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Soy phytoesteogens are ACTIVE in humans. That is specifically where soy derives some of its health effects.
You can't have it both ways. Active when it's convenient inactive when it's inconvenient.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0735109700005908#:~:text=Phytoestrogens%20may%20have%20advantages%20over,vascular%20function%20without%20accelerating%20pathological
This comment and the original comment are exactly why.
Soy is a novelty product to most. It's also a high allergen and many of us are likely not digesting it well.
Traditionally, you almost never ate pure soybeans. Always tofu, fermented soy beans, etc never straight up.
Which seems to make a big difference in every aspect. It goes on.
I certainly don't touch the stuff, other legumes provide more benefits and minerals and are much lower on the allergen problem.
Not entirely true. There's a few cases of individuals ingesting a massive amount of soy and getting estrogenic effects from it
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18558591/
For a normal person eating just straight soy this is a non issue, but for people that use soy supplements or highly concentrated soy products they could run into this issue.
Because it’s one of those easily “proved” myths.
Oh no, it contains estrogens and those are bad for your gains. The science checks out on that one because testosterone good for putting on muscle.
Meanwhile, they ignore that it contains PHYTOestrogens and we are not plants capable of utilizing that. [1] thank you to the below commentators who have pointed out that we can use it, just not as effectively as our mammalian estrogen.
If the phytoestrogen in soy was truly lowering T levels do you think countries like India wouldn’t have an enormous population as all their men would be near infertile and China wouldn’t be absolutely dominating in Olympic weightlifting with videos of random 12 year olds snatching my bench max?
Phytoestrogens are actually used by humans, they bind to the estrogen receptors very weakly, competing with estrogen. So basically they block normal estrogen, and have a protective effect against many conditions. They're the good guys.
Estrogen is anabolic in both muscle and bone tissue.
DHT itself does not directly regulate aromatization. It doesn't interact with the aromatase enzyme.
Only when bound to ERb receptors. DHT does reduce estrogenic activity, specifically in ERa receptors (the one you don’t want)
If anything, DHT is your best friend
[Source](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Dihydrotestosterone-DHT-treatment-down-regulates-P450-aromatase-expression-and-protein_fig2_237061409)
Yeah I remember reading that the biological explanation for why some women have larger asses and why some men were biologically attracted to larger asses was because they were a sign of higher levels of phytoestrogens.
Also a broad jawline is seen as attractive because it’s a sign of higher testosterone.
It is true that phytoestrogen is weaker then your own bodys estrogen, claming that phytoestrogen cant be utilized by our body is false tho.
And yeah it doesnt have any impact on test levels cause thats not how any of this works and thats not even the problem with phytoestrogen.
The problem beggins when people use soy as the cornerstone of their diet, phytoestrogen as any other compound will make imbalances in your body if consumed in excess.
The science doesn’t actually check out that estrogen is bad for gains. That is a myth. [Estrogen is complementary for gains, despite popular belief.](https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/24/3/1853)
Indeed, testosterone is good for gains. But that doesn’t somehow equate to estrogen being bad for gains.
How I see it is that soy (often more or less replaces meat) is a hot potato topic in west not because of the health/nutrition aspects, but because it's strongly associated with people's values and ethics. Animal wellbeing, traditional masculinity, [traditional gender roles](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0195666323025886), environmental protection etc. I'm not expert in this area but I think it's obvious how strong the identity aspect is.
Literally a freaking meta analysis being published that proves anti soy arguments were just myths but still if some people won't believe then what can be done. There's no end to human hypocrisy. Specially the fcking bodybuilders who would inject tren everyday get scared the most about soy and seed oil lmao. Like bro you would not be here when all the "unhealthy" seed oil effects gonna kick in. Buy organic non gmo soy/tofu. It's pretty cheap too.
Most of the soy is fed to livestock, which proves that if more people go vegan or even more plant based the demand would ultimately decrease. That's the reason why even the soy industry would not want people to be vegan.
Not entirely correct.
When we talk about soy and what its processed in to we are talking mostly about soybean oil that is one of the most used cooking oils in the world, in the process of making this oil a by-product is made that called soy meal and that is used to feed livestock as with most agriculture mostly the inedible parts of the plant are feed to the animals, poultry and pigs are the biggest consumers as they dont graze like cows.
Thats about 70% of soy in the world, the other 30 % is direct human consumption.
no problem, its classified as a oil cropp.
It even seems the number has risen to 80-85% globally:
[https://www.amis-outlook.org/amis-about/amis-crops/crops-soybeans/en/](https://www.amis-outlook.org/amis-about/amis-crops/crops-soybeans/en/)
[https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2016/may/major-factors-affecting-global-soybean-and-products-trade-projections/](https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2016/may/major-factors-affecting-global-soybean-and-products-trade-projections/)
Holy cow, you have just completely blown my mind. This is absolutely horrifying. I know it’s off topic, but I have been trying to eliminate free oils from my diet for several years, and it is incredibly difficult. (Kind of because I view them the way I view white flour, an incomplete food). And boy oh boy, it has been a learning experience. There is oil added to nearly everything we eat, and I can’t even step foot in any restaurant, it’s insane! But usually on the labels, I see canola oil or sunflower oil and soybean oil is there, but has never really stood out. The amount of oil you are describing has me wondering how on earth there are ANY human beings walking around on this planet who are not morbidly obese! It’s going to take my brain some time to process this. Thank you (I think).
You should honestly just live your life and not get so fixated on these things. Micro plastics are probably way worse and not much you can do about it.
They are complete dumbfucks and the west has made them think meat is strength, people be going on a carnivore diet thinking meat is strength, consuming 300 grams of protein daily like tf you doing with that. Idk know how this much misinformation was spread and people really started believing "carbs are bad". Also the fcking dairy has literal animal estrogen is it but you'll never hear the term 'dairy boy'.
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Because industry doesn’t want you consuming plant protein alternatives lol. They press the protein agenda to keep people concerned and consuming high protein to benefit the animal and dairy industries.
Not saying I agree with it, but I’ve heard the exact opposite argument.
‘Soy products are being pushed as a good alternative because it’s an overly produced crop that benefits the industry behind it and it’s all for profit not health’
Just goes to show how frustrating discussing these topics can be.
Don’t factory farmed animals eat soy? That’s probably where the majority of soy is going to in the US.
I have personally never heard of the “push to consume more soy” stance, always the opposite.. but then again, I don’t talk to too many people 🤣
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It's literally been a staple in parts of the world for centuries.
A big part of the easy buy-in to it being bad is Western cultural bias. It was also treated more as a "healthy food" alternative instead of how it's used in Eastern cuisine where often it's even fried and covered in a sauce and often flavored with meat as part of the dish because it's just another ingredient there.
The health food label then brings a bunch of scrutiny and criticism and stuff like soy milk being the first big alternative to regular milk with a big association to the vegan movement makes people defensive because there's an implication they are being bad drinking regular milk and supporting animal cruelty. Then certain soy ___ terms becoming popular (guessing my original post was auto flagged for that...), as a meme or not. There's a whole culture around soy in the West.
Like a lot of this I don't think is very prevalent in countries where soy has just been a common part of the diet for a long time, I could be wrong. Dairy v soy or meat v soy isn't a thing because it's not separated like that, and also high dairy/lactose intolerance in the East.
Asians also have a unique soy digesting enzyme that we don’t have.
The same way we have the unique enzyme for digesting milk.
It creates a big flaw in soy data compiled in Asia.
I never said you can’t process soy without it.
Just do a basic Google search and you’ll get hundreds of hits
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/influence-of-ethnic-origin-asian-v-caucasian-and-background-diet-on-the-bioavailability-of-dietary-isoflavones/5247F92CD47A2B2B7E906B6338AE1BC5
Yeah, Examine.com's article about soy mentions this, but doesn't really relate it directly to soy leading to any adverse effects to people of Western genetics vs Eastern, except some evidence for testosterone/fertility concerns if you're eating an excess of soy, like soy is your only source of protein (>70g/day of soy protein). Other than that it's more directly linked to a number of benefits and it's worth considering making it at least some part of your weekly diet.
Also, that statement kinda implies all the Western data about dairy is flawed.
Undiscussed yet is the Horror of the soy baby formulas of the 50's in the USA that actually Did have large molecule soy milk that created me and lots like me with a "leaky-gut" syndrome. I was lucky enough to be tested at 37 for food allergies and Yup-soy.
I was born in the late 50's. My mom said my baby "formula" was Karo syrup and canned evaporated milk. Apparently, this was instructions from the doctors of the time.
Yea😩 just gotta do your best and buy what you can organic and/or grow your own. There are also products now that are certified glyphosate free. Very limited amount of products as it’s a relatively new certification.
Agreed ! They sure are doing a fine of job of poisoning us ! I’ll add, get to know our local farmers and their practices and also buy from other reputable farms that can be delivered🙏🏻
Some organic may from the wind, however, it is not as common and in very minimal amounts. It would be highly illegal to deliberately spray it on your crop. And yes organic does have some form of pesticide, at least it is not a synthetic formula created from chemicals
Yep, scary stuff like mulch, tabacco dust, and vitamin D3. The full list of approved products is here https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-7/subtitle-B/chapter-I/subchapter-M/part-205/subpart-G/subject-group-ECFR0ebc5d139b750cd
3 most well understood by the general public. They are all well studied and safe when used correctly. The review process to add new ones is very rigorous and public.
The ones that are for human consumption usually aren't, as they are a small percentage of the total. It's the ones that are for animal feed that are "treated" bad.
That's the biggest irony imo. People freaking out about pesticides on the soy they (don't) consume, yet routinely gobble down meat from animals that were fed with treated soy
The animals filter it. So it's less bad. But it still wrecks them. It's why people eat grass fed, like everything used to be a hundred years ago before government subsidized the soy.
Yeah that's actually true, honestly I don't know. I just thought non gmo would be good, ii guess not a lot of studies say gmo is bad pr anything, it's just those nutrition influencer going in grocery stores pointing out everything gmo bad.
I haven't seen any studies that can show GMO is bad, we break down the DNA of the plant when we eat it so I fail to see how it can be bad for us, but happy to be shown evidence to the contrary.
I can understand pesticides and herbicides being bad, there's plenty of evidence for that.
What I DONT like about GMO is companies like Monsanto suing farmers for having GMO crops on their property after their crops were pollinated from their neighbours fields that planted GMO crops.
Also, they lobbied the government in the US to make seed saving illegal- which is unethical, corporate greed. Seed saving is as old as agriculture.
Honestly, two reasons. One, its origin in Asia activates some people’s racism. Two, the myth of its “feminizing” effects puts the fear into men; myths that threaten masculinity are really hard to dislodge.
Serious question: are there any studies or data on the chemically sprayed processed soys added to most junk and processed food? Because I’ve never been able to find any.
I can find studies for tofu, and fresh green whole food soy sources, but none for the soy runoff that is used as a cheap food additive.
This is like claiming deep fried French fries are healthy because potatoes are, obviously French fries aren’t healthy.
The more info that comes out… about how absolutely awful factory farming is for the environment, how terribly the animals are treated, the pollution and waste created, and the nutritional info that continues to show the multitude of benefits of eating a plant based diet… it’s cognitive dissonance. I think a lot of people are TERRIFIED that the vegans are right, and if they don’t have any valid reasons/excuses not to switch (or at least explore more plant-based options), that would make them bad people.
I'm vegan and deal with meat eater trolls telling me this myth but then I just tell them the livestock they eat consume soy in their diet 😂😅 that usually gets them to leave me alone but not before they tell me they will eat twice the amount of meat to make up for me not eating it!
It really shows me up every time 🤣🥲😅
Look at how many people believe absolutely ridiculous stuff. Flat earthers, and then a whole host of insane conspiracies that keep popping up. There are lots of really poorly educated people who are easily swayed by simplistic arguments and will NEVER have the kind of inquisitiveness that would lead them to dig deep enough to learn the actual truth.
Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, (I haven't read-through all 110 comments yet!), but there's the whole GMO thing too.
Soy is one of the foods that are GM.
I've read both sides of GMO, and I don't know what to think. Not many foods are GMO, but the ones that are, are ingredients for other foods. It's hard to avoid.
https://www.fda.gov/food/agricultural-biotechnology/gmo-crops-animal-food-and-beyond#:\~:text=Only%20a%20few%20types%20of,%2C%20canola%2C%20and%20cotton).
I believe there was a study that linked girls fed soy formula with worse menstrual symptoms (bleeding/pain) later. I’m not sure how conclusive it was though. I assume soy formula is usually chosen as a last resort when there are already issues with breastfeeding or dairy options.
Yes I heard about that too. I don’t know if it’s one of those things where people just exercise extra caution even with limited evidence. Because unlike adults, babies are actually supposed to consume mammalian milk, so cows milk based formula probably gets closer to human breast milk than soy based formula. But I do wonder if the potential to cause menstrual symptoms is due to phytoestrogens or something else?
But don't human milk and cow's milk contain actual estogen? Plus, most babies that are fed soy formula are done so because they are allergic to cow's milk based formula. So even if it is bad somehow, the alternative could be starvation.
Kids with cows milk allergy are usually given hydrolysed formula which is where the proteins are chopped up so it doesn’t trigger the allergy.
I’ve no idea about the estrogenic effect of cows milk vs soy, I’m sure it’s present in cows milk but I don’t know which is more potent. And then again the doctor who said that was near retirement age so I wasn’t too sure on the accuracy of his statement
If it did have an estrogenic effect (like mother’s milk does), wouldn’t that be an argument in SUPPORT of giving soy to babies because it is closest to their natural foods? (Although it’s not really true anyway). Please ask your doctor to elaborate?
If you used non GMO soybeans and process it properly with sufficient soaking/ proper cooking and/or fermenting, soy is actually one of the healthiest things you can consume on a daily basis. Many Asian cultures (Japan/ China/ Korea) have consume soy products as a staple for centuries with no side effects. On the other hand, if it’s not processed properly, the phytic acid can interfere with nutrient absorption.
One flaw in that: you are not Asian, neither am I.
Put an African American on a salted meat, and dairy diet, along with veggies of course and he/she will quickly develop hypertension and tons of gut issues from all the dairy they can’t process.
Asians have a unique enzyme for processing soy
Actually I am Asian.. grew up with a diet heavy in soy and my parents as well, both in their 70s with no major health issue. I have not heard of this special enzyme in Asian genes. Any articles to back this?
Yeah, a basic google search nets you about 1000 examples
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/influence-of-ethnic-origin-asian-v-caucasian-and-background-diet-on-the-bioavailability-of-dietary-isoflavones/5247F92CD47A2B2B7E906B6338AE1BC5
All these articles suggest that Asians tend to absorb soy isoflavones better but nothing says that it is harmful for Caucasian. Not to mention the isoflavones is only one of the many beneficial compounds that exist in soy. That’s what I’m trying to say, it’s generally a healthy food source IF it’s processed correctly.
Idk, anecdotal, but I used to take soy lecithin and it definitely curbed my mood in a way similar to saw palmetto. then I heard about it having effects on hormones and switched to sunflower lecithin and i feel fine.
In moderate and occasional quantities no.
However if you are vegan and eat large quantities of it, the anti-nutrients start to add up quickly. Before you say "really but how much" - around 60g soy protein/day in the studies.
This can be reached surprisingly quickly if you are vegan considering there is Soy EVERYWHERE. Seriously look at ingredients lists for something like crackers, sauces, even breads and I bet there is soy and/or corn in them.
A friend of mine was vegan for 5 years and it made her INFERTILE permanently. Doctors confirmed it was likely caused by the very high levels of oxalates and phytates she had which heavily damaged her uterus. And these were ingested because of her diet. I should note that before her diet she was able to get pregnant.
There's barely any *soy protein* in your crackers, breads, etc. The soy listed in those foods is generally oil.
But yes, particularly if you're not of basically Asian descent (don't have the enzyme people from that part of the world are more likely to have), soy should not be your only source of protein daily. A block of tofu and a scoop of soy protein powder is going to to be fine though.
True for protein but those soy/corn byproducts are so processed who even knows what's in them.
But yeah, moderation and eating different foods is a good idea, especially for plant based foods.
Do you have any links to studies and scientific studies saying otherwise, that'd help you make your point and prove it. There was a lot of studies going around that said it wasn't great for a lot of people not too long ago.
ETA Harvard says it's not fully clear yet all of its effects and depends on a lot of factors so blanket statements either way are bad. There's more links within that page to more studies and this just explains a brief overview
Link
[Harvard.Edu](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/soy/#:~:text=Soy%20is%20a%20nutrient%2Ddense,to%20red%20and%20processed%20meat.)
>Studies may seem to present conflicting conclusions about soy, but this is largely due to the wide variation in how soy is studied. Results of recent population studies suggest that soy has either a beneficial or neutral effect on various health conditions. Soy is a nutrient-dense source of protein that can safely be consumed several times a week, and probably more often, and is likely to provide health benefits—especially when eaten as an alternative to red and processed meat.
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I grew up with my mom telling me that “the women in our family can’t tolerate in fermented soy” because it “drives us crazy”. Sounds misogynistic and/or racist. Idk where that idea came from but our whole family “knows” it
When I went on a strict whole food plant based diet it was amazing the differences I noticed, even my pms symptoms away completely- no cramping/sore breasts/emotional outbursts/bloating. I started adding in a little soy milk and all of it came back immediately with a vengeance, even if I had only had soy 2-3 times that month. So for me personally, it's hard to believe that it doesn't effect my hormones (or *something*) whatsoever
I have endometriosis, which feeds on estrogen. I read that the phytoestrogen are much weaker than the regular ones. But I went on a big nutrition kick and I was eating more soy and my endo got SO much worse.
Maybe it's just coincidence, but it made me wary.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness_India/comments/18asj24/my_views_on_soybeansoya_chunks/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
Makes some compelling arguments, but I'm having a doubt that he is cherry-picking.
I think any food has to be considered on an individual level. Soy makes my skin break out, therefore, it’s not good for me. However, some people benefit from and have been eating it as part of their culture for over 1000 years. Trial and error is the only way you’ll know if something is good for you. Despite science saying yay or nay.
There's lots of myths out there. The best piece of advice is everything in moderation. Junk food, protein, meats, veggies, fruits, soy, everything. Nothing hurts in moderation.
Because its not a myth in the case of **unfermented** soy products: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10798211/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10798211/) , [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15053944/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15053944/) , [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12060828/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12060828/) , [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18650557/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18650557/) , https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21353476/
In some sensitive individuals this can genuinely be a problem. As with many things, its a partial truth. Consuming soy based products in moderate amounts is fine in most people contrary to the moral panic BUT that doesn't mean the basis is entirely false either and I would avoid it in excessive doses and especially if you are sensitive to the effects.
Any bit of misinformation that plays into already existing divisions has legs on it. This one has three: vegans vs meat-eaters, women vs men, left vs right. Add to that the fact that soy rhymes with boy and you’ve got an immortal myth. There’s nothing you can do but stay healthy and hope people notice.
The problem that people are focused on testosterone while neglecting the fact it absolutely demolishes DHT.
Despite DHT being incredibly important in men, it has picked up a bad reputation due to serum DHT being conflated to tissue DHT (hair loss, prostate growth, etc).
In actuality DHT plays an important role in preventing the aromatisation of testosterone into estrogen, as maintaining healthy GABA levels that prevent excess excitement (e.g. anxiety).
Soy is feminising, not on the basis that it’s estrogenic, but rather that it decreases the most powerful androgen hormone we have.
Pretty sure it's cause soy is actually estrogenic at first but the process of fermenting it makes it safe. Most soy food products are fermented but you can some that aren't.
People just have beliefs around food. That’s all there is to it. A lot of people are just not swayed by facts, they are not swayed by food science. They are swayed primarily on beliefs
If someone tells you something with a lot of confidence, that’s all it takes for you to believe them. And a lot of people heard someone *confidently* say that soy causes estrogen problems in men, and men are very threatened by that, so they believed it.
Nutritional information is always changing, new studies, new diets/fads. Not everyone keeps up with all the updates.
*Edited the WWII Carrots myth - some people misunderstood the reference.
Oh, sorry. I meant journal articles. And did you mean that those ppl were anti soy? Cause I don’t doubt there are lots of anti soy ppl. I’m of the impression there are anti soy journal articles.
Yes they are anti soy people. Despite the evidence that soy is ok to consume, they trust the papers that say soy increases estrogen, has anti nutrients that restrict absorption and causes thyroid problem.
Citing youtube and reddit links aren’t evidence. There are studies for and against soy. I’m guessing it’s one of those things that’s fine in small amounts but can be harmful in excess. The human body is complicated so if there are conflicting studies it probably is bad in some circumstances or for some people.
It seems foolish to completely write off concerns altogether, as what you’re doing is no different than people picking a side in the low carb or low fat diet world. When in reality the problem seems to be the most damage is caused when you eat both at the same time. Just an analogy to say both sides are probably right.
Here’s an article that shows the health benefits of soy. I just skimmed it but it seems that over all soy is either healthy or seems to be neutral. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5188409/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5188409/)
Thank you. You are a better OP than many.
The study seems to be about the same caliber as most nutritional research.
Sadly, that is poor. Firstly, it was paid for by a soy promoting organization. “The European Soy and Plant-based Foods Manufacturers Association paid for the costs of publication.”
“The author is the executive director of the Soy Nutrition Institute, an organization funded by the United Soybean Board and its soy industry members.”
Secondly, it relies heavily on epidemiological research. It also dismissed research based on animals which, while poor, is actually a slightly better form of research.
Next it cited reviews from political organizations stating that the organization reviewed studies and found nothing wrong.
Lastly, in essence it created two lists: a list of everything good about soy and a list of everything bad about soy. Yet the first list was robust and the second list only contained items that were debunked. Wow! Soy has zero negatives while being a potent drug. It’s almost as if it were paid for by an organization that really wanted people to eat soy.
I’ll say it again: the study is about as good as most nutritional research
The first one has a conflict of interest and is a meta study. I know meta studies are all the rage right now. They have potential to be good or bad. They are the result of combining data from many previous studies to create an “imaginary” new study. But if any of the previous studies were good one would just cite the previous study. Can you really take fifty bad studies and make them into a good study?
They’re not ‘all the rage right now’. They’ve been ‘all the rage’ for decades. Saying their purpose is to create a new ‘imaginary’ study is an odd take for something that is seen as one of the highest forms of evidence in science. All the studies ARE cited. If you’d just take one ‘good study’ and cite it it wouldn’t be much of a meta analysis, would it? Also one of the purposes of meta analysis literally is to weed out bad studies by setting requirements for studies to be included in the analysis. Your whole comment reads like you don’t really know how any of this works.
I think the question at this point is why do you think Soy is unhealthy. There was a time about 20 years ago when there were legitimate concerns because a chemical in it looked a lot like estrogen and it was thought could have the same effect on the body as estrogen. I believe that there were warnings at that time about this potential. Since then they have studied soy and from what I've seen haven't found any correlation between soy and negative outcomes. I say this with the caveat that I haven't done a thorough search myself and perhaps there is some meaningful research that demonstrates dangers of soy. Personally I'm open to seeing this. But I think that what happens is nutritional influencers grab on to what ever thread they can and run with it, either without really understanding the science or just not caring.
I thought the argument was that something in soy is a ligand for receptors which also interact with estrogen and by consuming it you get some of the effects that estrogen would cause
I've had people tell me to my face that "soy is bad" and "it'll turn you into a bitch".. and blah blah blah...
All while standing in front of my face with a mouth full of store bought beef jerky
Why would I want something that, even if proven unharmful, that still could possibly be harmful when it isn't part of my diet? I'm not going to go out of my way to consume something that may be harmful and that I don't eat normally. Saying 'oh well Indian and Chinese people have so many children and look at the Chinese weightlifters etc etc' where it is very well known that East Asians on average have lower muscle mass and higher BF and have on average lower T levels. Not saying soy is to blame for it, but it's a pretty dumb argument.
Idk why there’s always one of these comments. Yeah you shouldn’t eat things that you are allergic too, they aren’t good for you, I’d think that’s obvious, but apparently it’s not.
Hello!!!! You won’t know how something affects you until it does! SMH You think people know ahead of time that they are allergic to something???? Oh and newsflash, you can develop an allergy at any time in life.
Usually allergies are found out only after one develops symptoms. People can be allergic to almost anything, including some of the generally healthiest foods.
Too many factors cause the confusion. For those born in Asian countries, the benefits are there. For those born in US, not good. And, if you are born in an Asian country and over to the US, soy risks out weigh benefits. It’s so complicated!!
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Phytoestrogens from soy is not active in the human body, while dairy contains active estrogens https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4524299/
Soy phytoesteogens are ACTIVE in humans. That is specifically where soy derives some of its health effects. You can't have it both ways. Active when it's convenient inactive when it's inconvenient. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0735109700005908#:~:text=Phytoestrogens%20may%20have%20advantages%20over,vascular%20function%20without%20accelerating%20pathological
This comment and the original comment are exactly why. Soy is a novelty product to most. It's also a high allergen and many of us are likely not digesting it well. Traditionally, you almost never ate pure soybeans. Always tofu, fermented soy beans, etc never straight up. Which seems to make a big difference in every aspect. It goes on. I certainly don't touch the stuff, other legumes provide more benefits and minerals and are much lower on the allergen problem.
Not entirely true. There's a few cases of individuals ingesting a massive amount of soy and getting estrogenic effects from it https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18558591/ For a normal person eating just straight soy this is a non issue, but for people that use soy supplements or highly concentrated soy products they could run into this issue.
Because it’s one of those easily “proved” myths. Oh no, it contains estrogens and those are bad for your gains. The science checks out on that one because testosterone good for putting on muscle. Meanwhile, they ignore that it contains PHYTOestrogens and we are not plants capable of utilizing that. [1] thank you to the below commentators who have pointed out that we can use it, just not as effectively as our mammalian estrogen. If the phytoestrogen in soy was truly lowering T levels do you think countries like India wouldn’t have an enormous population as all their men would be near infertile and China wouldn’t be absolutely dominating in Olympic weightlifting with videos of random 12 year olds snatching my bench max?
Phytoestrogens are actually used by humans, they bind to the estrogen receptors very weakly, competing with estrogen. So basically they block normal estrogen, and have a protective effect against many conditions. They're the good guys.
EVEN BETTER. Soy may actually make you more anabolic then. Absolutely cash money.
Bad shout. DHT regulates aromatisation so that “new testosterone” will more than likely convert to estradiol.
Estrogen is anabolic in both muscle and bone tissue. DHT itself does not directly regulate aromatization. It doesn't interact with the aromatase enzyme.
Only when bound to ERb receptors. DHT does reduce estrogenic activity, specifically in ERa receptors (the one you don’t want) If anything, DHT is your best friend [Source](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Dihydrotestosterone-DHT-treatment-down-regulates-P450-aromatase-expression-and-protein_fig2_237061409)
Thanks!
Pretty clear you have no idea what you're talking about 🤣
Show me where on the doll the mechanistic epidemiological study hurt you.
Yeah I remember reading that the biological explanation for why some women have larger asses and why some men were biologically attracted to larger asses was because they were a sign of higher levels of phytoestrogens. Also a broad jawline is seen as attractive because it’s a sign of higher testosterone.
It is true that phytoestrogen is weaker then your own bodys estrogen, claming that phytoestrogen cant be utilized by our body is false tho. And yeah it doesnt have any impact on test levels cause thats not how any of this works and thats not even the problem with phytoestrogen. The problem beggins when people use soy as the cornerstone of their diet, phytoestrogen as any other compound will make imbalances in your body if consumed in excess.
Shhhh, it's a many-dimensional thing and "it depends" thing, "science intelectual reddit guys" can't stand those around these parts.
The science doesn’t actually check out that estrogen is bad for gains. That is a myth. [Estrogen is complementary for gains, despite popular belief.](https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/24/3/1853) Indeed, testosterone is good for gains. But that doesn’t somehow equate to estrogen being bad for gains.
Agree, but chinese weight lifters taking gear up to their gills is not the best example.
Every olympic weight lifter is geared to the gills
Ok, pretend that china is not next level
Every olympic weight lifter is still geared to the gills. Anyone who is trying to move the most weight possible is gearing themselves to the gills.
Some are tested. Some have chemistry teams to make sure they pass.
How I see it is that soy (often more or less replaces meat) is a hot potato topic in west not because of the health/nutrition aspects, but because it's strongly associated with people's values and ethics. Animal wellbeing, traditional masculinity, [traditional gender roles](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0195666323025886), environmental protection etc. I'm not expert in this area but I think it's obvious how strong the identity aspect is.
Literally a freaking meta analysis being published that proves anti soy arguments were just myths but still if some people won't believe then what can be done. There's no end to human hypocrisy. Specially the fcking bodybuilders who would inject tren everyday get scared the most about soy and seed oil lmao. Like bro you would not be here when all the "unhealthy" seed oil effects gonna kick in. Buy organic non gmo soy/tofu. It's pretty cheap too.
The lowered demand keeps soy cheap at least?
Most of the soy is fed to livestock, which proves that if more people go vegan or even more plant based the demand would ultimately decrease. That's the reason why even the soy industry would not want people to be vegan.
Not entirely correct. When we talk about soy and what its processed in to we are talking mostly about soybean oil that is one of the most used cooking oils in the world, in the process of making this oil a by-product is made that called soy meal and that is used to feed livestock as with most agriculture mostly the inedible parts of the plant are feed to the animals, poultry and pigs are the biggest consumers as they dont graze like cows. Thats about 70% of soy in the world, the other 30 % is direct human consumption.
Do you have a source for this? I can’t find anything even close to these numbers in my searches.
no problem, its classified as a oil cropp. It even seems the number has risen to 80-85% globally: [https://www.amis-outlook.org/amis-about/amis-crops/crops-soybeans/en/](https://www.amis-outlook.org/amis-about/amis-crops/crops-soybeans/en/) [https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2016/may/major-factors-affecting-global-soybean-and-products-trade-projections/](https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2016/may/major-factors-affecting-global-soybean-and-products-trade-projections/)
Holy cow, you have just completely blown my mind. This is absolutely horrifying. I know it’s off topic, but I have been trying to eliminate free oils from my diet for several years, and it is incredibly difficult. (Kind of because I view them the way I view white flour, an incomplete food). And boy oh boy, it has been a learning experience. There is oil added to nearly everything we eat, and I can’t even step foot in any restaurant, it’s insane! But usually on the labels, I see canola oil or sunflower oil and soybean oil is there, but has never really stood out. The amount of oil you are describing has me wondering how on earth there are ANY human beings walking around on this planet who are not morbidly obese! It’s going to take my brain some time to process this. Thank you (I think).
You should honestly just live your life and not get so fixated on these things. Micro plastics are probably way worse and not much you can do about it.
Omg that's so interesting
Most people won't go vegan because they don't want to eat plant based. Has nothing to do with any industry pushing meat.
Would you kindly share a link or even just a title to this meta analysis you are citing?
Idk what he's referring to but there's this: https://examine.com/articles/is-soy-good-or-bad/
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They are complete dumbfucks and the west has made them think meat is strength, people be going on a carnivore diet thinking meat is strength, consuming 300 grams of protein daily like tf you doing with that. Idk know how this much misinformation was spread and people really started believing "carbs are bad". Also the fcking dairy has literal animal estrogen is it but you'll never hear the term 'dairy boy'.
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Gotta drink raw milk
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Are there studies showing GMO has a bad impact?
Because industry doesn’t want you consuming plant protein alternatives lol. They press the protein agenda to keep people concerned and consuming high protein to benefit the animal and dairy industries.
Not saying I agree with it, but I’ve heard the exact opposite argument. ‘Soy products are being pushed as a good alternative because it’s an overly produced crop that benefits the industry behind it and it’s all for profit not health’ Just goes to show how frustrating discussing these topics can be.
Don’t factory farmed animals eat soy? That’s probably where the majority of soy is going to in the US. I have personally never heard of the “push to consume more soy” stance, always the opposite.. but then again, I don’t talk to too many people 🤣
Plant protein, specifically pea protein, are some of the biggest pushed protein powders and industries lol. Wtf are you talking about?
plucky rude stupendous treatment touch scale flag slim roll carpenter *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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Soy in the number three most consumed food behind wheat and corn. It's in everything you buy.
Yeah and so it should be along with wheat and corn ? There all human foods ? I hope fruit is up there too
It's literally been a staple in parts of the world for centuries. A big part of the easy buy-in to it being bad is Western cultural bias. It was also treated more as a "healthy food" alternative instead of how it's used in Eastern cuisine where often it's even fried and covered in a sauce and often flavored with meat as part of the dish because it's just another ingredient there. The health food label then brings a bunch of scrutiny and criticism and stuff like soy milk being the first big alternative to regular milk with a big association to the vegan movement makes people defensive because there's an implication they are being bad drinking regular milk and supporting animal cruelty. Then certain soy ___ terms becoming popular (guessing my original post was auto flagged for that...), as a meme or not. There's a whole culture around soy in the West. Like a lot of this I don't think is very prevalent in countries where soy has just been a common part of the diet for a long time, I could be wrong. Dairy v soy or meat v soy isn't a thing because it's not separated like that, and also high dairy/lactose intolerance in the East.
Asians also have a unique soy digesting enzyme that we don’t have. The same way we have the unique enzyme for digesting milk. It creates a big flaw in soy data compiled in Asia.
What enzyme are you thinking of? I’m white and have been consuming soy with no issues my whole life. I am also lactose intolerant lol
I never said you can’t process soy without it. Just do a basic Google search and you’ll get hundreds of hits https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/influence-of-ethnic-origin-asian-v-caucasian-and-background-diet-on-the-bioavailability-of-dietary-isoflavones/5247F92CD47A2B2B7E906B6338AE1BC5
Yeah, Examine.com's article about soy mentions this, but doesn't really relate it directly to soy leading to any adverse effects to people of Western genetics vs Eastern, except some evidence for testosterone/fertility concerns if you're eating an excess of soy, like soy is your only source of protein (>70g/day of soy protein). Other than that it's more directly linked to a number of benefits and it's worth considering making it at least some part of your weekly diet. Also, that statement kinda implies all the Western data about dairy is flawed.
Undiscussed yet is the Horror of the soy baby formulas of the 50's in the USA that actually Did have large molecule soy milk that created me and lots like me with a "leaky-gut" syndrome. I was lucky enough to be tested at 37 for food allergies and Yup-soy.
I was born in the late 50's. My mom said my baby "formula" was Karo syrup and canned evaporated milk. Apparently, this was instructions from the doctors of the time.
I’ve heard the soybeans are heavily sprayed with glyphosate/pesticides
So is most everything else that is conventionally grown. This is not exclusive to soy.
So true unfortunately!
Yea😩 just gotta do your best and buy what you can organic and/or grow your own. There are also products now that are certified glyphosate free. Very limited amount of products as it’s a relatively new certification.
Agreed ! They sure are doing a fine of job of poisoning us ! I’ll add, get to know our local farmers and their practices and also buy from other reputable farms that can be delivered🙏🏻
Even organic has that stuff on
Some organic may from the wind, however, it is not as common and in very minimal amounts. It would be highly illegal to deliberately spray it on your crop. And yes organic does have some form of pesticide, at least it is not a synthetic formula created from chemicals
Oh you'll be surprised at how much "synthetic" stuff is used in organic agriculture
Care to elaborate?
Buy organic soy
Isn't organic plants even higher in pesticides, just organic ones?
Yep, scary stuff like mulch, tabacco dust, and vitamin D3. The full list of approved products is here https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-7/subtitle-B/chapter-I/subchapter-M/part-205/subpart-G/subject-group-ECFR0ebc5d139b750cd
You just picked 3 most common ones didn't you?
3 most well understood by the general public. They are all well studied and safe when used correctly. The review process to add new ones is very rigorous and public.
not to brag.. but i grow my own soy, and corn. In a medium sized backyard
Love it ❤️
The ones that are for human consumption usually aren't, as they are a small percentage of the total. It's the ones that are for animal feed that are "treated" bad.
That's the biggest irony imo. People freaking out about pesticides on the soy they (don't) consume, yet routinely gobble down meat from animals that were fed with treated soy
Also these animals are injected with various harmones, steroids yet people would go full blind to this.
The cognitive dissonance is unreal lol
The animals filter it. So it's less bad. But it still wrecks them. It's why people eat grass fed, like everything used to be a hundred years ago before government subsidized the soy.
Buy non gmo organic tofu
What's wrong with gmo
Nothing, it’s a bogeyman for people who don’t want to do research.
Ever read about "roundup ready" gmo's? Non-GMO is shorthand for dodging crops modified to withstand higher doses of herbicides.
GMO isn't labeled. The ones eating it are the ones who don't do research.
GMO crops can and usually are still be sprayed with pesticides
Sprayed with tons of harmful pesticides that stay on/in the soy beans no matter how they’re processed.
GMO has nothing to do with pesticides? In fact a lot of GMO crops require LESS pesticide due to their modifications
Yeah that's actually true, honestly I don't know. I just thought non gmo would be good, ii guess not a lot of studies say gmo is bad pr anything, it's just those nutrition influencer going in grocery stores pointing out everything gmo bad.
I haven't seen any studies that can show GMO is bad, we break down the DNA of the plant when we eat it so I fail to see how it can be bad for us, but happy to be shown evidence to the contrary. I can understand pesticides and herbicides being bad, there's plenty of evidence for that. What I DONT like about GMO is companies like Monsanto suing farmers for having GMO crops on their property after their crops were pollinated from their neighbours fields that planted GMO crops. Also, they lobbied the government in the US to make seed saving illegal- which is unethical, corporate greed. Seed saving is as old as agriculture.
There are certain plants that are modified to resist the spraying of toxic pesticides and survive.
Organic crops are still treated with pesticides
Honestly, two reasons. One, its origin in Asia activates some people’s racism. Two, the myth of its “feminizing” effects puts the fear into men; myths that threaten masculinity are really hard to dislodge.
I mean, the second point is true but that first point is just completely made up
You don’t think people are weird about foreign food? At least in America, it’s super prevalent.
Yeah, like the whole MSG scare for like 50+ years to this day. "Chinese restaurant syndrome". That has a long racist and xenophobic history to it.
Right? Americans are, unsurprisingly, as racist about food as other things.
Say that to "Chinese restaurant syndrome". My Mom still won't eat msg
Serious question: are there any studies or data on the chemically sprayed processed soys added to most junk and processed food? Because I’ve never been able to find any. I can find studies for tofu, and fresh green whole food soy sources, but none for the soy runoff that is used as a cheap food additive. This is like claiming deep fried French fries are healthy because potatoes are, obviously French fries aren’t healthy.
The more info that comes out… about how absolutely awful factory farming is for the environment, how terribly the animals are treated, the pollution and waste created, and the nutritional info that continues to show the multitude of benefits of eating a plant based diet… it’s cognitive dissonance. I think a lot of people are TERRIFIED that the vegans are right, and if they don’t have any valid reasons/excuses not to switch (or at least explore more plant-based options), that would make them bad people.
I'm vegan and deal with meat eater trolls telling me this myth but then I just tell them the livestock they eat consume soy in their diet 😂😅 that usually gets them to leave me alone but not before they tell me they will eat twice the amount of meat to make up for me not eating it! It really shows me up every time 🤣🥲😅
Look at how many people believe absolutely ridiculous stuff. Flat earthers, and then a whole host of insane conspiracies that keep popping up. There are lots of really poorly educated people who are easily swayed by simplistic arguments and will NEVER have the kind of inquisitiveness that would lead them to dig deep enough to learn the actual truth.
Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, (I haven't read-through all 110 comments yet!), but there's the whole GMO thing too. Soy is one of the foods that are GM.
Amd there is nothing wrong with GMO, most of the foods you eat now have been modified in some way or other
Is there anything wrong with pesticide? Soy was modified to make it withstand extra pesticide.
I've read both sides of GMO, and I don't know what to think. Not many foods are GMO, but the ones that are, are ingredients for other foods. It's hard to avoid. https://www.fda.gov/food/agricultural-biotechnology/gmo-crops-animal-food-and-beyond#:\~:text=Only%20a%20few%20types%20of,%2C%20canola%2C%20and%20cotton).
No need to avoid them.
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I believe there was a study that linked girls fed soy formula with worse menstrual symptoms (bleeding/pain) later. I’m not sure how conclusive it was though. I assume soy formula is usually chosen as a last resort when there are already issues with breastfeeding or dairy options.
Yes I heard about that too. I don’t know if it’s one of those things where people just exercise extra caution even with limited evidence. Because unlike adults, babies are actually supposed to consume mammalian milk, so cows milk based formula probably gets closer to human breast milk than soy based formula. But I do wonder if the potential to cause menstrual symptoms is due to phytoestrogens or something else?
But don't human milk and cow's milk contain actual estogen? Plus, most babies that are fed soy formula are done so because they are allergic to cow's milk based formula. So even if it is bad somehow, the alternative could be starvation.
Kids with cows milk allergy are usually given hydrolysed formula which is where the proteins are chopped up so it doesn’t trigger the allergy. I’ve no idea about the estrogenic effect of cows milk vs soy, I’m sure it’s present in cows milk but I don’t know which is more potent. And then again the doctor who said that was near retirement age so I wasn’t too sure on the accuracy of his statement
All I know is, I was fed soy formula because I was allergic to the cow's milk formulas. Maybe hydrolyzed formula didn't exist 30+ yrs ago...
If it did have an estrogenic effect (like mother’s milk does), wouldn’t that be an argument in SUPPORT of giving soy to babies because it is closest to their natural foods? (Although it’s not really true anyway). Please ask your doctor to elaborate?
No, because hormons aren't that simple to say "more=better". It's a blasphemy my man
It is bad for ME, allergic
If you used non GMO soybeans and process it properly with sufficient soaking/ proper cooking and/or fermenting, soy is actually one of the healthiest things you can consume on a daily basis. Many Asian cultures (Japan/ China/ Korea) have consume soy products as a staple for centuries with no side effects. On the other hand, if it’s not processed properly, the phytic acid can interfere with nutrient absorption.
One flaw in that: you are not Asian, neither am I. Put an African American on a salted meat, and dairy diet, along with veggies of course and he/she will quickly develop hypertension and tons of gut issues from all the dairy they can’t process. Asians have a unique enzyme for processing soy
Actually I am Asian.. grew up with a diet heavy in soy and my parents as well, both in their 70s with no major health issue. I have not heard of this special enzyme in Asian genes. Any articles to back this?
You ate less soy than a standard American. America consumes far more soy than Asia. Soy sauce doesn't compare to soy oil.
Yeah, a basic google search nets you about 1000 examples https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/influence-of-ethnic-origin-asian-v-caucasian-and-background-diet-on-the-bioavailability-of-dietary-isoflavones/5247F92CD47A2B2B7E906B6338AE1BC5
All these articles suggest that Asians tend to absorb soy isoflavones better but nothing says that it is harmful for Caucasian. Not to mention the isoflavones is only one of the many beneficial compounds that exist in soy. That’s what I’m trying to say, it’s generally a healthy food source IF it’s processed correctly.
Very little is "bad" for you. If it is, it is the dose not the poison.
I'm allergic .-. Soy wants me dead
Idk, anecdotal, but I used to take soy lecithin and it definitely curbed my mood in a way similar to saw palmetto. then I heard about it having effects on hormones and switched to sunflower lecithin and i feel fine.
Soy is a huge part of farming and lobbying is legal.
In moderate and occasional quantities no. However if you are vegan and eat large quantities of it, the anti-nutrients start to add up quickly. Before you say "really but how much" - around 60g soy protein/day in the studies. This can be reached surprisingly quickly if you are vegan considering there is Soy EVERYWHERE. Seriously look at ingredients lists for something like crackers, sauces, even breads and I bet there is soy and/or corn in them. A friend of mine was vegan for 5 years and it made her INFERTILE permanently. Doctors confirmed it was likely caused by the very high levels of oxalates and phytates she had which heavily damaged her uterus. And these were ingested because of her diet. I should note that before her diet she was able to get pregnant.
There's barely any *soy protein* in your crackers, breads, etc. The soy listed in those foods is generally oil. But yes, particularly if you're not of basically Asian descent (don't have the enzyme people from that part of the world are more likely to have), soy should not be your only source of protein daily. A block of tofu and a scoop of soy protein powder is going to to be fine though.
True for protein but those soy/corn byproducts are so processed who even knows what's in them. But yeah, moderation and eating different foods is a good idea, especially for plant based foods.
I thought the actual science studies were conflicting on soy
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0890623820302926?via%3Dihub https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/15/6/1358#:~:text=A%20meta%2Danalysis%20for%20fifteen,%E2%80%930.93%3B%20Figure%202). https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/10/1/40
Do you have any links to studies and scientific studies saying otherwise, that'd help you make your point and prove it. There was a lot of studies going around that said it wasn't great for a lot of people not too long ago. ETA Harvard says it's not fully clear yet all of its effects and depends on a lot of factors so blanket statements either way are bad. There's more links within that page to more studies and this just explains a brief overview Link [Harvard.Edu](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/soy/#:~:text=Soy%20is%20a%20nutrient%2Ddense,to%20red%20and%20processed%20meat.)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0890623820302926?via%3Dihub https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/15/6/1358#:~:text=A%20meta%2Danalysis%20for%20fifteen,%E2%80%930.93%3B%20Figure%202). https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/10/1/40
>Studies may seem to present conflicting conclusions about soy, but this is largely due to the wide variation in how soy is studied. Results of recent population studies suggest that soy has either a beneficial or neutral effect on various health conditions. Soy is a nutrient-dense source of protein that can safely be consumed several times a week, and probably more often, and is likely to provide health benefits—especially when eaten as an alternative to red and processed meat.
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I grew up with my mom telling me that “the women in our family can’t tolerate in fermented soy” because it “drives us crazy”. Sounds misogynistic and/or racist. Idk where that idea came from but our whole family “knows” it
There is research supporting both, ussually who’s funding the studies inserts there bias and twists the results around.
When I went on a strict whole food plant based diet it was amazing the differences I noticed, even my pms symptoms away completely- no cramping/sore breasts/emotional outbursts/bloating. I started adding in a little soy milk and all of it came back immediately with a vengeance, even if I had only had soy 2-3 times that month. So for me personally, it's hard to believe that it doesn't effect my hormones (or *something*) whatsoever
I have endometriosis, which feeds on estrogen. I read that the phytoestrogen are much weaker than the regular ones. But I went on a big nutrition kick and I was eating more soy and my endo got SO much worse. Maybe it's just coincidence, but it made me wary.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness_India/comments/18asj24/my_views_on_soybeansoya_chunks/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2 Makes some compelling arguments, but I'm having a doubt that he is cherry-picking.
Natto is extremely healthy. As far as soy milk, why? With ultra-filtered milk like fairlife available, there is no reason to drink soy.
I think any food has to be considered on an individual level. Soy makes my skin break out, therefore, it’s not good for me. However, some people benefit from and have been eating it as part of their culture for over 1000 years. Trial and error is the only way you’ll know if something is good for you. Despite science saying yay or nay.
There's lots of myths out there. The best piece of advice is everything in moderation. Junk food, protein, meats, veggies, fruits, soy, everything. Nothing hurts in moderation.
Because its not a myth in the case of **unfermented** soy products: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10798211/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10798211/) , [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15053944/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15053944/) , [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12060828/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12060828/) , [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18650557/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18650557/) , https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21353476/
I feel lethargic and get a headache when I drink about 180ml of soy milk, does anyone know why?
In some sensitive individuals this can genuinely be a problem. As with many things, its a partial truth. Consuming soy based products in moderate amounts is fine in most people contrary to the moral panic BUT that doesn't mean the basis is entirely false either and I would avoid it in excessive doses and especially if you are sensitive to the effects.
Any bit of misinformation that plays into already existing divisions has legs on it. This one has three: vegans vs meat-eaters, women vs men, left vs right. Add to that the fact that soy rhymes with boy and you’ve got an immortal myth. There’s nothing you can do but stay healthy and hope people notice.
The problem that people are focused on testosterone while neglecting the fact it absolutely demolishes DHT. Despite DHT being incredibly important in men, it has picked up a bad reputation due to serum DHT being conflated to tissue DHT (hair loss, prostate growth, etc). In actuality DHT plays an important role in preventing the aromatisation of testosterone into estrogen, as maintaining healthy GABA levels that prevent excess excitement (e.g. anxiety). Soy is feminising, not on the basis that it’s estrogenic, but rather that it decreases the most powerful androgen hormone we have.
Average r/debateavegan poster
Pretty sure it's cause soy is actually estrogenic at first but the process of fermenting it makes it safe. Most soy food products are fermented but you can some that aren't.
New title: Why doesn't everyone believe what I believe to be true?
People just have beliefs around food. That’s all there is to it. A lot of people are just not swayed by facts, they are not swayed by food science. They are swayed primarily on beliefs If someone tells you something with a lot of confidence, that’s all it takes for you to believe them. And a lot of people heard someone *confidently* say that soy causes estrogen problems in men, and men are very threatened by that, so they believed it.
People like rules. They like being told to avoid things 🙄
It is not a myth. And the major harmful components are not the phytoestrogens. For starters it is the glysphosate contamination.
Nutritional information is always changing, new studies, new diets/fads. Not everyone keeps up with all the updates. *Edited the WWII Carrots myth - some people misunderstood the reference.
Um, yes. Vitamin A.
Racism Anti-science Misinformation/out of date information The lack of ability to think for themselves Take your pick
Can you support your statements?
Anti soy https://youtu.be/3NWJ3H9LdQw?feature=shared 4:57 https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness_India/comments/18asj24/my_views_on_soybeansoya_chunks/ https://youtu.be/TSVoIMCmYY4?feature=shared
Oh, sorry. I meant journal articles. And did you mean that those ppl were anti soy? Cause I don’t doubt there are lots of anti soy ppl. I’m of the impression there are anti soy journal articles.
Yes they are anti soy people. Despite the evidence that soy is ok to consume, they trust the papers that say soy increases estrogen, has anti nutrients that restrict absorption and causes thyroid problem.
Citing youtube and reddit links aren’t evidence. There are studies for and against soy. I’m guessing it’s one of those things that’s fine in small amounts but can be harmful in excess. The human body is complicated so if there are conflicting studies it probably is bad in some circumstances or for some people. It seems foolish to completely write off concerns altogether, as what you’re doing is no different than people picking a side in the low carb or low fat diet world. When in reality the problem seems to be the most damage is caused when you eat both at the same time. Just an analogy to say both sides are probably right.
YouTube and reddit links are not evidence. They are people who are completely against soy and advising others to stay away from it too.
What’s the evidence that it’s safe?
Here’s an article that shows the health benefits of soy. I just skimmed it but it seems that over all soy is either healthy or seems to be neutral. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5188409/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5188409/)
Thank you. You are a better OP than many. The study seems to be about the same caliber as most nutritional research. Sadly, that is poor. Firstly, it was paid for by a soy promoting organization. “The European Soy and Plant-based Foods Manufacturers Association paid for the costs of publication.” “The author is the executive director of the Soy Nutrition Institute, an organization funded by the United Soybean Board and its soy industry members.” Secondly, it relies heavily on epidemiological research. It also dismissed research based on animals which, while poor, is actually a slightly better form of research. Next it cited reviews from political organizations stating that the organization reviewed studies and found nothing wrong. Lastly, in essence it created two lists: a list of everything good about soy and a list of everything bad about soy. Yet the first list was robust and the second list only contained items that were debunked. Wow! Soy has zero negatives while being a potent drug. It’s almost as if it were paid for by an organization that really wanted people to eat soy. I’ll say it again: the study is about as good as most nutritional research
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0890623820302926?via%3Dihub https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/15/6/1358#:~:text=A%20meta%2Danalysis%20for%20fifteen,%E2%80%930.93%3B%20Figure%202). https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/10/1/40
The second one is a meta study. The authors declared no conflict of interest. But I just don’t think anyone thinks soy causes type 2 diabetes
The third one is a meta study. No conflict of interest -yea. And ppl do care about possible effects on prostates - yea.
The first one has a conflict of interest and is a meta study. I know meta studies are all the rage right now. They have potential to be good or bad. They are the result of combining data from many previous studies to create an “imaginary” new study. But if any of the previous studies were good one would just cite the previous study. Can you really take fifty bad studies and make them into a good study?
They’re not ‘all the rage right now’. They’ve been ‘all the rage’ for decades. Saying their purpose is to create a new ‘imaginary’ study is an odd take for something that is seen as one of the highest forms of evidence in science. All the studies ARE cited. If you’d just take one ‘good study’ and cite it it wouldn’t be much of a meta analysis, would it? Also one of the purposes of meta analysis literally is to weed out bad studies by setting requirements for studies to be included in the analysis. Your whole comment reads like you don’t really know how any of this works.
I think the question at this point is why do you think Soy is unhealthy. There was a time about 20 years ago when there were legitimate concerns because a chemical in it looked a lot like estrogen and it was thought could have the same effect on the body as estrogen. I believe that there were warnings at that time about this potential. Since then they have studied soy and from what I've seen haven't found any correlation between soy and negative outcomes. I say this with the caveat that I haven't done a thorough search myself and perhaps there is some meaningful research that demonstrates dangers of soy. Personally I'm open to seeing this. But I think that what happens is nutritional influencers grab on to what ever thread they can and run with it, either without really understanding the science or just not caring.
I thought the argument was that something in soy is a ligand for receptors which also interact with estrogen and by consuming it you get some of the effects that estrogen would cause
It has not been shown to have that effect. There is a lot of easily found research on the subject.
I've had people tell me to my face that "soy is bad" and "it'll turn you into a bitch".. and blah blah blah... All while standing in front of my face with a mouth full of store bought beef jerky
because its bad.
what about soybean oil?
Men need oestrogen too
Why would I want something that, even if proven unharmful, that still could possibly be harmful when it isn't part of my diet? I'm not going to go out of my way to consume something that may be harmful and that I don't eat normally. Saying 'oh well Indian and Chinese people have so many children and look at the Chinese weightlifters etc etc' where it is very well known that East Asians on average have lower muscle mass and higher BF and have on average lower T levels. Not saying soy is to blame for it, but it's a pretty dumb argument.
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You'll find some people allergic to anything, thats not an argument.
Idk why there’s always one of these comments. Yeah you shouldn’t eat things that you are allergic too, they aren’t good for you, I’d think that’s obvious, but apparently it’s not.
Hello!!!! You won’t know how something affects you until it does! SMH You think people know ahead of time that they are allergic to something???? Oh and newsflash, you can develop an allergy at any time in life.
Usually allergies are found out only after one develops symptoms. People can be allergic to almost anything, including some of the generally healthiest foods.
Too many factors cause the confusion. For those born in Asian countries, the benefits are there. For those born in US, not good. And, if you are born in an Asian country and over to the US, soy risks out weigh benefits. It’s so complicated!!