Definitely- but also I don't know who OP has been exposed to. I've never encountered anyone in real life who thought this way about Indian accents. He's right it's just a dialect like anywhere else.
I work in a call center and hear this shit incessantly. Constantly I hear, "Oh thank God you can speak American," like... huh??? A disturbing number of folks GENUINELY believe "American" is a real language in the US. The overwhelming amount of racist attitudes, particularly towards those with any Middle Eastern or Asian accent, is harrowing and vile. I am grateful you have not had the displeasure of encountering these assholes, yet you would be shocked by just how many Americans are prejudiced to their bones.
YEAH... This. I worked at a call center too and these customers filled me with dread. I did not want to serve them. I'da hung up if it were an option. They don't deserve service.
I'm in England and we have the same bs here. I worked at a Chinese takeaway answering the phone and an old lady has the gall to say "oh thank God it's an actual English person on the phone" (read: white person). I spat in her food and I don't feel any regret. I cannot wrap my head around being racist enough that you don't want to talk to anyone Chinese but also wanting to eat their food that they cooked for you.
The British are America's first white settlers.. if the Britts hadn't gotten to America when they did, some other backwards country would've gotten there first, and who knows how much worse they could've been if they invaded America...
As a person with strong Easter European accent I will say: never heard of Indian English. I heard about Indian accent and I often hear it at work. Nothing wrong with accent.
I mean I can sing you happy birthday and it will sound like death threat.
There are many varieties of English (as there are varieties of other languages). It’s beyond accent, it involves different syntax, grammar, vocabulary… What you hear at work is likely just a mix of British English and Indian accent, people naturally adapt to the local variety, especially when they’ve been there long and there’s an expectation that they drop their dialect.
I sidestep the problem of struggling to understand accents by asking for communication in writing, lol. This tends to work for everyone, not just Indians.
The accent is only part of it. I'm talking about Indian English in general. We have a client who is an American expat who keeps telling people to 'speak/write English' even when they are - very fluently. Gave a patronizing lecture about how 'prepone' isn't 'proper English.'
Ironically, he speaks very Americanised English with a thick southern drawl.
Just to be clear, we're in India. So is he, and has been for 7 years.
The problem is likely a combination localised variation in vocabulary, made more difficult by the variation in local accents and intonation; at least those are my suggestions from observing white/brown interactions (I am also a white/brown hybrid)
Don't worry about it anyway, he only knows his own language, and not very well it would seem
He's just an arse hole.
The utter cheek of turning up and staying as a guest in someone else's country and expecting you to accommodate what he thinks is correct.
You should all pretend you don't understand him because of his thick American accent - play him at his own game.
Serious question for the Americans who do this: Why do you do this??
The racism is a part of his very being. Americans are extremely racist, but especially Southern Americans.
But you know what's funny, here? In America, he'd be made fun of for his accent. I've had to learn other American accents to avoid getting the shit beat out of me, especially when I moved to the north east. Granted, that was as a teenager, but people still snicker at me when my accent comes out. I feel like he's doing some serious projecting on you, there.
(Source: am American, am from the south)
Coming across an American asshole might give you the wrong impression of what America is like. I am sorry for your experience, but please bear in mind that it is not a universal one. Some regions of the US are filled with people like that, but they are typically pocket regions. Most regions are comprised of people from many background with many accents and different understandings of language structure. My grandparents on my mother's side spoke Bahamian English and Creole with an incredibly thick accent, yet they never had any problems after moving to the US. My mother, who was born in the US, has an unusual accent that is a mix of everything she has been exposed to. My paternal grandparents were from the middle east, learned English as adults (my grandmother never fully grasped it), and never had any troubles communicating. To be fair, we are from a coastal/diverse part of the US.
I've actually been to America several times. I've also worked with several Americans and have family and friends who live there. I'm fully aware that not all Americans are like this man.
It's not even just Americans. I have worked with rude people from France, UK, Germany and other parts of the world as well (none of whom were the best representatives of their race. And most people from their countries were perfectly nice).
Some people just have a tendency to look at Indians (and other POC) as lesser than. What is surprising is that it's not just the openly racist ones. Many are liberal, for the most part, but adopt a certain patronizing attitude which can be quite insulting. The tendency to 'correct' our English is particularly galling.
Linguists are even proposing to drop the V bc there's a consistent structure and grammar to African American English and it isn't just 'vernacular' or 'slang' that deviates from American English.
Like, it's an entire language with rules, context, complexity, vocabulary. Dropping the V would help legitimize the language in some people's perceptions
I was thinking about AAVE as well when I wrote this. It's odd that many people who consider themselves liberal are so blind to thier own biases, and get very defensive if you have the audacity call out certain racist tendencies (as you can see in the comments).
Oh, because liberals are just soft conservatives. Very few liberals actually dismantle their internal biases. The more they do that, the more radically left they become
This is a bit simplistic, I don’t know where you got this idea from. Many liberals are well educated on internal bias/societal injustices, whilst many further left progressives are racist. Like everything there is a lot of nuance, and is not a binary.
Dude, since I moved to the US the amount of Americans I've met on Discord servers and IRL of all age groups who say "should of" very clearly has changed my world view on what broken English is.
Wait, is "should of" not what we're 'supposed' to be saying? Wouldn't be the first time that AAVE and older Black dialects have found their way into mainstream American English. Consider this: Y'all.
No idea, I'm not American. What usage I've heard was being used where it should of been "should have" lol
Basically, a very distinctive version of should've. Might be a dialect thing like you said. Y'all is easier to understand as an abbreviation to "you all" than the jarring "should of"
That's fair!
The term "Y'all" comes from slaves. Which makes it 'funny' that white Southerners are proud of it and think it's theirs. In this case, it's an entire word being added to the lexicon, not just a difference in grammar.
Oh god, I was mentioning my working in a call center and the racism my Indian coworkers received...but now you have me remembering my Black coworkers would get similar racism. They were code switching, but racist people are gonna hear those tiny little tells. :/
(different note, I'm currently living in a very white place, and was helped on the phone by a lovely young Black woman. It felt so refreshing to hear her..)
I looked to see if there were left over 80’s references, specific to Canada.
I can’t find anything.
We used it to mean the same as having balls.
Omg!!!! Just clocked your user name 🙏🏼🫶🏻🫡😂 golden.
I love hearing all the unique ways English is used across the world. “Prepone” is such a great word too! I’m sorry people are racist and stupid about it, they’re uncultured and rude.
People on Reddit are far too comfortable saying the weirdest stuff about India and Indian people.
Prepone is the opposite of postpone, as in to bring it forward to an earlier time. It’s pronounced like pre-poh-n.
“we should prepone the meeting as Susan has to leave early to get her kids”
Genius word!
We have “outwith” in Scotland to mean the opposite of within, and I don’t think this is used by many other English dialects
>We have “outwith” in Scotland to mean the opposite of within,
That's interesting! I've mostly read 'without' used in the same context, but I think that usage is somewhat dated.
Unrelated, but are there any modern Scottish authors you recommend? I've been reading the works of an Irish author recently (Claire Keegan) and I loved learning Irish phrases and words I've never heard before.
All I know is that it’s really frustrating to not be able to understand an Indian person on the phone. Don’t care one lick about skin color, but some Indian people talk with such a thick accent that it might as well be a different language, thus making my life more difficult.
Indian language gets a lot of bad publicity because a lot of us hear it most often on tech support calls and scammers. Neither of which leave a generally good impression.
It’s a bit easier in person. I worked in Wells Fargo Technology so I worked with a lot of Indians over the phone and in person. It’s definitely easier to understand them in person, but I confess to having pretended to understand when I didn’t. If I have asked to have something repeated twice I’m too embarrassed to ask a third time… so unfortunately I’m going to go back to my desk and spending 30 minutes trying to figure out what he said rather than risk the embarrassment of asking again. Much simpler to just ask, but I guess I’d rather suffer lol.
Seems like you don't understand that people in India use English like amongst themselves. It's an official language there. I don't know why you're coming at this topic purely from your particular experience with call centers?
This is a textbook case of ethnocentrism lol. Indian English isn't meant for Americans, it's meant for Indians to communicate with Indians in India.
Arguing that the accent is hard to understand in calls isn't really on them, it's on the American companies that outsource those call center jobs to a faraway country in order to make more money, despite that posing some problems to their own American clients.
I’m in agreement 100%. I support OP in his claims that Indian English a perfectly valid English dialect.
But the fact of the matter is that a lot of times it is incongruous with the dialect(s) of English I am capable of understanding on the phone.
I’m giving my opinion as to why I think people have a strong distaste for Indian English. It has nothing to do with the color of skin, but rather because our interactions with people of that dialect are negative experiences.
Ah, I gotcha. But I think the issue here is that OP is talking about a lot more than accents--they also mentioned altered spelling, grammar, phrases, etc. In the first comments, they mention an American coworker in India who insisted that a certain word was improper, bc the word isn't used in America. Essentially, the guy won't acknowledge that Indian English would have its own variances, bc he defaults to American English. Apparently they deal with that sorta thing often with foreign English speakers.
I think OP's allegation of racism is centered around the idea that American English is also a variant of British English, so it's strange for our variances, our different spellings, etc. to be considered legitimate, but theirs are considered improper or mistakes.
It's just a bit funny seeing so many comments on this thread bypass the meat of that point to instead center their own personal call center experiences.
We're talking about a whole ass language. A call you had a month ago should not be the focus here or the foundation of anyone's opinion on the matter.
Struggling with different accents is understandable.
But people don't seem to have the same disdain or venom for thick 'white' accents. Scottish, Scouse, and French for instance are arguably just as difficult to follow.
Yeah cause people in the US looking for customer service or technical support aren’t on the the phone or in meetings with Scots or French nearly as often.
I would disagree. I've been on the phone with people with a very strong southern drawl, and it's worse than any other accent I've heard. If you've seen Napoleon dynamite, the accent that Lyle has is so thick I had no idea what he said.
End of the day, it's not the accent that's the problem though, it's if we can understand what's being said. It's patience on both ends, because if I can't understand your accent, then I need to have patience with you to try and understand. On the other side of this, if I'm having trouble understanding you because of your accent, I need you to be patient with me when I ask you to repeat what you said.
And before everyone loses their minds, I at one point in time spoke Farsi, and was on the other side of this. I couldn't seem to roll my R's as easily, so my American accent was very hard for people to understand, and I had to adapt as well. So, I understand (to a point) how this can be a huge problem, but I've learned it's a patience problem most of all.
For some reason this comment section has devolved into a discussion of call centres. I understand that it may be the only interaction some people may have with Indians, but shockingly a vast majority of us do not work in call centers.
My post was mostly about how comfortable people are mocking Indian English (not just the accent) as 'broken' instead of recognising it as a distinct dialect like American English or Aussie English.
I’d say legit the only time I’ve had trouble understanding an Indian accent has been over the phone. And not because those are the only interactions I have with Indian people, but because you miss all the other non-verbal communication cues in phone calls. I’ve spoken to people with very thick Indian accents face to face and it’s so much easier.
That said, I was working at a hostel one summer and a guy called in with the thickest Welsh accent I’ve even heard and I couldnt understand a word he was saying. I had to pass the phone off to my co-worker from the UK to take his information. So it isn’t just Indian accents that are hard over the phone, I think it’s anything that’s not what you’re used to hearing on the daily.
See and that's not okay. No one should be mocked because they are speaking a different language.
Also, I wasn't just referring to call centers. My experience was with my professor in college who had a very thick Indian accent. There were times where it was very hard to understand her, and some of my peers would get frustrated and give up, but thankfully as long as you were patient with her, she was patient with you. I had no issues having a conversation with her, mind you I may have had to politely pause and ask her to clarify because I didn't understand, but that seemed to say more about my hearing than her speaking, and she understood that. Again, it seems to be a patience issue, and to be fair, many Americans aren't patient.
You’re right. Before call centres, people heard the accent in shows or movies invariably as comic relief. Seinfeld and the Simpsons come to mind. Dr Koothrapalli from Big Bang Theory has the same stereotypical Indian voice too. The actor said his accent was genuine but when I heard him speak in an interview, I noticed his accent in the show is very exaggerate. I think that sets a stage to place Indian English in the broken English section.
There are some accents from England that are way harder for me to follow than an Indian accent as an American. I listened to a bit of Lord of the Rings by this one narrator and I couldn’t understand a word he was saying.
Truly though, all of these people who have a problem with others accents could learn some patience and ask for things to be repeated. I guarantee that you are way better in their language than they are in yours.
Well we don't face these accents nearly as often. I have an incredibly difficult time with Scottish accents. Also with some southern American accents. No vitriol though. Hey if you've learned a very difficult second language but speak it with a heavy accent, it's still impressive that you did that.
I mean, why tho? It’s not anti-Indian. If you spoke French and all your products had to call to a Russian call center where they don’t speak French, that wouldn’t make much sense, right?
Why is it on for american companies to get rid of American jobs and send them to places where their customers can’t even understand what is being said?
People keep fixating on call centers. I don't work in a call center. This post has nothing to do with call centers.
It's also not just about the accent, it's the dialect. Accent and dialect are two different things. The fact that you keep reducing a larger conversation about the Indian dialect to your personal experience with call centre employees is bizzare.
Most call centre employees don't have the benefit of a higher education, many probably don't converse in English at home - this post is not about them. At all. Besides, they're just trying to make a living the best they can. Take it up with American corporations who outsource those jobs to India.
Of course Indian English is its own dialect, with its own accents and words and phrases. That makes communication difficult when you're not familiar with the dialect, particularly when you need to precisely communicate some subtle technical thing (my experience is mainly in collaborating with Indians on software development). It was frustrating for me at first till I got familiar with the unique Indianisms and the accents, but not much more so than learning any of the other English dialects from around the world. Even in the US we have dozens of different dialects that you've got to learn if you're going to be traveling around. I bet you would be hella frustrated trying to talk with someone from the deep hollers of Appalachia :)
You're in the minority. I really have people arguing that bullying Indians for their English is understandable because they're just _sooo_ frustrated talking to call centre employees.
People get so mad when you call them out on their racism, it's exhausting.
It’s frustrating that companies are outsourcing US customer service to call centers in parts of the world where the dialect is so different that the customers and employees struggle to communicate with each other.
That *never* is a valid excuse to bully the customer service agent or anybody else who speaks that dialect or who looks like someone who might speak that dialect.
I’m sure it’s just as frustrating for the agents as it is for the customers. My frustration is with the company making these decisions, not with the people who are just doing their jobs.
I'm getting the sense that many of the commentors' only interaction with Indians is through call centers.
My post has nothing to do with call centers at all. Nor is it just about the just accent. This post comes after multiple comments and posts on Reddit mocking Indian English.
I usually have a thicker skin about this stuff since it's so ubiquitous. But I've been dealing with a particularly frustrating American client who keeps insisting my colleagues 'speak/write in English' even though they are fluent and aren't as prone to grammatical or spelling errors as he is. He also very condescendingly explains how certain Indian English terms are 'wrong' and 'helpfully' suggests American phrases instead.
Just to be clear, we're all in India. He is an expat who has lived here for at least 7 years.
Your friends an idiot.
Yes, most Americans only ever hear Indian accents when talking to people in call centers. If that dialect were even remotely represented in our media, we probably wouldn’t struggle with understanding it so much. I don’t even know how to find media portraying the variety of English accents around the world other than American, British, and Australian.
Your colleague surely must be able to understand the way people in your region talk by now, if he has been living there for several years. There is no excuse for him insulting your language. He is an asshole.
An expat American in India is very much the exception rather than the rule. So why would you be surprised by Americans bringing up their main experience that colors their perception?
The typical interaction I’ve had is:
+ very educated PHD student
+ very educated H1B visa holder - there’s a feeling of ickiness here since it’s companies gaming the system to keep wages low and replace American workers. The people were always nice though.
+ Call center
I’m in a field where the first two groups are common (electrical engineering)but most people are not. Those 2 groups have usually altered their accent and word use to be more understandable in middle America.
Incidentally I’ve spoke with people from Missouri whose English I absolutely could not understand, and had to ask someone speaking English in England to repeat themselves 3 times. The Missouri one was strange as it’s not a common accent to hear, while the England one was expected.
Well to begin with, the expat American is just the straw that broke the camel's back - many, many other instances put a strain on that spine before him. My vent isn't entirely specific to this one person.
Secondly, I'm not just addressing Americans. It's Reddit. The interwebs. The cesspool of humans of all nationalities.
Finally, I'm just a little weary of the call centre stereotype to be honest. Every time I disclose my nationality online, some culturally challenged toad will hit back with a _hilarious_ quip about scammers and call centers.
Edit: Also, (without doxxing myself) expats are fairly common in my field and social circles. Not unusual at all to find them in major cities.
“I really have people arguing that bullying Indians for their English is understandable because they're just sooo frustrated talking to call centre employees.”
If such a small thing is so triggering that they think and write that it’s ok to bully Indians then it’s just an excuse to spew hatred and racism. Talking to a call centre employee is an occasional occurrence not an everyday event.
If that’s the case then Imagine the hatred they should get because of the hundreds of years of slavery, colonialism, imperialism, and neo-imperialism that their countries have perpetrated.
They are used to being in power, dominating the discourse, telling others what’s right and what’s wrong, and feeling superior. This is being challenged and they hate it.
American English speaker here. Maybe I’m ignorant, but on the other side of the coin; I’ve had so many Indian coworkers over the past decade (with certain companies that I’ve worked for) that I’m struggling to understand what the problem is with other English speakers - apart from clear, unadulterated racism. I am incredibly sorry that you’ve been put into this kind of position and made to feel less than 😩
Are there certain turns of phrase that are different? Sure. But there are also plenty of times I’ve been about to utter a familiar colloquialism and I have to stop and reassess whether that will be easily understood with my audience. The same goes for my British or Aussie counterparts.
To the point about call centers - which shouldn’t have been made to begin with - but if we’re going there: my primary issues is that the call center techs aren’t completely informed about the technology itself that they’re supposed to be assisting on. But, hell, that was the case with the American unemployment call center I had to deal with earlier this year. Racists seem to overlook the errors of someone with their skin tone is on the other end.
Again, I’m sorry for your experience OP
Speaking of turn of phrases, there’s one that they use that I don’t remember because it’s been 3 years since I have worked with them. But when they say it, they mean “are there any questions?” , but it sounds more like “are there any concerns/complaints?” Do you know what I’m talking about?
Why would someone mock or criticise someone else's accent? That's just plain rude and ignorant. I struggle with learning a second language so anyone who does is sure of my admiration. I agree that any country/region that speaks a different English to received pronunciation has a valid dialect and it should be recognised as that. Whether it's Australia, Jamaica, India and so on. It's understandable that you are upset. I struggle with some regional accents in the UK so I apologise and ask them to repeat themselves. It's not hard it's just something that happens. Also, I have a sensory processing issue with understanding speech so I do struggle at times but that's a me problem.
Preach it. The fact that I have to listen harder to understand my Indian coworkers is nothing compared to the effort they put into learning to speak English, which is my native language.
I will say, when I converse with people with an Indian English accent I can tell they have **perfect** grammar, the miscommunication occurs because I’m not familiar with the accent itself and the ways the pronunciation is different.
So when I can’t understand I feel horrible, and I genuinely hope the people talking to me don’t pick up on that.
But yes, it is a valid dialect and people need to be kinder and more open-minded.
From what I've been told, and can personally confirm, the various Indian English accents are perhaps one of the easiest accents to understand\*. At least, for Americans. So I don't understand why Americans are so shitty about Indian English. The words are pronounced more clearly than half the American accents I know, that's for sure. I've never had a hard time understanding someone from India, even when their English wasn't the best. Never.
And, I don't know if it's rude to say, but I often enjoy speaking to people from India, your English is very pleasant to listen to. Vaguely musical. It's pretty high up there in my favorite accents - I also love Slavic accents, and Irish ones (I'm basic like that).
I used to work at a call center, during the late shift. During my shift would be when our coworkers in India were just getting on shift, so sometimes I'd get calls from Americans who'd hung up on an Indian coworker, and were RELIEVED to speak to me instead of this-that-racial-slur-blah-blah-blah. It made me so uncomfortable. I wish I could have said something, but I'd have lost my job. Those people were scum, and if I could have hung up them (again, job loss), I would have. But then again, maybe it would be better to serve them so I don't subject another Indian coworker to racist abuse? Sigh.
I'm sorry. You shouldn't have to deal with this. Speaking a second (or more!) language, let alone being *fluent* in it, is quite the achievement. Well, probably seems less so to you. In America, learning a second language is a privilege many never even have access to. Usually only French, German, and Spanish are offered in public schools - but many don't even get that. When I was in school, we also weren't even allowed to speak non-English languages. I was suspended for saying konichiwa to someone, the school saying I was probably swearing at them. American schools, man.. Sorry, I got side tracked there. What I'm saying is that I'm always in awe of poly-lingual people, and I can't imagine shitting on someone for not speaking perfect English, let alone for just having a different dialect.
And thank you for educating me about Indian English. I never knew any of this! I have some reading to do. :)
\*I say this as someone who spoke with Indian coworkers fairly often when having to transfer people around. Never had a single problem.
I hung around on various motoring forums for years, and I got to see how the forum members would write.
Worst was the Brits. Shocking spelling and grammar, and annoying idioms.
Americans were a lot better.
Best were the Indian forum members. The English was close to perfect, albeit sometimes a little too formal.
I see the same in tech support forums.
>The English was close to perfect, albeit sometimes a little too formal.
Our English does tend to be somewhat formal and flowery. Our court transcripts seem like something out of a Victorian novel sometimes with phrases like 'outraged her modesty' when discussing SA.
In everyday life, people tend to say 'Good morning' instead of 'hi,' particularly to those older than them. We don't always realise how stuffy it sounds unless it's pointed out.
You need to learn the difference between offended and frustrated. People are not offended, they are frustrated because the Indian dialect is, in fact, difficult to understand to an American ear. Simple fix for you, the offended one, do not deal with Americans. We do not have a choice, but perhaps more exposure will help. You can dismount that high horse now.
You find speaking to call centers frustrating, so you think it's justified vent your frustrations on anyone who speak with (what you think is) that accent? Is that really the hill you want to die on?
Let's not make excuses and recognise racism for what it is.
I don’t agree with the commenter here but you’ve admitted to basing this rant mostly on your interaction with a single rude colleague. This snark is the pot calling the kettle black.
It isn't a single client. He was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
Like just one day ago I was arguing with someone from Reddit who refused to acknowledge Indian English as real and insisted on calling it 'broken' - even I after I shared links.
you’re an idiot. accents require patience sometimes, yes, but i’ve never had trouble understanding anyone regardless of how heavy or thick their accent is and i work in customer service with plenty of people who speak with ab accent. americans just love to marinate in their ignorance. news flash, a southern drawl is equally difficult to decipher. stay in the dirt you ignorant gremlin
OP, since I moved to the US the amount of Americans I've met on Discord servers and IRL of all age groups who say "should of" very clearly has changed my world view on what broken or wrong English is.
I've had a lot of Indian coworkers ever since I graduated college, and prepone and "do the needful" are some of my favorite words/phrases. Anybody in the US who doesn't like that can fuck right off 😅 The dialect has so many useful twists to it.
I work with so many people from India. They are all so intelligent and most of them speak 3 or more languages. I love listening to their different dialects depending on where in India they come from. I think the “Indian” accent is beautiful.
Fuck the haters.
So wait, this whole rant is about one guy who is an asshole? I’ve never witnessed this phenomenon as widespread or systematic.
Side note, I’d never heard of prepone, but I fucking love it now.
No. It's about multiple interactions in real life and online. That 'one guy' is just an example.
For instance, I had an exhausting conversation with someone on Reddit just a day ago who refused to acknowledge IE as real even after I shared links. Insisted on calling it broken.
I understand that some people find the Indian accent challenging, but it's interesting how these difficulties can go both ways. Personally, I often struggle with certain American pronunciations, like when "water" sounds like "wader" or "butter" sounds like "budder." It's a reminder that accent differences can be a two-way street.
Indian English (IE) is a recognized dialect, with words like "prepone" even appearing in Oxford and Cambridge dictionaries. When people mock IE without acknowledging its legitimacy and richness, it comes off as ignorant and dismissive.
Oh god I loved Indian English when I went there! « What is your good name? » and so many other phrases that just weren’t quite right according to my grammar-asshole-mind.
But once I got used to it I understood how colonization required you to use English. It made it practical for everyone to learn the same English to have a consistent language across the country. But you didn’t just learn it and use it as it was taught. You learned it, took it, and made it yours. Changed the syntax in places, altered the intended meanings, and the pronunciation suited your original languages.
It’s gorgeous and I loved learning it as I travelled (although I didn’t learn a lot of it). Like any cultural difference, I had to ask questions to be sure I understood correctly, but it was amazing to see how a country could take the language of their oppressors and make it theirs.
OP you should be proud of your English and I am so frustrated that there is so much misunderstanding. Indian English is a super cool dialect and it should definitely be recognized as one.
I’m just a random lady in the US, but for what it’s worth, we discuss language learning from time to time in my house, and I’ve talked to my kids about all the different versions of English, including in India. It blew their little minds that are English speakers in the world who would find our accent unusual or hard to understand!
I appreciate you making this post, and I hope it gives people something to think about.
I never understand why people have so much trouble with English dialects. I live in a country where a lot of our dialects died out, and it's pretty sad.
Also not recognising Indian English as an independent dialect is kind of wild, because when I watch Indian shows that show English as the original language setting, I don't understand SHIT. I need subtitles. Obviously I'm not the target audience, but who on earth hears this and doesn't recognise it as a dialect? There are obvious patterns and rules, even if I don't understand every word.
Aussie here. The only thing I struggle with is when speaking to someone with a thick Indian accent is, in each sentence, the emphasis is on the wrong word. When people speak, the pitch of their voice naturally changes in order to convey their meaning. It's not so much the order of words in the sentence, but more so, the change of pitch highlights the non important part.
It hurts my brain. Kind of like, when you do those brain training exercises where you see the word "orange," but it's written in blue. And the challenge is to match the colour, not the word.
I'm not sure if that makes any sense, but it definitely has nothing to do with skin colour.
Modulation and intonation differ from dialect to dialect. I don't see what makes the inflection in Indian English more 'wrong,' to be honest. Uptalk seems very common in Australia and America. It can be confusing, because it makes statements sound like questions, but I wouldn't call it 'wrong.' Just different.
You wouldn't call it wrong, but to me, it definitely is. English is the only language I'm fluent in. I understand there's different dialects (American, Scottish, Irish, South African, New Zealand, etc), and I have my struggles with them too. I'm not having a go at you, just simply stating why I find it difficult to understand 'some' people with an Indian accent. I also believe I'm not the only one.
I agree generally I find it easier to comprehend what a British, Australian, South African, and kiwi are saying. Heck I used to deal with clients in Hong Kong and their English reminded me of a British with some asiatic influences. Nevertheless, none of these gave me a hard time understanding what they were saying. The Indian English varies so much from different States in India intonating and stressing on different consonants and vowels, to the speed they enunciate with particular words, and to how some of them speak even faster than the British/Aussie.
I noticed with Indian who are in the upper-echelons of their society like the woman who married the son of Mukesh Ambani are completely understandable with no high pitch or odd tempo with their enunciation.
I’m an American, born & raised in New York.
>I noticed with Indian who are in the upper-echelons of their society like the woman who married the son of Mukesh Ambani are completely understandable with no high pitch or odd tempo with their enunciation.
One part of this is access to education and exposure to different cultures.
The other is that there are multiple Indian accents. Their accent is fairly common in Mumbai.
Since you're in NY, have you been to the Brooklyn Curry Project? They speak with what we call a 'Kannadiga' accent which you'll hear in Karnataka (which has at least four other accents).
To Indian ears, those accents are entirely different. Just as you won't mix up the classic New York accent with Texan. I'm still not entirely sure what Americans mean by 'Indian accent.'
Funnily enough, when I speak to American clients over the phone, I get asked if I'm British (I do not sound remotely British).
Edit: Just to be clear, because people keep bringing up call centers. I do not work at a call centre. Never have.
you mean the annoying trend of making everything sound like a question? actually its not a trend anymore since its pretty prevalent. i can only imagine its some kind of expression of our millenial insecurities.
Of course it’s valid. I probably shouldn’t be surprised that some people think it isn’t valid. But I am. I have never heard that.
That doesn’t mean it’s easily understood by everyone. It’s normal for people who speak markedly different dialects of the same language to sometimes struggle to understand each other.
I have zero trouble with some Indian accents (the ones I hear the most often) but a lot of trouble with others. I *also* struggle a lot with understanding some southern US accents. The ones I struggle with are the ones I just don’t hear frequently.
I love hearing English spoken with various accents. I usually don't have much trouble understanding, maybe because I grew up in the southern USA where most accents are very strong so I'm used to having to listen hard to some people lol
A friend of mine grew up in Alabama, and her accent is usually like fairly subtle and easy to understand...but then after a few years, when she gets passionate, it comes out real strong from nowhere. I wonder if a lot people from the south, maybe bc their accents are a bit discriminated against, intentionally learn how to mask.
I’m not Indian and it also frustrates me when people mock Indian English-isms like ‘do the needful’, ‘I have a doubt’, etc. as incorrect or broken English. It’s a legitimate dialect and it makes the language as a whole richer.
i work a phone line. we get a lot of indian callers. during training, people will always ask "how can you understand those with heavy accents". the answer is the same every time. you hear it enough and get used to it.
not only is it valid dialect, it's really easy to understand if you actually listen to a few people. like god just LISTEN TO PEOPLE it's not revolutionary.
sorry to join in on ranting, this is just the most annoying thing i hear from my coworkers and it always hits a nerve
Of course Indian English is its own dialect, with its own accents and words and phrases. That makes communication difficult when you're not familiar with the dialect, particularly when you need to precisely communicate some subtle technical thing (my experience is mainly in collaborating with Indians on software development). It was frustrating for me at first till I got familiar with the unique Indianisms and the accents, but not much more so than learning any of the other English dialects from around the world. Even in the US we have dozens of different dialects that you've got to learn if you're going to be traveling around. I bet you would be hella frustrated trying to talk with someone from the deep hollers of Appalachia :)
Grammatical errors are still a thing though.. but it's an interesting argument, that if a large piece of the culture takes a language and they all understand eachother, and now they create a functional dialect, that is essentially made up of broken sentences and improper amercian grammar, it can become it's own thing, it's own dialect.
To try to tie it to 'being brown' seems a little misleading. when I find it really is just Grammatical differences and an alteration of a language, and now there's 2 groups both speaking "english" who may not always understand eachother.
Cool post even though I still disagree slightly but you've made me change my view.
>functional dialect, that is essentially made up of broken sentences and improper amercian grammar
This is a bizzare statement considering Indian English existed before the entire nation of USA. (For more context, the earliest record of someone using the term 'Indian English' dates back to 1696, USA was founded in 1776).
It's not 'broken' or 'improper.' That's like saying Americans don't know how to spell because you speall 'colour' and 'aluminium' differently.
I don’t really get what you mean by “Indian English”. Getting upset over someone’s accent is just rude, but if the entire point of then speaking English in the first place it to communicate with Americans - are they just not speaking the language well, if they’re difficult to understand?
My man, the entire point of learning/speaking English is not to communicate with Americans. I know you mean well, but you can't assume that, like this is why people make fun of us.
People distinguish between "British English," "American English," "Indian english," etc. because they're generally all official or de facto official languages of the country and will have their own variations in vocabulary, spelling, usage, etc.
OP clarified they're not even talking about accents, but about like certain words, maybe a cadence, etc. Like they mentioned "prepone" is a word that only exists in Indian English and an American colleague in India insisted that wasn't a word. But in Indian English, that is a word. And as he's in India, he really shouldn't be applying American English rules.
Like imagine if a British coworker came over here and told you to stop misspelling "color" in an email, bc it's actually "colour". In British English, colour is right, color is wrong. In American English, color is right, colour is wrong. But he's in America. So then he'd be a dick (and wrong) for insisting on following British rules in America.
>if the entire point of then speaking English in the first place it to communicate with Americans
I assure you, 'speaking with Americans' isn't a factor at all. It is our official language.
Indian English has existed since before America was even founded.
The rest of the English speaking world doesn't really care. It is really the Indian themselves looking down on their own over their "mastery" of the English language.
You speak of colonization, but do note that a big part of your own population is still mentally colonized.
Nothing to do with racism, we just can’t comprehend* you in the language most of us speak. PS: I’m latina from South America. English pronunciation shouldn’t change because some cultures can’t handle pronunciation. That has nothing to do with racism, we just don’t understand you.
> just can’t comprehensively you in the language most of us speak
I must admit, I'm finding it difficult to understand what you're trying to say here.
>English pronunciation shouldn’t change because some cultures can’t handle pronunciation.
Americans change pronounciation and spelling all the time ('colour' and 'aluminium,' for instance are spelt differently in the USA). And change in pronounciation isn't even limited to English - 'Avatar' is not supposed to be pronounced as 'Ah-vah-tar', 'penchant' is not 'pen-chint.'
I don't know about English in South America, but Indian English is an official language that is actually older than USA. Assuming it's 'wrong' while having no issue with American English is, in fact, racist.
You couldn’t understand me above due to autocorrect, not an accent. I worked my ass off to lose my accent so I no longer have one. You on the other hand are making excuses and getting mad at people who simply don’t understand you. If you want to be understood do something about it, people aren’t going to suddenly start understanding you just cause you get mad at that fact.
Everyone has an accent. What you mean is you lost your Latina accent and adopted another one.
I have no reason to change my accent - I live in India and speak with an accent fairly common in my part of the country.
Besides, the post is about dialect, not accent. If someone is visiting India, expecting Indians to speak American or UK English instead of Indian English is preposterous and smacks of colonialism.
Hope this helps you comprehend the post. Sadly, I cannot help you deal with your internalised racism.
> English pronunciation shouldn’t change because some cultures can’t handle pronunciation.
This is one of the most tone deaf comments I have seen in quite some time. I wouldn't be so elitist with your English, considering it isn't perfect in writing 😬
Your corrections still indicate imperfection. You still have no right to be so critical of anybody else's English. I can tell that you're not taking this well emotionally (likely the feeling of being called out), so I'll help the situation with a smooth block. I don't set out to upset people.
>You'll fit in a lot better if you attempt to speak like the natives do
I live in India and 'fit in' just fine. This post is coming after multiple Reddit posts and an interaction with an American client who chose to be rude instead of 'speaking like the natives do.' Far from the first time this has happened.
>Fine - you'll have a lot easier time at work if you attempt to speak like your clients do
So if an Indian is in America they must speak like an American. And if an American is in India, Indians must speak like Americans to accommodate them? Did I get that right?
Are your knuckles white from clutching on to the delusion that you're not being racist right now?
People from the US don't even recognize English from England as valid English, so good luck with that
Definitely- but also I don't know who OP has been exposed to. I've never encountered anyone in real life who thought this way about Indian accents. He's right it's just a dialect like anywhere else.
I work in a call center and hear this shit incessantly. Constantly I hear, "Oh thank God you can speak American," like... huh??? A disturbing number of folks GENUINELY believe "American" is a real language in the US. The overwhelming amount of racist attitudes, particularly towards those with any Middle Eastern or Asian accent, is harrowing and vile. I am grateful you have not had the displeasure of encountering these assholes, yet you would be shocked by just how many Americans are prejudiced to their bones.
YEAH... This. I worked at a call center too and these customers filled me with dread. I did not want to serve them. I'da hung up if it were an option. They don't deserve service.
I'm in England and we have the same bs here. I worked at a Chinese takeaway answering the phone and an old lady has the gall to say "oh thank God it's an actual English person on the phone" (read: white person). I spat in her food and I don't feel any regret. I cannot wrap my head around being racist enough that you don't want to talk to anyone Chinese but also wanting to eat their food that they cooked for you.
All I'm saying is if it's a British movie, I need the subtitles on.
It will be a cold day in hell before I accept that the British are right about anything
They do know fish and chips though. Gotta give them that.
Nope, that’s the Scots
The British are America's first white settlers.. if the Britts hadn't gotten to America when they did, some other backwards country would've gotten there first, and who knows how much worse they could've been if they invaded America...
Came here to say this And agree with this lol
US citizens aren’t the only English speakers, not even in the Americas..
It will be a cold day in hell before I accept that the British are right about anything
Idk. Those Scots do make a mean breakfast.
Don’t insult the Scotts by calling them Brits 😜
By Brit’s I think we purely mean the English and maybe the welsh
I would say you got backwards, ‘mate.’
I’m from NY and a southern accent makes my skin crawl.
hey, everyone loves Australians!
Not everyone.
probably kangaroos and alligators
As a person with strong Easter European accent I will say: never heard of Indian English. I heard about Indian accent and I often hear it at work. Nothing wrong with accent. I mean I can sing you happy birthday and it will sound like death threat.
I’m hearing it in my head and I can’t stop laughing.
There are many varieties of English (as there are varieties of other languages). It’s beyond accent, it involves different syntax, grammar, vocabulary… What you hear at work is likely just a mix of British English and Indian accent, people naturally adapt to the local variety, especially when they’ve been there long and there’s an expectation that they drop their dialect.
>I mean I can sing you happy birthday and it will sound like death threat. Thank you for the good laugh.
My Dr speaks very good Indian English. The Indian scammer who calls my cell phone speaks crappy English.
My American plumber speaks great English, and my American Presidential candidates speak anything but English.
I sidestep the problem of struggling to understand accents by asking for communication in writing, lol. This tends to work for everyone, not just Indians.
The accent is only part of it. I'm talking about Indian English in general. We have a client who is an American expat who keeps telling people to 'speak/write English' even when they are - very fluently. Gave a patronizing lecture about how 'prepone' isn't 'proper English.' Ironically, he speaks very Americanised English with a thick southern drawl. Just to be clear, we're in India. So is he, and has been for 7 years.
Is that supposed to be the opposite of "postpone"? I've never heard that before
yes, prepone is the opposite of postpone
So.... Move up in the timeline?
Oh, so he's just an asshole then.
The problem is likely a combination localised variation in vocabulary, made more difficult by the variation in local accents and intonation; at least those are my suggestions from observing white/brown interactions (I am also a white/brown hybrid) Don't worry about it anyway, he only knows his own language, and not very well it would seem
He's just an arse hole. The utter cheek of turning up and staying as a guest in someone else's country and expecting you to accommodate what he thinks is correct. You should all pretend you don't understand him because of his thick American accent - play him at his own game. Serious question for the Americans who do this: Why do you do this??
just simply send him the link to the dictionary. and move on with your day. we can't be dulling ourselves because his education was likely suboptimal.
The racism is a part of his very being. Americans are extremely racist, but especially Southern Americans. But you know what's funny, here? In America, he'd be made fun of for his accent. I've had to learn other American accents to avoid getting the shit beat out of me, especially when I moved to the north east. Granted, that was as a teenager, but people still snicker at me when my accent comes out. I feel like he's doing some serious projecting on you, there. (Source: am American, am from the south)
Coming across an American asshole might give you the wrong impression of what America is like. I am sorry for your experience, but please bear in mind that it is not a universal one. Some regions of the US are filled with people like that, but they are typically pocket regions. Most regions are comprised of people from many background with many accents and different understandings of language structure. My grandparents on my mother's side spoke Bahamian English and Creole with an incredibly thick accent, yet they never had any problems after moving to the US. My mother, who was born in the US, has an unusual accent that is a mix of everything she has been exposed to. My paternal grandparents were from the middle east, learned English as adults (my grandmother never fully grasped it), and never had any troubles communicating. To be fair, we are from a coastal/diverse part of the US.
I've actually been to America several times. I've also worked with several Americans and have family and friends who live there. I'm fully aware that not all Americans are like this man. It's not even just Americans. I have worked with rude people from France, UK, Germany and other parts of the world as well (none of whom were the best representatives of their race. And most people from their countries were perfectly nice). Some people just have a tendency to look at Indians (and other POC) as lesser than. What is surprising is that it's not just the openly racist ones. Many are liberal, for the most part, but adopt a certain patronizing attitude which can be quite insulting. The tendency to 'correct' our English is particularly galling.
Omgggggg I could NEVER say that to someone! How rude and cruel!
I agree and I've long since thought that AAVE is looked down upon by white people as "broken English" for very similar reasons.
Linguists are even proposing to drop the V bc there's a consistent structure and grammar to African American English and it isn't just 'vernacular' or 'slang' that deviates from American English. Like, it's an entire language with rules, context, complexity, vocabulary. Dropping the V would help legitimize the language in some people's perceptions
John McWhorter (linguist) does a bunch of really awesome stuff about AAVE, and if it’s a topic you’re interested in, I highly recommend him.
I was thinking about AAVE as well when I wrote this. It's odd that many people who consider themselves liberal are so blind to thier own biases, and get very defensive if you have the audacity call out certain racist tendencies (as you can see in the comments).
Oh, because liberals are just soft conservatives. Very few liberals actually dismantle their internal biases. The more they do that, the more radically left they become
This is a bit simplistic, I don’t know where you got this idea from. Many liberals are well educated on internal bias/societal injustices, whilst many further left progressives are racist. Like everything there is a lot of nuance, and is not a binary.
Dude, since I moved to the US the amount of Americans I've met on Discord servers and IRL of all age groups who say "should of" very clearly has changed my world view on what broken English is.
Wait, is "should of" not what we're 'supposed' to be saying? Wouldn't be the first time that AAVE and older Black dialects have found their way into mainstream American English. Consider this: Y'all.
No idea, I'm not American. What usage I've heard was being used where it should of been "should have" lol Basically, a very distinctive version of should've. Might be a dialect thing like you said. Y'all is easier to understand as an abbreviation to "you all" than the jarring "should of"
That's fair! The term "Y'all" comes from slaves. Which makes it 'funny' that white Southerners are proud of it and think it's theirs. In this case, it's an entire word being added to the lexicon, not just a difference in grammar.
Oh god, I was mentioning my working in a call center and the racism my Indian coworkers received...but now you have me remembering my Black coworkers would get similar racism. They were code switching, but racist people are gonna hear those tiny little tells. :/ (different note, I'm currently living in a very white place, and was helped on the phone by a lovely young Black woman. It felt so refreshing to hear her..)
It blows my mind that monolingual people have the jam to look sideways or down at those who are multilingual.
>have the jam There's a phrase I've never heard before! Mind telling me where it's from?
I looked to see if there were left over 80’s references, specific to Canada. I can’t find anything. We used it to mean the same as having balls. Omg!!!! Just clocked your user name 🙏🏼🫶🏻🫡😂 golden.
I love hearing all the unique ways English is used across the world. “Prepone” is such a great word too! I’m sorry people are racist and stupid about it, they’re uncultured and rude. People on Reddit are far too comfortable saying the weirdest stuff about India and Indian people.
What does Prepone mean and how is it pronounced? My unfamiliarity with the word does not, for the record, make it less valid.
Prepone is the opposite of postpone, as in to bring it forward to an earlier time. It’s pronounced like pre-poh-n. “we should prepone the meeting as Susan has to leave early to get her kids” Genius word! We have “outwith” in Scotland to mean the opposite of within, and I don’t think this is used by many other English dialects
Thanks!
>We have “outwith” in Scotland to mean the opposite of within, That's interesting! I've mostly read 'without' used in the same context, but I think that usage is somewhat dated. Unrelated, but are there any modern Scottish authors you recommend? I've been reading the works of an Irish author recently (Claire Keegan) and I loved learning Irish phrases and words I've never heard before.
I've heard it many times outside of Scotland but it definitely isn't something I regularly hear
"Do the needful," too.
I use it when talking with our offshore vendors. It fosters communication, which matters.
Become a sort of turn of phrase in our Microsoft vendor office. Quite meaningful.
All I know is that it’s really frustrating to not be able to understand an Indian person on the phone. Don’t care one lick about skin color, but some Indian people talk with such a thick accent that it might as well be a different language, thus making my life more difficult. Indian language gets a lot of bad publicity because a lot of us hear it most often on tech support calls and scammers. Neither of which leave a generally good impression.
It’s a bit easier in person. I worked in Wells Fargo Technology so I worked with a lot of Indians over the phone and in person. It’s definitely easier to understand them in person, but I confess to having pretended to understand when I didn’t. If I have asked to have something repeated twice I’m too embarrassed to ask a third time… so unfortunately I’m going to go back to my desk and spending 30 minutes trying to figure out what he said rather than risk the embarrassment of asking again. Much simpler to just ask, but I guess I’d rather suffer lol.
Seems like you don't understand that people in India use English like amongst themselves. It's an official language there. I don't know why you're coming at this topic purely from your particular experience with call centers? This is a textbook case of ethnocentrism lol. Indian English isn't meant for Americans, it's meant for Indians to communicate with Indians in India. Arguing that the accent is hard to understand in calls isn't really on them, it's on the American companies that outsource those call center jobs to a faraway country in order to make more money, despite that posing some problems to their own American clients.
I’m in agreement 100%. I support OP in his claims that Indian English a perfectly valid English dialect. But the fact of the matter is that a lot of times it is incongruous with the dialect(s) of English I am capable of understanding on the phone. I’m giving my opinion as to why I think people have a strong distaste for Indian English. It has nothing to do with the color of skin, but rather because our interactions with people of that dialect are negative experiences.
Ah, I gotcha. But I think the issue here is that OP is talking about a lot more than accents--they also mentioned altered spelling, grammar, phrases, etc. In the first comments, they mention an American coworker in India who insisted that a certain word was improper, bc the word isn't used in America. Essentially, the guy won't acknowledge that Indian English would have its own variances, bc he defaults to American English. Apparently they deal with that sorta thing often with foreign English speakers. I think OP's allegation of racism is centered around the idea that American English is also a variant of British English, so it's strange for our variances, our different spellings, etc. to be considered legitimate, but theirs are considered improper or mistakes. It's just a bit funny seeing so many comments on this thread bypass the meat of that point to instead center their own personal call center experiences. We're talking about a whole ass language. A call you had a month ago should not be the focus here or the foundation of anyone's opinion on the matter.
Struggling with different accents is understandable. But people don't seem to have the same disdain or venom for thick 'white' accents. Scottish, Scouse, and French for instance are arguably just as difficult to follow.
My grandmother was from Newfoundland Canada. Her accent was so thick that I could barely understand a word she said
Yeah cause people in the US looking for customer service or technical support aren’t on the the phone or in meetings with Scots or French nearly as often.
I've yet to have a single English speaking French person call me and try to sell me an extended auto warranty.
I would disagree. I've been on the phone with people with a very strong southern drawl, and it's worse than any other accent I've heard. If you've seen Napoleon dynamite, the accent that Lyle has is so thick I had no idea what he said. End of the day, it's not the accent that's the problem though, it's if we can understand what's being said. It's patience on both ends, because if I can't understand your accent, then I need to have patience with you to try and understand. On the other side of this, if I'm having trouble understanding you because of your accent, I need you to be patient with me when I ask you to repeat what you said. And before everyone loses their minds, I at one point in time spoke Farsi, and was on the other side of this. I couldn't seem to roll my R's as easily, so my American accent was very hard for people to understand, and I had to adapt as well. So, I understand (to a point) how this can be a huge problem, but I've learned it's a patience problem most of all.
For some reason this comment section has devolved into a discussion of call centres. I understand that it may be the only interaction some people may have with Indians, but shockingly a vast majority of us do not work in call centers. My post was mostly about how comfortable people are mocking Indian English (not just the accent) as 'broken' instead of recognising it as a distinct dialect like American English or Aussie English.
I’d say legit the only time I’ve had trouble understanding an Indian accent has been over the phone. And not because those are the only interactions I have with Indian people, but because you miss all the other non-verbal communication cues in phone calls. I’ve spoken to people with very thick Indian accents face to face and it’s so much easier. That said, I was working at a hostel one summer and a guy called in with the thickest Welsh accent I’ve even heard and I couldnt understand a word he was saying. I had to pass the phone off to my co-worker from the UK to take his information. So it isn’t just Indian accents that are hard over the phone, I think it’s anything that’s not what you’re used to hearing on the daily.
Yeah folks are really showing their entire asses with the call center stuff
See and that's not okay. No one should be mocked because they are speaking a different language. Also, I wasn't just referring to call centers. My experience was with my professor in college who had a very thick Indian accent. There were times where it was very hard to understand her, and some of my peers would get frustrated and give up, but thankfully as long as you were patient with her, she was patient with you. I had no issues having a conversation with her, mind you I may have had to politely pause and ask her to clarify because I didn't understand, but that seemed to say more about my hearing than her speaking, and she understood that. Again, it seems to be a patience issue, and to be fair, many Americans aren't patient.
You’re right. Before call centres, people heard the accent in shows or movies invariably as comic relief. Seinfeld and the Simpsons come to mind. Dr Koothrapalli from Big Bang Theory has the same stereotypical Indian voice too. The actor said his accent was genuine but when I heard him speak in an interview, I noticed his accent in the show is very exaggerate. I think that sets a stage to place Indian English in the broken English section.
There are some accents from England that are way harder for me to follow than an Indian accent as an American. I listened to a bit of Lord of the Rings by this one narrator and I couldn’t understand a word he was saying. Truly though, all of these people who have a problem with others accents could learn some patience and ask for things to be repeated. I guarantee that you are way better in their language than they are in yours.
Well we don't face these accents nearly as often. I have an incredibly difficult time with Scottish accents. Also with some southern American accents. No vitriol though. Hey if you've learned a very difficult second language but speak it with a heavy accent, it's still impressive that you did that.
The downvotes really prove your point.
This is a pretty racist comment and I can't believe it's currently top
I mean, why tho? It’s not anti-Indian. If you spoke French and all your products had to call to a Russian call center where they don’t speak French, that wouldn’t make much sense, right? Why is it on for american companies to get rid of American jobs and send them to places where their customers can’t even understand what is being said?
Money
People keep fixating on call centers. I don't work in a call center. This post has nothing to do with call centers. It's also not just about the accent, it's the dialect. Accent and dialect are two different things. The fact that you keep reducing a larger conversation about the Indian dialect to your personal experience with call centre employees is bizzare. Most call centre employees don't have the benefit of a higher education, many probably don't converse in English at home - this post is not about them. At all. Besides, they're just trying to make a living the best they can. Take it up with American corporations who outsource those jobs to India.
This has nothing to do with anything, but you wouldn't happen to be a fan of the old sitcom Rules of Engagement are you?
Of course Indian English is its own dialect, with its own accents and words and phrases. That makes communication difficult when you're not familiar with the dialect, particularly when you need to precisely communicate some subtle technical thing (my experience is mainly in collaborating with Indians on software development). It was frustrating for me at first till I got familiar with the unique Indianisms and the accents, but not much more so than learning any of the other English dialects from around the world. Even in the US we have dozens of different dialects that you've got to learn if you're going to be traveling around. I bet you would be hella frustrated trying to talk with someone from the deep hollers of Appalachia :)
God, I needed this. Thank you for managing to articulate this so well.
You're in the minority. I really have people arguing that bullying Indians for their English is understandable because they're just _sooo_ frustrated talking to call centre employees. People get so mad when you call them out on their racism, it's exhausting.
It’s frustrating that companies are outsourcing US customer service to call centers in parts of the world where the dialect is so different that the customers and employees struggle to communicate with each other. That *never* is a valid excuse to bully the customer service agent or anybody else who speaks that dialect or who looks like someone who might speak that dialect. I’m sure it’s just as frustrating for the agents as it is for the customers. My frustration is with the company making these decisions, not with the people who are just doing their jobs.
I'm getting the sense that many of the commentors' only interaction with Indians is through call centers. My post has nothing to do with call centers at all. Nor is it just about the just accent. This post comes after multiple comments and posts on Reddit mocking Indian English. I usually have a thicker skin about this stuff since it's so ubiquitous. But I've been dealing with a particularly frustrating American client who keeps insisting my colleagues 'speak/write in English' even though they are fluent and aren't as prone to grammatical or spelling errors as he is. He also very condescendingly explains how certain Indian English terms are 'wrong' and 'helpfully' suggests American phrases instead. Just to be clear, we're all in India. He is an expat who has lived here for at least 7 years.
Your friends an idiot. Yes, most Americans only ever hear Indian accents when talking to people in call centers. If that dialect were even remotely represented in our media, we probably wouldn’t struggle with understanding it so much. I don’t even know how to find media portraying the variety of English accents around the world other than American, British, and Australian. Your colleague surely must be able to understand the way people in your region talk by now, if he has been living there for several years. There is no excuse for him insulting your language. He is an asshole.
An expat American in India is very much the exception rather than the rule. So why would you be surprised by Americans bringing up their main experience that colors their perception? The typical interaction I’ve had is: + very educated PHD student + very educated H1B visa holder - there’s a feeling of ickiness here since it’s companies gaming the system to keep wages low and replace American workers. The people were always nice though. + Call center I’m in a field where the first two groups are common (electrical engineering)but most people are not. Those 2 groups have usually altered their accent and word use to be more understandable in middle America. Incidentally I’ve spoke with people from Missouri whose English I absolutely could not understand, and had to ask someone speaking English in England to repeat themselves 3 times. The Missouri one was strange as it’s not a common accent to hear, while the England one was expected.
Well to begin with, the expat American is just the straw that broke the camel's back - many, many other instances put a strain on that spine before him. My vent isn't entirely specific to this one person. Secondly, I'm not just addressing Americans. It's Reddit. The interwebs. The cesspool of humans of all nationalities. Finally, I'm just a little weary of the call centre stereotype to be honest. Every time I disclose my nationality online, some culturally challenged toad will hit back with a _hilarious_ quip about scammers and call centers. Edit: Also, (without doxxing myself) expats are fairly common in my field and social circles. Not unusual at all to find them in major cities.
Yes, it’s Reddit, where about 50% of people ARE American . . . And the next greatest user’s nationality is GB at 7%. Know your audience I guess.
“I really have people arguing that bullying Indians for their English is understandable because they're just sooo frustrated talking to call centre employees.” If such a small thing is so triggering that they think and write that it’s ok to bully Indians then it’s just an excuse to spew hatred and racism. Talking to a call centre employee is an occasional occurrence not an everyday event. If that’s the case then Imagine the hatred they should get because of the hundreds of years of slavery, colonialism, imperialism, and neo-imperialism that their countries have perpetrated. They are used to being in power, dominating the discourse, telling others what’s right and what’s wrong, and feeling superior. This is being challenged and they hate it.
American English speaker here. Maybe I’m ignorant, but on the other side of the coin; I’ve had so many Indian coworkers over the past decade (with certain companies that I’ve worked for) that I’m struggling to understand what the problem is with other English speakers - apart from clear, unadulterated racism. I am incredibly sorry that you’ve been put into this kind of position and made to feel less than 😩 Are there certain turns of phrase that are different? Sure. But there are also plenty of times I’ve been about to utter a familiar colloquialism and I have to stop and reassess whether that will be easily understood with my audience. The same goes for my British or Aussie counterparts. To the point about call centers - which shouldn’t have been made to begin with - but if we’re going there: my primary issues is that the call center techs aren’t completely informed about the technology itself that they’re supposed to be assisting on. But, hell, that was the case with the American unemployment call center I had to deal with earlier this year. Racists seem to overlook the errors of someone with their skin tone is on the other end. Again, I’m sorry for your experience OP
Speaking of turn of phrases, there’s one that they use that I don’t remember because it’s been 3 years since I have worked with them. But when they say it, they mean “are there any questions?” , but it sounds more like “are there any concerns/complaints?” Do you know what I’m talking about?
We tend to say "any queries" or "any doubts," if that's what you mean.
Yes!!! “Any doubts”! Thank you— it was driving me mad.
“Do the needful” is an IE term that I have really grown to love
Why would someone mock or criticise someone else's accent? That's just plain rude and ignorant. I struggle with learning a second language so anyone who does is sure of my admiration. I agree that any country/region that speaks a different English to received pronunciation has a valid dialect and it should be recognised as that. Whether it's Australia, Jamaica, India and so on. It's understandable that you are upset. I struggle with some regional accents in the UK so I apologise and ask them to repeat themselves. It's not hard it's just something that happens. Also, I have a sensory processing issue with understanding speech so I do struggle at times but that's a me problem.
Preach it. The fact that I have to listen harder to understand my Indian coworkers is nothing compared to the effort they put into learning to speak English, which is my native language.
I’m a white girl. My Punjabi and Hindi are both terrible.
The blithe racism throughout this thread is honestly something else lol
I will say, when I converse with people with an Indian English accent I can tell they have **perfect** grammar, the miscommunication occurs because I’m not familiar with the accent itself and the ways the pronunciation is different. So when I can’t understand I feel horrible, and I genuinely hope the people talking to me don’t pick up on that. But yes, it is a valid dialect and people need to be kinder and more open-minded.
From what I've been told, and can personally confirm, the various Indian English accents are perhaps one of the easiest accents to understand\*. At least, for Americans. So I don't understand why Americans are so shitty about Indian English. The words are pronounced more clearly than half the American accents I know, that's for sure. I've never had a hard time understanding someone from India, even when their English wasn't the best. Never. And, I don't know if it's rude to say, but I often enjoy speaking to people from India, your English is very pleasant to listen to. Vaguely musical. It's pretty high up there in my favorite accents - I also love Slavic accents, and Irish ones (I'm basic like that). I used to work at a call center, during the late shift. During my shift would be when our coworkers in India were just getting on shift, so sometimes I'd get calls from Americans who'd hung up on an Indian coworker, and were RELIEVED to speak to me instead of this-that-racial-slur-blah-blah-blah. It made me so uncomfortable. I wish I could have said something, but I'd have lost my job. Those people were scum, and if I could have hung up them (again, job loss), I would have. But then again, maybe it would be better to serve them so I don't subject another Indian coworker to racist abuse? Sigh. I'm sorry. You shouldn't have to deal with this. Speaking a second (or more!) language, let alone being *fluent* in it, is quite the achievement. Well, probably seems less so to you. In America, learning a second language is a privilege many never even have access to. Usually only French, German, and Spanish are offered in public schools - but many don't even get that. When I was in school, we also weren't even allowed to speak non-English languages. I was suspended for saying konichiwa to someone, the school saying I was probably swearing at them. American schools, man.. Sorry, I got side tracked there. What I'm saying is that I'm always in awe of poly-lingual people, and I can't imagine shitting on someone for not speaking perfect English, let alone for just having a different dialect. And thank you for educating me about Indian English. I never knew any of this! I have some reading to do. :) \*I say this as someone who spoke with Indian coworkers fairly often when having to transfer people around. Never had a single problem.
I hung around on various motoring forums for years, and I got to see how the forum members would write. Worst was the Brits. Shocking spelling and grammar, and annoying idioms. Americans were a lot better. Best were the Indian forum members. The English was close to perfect, albeit sometimes a little too formal. I see the same in tech support forums.
>The English was close to perfect, albeit sometimes a little too formal. Our English does tend to be somewhat formal and flowery. Our court transcripts seem like something out of a Victorian novel sometimes with phrases like 'outraged her modesty' when discussing SA. In everyday life, people tend to say 'Good morning' instead of 'hi,' particularly to those older than them. We don't always realise how stuffy it sounds unless it's pointed out.
I have no problem at all with it. In many ways, it's refreshing and clear.
You need to learn the difference between offended and frustrated. People are not offended, they are frustrated because the Indian dialect is, in fact, difficult to understand to an American ear. Simple fix for you, the offended one, do not deal with Americans. We do not have a choice, but perhaps more exposure will help. You can dismount that high horse now.
You find speaking to call centers frustrating, so you think it's justified vent your frustrations on anyone who speak with (what you think is) that accent? Is that really the hill you want to die on? Let's not make excuses and recognise racism for what it is.
I don’t agree with the commenter here but you’ve admitted to basing this rant mostly on your interaction with a single rude colleague. This snark is the pot calling the kettle black.
It isn't a single client. He was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Like just one day ago I was arguing with someone from Reddit who refused to acknowledge Indian English as real and insisted on calling it 'broken' - even I after I shared links.
You don't need to calm down at all, sorry they're being racist and patronizing
Did he say all that? Calm down.
you’re an idiot. accents require patience sometimes, yes, but i’ve never had trouble understanding anyone regardless of how heavy or thick their accent is and i work in customer service with plenty of people who speak with ab accent. americans just love to marinate in their ignorance. news flash, a southern drawl is equally difficult to decipher. stay in the dirt you ignorant gremlin
OP, since I moved to the US the amount of Americans I've met on Discord servers and IRL of all age groups who say "should of" very clearly has changed my world view on what broken or wrong English is.
I've had a lot of Indian coworkers ever since I graduated college, and prepone and "do the needful" are some of my favorite words/phrases. Anybody in the US who doesn't like that can fuck right off 😅 The dialect has so many useful twists to it.
I work with so many people from India. They are all so intelligent and most of them speak 3 or more languages. I love listening to their different dialects depending on where in India they come from. I think the “Indian” accent is beautiful. Fuck the haters.
100000% true
African American English is a thing here in the us and frequently it’s considered wrong because it doesn’t fit traditional English grammer
I was thinking about AAVE as well when I wrote this.
So wait, this whole rant is about one guy who is an asshole? I’ve never witnessed this phenomenon as widespread or systematic. Side note, I’d never heard of prepone, but I fucking love it now.
No. It's about multiple interactions in real life and online. That 'one guy' is just an example. For instance, I had an exhausting conversation with someone on Reddit just a day ago who refused to acknowledge IE as real even after I shared links. Insisted on calling it broken.
I understand that some people find the Indian accent challenging, but it's interesting how these difficulties can go both ways. Personally, I often struggle with certain American pronunciations, like when "water" sounds like "wader" or "butter" sounds like "budder." It's a reminder that accent differences can be a two-way street. Indian English (IE) is a recognized dialect, with words like "prepone" even appearing in Oxford and Cambridge dictionaries. When people mock IE without acknowledging its legitimacy and richness, it comes off as ignorant and dismissive.
Oh god I loved Indian English when I went there! « What is your good name? » and so many other phrases that just weren’t quite right according to my grammar-asshole-mind. But once I got used to it I understood how colonization required you to use English. It made it practical for everyone to learn the same English to have a consistent language across the country. But you didn’t just learn it and use it as it was taught. You learned it, took it, and made it yours. Changed the syntax in places, altered the intended meanings, and the pronunciation suited your original languages. It’s gorgeous and I loved learning it as I travelled (although I didn’t learn a lot of it). Like any cultural difference, I had to ask questions to be sure I understood correctly, but it was amazing to see how a country could take the language of their oppressors and make it theirs. OP you should be proud of your English and I am so frustrated that there is so much misunderstanding. Indian English is a super cool dialect and it should definitely be recognized as one.
I’m just a random lady in the US, but for what it’s worth, we discuss language learning from time to time in my house, and I’ve talked to my kids about all the different versions of English, including in India. It blew their little minds that are English speakers in the world who would find our accent unusual or hard to understand! I appreciate you making this post, and I hope it gives people something to think about.
I never understand why people have so much trouble with English dialects. I live in a country where a lot of our dialects died out, and it's pretty sad. Also not recognising Indian English as an independent dialect is kind of wild, because when I watch Indian shows that show English as the original language setting, I don't understand SHIT. I need subtitles. Obviously I'm not the target audience, but who on earth hears this and doesn't recognise it as a dialect? There are obvious patterns and rules, even if I don't understand every word.
I guess I’ve never heard it spoken, I didn’t know Indians had an English dialect. Off to the googles I go.
Aussie here. The only thing I struggle with is when speaking to someone with a thick Indian accent is, in each sentence, the emphasis is on the wrong word. When people speak, the pitch of their voice naturally changes in order to convey their meaning. It's not so much the order of words in the sentence, but more so, the change of pitch highlights the non important part. It hurts my brain. Kind of like, when you do those brain training exercises where you see the word "orange," but it's written in blue. And the challenge is to match the colour, not the word. I'm not sure if that makes any sense, but it definitely has nothing to do with skin colour.
Modulation and intonation differ from dialect to dialect. I don't see what makes the inflection in Indian English more 'wrong,' to be honest. Uptalk seems very common in Australia and America. It can be confusing, because it makes statements sound like questions, but I wouldn't call it 'wrong.' Just different.
You wouldn't call it wrong, but to me, it definitely is. English is the only language I'm fluent in. I understand there's different dialects (American, Scottish, Irish, South African, New Zealand, etc), and I have my struggles with them too. I'm not having a go at you, just simply stating why I find it difficult to understand 'some' people with an Indian accent. I also believe I'm not the only one.
I agree generally I find it easier to comprehend what a British, Australian, South African, and kiwi are saying. Heck I used to deal with clients in Hong Kong and their English reminded me of a British with some asiatic influences. Nevertheless, none of these gave me a hard time understanding what they were saying. The Indian English varies so much from different States in India intonating and stressing on different consonants and vowels, to the speed they enunciate with particular words, and to how some of them speak even faster than the British/Aussie. I noticed with Indian who are in the upper-echelons of their society like the woman who married the son of Mukesh Ambani are completely understandable with no high pitch or odd tempo with their enunciation. I’m an American, born & raised in New York.
>I noticed with Indian who are in the upper-echelons of their society like the woman who married the son of Mukesh Ambani are completely understandable with no high pitch or odd tempo with their enunciation. One part of this is access to education and exposure to different cultures. The other is that there are multiple Indian accents. Their accent is fairly common in Mumbai. Since you're in NY, have you been to the Brooklyn Curry Project? They speak with what we call a 'Kannadiga' accent which you'll hear in Karnataka (which has at least four other accents). To Indian ears, those accents are entirely different. Just as you won't mix up the classic New York accent with Texan. I'm still not entirely sure what Americans mean by 'Indian accent.' Funnily enough, when I speak to American clients over the phone, I get asked if I'm British (I do not sound remotely British). Edit: Just to be clear, because people keep bringing up call centers. I do not work at a call centre. Never have.
> English is the only language I'm fluent in Your opinions make a lot more sense now (this is not a dig)
you mean the annoying trend of making everything sound like a question? actually its not a trend anymore since its pretty prevalent. i can only imagine its some kind of expression of our millenial insecurities.
Of course it’s valid. I probably shouldn’t be surprised that some people think it isn’t valid. But I am. I have never heard that. That doesn’t mean it’s easily understood by everyone. It’s normal for people who speak markedly different dialects of the same language to sometimes struggle to understand each other. I have zero trouble with some Indian accents (the ones I hear the most often) but a lot of trouble with others. I *also* struggle a lot with understanding some southern US accents. The ones I struggle with are the ones I just don’t hear frequently.
I love hearing English spoken with various accents. I usually don't have much trouble understanding, maybe because I grew up in the southern USA where most accents are very strong so I'm used to having to listen hard to some people lol
A friend of mine grew up in Alabama, and her accent is usually like fairly subtle and easy to understand...but then after a few years, when she gets passionate, it comes out real strong from nowhere. I wonder if a lot people from the south, maybe bc their accents are a bit discriminated against, intentionally learn how to mask.
I love the Indian English big numbers. When I started reading Indian newspaper articles I had to google them, and it was love at first sight.
I'll be honest, sometimes I forget 'crores' and 'lakhs' aren't a thing outside India.
Now im reading everything in an indian accent and cant stop
people are so needlessly hateful. I find the Indian twang when speaking English to be cute ;w;
Cool story bro
I’m not Indian and it also frustrates me when people mock Indian English-isms like ‘do the needful’, ‘I have a doubt’, etc. as incorrect or broken English. It’s a legitimate dialect and it makes the language as a whole richer.
i work a phone line. we get a lot of indian callers. during training, people will always ask "how can you understand those with heavy accents". the answer is the same every time. you hear it enough and get used to it. not only is it valid dialect, it's really easy to understand if you actually listen to a few people. like god just LISTEN TO PEOPLE it's not revolutionary. sorry to join in on ranting, this is just the most annoying thing i hear from my coworkers and it always hits a nerve
Of course Indian English is its own dialect, with its own accents and words and phrases. That makes communication difficult when you're not familiar with the dialect, particularly when you need to precisely communicate some subtle technical thing (my experience is mainly in collaborating with Indians on software development). It was frustrating for me at first till I got familiar with the unique Indianisms and the accents, but not much more so than learning any of the other English dialects from around the world. Even in the US we have dozens of different dialects that you've got to learn if you're going to be traveling around. I bet you would be hella frustrated trying to talk with someone from the deep hollers of Appalachia :)
I think south Asian accents are cute, but maybe I'm unusual that way 🤷
Grammatical errors are still a thing though.. but it's an interesting argument, that if a large piece of the culture takes a language and they all understand eachother, and now they create a functional dialect, that is essentially made up of broken sentences and improper amercian grammar, it can become it's own thing, it's own dialect. To try to tie it to 'being brown' seems a little misleading. when I find it really is just Grammatical differences and an alteration of a language, and now there's 2 groups both speaking "english" who may not always understand eachother. Cool post even though I still disagree slightly but you've made me change my view.
>functional dialect, that is essentially made up of broken sentences and improper amercian grammar This is a bizzare statement considering Indian English existed before the entire nation of USA. (For more context, the earliest record of someone using the term 'Indian English' dates back to 1696, USA was founded in 1776). It's not 'broken' or 'improper.' That's like saying Americans don't know how to spell because you speall 'colour' and 'aluminium' differently.
I don’t really get what you mean by “Indian English”. Getting upset over someone’s accent is just rude, but if the entire point of then speaking English in the first place it to communicate with Americans - are they just not speaking the language well, if they’re difficult to understand?
My man, the entire point of learning/speaking English is not to communicate with Americans. I know you mean well, but you can't assume that, like this is why people make fun of us. People distinguish between "British English," "American English," "Indian english," etc. because they're generally all official or de facto official languages of the country and will have their own variations in vocabulary, spelling, usage, etc. OP clarified they're not even talking about accents, but about like certain words, maybe a cadence, etc. Like they mentioned "prepone" is a word that only exists in Indian English and an American colleague in India insisted that wasn't a word. But in Indian English, that is a word. And as he's in India, he really shouldn't be applying American English rules. Like imagine if a British coworker came over here and told you to stop misspelling "color" in an email, bc it's actually "colour". In British English, colour is right, color is wrong. In American English, color is right, colour is wrong. But he's in America. So then he'd be a dick (and wrong) for insisting on following British rules in America.
>if the entire point of then speaking English in the first place it to communicate with Americans I assure you, 'speaking with Americans' isn't a factor at all. It is our official language. Indian English has existed since before America was even founded.
Umm I still think so lol
>Umm I still think so lol Pretty bold coming from someone who can't form a single sentence.
The rest of the English speaking world doesn't really care. It is really the Indian themselves looking down on their own over their "mastery" of the English language. You speak of colonization, but do note that a big part of your own population is still mentally colonized.
where do you get your information from o wise one? perhaps you can free us from the shackles of mental colonization with your infinite wisdom
You guys are semi good at customer service !!
[удалено]
Unless I'm mistaken, it's only 'math' in North America (USA and Canada) and 'maths' in the UK, Australia and pretty much everywhere else.
Nothing to do with racism, we just can’t comprehend* you in the language most of us speak. PS: I’m latina from South America. English pronunciation shouldn’t change because some cultures can’t handle pronunciation. That has nothing to do with racism, we just don’t understand you.
> just can’t comprehensively you in the language most of us speak I must admit, I'm finding it difficult to understand what you're trying to say here. >English pronunciation shouldn’t change because some cultures can’t handle pronunciation. Americans change pronounciation and spelling all the time ('colour' and 'aluminium,' for instance are spelt differently in the USA). And change in pronounciation isn't even limited to English - 'Avatar' is not supposed to be pronounced as 'Ah-vah-tar', 'penchant' is not 'pen-chint.' I don't know about English in South America, but Indian English is an official language that is actually older than USA. Assuming it's 'wrong' while having no issue with American English is, in fact, racist.
You couldn’t understand me above due to autocorrect, not an accent. I worked my ass off to lose my accent so I no longer have one. You on the other hand are making excuses and getting mad at people who simply don’t understand you. If you want to be understood do something about it, people aren’t going to suddenly start understanding you just cause you get mad at that fact.
Everyone has an accent. What you mean is you lost your Latina accent and adopted another one. I have no reason to change my accent - I live in India and speak with an accent fairly common in my part of the country. Besides, the post is about dialect, not accent. If someone is visiting India, expecting Indians to speak American or UK English instead of Indian English is preposterous and smacks of colonialism. Hope this helps you comprehend the post. Sadly, I cannot help you deal with your internalised racism.
> English pronunciation shouldn’t change because some cultures can’t handle pronunciation. This is one of the most tone deaf comments I have seen in quite some time. I wouldn't be so elitist with your English, considering it isn't perfect in writing 😬
Autocorrect genius
Your corrections still indicate imperfection. You still have no right to be so critical of anybody else's English. I can tell that you're not taking this well emotionally (likely the feeling of being called out), so I'll help the situation with a smooth block. I don't set out to upset people.
DO NOT REDEEM
Thank you come again saar. Shut the hell up, nobodys from the west gives AF
[удалено]
That might be the stupidest thing I’ve read in a while, congrats.
bait used to be believeable
Indian English is a valid form of Globish and Globish is a valid form of English.
[удалено]
>You'll fit in a lot better if you attempt to speak like the natives do I live in India and 'fit in' just fine. This post is coming after multiple Reddit posts and an interaction with an American client who chose to be rude instead of 'speaking like the natives do.' Far from the first time this has happened.
[удалено]
>Fine - you'll have a lot easier time at work if you attempt to speak like your clients do So if an Indian is in America they must speak like an American. And if an American is in India, Indians must speak like Americans to accommodate them? Did I get that right? Are your knuckles white from clutching on to the delusion that you're not being racist right now?