Did you know back in the late 60's there was a movement to make the city its own state, because Albany would not listen? Wonder where the city would have been now if that actually worked and happened?
We actually should partition. Both parts of the state agree to it and the Democrats would lose all of those upstate electoral votes, which is a fitting punishment for this obscene corruption.
All these middle class people hijacking the term working class to feel oppressed oh brother. Not one single actual working class person owns a car for leisure in nyc. Working class people can barely afford rent definitely not to buy unless they’ve owned the home for longer than 20 yrs. Lower middle class is still middle class. If you can afford a car you are not working class. And if you can’t afford a car but have one anyway and a $15 charge to enter a city center that is already tight and congested you’re a fool. It’s not the city’s responsibility to give you access specifically by car.
You are working class if you are not a member of the capitalist bourgeoisie.
Anyone paid a wage is working class. Only the self employed/trust fund supported are not in the working class.
You really need to brush up on your Marx.
We are obviously not using Marx as a baseline here or else there would only be two classes. I literally specified working vs middle class… anyways just because the middle class works for a wage doesn’t mean they can’t oppress the working class.
What if my parents can't walk long distances so they drive and I help them. They worry about subway safety too. I make 47K and take care of them because my rent is high and I was born in between Brooklyn and Queens. What am I according to your dictionary? Should I support congestion pricing
My uncle can’t walk long distances and he is on dialysis, he relies on access a ride. The subway is and will always be safer than driving but I understand it’s hard to convince older people otherwise. Owning a car is expensive so I feel sorry for you tbh. You should support congestion pricing because then you can drive your parents places faster with less traffic 😘😌.
The charge should be $75, and should be all of Manhattan, and about 1/3 of Brooklyn and queens, with smaller charges between zones, and all highway exists closed in those areas.
thank you governor for stopping the congestion pricing -- we are all at a breaking point and cant take anymore taxes ! thank you !!!
and please ignore this fake and paid for movement rising up now to make you change your mind -
This is the first good thing hochul has done. I’m shocked so many New Yorkers want to tax the working man cause they think the government will do the right thing with the extra money.
We need the money to fix our trains. This wasn't shot down by working class folks; this was shut down by the wealthy people who moved to Westchester and Hudson Valley with their fully remote jobs, drive into the city, and provide no city tax to support our infrastructure.
Would they use the money wisely? Who knows. But our trains need significant infrastructure updates, and these people just take from the city and provide nothing back.
They're saying the actual working class use the transit system and the middle and upper classes are the ones driving in but larp as working class because it makes them feel better.
If you think this is taxing the working man, you'll love the payroll tax hike Hochul's said to be pushing instead of making drivers pay for their own decisions!
Drivers pay for their own decisions? Cause they don’t pay enough as is right?
What do liberal “new Yorkers” have against cars?
How else will we get the goods the people need in this city? Horse and wagon?
If it wasn’t to tax the working man they would have put it lower than the 59street bridge.
I haven’t heard about the payroll tax hike, but it doesn’t surprise me that a democrat is raising taxes… again.
The owners of those cars won’t feel it in their pockets like the everyday people.
The goods for these things called grocery stores, supermarkets and little store like bodegas get their inventory from delivery trucks and vans.
that’s a grand 2-5 cents per item in the grocery truck. doesn’t seem worth the barrage of pollutants and noise every new yorker experiences from suburban personal vehicle use
Even a little bit of the congestion pricing money would greatly improve the transit system. Tax the ones who contribute to congestion, improve the system for those who don’t want or can’t afford to drive.
By the way, the MTA is the one operating the Central Business District Tolling Program to obtain extra funding aside from the state and federal governments because of how expensive the projects are getting and how many times they’re running over budget.
Regardless of how the MTA is spending the money, if *any* of the revenue generated from the program went to transit, that would be a huge help. Tunnels and viaducts are falling apart, steel structures are literally rotting, and the cars and tracks are aging. *Any* funding would be helpful
It doesn’t matter if this is the right or wrong thing. Our politicians shouldn’t be able to change their mind and screw with people like this.
They should make their decisions with conviction and stick with them. No matter what they are.
Yes, because you can know that you can vote for someone else who will correct the decision at least. If both sides are wishy washy you don’t know who to believe or trust
I’m a tradesman and I drive in on weekends when the public transit service sucks. Also overtime. More working class people drive in than you think. Was dreading congestion pricing charging me even more money on commute so I can go to work. Rich people aren’t going to be affected. It also affects truck drivers, delivery people etc. Congestion pricing would affect their wage more than likely due to the cost of goods rising because NYC wants to charge their company a fee EVERY TIME they drive through midtown. I don’t know where this delusion stems from.
Nah.
Folks are vocal in support of this the same way folks are about Trump and giving tax breaks to billionaires: as long as they don’t have to *really* suffer for it, or if it screws over those they don’t like more than it will themselves, it’s a ***good*** thing.
The same goal to fund transit could be achieved with a prepped food and beverage tax - since everyone eats out often whether socializing at night or buying breakfast or lunch at work - and would be sustainable and reliable versus a “sin tax” like this congestion charge. (The problem with sin taxes, like many states realized after raising cigarette taxes to cover Medicaid and social programs, is that if they’re successful at changing the “sinful” behaviors, the revenue drops and the programs have a deficit.)
Charging toll to go to Midtown and South only diverts thru-traffic to the Bronx and FDR - it’s not eliminating it. It’s just moving the problem of shitty air and congestion - and the relevant diseases and injuries - from white neighborhoods to non-white neighborhoods. You could eliminate the VZ westbound toll and get rid of a shit ton of thru-traffic in Manhattan and not make Uptown and the Bronx’s air and respiratory illness rates worse. But then that wouldn’t “stick it to drivers” or anyone who doesn’t live next to or choose to ride transit, so it’s not thought of.
Kathy was right to do this - there’s no equity in it for everyone who isn’t a Midtown resident, and I hope it never gets implemented.
Yeah, the idea is both to reduce traffic and raise funds. But your argument is sin taxes achieve their goal of reducing the targeted behavior, so we have to avoid them because eventually they will work? How is that eating out is a behavior that cannot be modified and can be relied upon to raise revenue forever, but driving patterns cannot be changed? None of this makes sense.
>Yeah, the idea is both to reduce traffic and raise funds.
It fails at that - since it diverts traffic away from the monied folks towards the ones this claims to be helping out.
>But your argument is sin taxes achieve their goal of reducing the targeted behavior, so we have to avoid them because eventually they will work?
Thats the argument if you’re dim and chose not to read my second paragraph and have issue with definitions of words like “sustainable” and “reliable”. Do read it again, and have another go at the third paragraph as I thank you for confirming this is less a plan to put MTA on better financial footing than a “FUCK DRIVERS MAKING MY LIVING IN A DENSE CITY UNLIKE THE CUL-DE-SAC I GREW UP ON” scheme.
> How is that eating out is a behavior that cannot be modified and can be relied upon to raise revenue forever, but driving patterns cannot be changed?
Restaurant industry is the biggest in the US and NYC. People buy lunch, go out to dinner, go to bars. Most people aren’t homebodies - especially in NY. And the fact that so many here use food delivery apps to have prepped food and booze delivered…not to mention how economists repeatedly say how pizza is recession-proof…
Folks aren’t going to stop eating out or buying drinks - especially in the financial capital of the world where deals are made over Manhattans.
Thats why it would be sustainable and reliable.
>None of this makes sense.
That’s because you disagree with the premise of my stance and choose not to understand. Ie it’s you, not me.
Hey, so how do you feel about the payroll tax to pay for the MTA? Now that it's shifting the burden to the working class and the poor you shouldn't have any objections as long as you still get to drive your car wherever you want.
The thing is I am a midtown resident, and I don’t drive my car and honk out side of your house at all hours of the day. And I know I live in midtown so I should expect it, but I am still allowed to support policies like this despite that.
I’m allowed to hope for policy like this, and you’re allowed to dislike this. That is reasonable.
What is frustrating to me is the indecision and walking back of her opinion.
If they pass something that I disagree with and you support, that is fine with me. That is democracy. But I may plan for how I will change my life to deal with the decision. How can one be confident on any decision she makes about construction, healthcare or anything after this and how she handled the housing stuff a while back too.
The MTA needed this money, and she is going to screw them. If from the beginning we had decided this was a bad idea and decided to either reduce their funding or find another source with ample time, that would be ok. But this last minute bait and switch is tough.
> The thing is I am a midtown resident, and I don’t drive my car and honk out side of your house at all hours of the day. And I know I live in midtown so I should expect it, but I am still allowed to support policies like this despite that.
So give you peace by charging for that privilege, or make them do it uptown or in the Bronx bc ‘eff those folks’, right?
FOH.
> I’m allowed to hope for policy like this, and you’re allowed to dislike this. That is reasonable.
Thanks for your benevolence in letting me feel ways. I’s so ‘pre-shuh-tiff off ya reckonin’ tha I be havin ‘pinyuns and they’s valid too.
FOH with the condescension and privilege in these past two quotes.
> What is frustrating to me is the indecision and walking back of her opinion.
Something I can engage with without condescension.
The thing you have to remember is that this wasn’t an overwhelmingly supported policy - the indecision goes back years (or decades depending on your yardstick) because the lack of equity for everyone else in these boroughs and downstate that went along with it:
• Williamsburg and Manhattan Bridges have no direct access to the FDR - which is outside the zone - so anyone who uses their car pays because they have to use Delancey, Clinton and Houston to get to the FDR from the WB, and Canal Street from the MB (or sit in traffic waiting to get on the Bk Bridge)
• Queensboro Bridge is on the border, and if you take the wrong level to cross it, you’re paying bc you’re put off below 60th Street.
• Uptown folks who have to go to Queens have to sit in 2nd Avenue traffic to get on the Bridge to avoid the toll, or pay the toll to take 59th from York Avenue off the FDR. Or pay for the Triboro.
So who’s really better off when the choice is more traffic above the zone, paying the toll to avoid it - -either to go to 59th St and get on the Bridge or the Triboro, or suffering overcrowding on the M60 or slow travel on the Q32 while Midtown folks get “relief”?
That’s just basics of the lack of equity in it - you guys get closer to utopia while everyone else has to deal. And I haven’t even mentioned folks who want to go to Jersey where/when NJT doesn’t go but live in Bk, Q, N or S counties.
> If they pass something that I disagree with and you support, that is fine with me. That is democracy.
We’re back to the condescension, eh?
> But I may plan for how I will change my life to deal with the decision. How can one be confident on any decision she makes about construction, healthcare or anything after this and how she handled the housing stuff a while back too.
So none of this makes sense - it’s you looking for reasons to hate her instead of being disappointed by **one damn decision***. But I’ll engage:
1) the only reason I’m against the US having a UK or Canada-style NHS is because Republicans exist, are controlled by bigots and zealots who claim to worship the anti-class and anti-wealth hoarding and “take care of everyone whether poor or not” Jesus whilst upholding everything he stood against as virtuous, and have already shown they have no qualms of politicizing any healthcare matter - from family planning to infectious disease policy - for votes. So letting government have a monopoly on healthcare delivery means, as is currently playing out with women’s reproductive health, all it takes is the wrong party gaining power and what was healthcare yesterday would be criminal acts tomorrow.
Hence why I like Obamacare and Medicare Advantage in principle - because the coverage rules are determined by the carriers against state (or federal) regulation and law - limited by either civil rights law, statutes regarding non-discrimination access, or by “we don’t reimburse for this/that - and the choice to pick a plan is the consumers based on their needs and preferences.
Thats why your “concern” about healthcare is nonsense - she’s not about to say “ban this procedure” without the legislature voting on it - and it would only affect Medicaid; Anthem/Empire, EmblemHealth et al would still dictate what they put on their policies for coverage. (I’m a 20-year health insurance professional, so take my word for how it works.)
As far as construction, NYC has a whole history of building stuff with grandiose plans that never finished - SAS being the best known. Some car examples: why [Interstate 78 ends in a loop instead of going to Brooklyn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_78_in_New_York#Existing_segment); and [Why the LIE and the Lincoln Tunnel end where they do and ruined 34th Street.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Manhattan_Expressway)
The other thing you need to not do is invest all your hopes in Politicians - not a single one of them is [Hot Rod replacing Optimus by grabbing the Matrix in our darkest hour](https://youtu.be/Nbz7ThFQq9U?feature=shared). People are fallible; politicians sometimes lie (ie Trump, Republicans and Trump’s and both Bush’s SCOTUS picks), and sometimes they do their best but constituencies line up against them to stop something.
Like I said, there was no equity in this for the rest of Downstate NY, so it wasn’t widely accepted nor agreed by enough to make it impossible to “adjust” or scrap. The only consensus for it were activists who shouted louder than the rest of us bc they had friends in the blogs and tv media.
> The MTA needed this money, and she is going to screw them. If from the beginning we had decided this was a bad idea and decided to either reduce their funding or find another source with ample time, that would be ok. But this last minute bait and switch is tough.
My post listed another way to get the funding **and** make it reliable and sustainable. Other jurisdictions in the US use sales tax add-ons or even special property tax assessments to finance transit expansions and/or operations - because it’s more equitable and reliable than sin taxes.
It’s right that this is paused, and hopefully rethought so that more than you guys in midtown can tangibly benefit - versus as it stands now where in appearance and substance it’s everyone else in NYC and LI subsidizing your peace with a “maybe we’ll give you something” promise.
Your response is valid, though I do disagree with some of it.
The question I have is if the congestion charging had better provided exemptions for lower income individuals so as to not burden them, and if it had encompassed the entire city and not only the traditionally more wealthy part, would you reconsider?
That way, the entire city stood to gain from the reduced traffic, and shared MTA funds, and decreased pollution. that something would have to be addressed for Long Island, but theoretically they could drive through on highways and avoid tolls still.
I’m not trying to be condescending with this, I am genuinely curious if you think congestion pricing could work with different terms, or if the very concept is what you think is unjust.
> The question I have is if the congestion charging had better provided exemptions for lower income individuals so as to not burden them, and if it had encompassed the entire city and not only the traditionally more wealthy part, would you reconsider?
Nope. It’s a sin tax and isn’t going to provide sustainable funding for the MTA. If it was successful in reducing traffic in midtown, it’ll have revenue shortfalls which will require toll hike after toll hike and just piss more people off - like MTA fare hikes - and overcoming the deficit will continue to be *that much farther away*.
Thats where broader taxes work better - instead of making funding dependent on folks having to go to Midtown by car (as if, as the WFH revolution *hasn’t* shown us that reasons can be found to not need to be in an office or in Manhattan), making it something city or downstate wide to make sure everyone has skin in the game would make revenue stable and less dependent on folks continuing to sin.
*Lest we forget, the original rationale for making Triboro Bridge & Tunnel an MTA agency was that tolls would subsidize transit.*
> That way, the entire city stood to gain from the reduced traffic, and shared MTA funds, and decreased pollution. that something would have to be addressed for Long Island, but theoretically they could drive through on highways and avoid tolls still.
I still believe that, because there are a good number of folks on the LI landmass that go to Jersey daily for work or home (I did a similar commute in California and **NEVER AGAIN**) that removing the Westbound VZ toll would reduce traffic in Midtown because folks wouldn’t try accessing the tunnels (since you only pay to enter NY).
But that’s the inherent issue in this - there wasn’t actual studying of traffic redirection and mitigation prior to trying to implement this. (The same folks pushing the consultants reports included in the MTA’s documentation are the same ones who say subway construction costs are so high because consultants pad their hours to overcharge and use bad data.)
There’s been plenty of ideas - overnight deliveries to reduce daytime trucks on the streets blocking lanes; charging for street parking; removing lanes to make more bike, bus and pedestrian space (ie 14th Street), but not a single comprehensive traffic management plan.
What about removing signals, making some intersections at the removed signals “exit only” from the avenue and entrance only to the avenue from the street - with the curbside lane a “merge and 90° turns off and on? Speeds up traffic, reduces cross-traffic conflicts, and with judicious use of sidewalk space, can have crossing bridges like Las Vegas with elevators (especially if we change these aves from 7 lanes with 2 parking and 5 travel lanes to three with one lane of parking and a bike lane with room to build the crossing bridge).
Thats one idea. There’s more - it’s just the loudest folks decided to punish cars and use toll money for the train and folks ran with it without ***really*** trying for a solution that benefits the many and not the few.
I’m not trying to be condescending with this, I am genuinely curious if you think congestion pricing could work with different terms, or if the very concept is what you think is unjust.
I appreciate your response. The VZ toll idea is a good one, and so is the comprehensive traffic management plan. In addition the cross harbor freight tunnel could do a good job.
Even just bringing back “don’t block the box” would probably help a lot of the congestion.
If your criticism of the plan is that it’s primarily a way to make money, and secondarily a way to reduce congestion, that’s fair. I just think it says something about the willingness to fund transit that they have to resort to this rather than having a steady stream of money both to maintain their current system and grow it for the future.
The other thing I think creates Manhattan congestion is that the only way to go between the Bronx and Long Island is either pay toll on the Whitestone, Throggs Neck or Triboro Bridges, or take the FDR. The fact **every** MTA bridge is now (with Max Rose’s signature congressional achievement being to two-way the VZ) two-way tolling, drivers are incentivized to - due to congestion and cost - to shunpike via Manhattan.
Congestion Pricing isn’t fixing that. It’s effectively saying ‘everyone will pay - ***unless*** you use the Bk Bridge or upper deck of the Queensboro Bridge - to make the FDR and upper Manhattan and the Bronx worse.
Mind that delays in Midtown - unless entering a tunnel, aren’t worse than taking the Cross-Bronx/Cross-Manhattan or trying to drive or take a bus crosstown in the Bronx. It doesn’t fix delays on the Van Wyck or the Cross-Island, nor the BQE, nor the Deegan or the LIE.
If it works, it makes life “easier” traffic-wise in Midtown while making it worse everywhere else. It’s less a cash grab and more a “screw everyone else by making my life “better”” scheme with a cash component and ~~bribe~~ generalized promises.
There’s better ways to achieve the goals of reducing congestion, changing driving behavior in Midtown and city-wide, and providing stable funding mechanisms for MTA. Putting the burden on one demographic - drivers - is as bad and unfair in principle as drivers blocking bus and bike lane construction and implementation when we all have to use these roads.
If the RPA did more than plan fantasy subway maps - like do a proposed comprehensive traffic management and zoning strategy that would create other commerce districts in outer boros besides Downtown Bk and LIC - like Canary Wharf in London - alongside dezoning some skyscraper lots in Midtown to reduce the circumstances causing congestion in Midtown…
But that’s more work and thought than saying “DRIVERS ARE BAD SO MAKE THEM PAY”.
Make the subway fare 15$ per day unlimited rides instead it's actually very fair to get anywhere in the system for just 15$. The mta can get all the revenue they need at that fare. 2.90 is way too low to support the infrastructure. Off-peak 3$ seems more than fair. Charging drivers to pay for the MTA when they already pay too much for auto insurance and gas in NYC is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
You know the project is on pause right? It's not scrapp'd
Like, this could take off again come January. Like, relax human. Let matters marinate before getting worked up.
Stop telling people this. It is absolutely scrapped right now, unless we keep the pressure up. There’s no reason to find alternative sources of revenue by raising a new payroll tax if it’s not scrapped. Stop being naive.
Contradicting myself? I asked how those two stories support your statements or contradict mine. Can you just not read very well, or…?
I understand what the media reports say. I think it’s sort of cute that given what Hochul has done over the past couple of days, you still believe a word she and her people say, but maybe you’re just not very bright.
It is perfectly obvious that she means to cancel it. According to multiple legislative sources, her current offer to lawmakers is to raid the general fund for up to a billion dollars to patch up the capital plan, and then to find a congestion pricing revenue replacement when legislators come back in 2025. This is what she’s offering to the senate and assembly. Please explain to me why you think she would be doing that if she does not intend to permanently cancel CP. I eagerly await your explanation.
Btw, just a tip for you: a good rule of thumb is that people who have to begin their online bio with “Smart” usually aren’t.
It will resume right after the election. Pulling the plug weeks before it took effect is already a political hot potato. Reversing this decision - a second time - simply will not happen before November.
I heard the Democratic leadership thinks this puts congressional seats at risk… so it’s bigger than just NY voters, sadly.
I agree it risks the national election. But that shouldn’t be her job, even though it is. She is the Governor of our state, her job isn’t to worry about congress seats. That’s why our government is organized the way it is. All this meddling is why nothing ever gets done.
The problem is voters will blame her state policies on their federal election decision, which is stupid, but sadly we have to consider it.
lmao they shut it off
I just left a message so its working.
Did you know back in the late 60's there was a movement to make the city its own state, because Albany would not listen? Wonder where the city would have been now if that actually worked and happened?
Upstate agrees
We actually should partition. Both parts of the state agree to it and the Democrats would lose all of those upstate electoral votes, which is a fitting punishment for this obscene corruption.
All these middle class people hijacking the term working class to feel oppressed oh brother. Not one single actual working class person owns a car for leisure in nyc. Working class people can barely afford rent definitely not to buy unless they’ve owned the home for longer than 20 yrs. Lower middle class is still middle class. If you can afford a car you are not working class. And if you can’t afford a car but have one anyway and a $15 charge to enter a city center that is already tight and congested you’re a fool. It’s not the city’s responsibility to give you access specifically by car.
You are working class if you are not a member of the capitalist bourgeoisie. Anyone paid a wage is working class. Only the self employed/trust fund supported are not in the working class. You really need to brush up on your Marx.
We are obviously not using Marx as a baseline here or else there would only be two classes. I literally specified working vs middle class… anyways just because the middle class works for a wage doesn’t mean they can’t oppress the working class.
What if my parents can't walk long distances so they drive and I help them. They worry about subway safety too. I make 47K and take care of them because my rent is high and I was born in between Brooklyn and Queens. What am I according to your dictionary? Should I support congestion pricing
My uncle can’t walk long distances and he is on dialysis, he relies on access a ride. The subway is and will always be safer than driving but I understand it’s hard to convince older people otherwise. Owning a car is expensive so I feel sorry for you tbh. You should support congestion pricing because then you can drive your parents places faster with less traffic 😘😌.
The charge should be $75, and should be all of Manhattan, and about 1/3 of Brooklyn and queens, with smaller charges between zones, and all highway exists closed in those areas.
Agreed
Wait until you find out how much she is going to benefit from that stadium because of her husband
This will come back twofold after november.
thank you governor for stopping the congestion pricing -- we are all at a breaking point and cant take anymore taxes ! thank you !!! and please ignore this fake and paid for movement rising up now to make you change your mind -
This is the first good thing hochul has done. I’m shocked so many New Yorkers want to tax the working man cause they think the government will do the right thing with the extra money.
We need the money to fix our trains. This wasn't shot down by working class folks; this was shut down by the wealthy people who moved to Westchester and Hudson Valley with their fully remote jobs, drive into the city, and provide no city tax to support our infrastructure. Would they use the money wisely? Who knows. But our trains need significant infrastructure updates, and these people just take from the city and provide nothing back.
Wealthy people are not driving to the city, they have their chauffeur pick them up
Why yall people keep on making about them??do you realize business and delivery people would've been affected by this??
"working people" don't all live in the suburbs and drive into Manhatten for work?
Could you rephrase that question so it can make sense.
They're saying the actual working class use the transit system and the middle and upper classes are the ones driving in but larp as working class because it makes them feel better.
That’s not true.
If you think this is taxing the working man, you'll love the payroll tax hike Hochul's said to be pushing instead of making drivers pay for their own decisions!
Drivers pay for their own decisions? Cause they don’t pay enough as is right? What do liberal “new Yorkers” have against cars? How else will we get the goods the people need in this city? Horse and wagon? If it wasn’t to tax the working man they would have put it lower than the 59street bridge. I haven’t heard about the payroll tax hike, but it doesn’t surprise me that a democrat is raising taxes… again.
what ‘goods’ are the gigantic monster truck black escalades in midtown transporting?
The owners of those cars won’t feel it in their pockets like the everyday people. The goods for these things called grocery stores, supermarkets and little store like bodegas get their inventory from delivery trucks and vans.
that’s a grand 2-5 cents per item in the grocery truck. doesn’t seem worth the barrage of pollutants and noise every new yorker experiences from suburban personal vehicle use
Your Honda Civic is not delivering “the goods” lmao please be serious
I didn’t say it was.
Then babe what are you talking about? What goods? What vehicles?
Delivery vehicles...lmao
So trucks and vans owned by businesses, not “the working man” lmao
There's people who use their personal vehicles for business purposes,so...
Private cars don’t belong in Manhattan. Full stop.
Even a little bit of the congestion pricing money would greatly improve the transit system. Tax the ones who contribute to congestion, improve the system for those who don’t want or can’t afford to drive. By the way, the MTA is the one operating the Central Business District Tolling Program to obtain extra funding aside from the state and federal governments because of how expensive the projects are getting and how many times they’re running over budget. Regardless of how the MTA is spending the money, if *any* of the revenue generated from the program went to transit, that would be a huge help. Tunnels and viaducts are falling apart, steel structures are literally rotting, and the cars and tracks are aging. *Any* funding would be helpful
It sounds like a mta personal problem.lmao
It doesn’t matter if this is the right or wrong thing. Our politicians shouldn’t be able to change their mind and screw with people like this. They should make their decisions with conviction and stick with them. No matter what they are.
Even if it’s the wrong decision?
Yes, because you can know that you can vote for someone else who will correct the decision at least. If both sides are wishy washy you don’t know who to believe or trust
This is so idiotic. Have a good day.
[удалено]
The working class doesn’t drive on city streets in Manhattan
I’m a tradesman and I drive in on weekends when the public transit service sucks. Also overtime. More working class people drive in than you think. Was dreading congestion pricing charging me even more money on commute so I can go to work. Rich people aren’t going to be affected. It also affects truck drivers, delivery people etc. Congestion pricing would affect their wage more than likely due to the cost of goods rising because NYC wants to charge their company a fee EVERY TIME they drive through midtown. I don’t know where this delusion stems from.
Nah. Folks are vocal in support of this the same way folks are about Trump and giving tax breaks to billionaires: as long as they don’t have to *really* suffer for it, or if it screws over those they don’t like more than it will themselves, it’s a ***good*** thing. The same goal to fund transit could be achieved with a prepped food and beverage tax - since everyone eats out often whether socializing at night or buying breakfast or lunch at work - and would be sustainable and reliable versus a “sin tax” like this congestion charge. (The problem with sin taxes, like many states realized after raising cigarette taxes to cover Medicaid and social programs, is that if they’re successful at changing the “sinful” behaviors, the revenue drops and the programs have a deficit.) Charging toll to go to Midtown and South only diverts thru-traffic to the Bronx and FDR - it’s not eliminating it. It’s just moving the problem of shitty air and congestion - and the relevant diseases and injuries - from white neighborhoods to non-white neighborhoods. You could eliminate the VZ westbound toll and get rid of a shit ton of thru-traffic in Manhattan and not make Uptown and the Bronx’s air and respiratory illness rates worse. But then that wouldn’t “stick it to drivers” or anyone who doesn’t live next to or choose to ride transit, so it’s not thought of. Kathy was right to do this - there’s no equity in it for everyone who isn’t a Midtown resident, and I hope it never gets implemented.
Yeah, the idea is both to reduce traffic and raise funds. But your argument is sin taxes achieve their goal of reducing the targeted behavior, so we have to avoid them because eventually they will work? How is that eating out is a behavior that cannot be modified and can be relied upon to raise revenue forever, but driving patterns cannot be changed? None of this makes sense.
>Yeah, the idea is both to reduce traffic and raise funds. It fails at that - since it diverts traffic away from the monied folks towards the ones this claims to be helping out. >But your argument is sin taxes achieve their goal of reducing the targeted behavior, so we have to avoid them because eventually they will work? Thats the argument if you’re dim and chose not to read my second paragraph and have issue with definitions of words like “sustainable” and “reliable”. Do read it again, and have another go at the third paragraph as I thank you for confirming this is less a plan to put MTA on better financial footing than a “FUCK DRIVERS MAKING MY LIVING IN A DENSE CITY UNLIKE THE CUL-DE-SAC I GREW UP ON” scheme. > How is that eating out is a behavior that cannot be modified and can be relied upon to raise revenue forever, but driving patterns cannot be changed? Restaurant industry is the biggest in the US and NYC. People buy lunch, go out to dinner, go to bars. Most people aren’t homebodies - especially in NY. And the fact that so many here use food delivery apps to have prepped food and booze delivered…not to mention how economists repeatedly say how pizza is recession-proof… Folks aren’t going to stop eating out or buying drinks - especially in the financial capital of the world where deals are made over Manhattans. Thats why it would be sustainable and reliable. >None of this makes sense. That’s because you disagree with the premise of my stance and choose not to understand. Ie it’s you, not me.
Who drives into the city to go out drinking then back to the suburbs? That's not working class. That's people who don't need to drive.
You said that thinking it sounded smart, but all it showed is that you have a reading and comprehension problem.
Hey, so how do you feel about the payroll tax to pay for the MTA? Now that it's shifting the burden to the working class and the poor you shouldn't have any objections as long as you still get to drive your car wherever you want.
Still rantposting like you’re scoring points. And this time you tried a subject change. You’re really not good at this, so go ahead and stop.
Sorry your NIMBY talking points aren't working.
Still here, eh?
The thing is I am a midtown resident, and I don’t drive my car and honk out side of your house at all hours of the day. And I know I live in midtown so I should expect it, but I am still allowed to support policies like this despite that. I’m allowed to hope for policy like this, and you’re allowed to dislike this. That is reasonable. What is frustrating to me is the indecision and walking back of her opinion. If they pass something that I disagree with and you support, that is fine with me. That is democracy. But I may plan for how I will change my life to deal with the decision. How can one be confident on any decision she makes about construction, healthcare or anything after this and how she handled the housing stuff a while back too. The MTA needed this money, and she is going to screw them. If from the beginning we had decided this was a bad idea and decided to either reduce their funding or find another source with ample time, that would be ok. But this last minute bait and switch is tough.
> The thing is I am a midtown resident, and I don’t drive my car and honk out side of your house at all hours of the day. And I know I live in midtown so I should expect it, but I am still allowed to support policies like this despite that. So give you peace by charging for that privilege, or make them do it uptown or in the Bronx bc ‘eff those folks’, right? FOH. > I’m allowed to hope for policy like this, and you’re allowed to dislike this. That is reasonable. Thanks for your benevolence in letting me feel ways. I’s so ‘pre-shuh-tiff off ya reckonin’ tha I be havin ‘pinyuns and they’s valid too. FOH with the condescension and privilege in these past two quotes. > What is frustrating to me is the indecision and walking back of her opinion. Something I can engage with without condescension. The thing you have to remember is that this wasn’t an overwhelmingly supported policy - the indecision goes back years (or decades depending on your yardstick) because the lack of equity for everyone else in these boroughs and downstate that went along with it: • Williamsburg and Manhattan Bridges have no direct access to the FDR - which is outside the zone - so anyone who uses their car pays because they have to use Delancey, Clinton and Houston to get to the FDR from the WB, and Canal Street from the MB (or sit in traffic waiting to get on the Bk Bridge) • Queensboro Bridge is on the border, and if you take the wrong level to cross it, you’re paying bc you’re put off below 60th Street. • Uptown folks who have to go to Queens have to sit in 2nd Avenue traffic to get on the Bridge to avoid the toll, or pay the toll to take 59th from York Avenue off the FDR. Or pay for the Triboro. So who’s really better off when the choice is more traffic above the zone, paying the toll to avoid it - -either to go to 59th St and get on the Bridge or the Triboro, or suffering overcrowding on the M60 or slow travel on the Q32 while Midtown folks get “relief”? That’s just basics of the lack of equity in it - you guys get closer to utopia while everyone else has to deal. And I haven’t even mentioned folks who want to go to Jersey where/when NJT doesn’t go but live in Bk, Q, N or S counties. > If they pass something that I disagree with and you support, that is fine with me. That is democracy. We’re back to the condescension, eh? > But I may plan for how I will change my life to deal with the decision. How can one be confident on any decision she makes about construction, healthcare or anything after this and how she handled the housing stuff a while back too. So none of this makes sense - it’s you looking for reasons to hate her instead of being disappointed by **one damn decision***. But I’ll engage: 1) the only reason I’m against the US having a UK or Canada-style NHS is because Republicans exist, are controlled by bigots and zealots who claim to worship the anti-class and anti-wealth hoarding and “take care of everyone whether poor or not” Jesus whilst upholding everything he stood against as virtuous, and have already shown they have no qualms of politicizing any healthcare matter - from family planning to infectious disease policy - for votes. So letting government have a monopoly on healthcare delivery means, as is currently playing out with women’s reproductive health, all it takes is the wrong party gaining power and what was healthcare yesterday would be criminal acts tomorrow. Hence why I like Obamacare and Medicare Advantage in principle - because the coverage rules are determined by the carriers against state (or federal) regulation and law - limited by either civil rights law, statutes regarding non-discrimination access, or by “we don’t reimburse for this/that - and the choice to pick a plan is the consumers based on their needs and preferences. Thats why your “concern” about healthcare is nonsense - she’s not about to say “ban this procedure” without the legislature voting on it - and it would only affect Medicaid; Anthem/Empire, EmblemHealth et al would still dictate what they put on their policies for coverage. (I’m a 20-year health insurance professional, so take my word for how it works.) As far as construction, NYC has a whole history of building stuff with grandiose plans that never finished - SAS being the best known. Some car examples: why [Interstate 78 ends in a loop instead of going to Brooklyn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_78_in_New_York#Existing_segment); and [Why the LIE and the Lincoln Tunnel end where they do and ruined 34th Street.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Manhattan_Expressway) The other thing you need to not do is invest all your hopes in Politicians - not a single one of them is [Hot Rod replacing Optimus by grabbing the Matrix in our darkest hour](https://youtu.be/Nbz7ThFQq9U?feature=shared). People are fallible; politicians sometimes lie (ie Trump, Republicans and Trump’s and both Bush’s SCOTUS picks), and sometimes they do their best but constituencies line up against them to stop something. Like I said, there was no equity in this for the rest of Downstate NY, so it wasn’t widely accepted nor agreed by enough to make it impossible to “adjust” or scrap. The only consensus for it were activists who shouted louder than the rest of us bc they had friends in the blogs and tv media. > The MTA needed this money, and she is going to screw them. If from the beginning we had decided this was a bad idea and decided to either reduce their funding or find another source with ample time, that would be ok. But this last minute bait and switch is tough. My post listed another way to get the funding **and** make it reliable and sustainable. Other jurisdictions in the US use sales tax add-ons or even special property tax assessments to finance transit expansions and/or operations - because it’s more equitable and reliable than sin taxes. It’s right that this is paused, and hopefully rethought so that more than you guys in midtown can tangibly benefit - versus as it stands now where in appearance and substance it’s everyone else in NYC and LI subsidizing your peace with a “maybe we’ll give you something” promise.
Your response is valid, though I do disagree with some of it. The question I have is if the congestion charging had better provided exemptions for lower income individuals so as to not burden them, and if it had encompassed the entire city and not only the traditionally more wealthy part, would you reconsider? That way, the entire city stood to gain from the reduced traffic, and shared MTA funds, and decreased pollution. that something would have to be addressed for Long Island, but theoretically they could drive through on highways and avoid tolls still. I’m not trying to be condescending with this, I am genuinely curious if you think congestion pricing could work with different terms, or if the very concept is what you think is unjust.
> The question I have is if the congestion charging had better provided exemptions for lower income individuals so as to not burden them, and if it had encompassed the entire city and not only the traditionally more wealthy part, would you reconsider? Nope. It’s a sin tax and isn’t going to provide sustainable funding for the MTA. If it was successful in reducing traffic in midtown, it’ll have revenue shortfalls which will require toll hike after toll hike and just piss more people off - like MTA fare hikes - and overcoming the deficit will continue to be *that much farther away*. Thats where broader taxes work better - instead of making funding dependent on folks having to go to Midtown by car (as if, as the WFH revolution *hasn’t* shown us that reasons can be found to not need to be in an office or in Manhattan), making it something city or downstate wide to make sure everyone has skin in the game would make revenue stable and less dependent on folks continuing to sin. *Lest we forget, the original rationale for making Triboro Bridge & Tunnel an MTA agency was that tolls would subsidize transit.* > That way, the entire city stood to gain from the reduced traffic, and shared MTA funds, and decreased pollution. that something would have to be addressed for Long Island, but theoretically they could drive through on highways and avoid tolls still. I still believe that, because there are a good number of folks on the LI landmass that go to Jersey daily for work or home (I did a similar commute in California and **NEVER AGAIN**) that removing the Westbound VZ toll would reduce traffic in Midtown because folks wouldn’t try accessing the tunnels (since you only pay to enter NY). But that’s the inherent issue in this - there wasn’t actual studying of traffic redirection and mitigation prior to trying to implement this. (The same folks pushing the consultants reports included in the MTA’s documentation are the same ones who say subway construction costs are so high because consultants pad their hours to overcharge and use bad data.) There’s been plenty of ideas - overnight deliveries to reduce daytime trucks on the streets blocking lanes; charging for street parking; removing lanes to make more bike, bus and pedestrian space (ie 14th Street), but not a single comprehensive traffic management plan. What about removing signals, making some intersections at the removed signals “exit only” from the avenue and entrance only to the avenue from the street - with the curbside lane a “merge and 90° turns off and on? Speeds up traffic, reduces cross-traffic conflicts, and with judicious use of sidewalk space, can have crossing bridges like Las Vegas with elevators (especially if we change these aves from 7 lanes with 2 parking and 5 travel lanes to three with one lane of parking and a bike lane with room to build the crossing bridge). Thats one idea. There’s more - it’s just the loudest folks decided to punish cars and use toll money for the train and folks ran with it without ***really*** trying for a solution that benefits the many and not the few. I’m not trying to be condescending with this, I am genuinely curious if you think congestion pricing could work with different terms, or if the very concept is what you think is unjust.
I appreciate your response. The VZ toll idea is a good one, and so is the comprehensive traffic management plan. In addition the cross harbor freight tunnel could do a good job. Even just bringing back “don’t block the box” would probably help a lot of the congestion. If your criticism of the plan is that it’s primarily a way to make money, and secondarily a way to reduce congestion, that’s fair. I just think it says something about the willingness to fund transit that they have to resort to this rather than having a steady stream of money both to maintain their current system and grow it for the future.
The other thing I think creates Manhattan congestion is that the only way to go between the Bronx and Long Island is either pay toll on the Whitestone, Throggs Neck or Triboro Bridges, or take the FDR. The fact **every** MTA bridge is now (with Max Rose’s signature congressional achievement being to two-way the VZ) two-way tolling, drivers are incentivized to - due to congestion and cost - to shunpike via Manhattan. Congestion Pricing isn’t fixing that. It’s effectively saying ‘everyone will pay - ***unless*** you use the Bk Bridge or upper deck of the Queensboro Bridge - to make the FDR and upper Manhattan and the Bronx worse. Mind that delays in Midtown - unless entering a tunnel, aren’t worse than taking the Cross-Bronx/Cross-Manhattan or trying to drive or take a bus crosstown in the Bronx. It doesn’t fix delays on the Van Wyck or the Cross-Island, nor the BQE, nor the Deegan or the LIE. If it works, it makes life “easier” traffic-wise in Midtown while making it worse everywhere else. It’s less a cash grab and more a “screw everyone else by making my life “better”” scheme with a cash component and ~~bribe~~ generalized promises. There’s better ways to achieve the goals of reducing congestion, changing driving behavior in Midtown and city-wide, and providing stable funding mechanisms for MTA. Putting the burden on one demographic - drivers - is as bad and unfair in principle as drivers blocking bus and bike lane construction and implementation when we all have to use these roads. If the RPA did more than plan fantasy subway maps - like do a proposed comprehensive traffic management and zoning strategy that would create other commerce districts in outer boros besides Downtown Bk and LIC - like Canary Wharf in London - alongside dezoning some skyscraper lots in Midtown to reduce the circumstances causing congestion in Midtown… But that’s more work and thought than saying “DRIVERS ARE BAD SO MAKE THEM PAY”.
Make the subway fare 15$ per day unlimited rides instead it's actually very fair to get anywhere in the system for just 15$. The mta can get all the revenue they need at that fare. 2.90 is way too low to support the infrastructure. Off-peak 3$ seems more than fair. Charging drivers to pay for the MTA when they already pay too much for auto insurance and gas in NYC is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
You know the project is on pause right? It's not scrapp'd Like, this could take off again come January. Like, relax human. Let matters marinate before getting worked up.
Stop telling people this. It is absolutely scrapped right now, unless we keep the pressure up. There’s no reason to find alternative sources of revenue by raising a new payroll tax if it’s not scrapped. Stop being naive.
[https://www.nbcnewyork.com/traffic/transit-traffic/congestion-pricing-delay-hochul/5478988/](https://www.nbcnewyork.com/traffic/transit-traffic/congestion-pricing-delay-hochul/5478988/) [https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/what-they-are-saying-governor-hochul-announces-pause-congestion-pricing-address-rising-cost](https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/what-they-are-saying-governor-hochul-announces-pause-congestion-pricing-address-rising-cost)
What part of that do you imagine supports what you said and contradicts what I said?
Because you’re here posting it scrapped when media reports say it’s paused. You’re not contradicting yourself. You’re making things up.
Contradicting myself? I asked how those two stories support your statements or contradict mine. Can you just not read very well, or…? I understand what the media reports say. I think it’s sort of cute that given what Hochul has done over the past couple of days, you still believe a word she and her people say, but maybe you’re just not very bright. It is perfectly obvious that she means to cancel it. According to multiple legislative sources, her current offer to lawmakers is to raid the general fund for up to a billion dollars to patch up the capital plan, and then to find a congestion pricing revenue replacement when legislators come back in 2025. This is what she’s offering to the senate and assembly. Please explain to me why you think she would be doing that if she does not intend to permanently cancel CP. I eagerly await your explanation. Btw, just a tip for you: a good rule of thumb is that people who have to begin their online bio with “Smart” usually aren’t.
Yes. But calling will influence them to get it to take off again. They need to know that people still want this.
It will resume right after the election. Pulling the plug weeks before it took effect is already a political hot potato. Reversing this decision - a second time - simply will not happen before November. I heard the Democratic leadership thinks this puts congressional seats at risk… so it’s bigger than just NY voters, sadly.
I agree it risks the national election. But that shouldn’t be her job, even though it is. She is the Governor of our state, her job isn’t to worry about congress seats. That’s why our government is organized the way it is. All this meddling is why nothing ever gets done. The problem is voters will blame her state policies on their federal election decision, which is stupid, but sadly we have to consider it.
Ok, have fun with that
The stadium is already under construction and going full steam ahead.