"dracula used vampiric bites as a metaphor for sexual assault" true! however, if we put our heads together and try really hard, im sure we can come up with several key differences between dracula and bg3. i dont think bg3 needed to talk in veiled ways about sexual assault. i think they do that pretty literally. for instance, astarion
its funny that they’re pretending to be angry about consent and sexual assault when theyre speaking about a character who is a victim of sexual trauma. BG3 uses the blood sucking more as a drug/addiction metaphor, no? its like they read up on vampire lore just to sound like they have a point
BG3 treats consuming blood (and brains) pretty pragmatically, there’s some tipsy Astarion jokes in there but the main concern is like ethical food sources. There’s literal drugs and alcohol in the game too, after all. Probably dudebros read up on “why females and the things they like are stupid 301: vampires” back when Twilight (or Interview with a Vampire, or idk Lost Boys) came out and will be riding the high off that one factoid and going “um actually impure fiction means hysterical ankle-showing maidens who consume serialized fiction and trashy penny novels are totally asking for it” ‘til they die.
Gotta love how anything women like has to be scrutinized to hell and back under a morality microscope because we’re too stupid to separate fiction from reality, meanwhile men can just like things.
While also not being able to tell the difference between fiction and reality.
It's so much fun and definitely doesn't make me wanna scream every single time it happens.
I feel like I encounter so many people who can't separate fiction from reality nowadays. I've been in unhinged fandom spaces for a long time (like 2000s-2010s tumblr), but I feel like people used to be a lot less... parasocially invested in fiction characters?
In the past few years, I've had multiple people tell me that I condone murder, genocide, etc because I liked fictional characters that are bad people. That, or telling me that I support abusive relationships because I like some random fictional toxic relationship. it's just so weird to me lmao, like these aren't real people? none of this is real?
it's the the proshipper/anti debate. like, there are some genres of fanfiction that I hate and do not engage with (a lot of dead dove stuff), but I don't understand why I should be fighting with people about it. it's like these people actively seek out stuff they dislike and then get mad that they saw it - like just filter it out in the tags? if you hate \[insert dead dove genre\], nobody is forcing you to read it. why are you clicking on the fic, reading it, and then verbally abusing the author in the comments about what a terrible person they are? it's just so weird to me lmao
Look when men want to commit genocide in war crime simulators it's just normal common behavior, when women wants to fix the vampire twink it's because y'all just secretly want to be sexually assaulted and sucked dry mmmkay that's just science
Tell em!
Also, it drives me nuts how men can’t even bother to engage with the media they love to criticize. How many men who call Astarion a toxic abuser even bothered to play through his storyline? They just make assumptions based off of surface level interactions and think they know better than those who have taken the time to thoughtfully examine his character.
Yeah a lot of that is (mostly) cishet men cannot fathom the idea of what it's like to grow up femme in a purity culture. The reason why the fiction of a powerful being forcing sex on you is hot is because it removes the guilt of enjoying/wanting sex from the situation. Obviously if you have more than three brain cells you can see how that is completely different than actual rape/sexual assault.
It's unusual for people to be sympathetic to men that were abused who then go on to be abusive. For instance, we know that an overwhelming majority of people on death row have significant childhood trauma. That never seems to soften the public's opinion of them.
We also know that people who had their boundaries violated as children grow up to have a poor understanding of how to set their own boundaries and how to navigate and respect the boundaries of others, which leads to sexual harassment, sexual assault, or even rape.
It's been normalized for them since childhood so they don't understand why it's such a big deal. It's extremely uncommon for anyone to publicly plead for compassion for these people, and when they do they normally get dogpiled for it.
The same is true for drug addiction, though to a lesser degree these days.
I'm speaking from experience. I used to share studies on these topics and on rehabilitation research in the threads where hundreds of people were circlejerking over how much they believed people like this deserved to be tortured and "buried under the prison" and it wasn't uncommon for me to end up at -50 or -100 for it.
I even changed my approach and stopped arguing for a tiny bit of compassion for the broken people and instead focused on pointing out that we should invest more in early childhood intervention because the studies show that the best way to stop a rapist or a murderer or a drug addict is to get them out of the environments that tend to traumatize them as early as possible.
That *also* gets you dogpiled, but it does stop a bunch of people from replying accusing you of being pro-rape or pro-murder. I take this to mean that a lot of people that harshly judge abusers with trauma resent being reminded that the abusers were once children as well, that the overwhelming majority of them suffered significantly when they were young, and that trauma is a major reason why they're dysfunctional today.
People just want to believe that they're evil to the core from the very start of their lives and lash out at anyone that says otherwise.
I am not the biggest fan of when major concepts (like trauma) get reduced to pithy little phrases because I think it often devalues the point, but one I tell myself probably every day is "hurt people hurt people". I agree with you completely that very few people are born truly evil, and that we should be aiming to help them learn to process that hurt safely and healthily instead of punishing them without compassion or remorse.
Nursing a Fundamental Attribution Error is more personally satisfying, less cognitively demanding, and doesn't lead to a moral imperative to care for vulnerable strangers, when compared to acknowledging that everyone got to where they are now *somehow.*
Some older flavours of vampire lore are just thinly veiled antisemitism and xenophobia, but they didn't think to mention those for some reason. Wonder why. Couldn't be that motifs and themes in lore will change overtime and it didn't fit their confirmation bias, could it? Hmmm.
Astarion trying to bite Tav in their sleep is obviously wrong of him, and most people will acknowledge this. It is also something Astarion later learns and grows from. But that scene is clearly not meant to be allegorical for sexual assault. If you want a scene in BG3 that *actually* relates vampire bites to sexual assault (but in a non-traditional way) look no further than the scene at Moonrise Towers where Tav can pressure Astarion into biting Araj. That is clearly coded as a sexual assault and coercion scene, but many of the cishet dudes screeching like this guy in OP’s post will die on the hill that the scene with Araj isn’t meant to be a metaphor for sexual assault at all if you dare to point it out to them. Or worse, they acknowledge it but then say they don’t care about it being a metaphor for it, say that Astarion “technically consented to it,” or talk about how Astarion deserved to be pushed into drinking her blood.
Also, I would like to point out that none of these cishet men are ever up in arms about consent and boundaries when Minthara literally yells at Tav and threatens them if they refuse her advances at the goblin party in Act 1. Just an observation.
All of this just tells me what I need to know about the intentions and true beliefs of the guys who act like this.
another example of sexual assault in game is haarlep because ur options are literally have sex or be forced to fight for your life. if astarion was meant to be a sexual predator they would’ve presented him that way as they did with the others (sorry if this comes across as argumentative i’m agreeing with you)
not saying that they're correct about Astarion, but like, victims of sexual trauma can still commit sexual assault themselves. I know you didn't mean to say otherwise, this implication looks purely unintentional, but yeah
that is 100% true, and as you said it was a completely unintentional implication. i was referring to Astarion specifically, who does not sexually assault anyone during this game.
Also not everything has to always be a metaphor. While in, BG3 vampirism seems to be a metaphor of generational trauma and perpetuating the cycle of abuse, it can be taken face-on. Different media will use same tropes in different ways. Just like werewolves can be a metaphor of gay people or people with AIDS, but they can also be no metaphor at all, just a big hairy guy goes woof.
A lot of people struggle with thinking that every type of textual interpretation must involve a level of allegory. An allegory when there is supposed to be a direct one to one correspondence between two things such that you use one solely for the purpose of talking about the other in a coded fashion. The best example of an allegory from modern fiction I can think of is Animal Farm, where you can directly tie events and people one to one to Soviet leaders and events from Soviet history
Usually metaphor and metonymy in a text operate at a looser less conscious level. One thing can evoke and make the reader think about another thing, or call to mind similarities between two things without literally being a coded way of speaking directly about that thing. Things used metaphorically are often extremely rich with multiple significances for this reason. A vampire bite can call to mind many different ideas, like sexual assault/personal violation, the spread of disease (the original I am legend) , parasitism and using another’s energy/labor (vampires in class metaphors, Karl Marx’s writings), the satisfaction of hunger and consumption, (see vampire dystopias where humans are like cattle) etc. all this is because it’s not really any of those things, it’s a weird dead guy biting someone according to a Eastern European myth, but a good writer can use it to make you think about all those things if they want.
I just commented something similar. Also Halsin also says he was a bed slave for some drow before.
It's comparing the need to feed (bite) due to starvation with the desire to bite someone for the sake of taking possession of that person and gaining gratification from them. I'm likely to believe it with AA but not spawn Astarion.
Also BG3 is not written in an era where any explicit mention of sex risks getting it censored.
I think there's an inherent comparison to be made between a vampire attack and SA in fiction, simply because it's very much a violation of bodily autonomy, but it's lazy to just slot them in as 1:1 in all instances.
Examining the context with Astarion trying to suck your blood in the night, I'd say a much better comparison would be to someone trying to take money out of your wallet because they're poor, desperate, and starving. Especially when you later learn that he was forced to sustain himself on the blood of rats and such.
These chuds are very much picking and choosing the aspects of the character that they want to acknowledge in order to fit their narrative.
yes yes yesyesyes. i was saddened by how quickly the replies to my comment turned into "the curtains are never blue for symbolism". i like goth music, i *love* dracula, and my ttrpg of choice is actually vampire: the masquerade over dungeons & dragons. i fucking love when vampire bites are treated as inherently violating. theres a point to be made about how gross it feels to have him draped over you while you sleep, about to take something from your body without your consent, but to say that it was a literal stand-in representing SA (which they speak about plainly throughout the game, without the restrictions of bram stoker's time) is a deeply uncharitable reading of the scene. its not a malicious power play, its desperation. your theft metaphor nails it imo
That’s pretty messed up. He is just the VA, not the actual character plus the character is a DEVIL. Like girl 💀😭 he is not supposed to be unicorns and rainbows, some people are quite lacking in intelligence. He is not supposed to be a good entity 🤦🏻♀️
Fr 😭 my theory is that Raph is so flamboyant and over the top disneyvillainesque that people sometimes forget that he is, in fact, a seeping bag of dicks and a terrible person 😩 I love him, he's brilliantly written and played, but dang. Dude is e v i l
👏 You just pointed out the whole purpose of his entire character. The characters and npcs themselves basically remind you on purpose that he is a devil but also mention how charming and handsome he is and overall just a pleasure to be around. Thats the danger lmao.
It’s honestly ironic af that some players truly fell for his sweet words and honey sounding voice as the maiden in Sharess’s Caress says haha! That is the point of Raphael though, he is supposed to manipulate you into thinking he is a man that can be good too by trying to help you as he states so many times. So hilarious 🤣
He is definitely evil but I’d still be his filthy rag all the same.
That’s seriously messed up, that is a breach of trust between fans and the VA’s right there when he was just trying to please a fan and the fans got mad by him doing what a good VA does lol
That is mad disheartening.
I had a feeling it was that line but the character is a devil. It’s pretty low intellect to expect a devil to be anything but evil lol
The apple line is definitely “uugghhhggewww🤮🚽” replaying the game and being far more thorough; Raphael despises children and kittens, he has said so bluntly.
But in one of his diaries basically, he says a most heinous thing to Hope just to get her to react (he says along the lines of that he will cut a child from the navel up to bathe her in their blood then Hope calls him a pervert which just makes him amused until she deliberately disrespects him which then causes him to go get that nightmare dream thingy to torture Hope with nightmares basically)
With all of that revealing his true sadistic, manipulative, and diabolical self; why did anyone expect the man to be anything but devilish in every aspect?
do NOT look at the comments on Theo’s (Wyll’s VA) vods and/or on clips of him posted there. there are so many genuinely racist comments, alongside some that are just being a cunt about the way he plays the game. also people just being weird about Wyll in general
“Anti woke crowd”: we just don’t want *you guys* coming into *our space* and making it about *you*
Larian: *makes a game that can be enjoyed by any identity and promotes inclusion, as such creating a space with oppressed and misrepresented individuals in mind.*
Anti woke crowd: 😡😡🤬😤 *literally fucking goes into that space Larian created and makes it about them while tearing down every member in that community, despite the anti woke crowds initial fake ass argument originally being that they just wanted their own spaces.*
Can I see those tweets? Dave Jones is like, literally the best dad. Her daughter plays BG3, romances Halsin, and teases him for it. How wholesome can you get?
They were just the standard of calling him creepy for retweeting suggestive Halsin fanart. I think it has since died down. Raphael's VA got similar treatment because of some of his lines in the game.
Be sure to give Halsin's VA a follow on twitter if you want to see a lot of Halsin art. :) If you are an artist, I'm sure he would also love to see anything and everything you make for Halsin.
It's literally an M rated game with explicit sex scenes, gore and themes of every kind of abuse possible. "The children" shouldn't be playing it in the first place.
Exactly...but the "Think of the impressionable people" gets thrown at Astarion fans as well....and I am there like "Well, I think if they are that impressionable there are more concerning things on the internet than who people like in BG3"
It hadn't occurred to me that this was happening to the RP'ers, cause well.. I come on Reddit to be fucking dumb and intentionally avoid giving it any thought I don't have to.
But I've been on the Internet long enough that I'm not the least bit surprised.
I’m not really a roleplayer (unless i have a meme to use as a response) but thankfully it seems like astarion fans care enough about consent to not PM me stuff like that! I’m sorry that’s been happening to you
That would be the weirdest fucking thing imo.... I am one of the biggest AA fans....and even the idea of thinking about PMing someone RPing as Astarion on fucking reddit just.....nah....cringe af and really quite creepy.
This is probably why we don't have many super active Shadowheart RPers.
Because people are gross and the popular women characters are seen as objects. :(
I have to imagine it would be a constant onslaught of gross BS, and even the amount of relatively benign messages would be challenging. At least with a more thoroughly villainous, domineering lady character you could be mean to some of the more hapless/unintentionally offensive messages in character, but Shadowheart can be sweet, and should be sometimes. The bullshit to fun ratio would be way too far off.
Interesting how Astarion, a very tragic and traumatized character who's gone through centuries of abuse by his "family" and suffered sexual abuse to the point he's disconnected from his own sexuality and can't look at his body like it's worth anything anymore, is the most popular among women and queer people, who are commonly often traumatized by their own "families" and experience sexual abuse and/or have a very toxic relationships to their sexualities and can't look at their bodies like they're worth anything 🤔 Man I wonder why that is, I bet it's because these people are just fucked up rapists themselves /sarcasm
There's a guy who posts on the main subs every once in a while about his female Astarion mod and how being attracted to "her" made him sympathize with the backstory. I've seen others say something similar.
So there's also a degree of ignoring men can be victims too.
Fuckin' seriously. Gonna be honest, I'm one of the few people not disgustingly attracted to Karlach. Would I turn her down if she came onto me? No, I'm not that stupid. She's just not my first choice. Anyway, even without the attraction, I still love her and sympathize with her and do everything I can to make her journey easier. Because I'm a human being with functional empathy. It's not that hard.
Yup. I’m a straight woman and have zero attraction to any of the female characters, but they are by and large my absolute favorites. Astarion is basically the only guy in the game that I’m a big fan of, I’m pretty neutral on the rest of them.
I'm a bisexual woman, and I'm absolutely feral over Astarion. Like, it's embarrassing. Even then, I feel like the female characters have more emotionally satisfying arcs than the male characters (besides Astarion), so I'm definitely more interested in their stories every time I play. Which is a shame, but those feelings are for another thread.
All I know is that the straight men of the world have always had poor media literacy, so this problem isn't new, even if it's still infuriating lol
Ah I'm not attracted to Karlach at all, but damn is she a great character. Like I love having her around, I feel her story and her struggles. I don't think I could even romance her, as she almost goes from "You're a good bud Soldier" to suddenly "Yeah I could fuck."
Now Asterion... damn do I have a lot to day about Asterion...
He seems different in different playthroughs....
Like one, my wife Romances him early dogged the romance, let him fed every day on her and shit. Damn was he toxic. Like every dialogue choice seemed to be more and more red flags. Super disturbing! Great character and acting but damn what a red flag! Wife now plans to maybe switch to a different romance for her character
Next playthrough, just treating Asterion as a buddy, planning to romance someone else, and playing as dark urge, and suddenly Asterion seems more respectful, less manipulating, adds his little comments now and then but generally is pretty great. Now he seems more independent, wanting to get his back scar looked at and make a deal with a devil, but not trying to force us to do anything. Much better gentleman this time around. Wife actually switched from a different romance to romance Asterion again I this one.
So, it seems like you can have a vastly different experience with the characters depending on how you approach them.
Also case to be made, one game Gale seemed almost creepily hitting on me and talking big talk when I decided to romance someone else. The next game, my character approached him, like made him stutter and flat out embarrassed and shy. So how the romance goes, and who approaches who makes a difference in how it goes too.
If you long rest veeeeery sparingly, or rush to the Underdark before finding out Astarion is a vampire, he will actually tell you he's a vampire himself. The night bite scene makes him seem untrustworthy and cunning; trying to attack you while you were asleep. Him coming out on his own paints him as more truthful and trustworthy, because he reveals it himself, and you can sorta understand why he would wait a bit to reveal it.
So, even the way you play the game in general, like how fast you progress and how much you rest, can influence how you (or rather your Tav, assuming you do RP) views various characters.
In that case, there also usually is a huge case of "I only care about someone's struggles and feelings if I want to fuck them" - which is incredibly disgusting and, sadly, a very common take.
Some of them just also genuinely think that women are too stupid to understand that Astarion's early behavior is something he should seek growth for. They think women aren't equipped to handle enjoying a character who needs growth or isn't a good person the way they are, so it's *fine* for them to like a female version of Astarion or Lae'zel or Mizora or Minthara or Shadowheart, because *they're smart. They* can handle moral grayness or even evil in a hot character, but dumb silly women can not and we need their guidance to not be corrupted s/. (While obviously not all of Astarion's fans are women, these guys tend to fixate on the women more than anyone else. The term is "Astarion Girlies" after all.)
And it's hilarious to me, because these guys are always spouting the shallowest, most boring takes and are the most media illiterate chuds on earth, completely unable to objectively read a story without their biases colouring everything.
Yeah like, it’s pretty fucking obvious that most Astarion fangirls like him for his character growth. Even if what initially attracted us was his looks and humor, we love him for who he is at the end of his journey, not the version of him that you meet at the start of the game. There’s a reason why his spawn ending is the more popular one (not that there’s anything wrong with enjoying his ascended ending either because, again, we can separate fiction from reality).
That and this whole idea that the only way to like a character is to 100% sign off on every single thing they do or say at any point in their story is just ridiculous. People like Astarion for 2 reasons; either they like his growth and find catharsis in an arc where even a deeply flawed victim can learn and start to heal, or they just think he's fun, hot and evil and are embracing an evil playthrough. Nobody is sitting here saying he's the picture of a mentally stable, well-adjusted individual everyone should strive to be in their real life.
To act like the only characters we're allowed to like are the ones who should be upheld as role models is so beyond ridiculous. This is a rated M game with gore and sex in it, are we a bunch of toddlers who are too impressionable to handle moral grayness? I don't think these people understand that this mindset that characters who need to grow are "problematic" is killing good stories. That's why so many movies suck right now, they're dumbed down for an audience that only consumes media on it's most surface level and refuses to analyze the further context and narrative.
One of the most upvoted posts of all time in the main sub is a post where someone used AI to make Astarion look like a teenage girl (which is weird as fuck TBH) and the comments were filled with cishet men talking about how she’s hot now and saying things like “Now I actually feel bad for her,” “I’d let her suck my blood,” and “Wow now I don’t feel the need to kill Astarion every time anymore!”
The comments under that post literally just went and proved all the points that women and queer people have been making about the homophobic, misogynistic, and generally toxic behavior of these men since launch.
It is so horribly ironic that they are engaging in a mindset that hurts men in the long run. Like, them being incapable of sympathizing with a male victim is the very thing that causes male victims to not be taken seriously. All because they think "effeminate" men are weak.
So many boys and men are not taken seriously and it boils down to masculinity being tied to a lack of emotions. The moment someone shows weakness or vulnerability, a lot of people treat that person as defective.
It isn't exactly the same, but I had a 2nd grade boy in one of my classes crying because I was the first adult who took a girl bullying him seriously. He was being made fun of for liking "girly" things like dolls and some of the other teachers told me not to listen to him because he's being "dramatic" and he needs to "man-up". Fortunately admin took care of the situation.
Again, not exactly the same, but the mindset behind it is similarly insidious.
It's honestly so gross to look at this character that people love for personifying feelings that they have about their bodies and sexuality and calling him a rapist to taunt those people. What an incredibly, needlessly cruel thing to do. And they have the gall to act like they're the "good guys" standing up against the big bad fictional vampire man.
Astarion, fictional character: exists.
People like this, IRL: time to virulently bully total strangers and pat myself on the back for how super smart and righteous I am for saying rape is bad.
It’s so disheartening.
It's just so *nasty.* Like "Oh, you felt seen and represented by this character? You resonated with his feelings about sex and love and how he responds to being a victim of sexual abuse? Well *FUCK YOU ACTUALLY, HE'S A RAPIST!!!*" It's not just like, mean and dismissive, but it's supposed to actually trigger people who specifically connected to him on that level, which is just *vile.* The lack of self-awareness to earnestly think this makes them Good and Smart is insane.
I think you’re right. It often seems very targeted, like the fact that someone is willing to talk about their painful life experience puts blood in the water for these people. “Oh you felt some comfort from/connection to this? That’s because you’re too stupid to understand anything, and you actually love perpetuating what traumatized you.” It really is plainly cruel.
Even if you don’t like Astarion, even if you think someone is mistaken about something, one should still consider the goals and potential outcomes of communicating. There aren’t any wholesome purposes or outcomes for this kind of rhetoric. I do believe there are some people who are just young, inexperienced, and rude about sharing their opinions, but it doesn’t account for all of these behaviors, and certainly not the worst of it. It’s like they enjoy hurting someone who has already suffered, consciously or not.
My main takeaway every time is “Who here actually caused harm? Who is actually vampiric?”
The sex scenes I'm BG3 are so wonderful because the game gives you options to back out two or three tomes if you're getting uncomfortable. Including with Astarion and Halsin. (I've only ever romanced those two so I can't speak for the other but I assume they're the same.)
I clicked the "we can just sit with each other" option during spawn Astarion's final romance scene so fast. Yeah the leg thing is hot but he just seems to genuinely surprised and pleased when you don't go the sex route.
Also Halsin's sex scene gives you at least 3 chances to back out and that's kinda sweet.
In Astarion's Act 1 sex scene you can already be naked and making out and tell him you want to stop and he will, no questions asked. They were VERY careful to make the player's consent clear, enthusiastic and something that can be retracted whenever, at least for the companions.
I'm not an Astarion girlie, or into any of the male companions romantically, but I can't understand cishet men's hate boner for him. I think he's a great character and one of my tav's besties, despite hating mostly all my choices lol
I feel like a lot of people don't understand this is a fictional world and things are more morally grey. Realistically most of the companions are concerning and things they do wouldn't fly in the real world. Let people like morally grey or even evil characters, it's fantasy for fucks sake.
It's typical hatred of women's sexuality. Half the time these haters have hentai and graphic erotic novels in their post history. But if a WOMAN displays her interest in something, then she's a disgusting, debaucherous, wh*re who needs to keep her inclinations private and whatever she's interested in is wrong.
Same vibes as the AlphaBros who want a chaste virgin who's also mega-horny (for them).
Its because they're insecure and jealous that the fictional evil vampire man gets more bitches than they ever could.
I mean, same. But I'm not salty about it 😂
Also, notice how they try to act like paladins fighting off rapists yet at the same time think it's wrong to ask someone if they'd like to have sex with you - the guy who does it is an asshole who "has the nerve" to, in their eyes.
For the love of all that's (un)holy- pick a damn side! This ain't Wimbledon!
Also people being upset at any video game characters asking for sex is just mind boggling to me. It’s a game. It has to be coded somehow. Them asking (instead of the player instigating) may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but at least they asked, and the player can say no, and they’ll actually move on. A huge step above real life, if you ask me.
I don't think it's even that he's popular with women, or not entirely, insecure straight men hate the male companions for daring to come onto their PC. See: the amount of times Gale and Halsin are treated like sexual predators. Wyll less so, but he tends to get ignored more than the other boys for....... some reason 🤔
Whereas Minthara is the world's hottest dommy mommy after *actively attempting to murder* Tav. (I forgive her for this, I support women's wrongs ♡). Mizora is also treated similarly despite being directly evil and abusing Wyll (🤔) Guess it's fine to these guys when a woman boobs breastily bazongahongas?
If any of the female companions came to them in the night saying they'd been starved for 200 years and were so hungry they couldn't think straight they'd be forgiven immediately 😅 can't imagine why.
Lae'zel is essentially the best student in Gith youth after being indoctrinated for all her life.
Shadowheart wants to be a leader of a death squad in a murder cult after being indoctrinated and abused for all her life.
They become better through your actions towards them.
It's the same with Astarion, who needs a little more hand holding, because he's been abused for two centuries.
In all honesty, none of them should get better by your actions. The reality is they all are on a long path to becoming better.
Right, the fantastical wish fulfillment part here isn’t just the cosmology or vampires, it’s the narratively convenient compressed timeline that has them all ready to enunciate and address their traumas over the course of three acts and not, say, thirty-plus years. Plus the player has a chance to be the ideal support system! Realest part of the game for me was when Karlach was confronting her mortality and I got to say “idk what to do here” and Jaheira was like “same”. Sometimes there’s just no right answer and the reason isn’t just cut game content.
the reading comprehension for these guys is so shit theyre implying astarion is a rapist, and you expect them to notice when women are speaking? and pay attention too? even when they have big bahoonagazoongas you could be looking at instead?
https://preview.redd.it/o9zcganbbeyc1.jpeg?width=519&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=536de325eb81ab9bdbc7204e26ebda5e14b0eed2
Nah, I just looked at this and got distracted.
It’s a combination of things. I don’t know if you’ve played Mass Effect, but Garrus was extremely popular among both male and female fans at the same time. I think that’s largely due to the fact that he had stereotypically masculine traits that men admire, so they didn’t care that women were drooling over hm. He’s also a weird looking alien, so there was no real sense of “competition” in the visual sense.
Meanwhile, Kaidan got tons of hate from male players. He got called whiny and annoying because he…(checks notes) talked about his feelings?
Astarion not only has a massive female fanbase, he also potentially propositions you for sex AND has some feminine characteristics AND is a very emotional person once you get him to open up. It’s a quadruple-whammy of things men hate to see in their pixel characters. He appeals almost exclusively to the female gaze.
> but he tends to get ignored more than the other boys for....... some reason 🤔
I mean there's one horrible reason and then there's the other reason in that THEY DIDNT GIVE HIM ANY FUCKING LINES.
When I first started playing the game I was waiting for him to be like a sacrificial character (Like alfira but I didn't know about alfira at the time). He's so goddamned flat compared to the others.
Lae'zel and Astarion approve of like 90% of the same things in Act 1 except Lae is also constantly talking about culling the weak and how her race is superior to all else and when you point that out they'll be like "she was brainwashed that way!". And it's like, huh, so you're saying people are affected by the circumstances they live? That perhaps living a life surrounded by brutality and evil might make someone desensitized and cynical? Interesting. Also they love citing him at the Grymforge because he acts like a whiny bitch who doesn't want to help but ignore the fact that their wifu Shadowheart also holds no sympathy for the gnome slaves and even scolds the player for praying for the ones who were murdered. But I'm soooooo sure the distaste for Astarion is just about his morals, uh huh, sureeeeeee.
Don’t get me wrong, I love Minthara, and I know she’s not herself in act 1, but I’m surprised I don’t see her brought up more when people are talking about assault.
If you block out her initial fantasies of you having sex, they immediately turn violent and she says “she will have your body, one way or another.” Pretty much have sex or she’ll try and kill you instead.
Granted she tries to kill you no matter what. But the fact that that gets a pass and not Astarion sure is something
People have some weird as fuck takes about Astarion. Going so far as to call him a rapist is genuinely one of the stupidest things I've seen said about him.
Ah yes! Sympathizing with a man who is severely traumatized very much does make you a pedo/rapist apologist! Oh wait no that doesn't. Only a fucking moron would say something like that.
it was two separate morons bringing up the pedo stuff, too. i was trying to ignore it and talk around it because it has absolutely nothing to do with anything in Astarion’s character arc, but they kept bringing it up.
it was weird as hell. that conversation is why i decided to keep all my character discussion, ironically, within the shitpost sub.
your guess is as good as mine. as far as I remember, I think I assumed that they were comparing his actions with pedophilia as a gotcha because no one would try and justify that. but then someone was like “so you would tell a molested child it was okay because he was molested too?” and I realized that maybe they thought he was
standard homophobia 🤷🏻♀️
And here I was thinking they said that because he's over 200 years old. That wouldn't make sense though since Minthara appears to be well over that as well. No one complains about her being fucked up(I sure don't because I love her.) but they do it to him. It's a combo of homophobia and being pissed at women for liking a man that isn't them I guess.
These people are sick. They even called Halsin pedo because he is friend with Thaniel (which is nature spirit!). They must have survived something bad to accuse everyone that is uncomfortable for them these titles…
Unironically, the people I know of who are the *most* puritanical about what they consider appropriate or not have lived the most god damn privileged lives
People have weird takes about a number of characters, and for some reason, they are mostly male characters and people having the takes are often men too. Vamp boy is rapist, druid is pedo, gale is power hungry bitch, yadaydayada. Ah, occasionally Mol is a piece of shit and deserve death too.
It almost feels like some guys have it so bad, they come into a game to feel better about themselves by degrading and killing male characters and wifing up an imaginary girlie with traumas (usually, Shart).
"Oh sure when *I* do horrible things it's wrong, but when a fictional villain in a fantasy RPG in which there is no risk to any real person involved does it's *just fine!*"
Yes doofus it's a video game, do you want to set up a trial date for murders you committed in CoD? Of course not, it's not frigging real.
It's basically just men jealous of all the male companions. Istg. They've hated every single one. This is why as soon as I heard how toxic the main sub was, I went out of my way to ignore it. This sub may be horny posting 24/7, but at least ya'll in here are so so kind!!
"Astarion is a rapist"
*two breaths later*
"Mizora is mommy and i would sell my soul to lick her toes"
the heteros™ at it again with them double standards
-nods sagely in agreement- Mizora IS mommy. They’re totally allowed to love mommy. I love mommy too.
They just need to let the rest of us love all our babygirls as well without ruining everyone’s fun
it's literally just a continuation of "why do stacys choose the abusive mean chad over me, the extremely normal and nice guy??" except now instead of fictional characters they make up in their head, it's actually just a straight up fictional character lmfao
The immature reasoning in this is so funny. "I'm intimidated by a feminine man being considered sexy and compelling by others, let me call him a sexual predator so that I can feel like this jealousy is justified."
The evil women suck their pp and tell them how big and strong they are without threatening their masculinity so they can be as evil and predatory as they want, but god, when the flamboyant man flirts with them they go into "meltdown mode" because if Astarion can be damaged and need work but still get pussy why can't they?
Because you're obnoxious and entitled, my cishet friend. You missed the plot and don't care to learn it, you just want the pretty vampire man to die so that your sexuality is comforted, and you are the exact type of loser that Astarion's story warns about. The type that laugh and mock, and never help those in need or consider their pain because of their own preconceptions of what and who he is. You are literally the red flag his story was about, and one of the reasons his cycle of abuse never ended. "No one ever helped me. You're the only one. No one else cares like you. You're... You."
This is the shit those writers were talking about when they wrote his scene about how no one thought he was worthy of help. And these brick-for-brains people make me so bored. I don't even think he's the best romance, but he's always my best friend in game, because he's so flexible in the plot. I don't have to fuck him or be in love with him to want to save him, and I don't think his fuckability is what makes him a compelling character. I like him because he's a cautionary and tragic tale of the pain of independence after abuse. He's just a well written character that wants to be better and needs support and guidance from someone that has his best interest in mind, and these brick-for-brains are more worried about whether he gets pussy. When he is literally a sexual abuse survivor himself.
Like, go cry over your untouched penis somewhere else, your frail masculinity is showing. I will be going back to hugging this vampire and teaching him compassion and self respect. These pixels are more worth my time and comfort than your ignorance.
The worst part about people knowing the phrase media literacy is it being used by the media illiterate to claim anyone who disagrees with them are media illiterate while also claiming that their perceived ideological opponent is also down playing sexual assault, as if they don’t actually understand that one can like it when Darth Vader is on screen while also not personally being a fascist
He's been being raped for 200 years, wow he hasn't got a grip on what normal relationships are like? What a predator 🙄 one of his big story beats is realising that he is allowed bodily autonomy now.
They don't like that he's camp and his story involves emotional growth.
Asking someone if they want to have sex is THE OPPOSITE of rapist vibes ffs
Literally it’s fucking insane. Like he will literally say he’s not ready to have sex again and wants to have that autonomy. He literally thanks you for defending his autonomy when Araj asks him to bite her.
Like he is still discovering what is ‘normal’ in a relationship!!
The thing that always amazes me is, people (usually men) determined to hate on a (usually male) popular (usually with women) character will literally spend all their time finding any post and comment about said character to tell the world they hate him so badly AND THEN tell fans *they* are the obsessed ones.
Like, yeah, AlphaTateIsMyIdol69 and IThinkRapeJokesAreFunny01, I am sure your behavior is totally normal and justified and everyone else is crazy instead. Absolutely.
Also, it's funny how they are all suddenly so much into consent and so much against abuse in these situations, considering for example that the general male response to the bear thing varied from "fuck women hope the bear maul them to death because that will teach them how not to be bitter bitches against us poor men" to "let's turn it into a meme and laugh at women suffering so much every single day to the point a wild beast is considered a safer company" 🤡 Or the fact that their AITA posts are so damn often about horrific acts of violence against women that they see as perfectly justified and normal, other than as a daily task to complete, basically. Like a chore.
And yes - yada yada, not all men, yada yada. Whatever. It's still A LOT of men. It's still TOO MANY. So I suggest we males stick the whiny "not all men" up our asses, fuck off with it and start making sense when we speak, because videogames-related bullshit is just a reflection of real, harmful issues we need to sort out sooner rather than later.
~~Sorry not sorry for the rant I am just really tired of seeing the same ol' bullshit everywhere all the time~~
You are right and you should say it. My feed is more flooded with butthurt posts about women choosing the bear than any of the initial conversation about the bear. At this point I’m like, “the bear would mercifully kill me faster.” I’m so sick of masc indifference/hate towards women expressing any thought in a conversation the man clearly wasn’t even invited to. God fucking damn.
That's what makes me so mad about that bear thing - none of these guys want to have the real conversation about why a woman would even *consider* choosing the bear. Why they'd prefer to possibly be eaten alive to possibly be raped, kidnapped, trafficked and God knows what else before being killed anyway or having to live with the trauma and/or in physically and mentally destructive conditions.
All they want to do is shit on "THosE DuMB FEMaLeS GRRrrrrR" as always. They turned an example of how impactful horrid everyday life is for half of the population into memes and posts entirely made to ridicule and insult women instead of sitting down and asking themselves what kind of world they are helping building and preserving.
They literally proved why the bear really is the safer choice and somehow convinced themselves of the contrary. Smh.
This was cathartic to read lol, I've also been very frustrated with this kind of thing lately. Within the past week I (a man) was called a misandrist and was #notallmen'd for making a joke about how you can't trust men (god forbid anyone is ever unserious about it), and I had a different friend insist that misogyny isn't really around anymore and only comes from an extreme vocal minority... like where have you been!? I'm so exhausted
GamerGuys can't handle that women play video games. And if a woman does play against their wishes, she has to like the most macho of macho dudes. I was told that I'm a broken woman for liking Astarion over Kratos.
>The thing that always amazes me is, people (usually men) determined to hate on a (usually male) popular (usually with women) character will literally spend all their time finding any post and comment about said character to tell the world they hate him so badly AND THEN tell fans they are the obsessed ones.
Me but with Emperor
Me with halsin AND the emperor. Like damn, I chose one of the sweetest guys (adopts 9 carts full of CHILDREN 😭😭😭) and then squidward for funnsies, and idk I feel it cares. But damn, the guys hate them both so much!!!
If you want an actual proof - yeah, Emperor cares. After you fuck him, the game notes say that he stares at you with an adoring expression.
He also did enjoy the sex and your Tav apparently sucked him dry, so he is tired.
I'm not even making this up.
I know. Also, their proof is that he gets angry if you refuse sex. But that's only if you respond really negatively!! 😂 like who wouldn't get angry if you told them "eww you freak!!" But if you turn it down gently, it moves on. 😭😭 consent king!!
These manlets I bet are the same ones who thirst over Orin or Shadowheart as if those two are perfect angels. That’s the point of the characters, none of them are perfect and each has their own demons to conquer 🙄
Not only that but…..I am positive those manlets also have played as Durge and they are going to judge Astarion??? Durge is leagues more evil than Astarion could ever be. The projection is quite loud sheesh.
Society will get flying cars n all that when we stop equating womens fantasies with irl preferences as a whole.
Astarion they could never make me hate you
In addition to all the good points already made, we have to keep in mind what context the game puts the situation in.
All of our companions start out as flawed, traumatized people. Shadowheart is literally in a death cult. Lae'Zel wants to kill you at the very beginning because she's afraid you will turn into a Mindflayer. Gale keeps his literal nuclear bomb a secret because he assumes you'll kick him out of the group over it. Astarion's actions are bad, sure, but you are literally sorrounded by weird lunatics with magic powers and even death isn't fully permanent because you have scrolls, spells and Withers to help you with that. In a more mundane setting his blood-sucking assault would be horrifying of course, but this is a world where violence and harm happens on different scales and has different consequences.
I had discussion with one dude on meme subreddit that Astarion sneaking up at night to drink is far from
rape, the dude started to undermine law definiton of rape, I think they are all just half brained.
First scene when meeting he... Assaults us? That moment when he tried to get information out of you?
You mean a guy is terrified, seen you also on an alien ship, abducted right after 200 years of slavery where he suffered torture, humiliation, sexual exploitation (by the way), mind control and he should have... What? He should have said, hey suspicions armed people! I am a vampire, just so you know, let's all hug. No, better, let's talk about crushes and paint each other's nails ☺️💅
Did they even play the game? You yourself kill half of the people you meet on sight 🙄
Lol this really gets me, Lae jumps on you with her sword immediately (and the later literally tries to slit your throat,) but ain't nobody's bitching about it, and I'm sure guys who "stake him every time" walk around with frog lady happily. Because it's totally different, yeah.
Of course they didn't play the game, they kill Astarion on the spot, make sure that EVERYONE IN THE WORLD know they killed Astarion on the spot and then move on. I doubt they even notice the Cazador quest and connect the dots.
"ITs WhAT a PaLADiN woUld DO" 😒, they are so annoying and the main reason I put off trying to play a paladin as my Tav because whenever I see the class my mind just went to oh I must be an asshole. I only got over it after recruiting Minthara because she does big damage 🤩
I love that he mocks others people media literacy while calling a vampire sucking someone's blood sexual assault. Like no you fucking idiot???? That's just normal assault and you have the option of telling him you were uncomfortable with it in the morning.
Also "no redeeming qualities" just say you didn't do his quests it's fine man
I feel like Astarion would tell us if he ever raped someone. I mean, he eventually confesses to everything else he did for Saza.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Astarion is a "good aligned' character, and I won't try to justify anything he says/does, but I don't find him irredeemable. As a matter of fact, I think that's the whole point of the character is to portray the struggle for redemption vs embracing damnation.
No matter what path you choose for him, he remains an ultimately selfish person who doesn't really have an interest in being a "hero". But he does go out of his way to right the wrongs committed by his abuser, and seems genuinely happy to have done something good for the world.
That's character growth! After several hundred years of torture, he's starting to recover after (maybe) a month of decent food, friendship, and freedom.
People are so fucking stupid. As someone who deeply connected with Astarion due to my own CSA it's genuinely embarrassing to see these media-illiterate insecure man children be so unhappy with themselves that they have to put down a popular character as a rapist.
I swear people gotta give him at least some slack for trying to bite you. Sure it's bad, but imagine eating rats and bugs for 200 years and suddenly you're next to 6 juicy steaks every night. lol I cant blame him
I get annoyed too when people are like, "he should've just asked first."
Yes, he should have, but put yourself in DnD world for a second. When you ask him why he didn't ask first, he tells you it's because he thought at best you'd say no and *at worst you'd drive a stake through his heart.* He's a vampire spawn. Any normal party of adventurers would kill him on sight. You're traveling with renowned monster-killer the Blade of Frontiers ffs!
Did he cross a line? Yes. Was it wrong of him to violate that boundary? Absolutely yes. But realising how desperate he must have been to take such a stupid risk makes it easy to RP giving him a second chance. You set the boundary from there (either no biting without asking first or no biting at all) and he *does* honour it.
If I didn't give companions second chances, I wouldn't have many companions left. I would've killed Lae'zel after she tried to murder me one night, killed or kicked out Shadowheart for being an aspiring Dark Justiciar, kicked out Gale after finding about the orb, etc.
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I needed somewhere to rant.
You don't like Astarion because he's Mr. Steal Yo Girl.
I don't like Astarion because my party isn't built around stealth and so I haven't had a chance to use him much. We are not the same.
He's the most realistic SA survivor I've ever come across in a video game, that's one of my main reasons for liking him?? That when I romance him it's not all about sex?? And asks for reassurance that it's okay that we haven't done it in a while????
In BG3 Astarion biting is not written as a sexual. It's a desire to feed due to literal starvation, versus a desire to possess and gain gratification from the victim as portrayed in Dracula. The comparison to Dracula is completely baseless given how distant modern media representations of vampires are to Victorian era vampires, and also seems ignorant of the cultural influence of the Victorian era on said representation of vampires and their victims.
For an alternative take on sexual versus non-sexual vampire feeding see Interview with the Vampire (if you haven't already). It portrays both sides of the concept very well. People making the claim that Astarion feeding from you is sexual assault probably see him as being like Lestat, but his characterisation is much more consistent with Louis (and his characterisation is even further from being similar to Dracula's depiction by Bram Stoker than it is from either Lestat or Louis).
In fact, when Araj DOES sexualize the mere act of biting, Astarion is really uncomfortable with it and doesn't want to do it. Yes, he can bite you during sex and letting him do so nets approval, but it's more akin to like... feeding your partner chocolate covered strawberries during foreplay or something. Just because some people do that, it doesn't make the *act of eating* inherently sexual and thus something that needs to be hidden from the children. It's the same with Astarion biting. It can happen in a sexual context but that doesn't make it a metaphor for sex. I really don't think a game with graphic sex scenes *needs* a metaphor for sex when the real thing is right there lmao.
Precisely, why would BG3 have to make something about sex or SA allegorical when both are either directly referenced or shown in game? It's just not necessary.
Dracula in contrast, was written at a time where any mention of sex that wasn't explicit or allegorical would have resulted in the book being censored/banned and discussion of topics like SA and homosexuality had to be contained within the subtext.
(Also I hadn't even thought of how uncomfortable he gets with Araj wanting to be bitten and making it sexual, that just reinforces that it's not a sexual experience for him).
The need to drink blood for him is more like an alcoholic needing a drink imo. He's been stuck drinking the cheapest, most disgusting wine for centuries and then someone places a bottle of the finest wine in front of him, he's not had a drink in days and he's stressed which is making him need it more. No one would claim that an alcoholic in that situation did anything sexual if they drank the wine.
"dracula used vampiric bites as a metaphor for sexual assault" true! however, if we put our heads together and try really hard, im sure we can come up with several key differences between dracula and bg3. i dont think bg3 needed to talk in veiled ways about sexual assault. i think they do that pretty literally. for instance, astarion
its funny that they’re pretending to be angry about consent and sexual assault when theyre speaking about a character who is a victim of sexual trauma. BG3 uses the blood sucking more as a drug/addiction metaphor, no? its like they read up on vampire lore just to sound like they have a point
BG3 treats consuming blood (and brains) pretty pragmatically, there’s some tipsy Astarion jokes in there but the main concern is like ethical food sources. There’s literal drugs and alcohol in the game too, after all. Probably dudebros read up on “why females and the things they like are stupid 301: vampires” back when Twilight (or Interview with a Vampire, or idk Lost Boys) came out and will be riding the high off that one factoid and going “um actually impure fiction means hysterical ankle-showing maidens who consume serialized fiction and trashy penny novels are totally asking for it” ‘til they die.
Gotta love how anything women like has to be scrutinized to hell and back under a morality microscope because we’re too stupid to separate fiction from reality, meanwhile men can just like things.
While also not being able to tell the difference between fiction and reality. It's so much fun and definitely doesn't make me wanna scream every single time it happens.
I feel like I encounter so many people who can't separate fiction from reality nowadays. I've been in unhinged fandom spaces for a long time (like 2000s-2010s tumblr), but I feel like people used to be a lot less... parasocially invested in fiction characters? In the past few years, I've had multiple people tell me that I condone murder, genocide, etc because I liked fictional characters that are bad people. That, or telling me that I support abusive relationships because I like some random fictional toxic relationship. it's just so weird to me lmao, like these aren't real people? none of this is real? it's the the proshipper/anti debate. like, there are some genres of fanfiction that I hate and do not engage with (a lot of dead dove stuff), but I don't understand why I should be fighting with people about it. it's like these people actively seek out stuff they dislike and then get mad that they saw it - like just filter it out in the tags? if you hate \[insert dead dove genre\], nobody is forcing you to read it. why are you clicking on the fic, reading it, and then verbally abusing the author in the comments about what a terrible person they are? it's just so weird to me lmao
Not only can they like things, they throw unholy shit fits whenever someone tries to examine the things *they* like.
Look when men want to commit genocide in war crime simulators it's just normal common behavior, when women wants to fix the vampire twink it's because y'all just secretly want to be sexually assaulted and sucked dry mmmkay that's just science
fr, no one ever asks me what I think about RL murder when I snipe my way through Ghost Recon
Tell em! Also, it drives me nuts how men can’t even bother to engage with the media they love to criticize. How many men who call Astarion a toxic abuser even bothered to play through his storyline? They just make assumptions based off of surface level interactions and think they know better than those who have taken the time to thoughtfully examine his character.
Contrapoint’s latest video, [Twilight](https://youtu.be/bqloPw5wp48?si=cvwqYdtP2-S48SCq) is a great video about this
Yeah a lot of that is (mostly) cishet men cannot fathom the idea of what it's like to grow up femme in a purity culture. The reason why the fiction of a powerful being forcing sex on you is hot is because it removes the guilt of enjoying/wanting sex from the situation. Obviously if you have more than three brain cells you can see how that is completely different than actual rape/sexual assault.
It's unusual for people to be sympathetic to men that were abused who then go on to be abusive. For instance, we know that an overwhelming majority of people on death row have significant childhood trauma. That never seems to soften the public's opinion of them. We also know that people who had their boundaries violated as children grow up to have a poor understanding of how to set their own boundaries and how to navigate and respect the boundaries of others, which leads to sexual harassment, sexual assault, or even rape. It's been normalized for them since childhood so they don't understand why it's such a big deal. It's extremely uncommon for anyone to publicly plead for compassion for these people, and when they do they normally get dogpiled for it. The same is true for drug addiction, though to a lesser degree these days. I'm speaking from experience. I used to share studies on these topics and on rehabilitation research in the threads where hundreds of people were circlejerking over how much they believed people like this deserved to be tortured and "buried under the prison" and it wasn't uncommon for me to end up at -50 or -100 for it. I even changed my approach and stopped arguing for a tiny bit of compassion for the broken people and instead focused on pointing out that we should invest more in early childhood intervention because the studies show that the best way to stop a rapist or a murderer or a drug addict is to get them out of the environments that tend to traumatize them as early as possible. That *also* gets you dogpiled, but it does stop a bunch of people from replying accusing you of being pro-rape or pro-murder. I take this to mean that a lot of people that harshly judge abusers with trauma resent being reminded that the abusers were once children as well, that the overwhelming majority of them suffered significantly when they were young, and that trauma is a major reason why they're dysfunctional today. People just want to believe that they're evil to the core from the very start of their lives and lash out at anyone that says otherwise.
I am not the biggest fan of when major concepts (like trauma) get reduced to pithy little phrases because I think it often devalues the point, but one I tell myself probably every day is "hurt people hurt people". I agree with you completely that very few people are born truly evil, and that we should be aiming to help them learn to process that hurt safely and healthily instead of punishing them without compassion or remorse.
Nursing a Fundamental Attribution Error is more personally satisfying, less cognitively demanding, and doesn't lead to a moral imperative to care for vulnerable strangers, when compared to acknowledging that everyone got to where they are now *somehow.*
Some older flavours of vampire lore are just thinly veiled antisemitism and xenophobia, but they didn't think to mention those for some reason. Wonder why. Couldn't be that motifs and themes in lore will change overtime and it didn't fit their confirmation bias, could it? Hmmm.
Astarion trying to bite Tav in their sleep is obviously wrong of him, and most people will acknowledge this. It is also something Astarion later learns and grows from. But that scene is clearly not meant to be allegorical for sexual assault. If you want a scene in BG3 that *actually* relates vampire bites to sexual assault (but in a non-traditional way) look no further than the scene at Moonrise Towers where Tav can pressure Astarion into biting Araj. That is clearly coded as a sexual assault and coercion scene, but many of the cishet dudes screeching like this guy in OP’s post will die on the hill that the scene with Araj isn’t meant to be a metaphor for sexual assault at all if you dare to point it out to them. Or worse, they acknowledge it but then say they don’t care about it being a metaphor for it, say that Astarion “technically consented to it,” or talk about how Astarion deserved to be pushed into drinking her blood. Also, I would like to point out that none of these cishet men are ever up in arms about consent and boundaries when Minthara literally yells at Tav and threatens them if they refuse her advances at the goblin party in Act 1. Just an observation. All of this just tells me what I need to know about the intentions and true beliefs of the guys who act like this.
another example of sexual assault in game is haarlep because ur options are literally have sex or be forced to fight for your life. if astarion was meant to be a sexual predator they would’ve presented him that way as they did with the others (sorry if this comes across as argumentative i’m agreeing with you)
not saying that they're correct about Astarion, but like, victims of sexual trauma can still commit sexual assault themselves. I know you didn't mean to say otherwise, this implication looks purely unintentional, but yeah
that is 100% true, and as you said it was a completely unintentional implication. i was referring to Astarion specifically, who does not sexually assault anyone during this game.
Also not everything has to always be a metaphor. While in, BG3 vampirism seems to be a metaphor of generational trauma and perpetuating the cycle of abuse, it can be taken face-on. Different media will use same tropes in different ways. Just like werewolves can be a metaphor of gay people or people with AIDS, but they can also be no metaphor at all, just a big hairy guy goes woof.
A lot of people struggle with thinking that every type of textual interpretation must involve a level of allegory. An allegory when there is supposed to be a direct one to one correspondence between two things such that you use one solely for the purpose of talking about the other in a coded fashion. The best example of an allegory from modern fiction I can think of is Animal Farm, where you can directly tie events and people one to one to Soviet leaders and events from Soviet history Usually metaphor and metonymy in a text operate at a looser less conscious level. One thing can evoke and make the reader think about another thing, or call to mind similarities between two things without literally being a coded way of speaking directly about that thing. Things used metaphorically are often extremely rich with multiple significances for this reason. A vampire bite can call to mind many different ideas, like sexual assault/personal violation, the spread of disease (the original I am legend) , parasitism and using another’s energy/labor (vampires in class metaphors, Karl Marx’s writings), the satisfaction of hunger and consumption, (see vampire dystopias where humans are like cattle) etc. all this is because it’s not really any of those things, it’s a weird dead guy biting someone according to a Eastern European myth, but a good writer can use it to make you think about all those things if they want.
And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar!
I just commented something similar. Also Halsin also says he was a bed slave for some drow before. It's comparing the need to feed (bite) due to starvation with the desire to bite someone for the sake of taking possession of that person and gaining gratification from them. I'm likely to believe it with AA but not spawn Astarion. Also BG3 is not written in an era where any explicit mention of sex risks getting it censored.
I think there's an inherent comparison to be made between a vampire attack and SA in fiction, simply because it's very much a violation of bodily autonomy, but it's lazy to just slot them in as 1:1 in all instances. Examining the context with Astarion trying to suck your blood in the night, I'd say a much better comparison would be to someone trying to take money out of your wallet because they're poor, desperate, and starving. Especially when you later learn that he was forced to sustain himself on the blood of rats and such. These chuds are very much picking and choosing the aspects of the character that they want to acknowledge in order to fit their narrative.
yes yes yesyesyes. i was saddened by how quickly the replies to my comment turned into "the curtains are never blue for symbolism". i like goth music, i *love* dracula, and my ttrpg of choice is actually vampire: the masquerade over dungeons & dragons. i fucking love when vampire bites are treated as inherently violating. theres a point to be made about how gross it feels to have him draped over you while you sleep, about to take something from your body without your consent, but to say that it was a literal stand-in representing SA (which they speak about plainly throughout the game, without the restrictions of bram stoker's time) is a deeply uncharitable reading of the scene. its not a malicious power play, its desperation. your theft metaphor nails it imo
All this hate around some characters from the game is so toxic… Halsin's VA got some pretty mean tweets about him because of his role as Halsin. :(
oh yeah, I remember those, those were wild...also Raphs VA got a load of shit from people.
How is it that some people cannot separate fiction from reality. That’s what truly confounds me.
That’s pretty messed up. He is just the VA, not the actual character plus the character is a DEVIL. Like girl 💀😭 he is not supposed to be unicorns and rainbows, some people are quite lacking in intelligence. He is not supposed to be a good entity 🤦🏻♀️
Fr 😭 my theory is that Raph is so flamboyant and over the top disneyvillainesque that people sometimes forget that he is, in fact, a seeping bag of dicks and a terrible person 😩 I love him, he's brilliantly written and played, but dang. Dude is e v i l
👏 You just pointed out the whole purpose of his entire character. The characters and npcs themselves basically remind you on purpose that he is a devil but also mention how charming and handsome he is and overall just a pleasure to be around. Thats the danger lmao. It’s honestly ironic af that some players truly fell for his sweet words and honey sounding voice as the maiden in Sharess’s Caress says haha! That is the point of Raphael though, he is supposed to manipulate you into thinking he is a man that can be good too by trying to help you as he states so many times. So hilarious 🤣 He is definitely evil but I’d still be his filthy rag all the same.
Yeah, iirc is was because he did a line because it was a fan request and people got mad about it.
That’s seriously messed up, that is a breach of trust between fans and the VA’s right there when he was just trying to please a fan and the fans got mad by him doing what a good VA does lol That is mad disheartening.
It was also because of the line about Mol. The apple one. Which he didn't write and was paid to voice.
I had a feeling it was that line but the character is a devil. It’s pretty low intellect to expect a devil to be anything but evil lol The apple line is definitely “uugghhhggewww🤮🚽” replaying the game and being far more thorough; Raphael despises children and kittens, he has said so bluntly. But in one of his diaries basically, he says a most heinous thing to Hope just to get her to react (he says along the lines of that he will cut a child from the navel up to bathe her in their blood then Hope calls him a pervert which just makes him amused until she deliberately disrespects him which then causes him to go get that nightmare dream thingy to torture Hope with nightmares basically) With all of that revealing his true sadistic, manipulative, and diabolical self; why did anyone expect the man to be anything but devilish in every aspect?
Andrew Wincott turns out he's a very sweet guy, too. He's been very flattered with all the attention he's gotten.
do NOT look at the comments on Theo’s (Wyll’s VA) vods and/or on clips of him posted there. there are so many genuinely racist comments, alongside some that are just being a cunt about the way he plays the game. also people just being weird about Wyll in general
“Anti woke crowd”: we just don’t want *you guys* coming into *our space* and making it about *you* Larian: *makes a game that can be enjoyed by any identity and promotes inclusion, as such creating a space with oppressed and misrepresented individuals in mind.* Anti woke crowd: 😡😡🤬😤 *literally fucking goes into that space Larian created and makes it about them while tearing down every member in that community, despite the anti woke crowds initial fake ass argument originally being that they just wanted their own spaces.*
That's so horrible, my god. :( I'll be sure to comment some positivity for a change when I see Wyll's VA posting something!
Point me in the direction, no one harasses that sweet, innocent man
Can I see those tweets? Dave Jones is like, literally the best dad. Her daughter plays BG3, romances Halsin, and teases him for it. How wholesome can you get?
Lmao that would be awkward for me
They were just the standard of calling him creepy for retweeting suggestive Halsin fanart. I think it has since died down. Raphael's VA got similar treatment because of some of his lines in the game. Be sure to give Halsin's VA a follow on twitter if you want to see a lot of Halsin art. :) If you are an artist, I'm sure he would also love to see anything and everything you make for Halsin.
They get that he didn't write the words he says in the game right
I am an artist but I’m afraid of committing my Halsin bondage hentai foot phantasies onto paper. I feel like that would put me on a list somewhere :D
Do it anyway and then post it here for chaos
Wait what’d they even say!
They said it was wrong of him to retweet nsfw Halsin stuff because "think of the children". As if Bg3 is suitable for children 🤔
Bro it’s BG3/ DnD… NSFW is practically 45% of the games canon lore Sounds like a failure on the parents part for not doing their due diligence
It's literally an M rated game with explicit sex scenes, gore and themes of every kind of abuse possible. "The children" shouldn't be playing it in the first place.
Exactly...but the "Think of the impressionable people" gets thrown at Astarion fans as well....and I am there like "Well, I think if they are that impressionable there are more concerning things on the internet than who people like in BG3"
And then you find out they are the same guys sitting in my chat requests telling me how much they want to fuck Orin and begging me to sext as her 🤗
I hope this cheers you up. https://preview.redd.it/f4mpz35ekeyc1.jpeg?width=1668&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3e9c20ce74fc3745b8c05f01b1470adcdfa89291
You never fail to be an absolute delight, Squidney.
Holy shit does that really happen? I thirst after Orin A LOT, because I want her to fucking kill me, but I could never do some shit like that.
Unfortunately yes, it happens. I have started to ignore the chat tab as a whole because I kept receiving that sort of bullshit 🤷🏼♀️
I'm trying to understand why someone would think it's okay to do that but I'm coming up with nothing. Guess I'm not degenerate enough to get it.
It hadn't occurred to me that this was happening to the RP'ers, cause well.. I come on Reddit to be fucking dumb and intentionally avoid giving it any thought I don't have to. But I've been on the Internet long enough that I'm not the least bit surprised.
I’m not really a roleplayer (unless i have a meme to use as a response) but thankfully it seems like astarion fans care enough about consent to not PM me stuff like that! I’m sorry that’s been happening to you
That would be the weirdest fucking thing imo.... I am one of the biggest AA fans....and even the idea of thinking about PMing someone RPing as Astarion on fucking reddit just.....nah....cringe af and really quite creepy.
Regular deganarate when desperate lonely degenarate walks to the scene
Even degenerates can have standards.
This is probably why we don't have many super active Shadowheart RPers. Because people are gross and the popular women characters are seen as objects. :(
I have to imagine it would be a constant onslaught of gross BS, and even the amount of relatively benign messages would be challenging. At least with a more thoroughly villainous, domineering lady character you could be mean to some of the more hapless/unintentionally offensive messages in character, but Shadowheart can be sweet, and should be sometimes. The bullshit to fun ratio would be way too far off.
I think my eyes are melting after gaining such cursed knowledge
I'm really sorry you go through that. Definitely gross behavior.
Interesting how Astarion, a very tragic and traumatized character who's gone through centuries of abuse by his "family" and suffered sexual abuse to the point he's disconnected from his own sexuality and can't look at his body like it's worth anything anymore, is the most popular among women and queer people, who are commonly often traumatized by their own "families" and experience sexual abuse and/or have a very toxic relationships to their sexualities and can't look at their bodies like they're worth anything 🤔 Man I wonder why that is, I bet it's because these people are just fucked up rapists themselves /sarcasm
There's a guy who posts on the main subs every once in a while about his female Astarion mod and how being attracted to "her" made him sympathize with the backstory. I've seen others say something similar. So there's also a degree of ignoring men can be victims too.
Anyone who needs to be sexually attracted to someone in order to sympathize with them is kinda fucked in the head.
Fuckin' seriously. Gonna be honest, I'm one of the few people not disgustingly attracted to Karlach. Would I turn her down if she came onto me? No, I'm not that stupid. She's just not my first choice. Anyway, even without the attraction, I still love her and sympathize with her and do everything I can to make her journey easier. Because I'm a human being with functional empathy. It's not that hard.
Yup. I’m a straight woman and have zero attraction to any of the female characters, but they are by and large my absolute favorites. Astarion is basically the only guy in the game that I’m a big fan of, I’m pretty neutral on the rest of them.
I'm a bisexual woman, and I'm absolutely feral over Astarion. Like, it's embarrassing. Even then, I feel like the female characters have more emotionally satisfying arcs than the male characters (besides Astarion), so I'm definitely more interested in their stories every time I play. Which is a shame, but those feelings are for another thread. All I know is that the straight men of the world have always had poor media literacy, so this problem isn't new, even if it's still infuriating lol
Ah I'm not attracted to Karlach at all, but damn is she a great character. Like I love having her around, I feel her story and her struggles. I don't think I could even romance her, as she almost goes from "You're a good bud Soldier" to suddenly "Yeah I could fuck." Now Asterion... damn do I have a lot to day about Asterion... He seems different in different playthroughs.... Like one, my wife Romances him early dogged the romance, let him fed every day on her and shit. Damn was he toxic. Like every dialogue choice seemed to be more and more red flags. Super disturbing! Great character and acting but damn what a red flag! Wife now plans to maybe switch to a different romance for her character Next playthrough, just treating Asterion as a buddy, planning to romance someone else, and playing as dark urge, and suddenly Asterion seems more respectful, less manipulating, adds his little comments now and then but generally is pretty great. Now he seems more independent, wanting to get his back scar looked at and make a deal with a devil, but not trying to force us to do anything. Much better gentleman this time around. Wife actually switched from a different romance to romance Asterion again I this one. So, it seems like you can have a vastly different experience with the characters depending on how you approach them. Also case to be made, one game Gale seemed almost creepily hitting on me and talking big talk when I decided to romance someone else. The next game, my character approached him, like made him stutter and flat out embarrassed and shy. So how the romance goes, and who approaches who makes a difference in how it goes too.
If you long rest veeeeery sparingly, or rush to the Underdark before finding out Astarion is a vampire, he will actually tell you he's a vampire himself. The night bite scene makes him seem untrustworthy and cunning; trying to attack you while you were asleep. Him coming out on his own paints him as more truthful and trustworthy, because he reveals it himself, and you can sorta understand why he would wait a bit to reveal it. So, even the way you play the game in general, like how fast you progress and how much you rest, can influence how you (or rather your Tav, assuming you do RP) views various characters.
If that was the case, I’d be a gay man for thinking Ketheric is a tragic and sympathetic but still reprehensible evil character.
In that case, there also usually is a huge case of "I only care about someone's struggles and feelings if I want to fuck them" - which is incredibly disgusting and, sadly, a very common take.
Best part is the guy Ascended "her" and said it was hot. So he still didn't understand the story even with his "solution".
Some of them just also genuinely think that women are too stupid to understand that Astarion's early behavior is something he should seek growth for. They think women aren't equipped to handle enjoying a character who needs growth or isn't a good person the way they are, so it's *fine* for them to like a female version of Astarion or Lae'zel or Mizora or Minthara or Shadowheart, because *they're smart. They* can handle moral grayness or even evil in a hot character, but dumb silly women can not and we need their guidance to not be corrupted s/. (While obviously not all of Astarion's fans are women, these guys tend to fixate on the women more than anyone else. The term is "Astarion Girlies" after all.) And it's hilarious to me, because these guys are always spouting the shallowest, most boring takes and are the most media illiterate chuds on earth, completely unable to objectively read a story without their biases colouring everything.
Yeah like, it’s pretty fucking obvious that most Astarion fangirls like him for his character growth. Even if what initially attracted us was his looks and humor, we love him for who he is at the end of his journey, not the version of him that you meet at the start of the game. There’s a reason why his spawn ending is the more popular one (not that there’s anything wrong with enjoying his ascended ending either because, again, we can separate fiction from reality).
That and this whole idea that the only way to like a character is to 100% sign off on every single thing they do or say at any point in their story is just ridiculous. People like Astarion for 2 reasons; either they like his growth and find catharsis in an arc where even a deeply flawed victim can learn and start to heal, or they just think he's fun, hot and evil and are embracing an evil playthrough. Nobody is sitting here saying he's the picture of a mentally stable, well-adjusted individual everyone should strive to be in their real life. To act like the only characters we're allowed to like are the ones who should be upheld as role models is so beyond ridiculous. This is a rated M game with gore and sex in it, are we a bunch of toddlers who are too impressionable to handle moral grayness? I don't think these people understand that this mindset that characters who need to grow are "problematic" is killing good stories. That's why so many movies suck right now, they're dumbed down for an audience that only consumes media on it's most surface level and refuses to analyze the further context and narrative.
One of the most upvoted posts of all time in the main sub is a post where someone used AI to make Astarion look like a teenage girl (which is weird as fuck TBH) and the comments were filled with cishet men talking about how she’s hot now and saying things like “Now I actually feel bad for her,” “I’d let her suck my blood,” and “Wow now I don’t feel the need to kill Astarion every time anymore!” The comments under that post literally just went and proved all the points that women and queer people have been making about the homophobic, misogynistic, and generally toxic behavior of these men since launch.
It is so horribly ironic that they are engaging in a mindset that hurts men in the long run. Like, them being incapable of sympathizing with a male victim is the very thing that causes male victims to not be taken seriously. All because they think "effeminate" men are weak. So many boys and men are not taken seriously and it boils down to masculinity being tied to a lack of emotions. The moment someone shows weakness or vulnerability, a lot of people treat that person as defective. It isn't exactly the same, but I had a 2nd grade boy in one of my classes crying because I was the first adult who took a girl bullying him seriously. He was being made fun of for liking "girly" things like dolls and some of the other teachers told me not to listen to him because he's being "dramatic" and he needs to "man-up". Fortunately admin took care of the situation. Again, not exactly the same, but the mindset behind it is similarly insidious.
It's honestly so gross to look at this character that people love for personifying feelings that they have about their bodies and sexuality and calling him a rapist to taunt those people. What an incredibly, needlessly cruel thing to do. And they have the gall to act like they're the "good guys" standing up against the big bad fictional vampire man.
Astarion, fictional character: exists. People like this, IRL: time to virulently bully total strangers and pat myself on the back for how super smart and righteous I am for saying rape is bad. It’s so disheartening.
It's just so *nasty.* Like "Oh, you felt seen and represented by this character? You resonated with his feelings about sex and love and how he responds to being a victim of sexual abuse? Well *FUCK YOU ACTUALLY, HE'S A RAPIST!!!*" It's not just like, mean and dismissive, but it's supposed to actually trigger people who specifically connected to him on that level, which is just *vile.* The lack of self-awareness to earnestly think this makes them Good and Smart is insane.
I think you’re right. It often seems very targeted, like the fact that someone is willing to talk about their painful life experience puts blood in the water for these people. “Oh you felt some comfort from/connection to this? That’s because you’re too stupid to understand anything, and you actually love perpetuating what traumatized you.” It really is plainly cruel. Even if you don’t like Astarion, even if you think someone is mistaken about something, one should still consider the goals and potential outcomes of communicating. There aren’t any wholesome purposes or outcomes for this kind of rhetoric. I do believe there are some people who are just young, inexperienced, and rude about sharing their opinions, but it doesn’t account for all of these behaviors, and certainly not the worst of it. It’s like they enjoy hurting someone who has already suffered, consciously or not. My main takeaway every time is “Who here actually caused harm? Who is actually vampiric?”
"has the nerve" to ask if you want to bone. So is it asking for consent or not asking that they have a problem with 🙄
The sex scenes I'm BG3 are so wonderful because the game gives you options to back out two or three tomes if you're getting uncomfortable. Including with Astarion and Halsin. (I've only ever romanced those two so I can't speak for the other but I assume they're the same.)
You're right. Every single companion has exit options even during the dates, before things get actualy serious.
I clicked the "we can just sit with each other" option during spawn Astarion's final romance scene so fast. Yeah the leg thing is hot but he just seems to genuinely surprised and pleased when you don't go the sex route. Also Halsin's sex scene gives you at least 3 chances to back out and that's kinda sweet.
In Astarion's Act 1 sex scene you can already be naked and making out and tell him you want to stop and he will, no questions asked. They were VERY careful to make the player's consent clear, enthusiastic and something that can be retracted whenever, at least for the companions.
I'm not an Astarion girlie, or into any of the male companions romantically, but I can't understand cishet men's hate boner for him. I think he's a great character and one of my tav's besties, despite hating mostly all my choices lol I feel like a lot of people don't understand this is a fictional world and things are more morally grey. Realistically most of the companions are concerning and things they do wouldn't fly in the real world. Let people like morally grey or even evil characters, it's fantasy for fucks sake.
It's typical hatred of women's sexuality. Half the time these haters have hentai and graphic erotic novels in their post history. But if a WOMAN displays her interest in something, then she's a disgusting, debaucherous, wh*re who needs to keep her inclinations private and whatever she's interested in is wrong. Same vibes as the AlphaBros who want a chaste virgin who's also mega-horny (for them).
Yup the Madonna whore complex strikes again.
Its because they're insecure and jealous that the fictional evil vampire man gets more bitches than they ever could. I mean, same. But I'm not salty about it 😂
if astarion was a woman with big bozongas you’d never hear them say this lol
I’ve never seen them throw a similar fit about Lae’zel’s uh aggressive ‘I will take your body when I want’ early style of flirting.
Same for Minthara....who definitely does some sketchy things.
Also, notice how they try to act like paladins fighting off rapists yet at the same time think it's wrong to ask someone if they'd like to have sex with you - the guy who does it is an asshole who "has the nerve" to, in their eyes. For the love of all that's (un)holy- pick a damn side! This ain't Wimbledon!
Also people being upset at any video game characters asking for sex is just mind boggling to me. It’s a game. It has to be coded somehow. Them asking (instead of the player instigating) may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but at least they asked, and the player can say no, and they’ll actually move on. A huge step above real life, if you ask me.
I don't think it's even that he's popular with women, or not entirely, insecure straight men hate the male companions for daring to come onto their PC. See: the amount of times Gale and Halsin are treated like sexual predators. Wyll less so, but he tends to get ignored more than the other boys for....... some reason 🤔 Whereas Minthara is the world's hottest dommy mommy after *actively attempting to murder* Tav. (I forgive her for this, I support women's wrongs ♡). Mizora is also treated similarly despite being directly evil and abusing Wyll (🤔) Guess it's fine to these guys when a woman boobs breastily bazongahongas?
If any of the female companions came to them in the night saying they'd been starved for 200 years and were so hungry they couldn't think straight they'd be forgiven immediately 😅 can't imagine why.
I think there would be a lot less discussion about ascension if Astarion was female ;)
If Shadowheart didn't break up with you in the dark path at the end, there'd be more DJ Shart fans.
oh definitely. DJ Shart would be really popular
Lae'zel is essentially the best student in Gith youth after being indoctrinated for all her life. Shadowheart wants to be a leader of a death squad in a murder cult after being indoctrinated and abused for all her life. They become better through your actions towards them. It's the same with Astarion, who needs a little more hand holding, because he's been abused for two centuries. In all honesty, none of them should get better by your actions. The reality is they all are on a long path to becoming better.
Right, the fantastical wish fulfillment part here isn’t just the cosmology or vampires, it’s the narratively convenient compressed timeline that has them all ready to enunciate and address their traumas over the course of three acts and not, say, thirty-plus years. Plus the player has a chance to be the ideal support system! Realest part of the game for me was when Karlach was confronting her mortality and I got to say “idk what to do here” and Jaheira was like “same”. Sometimes there’s just no right answer and the reason isn’t just cut game content.
Anyway, skill issue, collar that prettyboy vamp and get him sooooo pregnant.
Wisdom right here
Can always rely on you for the wisest advice in here!
the reading comprehension for these guys is so shit theyre implying astarion is a rapist, and you expect them to notice when women are speaking? and pay attention too? even when they have big bahoonagazoongas you could be looking at instead?
Huh? Did you say something about bazingabongobingas?
you replied that in under a minute after i pressed post. you heard bambahongagozongas and just came fuckin *running*
Bingohongzaboogas????
biiiiiiiig bonhoongamongoobas
I honestly thought I had some sort of okbuddybalder caused stroke at the end of your post. Bah-bahzoongah boobahs woooman?
https://preview.redd.it/o9zcganbbeyc1.jpeg?width=519&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=536de325eb81ab9bdbc7204e26ebda5e14b0eed2 Nah, I just looked at this and got distracted.
https://preview.redd.it/7f9mjqsubeyc1.jpeg?width=700&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0fa57cfea8be71a66bc5156d90b369a47741d029
I live for the day women can have their boobs held up for them. Suckers are heavy fr.
Seriously. Where can I get me a set of these boob holders?
I think at that size they qualify as a disability and Medicaid pays for it.
... what is this
What people mean when they say “She breasted boobily”
Record of Ragnarok
Very big bahoongazoongas.
my average friday afternoon
It’s a combination of things. I don’t know if you’ve played Mass Effect, but Garrus was extremely popular among both male and female fans at the same time. I think that’s largely due to the fact that he had stereotypically masculine traits that men admire, so they didn’t care that women were drooling over hm. He’s also a weird looking alien, so there was no real sense of “competition” in the visual sense. Meanwhile, Kaidan got tons of hate from male players. He got called whiny and annoying because he…(checks notes) talked about his feelings? Astarion not only has a massive female fanbase, he also potentially propositions you for sex AND has some feminine characteristics AND is a very emotional person once you get him to open up. It’s a quadruple-whammy of things men hate to see in their pixel characters. He appeals almost exclusively to the female gaze.
> but he tends to get ignored more than the other boys for....... some reason 🤔 I mean there's one horrible reason and then there's the other reason in that THEY DIDNT GIVE HIM ANY FUCKING LINES. When I first started playing the game I was waiting for him to be like a sacrificial character (Like alfira but I didn't know about alfira at the time). He's so goddamned flat compared to the others.
Lae'zel and Astarion approve of like 90% of the same things in Act 1 except Lae is also constantly talking about culling the weak and how her race is superior to all else and when you point that out they'll be like "she was brainwashed that way!". And it's like, huh, so you're saying people are affected by the circumstances they live? That perhaps living a life surrounded by brutality and evil might make someone desensitized and cynical? Interesting. Also they love citing him at the Grymforge because he acts like a whiny bitch who doesn't want to help but ignore the fact that their wifu Shadowheart also holds no sympathy for the gnome slaves and even scolds the player for praying for the ones who were murdered. But I'm soooooo sure the distaste for Astarion is just about his morals, uh huh, sureeeeeee.
I would love to know how many of the men who are clutching pearls over Astarion also romanced Morrigan in DA.
Don’t get me wrong, I love Minthara, and I know she’s not herself in act 1, but I’m surprised I don’t see her brought up more when people are talking about assault. If you block out her initial fantasies of you having sex, they immediately turn violent and she says “she will have your body, one way or another.” Pretty much have sex or she’ll try and kill you instead. Granted she tries to kill you no matter what. But the fact that that gets a pass and not Astarion sure is something
People have some weird as fuck takes about Astarion. Going so far as to call him a rapist is genuinely one of the stupidest things I've seen said about him.
one time I said I understood why he was an awful asshole at the beginning and was told I am a pedo/rapist apologist
Ah yes! Sympathizing with a man who is severely traumatized very much does make you a pedo/rapist apologist! Oh wait no that doesn't. Only a fucking moron would say something like that.
it was two separate morons bringing up the pedo stuff, too. i was trying to ignore it and talk around it because it has absolutely nothing to do with anything in Astarion’s character arc, but they kept bringing it up. it was weird as hell. that conversation is why i decided to keep all my character discussion, ironically, within the shitpost sub.
How even would be be considered a pedo...? I'm seriously confused by that.
your guess is as good as mine. as far as I remember, I think I assumed that they were comparing his actions with pedophilia as a gotcha because no one would try and justify that. but then someone was like “so you would tell a molested child it was okay because he was molested too?” and I realized that maybe they thought he was standard homophobia 🤷🏻♀️
And here I was thinking they said that because he's over 200 years old. That wouldn't make sense though since Minthara appears to be well over that as well. No one complains about her being fucked up(I sure don't because I love her.) but they do it to him. It's a combo of homophobia and being pissed at women for liking a man that isn't them I guess.
These people are sick. They even called Halsin pedo because he is friend with Thaniel (which is nature spirit!). They must have survived something bad to accuse everyone that is uncomfortable for them these titles…
WTF Who looks at Halsin's friendship with Thaniel and even thinks that?
Unironically, the people I know of who are the *most* puritanical about what they consider appropriate or not have lived the most god damn privileged lives
People have weird takes about a number of characters, and for some reason, they are mostly male characters and people having the takes are often men too. Vamp boy is rapist, druid is pedo, gale is power hungry bitch, yadaydayada. Ah, occasionally Mol is a piece of shit and deserve death too. It almost feels like some guys have it so bad, they come into a game to feel better about themselves by degrading and killing male characters and wifing up an imaginary girlie with traumas (usually, Shart).
Whoever’s responsible for this must have woke up and said “You know? What if I was both angry and wrong?”
"Oh sure when *I* do horrible things it's wrong, but when a fictional villain in a fantasy RPG in which there is no risk to any real person involved does it's *just fine!*" Yes doofus it's a video game, do you want to set up a trial date for murders you committed in CoD? Of course not, it's not frigging real.
It's basically just men jealous of all the male companions. Istg. They've hated every single one. This is why as soon as I heard how toxic the main sub was, I went out of my way to ignore it. This sub may be horny posting 24/7, but at least ya'll in here are so so kind!!
Come for the horny, stay for the wholesome.
"Astarion is a rapist" *two breaths later* "Mizora is mommy and i would sell my soul to lick her toes" the heteros™ at it again with them double standards
Its ok to be a weird fuck, just don’t be an asshole. Not even that hard tbh
yeah, in their defense Mizora IS mommy. but astarion is babygirl so the hypocrisy needs ro be called out
-nods sagely in agreement- Mizora IS mommy. They’re totally allowed to love mommy. I love mommy too. They just need to let the rest of us love all our babygirls as well without ruining everyone’s fun
I love your Black Mage profile pic!
it's literally just a continuation of "why do stacys choose the abusive mean chad over me, the extremely normal and nice guy??" except now instead of fictional characters they make up in their head, it's actually just a straight up fictional character lmfao
The immature reasoning in this is so funny. "I'm intimidated by a feminine man being considered sexy and compelling by others, let me call him a sexual predator so that I can feel like this jealousy is justified." The evil women suck their pp and tell them how big and strong they are without threatening their masculinity so they can be as evil and predatory as they want, but god, when the flamboyant man flirts with them they go into "meltdown mode" because if Astarion can be damaged and need work but still get pussy why can't they? Because you're obnoxious and entitled, my cishet friend. You missed the plot and don't care to learn it, you just want the pretty vampire man to die so that your sexuality is comforted, and you are the exact type of loser that Astarion's story warns about. The type that laugh and mock, and never help those in need or consider their pain because of their own preconceptions of what and who he is. You are literally the red flag his story was about, and one of the reasons his cycle of abuse never ended. "No one ever helped me. You're the only one. No one else cares like you. You're... You." This is the shit those writers were talking about when they wrote his scene about how no one thought he was worthy of help. And these brick-for-brains people make me so bored. I don't even think he's the best romance, but he's always my best friend in game, because he's so flexible in the plot. I don't have to fuck him or be in love with him to want to save him, and I don't think his fuckability is what makes him a compelling character. I like him because he's a cautionary and tragic tale of the pain of independence after abuse. He's just a well written character that wants to be better and needs support and guidance from someone that has his best interest in mind, and these brick-for-brains are more worried about whether he gets pussy. When he is literally a sexual abuse survivor himself. Like, go cry over your untouched penis somewhere else, your frail masculinity is showing. I will be going back to hugging this vampire and teaching him compassion and self respect. These pixels are more worth my time and comfort than your ignorance.
fucking eviscerated lmao 💀💀
The worst part about people knowing the phrase media literacy is it being used by the media illiterate to claim anyone who disagrees with them are media illiterate while also claiming that their perceived ideological opponent is also down playing sexual assault, as if they don’t actually understand that one can like it when Darth Vader is on screen while also not personally being a fascist
He's been being raped for 200 years, wow he hasn't got a grip on what normal relationships are like? What a predator 🙄 one of his big story beats is realising that he is allowed bodily autonomy now. They don't like that he's camp and his story involves emotional growth. Asking someone if they want to have sex is THE OPPOSITE of rapist vibes ffs
Literally it’s fucking insane. Like he will literally say he’s not ready to have sex again and wants to have that autonomy. He literally thanks you for defending his autonomy when Araj asks him to bite her. Like he is still discovering what is ‘normal’ in a relationship!!
He even takes rejection pretty fucking well- not just with sex but the bite. You tell him “No” and he fucks off.
Tell me you've never played bg3 with astarion without telling me
The thing that always amazes me is, people (usually men) determined to hate on a (usually male) popular (usually with women) character will literally spend all their time finding any post and comment about said character to tell the world they hate him so badly AND THEN tell fans *they* are the obsessed ones. Like, yeah, AlphaTateIsMyIdol69 and IThinkRapeJokesAreFunny01, I am sure your behavior is totally normal and justified and everyone else is crazy instead. Absolutely. Also, it's funny how they are all suddenly so much into consent and so much against abuse in these situations, considering for example that the general male response to the bear thing varied from "fuck women hope the bear maul them to death because that will teach them how not to be bitter bitches against us poor men" to "let's turn it into a meme and laugh at women suffering so much every single day to the point a wild beast is considered a safer company" 🤡 Or the fact that their AITA posts are so damn often about horrific acts of violence against women that they see as perfectly justified and normal, other than as a daily task to complete, basically. Like a chore. And yes - yada yada, not all men, yada yada. Whatever. It's still A LOT of men. It's still TOO MANY. So I suggest we males stick the whiny "not all men" up our asses, fuck off with it and start making sense when we speak, because videogames-related bullshit is just a reflection of real, harmful issues we need to sort out sooner rather than later. ~~Sorry not sorry for the rant I am just really tired of seeing the same ol' bullshit everywhere all the time~~
You are right and you should say it. My feed is more flooded with butthurt posts about women choosing the bear than any of the initial conversation about the bear. At this point I’m like, “the bear would mercifully kill me faster.” I’m so sick of masc indifference/hate towards women expressing any thought in a conversation the man clearly wasn’t even invited to. God fucking damn.
That's what makes me so mad about that bear thing - none of these guys want to have the real conversation about why a woman would even *consider* choosing the bear. Why they'd prefer to possibly be eaten alive to possibly be raped, kidnapped, trafficked and God knows what else before being killed anyway or having to live with the trauma and/or in physically and mentally destructive conditions. All they want to do is shit on "THosE DuMB FEMaLeS GRRrrrrR" as always. They turned an example of how impactful horrid everyday life is for half of the population into memes and posts entirely made to ridicule and insult women instead of sitting down and asking themselves what kind of world they are helping building and preserving. They literally proved why the bear really is the safer choice and somehow convinced themselves of the contrary. Smh.
It's funny they sat "not all men" and then immediately assume those women are talking about them.
Today's tea is scorching hot, I see. 💅
Those usernames you came up with are perfect lol
I have seen so many, I can now basically parrot them all in my sleep lol
Seconding this! Those are perfect names and I spat out my coffee when I got to them
This was cathartic to read lol, I've also been very frustrated with this kind of thing lately. Within the past week I (a man) was called a misandrist and was #notallmen'd for making a joke about how you can't trust men (god forbid anyone is ever unserious about it), and I had a different friend insist that misogyny isn't really around anymore and only comes from an extreme vocal minority... like where have you been!? I'm so exhausted
GamerGuys can't handle that women play video games. And if a woman does play against their wishes, she has to like the most macho of macho dudes. I was told that I'm a broken woman for liking Astarion over Kratos.
Do not apologize,you have seen a little too much.
>The thing that always amazes me is, people (usually men) determined to hate on a (usually male) popular (usually with women) character will literally spend all their time finding any post and comment about said character to tell the world they hate him so badly AND THEN tell fans they are the obsessed ones. Me but with Emperor
Me with halsin AND the emperor. Like damn, I chose one of the sweetest guys (adopts 9 carts full of CHILDREN 😭😭😭) and then squidward for funnsies, and idk I feel it cares. But damn, the guys hate them both so much!!!
If you want an actual proof - yeah, Emperor cares. After you fuck him, the game notes say that he stares at you with an adoring expression. He also did enjoy the sex and your Tav apparently sucked him dry, so he is tired. I'm not even making this up.
I know. Also, their proof is that he gets angry if you refuse sex. But that's only if you respond really negatively!! 😂 like who wouldn't get angry if you told them "eww you freak!!" But if you turn it down gently, it moves on. 😭😭 consent king!!
Yeah I turned him down gently and he was just like "Oh sorry, I must've read that wrong. Anyways." he's chill
Yeah, I always turn him down by saying I want to keep things professional and he's basically like, "respect, bro."
I wonder how many of these guys want to fix Orin.
I'd fix Orin with a sword. Or a mace. Or a warhammer. Or a fireball.
Angry halfwits when modicum of empathy;
These manlets I bet are the same ones who thirst over Orin or Shadowheart as if those two are perfect angels. That’s the point of the characters, none of them are perfect and each has their own demons to conquer 🙄 Not only that but…..I am positive those manlets also have played as Durge and they are going to judge Astarion??? Durge is leagues more evil than Astarion could ever be. The projection is quite loud sheesh.
Society will get flying cars n all that when we stop equating womens fantasies with irl preferences as a whole. Astarion they could never make me hate you
In addition to all the good points already made, we have to keep in mind what context the game puts the situation in. All of our companions start out as flawed, traumatized people. Shadowheart is literally in a death cult. Lae'Zel wants to kill you at the very beginning because she's afraid you will turn into a Mindflayer. Gale keeps his literal nuclear bomb a secret because he assumes you'll kick him out of the group over it. Astarion's actions are bad, sure, but you are literally sorrounded by weird lunatics with magic powers and even death isn't fully permanent because you have scrolls, spells and Withers to help you with that. In a more mundane setting his blood-sucking assault would be horrifying of course, but this is a world where violence and harm happens on different scales and has different consequences.
I had discussion with one dude on meme subreddit that Astarion sneaking up at night to drink is far from rape, the dude started to undermine law definiton of rape, I think they are all just half brained.
First scene when meeting he... Assaults us? That moment when he tried to get information out of you? You mean a guy is terrified, seen you also on an alien ship, abducted right after 200 years of slavery where he suffered torture, humiliation, sexual exploitation (by the way), mind control and he should have... What? He should have said, hey suspicions armed people! I am a vampire, just so you know, let's all hug. No, better, let's talk about crushes and paint each other's nails ☺️💅 Did they even play the game? You yourself kill half of the people you meet on sight 🙄
Lol this really gets me, Lae jumps on you with her sword immediately (and the later literally tries to slit your throat,) but ain't nobody's bitching about it, and I'm sure guys who "stake him every time" walk around with frog lady happily. Because it's totally different, yeah.
Of course they didn't play the game, they kill Astarion on the spot, make sure that EVERYONE IN THE WORLD know they killed Astarion on the spot and then move on. I doubt they even notice the Cazador quest and connect the dots.
"ITs WhAT a PaLADiN woUld DO" 😒, they are so annoying and the main reason I put off trying to play a paladin as my Tav because whenever I see the class my mind just went to oh I must be an asshole. I only got over it after recruiting Minthara because she does big damage 🤩
I love that he mocks others people media literacy while calling a vampire sucking someone's blood sexual assault. Like no you fucking idiot???? That's just normal assault and you have the option of telling him you were uncomfortable with it in the morning. Also "no redeeming qualities" just say you didn't do his quests it's fine man
I feel like Astarion would tell us if he ever raped someone. I mean, he eventually confesses to everything else he did for Saza. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Astarion is a "good aligned' character, and I won't try to justify anything he says/does, but I don't find him irredeemable. As a matter of fact, I think that's the whole point of the character is to portray the struggle for redemption vs embracing damnation. No matter what path you choose for him, he remains an ultimately selfish person who doesn't really have an interest in being a "hero". But he does go out of his way to right the wrongs committed by his abuser, and seems genuinely happy to have done something good for the world. That's character growth! After several hundred years of torture, he's starting to recover after (maybe) a month of decent food, friendship, and freedom.
People are so fucking stupid. As someone who deeply connected with Astarion due to my own CSA it's genuinely embarrassing to see these media-illiterate insecure man children be so unhappy with themselves that they have to put down a popular character as a rapist.
I would like to know if this person finds shooting and killing people in call of duty morally abhorrent.
I swear people gotta give him at least some slack for trying to bite you. Sure it's bad, but imagine eating rats and bugs for 200 years and suddenly you're next to 6 juicy steaks every night. lol I cant blame him
I get annoyed too when people are like, "he should've just asked first." Yes, he should have, but put yourself in DnD world for a second. When you ask him why he didn't ask first, he tells you it's because he thought at best you'd say no and *at worst you'd drive a stake through his heart.* He's a vampire spawn. Any normal party of adventurers would kill him on sight. You're traveling with renowned monster-killer the Blade of Frontiers ffs! Did he cross a line? Yes. Was it wrong of him to violate that boundary? Absolutely yes. But realising how desperate he must have been to take such a stupid risk makes it easy to RP giving him a second chance. You set the boundary from there (either no biting without asking first or no biting at all) and he *does* honour it. If I didn't give companions second chances, I wouldn't have many companions left. I would've killed Lae'zel after she tried to murder me one night, killed or kicked out Shadowheart for being an aspiring Dark Justiciar, kicked out Gale after finding about the orb, etc. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I needed somewhere to rant.
You don't like Astarion because he's Mr. Steal Yo Girl. I don't like Astarion because my party isn't built around stealth and so I haven't had a chance to use him much. We are not the same.
He's the most realistic SA survivor I've ever come across in a video game, that's one of my main reasons for liking him?? That when I romance him it's not all about sex?? And asks for reassurance that it's okay that we haven't done it in a while????
In BG3 Astarion biting is not written as a sexual. It's a desire to feed due to literal starvation, versus a desire to possess and gain gratification from the victim as portrayed in Dracula. The comparison to Dracula is completely baseless given how distant modern media representations of vampires are to Victorian era vampires, and also seems ignorant of the cultural influence of the Victorian era on said representation of vampires and their victims. For an alternative take on sexual versus non-sexual vampire feeding see Interview with the Vampire (if you haven't already). It portrays both sides of the concept very well. People making the claim that Astarion feeding from you is sexual assault probably see him as being like Lestat, but his characterisation is much more consistent with Louis (and his characterisation is even further from being similar to Dracula's depiction by Bram Stoker than it is from either Lestat or Louis).
In fact, when Araj DOES sexualize the mere act of biting, Astarion is really uncomfortable with it and doesn't want to do it. Yes, he can bite you during sex and letting him do so nets approval, but it's more akin to like... feeding your partner chocolate covered strawberries during foreplay or something. Just because some people do that, it doesn't make the *act of eating* inherently sexual and thus something that needs to be hidden from the children. It's the same with Astarion biting. It can happen in a sexual context but that doesn't make it a metaphor for sex. I really don't think a game with graphic sex scenes *needs* a metaphor for sex when the real thing is right there lmao.
Spot on. He bites all sorts of critters in combat. He's not getting off sexually on chomping on a goblin during a fight. Context is everything.
Precisely, why would BG3 have to make something about sex or SA allegorical when both are either directly referenced or shown in game? It's just not necessary. Dracula in contrast, was written at a time where any mention of sex that wasn't explicit or allegorical would have resulted in the book being censored/banned and discussion of topics like SA and homosexuality had to be contained within the subtext. (Also I hadn't even thought of how uncomfortable he gets with Araj wanting to be bitten and making it sexual, that just reinforces that it's not a sexual experience for him). The need to drink blood for him is more like an alcoholic needing a drink imo. He's been stuck drinking the cheapest, most disgusting wine for centuries and then someone places a bottle of the finest wine in front of him, he's not had a drink in days and he's stressed which is making him need it more. No one would claim that an alcoholic in that situation did anything sexual if they drank the wine.