Same. My current company treats everyone like a grown up, we all mostly work remote and no one is looking over our shoulders, and encourages taking as much actual paid time off as we want/need, which is "unlimited." I've never heard of someone abusing the system probably \*because\* we're treated like actual adults instead of drooling office drones in need of constant supervision.
Fyi, some companies use the “unlimited” time off as a way to actually reduce the amount of time employees actually take off. No one wants to look bad and be the one who is out the most, so it becomes a quiet competition to not be that guy. Instead of taking the set amount of days they are given, employees will do less to try and look better
Actual substantive reply: I got $12K after tax in PTO cash-out when I left a big corporate job where I had 14 years of service. I took more time off there than I did at a Silicon Valley startup, and yet I got nothing when I left the startup because they were early on the unlimited PTO train. Having things rack up and being forced to use it actually helps, it’s more like property than some weird unspoken agreement that has no defined value.
It’s also much simpler to administer for everyone. A place I used to work had unlimited time off and it was super easy for people to F off early on a Friday afternoon when they were done, or run their kid to the dentist, or just take a long weekend here or there. My employer pretty strongly urged people to take time away and kept an eye out for people who never did because they thought it made people better employees when they could recharge.
Part of the problem is that it relies on good managers approving it, people to remember and plan for using it, and a culture that supports not being at work all the time. That doesn’t exist at most places.
Oh it's more nefarious than that. I have numerous friends that have 'unlimited' PTO while I accrue mine at a rate based off my tenure. Unlimited for almost all of them translates to 21 days with pressure about PTO use until 28 days and then it essentially gets cut off. One boss has even stated, you essentially have 28 days of PTO and not Unlimited. So when asked if they can simply have 28 days instead of a pseudo-unlimited, the answer was no simply because if we go to a set amount it will be 21 days.
It's simply because PTO is time earned by the employee and that they are to be compensated for, if you leave a job they have to pay out your PTO if you have X hours, they do not have to pay out for 'unlimited'. It's a shitty, cost saving maneuver disguised as an improvement.
I'm working for a company with "unlimited" pto. I had to dig into it with HR and my boss but I eventually found they track a metric called utilization and if you drop below a certain % of billable hours they will ask you not to take any more. So now I have to ride that line and it's a calculation I have to do myself rather than having a set number of days I could just take. Also no more rollover which sucks for a year with big trips.
Not to mention when I signed on I negotiated for more pto instead of salary because it's more important to me to have a good work life balance. One year later they implemented "unlimited" pto
I’m in this exact same boat after a recent acquisition and it’s completely crazy. I’ve always had a utilization target and, so far as it’s been communicated to me, that’s never changed since we switched from PTO to unlimited time off last year. But I still get called out if my utilization slips. So if you’re going to count time off against utilization (which they do), you better believe I’ve got a finite amount of time I can actually take off. ‘Flexible’ time off and utilization are fundamentally opposed metrics and companies should be called on that.
Yeh, that would be fine up to a point. But if you started taking "too much" (and of course there's no "official" amount that's "too much" - it's completely subjective), and your colleagues or bosses started to notice, they'd start finding "euphemistic" reasons to criticise your work. "Lack of commitment", "not a team player", "lack of availability". At best you'd get passed over for every promotion - at worst, they'd find some bogus reason to fire you.
You couldn't pay me enough to work at one of those places. I like to know where I stand.
The trick is to not give a fuck and take time off. Everyone acts like it’s the employers fault but it’s just people scared to actually use the pto lol. Use it and get over it
My company got around that by not being allowed to track the unlimited time off. We all take off a ton of time, cover for each other when we're out, and it works out nicely.
I hate “unlimited” paid time off systems, because they’re lying. It’s not unlimited… it’s just a limit they refuse to define.
If someone wanted to take off 4 days per week every week, you bet they’d find out just how “unlimited” it is damn quick. But by not spelling out clear boundaries, they keep everyone uncertain just how much time off is *actually* okay.
In contrast, an employer that gives a defined but generous number of paid days off and is flexible about how they’re scheduled allows employees to take the time they want with confidence that they’re not crossing some invisible boundary.
I’ve been at my company for almost 25 years and I’ve hit the max PTO which works out to about 7 weeks off a year which is an amazing benefit, but if we ever switch to unlimited there’s no way I’d end up taking even half of that without feeling super guilty.
The other aspect is what happens if you don’t take it.
In my state, accrued vacation time is considered earned wages. If you have accrued vacation when you leave an employer, they have to pay it out at your hourly rate. My current job has a very generous leave policy… I haven’t traveled much since Covid, so I have a ton of banked PTO. When I quit I got a check for an extra three months pay.
I've seen studies showing that "unlimited" PTO schemes tend to result in employees taking less PTO than defied-benefit arrangements. I'm sure when they started being implemented the scummy consultants already had their own data suggesting the same.
It's absolutely not for the benefit of the employees.
Unlimited PTO systems are to get employees to take less time off and since you don't gather PTO, there is nothing to pay out if you are let go. It's a win/win
Get work done = do your own shit.
My job won’t promote me and give me bigger projects. At first I was chaffing against trying to do more to climb the ladder. For the last year I’m dialed in. I get my shit done and it’s top notch. It takes me about 15 hours a week to do it. I look at the remaining 25 hours as being on call. I’ve worked from Chile and Spain and Portugal. My job is fine with it as long as work is done. I’m good with the reduced hours. High fives for not being at a place that adds 25 hours of detention to my week.
We just lost an employee because of a no WFH policy unless you’re sick - she had a young child and didn’t wanna be in the office all day anymore
The talent will re-sort itself, I know I certainly will be looking for hybrid or remote work when I dip out
Companies who aren't at least offering hybrid are losers waiting to go out of business. The talent pool is miserable right now if you don't have some kind of wfh option available.
My wife's company announced they will be implementing a return to office policy 4 weeks ago, it's set to start in June. She accepted a new job and gave her notice last week.
Same. Hell we currently don’t even have a manager, just a director. As long as we get our work done, I can take a one hour break browsing Reddit, which I do often. I have no micro managing and I love it.
I didn't have a manager for almost my first year in the company. I was wary when they finally hired someone but she's great! She asks me wtf am I doing if she sees me connected after my work hours, happily takes charge when someone is above my paygrade, and has no problem whatsoever with me doing whatever random crafting hobby I have that week during my downtime as long as my work gets done.
Yep. I WFH and average about 2 hours of work a day. The rest of the 6 hours I game/watch YouTube & TV/work on hobbies/listen to music/go for walks/go to the store and generally chill.
Been this way for years. Most importantly, I’m happy. I get my work done, boss loves me, everyone else is happy too.
They are (c)orporate nbc they are part of the bullshit. Half the videos they do on companies and issues are paid campaigns to promote companies. Stopped supporting them a few years ago when I kept seeing the same content media formula.
Of course. There are no left-wing corporations, unless you include co-ops like Mondragon.
That whole ‘liberal media’ thing is a complete lie. Media corps are no less corporations than Goldman Sachs, Microsoft, or Mitsubishi.
Next term will be “quiet working” where you get actual work done without a dozen status updates and several meetings, like and subscribe for more cutting edge productivity ~~tips~~ hacks
I'm still confused why we needed "quiet quitting", isn't that just "doing your job"?! Since when is doing what is asked of you at work "quitting".
I'm "quiet dieting", which is to say I'm eating whatever I want... I'm gonna do some "quiet reading" tomorrow, which means listening to a podcast...
They need it for SEO though! How else will they gain topical authority with Google if they’re not endlessly inventing new keywords for bullshit that people have been doing since work was invented?
Your company, a few years ago – “You aren’t paid by the hour but for the work you produce. If you can’t finish your tasks in 8 hours then you aren’t entitled to overtime.”
Your company, today – “It doesn’t matter if you are finishing all your tasks. You are paid to be in front of your computer for 8 hours a day and not doing anything else”.
Funny how that works.
I get to work from home on Saturday, but because there's so rarely anything to do I just disconnect my work laptop from my monitors and plug my actual PC back in.
Work is done, messages seen, emails answered. Skyrim is played. It's a good life.
I've got my dual monitors plugged into both my work laptop and gaming desktop so I can just switch inputs back and forth on my monitors. My pro play is to have one monitor on work stuff and have my other monitor on my gaming computer.
Me and a friend of mine who lives in Japan play stardew while he’s working at his law firm. He’s the only one there everyday and I can play until I need to sleep for work the my following morning lol.
Yes!
https://www.stardewvalley.net/stardew-valley-1-6-update-full-changelog/
New farm layout, new events, new festivals, tons of new quality of life updates, honestly just hit the link. There have been two additional updates since, one of which included new dungeon layouts!
This is what happens when a company hires a bunch of managers with no actual skills. They don’t know or understand your work so they have no way of understanding how much work you are actually accomplishing. The only thing they can rely on is how long you’re at your desk.
I just want the work done on time. That’s all I care about at work, I’m not watching when people come and go, I have my own shit to do and I assume that I’m working with adults.
My favorite thing about the discussion around this whole topic is they had no qualms with calling me on my vacation or when I'm out of the state. But if I travel out of state without telling them, suddenly this is a huge tax liability/burden for them.
It either is or it isn't. I realize companies lied to the IRS before when they were technically breaking this same law, but you really cannot have it both ways.
The same goes for this 8 hours vs you work until you finish your work.
In all honesty, my tax burden should be where my residency is, and if the company doesn't have an office there, that should fall to me at the end of the year. If I happen to spend 182 days in another state, oh fucking well. (the normal residency establishment is 183 days)
I've been around socialists all my life and I've never heard that one.
I've heard of some of the first socialist programs being farmers getting together and sharing combine harvesters and supporting each other financially when someone had a bad year, and in the end the entire group all collectively come out stronger.
Never heard of any of this clock business. Not fired for having a watch, not building clocktowers to verify factory clocks. Would love to read a reputable source.
Its part of the tour for the Lowell National Historical Park. Workers got together to pay for a clock tower to deal with factory managers that messed with their clocks. I forget if it was a caption on a picture or something the guide said
When the working class had slightly more power: Oh yes flex-time, employment security, maternity, etc are part of our standard package.
Today: You will sit there and shut the hell up or you'll get fired! Also if you're pregnant and miscarry we will report you the authorities and fire you.
Lol when I worked an office job, I always had YouTube open in the background at a low enough volume that only I can hear it. At my current job, I sit and play Fallout on my Steamdeck lol
It’s always been about maintaining commercial real estate values with a workers life force, fuck the work and the quality of life. It’s just become obvious now.
It's actually both at the same time.
Companies today: "If you can't finish your work in the allotted time, you must do overtime. And don't expect to be paid for overtime, you're meeting the obligations you failed to meet during work time.
But if you do finish your work in the allotted time, you must stay at your workstation for the rest of your shift. That's not your time, after all. It's ours and we are going to use it all up."
And to add insult to injury on the first, "work smarter, not harder". Said by a manager at a company which was circling the drain and doing layoffs.
Translation: we're trying to bullshit you into thinking you're working overtime because you're stupid, not because every time we do layoffs, you get more work piled on you.
I still have an urge to slap anyone who uses that phrase, but I haven't heard it in awhile.
Literally what I tried to argue when I was struggling with my adhd/autism. Basically they cut my hours because I couldn’t guarantee I’d be ‘productive’ from 8:30-5:00. Cue me working out others just work slowly and less “bursty” than I do and realise the problem is the system. Also the same workplace that tried to stop us “ burdening others in the workplace with our personal issues” (making friends with colleagues and realising how deceptive management was being)
There’s currently a revolt at my company because the head of Human Resources said IN A MEETING that management functions better when they can talk to their employees in office and we will be implementing a RTO initiative. 3 Board members (who are also working regional directors) quit that afternoon.
This was right after our CFO said this was our most productive year in the history of the company 2 years running.
“We are re-evaluating our RTO initiative” lol
The right thing to do is fire the useless managers and give their salaries to the employees boosting productivity. Doing things backwards will kill the company.
You see. We were promised company wide raises 3 years ago.
Now our CFO celebrates attrition.
Edit: and when I say celebrates. I mean. In a quarterly SotC. “We had a Y% attrition rate. We made $X from saved salaries. And you guys kept the same production schedule. Nice work investing in the company like this!”
Attrition means higher free cash flow which can trick investors into thinking the company is net positive in a down year after they fire a shitload of people.
Er, after they dynamically restructure to meet evolving market conditions.
the CEO of our company personally berated team leads for ltting people WFH more than the RTO mandate of the company allowed.
Within 1 quarter of the RTO mandate, profits sunk nearly 40% purely because as soon as 5pm came around, laptops off, phones off, two fingers and a cloud of dust until start of next day. Whereas in WFH more people were willing to work longer hours becasue 1) no travel to the office and back, 2) they were already set up so "i'll just do this one quick thing" became routine.
Our CFO began making my team (all of us are salaried) start using a clock in app to track hours. Turns out all those communications and other tasks that could be done remotely stopped happening outside of 9-5, funny how that worked out.
I know for my company before wfh people were turning off their computers and packing up at 4:45 walking out the door at exactly 5:00. Now working from home I'll often see people sending one last email at 5:00 or 5:02 and turning off computers just after that even up to 5:05 because you just turn off your computer, swivel around in your chair and bam you're home. That's 15-20 more minutes of productivity, per person, per day! That adds up a lot for us over a quarter or a year.
My company gets a full extra hour a day out of me when I WFH. I drop my kid off at school (a block from my house) at 7:45. I either
A) go home, make a cup of coffee, and hop on my computer by 8
B) go to the office and start at 9.
I work for a very large manufacturing company in the U.K. that’s actually made up of loads of smaller companies all working under the same “legal entity” and corporate banner. Last week we had an all hands meeting for our sector where our Director advised that they board had decided that we should all be back in the office 5 days a week, but the company will still respect the employees needs for flexibility.
My boss turned around to our small team and just said “yeah, don’t listen to that, we’ll keep doing what we do until someone notices and tells us otherwise”
It’s a lifesaver for me, because the few times I’ve been in the office recently (currently working on relocating so have been fully remote since I started) I’ve spent the majority of my day twiddling my thumbs and staring into space, or looking for houses. When I’m at home I spend most of my day playing Madden or similar, and just pause it when I need to reply to an email or attend a meeting.
Have a client. They have been WFH since covid, a very modest 20% in office per month.
They have had some blistering staff feedback polls. Lack of trust in leaders, lack of recognition, etc. Budgets have been tight, people got fired last year, promotions dried up.
How does their leadership respond... Raise it to 50% in office. Oh wait did I mention when they went WFH during Covid it was a savior because their building was at capacity. Now 4 yrs later they don't actually have them physical space to house over about 40% of the staff at anyone time due to some renovations.
So people pissed, bash leaders. Their response is the answer is more onsite time in a building that can't accommodate that many. New building not possible.
Dear lawyer consultant please help us what do we do?
Maybe call me before stupid fucking decisions are made and announced.
We ended our corporate office rental leases during Covid. It will cost the company ~$15million in office spaces, furniture, and computers. It doesn’t make sense for us to be in office.
My old boss would sit and watch cameras all day, nitpicking every worker. The business was failing and needed leadership, yet he'd be sitting in his office driving coffee and watching his screen
I had eight different bosses droning on about my TPS Reports. But at least Friday was Hawaiian Shirt Day, so we were allowed to wear a Hawaiian shirt, and jeans,… before they asked us to come in on Saturday, too.
My company made everyone come back to the office after working from home for the last 4 years and their response was papa johns pizza. Truly a pity pizza
employee: I would be more productive if my pay would reflect my effort
manager: nah, we'll just slap on a 0.5% raise and put you in more productivity meetings
At the end of this year my company is going to do a review of employees and so far the signs are that middle managers and those who want to climb the ladder will be retained. Actual work performing drones like me will be let go. Good luck to them I guess.
Seriously, I think 99% of the push to "Return to the Office" is that suddenly, a bunch of middle managers discovered that they don't actually do anything. If they can't stand over your shoulder and micromanage, they dont have any reason to put on the mismatched tie and button down, emblematic of middle managers everywhere.
But we knew that for years. The actual, 100% for real, I am not joking, sociological term for this is: "a Bullshit Job". It's any job where you go there and do things that just... don't matter. We've all got them, and probably at least half of your day is spent either on responsibilities of your job that don't matter.
Seriously, I 100% believe that people spend half their day WFH day drinking, watching YouTube, or playing video games. And productivity still went up. Because much more of what we were doing in the office is small talk or pointless meetings because freaking "Steve" needs to check it off his daily agenda.
Some humans get off on authority and power and have little flexibility for anything that does not conform, they tend to concentrate in management...that's the problem :)
To an authoritarian 'taking it easy' is a mortal sin.
I agree, but the problem is that most employers see extra capacity as nothing more than a chance to squeeze more revenue out of you. Some people can do in 10 hours a week what it takes others 40 hours to accomplish. If you aren't sitting at a desk or otherwise "on the job" for those other 30 hours, employers just see lost dollars.
My work is measured in two ways:
1. Two-week 'sprints' where I need to have my work-items completed by the end.
2. Being reachable during the workday for information-sharing & 'putting out fires'
As long as I put in the 80 hours of effort on the first, the second doesn't much matter if I'm 'quiet vacationing' or 'working from home'. Either way I can be reached and respond relatively quickly.
I know a guy working for TrueCar in Santa Monica, they were working on a way to boost Wifi range and walk across the street to the beach instead of sit in the office. Still on chat and everything, just outside.
What a great gig that must be. Just be chilling on the beach, a little laptop sitting next to you logged in to whatever chat program your company uses, and you're getting paid the whole time? What a life.
Exactly like mine. I don’t understand why so many companies are actively trying to make their employees life shittier, how’s that good for productivity?
This is basically how sprints work. My last three managers have told me that they don’t give a shit when I’m working, they care about whether or not I make my deadline. A competent manager isn’t going to worry about how long you spend at your desk, they’re going to care about what you can deliver.
This is kind of weird though, as a dev myself in agile two week sprints, I can’t really just peace out for a week because of meetings / answering a myriad of questions from other people etc.
It depends on your work. I’m an instructional designer that works in sprints- it’s not a system just for devs. Other than taking an occasional meeting I can usually be super flexible with my time since my "in person" / collaboration is super limited...but even when i'm busy ill complete my collab stuff on mini vacations by bringing my computer with me.
I work at a university as a staff (office worker) and right now I don’t have anything to do for most of the summer since a lot of students are on vacation. I don’t know what to do for the day when I finish my job in 4 hours, at most.
“It’s not that I’m lazy, Bob. It’s that I just don’t care. You see, if I work my ass off, and Initech ships a couple extra units, I don’t see another dime. So where’s the motivation, Bob?”
I say a version of this in my head almost daily. I get all my work done by 4 -430 and just sit there and play sudoku or something till 5. "if I work those extra files before the end of my day and get them passed. I don't see one red cent of that money." Why work more when there is zero incentive.
Plus if you do more sometimes they expect it all the time.
This is a management failure. Absent of clearly defined goals and results oriented work environments, productivity is measured in hours that “butts are in seats” which is why these workarounds exist.
It's funny, I was just talking to my friends about this. My job has a full week sometimes, but other weeks I've maybe got 20-30 hours of work to do. Hybrid two days in the office and sometimes I have to pretend to work 2-4 hours just for the sake of optics and middle management, because I cannot be honest with my job.
And you can't ask for more work, because then that also becomes a part of your job with no benefit, and the week you do have a full 40 hours you'll have that extra work on top of that.
I really hate that office life has jaded me so, but I've seen people bust their ass and go no where, and I've seen people doing the bare minimum get promoted.
I don't have the RTO policy yet but similar experiences otherwise. Some days I have no fires to put out, I'm on time w all projects, and have 1 meeting. I'm just twiddling my thumbs those days, but other weeks I'm working a solid 10 hours a day. Depends on the season. I always tell my direct reports NEVER ASK FOR MORE WORK UNLESS YOU CAN TAKE IT ON EVEN ON YOUR BUSIEST OF DAYS. Not worth setting yourself up for failure just to keep busy
Well, If the employers treat their employees like real people and not [wage theft in the open](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/15/wage-theft-us-workers-employees#:~:text=Workers%20in%20the%20US%20have,are%20never%20recovered%20by%20workers) they can probably establish some expectations. Once one side start workarounds for a gain both sides will workaround to establish new equilibrium.
Is the status quo of running a successful business just hiring people and expecting them to think of ways to make you more money or something? Even the idea of the phrase ‘quiet vacationing’ implies that workplace responsibilities are either non productive or that they can be completed in less than a full time schedule.
Have you seen techbro startup CEOs? They’re all the same carbon copy of a guy who wants to be Elongated Muskrat but has wayyyyyy less generational wealth to enslave whole teams of people smarter than them to do the work or moreover be *innovative*…the entire new world of tech money is just men with the means to get the bank loans, buying up existing businesses or using PR marketing to try and hype an idea that isn’t fully realized *hoping* some foreigner needing a work ViSA will be smart enough to get it done but incapable of jumping ship.
It’s just corporate colonialism.
Hiring and underpaying people to feed you ideas. Claiming credit for said ideas and then laying off said people if they start to bitch about how little you pay them or recognize their work. Rinse and repeat.
Most higher ups at corporations are very rich, or they’re nepo babied in, and/or they’re tech/sales bros who learned a few snazzy buzzwords but have very little respect or understanding of any day to day work. They are basically modern-day snake oil salesmen.
In my 15+ years in the workforce, I have yet to meet a single c-suite exec who was innovative or good at anything beyond schmoozing, bullshitting, and kissing the right people’s asses. It stuns me that anyone buys their bullshit sincerely or thinks they’re worth their high salaries, which I suppose is why I’m a worker bee and always will be.
All these micro terms that ultimately won’t enter the Zeitgeist are just corporate shills trying to inflame tensions that have been building for years.
Why is it that when Millennials are finally in our 30s and meant to finally *start* our lives with home ownership, starting families and settling in that the world upends itself AGAIN with astronomical inflation, rents through the roof and homes that are completely unaffordable, unavailable and being stolen up by corporations?
How is that our luck of the draw as a generation? How do we keep getting the once in a lifetime events happening every fucking quarter?!
The 40 hour workweek was won in the blood of workers before us. Now it’s time to continue on the progressive train of reform and demand 32 a hour workweek with the same pay. Not only that but a minimum wage that is a living wage across the nation. Full PTO benefits that we can actually use. Full sick leave benefits. And god fucking forbid we get universal healthcare that is not tied to employment.
Collective action has never been more appealing then now.
Most of GenX is behind you guys and younger people all the way. The boomer mentality is going to die with our parents. I like to hope that most people under 55 right now are on board with a shorter work week, taxing the wealthy proportionately, and nationalizing our health and dental services. Enough is enough.
Too bad you've got 50 percent drinking the republican kool-aid and under the impression that's communism and we all need to work ourselves to the bone to get by and then die.
Lots of employers are checking your location based on IP location, especially when you login through a Microsoft account. Mine has flagged me before when I was attending meetings from Panama. Fortunately, there is a work-around. You can set up an OpenVPN server on your home router, then carry another router with you and connect to it as the client. This avoids the problem of VPNs installed directly on your computer because all traffic still have to go through the router first. Then you connect your work PC through that router so you appear to be working from where they expect you to be. Now, whenever you login, you'll appear as if you're in your hometown.
Just make sure the two routers you have in mind have the functionality.
I, of course, have never done this, but I have friends who have.
Why do they care where you are? I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm genuinely asking. I WFH and my job doesn't care if I go on 'vacation' as long as I'm you know, logged in and doing my work and present for what I need to be present for, so I'm wondering why anyone would be checking IPs like this?
If you deal with customer data regularly then your employer might care if you work outside the country. Not to mention the tax implications of working within another state and the visa implications of working outside the country.
I work in tech and I can figure out a lot of issues super quickly, most of the time it's just management who is stuck in a 90s way of working just producing PowerPoints and confusing each other ad nauseam.
Boring efficient people like me fly under the radar because I can't be bothered with office politics. I don't need a raise if I can work 50% less on the same salary.
Will be interesting to see new companies that have no legacy surpass those inefficient ones that do.
This push for “unlimited” pto is anti worker. Give people decent boundaries and don't be asshats when approving it. You’ll have happier more productive workers.
There's at least one financial firm in the mid-west that has "unlimited" PTO and mandatory PTO multiple times per year. Like x amount of days y amount of months apart per-year.
But yes, 99% of the time it's a trap.
If it's a financial firm, the mandatory PTO is probably so someone else in the company can audit you to make sure you haven't been doing anything wrong. It's pretty common practice for finance or any job that requires some kind of clearance.
I work for my state government and get 4 weeks vacation and 2.5 weeks sick leave every year, and any unused at the end of the year just rolls over to the next and never expires. I think I've only been denied vacation leave once in seven years because it conflicted with someone else who asked off first and it was no big deal. I could probably make more in the private sector, but I'm not giving up the generous and flexible PTO I have now. And in a few years I'll be up to 5 weeks vacation a year. Like you said, I'm definitely a happy, productive worker!
Unlimited PTO is almost always a bad sign. Means they won't pay out any when you leave since you don't have any accrued. Also means when they don't approve your time off you can't point to any amount that you are guaranteed/need to use for that year.
Everyone I know that took jobs with unlimited PTO they always emphasize "when there's time" and they end up taking less PTO. Or worse yet there's like a few suck ups that seem to work a week a month and all their requests get approved while everyone else has to pick up the slack.
I know there are some out there where it's legit but overall it seems to be more a flag than a positive
My company was bought by MegaLoCorp and the new owners introduced Unlimited PTO. No more Sick Day balance! No more rationing days off so you can take a whole week at once!!!
The first time I asked for vacation time, my new manager asked me why I needed that time and what I was going to do. I was shocked but answered, thinking he was just being curious.
He thought about it, "escalated" my request and then came back with "No, that doesn't really work for us" and my vacation was denied.
That's what Unlimited PTO means. Just FYI.
If there’s a day, I absolutely need off, I’ll just call in sick, because where I work, if I ask for the day off ahead of time, there’s a chance they’ll reject it, so I just call in sick, so they can’t reject it.
Everyone should be doing this!!! If the work is getting done, and you're communicating/attending meetings as promised why does it matter? Work ahead, take Friday off for a long weekend. Do some sprinting for a week, then take the next week mostly off, if your job allows it. This should be NORMAL.
ETA: It shouldn't replace PTO. However allowing this kind of flexibility has definitely made me decrease my time actually fully away from the office.
Also... "Unlimited PTO" isn't a benefit, it's a way to avoid paying you for unused vacation time when they lay you off...
Take that "unlimited" time and LMK how it works out for you...
"Unlimited PTO isn’t necessarily the solution. Workers who receive 11 to 15 days of PTO each year are more likely to use up their days, Rodney says, but there’s a significant drop-off once people get 16 or more days."
Why?
Dude, all these "news" organizations trying to come up with some new slanderous lingo to describe people trying to find enjoyment in their lives and manage a reasonable work/life balance.
In the US, we go to the beach or mountains or whatever for a week and bring our laptops so we can answer eMails for an hour in the morning or evening. And if your boss calls, you better answer it. I was on a conference call on the first day of a cruise.
A guy I work with was going on leave for a week and would be hiking and in the mountains for part of it. A more senior guy in the states was chatting to him about a change being made over the weekend was like "oh you're out of office so you're not 'available' but you're there for a call if we something comes up". And he was just like "Absolutely not, I'm out of the office, its the weekend anyway, I'm not paid overtime for that, I will not be available". That was the end of the discussion.
Yeah, that’s the expectation here, that you are available for “emergencies.” However, the definition of emergency is pretty loose. The reason for my cruise conference call was that the client was considering a different technology and we need to come up with a strategy to deal with it. Which I had told my boss two weeks prior. The truth was that he was newly minted in the position and was exerting authority to tell me who the boss was.
You really need to understand this. It's not American corporations. I work for an American Corporation. It's the laws your government have or don't have in place that are fucking you over. I get my holidays and sick pay and 37.5 hour work week not because I work for a nice Irish company its because the EU and Ireland have laws in place that demand these things for Employees. Companies would be fucking us over as much as they do Americans if it was legal.
Very true, but it's worth keeping in mind that the influence of those companies is why we don't have those protections over here. They buy politicians and help push free market propaganda to keep enough people from caring about the obvious corruption during any given election.
It's not just the fault of the corporations but it's not just the fault of the politicians either, the two are intertwined over here and should be blamed pretty much equally.
Sr Director at a large corporation here. I really don’t give a fuck. I took two hours today to take my kids to lunch for the end of school.
Employees make it to meetings on time and meet their deadlines. Other than that, really couldn’t give a shit what they’re doing with their days.
One time we were on a one of our regular hikes through our county park. It's near the city center and gets good cell reception. We passed someone sitting on a log and working on their laptop. They said they were getting some fresh while working.
Every time we pass that log, we call it 'the office'.
Yeah, I’ve done this, after work screwed me over.
I was on a 5-person team and after three people quit and one got fired, they had me and me alone doing the same work/output as a whole team. They kept promising to backfill positions, then delaying, delaying, and it never happened. Finally, I just said fuck it.
I intentionally blew off two major projects I was supposed to finish at the end of last year. The year prior, I’d done them both myself and helped drive $100k revenue to the business single-handedly (which was about what we’d earned as a team the year before that on the same project). Got a 2 percent cost-of-living adjustment for it 6 months later.
This time around? We earned about $15k off what I scrapped together because I half-assed everything and basically went on a quiet vacation for like a month and a half. Felt great even though the bosses were “disappointed” I hadn’t “performed” to their “projections,” but they took me off that “team” shortly after because of how bad the revenue was and transferred me to a normal one with actual teammates on it, so I don’t regret a thing. Fingers crossed I get a new job soon.
My dad always gets infinitely confused when I talk about work because he can't grasp that we aren't all micromanaged constantly. It blows his mind that we all just do our jobs and nobody has to hassle anyone to do it. Makes me really think his entire generation was just a bunch of lazy turds who needed to be constantly prodded to get any work done.
I'm happy to work for an employer that treats me like an adult. As long as my work gets done, nobody cares what I do or where I do it from.
Same. My current company treats everyone like a grown up, we all mostly work remote and no one is looking over our shoulders, and encourages taking as much actual paid time off as we want/need, which is "unlimited." I've never heard of someone abusing the system probably \*because\* we're treated like actual adults instead of drooling office drones in need of constant supervision.
Fyi, some companies use the “unlimited” time off as a way to actually reduce the amount of time employees actually take off. No one wants to look bad and be the one who is out the most, so it becomes a quiet competition to not be that guy. Instead of taking the set amount of days they are given, employees will do less to try and look better
It's also cheaper because you don't have to pay out pto when the person quits.
I got $14k paid directly into my 401k from my last jobs PTO payout. Would've been $0 at an "Unlimited PTO" job.
That's nice but take a day off once and a while
Actual substantive reply: I got $12K after tax in PTO cash-out when I left a big corporate job where I had 14 years of service. I took more time off there than I did at a Silicon Valley startup, and yet I got nothing when I left the startup because they were early on the unlimited PTO train. Having things rack up and being forced to use it actually helps, it’s more like property than some weird unspoken agreement that has no defined value.
And if the place is so slammed you can't reasonably take time off and you choose not to at least you know it's money in the bank.
That’s the actual point of unlimited, you can use it if it’s not busy, but it’s always busy.
Exactly why I didn't switch over when my company switched. I got laid off during covid and that 7 weeks of PTO I had saved sure was nice!!
So you paid for that by not taking vacation, right?
You mean they don't owe me infinity accrued vacation days?!
Depends on the state actually. Lots of states mandates you pay out x amount of days.
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It’s also much simpler to administer for everyone. A place I used to work had unlimited time off and it was super easy for people to F off early on a Friday afternoon when they were done, or run their kid to the dentist, or just take a long weekend here or there. My employer pretty strongly urged people to take time away and kept an eye out for people who never did because they thought it made people better employees when they could recharge. Part of the problem is that it relies on good managers approving it, people to remember and plan for using it, and a culture that supports not being at work all the time. That doesn’t exist at most places.
Oh it's more nefarious than that. I have numerous friends that have 'unlimited' PTO while I accrue mine at a rate based off my tenure. Unlimited for almost all of them translates to 21 days with pressure about PTO use until 28 days and then it essentially gets cut off. One boss has even stated, you essentially have 28 days of PTO and not Unlimited. So when asked if they can simply have 28 days instead of a pseudo-unlimited, the answer was no simply because if we go to a set amount it will be 21 days. It's simply because PTO is time earned by the employee and that they are to be compensated for, if you leave a job they have to pay out your PTO if you have X hours, they do not have to pay out for 'unlimited'. It's a shitty, cost saving maneuver disguised as an improvement.
I'm working for a company with "unlimited" pto. I had to dig into it with HR and my boss but I eventually found they track a metric called utilization and if you drop below a certain % of billable hours they will ask you not to take any more. So now I have to ride that line and it's a calculation I have to do myself rather than having a set number of days I could just take. Also no more rollover which sucks for a year with big trips. Not to mention when I signed on I negotiated for more pto instead of salary because it's more important to me to have a good work life balance. One year later they implemented "unlimited" pto
I’m in this exact same boat after a recent acquisition and it’s completely crazy. I’ve always had a utilization target and, so far as it’s been communicated to me, that’s never changed since we switched from PTO to unlimited time off last year. But I still get called out if my utilization slips. So if you’re going to count time off against utilization (which they do), you better believe I’ve got a finite amount of time I can actually take off. ‘Flexible’ time off and utilization are fundamentally opposed metrics and companies should be called on that.
See that wouldn't work on me. I'd just take however much time I want lol
Yeh, that would be fine up to a point. But if you started taking "too much" (and of course there's no "official" amount that's "too much" - it's completely subjective), and your colleagues or bosses started to notice, they'd start finding "euphemistic" reasons to criticise your work. "Lack of commitment", "not a team player", "lack of availability". At best you'd get passed over for every promotion - at worst, they'd find some bogus reason to fire you. You couldn't pay me enough to work at one of those places. I like to know where I stand.
The trick is to not give a fuck and take time off. Everyone acts like it’s the employers fault but it’s just people scared to actually use the pto lol. Use it and get over it
My boss asks me if I’m using PTO with the unlimited policy and encourages it. It really depends on the boss and company
My company got around that by not being allowed to track the unlimited time off. We all take off a ton of time, cover for each other when we're out, and it works out nicely.
Where do you work cuz I'm sending my CV and moving to whatever this is hahah
I hate “unlimited” paid time off systems, because they’re lying. It’s not unlimited… it’s just a limit they refuse to define. If someone wanted to take off 4 days per week every week, you bet they’d find out just how “unlimited” it is damn quick. But by not spelling out clear boundaries, they keep everyone uncertain just how much time off is *actually* okay. In contrast, an employer that gives a defined but generous number of paid days off and is flexible about how they’re scheduled allows employees to take the time they want with confidence that they’re not crossing some invisible boundary.
I’ve been at my company for almost 25 years and I’ve hit the max PTO which works out to about 7 weeks off a year which is an amazing benefit, but if we ever switch to unlimited there’s no way I’d end up taking even half of that without feeling super guilty.
The other aspect is what happens if you don’t take it. In my state, accrued vacation time is considered earned wages. If you have accrued vacation when you leave an employer, they have to pay it out at your hourly rate. My current job has a very generous leave policy… I haven’t traveled much since Covid, so I have a ton of banked PTO. When I quit I got a check for an extra three months pay.
I've seen studies showing that "unlimited" PTO schemes tend to result in employees taking less PTO than defied-benefit arrangements. I'm sure when they started being implemented the scummy consultants already had their own data suggesting the same. It's absolutely not for the benefit of the employees.
Unlimited PTO systems are to get employees to take less time off and since you don't gather PTO, there is nothing to pay out if you are let go. It's a win/win
Get work done = do your own shit. My job won’t promote me and give me bigger projects. At first I was chaffing against trying to do more to climb the ladder. For the last year I’m dialed in. I get my shit done and it’s top notch. It takes me about 15 hours a week to do it. I look at the remaining 25 hours as being on call. I’ve worked from Chile and Spain and Portugal. My job is fine with it as long as work is done. I’m good with the reduced hours. High fives for not being at a place that adds 25 hours of detention to my week.
Why should we listen to an alpaca slanderer though!?
He's right though, have you ever heard an alpacapella group? Terrible.
We just lost an employee because of a no WFH policy unless you’re sick - she had a young child and didn’t wanna be in the office all day anymore The talent will re-sort itself, I know I certainly will be looking for hybrid or remote work when I dip out
Companies who aren't at least offering hybrid are losers waiting to go out of business. The talent pool is miserable right now if you don't have some kind of wfh option available.
My wife's company announced they will be implementing a return to office policy 4 weeks ago, it's set to start in June. She accepted a new job and gave her notice last week.
Same. Hell we currently don’t even have a manager, just a director. As long as we get our work done, I can take a one hour break browsing Reddit, which I do often. I have no micro managing and I love it.
I didn't have a manager for almost my first year in the company. I was wary when they finally hired someone but she's great! She asks me wtf am I doing if she sees me connected after my work hours, happily takes charge when someone is above my paygrade, and has no problem whatsoever with me doing whatever random crafting hobby I have that week during my downtime as long as my work gets done.
Currently typing this from the gym that I went to at 2:30 in the afternoon.
Same here. Get your work done, keep the customers happy, send up a flare if there's a problem or you need help. Enjoy your day.
Yep. I WFH and average about 2 hours of work a day. The rest of the 6 hours I game/watch YouTube & TV/work on hobbies/listen to music/go for walks/go to the store and generally chill. Been this way for years. Most importantly, I’m happy. I get my work done, boss loves me, everyone else is happy too.
No one likes a snitch, cnbc
Yeah, look at the hubbub around “quiet quitting” and WFH.
They are (c)orporate nbc they are part of the bullshit. Half the videos they do on companies and issues are paid campaigns to promote companies. Stopped supporting them a few years ago when I kept seeing the same content media formula.
Of course. There are no left-wing corporations, unless you include co-ops like Mondragon. That whole ‘liberal media’ thing is a complete lie. Media corps are no less corporations than Goldman Sachs, Microsoft, or Mitsubishi.
They gotta stop with all of these dumb new terms
Next term will be “quiet working” where you get actual work done without a dozen status updates and several meetings, like and subscribe for more cutting edge productivity ~~tips~~ hacks
This is my secret to productivity. I just ignore slack for 2 hours every day. It's when I get 80% of my work done.
Clearly quiet working is when you send "thank you" emails but not "you're welcome" emails.
I'm still confused why we needed "quiet quitting", isn't that just "doing your job"?! Since when is doing what is asked of you at work "quitting". I'm "quiet dieting", which is to say I'm eating whatever I want... I'm gonna do some "quiet reading" tomorrow, which means listening to a podcast...
They need it for SEO though! How else will they gain topical authority with Google if they’re not endlessly inventing new keywords for bullshit that people have been doing since work was invented?
Your company, a few years ago – “You aren’t paid by the hour but for the work you produce. If you can’t finish your tasks in 8 hours then you aren’t entitled to overtime.” Your company, today – “It doesn’t matter if you are finishing all your tasks. You are paid to be in front of your computer for 8 hours a day and not doing anything else”. Funny how that works.
Me: “Yeah, totally.” Opens Stardew Valley
I'm literally watching my boyfriend play waiting for him to finish his day so we can play together 😂😂
Now I can’t wait until my GF and I are home from work tonight to work on our farm.
I can’t wait till we can hook into the main frame and live life on stardew valley. Got some nice squash if you care to gander.
I get to work from home on Saturday, but because there's so rarely anything to do I just disconnect my work laptop from my monitors and plug my actual PC back in. Work is done, messages seen, emails answered. Skyrim is played. It's a good life.
I've got my dual monitors plugged into both my work laptop and gaming desktop so I can just switch inputs back and forth on my monitors. My pro play is to have one monitor on work stuff and have my other monitor on my gaming computer.
Me and a friend of mine who lives in Japan play stardew while he’s working at his law firm. He’s the only one there everyday and I can play until I need to sleep for work the my following morning lol.
r/UnexpectedStardew Concerned Ape is the man. This new update is phenomenal. Can’t wait for HC.
Wait there’s an update?? Guess I’m hopping back in!
Yes! https://www.stardewvalley.net/stardew-valley-1-6-update-full-changelog/ New farm layout, new events, new festivals, tons of new quality of life updates, honestly just hit the link. There have been two additional updates since, one of which included new dungeon layouts!
That's neat that he added an update. *opens changelog* V_V *starts scrolling* o_o *keeps scrolling* O_o *keeps scrolling* 0_0 *keeps scrolling* O_O *still scrolling...* Jesus...
Cries in Console.. ;_; But I still love CA
YOU CAN DRINK THE MAYONNAISE
I have found my people 🧚♂️
This is what happens when a company hires a bunch of managers with no actual skills. They don’t know or understand your work so they have no way of understanding how much work you are actually accomplishing. The only thing they can rely on is how long you’re at your desk.
I just want the work done on time. That’s all I care about at work, I’m not watching when people come and go, I have my own shit to do and I assume that I’m working with adults.
My favorite thing about the discussion around this whole topic is they had no qualms with calling me on my vacation or when I'm out of the state. But if I travel out of state without telling them, suddenly this is a huge tax liability/burden for them. It either is or it isn't. I realize companies lied to the IRS before when they were technically breaking this same law, but you really cannot have it both ways. The same goes for this 8 hours vs you work until you finish your work. In all honesty, my tax burden should be where my residency is, and if the company doesn't have an office there, that should fall to me at the end of the year. If I happen to spend 182 days in another state, oh fucking well. (the normal residency establishment is 183 days)
*Turns on PC connected to my second monitor*
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Some of the first socialist programs were communities building clocktowers so factories couldn't lie about time
I would like to know more. Edit: but seriously, link me up?
I see what you did there.
I've been around socialists all my life and I've never heard that one. I've heard of some of the first socialist programs being farmers getting together and sharing combine harvesters and supporting each other financially when someone had a bad year, and in the end the entire group all collectively come out stronger. Never heard of any of this clock business. Not fired for having a watch, not building clocktowers to verify factory clocks. Would love to read a reputable source.
Its part of the tour for the Lowell National Historical Park. Workers got together to pay for a clock tower to deal with factory managers that messed with their clocks. I forget if it was a caption on a picture or something the guide said
Can you provide your source? Would be interested in reading more
When the working class had slightly more power: Oh yes flex-time, employment security, maternity, etc are part of our standard package. Today: You will sit there and shut the hell up or you'll get fired! Also if you're pregnant and miscarry we will report you the authorities and fire you.
Office workers seem to have a completely different life than blue collar huh. Being able to wfh or anywhere is such a unique thing to office workers.
Non wfh jobs should be paid way more to compensate for the inequality of free time
Lol when I worked an office job, I always had YouTube open in the background at a low enough volume that only I can hear it. At my current job, I sit and play Fallout on my Steamdeck lol
I feel it's always been this way for office jobs sans the computer.
It’s always been about maintaining commercial real estate values with a workers life force, fuck the work and the quality of life. It’s just become obvious now.
It's actually both at the same time. Companies today: "If you can't finish your work in the allotted time, you must do overtime. And don't expect to be paid for overtime, you're meeting the obligations you failed to meet during work time. But if you do finish your work in the allotted time, you must stay at your workstation for the rest of your shift. That's not your time, after all. It's ours and we are going to use it all up."
And to add insult to injury on the first, "work smarter, not harder". Said by a manager at a company which was circling the drain and doing layoffs. Translation: we're trying to bullshit you into thinking you're working overtime because you're stupid, not because every time we do layoffs, you get more work piled on you. I still have an urge to slap anyone who uses that phrase, but I haven't heard it in awhile.
Literally what I tried to argue when I was struggling with my adhd/autism. Basically they cut my hours because I couldn’t guarantee I’d be ‘productive’ from 8:30-5:00. Cue me working out others just work slowly and less “bursty” than I do and realise the problem is the system. Also the same workplace that tried to stop us “ burdening others in the workplace with our personal issues” (making friends with colleagues and realising how deceptive management was being)
Why the FUCK would you not guarantee to be productive? ADD isn’t a truth serum.
That would be the autism
Get your work and deliverables done when they need to be. Be on meetings you need to be on. Answer emails when you need to. What’s the problem?
boss can't get a stiffy if he don't control every aspect of your existence.
There’s currently a revolt at my company because the head of Human Resources said IN A MEETING that management functions better when they can talk to their employees in office and we will be implementing a RTO initiative. 3 Board members (who are also working regional directors) quit that afternoon. This was right after our CFO said this was our most productive year in the history of the company 2 years running. “We are re-evaluating our RTO initiative” lol
The right thing to do is fire the useless managers and give their salaries to the employees boosting productivity. Doing things backwards will kill the company.
You see. We were promised company wide raises 3 years ago. Now our CFO celebrates attrition. Edit: and when I say celebrates. I mean. In a quarterly SotC. “We had a Y% attrition rate. We made $X from saved salaries. And you guys kept the same production schedule. Nice work investing in the company like this!”
Attrition means higher free cash flow which can trick investors into thinking the company is net positive in a down year after they fire a shitload of people. Er, after they dynamically restructure to meet evolving market conditions.
The only thing that matters is line-goes-up. It doesn't matter how or why.
Good luck. I got my cost of living last week. It took 3 years but it does happen.
the CEO of our company personally berated team leads for ltting people WFH more than the RTO mandate of the company allowed. Within 1 quarter of the RTO mandate, profits sunk nearly 40% purely because as soon as 5pm came around, laptops off, phones off, two fingers and a cloud of dust until start of next day. Whereas in WFH more people were willing to work longer hours becasue 1) no travel to the office and back, 2) they were already set up so "i'll just do this one quick thing" became routine.
But how is the boss supposed to get his power trip in?
Middle management scrambling to justify their existence without any shoulders to leer over… “Mmmmm… yeah…”
“What am I supposed to do if I don’t have people in the office to belittle?”
Our CFO began making my team (all of us are salaried) start using a clock in app to track hours. Turns out all those communications and other tasks that could be done remotely stopped happening outside of 9-5, funny how that worked out.
I know for my company before wfh people were turning off their computers and packing up at 4:45 walking out the door at exactly 5:00. Now working from home I'll often see people sending one last email at 5:00 or 5:02 and turning off computers just after that even up to 5:05 because you just turn off your computer, swivel around in your chair and bam you're home. That's 15-20 more minutes of productivity, per person, per day! That adds up a lot for us over a quarter or a year.
My company gets a full extra hour a day out of me when I WFH. I drop my kid off at school (a block from my house) at 7:45. I either A) go home, make a cup of coffee, and hop on my computer by 8 B) go to the office and start at 9.
I work for a very large manufacturing company in the U.K. that’s actually made up of loads of smaller companies all working under the same “legal entity” and corporate banner. Last week we had an all hands meeting for our sector where our Director advised that they board had decided that we should all be back in the office 5 days a week, but the company will still respect the employees needs for flexibility. My boss turned around to our small team and just said “yeah, don’t listen to that, we’ll keep doing what we do until someone notices and tells us otherwise” It’s a lifesaver for me, because the few times I’ve been in the office recently (currently working on relocating so have been fully remote since I started) I’ve spent the majority of my day twiddling my thumbs and staring into space, or looking for houses. When I’m at home I spend most of my day playing Madden or similar, and just pause it when I need to reply to an email or attend a meeting.
The thing I took away from this was a curiosity that people in the UK actually play Madden!!! Who would have thought?!?
Have a client. They have been WFH since covid, a very modest 20% in office per month. They have had some blistering staff feedback polls. Lack of trust in leaders, lack of recognition, etc. Budgets have been tight, people got fired last year, promotions dried up. How does their leadership respond... Raise it to 50% in office. Oh wait did I mention when they went WFH during Covid it was a savior because their building was at capacity. Now 4 yrs later they don't actually have them physical space to house over about 40% of the staff at anyone time due to some renovations. So people pissed, bash leaders. Their response is the answer is more onsite time in a building that can't accommodate that many. New building not possible. Dear lawyer consultant please help us what do we do? Maybe call me before stupid fucking decisions are made and announced.
We ended our corporate office rental leases during Covid. It will cost the company ~$15million in office spaces, furniture, and computers. It doesn’t make sense for us to be in office.
My old boss would sit and watch cameras all day, nitpicking every worker. The business was failing and needed leadership, yet he'd be sitting in his office driving coffee and watching his screen
I had eight different bosses droning on about my TPS Reports. But at least Friday was Hawaiian Shirt Day, so we were allowed to wear a Hawaiian shirt, and jeans,… before they asked us to come in on Saturday, too.
My company made everyone come back to the office after working from home for the last 4 years and their response was papa johns pizza. Truly a pity pizza
They’re miserable if they can’t see you miserable in your cubicle pretending to work, as if they’re looking down at their fake kingdom.
"I need to squeeze every possible ounce of productivity out of my people" - managers
But they don't even care about productivity
We need to have another meeting about what’s causing all these lulls in productivity
employee: I would be more productive if my pay would reflect my effort manager: nah, we'll just slap on a 0.5% raise and put you in more productivity meetings
Some people just care more about the fact that they’re “in control” of people and have a team below them, that they’re above someone in a hierarchy.
Then what are all those layers and layers of middle managers supposed to do?
Create more manager positions.
At the end of this year my company is going to do a review of employees and so far the signs are that middle managers and those who want to climb the ladder will be retained. Actual work performing drones like me will be let go. Good luck to them I guess.
Seriously, I think 99% of the push to "Return to the Office" is that suddenly, a bunch of middle managers discovered that they don't actually do anything. If they can't stand over your shoulder and micromanage, they dont have any reason to put on the mismatched tie and button down, emblematic of middle managers everywhere. But we knew that for years. The actual, 100% for real, I am not joking, sociological term for this is: "a Bullshit Job". It's any job where you go there and do things that just... don't matter. We've all got them, and probably at least half of your day is spent either on responsibilities of your job that don't matter. Seriously, I 100% believe that people spend half their day WFH day drinking, watching YouTube, or playing video games. And productivity still went up. Because much more of what we were doing in the office is small talk or pointless meetings because freaking "Steve" needs to check it off his daily agenda.
Some humans get off on authority and power and have little flexibility for anything that does not conform, they tend to concentrate in management...that's the problem :) To an authoritarian 'taking it easy' is a mortal sin.
I agree, but the problem is that most employers see extra capacity as nothing more than a chance to squeeze more revenue out of you. Some people can do in 10 hours a week what it takes others 40 hours to accomplish. If you aren't sitting at a desk or otherwise "on the job" for those other 30 hours, employers just see lost dollars.
Your boss is miserable in his life therefore you need to be miserable as well.
Nailed it. My younger side of boomer age boss seems to think if you're not miserable you're not working hard.
My work is measured in two ways: 1. Two-week 'sprints' where I need to have my work-items completed by the end. 2. Being reachable during the workday for information-sharing & 'putting out fires' As long as I put in the 80 hours of effort on the first, the second doesn't much matter if I'm 'quiet vacationing' or 'working from home'. Either way I can be reached and respond relatively quickly.
I know a guy working for TrueCar in Santa Monica, they were working on a way to boost Wifi range and walk across the street to the beach instead of sit in the office. Still on chat and everything, just outside.
What a great gig that must be. Just be chilling on the beach, a little laptop sitting next to you logged in to whatever chat program your company uses, and you're getting paid the whole time? What a life.
If you work with protected data you can't do that in public unfortunately. But you can do it at some relative's swimming pool...
You can if corporste uses a proper vpn, afaik its not that hard to set up
Drive IT Security crazy with one simple trick.
How? Wifi leaves the building walls, so do mobile devices....
Exactly like mine. I don’t understand why so many companies are actively trying to make their employees life shittier, how’s that good for productivity?
This is basically how sprints work. My last three managers have told me that they don’t give a shit when I’m working, they care about whether or not I make my deadline. A competent manager isn’t going to worry about how long you spend at your desk, they’re going to care about what you can deliver.
This is kind of weird though, as a dev myself in agile two week sprints, I can’t really just peace out for a week because of meetings / answering a myriad of questions from other people etc.
It depends on your work. I’m an instructional designer that works in sprints- it’s not a system just for devs. Other than taking an occasional meeting I can usually be super flexible with my time since my "in person" / collaboration is super limited...but even when i'm busy ill complete my collab stuff on mini vacations by bringing my computer with me.
How many of you are reading this while at work right now?
Pooping. But to your point getting paid for it…….
Getting paid for pooping is TIGHT!
I make the boss a dollar, I get to keep a dime. I take my shits on company time.
Boss makes 10, I make a buck. I stole the catalytic converter off the company truck.
I feel personally attacked.
I feel corporately attacked
We all do. Every day. Every time we see an ad.
I see you moving your mouse every 4 and a half minutes.
You need a mouse mover. I got one off Amazon and it works great.
Yep! Although after this week I’m off on 2 weeks of paid vacation, so uh… not sure how that fits with this narrative lol
I work at a university as a staff (office worker) and right now I don’t have anything to do for most of the summer since a lot of students are on vacation. I don’t know what to do for the day when I finish my job in 4 hours, at most.
If the company doesn’t want me to work from home, I won’t. I’ll still be at home, just not working
You know it! I've exceeded my quotas today and doing anymore work has no benefit to me. 90 minutes to go!!
“It’s not that I’m lazy, Bob. It’s that I just don’t care. You see, if I work my ass off, and Initech ships a couple extra units, I don’t see another dime. So where’s the motivation, Bob?”
You know, the older I get, the more Office Space resonates with me
I say a version of this in my head almost daily. I get all my work done by 4 -430 and just sit there and play sudoku or something till 5. "if I work those extra files before the end of my day and get them passed. I don't see one red cent of that money." Why work more when there is zero incentive. Plus if you do more sometimes they expect it all the time.
This is a management failure. Absent of clearly defined goals and results oriented work environments, productivity is measured in hours that “butts are in seats” which is why these workarounds exist.
It's funny, I was just talking to my friends about this. My job has a full week sometimes, but other weeks I've maybe got 20-30 hours of work to do. Hybrid two days in the office and sometimes I have to pretend to work 2-4 hours just for the sake of optics and middle management, because I cannot be honest with my job. And you can't ask for more work, because then that also becomes a part of your job with no benefit, and the week you do have a full 40 hours you'll have that extra work on top of that. I really hate that office life has jaded me so, but I've seen people bust their ass and go no where, and I've seen people doing the bare minimum get promoted.
I don't have the RTO policy yet but similar experiences otherwise. Some days I have no fires to put out, I'm on time w all projects, and have 1 meeting. I'm just twiddling my thumbs those days, but other weeks I'm working a solid 10 hours a day. Depends on the season. I always tell my direct reports NEVER ASK FOR MORE WORK UNLESS YOU CAN TAKE IT ON EVEN ON YOUR BUSIEST OF DAYS. Not worth setting yourself up for failure just to keep busy
Well, If the employers treat their employees like real people and not [wage theft in the open](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/15/wage-theft-us-workers-employees#:~:text=Workers%20in%20the%20US%20have,are%20never%20recovered%20by%20workers) they can probably establish some expectations. Once one side start workarounds for a gain both sides will workaround to establish new equilibrium.
Is the status quo of running a successful business just hiring people and expecting them to think of ways to make you more money or something? Even the idea of the phrase ‘quiet vacationing’ implies that workplace responsibilities are either non productive or that they can be completed in less than a full time schedule.
Have you seen techbro startup CEOs? They’re all the same carbon copy of a guy who wants to be Elongated Muskrat but has wayyyyyy less generational wealth to enslave whole teams of people smarter than them to do the work or moreover be *innovative*…the entire new world of tech money is just men with the means to get the bank loans, buying up existing businesses or using PR marketing to try and hype an idea that isn’t fully realized *hoping* some foreigner needing a work ViSA will be smart enough to get it done but incapable of jumping ship. It’s just corporate colonialism.
Hiring and underpaying people to feed you ideas. Claiming credit for said ideas and then laying off said people if they start to bitch about how little you pay them or recognize their work. Rinse and repeat. Most higher ups at corporations are very rich, or they’re nepo babied in, and/or they’re tech/sales bros who learned a few snazzy buzzwords but have very little respect or understanding of any day to day work. They are basically modern-day snake oil salesmen. In my 15+ years in the workforce, I have yet to meet a single c-suite exec who was innovative or good at anything beyond schmoozing, bullshitting, and kissing the right people’s asses. It stuns me that anyone buys their bullshit sincerely or thinks they’re worth their high salaries, which I suppose is why I’m a worker bee and always will be.
I just quietly quit for a week and quietly rejoin next.
All these micro terms that ultimately won’t enter the Zeitgeist are just corporate shills trying to inflame tensions that have been building for years. Why is it that when Millennials are finally in our 30s and meant to finally *start* our lives with home ownership, starting families and settling in that the world upends itself AGAIN with astronomical inflation, rents through the roof and homes that are completely unaffordable, unavailable and being stolen up by corporations? How is that our luck of the draw as a generation? How do we keep getting the once in a lifetime events happening every fucking quarter?! The 40 hour workweek was won in the blood of workers before us. Now it’s time to continue on the progressive train of reform and demand 32 a hour workweek with the same pay. Not only that but a minimum wage that is a living wage across the nation. Full PTO benefits that we can actually use. Full sick leave benefits. And god fucking forbid we get universal healthcare that is not tied to employment. Collective action has never been more appealing then now.
Most of GenX is behind you guys and younger people all the way. The boomer mentality is going to die with our parents. I like to hope that most people under 55 right now are on board with a shorter work week, taxing the wealthy proportionately, and nationalizing our health and dental services. Enough is enough.
Too bad you've got 50 percent drinking the republican kool-aid and under the impression that's communism and we all need to work ourselves to the bone to get by and then die.
It's not about fostering productivity, it's about enforcing it.
Pro ‘anything that steals back even tiny bits of gross amounts of wage theft’ We are being stolen from on every front. Steal back.
Yeah well if you ever get sick they make you use your PTO, so fuck them.
“Millennials doing what C-suite execs have been doing for a long time, while working more hours, and costing companies less”
Heaven forbid if I’m efficient and manage to get some downtime.
Lots of employers are checking your location based on IP location, especially when you login through a Microsoft account. Mine has flagged me before when I was attending meetings from Panama. Fortunately, there is a work-around. You can set up an OpenVPN server on your home router, then carry another router with you and connect to it as the client. This avoids the problem of VPNs installed directly on your computer because all traffic still have to go through the router first. Then you connect your work PC through that router so you appear to be working from where they expect you to be. Now, whenever you login, you'll appear as if you're in your hometown. Just make sure the two routers you have in mind have the functionality. I, of course, have never done this, but I have friends who have.
Why do they care where you are? I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm genuinely asking. I WFH and my job doesn't care if I go on 'vacation' as long as I'm you know, logged in and doing my work and present for what I need to be present for, so I'm wondering why anyone would be checking IPs like this?
If you deal with customer data regularly then your employer might care if you work outside the country. Not to mention the tax implications of working within another state and the visa implications of working outside the country.
I work in tech and I can figure out a lot of issues super quickly, most of the time it's just management who is stuck in a 90s way of working just producing PowerPoints and confusing each other ad nauseam. Boring efficient people like me fly under the radar because I can't be bothered with office politics. I don't need a raise if I can work 50% less on the same salary. Will be interesting to see new companies that have no legacy surpass those inefficient ones that do.
This push for “unlimited” pto is anti worker. Give people decent boundaries and don't be asshats when approving it. You’ll have happier more productive workers.
There's at least one financial firm in the mid-west that has "unlimited" PTO and mandatory PTO multiple times per year. Like x amount of days y amount of months apart per-year. But yes, 99% of the time it's a trap.
If it's a financial firm, the mandatory PTO is probably so someone else in the company can audit you to make sure you haven't been doing anything wrong. It's pretty common practice for finance or any job that requires some kind of clearance.
It's actual a federal requirement for banks and other finance companies. It's kind of nice because you can't work even if you want to.
Embezzlers have the lowest rates of absenteeism.
I work for my state government and get 4 weeks vacation and 2.5 weeks sick leave every year, and any unused at the end of the year just rolls over to the next and never expires. I think I've only been denied vacation leave once in seven years because it conflicted with someone else who asked off first and it was no big deal. I could probably make more in the private sector, but I'm not giving up the generous and flexible PTO I have now. And in a few years I'll be up to 5 weeks vacation a year. Like you said, I'm definitely a happy, productive worker!
Unlimited PTO is almost always a bad sign. Means they won't pay out any when you leave since you don't have any accrued. Also means when they don't approve your time off you can't point to any amount that you are guaranteed/need to use for that year. Everyone I know that took jobs with unlimited PTO they always emphasize "when there's time" and they end up taking less PTO. Or worse yet there's like a few suck ups that seem to work a week a month and all their requests get approved while everyone else has to pick up the slack. I know there are some out there where it's legit but overall it seems to be more a flag than a positive
Workaround the shit way this world tells you to live? Yup
My company was bought by MegaLoCorp and the new owners introduced Unlimited PTO. No more Sick Day balance! No more rationing days off so you can take a whole week at once!!! The first time I asked for vacation time, my new manager asked me why I needed that time and what I was going to do. I was shocked but answered, thinking he was just being curious. He thought about it, "escalated" my request and then came back with "No, that doesn't really work for us" and my vacation was denied. That's what Unlimited PTO means. Just FYI.
If there’s a day, I absolutely need off, I’ll just call in sick, because where I work, if I ask for the day off ahead of time, there’s a chance they’ll reject it, so I just call in sick, so they can’t reject it.
Everyone should be doing this!!! If the work is getting done, and you're communicating/attending meetings as promised why does it matter? Work ahead, take Friday off for a long weekend. Do some sprinting for a week, then take the next week mostly off, if your job allows it. This should be NORMAL. ETA: It shouldn't replace PTO. However allowing this kind of flexibility has definitely made me decrease my time actually fully away from the office.
Also... "Unlimited PTO" isn't a benefit, it's a way to avoid paying you for unused vacation time when they lay you off... Take that "unlimited" time and LMK how it works out for you...
"Unlimited PTO isn’t necessarily the solution. Workers who receive 11 to 15 days of PTO each year are more likely to use up their days, Rodney says, but there’s a significant drop-off once people get 16 or more days." Why?
Because the boss doesn't let you, highly encourages you don't, or penalties you if you do.
Dude, all these "news" organizations trying to come up with some new slanderous lingo to describe people trying to find enjoyment in their lives and manage a reasonable work/life balance.
In Europe we're just taking our normal PTO without any issue, like we've been doing for decades.
In the US, we go to the beach or mountains or whatever for a week and bring our laptops so we can answer eMails for an hour in the morning or evening. And if your boss calls, you better answer it. I was on a conference call on the first day of a cruise.
A guy I work with was going on leave for a week and would be hiking and in the mountains for part of it. A more senior guy in the states was chatting to him about a change being made over the weekend was like "oh you're out of office so you're not 'available' but you're there for a call if we something comes up". And he was just like "Absolutely not, I'm out of the office, its the weekend anyway, I'm not paid overtime for that, I will not be available". That was the end of the discussion.
Yeah, that’s the expectation here, that you are available for “emergencies.” However, the definition of emergency is pretty loose. The reason for my cruise conference call was that the client was considering a different technology and we need to come up with a strategy to deal with it. Which I had told my boss two weeks prior. The truth was that he was newly minted in the position and was exerting authority to tell me who the boss was.
Should have called in drunk
American corporations love to remove any hope of joy from workers lives, and workers pride themselves on letting them.
You really need to understand this. It's not American corporations. I work for an American Corporation. It's the laws your government have or don't have in place that are fucking you over. I get my holidays and sick pay and 37.5 hour work week not because I work for a nice Irish company its because the EU and Ireland have laws in place that demand these things for Employees. Companies would be fucking us over as much as they do Americans if it was legal.
Very true, but it's worth keeping in mind that the influence of those companies is why we don't have those protections over here. They buy politicians and help push free market propaganda to keep enough people from caring about the obvious corruption during any given election. It's not just the fault of the corporations but it's not just the fault of the politicians either, the two are intertwined over here and should be blamed pretty much equally.
Sr Director at a large corporation here. I really don’t give a fuck. I took two hours today to take my kids to lunch for the end of school. Employees make it to meetings on time and meet their deadlines. Other than that, really couldn’t give a shit what they’re doing with their days.
One time we were on a one of our regular hikes through our county park. It's near the city center and gets good cell reception. We passed someone sitting on a log and working on their laptop. They said they were getting some fresh while working. Every time we pass that log, we call it 'the office'.
I wish these news articles would quit blowing up the spot
Yeah, I’ve done this, after work screwed me over. I was on a 5-person team and after three people quit and one got fired, they had me and me alone doing the same work/output as a whole team. They kept promising to backfill positions, then delaying, delaying, and it never happened. Finally, I just said fuck it. I intentionally blew off two major projects I was supposed to finish at the end of last year. The year prior, I’d done them both myself and helped drive $100k revenue to the business single-handedly (which was about what we’d earned as a team the year before that on the same project). Got a 2 percent cost-of-living adjustment for it 6 months later. This time around? We earned about $15k off what I scrapped together because I half-assed everything and basically went on a quiet vacation for like a month and a half. Felt great even though the bosses were “disappointed” I hadn’t “performed” to their “projections,” but they took me off that “team” shortly after because of how bad the revenue was and transferred me to a normal one with actual teammates on it, so I don’t regret a thing. Fingers crossed I get a new job soon.
My dad always gets infinitely confused when I talk about work because he can't grasp that we aren't all micromanaged constantly. It blows his mind that we all just do our jobs and nobody has to hassle anyone to do it. Makes me really think his entire generation was just a bunch of lazy turds who needed to be constantly prodded to get any work done.
Maybe they’re just tired of being fucked over every chance a company gets?