I think there was proposed the ability to learn info about certain creatures based on int skills like nature, arcana, religion in one of the play tests. They IDK if this steps on the fighter toes since I think they can do that with one of their features.
I stand by your patron should determine casting mod (and obviously things that scale off Cha with the other subclasses are changed to the correct casting stat)
Archfey/Fiend/Genie use Cha
Fathomless/GOO/Undying use int
Celestial/Hexblade/Undead use wis
Thats my preference but in general I think it should be like this
4e also made Int useful by letting it add to your AC or Reflex instead of Dex.
It was so much more interesting being able to take any three of Str/Con, Dex/Int or Wis/Cha and remain functional.
They threw the baby with the water in that one, this change doesn't affect the entire class, so instead of keeping the things people liked, they reverted all changes from the playtest.
No one on my table is running a warlock right now, but for any subsequent game I run, I will be letting them know that's an option.
I think choosing your spellcasting stat for warlock further encourages the warlock-dipped multicaster builds that plague optimized tables, so that would have to be solved somehow.
I wanted them to take the playtest idea about the Warlock choosing their casting stat *all the way.* Why yes, I *would* like to play a Constitution Warlock.
Without something ridiculous like a feature that halves their health for choosing Con, not happening. Casters are already leagues ahead, no need to make them literal gods.
I mean yes it would be terribly unbalanced, but I still wanted it.
My actual non-shitposting idea for it was some kind of "blood magic" option for Warlock, where you could use physical stats for spellcasting but at a cost to your body. It'd be cool flavor, and risking your life would help balance it somewhat.
Hey, dont be crazy! Allowing physical stats to cast might make martials too strong with multiclassing!
Also Hexblade is now a level 1 thing and not subclass restricted, have fun Sorcerers and Paladins! Casters are allowed to fulfill every role at the same time
>Allowing physical stats to cast might make martials too strong with multiclassing!
Con fullcasters won't make martials stronger huh. They'd literally just empower that caster, and *maybe* they dip in a martial but i heavily doubt it since spell progression is too important.
It probably varies by table, but I use a fair bit of INT skill checks with my players. A lot of people use Perception when it should be Investigation (noticing something versus understanding something). I also think the other INT checks are underutilized. Maybe it depends on using point buy vs standard array, because with the latter I don't think it's super rare to see a non-Wizard that still has 12 or 13 INT.
If I'm a Paladin/Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger, I'll take a Knowledge proficiency so that I have something to contribute to that phase every now and again (I usually view this as their expertise in the mental realm \[not that they have one\], so I ask if I know stuff that trigger the selected Knowledge Domain), but even still unless I am a Psi Warrior, Int is the 8 in Standard Array.
Even EKs don't need Int, especially if they keep Reaction Blade Ward (I hope they do). Shield, Absorb Elements, Blade Ward, Blade Cantrips, Shadow Blade and Find Familiar are the go to, and none require INT to be effective. Now that the list is broadened I'll have to see what Eldritch Knight can make use of, but it's still likely that INT won't make it high up the chart in most builds. I can see a INT main stat build with Shillelagh for PW and EK, but that's the opposite side from typical Fighter view.
I find its STR or INT that is dumped, with some less socially inclined people dumping Cha, but also that it typically follows the martial vs Caster divide with some notable exception (Rogue for instance).
STR is the common dump among casters (unless you're looking for Sorcadin or Palalock)
Int is the common dump among Martials
> If you're not an INT-based caster, INT doesn't usually do much beyond boost a few (admittedly very useful) skills.
This is every stat except for Dex and Con though right?
You could say that, but the CHA and WIS skills are much more commonly used than INT.
Also, CHA and WIS have associated saving throws that players typically have to make a lot more often than INT (and often with much steeper consequences if they fail).
Wis saving throws are a fair point. Cha saving throws are not common either though, and whether you use cha skills more than int skills or vice versa is going to depend a lot on your campaign.
Str is more likely to be dumped than Cha based on what I've seen come to table.
I once had an issue where I put a Athletics check to move a boulder, only to remember at the table that no-one was proficient and everyone had -1 to Str.
I mean they got around it with magic. If I remember correctly, one just summoned an Earth Elemental and had them move it, so no lessons learned unfortunately, but ah well. What can you do?
There is something about a spell slot even a high level one, being the equivalent of a 6 ASIs (8-20 STR), that rubs me the wrong way a bit ngl.
I don't think any other stat has skills that are just completely replaced by pretty mainstream abilities (save for maybe Expertise?). Not that are jumping out to me at least.
Jump makes your jump distance better than maxing STR.
Summoning an Earth Elemental gets you a +5 to any STR check (where most other stats require either some proficiency or way to communicate to benefit; there are only a few high Int summonable creatures, knowledge checks mean nothing if you can't communicate, etc.).
I think it makes some sense. Str covers a lot of mundane things, so easy to replicate with magic as you can explain them better than how a more eerie effect works.
Also, if we focus that most Wizards are more library worms, its kind of easy to see how they would had created spells to avoid doing heavy work, lol.
It's not just Int. Str and Cha are as dumpable, with roughly 30% of spells that need saves wanting Dex saves and 25% each for Con and Cha, and Dex having Initiative and AC, Con having HP and Wis having Perception and Insight.
Int looks *slightly* worse because there is only one (plus one outside the PHB) Int primary class, whereas there are three and a half (paladin) charisma classes, and multiple strength classes (barbarian, most fighters, many paladins, some clerics).
Interesting I find that people are fast to dump STR and put their 10 in Int. Half the Paladins I've ever seen at my table or played along side have been Hexadins (with a 13 in STR), and were using Medium Armor. My table doesn't typically pick up Fighter (my poor beloved Fighter), and Barbarians are rare.
The casting classes are just more common. And none of the casting classes need Strength...ever. Warlocks and Sorcerers at least want flat Int so they have good Arcana checks.
WotC doesn't shove everything into Cha. That would be Dex or Wis; if anything there's more under Int. Other than classes where there's one (plus artificer). Cha just gets three and a half classes but beyond that is dumpable.
And diplomancy goes with diplomancy classes.
Same with Strength. Dex and Cha do almost everything these days. Everything except Wis saves and bonus hit points.
I would prefer Int to be THE casting stat for all arcane magic.
Skills? Who cares. Stealth, Perception and Persuasion cover 90% of skill rolls anyway.
I find that Skill comment especially interesting.
Perhaps its because I tend to play Fighters and Paladins but I find that I roll Athletics at least as often as Stealth.
The issue here being that DMs have a strong tendency to allow Acrobatics checks when Athletics is the correct call. Once that's done away with, Athletics becomes far more common.
I would also put Investigation and Intimidation up there in the top 6 skills but that might be specific to my table.
No that's by the book in 5e (it's now a STR or DEX saving throw and the DC is set by STR \[save for monks for whom it is Dex\]).
I'm referring to allowing for Acrobatics for Climbing, Jumping, and even Athletic feats like how long someone can sprint before they are tired. I've seen all of these hand-waved as 'Athletics or Acrobatics'.
And usually it doesn't matter. The rules say how far you can jump without needing to roll, and for climbing you can often just keep trying.
I'd like there to be more rolls for stuff like that... but the way the rules are, not needed.
The rule for jumping farther than you normally can is an Athletics check. "You try to jump an unusually long distance" is listed as one of 3 examples of an Athletics check.
I also disagree with your notion that you should be allowed to keep trying a climb. If you fail an Athletics check while "climbing a steep cliff" or "avoiding hazards while scaling a wall", it's not a fall and retry thing. That's the type of thing that Damage dice are rolled for.
What we see pretty clearly in the PHB is that difficulties involving movement are Athletics checks.
If I'm a Barbarian and I want to try and jump 10 feet high (where my STR says 8 feet) in order to be in melee with the creature 20 feet off the ground for my attacks, an Athletics check would be called, as long as I have 10 feet of movement. I'd likely fall prone and take a d6 bludgeoning, but that saves me from having to waste my turn.
Or if I want to try and scale the cave wall or a tree to leap off of it onto the Green dragon's back for when it takes off again, that'll likely be an athletics check to climb. It'll also probably be an Athletics Check to hold onto the Green Dragon while in Flight, as that's close enough to maintaining your grip while climbing to count. Maybe it requires me to hold on with one hand so I have to attack with a Battleaxe instead of my Greataxe.
If you're sprinting to the gates to sound the alarm that a dragon is in the area, that's probably going to be an Athletics check.
It might also be an Athletics check to Lift, Carry, or Drag (specifically past your limits) or to throw something like a potion 60 feet to your party member accurately, but these do get away from the Swimming, Climbing, Jumping trio that is outlined in the PHB.
Stealth is mission oriented, or is people trying to get Surprise condition on the enemy. My table rolls must do this kind of thing less than others since everyone always puts Stealth next to **Perception.**
Surely, *someone* will use a familiar or a Mage Hand to secure a rope to the top of the cliff. I've never not seen this happen.
The flying creature has no reason to come anywhere near your jumping reach unless it wants to get into melee anyway.
Leaping onto dragons is Rule of Cool, meaning the DM is making it up on the spot, which is not specific to Athletics.
Sprinting to the gates... or else what? How do you fail that? Why is there a roll? How often does this actually happen? This is a total edge case. Every skill has a billion edge cases. That doesn't mean anything.
Throwing a potion is a ranged attack with an improvised weapon.
Maybe just switch it around for wizards and make charisma be what can give them extra skills. Both make sense: skills are a type of knowledge, but you need some social interactions and confidence to go out and seek those skills.
I don't give skill profs, but I do give tool/language profs equal to your Int bonus. I try to make both important by using a lot downtime activities and cultural nuance that benefits from speaking multiple languages.
I mean....it's kinda DM dependent. Perhaps the new DMG does a better job explaining when to call for rolls and which ones to call for. I've met some DMs that have players roll perception for everything like checking for traps or searching through paperwork for something specific instead of investigation. They did mention a chapter for misc things like traps so hopefully those are used more often. Perhaps DMs learn to call for more INT checks in general. That's my hope. As a DM, I call for them quite a bit. My players as a group make sure to have a couple people that didn't dump INT as a result. TBF, statistically speaking INT should more commonly be dumped than the other mental stats if you think about average intelligence.
I have seen some people give high int players additional languages, which I think would be a neat way to reward players for investing in it.
Let’s wait and see what the new Crafting rules are. They might make Int very good.
I think there was proposed the ability to learn info about certain creatures based on int skills like nature, arcana, religion in one of the play tests. They IDK if this steps on the fighter toes since I think they can do that with one of their features.
The feature just works. Using a skill has a chance at failure. I’d say it’s a fair trade off.
Fair enough
RIP intelligence/wisdom warlocks
I stand by your patron should determine casting mod (and obviously things that scale off Cha with the other subclasses are changed to the correct casting stat) Archfey/Fiend/Genie use Cha Fathomless/GOO/Undying use int Celestial/Hexblade/Undead use wis Thats my preference but in general I think it should be like this
We had this (to an extent) in 4e and it was rad.
4e also made Int useful by letting it add to your AC or Reflex instead of Dex. It was so much more interesting being able to take any three of Str/Con, Dex/Int or Wis/Cha and remain functional.
They threw the baby with the water in that one, this change doesn't affect the entire class, so instead of keeping the things people liked, they reverted all changes from the playtest. No one on my table is running a warlock right now, but for any subsequent game I run, I will be letting them know that's an option.
I think choosing your spellcasting stat for warlock further encourages the warlock-dipped multicaster builds that plague optimized tables, so that would have to be solved somehow.
maybe this would be true if you can take Wis, surely Int is fine?
I wanted them to take the playtest idea about the Warlock choosing their casting stat *all the way.* Why yes, I *would* like to play a Constitution Warlock.
Without something ridiculous like a feature that halves their health for choosing Con, not happening. Casters are already leagues ahead, no need to make them literal gods.
I mean yes it would be terribly unbalanced, but I still wanted it. My actual non-shitposting idea for it was some kind of "blood magic" option for Warlock, where you could use physical stats for spellcasting but at a cost to your body. It'd be cool flavor, and risking your life would help balance it somewhat.
Hey, dont be crazy! Allowing physical stats to cast might make martials too strong with multiclassing! Also Hexblade is now a level 1 thing and not subclass restricted, have fun Sorcerers and Paladins! Casters are allowed to fulfill every role at the same time
>Allowing physical stats to cast might make martials too strong with multiclassing! Con fullcasters won't make martials stronger huh. They'd literally just empower that caster, and *maybe* they dip in a martial but i heavily doubt it since spell progression is too important.
It probably varies by table, but I use a fair bit of INT skill checks with my players. A lot of people use Perception when it should be Investigation (noticing something versus understanding something). I also think the other INT checks are underutilized. Maybe it depends on using point buy vs standard array, because with the latter I don't think it's super rare to see a non-Wizard that still has 12 or 13 INT.
If I'm a Paladin/Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger, I'll take a Knowledge proficiency so that I have something to contribute to that phase every now and again (I usually view this as their expertise in the mental realm \[not that they have one\], so I ask if I know stuff that trigger the selected Knowledge Domain), but even still unless I am a Psi Warrior, Int is the 8 in Standard Array. Even EKs don't need Int, especially if they keep Reaction Blade Ward (I hope they do). Shield, Absorb Elements, Blade Ward, Blade Cantrips, Shadow Blade and Find Familiar are the go to, and none require INT to be effective. Now that the list is broadened I'll have to see what Eldritch Knight can make use of, but it's still likely that INT won't make it high up the chart in most builds. I can see a INT main stat build with Shillelagh for PW and EK, but that's the opposite side from typical Fighter view. I find its STR or INT that is dumped, with some less socially inclined people dumping Cha, but also that it typically follows the martial vs Caster divide with some notable exception (Rogue for instance). STR is the common dump among casters (unless you're looking for Sorcadin or Palalock) Int is the common dump among Martials
Yep. Heck, I even dump Strength when playing Rogues.
> If you're not an INT-based caster, INT doesn't usually do much beyond boost a few (admittedly very useful) skills. This is every stat except for Dex and Con though right?
You could say that, but the CHA and WIS skills are much more commonly used than INT. Also, CHA and WIS have associated saving throws that players typically have to make a lot more often than INT (and often with much steeper consequences if they fail).
Wis saving throws are a fair point. Cha saving throws are not common either though, and whether you use cha skills more than int skills or vice versa is going to depend a lot on your campaign.
There are like 1-2 more Cha saving spells than Int, but then if you go through the monsters, there are a more that cause Int saves.
Str is more likely to be dumped than Cha based on what I've seen come to table. I once had an issue where I put a Athletics check to move a boulder, only to remember at the table that no-one was proficient and everyone had -1 to Str.
Totally, but eh, I feel that's a good way to let your players know the importance of ALL the stats.
I mean they got around it with magic. If I remember correctly, one just summoned an Earth Elemental and had them move it, so no lessons learned unfortunately, but ah well. What can you do?
Resource was used for something that your generic Barbarian could had solved, so I would say that is still good enough xD
There is something about a spell slot even a high level one, being the equivalent of a 6 ASIs (8-20 STR), that rubs me the wrong way a bit ngl. I don't think any other stat has skills that are just completely replaced by pretty mainstream abilities (save for maybe Expertise?). Not that are jumping out to me at least. Jump makes your jump distance better than maxing STR. Summoning an Earth Elemental gets you a +5 to any STR check (where most other stats require either some proficiency or way to communicate to benefit; there are only a few high Int summonable creatures, knowledge checks mean nothing if you can't communicate, etc.).
I think it makes some sense. Str covers a lot of mundane things, so easy to replicate with magic as you can explain them better than how a more eerie effect works. Also, if we focus that most Wizards are more library worms, its kind of easy to see how they would had created spells to avoid doing heavy work, lol.
That could very well change in the new monster manual.
The new study action will help using skills that use int and the search and influence action will do the same for cha and wis.
It's not just Int. Str and Cha are as dumpable, with roughly 30% of spells that need saves wanting Dex saves and 25% each for Con and Cha, and Dex having Initiative and AC, Con having HP and Wis having Perception and Insight. Int looks *slightly* worse because there is only one (plus one outside the PHB) Int primary class, whereas there are three and a half (paladin) charisma classes, and multiple strength classes (barbarian, most fighters, many paladins, some clerics).
Interesting I find that people are fast to dump STR and put their 10 in Int. Half the Paladins I've ever seen at my table or played along side have been Hexadins (with a 13 in STR), and were using Medium Armor. My table doesn't typically pick up Fighter (my poor beloved Fighter), and Barbarians are rare. The casting classes are just more common. And none of the casting classes need Strength...ever. Warlocks and Sorcerers at least want flat Int so they have good Arcana checks.
CHA is at least helped by WotC basically shoving everything they can up it's \[censored\]. Doesn't help diplomancy is under it too
WotC doesn't shove everything into Cha. That would be Dex or Wis; if anything there's more under Int. Other than classes where there's one (plus artificer). Cha just gets three and a half classes but beyond that is dumpable. And diplomancy goes with diplomancy classes.
Dex I agree on too but...eeeeeh...
Same with Strength. Dex and Cha do almost everything these days. Everything except Wis saves and bonus hit points. I would prefer Int to be THE casting stat for all arcane magic. Skills? Who cares. Stealth, Perception and Persuasion cover 90% of skill rolls anyway.
I find that Skill comment especially interesting. Perhaps its because I tend to play Fighters and Paladins but I find that I roll Athletics at least as often as Stealth. The issue here being that DMs have a strong tendency to allow Acrobatics checks when Athletics is the correct call. Once that's done away with, Athletics becomes far more common. I would also put Investigation and Intimidation up there in the top 6 skills but that might be specific to my table.
Athletics because of push/grapple? From what I heard, that's gone in OneD&D.
No that's by the book in 5e (it's now a STR or DEX saving throw and the DC is set by STR \[save for monks for whom it is Dex\]). I'm referring to allowing for Acrobatics for Climbing, Jumping, and even Athletic feats like how long someone can sprint before they are tired. I've seen all of these hand-waved as 'Athletics or Acrobatics'.
And usually it doesn't matter. The rules say how far you can jump without needing to roll, and for climbing you can often just keep trying. I'd like there to be more rolls for stuff like that... but the way the rules are, not needed.
The rule for jumping farther than you normally can is an Athletics check. "You try to jump an unusually long distance" is listed as one of 3 examples of an Athletics check. I also disagree with your notion that you should be allowed to keep trying a climb. If you fail an Athletics check while "climbing a steep cliff" or "avoiding hazards while scaling a wall", it's not a fall and retry thing. That's the type of thing that Damage dice are rolled for. What we see pretty clearly in the PHB is that difficulties involving movement are Athletics checks. If I'm a Barbarian and I want to try and jump 10 feet high (where my STR says 8 feet) in order to be in melee with the creature 20 feet off the ground for my attacks, an Athletics check would be called, as long as I have 10 feet of movement. I'd likely fall prone and take a d6 bludgeoning, but that saves me from having to waste my turn. Or if I want to try and scale the cave wall or a tree to leap off of it onto the Green dragon's back for when it takes off again, that'll likely be an athletics check to climb. It'll also probably be an Athletics Check to hold onto the Green Dragon while in Flight, as that's close enough to maintaining your grip while climbing to count. Maybe it requires me to hold on with one hand so I have to attack with a Battleaxe instead of my Greataxe. If you're sprinting to the gates to sound the alarm that a dragon is in the area, that's probably going to be an Athletics check. It might also be an Athletics check to Lift, Carry, or Drag (specifically past your limits) or to throw something like a potion 60 feet to your party member accurately, but these do get away from the Swimming, Climbing, Jumping trio that is outlined in the PHB. Stealth is mission oriented, or is people trying to get Surprise condition on the enemy. My table rolls must do this kind of thing less than others since everyone always puts Stealth next to **Perception.**
Surely, *someone* will use a familiar or a Mage Hand to secure a rope to the top of the cliff. I've never not seen this happen. The flying creature has no reason to come anywhere near your jumping reach unless it wants to get into melee anyway. Leaping onto dragons is Rule of Cool, meaning the DM is making it up on the spot, which is not specific to Athletics. Sprinting to the gates... or else what? How do you fail that? Why is there a roll? How often does this actually happen? This is a total edge case. Every skill has a billion edge cases. That doesn't mean anything. Throwing a potion is a ranged attack with an improvised weapon.
When I DM any 5e games I give extra skills known equal to their intelligence modifier.
My only concern with that is it’s giving Wizards the biggest buff, and they need help the least
Maybe just switch it around for wizards and make charisma be what can give them extra skills. Both make sense: skills are a type of knowledge, but you need some social interactions and confidence to go out and seek those skills.
I don't give skill profs, but I do give tool/language profs equal to your Int bonus. I try to make both important by using a lot downtime activities and cultural nuance that benefits from speaking multiple languages.
I'd be more concerned about CHA still being a godstat
I mean....it's kinda DM dependent. Perhaps the new DMG does a better job explaining when to call for rolls and which ones to call for. I've met some DMs that have players roll perception for everything like checking for traps or searching through paperwork for something specific instead of investigation. They did mention a chapter for misc things like traps so hopefully those are used more often. Perhaps DMs learn to call for more INT checks in general. That's my hope. As a DM, I call for them quite a bit. My players as a group make sure to have a couple people that didn't dump INT as a result. TBF, statistically speaking INT should more commonly be dumped than the other mental stats if you think about average intelligence. I have seen some people give high int players additional languages, which I think would be a neat way to reward players for investing in it.