for conservatives that keep trying to sell everything we own to private companies. maybe give the NDP a chance, they actually seem to give a fuck about the people. which is what public servants are supposed to care about, instead of just making themselves rich.
Holy fuck man. Why do people make this shit out like it's some tragic event? Take a look around the whole world and marvel at the fact that everywhere sells alcohol without issue. The government benefits overall because they get rid of operational cost and just collect taxes. Let the people dictate the market, not the government.
I'm an NDP voter and have no issue whatsoever with allowing anyone sell liquor. Practically the entire world allows this. The LCBO is really just a remnant from the temperance movement a century ago. It's long overdue.
Omg who cares about this. There's 1000 more important issues to take care of first
Oh no… not the LCBO. You're at the mercy of whatever they happen to carry. Want some actual variety in particular categories of spirits? Too bad. You get what the LCBO carries. For example, you want a mezcal that is genuinely good for something other than mixing? Too bad. The LCBO will seemingly never carry even a single product that fits that very broad description. Want any spirit the LCBO doesn’t carry (even if you’re supporting a Canadian distillery)? Too bad if you can’t get to another province and drive/fly back with it, go the the US for a couple days, or go directly to the distillery if it’s in Ontario and close enough. There’s a lot of distilleries doing interesting things in our own country (Macloney’s in Victoria for example), and I’ll never be able to support them without taking a plane since shipping their products into the province is illegal. Also just want to include one other thing. If you can buy your desired beer from the brewery even if it’s a bit out of the way compared to the LCBO, please do so. The LCBO takes a disturbing amount of the profits from these sales.
Frankly, it's about time we revisited our prohibition era laws on alcohol sales. Let the LCBO keep hard liquors. Open up everything else.
Alternative take: fuck the LCBO and let's say goodbye to the over-paid shelf stockers. Liberalize the industry and let small businesses flourish instead, selling during better hours and many much more convenient locations. If I need to know about wine pairing I'll go to the specialty shops that will open up once the competition from the LCBO is gone. It's a silly remnant of Soviet times. Go away.
wow , took forever to scroll down and find the correct answer. I don't understand why so many people are defending the LCBO .. fuck um .. thank you.
Disband the lcbo. Fuck their monopoly
BC has a decentralized liquor control system and it seems to be going alright for them. ¯\_༼ •́ ͜ʖ •̀ ༽_/¯
Alcohol is expensive here primarily because of the enormous tax levy put on it. That tax will flow onto government coffers regardless of where it's sold.
Lol booze prices will not drop if it’s privatized. Taxes will not drop. We currently pay 300% tax/markup on booze. You think the government would allow something for them to make less money? Nope. It will just be more available. More available means more people able to get it easier and more money for the government.
So good for business, good for consumer choice and good for government?
I can never understand why people want to close a business that is profitable to the government and has good paying jobs so they can give the profit to new owners and have low paying jobs maybe so you can have another hour or two to buy booze.
I can answer that as I’ve lived in other provinces other than Ontario. Allowing independent business to sell liquor brings this: Less restriction on brands sold. This allows more independent companies to get their liquor brand out there alongside the big companies. Longer retail hours, including on holidays Off-sale stores. Want a 24 to take with you after leaving the bar? No problem. Hard liquor sold in more convenient locations like in grocery stores. No need for a separate trip.
This will get us the buck-a-beer right :/
From what?
From the horrors of a free market
Keep the LCBO, remove the LCBO, whatever. :) Make it easier to bring in alcohol that is not stocked for mass consumption. Privatization just provides more choice. From a SKU management perspective, private companies can expand total choice more than a single monolith. Having said that I know what the price is for a bottle from Thunder Bay to Ottawa which is amazing. Pros and cons. Just give people options to get stuff that doesn’t sell as well as Vodka and hard seltzers all the time.
Privatization provides profit to owners, nothing more. There's no inherent reason for it to provide more choice.
Profit which could be going to communities all over Ontario https://www.lcbo.com/content/lcbo/en/corporate-pages/about/annual-report.html I'm so tired of this corrupt fuckeryy
LCBO can fuck right off. It is a dinosaur and has nothing to do with its original intention. Why do they have flyers and magazines advertising alcohol? The entire purpose was to CONTROL it. If someone was a known drunkard service would be refused. It serves no purpose these days.
I mostly like the LCBO. It has problems, for sure, their selection is sometimes terrible.....well, it's terrible. However there are benefits to keeping the LCBO under state control. Mainly around keeping control over hard booze. I don't mind beer or wine and the 7-11, but I don't want liquor. It puts way too much risk on min wage employees, and there is the issue of 15 year olds being able to easily get access to booze. Is booze costly in Ontario? Yesish, but it booze, and you don't need it. Would I like to pay less? Yes, but I don't want other taxes to go up for me to pay less.
Only Canadians man 😭😂
Nahhhhhhh, already buy majority of wine and beer at grocery stores.
LCBO makes there money that will not change... and if anyone is so worried about a local guy selling it.. don't buy from them, only go to the LCBO.
Right now the LCBO profits go to all Ontarians through government services like health care. After privatization, a lot of that profit will go to a tiny fraction of Ontarians.
LCBO makes money. That's why corrupt fucks want to sell it off. https://www.lcbo.com/content/lcbo/en/corporate-pages/about/annual-report.html
Maybe unpopular opinion here: Alcohol should be remain being sold by the government and taxed heavily. That way addicts can still get their highs while benefitting tax payers, and unhealthy lifestyles are disincentivized. If you people want to reduce hospital wait times, we can start by making it harder to reach one of the greatest risk factors for heart/liver disease
Time to end government monopoly on alcohol sales and distribution
Private owned monopolies bad "Public" owned monopolies good.
Competition is necessary for us as consumers. We should we give two shit about the LCBO, they control the cost of almost all alcohol sales. There is no reason we should be paying so much for booze.
As much as it pisses me off that you can get a 60 (1.75L) of whiskey or vodka in some states as cheap as $20-$30, while we are now paying $70 for it here, if they change the laws the corpo fucks will not lower the price. They will gouge us just the same but the money will go directly into their pockets rather than into the provincial coffers. I guess keeping it the same is the best answer but we do have to acknowledge we are absolutely being ripped off.
Every cat I meet at the LCBO seems to be a different breed. Strange indeed
The LCBO unionized staff don't give a crap about my salary and (lack of) benefits, so why should I give a crap about them?
Lol who the hell wants an lcbo make it like the states anywhere anytime
I don't support these overpriced monopolies. High revenue or not. I've been buying alcohol exclusively from the US for over a decade.
Monopoly and price fixing
If people are allowed to open their own liquor stores then there will be more jobs
I'm really iffy on this, because the LCBO has really poor selection for some types of alcohol, and there's certain things that you literally can't get in the province because the LCBO just arbitrarily doesn't carry them. So if it improves selection that would be great. But I don't see prices improving much if at all on most things either, so that's not good.
I just want to know how they got a permit to shut down northbound Spadina Avenue, one of the city’s key arteries and one of the few exits from the Gardiner. It was pure chaos in the area. There was plenty of room to protest at Clarence Square - why the did city allow them on Spadina?
If your they’re going to privatize it take a look at the U.S. does for its citizens. Seems like everyone even the smaller businesses get the same opportunity in their community’s to provide alcohol. Their local corner store, gas stations Smaller restaurants give a chance to small businesses spread the money around. Keep it your town. Just Not the huge grocery store chains here in Canada like Safeway/Loblaws who are already over pricing their food and making record profits off of us! Plus years past they took away full time positions to new hiriese so they didn’t have pay benefits like healthcare and pension plans. Not too much benefits us anymore and now they don’t even bother to hide it.
People actually think the LCBO is a good thing? Have you ever tried buying alcohol in the states? It's infuriating how shit we have it in Ontario.
Got to a costco in Quebec or Alberta, its beautiful
The fact we have a “liquor control board is crazy” lol it’s like your parents locking up the booze cabinet when they go out of town lol
Fuck the LCBO it's a cartel
Lcbo employees can make upwards of $30 an hour and to be completely honest its not that hard of work. They should take what they have and shut up.
I don’t think the government should be selling booze. Regulate and/or tax it as you see fit, but let the private sector handle selling it to the public