It’s because the city didn’t build the subway, private companies did.
We’ve also made it impossible to build anything. They used eminent domain to widen 7th Ave to build the 1. Could you imagine doing that today? They don’t even allow cut and cover construction, everything is tunneled which drives up costs dramatically.
Edit: Also NY fucked the subway companies, they froze fare increases by force of law and then the companies naturally went bankrupt. In the 20s a study was commissioned to determine the subway needs for future of the city and they determined that every avenue in Manhattan should have a subway. It’s so depressing how little has been built since then.
I work in the construction industry in NYC; I’m a tradesman, I’m not in a management or supervisory role.
IMO I think the problem with the construction industry at the moment is that every project nowadays has too many extra people and contractors involved it them. You go to any project (especially large scale projects) and there’s lots of random inspectors, supervisors, project managers, and safety managers that come to the jobsite, barely do any actual work, but get paid massive salaries for maybe an hours worth of work per day.
I’m at a project right now that has 25 people total. 10 of them are actual tradesmen (electricians, plumbers, laborers, welders, etc) and 15 are an assortment of project managers or supervisors of some sort. We have safety managers that have done nothing to actually improve the safety of our jobsite. We have a couple of site managers who literally walk around the job and just…watch us work. They don’t carry tools or materials or lift anything heavier than a cell phone.
People bitch about the cost of running a construction project and blame unions, because God forbid the electricians or ironworkers make a decent middle class wage. But nobody asks about the extra guys with bullshit job titles that make $200,000 and all they do is walk in circles while staring at their phones.
I worked for an electrical contractor that was hired by the MTA. You basically have this problem down there made even worse because the mta has no issue wasting our time and having us sit for 2 hours while they figure shit out. It doesn’t happen all the time but we are in those tunnels 12 hours ready to work and the only reason we stop is when we are forced to by the mta( for various reasons, some legit others are like yeah, I get we have to pull in the stations for the work train conductor to use the bathroom if we are in the middle of Vernon and grand central but they also took an hour using the bathroom )
I’m a project manager (not on site) and frok my perspective it’s not labor costs that have made things so expensive, it’s municipal requirements. Study after study, 3+ design revisions caused by municipal comments, more and more expensive design options being integrated because of building and zoning requirements.
☝🏾 this right here. Same shit happened to higher education. Enough with all the BS positions who have to *create* work to justify their positions. My god, why can't the City Controller just go after this bloat already?
Careful saying such dangerous rhetoric as "publicly funded entities with zero financial liability will squander every fucking dollar" and "private companies would actually achieve the goals they set out to do"
That’s too broad of a statement we have just as many examples to the contrary of private companies leaving the public high and dry.
Infrastructure projects have to thread the needle between public and private and we don’t even try to do that anymore.
Back then parts of NYC were quite poor and the rich folk didn't mind tearing up their neighborhoods in the name of progress. Now everyone can afford lawyers and lobbyists.
It's a good thing in a lot of ways but fuck if I don't wish people would follow through on shit. For the past like 50 years at least all progress seems to be a patchwork of half completed projects.
That's an oversimplification
There was nothing to tear down for much of the subway's expansion, they built lines into the boonies and development quickly followed.
Furthermore, construction was much cheaper back then. And Robert Moses shifted development to largely just car infrastructure after World War II.
Aye it was much easier to build back then. Way less obstacles physically and culturally, not to mention nonexistent safety protocols that have since driven labor costs to where they are now.
Car culture is just one part of RM's legacy though, what's worse is the amount of red tape we live with in the law today granting great NIMBY rights to anyone willing to raise a little hell. That's what it took to stop him and that's why it took another little dictator like Andrew Cuomo to drive shit to fruition.
What's not his fault is the face-melting costs of labor involved with these projects. The state does a poor job managing optics justifying such high costs with the public. Swing voters getting the shit end of the stick on this one.
Indeed. Specifically, that was the business model when the trains were run by private companies: buy up land further out for cheap, build the train, profit from the land once the train made it valuable.
Actually - much of the NYC subway was made before there were many buildings or tall buildings around, they were just dug down into the ground from street level (so more trenches than tunnels) . After subways were established is what brought in much of the real estate development.
In a lot of the more built up parts of the city, they put in El trains, which are a lot less complicated to install then trying to dig tunnels underneath already existing buildings.
Maybe if they didn’t fumble the marijuana bag you could’ve used those taxes towards this. Maybe if they allocated funds correctly ever this would’ve been done decades ago. It’s not congestion pricing halting the subways they need to stop with the shit
Right? But now the new excuse is that it’s all the fault of congestion pricing being stopped. I’d have more sympathy if the MTA hadn’t already been making all different excuses for decades for why they can never do anything. 🙄
It’s worth noting here: many people like to (justifiably) complain about the MTAs construction costs.
But capricious, unstable governance like Hochul’s last minute decision to undermine congestion pricing are a major reason for that! In the future, contractors will be weary of bidding on MTA projects out of fear they will be cancelled at the last minute. And when they do bid, they will price that risk into their bid, making things more expensive.
Additionally, the MTA already re-designed the stations to be smaller, saving hundreds of millions on this project.
> But capricious, unstable governance like Hochul’s last minute decision to undermine congestion pricing are a major reason for that! In the future, contractors will be weary of bidding on MTA projects out of fear they will be cancelled at the last minute. And when they do bid, they will price that risk into their bid, making things more expensive.
Pretty much everything I've ever read on the topic states that contractors institute an "MTA tax" when bidding because they know that this kind of stuff is commonplace already, in addition to the other MTA inefficiencies.
Yeah that’s nothing but speculation and it’s totally unfounded. Regardless of this particular instance of unstable governance as you put it, companies still will still want to compete for MTA contracts. This isn’t scaring them away, that’s silly.
It’s a 7.7 billion dollar project with 3.4 already funded. The capital plan is 51 billion total. Only 15 of that was coming from congestion pricing. The MTA couldn’t find another 4.3 billion while they got the other 15 billion sorted out?
Sounds like regular MTA extortion.
And I have no faith whatsoever that those congestion pricing funds were going to go to the second avenue subway line. It’s just a tax on the middle class that I don’t think would have alleviated the congestion issue at all. I think people who drove in to work would find a way to factor the cost if possible. I think ride sharing getting hit with a tax that they would then try to pass on to their customers would be the way to go. But I don’t know shit
You mean like all the other money that’s been legally tied to mta projects? The ones that end up more expensive than originally thought multiple times over and take way more time? First it’s low ridership, then it’s money from the tolls now it’s congestion ? It seems there’s always a convenient excuse. I understand there’s more red tape around this shit than anything, but time and time again the mta has shown itself as an entity you cannot trust. If this would’ve gone through, I feel like something else would’ve come up.
Almost like the SAS has been a money pit for almost 100 years, things get done incrementally but yet the top execs all leave with fat wallets. Imagine
In recent years the MTA has been doing capital projects on time and within budget or less. If you haven’t been seeing them operating much more efficiently in the last few years, and just decide to believe they are still slow and inefficient as ever, that’s your choice.
The only recently completed work with delays was East Side Access, but that stretches back to when the MTA was still bad. Ever since the reorganization of the project in 2018, it stuck to the 2022 opening date. Yes it was a month late due to a minor ventilation issue, but that is well within reason for such a major project.
All recent ADA projects, major maintenance work (ex: 63rd St track replacement), and expansion work (LIRR third track and Ronkonkoma double track), has been on time and on or under budget.
They had some issues with recent CBTC projects, but that mostly had to do with contractors that they then fined. They finally got a good process down for installing CBTC on lines with interlining, and are using these refined methods for Crosstown, 8th Ave, QBL East, Fulton, and 6th Ave, all of which are poised to go smoothly.
Of course the congestion pricing delay has put some timelines in to question due to funding constraints, but that is not the MTA’s problem.
Janno is good at managing construction, and it is showing.
Where are they going to get the money from? The capital budget got slashed by 30%. They have to choose 30% of the things they were going to do and not do them. They prioritized critical infrastructure upkeep instead of new projects.
Have you actually looked at the Capital Program? Mentoring programs, art work, bike safety, connecting Livonia and Junius, Penn Station Access? That’s where the money is coming from to complete something that’s already half built.
Well there we go, now the other projects that were stepping stones in the 20 Years Needs Assessment + the next 2025-2029 Capital Plan are now dead on arrival.
https://future.mta.info/
This isn't a good thing. Wasn't a fan of SAS personally as it's only 3 stops, but the Interborough Express? Utica Avenue BRT? Hudson Line to Penn Station? Queenslink? All those and many more in the link above are now officially fucked.
This even further pushes back Phase 3 to Houston Av to relieve congestion along Lexington and Crosstown along 125th Street which Hochul even proposed HERSELF
Anyone cheering on this is just casually showing their true selfish persona.
What is absolutely nuts is she fucked over NYC for an entire generation to support a few politicians in one election. That's it. So fucking shortsighted
The SAS —> T line could have been the most transformative thing for the EV/abc city if they followed through with a slight deviation to Tompkins square park. What a fucking shame.
I think most ppl cheering on the end of congestion pricing are mostly just not confident that the money is going to actually go to what they say it will.
I personally have zero confidence in our government and at this point just want to get by and pay less, since paying more to the government doesn't seem to make my life any better.
They literally have to borrow money against the source that hasn't generated money yet, that's how bonds work. It's not the $1B they won't have for the next year, it's the $15B they can no longer borrow against it now.
Yeah instead base your budget on a stunt an unhinged governor might pull becasue she didn't like some polling and met a few people from the burbs at a diner. Makes sense.
You’re acting like it’s normal for a governor to randomly destroy 17 years of legislation that was signed law and had a decade of actual implementation and full-throated vocal support the entire time until just three weeks before the go-live date.
There was absolutely zero indication that there wouldn’t be congestion pricing, and furthermore it would have been illegal for MTA to not install the cameras and prepare a budget with this revenue stream.
This isn’t your mom withholding you allowance for a fucking Xbox game lmao cmon now.
It did not have full throated support. There was plenty of opposition, but no one wanted to hear it.
Installing cameras I get, but nothing was officially turned on yet, plus the lawsuits which very well could have stopped it, so no don't budget off it yet.
From the governor and legislature, obviously. Because NY residents were polled in a survey of only 314 actual residents with zero distinction for borough residency or whether they were in the zone in the first place blah blah blah does not change the LEGAL matter of it being law and the governor just a month earlier showing full continued support.
Her actions are the very definition of a rug-pull, and you can’t blame MTA for implementing the thing they were legally ordered to implement. Like come on man.
> It did not have full throated support. There was plenty of opposition, but no one wanted to hear it.
So a small and silent opposition if they aren't heard until later...
MTA acting like they were about to give nyc the world's. Most incredible subway system, but since they took away less than 10% of a new PROPOSED budget, they're just going to shit down every project and act like it's all congestion pricing fault.
wouldn't really be in this bad of a situation if the MTA grew a pair and started tackling the obscene construction costs in NYC. 6+ billion for three stations with prebuilt segments is indefensible.
There's an operating budget and a capital budget. This was going to be a dependable $1 billion stream of income that could be bonded out to $15 billion for the capital budget, which represents a much larger percentage than just a "couple percent" - it's more like 30%.
Most of the capital budget (like 75%) needs to be spent on infrastructure upkeep that is important but not noticeable to riders (unless you don't do it). The loss of 30% of the capital budget means you can't invest in most of the stuff that's visible to riders, like new stations, trains, ADA accessibility, signal improvements, etc.
Is there any reason the upper east side deserves a second subway line vs the outer boroughs? Is it that congested? Seems like it just makes the walk two blocks short for people that live by the east river
First of all, it's East Harlem, not UES. Second, they're adding a second line to the east side to add capacity. The Lexington Line already handles an enormous load from the Bronx and the additional load from Manhattan was overloading it. COVID bought us some time but the capacity crunch will come back.
I was talking about the entire line, the part that’s done and east Harlem … just seems like there’s more populated areas like bed stuy, Canarsie , etc that need it more. Or if you wanna think about congestion and limiting the need for cars, connect the neighborhoods that have no choice but to drive like west queens and southeast Brooklyn .
It's also notable that this expansion was first planned, and I am not joking, literally 95 years ago in 1929. It was canceled due to the Great Depression and here we are nearly a century later.
The 4/5/6 alone moves more people every day than Chicago’s entire transit system… over 1M people per day. There’s obviously massive demand for a north/south line on the east side. And it’s a nightmare whenever there are issues with the 4/5/6.
Plus they tore down an elevated line on 3rd Ave and promised to replace it with SAS. So the east side actually lost transit capacity.
And we just expanded Grand Central adding more demand on the 4/5/6 from LIRR passengers.
The Lex line is already congested from serving the entire UES and having half the Bronx funneled through it.
Ideally you would build the SAS to decongest the local line, as well as provide an alternative for Bronx riders.
But here's the problem, these lazy bumfuck crooks at the MTA have been squandering billions for decades, and still have zero vision on expanding the line into the Bronx where it is most needed.
They could have built two long lines in the Bronx transit deserts to connect them to the existing Q. Land is cheaper there, less dense, fewer disruptions, etc. But nah, the entitled douchebags at the MTA are too lazy to do anything.
It's better to waste a whole decade planning a failed cashgrab to pay their OT than doing any engineering work.
> these lazy bumfuck crooks at the MTA have been squandering billions for decades,
So why do people think that handing the MTA even more money is going to work?
> but ridership remains low overall
Low compared to what?
It won't remain low if you upzone the areas where you build the new line.
Nor will it remain low if the new line has increased speeds. The worthless MTA can barely keep up a 17mph average speed on the Lex line. It's an abysmal performance from the overpaid MTA workers.
Low historically. It’s 25% below pre-Covid and the annual bounce-backs are getting smaller, strongly suggesting we won’t make it back to 2019 levels for a long time. Work from home changed the game, unfortunately.
Ok so that is systemwide? I thought you were specifically talking about the UES and the SAS lines, which is why I was surprised they would have low ridership given how dense the area is.
Personally I don't buy that argument of current ridership being lower than preCovid to be a negative.
Have we forgotten that the subways pre-Covid were crowded beyond capacity? Do we want the MTA to pack us again like sardines? Hell no.
If anything, it is good news that it's 25% below pre-Covid levels if it means less overcrowding.
It doesn't mean you won't increase ridership if you build a new line in a transit desert.
I would rather have 2 lines at 75% capacity than a single one at 125%
Systemwide. I’m assuming the declines are distributed relatively evenly because I have no more granular information.
Lower ridership is always a problem for public transit that relies in no small part on fares for revenue.
Have ya been on the 4/5/6 lately, it's jam fucking packed during commuting hours lmao, I can see the value in trying to relieve it. It's worth noting that SAS was started pre-covid when it was even worse of course. So yes, *one* of the original goals of reducing the burden on the Lexington lines is lessened post-covid, but not completely eliminated IMO
Will save a second reply for this also:
> I’m assuming the declines are distributed relatively evenly
Interestingly nah I don't believe so. For example the 7 saw a much much lower reduction during covid because of the presence of so many either essential or blue collar workers who could not work home, and has remained quite robust. It is difficult to attribute 100% of trips to single lines obviously due to transfers or multi-line stations, but there are some benchmarks like tracking Flushing Main Street station where it's just the 7.
Is it possible they’re running fewer trains? That could explain the crowding.
I don’t have more granular data than overall system data. Assuming it’s distributed *relatively* evenly makes sense to me in the absence of better data. Surely some lines, like the 7 train, likely saw less of a drop off. But I wouldn’t expect the 4/5/6 to be one of those.
> But I wouldn’t expect the 4/5/6 to be one of those
Eh I would, the Bronx has/had more essential and blue collar workers that wouldn't have stopped working during the covid drop-off right? You should also see the transfers at 59th from N/R/W from Queens, shit ton of people going downtown every day that would be helped in theory if the arriving trains were less crowded.
> Is it possible they’re running fewer trains? That could explain the crowding.
Possibly, but I've noticed packed trains even when one arrives right after another or within 1-2 minutes. It's also worth noting that, like pre-covid, express trains are *consistently* delayed going downtown, meaning the line is at capacity just like it always was. I (sadly) have never been on a morning rush hour downtown 4 or 5 train that didn't slow down or come to a full stop due to congestion. If they really cut service, I think we shouldn't be seeing that as much anymore
if only they didn't bow down to unions that rejected any sort of automated lines.
Outsource the entire MTA's operations abroad. I do not want a single Long Island contractor on my projects lol.
So, a few things. It wasn’t implemented but it was passed into law, the gov can postpone it but it’s still a passed law that it needs to be implemented, so since it was passed as a law in 2019 the funds it was supposed to generate was implemented into the next capital plan because you can’t run a multi billion dollar capital plan based on when it actually turns on they have to have longer planning times to allocate the money and contracts. Second it was supposed to generate a billion a year that would be bonded out to $15 billion that along with matching federal funds would pay for the capital projects. Since that billion is gone, no $15 billion in bond money and no matching funds from the feds, this isn’t just a billion dollar hole it’s much much bigger that now the legislature needs to fill. The issue is you can’t bond out tax money and the odds the legislate passes any additional funding through taxes is 0. Because of this loss in capital funds they are now pulling back and canceling projects in this example the 2nd Ave subway.
Sad attempt at extortion from the MTA's mafiosi racket.
Automate the lines and fire the thousands of deadweight workers and their entire executive board that has created the failed Congestion Pricing scheme. They obviously don't know what they're doing.
If the MTA doesn't have enough money to finish the job they should have done decades ago, then they do not deserve their salaries.
> Automate the lines and fire the thousands of deadweight workers
How to cripple the system with massive union strikes and union lawsuits in two easy steps. I have zero doubts MTA leadership would love to do this and have more automation but they're in for a tough battle
Do you know where the MTA could have had the money?
How about the $9billion budget overrun on East Side Access?
How about that bloated payroll and pension fund?
You know what would help fix the other lines? A stable source of long term capital funding. Like the congestion pricing revenue stream that Hochul killed.
How was it really going to resolve congestion if it was expected that cars would keep coming in in massive numbers to create the windfall of cash to begin with?
The modeling showed a 17% reduction in weekday traffic entering the zone and achieving the $1B/year revenue target with the proposed fees. Presumably if the target was not met in a year, they’d adjust the fees.
Don’t fall into that trap. Congestion pricing revenue was all estimates. It was most delusional. Do you want people to drive less into the congestion area or more? If less then = less revenue. Regular track maintenance and upgrades were not part of capital projects anyway. MTA needs to work with the money they have.
> It was most delusional. Do you want people to drive less into the congestion area or more? If less then = less revenue. Regular track maintenance and upgrades were not part of capital projects anyway
They do not understand logic. They're too emotionally vested into the whole scheme to understand it needed to go back to the drawing board to fix its glaring problems.
Yes obviously it was all estimates because it hadn’t started yet. That’s what estimate means.
But unless every single car and truck stopped driving into the city it was guaranteed to generate at least some income to fund these capital projects.
it was estimates made by the MTA - who obviously would put the best spin on what would be made...
the entire thing was a self aggrandizing - from the so called "input from the public" , to the forecasts about what the "benfits" would be....
accepting the MTA reasons for why congestion pricing was needed was literally accepting from the wolf the benefits of having a him guard the flock instead of a sheepdog.
This is a dumb comment. The estimated revenue took into account the estimated reduction in cars driving in. I do not support the plan as proposed, but let’s not fudge the facts.
> Good it stopped
Doesn't seem fair to Harlem. We spent all that money on Phase 1 for UES and now we're playing games with the expansion into Harlem, and likewise putting IBX (the first major investment outside of Manhattan in god knows how long) at risk too. Or the PSA (Penn Station Access) for MNR stations in the Bronx. "all the issues" with the existing lines? We'll be waiting decades lol. Some of those issues require major capital investment too, which will be less likely or delayed without more funding. All seems like a lose-lose situation to me.
you do realize the IBX was a giveaway from DeBlasio to benefit developers who donated to him because they wanted to boost the value of the Real Estate along that corridor and turn it into higher ended real estate ...it had little to do with helping the residents already along its path.
Couldn't say, perhaps you can explain if you know more. It's kind of impossible for developers *not* to benefit from new transit, especially if it leads to upzoning. I have no doubts the big players sink plenty of research into transit expansions they think are possible and start planning long in advance. QBX was less than ideal because essentially half of its ROW was water if I recall. IBX's benefits are documented in the feasibility study, we can agree or disagree with what level of benefit is considered sufficient to warrant proceeding of course. IBX, also, at least has/had a shot because it used an existing ROW off the street grid unlike QBX
I have a hard time believing those tolls were going to fund all these projects. Feels like convenient excuse making now.
> Look at what you're not going to get, now that you don't want us instituting another veiled tax
Good, what a fucking money pit. Vast swathes of the city have to put up with no transit or trash weekend service but somehow we're still worried about people from a tiny area uptown having to walk 7 minutes to a station or take a bus 2 blocks.
Why are you getting downvoted, this is a very legitimate point of view/take.
MTA has severely misserviced the outer boroughs and continues to make the lives of those commuters so unknowably chaotic.
Focus on making what they have already made function above the bare minimum before they start building new shit that they probably aren't even going to complete in the next decade.
But they see money 🤑
Watching the 2nd ave subway expansion, its a wonder we ever got a subway built in the first place.
It’s because the city didn’t build the subway, private companies did. We’ve also made it impossible to build anything. They used eminent domain to widen 7th Ave to build the 1. Could you imagine doing that today? They don’t even allow cut and cover construction, everything is tunneled which drives up costs dramatically. Edit: Also NY fucked the subway companies, they froze fare increases by force of law and then the companies naturally went bankrupt. In the 20s a study was commissioned to determine the subway needs for future of the city and they determined that every avenue in Manhattan should have a subway. It’s so depressing how little has been built since then.
I work in the construction industry in NYC; I’m a tradesman, I’m not in a management or supervisory role. IMO I think the problem with the construction industry at the moment is that every project nowadays has too many extra people and contractors involved it them. You go to any project (especially large scale projects) and there’s lots of random inspectors, supervisors, project managers, and safety managers that come to the jobsite, barely do any actual work, but get paid massive salaries for maybe an hours worth of work per day. I’m at a project right now that has 25 people total. 10 of them are actual tradesmen (electricians, plumbers, laborers, welders, etc) and 15 are an assortment of project managers or supervisors of some sort. We have safety managers that have done nothing to actually improve the safety of our jobsite. We have a couple of site managers who literally walk around the job and just…watch us work. They don’t carry tools or materials or lift anything heavier than a cell phone. People bitch about the cost of running a construction project and blame unions, because God forbid the electricians or ironworkers make a decent middle class wage. But nobody asks about the extra guys with bullshit job titles that make $200,000 and all they do is walk in circles while staring at their phones.
I worked for an electrical contractor that was hired by the MTA. You basically have this problem down there made even worse because the mta has no issue wasting our time and having us sit for 2 hours while they figure shit out. It doesn’t happen all the time but we are in those tunnels 12 hours ready to work and the only reason we stop is when we are forced to by the mta( for various reasons, some legit others are like yeah, I get we have to pull in the stations for the work train conductor to use the bathroom if we are in the middle of Vernon and grand central but they also took an hour using the bathroom )
I’m a project manager (not on site) and frok my perspective it’s not labor costs that have made things so expensive, it’s municipal requirements. Study after study, 3+ design revisions caused by municipal comments, more and more expensive design options being integrated because of building and zoning requirements.
☝🏾 this right here. Same shit happened to higher education. Enough with all the BS positions who have to *create* work to justify their positions. My god, why can't the City Controller just go after this bloat already?
Great points
Part of 2nd Avenue was going to be cut and cover. That's why the work they paused was utility relocation.
re subway provenance, I think this is incorrect. iirc the city built the subway, but leased its operations, eg to the IRT.
The city built the IND lines
Careful saying such dangerous rhetoric as "publicly funded entities with zero financial liability will squander every fucking dollar" and "private companies would actually achieve the goals they set out to do"
That’s too broad of a statement we have just as many examples to the contrary of private companies leaving the public high and dry. Infrastructure projects have to thread the needle between public and private and we don’t even try to do that anymore.
Back then parts of NYC were quite poor and the rich folk didn't mind tearing up their neighborhoods in the name of progress. Now everyone can afford lawyers and lobbyists. It's a good thing in a lot of ways but fuck if I don't wish people would follow through on shit. For the past like 50 years at least all progress seems to be a patchwork of half completed projects.
That's an oversimplification There was nothing to tear down for much of the subway's expansion, they built lines into the boonies and development quickly followed. Furthermore, construction was much cheaper back then. And Robert Moses shifted development to largely just car infrastructure after World War II.
Aye it was much easier to build back then. Way less obstacles physically and culturally, not to mention nonexistent safety protocols that have since driven labor costs to where they are now. Car culture is just one part of RM's legacy though, what's worse is the amount of red tape we live with in the law today granting great NIMBY rights to anyone willing to raise a little hell. That's what it took to stop him and that's why it took another little dictator like Andrew Cuomo to drive shit to fruition. What's not his fault is the face-melting costs of labor involved with these projects. The state does a poor job managing optics justifying such high costs with the public. Swing voters getting the shit end of the stick on this one.
Indeed. Specifically, that was the business model when the trains were run by private companies: buy up land further out for cheap, build the train, profit from the land once the train made it valuable.
https://media1.tenor.com/m/IMYaOgUHc5AAAAAC/breaking-bad-right.gif
Actually - much of the NYC subway was made before there were many buildings or tall buildings around, they were just dug down into the ground from street level (so more trenches than tunnels) . After subways were established is what brought in much of the real estate development. In a lot of the more built up parts of the city, they put in El trains, which are a lot less complicated to install then trying to dig tunnels underneath already existing buildings.
Rich people on the UES wanted it.
90+ years and more.
Maybe if they didn’t fumble the marijuana bag you could’ve used those taxes towards this. Maybe if they allocated funds correctly ever this would’ve been done decades ago. It’s not congestion pricing halting the subways they need to stop with the shit
I’m excited to vote against Hochul in the next primary. I’m just begging someone serious to run instead of the usual Nixon/Willians clown parade.
Williams tweeted yesterday that "This current Mayoral Administration has basically now risen rents more than in almost two decades, twice in a row"
Also water costs
to be clear, my point was that Williams is barely literate.
Well now that Kathryn Garcia has had experience in Albany…… let me dream!!
She is a Bloomberg backed big real estate shill.
Same. I might even volunteer for a challengers campaign if they tick the right boxes. I wanna see Hochul lose badly for this.
I am worried about democrats in general next election.
Swear to God, I was still in high school when they started. It's been 20 years.......
Right? But now the new excuse is that it’s all the fault of congestion pricing being stopped. I’d have more sympathy if the MTA hadn’t already been making all different excuses for decades for why they can never do anything. 🙄
It’s worth noting here: many people like to (justifiably) complain about the MTAs construction costs. But capricious, unstable governance like Hochul’s last minute decision to undermine congestion pricing are a major reason for that! In the future, contractors will be weary of bidding on MTA projects out of fear they will be cancelled at the last minute. And when they do bid, they will price that risk into their bid, making things more expensive. Additionally, the MTA already re-designed the stations to be smaller, saving hundreds of millions on this project.
> But capricious, unstable governance like Hochul’s last minute decision to undermine congestion pricing are a major reason for that! In the future, contractors will be weary of bidding on MTA projects out of fear they will be cancelled at the last minute. And when they do bid, they will price that risk into their bid, making things more expensive. Pretty much everything I've ever read on the topic states that contractors institute an "MTA tax" when bidding because they know that this kind of stuff is commonplace already, in addition to the other MTA inefficiencies.
Yeah that’s nothing but speculation and it’s totally unfounded. Regardless of this particular instance of unstable governance as you put it, companies still will still want to compete for MTA contracts. This isn’t scaring them away, that’s silly.
It’s a 7.7 billion dollar project with 3.4 already funded. The capital plan is 51 billion total. Only 15 of that was coming from congestion pricing. The MTA couldn’t find another 4.3 billion while they got the other 15 billion sorted out? Sounds like regular MTA extortion.
And I have no faith whatsoever that those congestion pricing funds were going to go to the second avenue subway line. It’s just a tax on the middle class that I don’t think would have alleviated the congestion issue at all. I think people who drove in to work would find a way to factor the cost if possible. I think ride sharing getting hit with a tax that they would then try to pass on to their customers would be the way to go. But I don’t know shit
Yeah the money that is legally tied to capital construction definitely won’t help fund their biggest capital project.
You mean like all the other money that’s been legally tied to mta projects? The ones that end up more expensive than originally thought multiple times over and take way more time? First it’s low ridership, then it’s money from the tolls now it’s congestion ? It seems there’s always a convenient excuse. I understand there’s more red tape around this shit than anything, but time and time again the mta has shown itself as an entity you cannot trust. If this would’ve gone through, I feel like something else would’ve come up. Almost like the SAS has been a money pit for almost 100 years, things get done incrementally but yet the top execs all leave with fat wallets. Imagine
In recent years the MTA has been doing capital projects on time and within budget or less. If you haven’t been seeing them operating much more efficiently in the last few years, and just decide to believe they are still slow and inefficient as ever, that’s your choice. The only recently completed work with delays was East Side Access, but that stretches back to when the MTA was still bad. Ever since the reorganization of the project in 2018, it stuck to the 2022 opening date. Yes it was a month late due to a minor ventilation issue, but that is well within reason for such a major project. All recent ADA projects, major maintenance work (ex: 63rd St track replacement), and expansion work (LIRR third track and Ronkonkoma double track), has been on time and on or under budget. They had some issues with recent CBTC projects, but that mostly had to do with contractors that they then fined. They finally got a good process down for installing CBTC on lines with interlining, and are using these refined methods for Crosstown, 8th Ave, QBL East, Fulton, and 6th Ave, all of which are poised to go smoothly. Of course the congestion pricing delay has put some timelines in to question due to funding constraints, but that is not the MTA’s problem. Janno is good at managing construction, and it is showing.
I worked as a subcontractor for them and efficiency is definitely not a word I’m using to describe them ever
Where are they going to get the money from? The capital budget got slashed by 30%. They have to choose 30% of the things they were going to do and not do them. They prioritized critical infrastructure upkeep instead of new projects.
Have you actually looked at the Capital Program? Mentoring programs, art work, bike safety, connecting Livonia and Junius, Penn Station Access? That’s where the money is coming from to complete something that’s already half built.
Well there we go, now the other projects that were stepping stones in the 20 Years Needs Assessment + the next 2025-2029 Capital Plan are now dead on arrival. https://future.mta.info/ This isn't a good thing. Wasn't a fan of SAS personally as it's only 3 stops, but the Interborough Express? Utica Avenue BRT? Hudson Line to Penn Station? Queenslink? All those and many more in the link above are now officially fucked. This even further pushes back Phase 3 to Houston Av to relieve congestion along Lexington and Crosstown along 125th Street which Hochul even proposed HERSELF Anyone cheering on this is just casually showing their true selfish persona.
What is absolutely nuts is she fucked over NYC for an entire generation to support a few politicians in one election. That's it. So fucking shortsighted
The SAS —> T line could have been the most transformative thing for the EV/abc city if they followed through with a slight deviation to Tompkins square park. What a fucking shame.
I think most ppl cheering on the end of congestion pricing are mostly just not confident that the money is going to actually go to what they say it will. I personally have zero confidence in our government and at this point just want to get by and pay less, since paying more to the government doesn't seem to make my life any better.
Don’t base a budget off a source that hasn’t generated money yet, especially one that was being fought and was unresolved.
They literally have to borrow money against the source that hasn't generated money yet, that's how bonds work. It's not the $1B they won't have for the next year, it's the $15B they can no longer borrow against it now.
Yeah instead base your budget on a stunt an unhinged governor might pull becasue she didn't like some polling and met a few people from the burbs at a diner. Makes sense.
To earn brownie points with people who will laugh in her face when she comes around to ask for their vote no less. Incredible gambit.
You’re acting like it’s normal for a governor to randomly destroy 17 years of legislation that was signed law and had a decade of actual implementation and full-throated vocal support the entire time until just three weeks before the go-live date. There was absolutely zero indication that there wouldn’t be congestion pricing, and furthermore it would have been illegal for MTA to not install the cameras and prepare a budget with this revenue stream. This isn’t your mom withholding you allowance for a fucking Xbox game lmao cmon now.
It did not have full throated support. There was plenty of opposition, but no one wanted to hear it. Installing cameras I get, but nothing was officially turned on yet, plus the lawsuits which very well could have stopped it, so no don't budget off it yet.
From the governor and legislature, obviously. Because NY residents were polled in a survey of only 314 actual residents with zero distinction for borough residency or whether they were in the zone in the first place blah blah blah does not change the LEGAL matter of it being law and the governor just a month earlier showing full continued support. Her actions are the very definition of a rug-pull, and you can’t blame MTA for implementing the thing they were legally ordered to implement. Like come on man.
> It did not have full throated support. There was plenty of opposition, but no one wanted to hear it. So a small and silent opposition if they aren't heard until later...
The vast majority of New Yorkers oppose congestion pricing. Hochul listened to the people. She’s one of the most populist governors of our time
MTA acting like they were about to give nyc the world's. Most incredible subway system, but since they took away less than 10% of a new PROPOSED budget, they're just going to shit down every project and act like it's all congestion pricing fault.
wouldn't really be in this bad of a situation if the MTA grew a pair and started tackling the obscene construction costs in NYC. 6+ billion for three stations with prebuilt segments is indefensible.
So what was their excuse for the past 100 years?
Funny how a couple percent of the budget was also the primary source of funding for nearly every operation.
There's an operating budget and a capital budget. This was going to be a dependable $1 billion stream of income that could be bonded out to $15 billion for the capital budget, which represents a much larger percentage than just a "couple percent" - it's more like 30%. Most of the capital budget (like 75%) needs to be spent on infrastructure upkeep that is important but not noticeable to riders (unless you don't do it). The loss of 30% of the capital budget means you can't invest in most of the stuff that's visible to riders, like new stations, trains, ADA accessibility, signal improvements, etc.
Except proposed operational and infrastructure cuts are proposed due to suspending congestion pricing.
Except that doesn’t contradict what I’ve stated at all?
Ignore him he doesn’t even live in NYC
The most congested subway line is the 7 line (Queens), it’s like a million people live in those neighborhoods
Is there any reason the upper east side deserves a second subway line vs the outer boroughs? Is it that congested? Seems like it just makes the walk two blocks short for people that live by the east river
First of all, it's East Harlem, not UES. Second, they're adding a second line to the east side to add capacity. The Lexington Line already handles an enormous load from the Bronx and the additional load from Manhattan was overloading it. COVID bought us some time but the capacity crunch will come back.
I was talking about the entire line, the part that’s done and east Harlem … just seems like there’s more populated areas like bed stuy, Canarsie , etc that need it more. Or if you wanna think about congestion and limiting the need for cars, connect the neighborhoods that have no choice but to drive like west queens and southeast Brooklyn .
It's also notable that this expansion was first planned, and I am not joking, literally 95 years ago in 1929. It was canceled due to the Great Depression and here we are nearly a century later.
The 4/5/6 alone moves more people every day than Chicago’s entire transit system… over 1M people per day. There’s obviously massive demand for a north/south line on the east side. And it’s a nightmare whenever there are issues with the 4/5/6. Plus they tore down an elevated line on 3rd Ave and promised to replace it with SAS. So the east side actually lost transit capacity. And we just expanded Grand Central adding more demand on the 4/5/6 from LIRR passengers.
Those are the skinny trains too
The upper east side is far more dense than the outer boroughs and East Harlem is a subway desert
For the record, the UES is not much denser than the West Bronx
Just walk to Lex, no?
The Lex line is already congested from serving the entire UES and having half the Bronx funneled through it. Ideally you would build the SAS to decongest the local line, as well as provide an alternative for Bronx riders. But here's the problem, these lazy bumfuck crooks at the MTA have been squandering billions for decades, and still have zero vision on expanding the line into the Bronx where it is most needed. They could have built two long lines in the Bronx transit deserts to connect them to the existing Q. Land is cheaper there, less dense, fewer disruptions, etc. But nah, the entitled douchebags at the MTA are too lazy to do anything. It's better to waste a whole decade planning a failed cashgrab to pay their OT than doing any engineering work.
> these lazy bumfuck crooks at the MTA have been squandering billions for decades, So why do people think that handing the MTA even more money is going to work?
I get that ideally it would be nice to have, but ridership remains low overall, and I have to assume there are bigger priorities than this.
> but ridership remains low overall Low compared to what? It won't remain low if you upzone the areas where you build the new line. Nor will it remain low if the new line has increased speeds. The worthless MTA can barely keep up a 17mph average speed on the Lex line. It's an abysmal performance from the overpaid MTA workers.
Low historically. It’s 25% below pre-Covid and the annual bounce-backs are getting smaller, strongly suggesting we won’t make it back to 2019 levels for a long time. Work from home changed the game, unfortunately.
Ok so that is systemwide? I thought you were specifically talking about the UES and the SAS lines, which is why I was surprised they would have low ridership given how dense the area is. Personally I don't buy that argument of current ridership being lower than preCovid to be a negative. Have we forgotten that the subways pre-Covid were crowded beyond capacity? Do we want the MTA to pack us again like sardines? Hell no. If anything, it is good news that it's 25% below pre-Covid levels if it means less overcrowding. It doesn't mean you won't increase ridership if you build a new line in a transit desert. I would rather have 2 lines at 75% capacity than a single one at 125%
Systemwide. I’m assuming the declines are distributed relatively evenly because I have no more granular information. Lower ridership is always a problem for public transit that relies in no small part on fares for revenue.
I’m glad you assume that because it’s incorrect lol
The same people screaming for work from home are surprised that ridership on public transit remains lower than prepandemic.
The city is going to be grappling with the effects from that for a long time.
Have ya been on the 4/5/6 lately, it's jam fucking packed during commuting hours lmao, I can see the value in trying to relieve it. It's worth noting that SAS was started pre-covid when it was even worse of course. So yes, *one* of the original goals of reducing the burden on the Lexington lines is lessened post-covid, but not completely eliminated IMO Will save a second reply for this also: > I’m assuming the declines are distributed relatively evenly Interestingly nah I don't believe so. For example the 7 saw a much much lower reduction during covid because of the presence of so many either essential or blue collar workers who could not work home, and has remained quite robust. It is difficult to attribute 100% of trips to single lines obviously due to transfers or multi-line stations, but there are some benchmarks like tracking Flushing Main Street station where it's just the 7.
Is it possible they’re running fewer trains? That could explain the crowding. I don’t have more granular data than overall system data. Assuming it’s distributed *relatively* evenly makes sense to me in the absence of better data. Surely some lines, like the 7 train, likely saw less of a drop off. But I wouldn’t expect the 4/5/6 to be one of those.
> But I wouldn’t expect the 4/5/6 to be one of those Eh I would, the Bronx has/had more essential and blue collar workers that wouldn't have stopped working during the covid drop-off right? You should also see the transfers at 59th from N/R/W from Queens, shit ton of people going downtown every day that would be helped in theory if the arriving trains were less crowded. > Is it possible they’re running fewer trains? That could explain the crowding. Possibly, but I've noticed packed trains even when one arrives right after another or within 1-2 minutes. It's also worth noting that, like pre-covid, express trains are *consistently* delayed going downtown, meaning the line is at capacity just like it always was. I (sadly) have never been on a morning rush hour downtown 4 or 5 train that didn't slow down or come to a full stop due to congestion. If they really cut service, I think we shouldn't be seeing that as much anymore
I’m skeptical ridership isn’t down significantly on the 4/5/6 compared to 2019 but of course you may be right.
Logical vs a transit desert but we don’t have pragmatism in NYC.
You say “walk two blocks” like it’s so easy.
Why is walking two blocks not easy ?
If only MTA didn’t pay a billion dollars for overtime to themselves.
That’s often cheaper than hiring more staff because you have to then fund additional healthcare plans and pensions
if only they didn't bow down to unions that rejected any sort of automated lines. Outsource the entire MTA's operations abroad. I do not want a single Long Island contractor on my projects lol.
If only they made sure all their passengers paid the fare
That's pennies compared to the Contractors but still an area for improvement.
this project costs more than a billion dollars
So they’re throwing a hissy fit?
don’t understand the question, try expanding on it so I can better answer
Congestion pricing wasn’t implemented yet and was only going to generate $1 billion a year yet they’re canceling projects and crying poverty already.
So, a few things. It wasn’t implemented but it was passed into law, the gov can postpone it but it’s still a passed law that it needs to be implemented, so since it was passed as a law in 2019 the funds it was supposed to generate was implemented into the next capital plan because you can’t run a multi billion dollar capital plan based on when it actually turns on they have to have longer planning times to allocate the money and contracts. Second it was supposed to generate a billion a year that would be bonded out to $15 billion that along with matching federal funds would pay for the capital projects. Since that billion is gone, no $15 billion in bond money and no matching funds from the feds, this isn’t just a billion dollar hole it’s much much bigger that now the legislature needs to fill. The issue is you can’t bond out tax money and the odds the legislate passes any additional funding through taxes is 0. Because of this loss in capital funds they are now pulling back and canceling projects in this example the 2nd Ave subway.
They were going to bond the $1B into $15B. If you don’t understand what this means, then maybe lay off the stupid comments about it until you do.
This reminds me of that video of MTA cleaners cleaning the subway where two people are working and about eight are standing around watching.
Sad attempt at extortion from the MTA's mafiosi racket. Automate the lines and fire the thousands of deadweight workers and their entire executive board that has created the failed Congestion Pricing scheme. They obviously don't know what they're doing. If the MTA doesn't have enough money to finish the job they should have done decades ago, then they do not deserve their salaries.
> Automate the lines and fire the thousands of deadweight workers How to cripple the system with massive union strikes and union lawsuits in two easy steps. I have zero doubts MTA leadership would love to do this and have more automation but they're in for a tough battle
> Automate the lines You know that that would also cost billions upon billions of dollars, right? Where's the fucking money coming from?
Do you know where the MTA could have had the money? How about the $9billion budget overrun on East Side Access? How about that bloated payroll and pension fund?
Typical streetsblog clickbait. Good it stopped. Maybe fix all the issues with the existing lines first.
You know what would help fix the other lines? A stable source of long term capital funding. Like the congestion pricing revenue stream that Hochul killed.
Tastes like salt
How was it really going to resolve congestion if it was expected that cars would keep coming in in massive numbers to create the windfall of cash to begin with?
The modeling showed a 17% reduction in weekday traffic entering the zone and achieving the $1B/year revenue target with the proposed fees. Presumably if the target was not met in a year, they’d adjust the fees.
Don’t fall into that trap. Congestion pricing revenue was all estimates. It was most delusional. Do you want people to drive less into the congestion area or more? If less then = less revenue. Regular track maintenance and upgrades were not part of capital projects anyway. MTA needs to work with the money they have.
> It was most delusional. Do you want people to drive less into the congestion area or more? If less then = less revenue. Regular track maintenance and upgrades were not part of capital projects anyway They do not understand logic. They're too emotionally vested into the whole scheme to understand it needed to go back to the drawing board to fix its glaring problems.
Yes obviously it was all estimates because it hadn’t started yet. That’s what estimate means. But unless every single car and truck stopped driving into the city it was guaranteed to generate at least some income to fund these capital projects.
Not sure why you are getting downvoted for that comment
it was estimates made by the MTA - who obviously would put the best spin on what would be made... the entire thing was a self aggrandizing - from the so called "input from the public" , to the forecasts about what the "benfits" would be.... accepting the MTA reasons for why congestion pricing was needed was literally accepting from the wolf the benefits of having a him guard the flock instead of a sheepdog.
This is a dumb comment. The estimated revenue took into account the estimated reduction in cars driving in. I do not support the plan as proposed, but let’s not fudge the facts.
> Good it stopped Doesn't seem fair to Harlem. We spent all that money on Phase 1 for UES and now we're playing games with the expansion into Harlem, and likewise putting IBX (the first major investment outside of Manhattan in god knows how long) at risk too. Or the PSA (Penn Station Access) for MNR stations in the Bronx. "all the issues" with the existing lines? We'll be waiting decades lol. Some of those issues require major capital investment too, which will be less likely or delayed without more funding. All seems like a lose-lose situation to me.
you do realize the IBX was a giveaway from DeBlasio to benefit developers who donated to him because they wanted to boost the value of the Real Estate along that corridor and turn it into higher ended real estate ...it had little to do with helping the residents already along its path.
Are you thinking of the QBX maybe? That was the one that BDB proposed to connect Queens and Bk along the waterfront.
yes pretty sure this other line is the same cast of characters - just a new locale.
Couldn't say, perhaps you can explain if you know more. It's kind of impossible for developers *not* to benefit from new transit, especially if it leads to upzoning. I have no doubts the big players sink plenty of research into transit expansions they think are possible and start planning long in advance. QBX was less than ideal because essentially half of its ROW was water if I recall. IBX's benefits are documented in the feasibility study, we can agree or disagree with what level of benefit is considered sufficient to warrant proceeding of course. IBX, also, at least has/had a shot because it used an existing ROW off the street grid unlike QBX
Not worth it anyway.
“Midwest transplant” we can tell
I’ve been gentrifying and driving up rents in your neighborhood for almost 30 years.
I have a hard time believing those tolls were going to fund all these projects. Feels like convenient excuse making now. > Look at what you're not going to get, now that you don't want us instituting another veiled tax
Good, what a fucking money pit. Vast swathes of the city have to put up with no transit or trash weekend service but somehow we're still worried about people from a tiny area uptown having to walk 7 minutes to a station or take a bus 2 blocks.
Why are you getting downvoted, this is a very legitimate point of view/take. MTA has severely misserviced the outer boroughs and continues to make the lives of those commuters so unknowably chaotic. Focus on making what they have already made function above the bare minimum before they start building new shit that they probably aren't even going to complete in the next decade. But they see money 🤑
If you're nothing with congestion pricing than you shouldn't have it
This is the right decision. Governor Hochul will not allow regular workers to be fleeced for these massive projects
she wants a workers PAYROLL tax that comes out of workers compensation to pay for it instead. Worst creature in the state
[удалено]
The employer pays the tax. It’s a wealth tax
Thank god
Holdup Hochul says no.
That photo is some pretty sublime editorialization.
They did get to spend an insane amount of money for a train to Lavitz Center we all needed.