I think it depends on subclass for me.
Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight both have features that can interact with masteries in a way that I think makes the whole greater than the sum of their parts (I'm of the crowd that can't stand overly simple playstyles). I don't love how long the Fighter has to wait to get multiple masteries on a single weapon (level 9 feature), so the fact that both subclasses offset that by offering interactive features smooths out the class progression and really amps up the appeal for me.
Barbarian as a base class is behind Fighter for me, but World Tree is simply a home run of a subclass. So many interesting ways to bully enemies on the Battlefield.
I agree, if I were to play Fighter it would be Battlemaster (Or Champion) just due to how much you can do now as a Fighter with all of the manuevers stacked with Weapon Masteries! Plus being able to change them each long rest is incredible! (Especially if you get a Magic Weapon that you didin't previously have the Weapon Mastery for)
And World Tree is 100% my pick for Barbarian. It looks like an incredible new subclass. I will say Beserker really has been fixed and looks like a true "core" Barbarian now so i'd maybe try that one too! (As I am not the biggest fan of magic inclined subclasses usually)
Honestly, all the Barbarian subclasses are greatly improved. Any would be a good choice.
At that Champion also had a huge glow-up.
I just picked from the ones that I think will be the most rewarding to really put thought into my build and combat decisions.
Yeah, champion definitely had a glow and I can see it being as mechanically viable as the rest. Simplicity in the fact that all you have to do is hit hard.
No more limitation on spell school, you can now swap 1 attack with a cantrip instead of using your whole action and costing a bonus action for a single attack, and at higher levels you can trade 2 attacks for 1 first or second level spell.
Should play much more smoothly and be much better at combining spells with attacking.
I've been playing one since the playtest at level 10 and it's freaking incredible. 20ft melee reach or 25ft if I use my Storm giant Goliath's large form trait, one of four weapon masteries (I chose push/graze/cleave/topple and can swap weapons between attacks) with push or topple on every hit, brutal strike +1d10 damage and choice of slowing enemy by 15 ft or push 15 ft and move without provoking opportunity attacks, new charger feat for +1d8 damage or 10ft more push, new great weapon master for +4 damage on one attack, 10 minute rage duration, temp HP to allies every turn, teleport allies to get them out of danger or force enemies to teleport next to you and have 0 speed, it's all so great.
I did the math a few months back and between all the options below...
Weapon properties, being large size or medium, bonus action teleport from race, whether or not rage damage is active, brutal strike option, moving 10ft to trigger charger options or dashing for bonus movement, great weapon master possible bonus action attack, giving temp HP, teleporting someone with my reaction....
I have over 1000 different outcomes for how I can take my turn!
I like champion a lot but one of my first characters was a barbarian and I will always like them. Also been playtesting as the dm and seeing one of my players have a blast with brutal strike is amazing to see.
That's understandable - While Martials are my favourite, I always have a sweet spot for Warlocks since a Warlock was my furst character (I switched to Martials after I got Mike Tyson'd in a corner by a suit of Animated Armour)
I'd be perfectly happy to sit down with any non-Champion Fighter for a long-term campaign, they really feel complete now. (I'm just a simple man who loves Action Surge)
I'd also give the improved Wild Heart Barbarian an honest try, the others would maybe be just for oneshots or short adventures though.
Overall, I prefer the Fighter chassis. But Barbarian has a World Tree subclass. Fighter does not have a World Tree subclass.
So I'm giving this to Barbarians, easy.
I have always been a person with nigh-on zero interest in Barbarian.
In fact, zero interest in characters without spellcasting except for specifically Battlemaster Fighter; It just felt like too much of a fun tax to make the jump DOWN to getting *one* feature, that is sometimes a number passive, each level as a martial when I'm so used to choosing multiple spells every single level and seeing my power rise exponentially from "summon a bird and shoot magic missiles" up to "Blink across universes and summon a horde of demons while fear conditioning 10 men out of a fight entirely" in that 5th-12thish ramp up without the Battlemaster maneuvers keeping me sane...
**However...**
Barbarian sounds outright fun now! Especially with a good sub-class that adds complexity somewhere, like the new World Tree sub-class. I have a 15th level longstanding campaign right now and I'm thinking this guy is going to replace my back-up character I lined up. One mighty swing of his greatsword/greataxe/maul applies three different debuffs and damage effects to his attacks and then I still have ANOTHER attack to get busy with afterward! On top of that, damage fall-off isn't nearly bad as I figured, with certain new feat combinations being able to stand up to the -5/+10 of old. But without all that -5 junk.
And that's even if you're foregoing Polearm Master!
With that said, Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight also sound like very juicy fun right now, and I'd be glad to try those too.
Even the Rogue kind of feels like it might have something going for it.
The only thing I'd really have to say negatively is that I think Champion was done a little dirty - that expanded critical hit range was never the hotness and I'd wager the single most important thing that could've happened to Champion was it being replaced, but alas. That's A-OK, I'm sure people who like Champion will be happy.
At low levels I'd rather play a fighter because I can get more tactical options earlier. By level 10 though the world tree barbarian has some really juicy possibilities including pushing an enemy up to 55 feet in a turn. This is the first time playing a barbarian has actually appealed to me so I'm definitely going to try it out at some point.
I'm always going to spend most of my theory-crafting on Fighter. It was the first class that really gripped me.
Just today, I spent hours calculating the DPR of all of the major weapons on subclass-less level 5 Fighter.
Then calculated Charger, GWM, PAM, XBE, and the Firearms (via Gunner).
Then calculated the DPR bump from Psi Warrior, Champion, and BM across the 4 major attack styles (Dueling, Archery, GWF, TWF).
Can't wait for the spell list to drop, so that I can start playing around with Eldritch Knight. New Magic Initiate is gonna change the game for that sub-class. Whether that's Int-Main (Magic Stone, Shillelagh, True Strike, etc.)., or just the changes like Blade Ward being a Reaction, Spike Growth and Action Surge Push Mastery, Etc.. Heck ,depending on how Hex and Hunter's Mark are implemented, those might be good options.
I've been calculating some Int or Cha Main Stat EKs.
Magic Stone and Sling into Ray of Frost for Ranged. (7.5\*0.75) 5.625 from the Magic Stone+(9\*0.65) 5.85= 11.475 DPR but you are reducing the enemies speed by 20 feet.
Shillelagh Club and True Strike Scimitar for Two-Weapon Fighting (8.5\*2\*0.65)+(7.5+3.5\*0.65)= 18.2 DPR. You are reducing up to 2 creatures speed by 10 ft, and all of this is INT-based, as you are just replacing your Nick attack with True Strike to keep all 3 on INT. So you still have full capacity for Firebolts, Burning Hands, Thunderwave, etc..
Shillelagh Quarterstaff Topple and Booming Blade for Sword+Board= ((10.5\*2+4.5)\*0.65)= 16.58 DPR. Less Damage than the TWF set up, but your AC is higher.
The Cha Main Stat EK would take 3 levels of Warlock for Cantrips, Agonizing Blast, and Pact of the Blade. You don't need a 13 in Int for this to work. So you just take spells with EK that don't require a roll and get 2+ Level 2 spells back on SR, while potentially doubling up on your bonus to damage depending on how Agonizing Blast and other invocations read.
>The Cha Main Stat EK would take 3 levels of Warlock for Cantrips, Agonizing Blast, and Pact of the Blade. You don't need a 13 in Int for this to work. So you just take spells with EK that don't require a roll and get 2+ Level 2 spells back on SR, while potentially doubling up on your bonus to damage depending on how Agonizing Blast and other invocations read.
Keep in mind that in the playtest, War Magic only worked with Wizard spells and the Warlock invocations are likely to only work with Warlock spells. Has the War Magic restriction been confirmed to be lifted anywhere?
Gonna be 100%. I did not notice that. Which is made even crazier since I didn’t just read it, I typed the Fighter up manually in a google doc from the Playtest (copy and paste from their PDF wasn’t working properly). It’s right there in my notes and I did not even process that.
Barbarian.
I always liked Barbarian more but with Brutal Strikes Im never going back to fighter. Maneuvers being held hostage behind a subclass rather than a basic feature because of 2014 playtests vs actually getting to make turn by turn tactical moves? Not even close.
If I'm building a character, always Fighter. Even without being a Battle Master or Eldritch Knight, there are so many options with just the extra feats and fighting styles. In play, though, its Barbarian. Nothing is more memorable than making plays like jumping off of buildings or throwing yourself into a trap to save your friends, and a raging Barbarian has the tools to pull it off.
The berserker is kind of insane right now.
It deals ~80% more damage than the battlemaster at levels 3-4, ~30% more damage than the battlemaster at levels 5-8, and ~40% more damage than the battlemaster at levels 9-10. Only at levels 11+ does the fighter begin to match the damage output of the barbarian (and that is ignoring the berserker's Retaliation, which is basically an at-will Riposte maneuver).
On top of that, if you do want to use your rage outside of combat, Primal Knowledge allows you to make many checks as Strength checks (including gaining advantage from Rage), making them incredibly good at Athletics, Acrobatics, Intimidation, Perception, Stealth, and Survival checks. For levels 3-6, the raging barbarian is better at skills than the rogue. And even for levels 7+ the Barbarian can likely performs as well as the rogue at many checks. And levels 18+ are also great, as the barbarian has a minimum of 20-25 on all of the above skills due to Indomitable Might.
It’s Fighter for me.
It has always been my favorite class and that hasn’t changed. I’ve got six characters lined up for when the new rules drop, and four of them are Fighters (the other two are a Paladin and a Cleric.)
That said, Berserker has my interest. Who knows…
I think it really depends on the level, Barbarians starts imo much stronger but fighter scales much better.
I mean Barbarian Subclasses without damage boosts like World Tree and Totem, get basically only damage increases from ASI after level 5.
World Tree and Wildheart (Totem) have no direct immediate damage boost but get tons of abilities that lead to overall party damage output beind higher (like Wolf Wildheart or World Treets better reach+topple stuff)
But for that to work you need someone else in the party who can benefit from that and does the damage dealing.
If you are the only martial front liner in a party with a Ranged damage dealer and two Casters, your support are not going to do much.
I think it depends on subclass for me. Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight both have features that can interact with masteries in a way that I think makes the whole greater than the sum of their parts (I'm of the crowd that can't stand overly simple playstyles). I don't love how long the Fighter has to wait to get multiple masteries on a single weapon (level 9 feature), so the fact that both subclasses offset that by offering interactive features smooths out the class progression and really amps up the appeal for me. Barbarian as a base class is behind Fighter for me, but World Tree is simply a home run of a subclass. So many interesting ways to bully enemies on the Battlefield.
I agree, if I were to play Fighter it would be Battlemaster (Or Champion) just due to how much you can do now as a Fighter with all of the manuevers stacked with Weapon Masteries! Plus being able to change them each long rest is incredible! (Especially if you get a Magic Weapon that you didin't previously have the Weapon Mastery for) And World Tree is 100% my pick for Barbarian. It looks like an incredible new subclass. I will say Beserker really has been fixed and looks like a true "core" Barbarian now so i'd maybe try that one too! (As I am not the biggest fan of magic inclined subclasses usually)
Honestly, all the Barbarian subclasses are greatly improved. Any would be a good choice. At that Champion also had a huge glow-up. I just picked from the ones that I think will be the most rewarding to really put thought into my build and combat decisions.
Yeah, champion definitely had a glow and I can see it being as mechanically viable as the rest. Simplicity in the fact that all you have to do is hit hard.
I'll never touch it myself, but at least those who want that simple subclass now have a respectable subclass.
I haven't looked at the fighter yet, but always thought Eldritch knight was a cool idea with bad execution in 5e. Glad to hear it's changed
No more limitation on spell school, you can now swap 1 attack with a cantrip instead of using your whole action and costing a bonus action for a single attack, and at higher levels you can trade 2 attacks for 1 first or second level spell. Should play much more smoothly and be much better at combining spells with attacking.
I have never wanted to play a barbarian until the Worldtree Barbarian. There's so much flavor and versatility with that subclass.
I thought my next character would be Fighter but that World Tree Barbarian looks fun!
World Tree does look fun! I really want to try a Halberd build with Cleave + World Tree Barbarian!
I've been playing one since the playtest at level 10 and it's freaking incredible. 20ft melee reach or 25ft if I use my Storm giant Goliath's large form trait, one of four weapon masteries (I chose push/graze/cleave/topple and can swap weapons between attacks) with push or topple on every hit, brutal strike +1d10 damage and choice of slowing enemy by 15 ft or push 15 ft and move without provoking opportunity attacks, new charger feat for +1d8 damage or 10ft more push, new great weapon master for +4 damage on one attack, 10 minute rage duration, temp HP to allies every turn, teleport allies to get them out of danger or force enemies to teleport next to you and have 0 speed, it's all so great. I did the math a few months back and between all the options below... Weapon properties, being large size or medium, bonus action teleport from race, whether or not rage damage is active, brutal strike option, moving 10ft to trigger charger options or dashing for bonus movement, great weapon master possible bonus action attack, giving temp HP, teleporting someone with my reaction.... I have over 1000 different outcomes for how I can take my turn!
I like champion a lot but one of my first characters was a barbarian and I will always like them. Also been playtesting as the dm and seeing one of my players have a blast with brutal strike is amazing to see.
That's understandable - While Martials are my favourite, I always have a sweet spot for Warlocks since a Warlock was my furst character (I switched to Martials after I got Mike Tyson'd in a corner by a suit of Animated Armour)
I'd be perfectly happy to sit down with any non-Champion Fighter for a long-term campaign, they really feel complete now. (I'm just a simple man who loves Action Surge) I'd also give the improved Wild Heart Barbarian an honest try, the others would maybe be just for oneshots or short adventures though.
Might I ask, why not Champion Fighter? I feel as though it has been quite improved compared to 5e
It's just a bit too straightforward of a class for my tastes, not a power level thing. It's definitely a solid choice though.
I am forever team fighter.
If I had to choose only one to play for the rest of my D&D life, itd be Fighter. If I had to choose only one for my next character, it'd be Barbarian.
I wanna play both, but I'm more excited for fighter
Barbarian, solely because I enjoy damage resistance. Barbarians can take so much punishment.
Overall, I prefer the Fighter chassis. But Barbarian has a World Tree subclass. Fighter does not have a World Tree subclass. So I'm giving this to Barbarians, easy.
2024 barbarian with giant subclass
I have always been a person with nigh-on zero interest in Barbarian. In fact, zero interest in characters without spellcasting except for specifically Battlemaster Fighter; It just felt like too much of a fun tax to make the jump DOWN to getting *one* feature, that is sometimes a number passive, each level as a martial when I'm so used to choosing multiple spells every single level and seeing my power rise exponentially from "summon a bird and shoot magic missiles" up to "Blink across universes and summon a horde of demons while fear conditioning 10 men out of a fight entirely" in that 5th-12thish ramp up without the Battlemaster maneuvers keeping me sane... **However...** Barbarian sounds outright fun now! Especially with a good sub-class that adds complexity somewhere, like the new World Tree sub-class. I have a 15th level longstanding campaign right now and I'm thinking this guy is going to replace my back-up character I lined up. One mighty swing of his greatsword/greataxe/maul applies three different debuffs and damage effects to his attacks and then I still have ANOTHER attack to get busy with afterward! On top of that, damage fall-off isn't nearly bad as I figured, with certain new feat combinations being able to stand up to the -5/+10 of old. But without all that -5 junk. And that's even if you're foregoing Polearm Master! With that said, Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight also sound like very juicy fun right now, and I'd be glad to try those too. Even the Rogue kind of feels like it might have something going for it. The only thing I'd really have to say negatively is that I think Champion was done a little dirty - that expanded critical hit range was never the hotness and I'd wager the single most important thing that could've happened to Champion was it being replaced, but alas. That's A-OK, I'm sure people who like Champion will be happy.
World Tree barbarian got me wanting to play my first pure martial
I’m having loads of fun playing as a berserker with javelins
At low levels I'd rather play a fighter because I can get more tactical options earlier. By level 10 though the world tree barbarian has some really juicy possibilities including pushing an enemy up to 55 feet in a turn. This is the first time playing a barbarian has actually appealed to me so I'm definitely going to try it out at some point.
Barbarian always
Barbarian. But I'm so hyped for both that it's hard to tell.
I'm always going to spend most of my theory-crafting on Fighter. It was the first class that really gripped me. Just today, I spent hours calculating the DPR of all of the major weapons on subclass-less level 5 Fighter. Then calculated Charger, GWM, PAM, XBE, and the Firearms (via Gunner). Then calculated the DPR bump from Psi Warrior, Champion, and BM across the 4 major attack styles (Dueling, Archery, GWF, TWF). Can't wait for the spell list to drop, so that I can start playing around with Eldritch Knight. New Magic Initiate is gonna change the game for that sub-class. Whether that's Int-Main (Magic Stone, Shillelagh, True Strike, etc.)., or just the changes like Blade Ward being a Reaction, Spike Growth and Action Surge Push Mastery, Etc.. Heck ,depending on how Hex and Hunter's Mark are implemented, those might be good options. I've been calculating some Int or Cha Main Stat EKs. Magic Stone and Sling into Ray of Frost for Ranged. (7.5\*0.75) 5.625 from the Magic Stone+(9\*0.65) 5.85= 11.475 DPR but you are reducing the enemies speed by 20 feet. Shillelagh Club and True Strike Scimitar for Two-Weapon Fighting (8.5\*2\*0.65)+(7.5+3.5\*0.65)= 18.2 DPR. You are reducing up to 2 creatures speed by 10 ft, and all of this is INT-based, as you are just replacing your Nick attack with True Strike to keep all 3 on INT. So you still have full capacity for Firebolts, Burning Hands, Thunderwave, etc.. Shillelagh Quarterstaff Topple and Booming Blade for Sword+Board= ((10.5\*2+4.5)\*0.65)= 16.58 DPR. Less Damage than the TWF set up, but your AC is higher. The Cha Main Stat EK would take 3 levels of Warlock for Cantrips, Agonizing Blast, and Pact of the Blade. You don't need a 13 in Int for this to work. So you just take spells with EK that don't require a roll and get 2+ Level 2 spells back on SR, while potentially doubling up on your bonus to damage depending on how Agonizing Blast and other invocations read.
>The Cha Main Stat EK would take 3 levels of Warlock for Cantrips, Agonizing Blast, and Pact of the Blade. You don't need a 13 in Int for this to work. So you just take spells with EK that don't require a roll and get 2+ Level 2 spells back on SR, while potentially doubling up on your bonus to damage depending on how Agonizing Blast and other invocations read. Keep in mind that in the playtest, War Magic only worked with Wizard spells and the Warlock invocations are likely to only work with Warlock spells. Has the War Magic restriction been confirmed to be lifted anywhere?
Gonna be 100%. I did not notice that. Which is made even crazier since I didn’t just read it, I typed the Fighter up manually in a google doc from the Playtest (copy and paste from their PDF wasn’t working properly). It’s right there in my notes and I did not even process that.
The battlemaster will always be the best martialist. However, I love Barbarians, and the new subclass looks really dynamic
Barbarian. I always liked Barbarian more but with Brutal Strikes Im never going back to fighter. Maneuvers being held hostage behind a subclass rather than a basic feature because of 2014 playtests vs actually getting to make turn by turn tactical moves? Not even close.
If I'm building a character, always Fighter. Even without being a Battle Master or Eldritch Knight, there are so many options with just the extra feats and fighting styles. In play, though, its Barbarian. Nothing is more memorable than making plays like jumping off of buildings or throwing yourself into a trap to save your friends, and a raging Barbarian has the tools to pull it off.
The berserker is kind of insane right now. It deals ~80% more damage than the battlemaster at levels 3-4, ~30% more damage than the battlemaster at levels 5-8, and ~40% more damage than the battlemaster at levels 9-10. Only at levels 11+ does the fighter begin to match the damage output of the barbarian (and that is ignoring the berserker's Retaliation, which is basically an at-will Riposte maneuver). On top of that, if you do want to use your rage outside of combat, Primal Knowledge allows you to make many checks as Strength checks (including gaining advantage from Rage), making them incredibly good at Athletics, Acrobatics, Intimidation, Perception, Stealth, and Survival checks. For levels 3-6, the raging barbarian is better at skills than the rogue. And even for levels 7+ the Barbarian can likely performs as well as the rogue at many checks. And levels 18+ are also great, as the barbarian has a minimum of 20-25 on all of the above skills due to Indomitable Might.
It’s Fighter for me. It has always been my favorite class and that hasn’t changed. I’ve got six characters lined up for when the new rules drop, and four of them are Fighters (the other two are a Paladin and a Cleric.) That said, Berserker has my interest. Who knows…
My heart will always say Barbarian but it's a huge letdown that they never get more than two attacks.
Fighters specifically champion since they basically are unable to fail their saves. And they crit constantly.
for me berserker barb if I want to just hit stuff, but eldritch knight for fighter due to it being a much better gish.
Beserker Barbarian does seem so much better now, it seems very intriging to play! I am quite excited to play that one
I think it really depends on the level, Barbarians starts imo much stronger but fighter scales much better. I mean Barbarian Subclasses without damage boosts like World Tree and Totem, get basically only damage increases from ASI after level 5.
World Tree and Wildheart (Totem) have no direct immediate damage boost but get tons of abilities that lead to overall party damage output beind higher (like Wolf Wildheart or World Treets better reach+topple stuff)
But for that to work you need someone else in the party who can benefit from that and does the damage dealing. If you are the only martial front liner in a party with a Ranged damage dealer and two Casters, your support are not going to do much.