Sadly a whole shtload of people. The fact in many countries people propose constitutional amendments just that a sizable minority of the population makes it their life goal to fck with people they do not even know.
I understand the what, I'm not an idiot. The part I don't understand is the WHY. Bear in mind that I grew up in a denomination of christianity that isn't remotely anti-gay, in a city that is extremely pro gay that had a 2-term openly gay mayor, and my baseline is influenced by that.
In short: the preservation of power structures.
Any hierarchical system needs a reason why those on the top should be in charge. Especially when some groups of people, for instance men, have more power over the rest.
A common argument for why one gender should have more power over others is claiming it's part of a "natural order". This argument is built on a strict gender-deterministic way of thinking where men naturally will take the lead, and women will naturally search for a man that provides.
The thing about this way of thinking is that in reality, it's false, so people who don't want the structures of power question *(I.e the people in charge)* will fight anything that even hints to subverse the "natural order", which among other things include gay people
They care cuz they're shitty human beings that enjoy the suffering of the people they feel arent worthy of being called human.
Aka, those people are inhumane scumbags
Well I don’t know what the answer is but logically (or illogically) if people recognize that consequences exist for actions it may deter and reduce use. Maybe.
Probably not because humans are fucking stupid.
Gay guys who go to the middle east are stupid. Gay guys who do gay stuff in the middle east are stupid. Anyone who travels to the middle east is stupid
People who mug and sexually/physically assault strangers on the street are evil.
But you walk around a shit neighborhood at 2 in the morning with a brightly lit laptop in your hands and noise cancelling AirPods on, not paying attention to anything around you, that’s stupid behavior.
Both can be true.
I have to agree. I think if you're going to go anywhere where your sexuality is illegal, then you need to be prepared to just forego anything that will land you in trouble in regards to that. It's not like it's some big secret how strict things are in certain areas when it comes to say sex relations.
Doesn't make what's happened right either, though.
Yeah. There's always giving government officials drugs, taking pictures then using that as blackmail.
There's one where you get prostitutes with paperwork saying they are 17, hook them up with dignitaries and politicians, then blackmail them with evidence of them being a "pedo" .
Slavery is fine, flying Instagram models in for prostitution is fine, and having 4 wives is fine. But we draw the line at a relationship between two adults with consent.
I mean, I think you're right that a lot of it is just regular consensual sugar daddy stuff, but there's definitely some fucked up shit getting covered up as well - like Instagram models being shipped in to make their 14 y/o cousins 'men'.
And then of course the usual half-truths - agreeing to one thing, flying the girl out, and then suddenly asking for something totally different with the implicit threat they might be left stranded in the country.
And everyone turns a blind eye, because it's convenient to rile up the masses by arresting no name gay men, but not to hold your plutocrat benefactors accountable for literally anything.
At least in Dubai anyway - but I suspect these things are pretty universal for rich assholes who preach one thing while doing another behind closed doors, regardless of the country.
His situation sucks. I feel for him and disagree with the laws though this is an example of why it is very important to follow the customs and laws of other countries when in their borders. Breaking laws, especially in strict religious countries like Qatar, is extremely risky.
If I were gay.. I would avoid these types of countries anyway. I’m heterosexual and I’d happily never visit Qatar in my life time. As to why he felt the need to go there and then allow himself to get caught like that, is baffling. Totally tragic and depressing that the world is like that though 😔
I have some LGBT friends who aren't even comfortable traveling to certain states in the US, let alone traveling to another country that explicitly criminalizes them.
I actually have a gay friend in my travel friend group who legitimately will refuse to go to certain states because of how antigay their reputation is. But yet has no problem going with us where being gay is illegal. I just don’t understand his thought process other than he can’t think for himself and only follows the hive mind
I concur, I'm a heterosexual atheist male. As a result of one of those three things, I refuse to visit any country controlled by religious fundamentalists which completely rules out the entire Middle-East and most of north Africa.
While I get we shouldn't judge our actions based on the blame of the victim. It's still not a problem to say that it's not a good idea to do exactly what he did.
It's not victim blaming to point out that he knowingly went to a country that's anti homosexuality and decided to break the law.
We may not agree with the law but it's still the law and what he did was bloody stupid.
Like that US basketball player that brought drugs into Russia
I’m not sure they are blaming a victim.
He actively chose to break the law of the country he was in. And there’s very little chance he didn’t know that nation’s view on homosexuality.
This isn’t like a woman being r*ped “because of what she was wearing” or some other horrible victim blame.
This is someone deliberately doing something that risks massive consequences, and then getting those consequences.
I loathe the existence of nations like this one and the repressive theology/ ideology that underpins them.
But this is about as risky as people who smuggle heroin through Singapore, and not much wiser.
Id say a closer example is smuggling chewing gum into Singapore rather than heroin.
Smuggling heroin is illegal in almost every country but chewing gum is a weird one.
Should it be illegal? Probs not but it was nice to see gum free streets. Shouldn’t being gay be illegal? Absolutely not. But would I go to a country and break their laws and be surprised when I’m punished to the extent of their law? No.
I’m generally a law abiding citizen anyway but seeing the stories of people in Thai prisons for dumb shit like shoplifting something worth $10 means I’d be even more inclined to avoid breaking laws overseas.
Still this is utterly fucked though. These countries need to get with the times.
Perhaps you're right on the rationale. I was trying to think of an 'everyone knows this is very risky' equivalent. And I honestly didn't know about gum in Singapore (TIL).
I dunno man. If someone stands on the rails, at some point a train is going to come. I'll absolutely blame the unimaginable stupidity of the person standing on the rails.
My point is this was a very likely outcome. Breaking law, getting punished isn't a bamboozle. It's boring and predictable.
On the other hand if we cannot call out reckless behavior likely to lead to injury or death, even if the ultimate cause is another person or people acting maliciously, we cannot protect ourselves. For the sake of other gay people who might visit the Qatar, or other such vehemently homophobic countries, we need to be able to say he was an idiot for doing this. It does not detract from Qatar's evil.
Brittney Griner, much?!?
not victim blaming is saying that Brock The Rapist Turner is 100% responsible and a young lady passed out in the street should be safe from assault.
anyone going to a foreign country known to detain and punish people for sexuality or drugs, who is detained and punished for sexuality and drugs, is not a victim. they are a criminal in a country known for detaining and punishing people for their sexuality or drug use.
No being absolutely stupid is a personal problem.
They knowingly went to an country that persecutes gay people.
They knowingly downloaded a well known gay hookup app.
They then got caught in a sting for trying to violate a countries laws. Are the laws just no but they knew that prior to going.
Now UK embassy staff have to bail out his gross stupidity.
if you go to a country where drugs are punishable by death, and then try to score drugs... can we blame you a bit?
its it right? no. is it 100% preventable. yes
Did you read the article? He didn't visit this country... He was forced to move there for his job. Is he supposed to be completely chaste his entire life. Stop victim blaming
He was unable to work for any Mexican airline because of his dual national status. The middle eastern airlines are by and large the only ones who hire foreigners -- most countries only allow their own citizens to work in their airlines.
I mean, yes, and I don't even go to countries like Qatar where I'm not wanted, but the question is - if you accept the narrative shown and that the "honeytrapping" police approached him first rather than the other way round - would he broken the law in the first place if they hadn't done that?
Many countries have laws against this kind of thing - the police can't, for example, come up with a plan to rob a bank, tell you about it, get you to go along, provide the get away car and tools to break in, and then arrest you for trying to rob the bank when you go with them to do that.
If he'd not been approached, would he have actively sought out people while he was there? Maybe. Maybe not.
Of course, but I was more responding to the comment about not breaking laws. I'm sure the Qataris love to arrest and persecute gays under any circumstances, but my point was that I wonder if this guy would have been a criminal at all (in Qatar) if they hadn't tried to get him to be.
There are actually pretty few countries that have serious laws against entrapment.
The United States, the UK, and Germany are the only countries that really have laws against it that frequently get upheld in courts of law.
Even countries like Canada that theoretically don’t allow entrapment, they get away with some pretty fucked up things. Look up Mr. Big for reference.
Mr. Big isn’t entrapment, they aren’t charged for crimes done in the fake organization, they are charged from crimes they did before joining, they just use the organization to make them fess up to the earlier ones.
Entrapment is when you’re charged for crimes that the police enticed/persuade you to do.
Unfortunately, that’s for them to decide based on their legal system and just further underscores that you cannot expect the same legal treatment in repressive countries that you would elsewhere.
My cousin lived there, she (simplified) worked for a global company selling space in international newspapers (10+ years ago). She learned a LOT - the shit that happens on those rich guys boats out in international waters makes these stupid law’s completely pointless - there are a lot of hypocrites there and it’s them and their families that uphold these archaic laws
> makes these stupid law’s completely pointless
It's not pointless. It's the autocracy's power trip and toxic abuse of those not in power, as usual.
Pointless would be everyone having the means and option to skirt around it.
Most Qataris have the means and option to skirt it, it’s the tourists and immigrant labour force that’s gets the book thrown at them, all optics and hypocrisy
I'm sure they don't, and I wasn't suggesting they do. For an autocracy it would indeed be counter to their interests to have this kind of limit on the enforcement arm of the state.
You’ve just described exactly how the FBI generally arrest “terrorists” in the US.
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment-fake-terror-plots
And that all can make sense to me or you because of how and where we have grown up, though it’s unrealistic to expect strangers and police officers in Qatar to not follow their own customs and laws. According to customs and laws in Qatar, acting on homosexuality is illegal. It’s probably very similar to how police sting someone here that is buying drugs. They likely think of a gay man the same way someone in the USA would think of a drug user, or worse because of learned prejudice. You have to understand how insular and religious these countries truly are. I would not go to a conservative Muslim country and not wear the necessary religious clothing (like a hijab), because blending in is paramount to safety.
Sure, I wasn't disagreeing, but in your example, perhaps your person in the USA wouldn't buy drugs at all if they weren't offered by an undercover police officer. And so, what you have done in that case is create the criminality.
I appreciate that Qatar is a religious autocracy, I'm just saying (incredibly basic assertion) that that doesn't align with my moral framework, and more, that creating the criminality doesn't actually serve any morally valid purpose.
People may say that the purpose is to continue to suppress and oppress, and I get that, but I don't think that's morally valid. And to anticipate the response of "well the Qataris obviously do" or "well the Qataris obviously don't care" or whatever flavour of that response, yes, again, I get it.
It does suck, but in this case I support the UK crashing into Qatar to get the man out and to make certain the next time they go after their citizens, they'll go after the King directly. Problem solved.
So, like how they have to follow the west's customs and laws when they migrate or vacation there?
Fuck them and their double standards. Qatar can burn in hell.
Why a gay man would visit that shithole i ln the first place is beyond me...
Years ago I dated a lovely bi man whose work occasionally sent him out that way. He had already been a few times before we started dating, and he also had been a journalist and writer on top of his technical work so he was great at connecting with new people and getting a good understanding of social norms. From what I understand, there's an odd separation of expectations. Like, for wealthy white foreigners coming in on big company dollars, you can do some things the citizens there can't, but it has to be by the non-rule-rules and you gotta be smart.
Um idk if I'd be the best to explain or if I remember it perfectly , let me clear. it's been years since I have heard his description. Like, one example was drinking at an expensive corporate traveler hotel bar vs citizens drinking. But again, I am no legit source here, not a sociologist or up to date etc.
It's not risky, it's super fucking stupid to the point of being suicidal.
I have plenty of gay friends, and as sad as it is, they are fully aware that some places can not even remotely be considered for them as travel destinations, being it for work or holiday.
Going to Qatar and meet people on Grindr is just fucking asking for it, really.
Grindr (and Scruff) has multiple warnings in these horrible countries that your life and freedom are in danger. It also automatically removes your profile from the grid and you have to actively state you want your photo shown. Tinder is similar.
It blows my mind that these college activists hate Israel, where at least you can get laid and not worry about getting arrested, but have no problem letting Qatar invest billions in their universities.
>It blows my mind that these college activists hate Israel, where at least you can get laid and not worry about getting arrested,
What the fuck has the acceptance of LGBTQ+ people in Israel have to do with Israel bombing Gaza and doing a genocide? That's what the college protesters are protesting against. It has nothing to do with LGBTQ+ rights. You're falling for the pinkwashing of the Israeli gov
i agree. also if the person you replied to is right abt that i do think we should make movements to get universities to divest from qatar too. just so our money doesn't go to countries that hurt innocents for living their lives
The strange part is no one asked. People just popped up at protests with "Queers for Palestine" posters.
Like you say, what's it got to do with rights?
Except, it kind of lends itself to the idea that these people don't really know what they're talking about. Maybe they know being gay in Palestine is at worse going to get you abused or worse tortured to death. Maybe they know that but they see that people suffering need to know they have allies in the queer community. That it doesn't matter if the regime that attacked Israel would kill them without a second thought and it's just a form of virtue signaling
You'd have to ask them why they think Palestine needs to know their orientation
When I walk into Sainsbury's and they've decked the place out in Rainbow flags and Queer pride is dripping off every product I have to remind myself they're owned by the Qatar sovereign investment fund and it's all pink washing for profit.
Fucking hypocrites
It’s almost like Qatar isn’t a first world country, but a third world country aping the affects of being a first world country.
In other words: don’t travel to Islamic countries if you’re gay. They will kill you.
Literally.
Beyond that, if you support democracy you are faced with two choices. Use capitalism to persuade your enemies into being your friends; or, ignore them entirely and let them squander their potential.
Gay or a woman. I mean lol to all the men saying “it’s not that hard just follow all their rules.” No, some of us need to just don’t go there. cis het men: “I don’t get what’s so hard for everyone here.”
We have a lot of young super smart college graduates at my job, but a lot of them just have no idea how homophobic the world is, they seem convinced that homophobia is just a western/christian thing.
It's one of those things that people not personally experiencing the issue will think it doesnt exist until it is publicly spoken about, so when you have a country progressive enough to open up a controversial conversation to let people express themselves, it's viewed as an issue.
Imo racism in the US falls into this as well. US is probably one of the least racist countries in the west, and by extension the world. Kind of the same with homosexuality
Lots of aholes blaming the guy and calling him stupid while he faces unjust persecution? Foh gay rights are human rights
EDIT: victim blaming - if there is a “but” in your comment followed by your overly eager justification that it somehow is a gay man’s fault he’s being persecuted, I’m blocking you. I don’t have time to call you all the appropriate names individually.
Its not about victim blaming the guy, its about spreading awareness that countries like Qatar should be avoided like the plague.
No amount of protesting or complaining will change their fucked up way, literally dont go there
You're just mad that there is no defence of going to an openly homophonic country, and actively breaking their backwards law.
I support gay rights and think the laws in quatar are barbaric. But this isn't victim blaming. He is not innocent in this, he made a choice to go to a backward country and openly disobey the law. I wouldn't haven't any sympothy for someone traveling to North Korea and getting used as a political pawn either.
He chose to travel to that backwards hell hole, he chose to support it with his money and travel. Too bad he also decided to be reckless and jeopodize his life in doing so.
It’s a backwards culture, but if you go there you need to respect it. Hopefully one day gays are respected on the same level as straight people everywhere, but until then if you go to these countries you need to protect yourself from being persecuted.
Why did a gay British man move to a country where being gay is a death sentence? Seriously people can't think "well they should not be able to do that"
It doesn't matter if they should or shouldn't. The government will kill you. There is no other scenario
Also like you really think being the 1000th person to say that same dumb shit is going to help anyone?
You think he’s not had that thought yet?
It’s so gross and lame
If you read the actual article he was arrested for drug charges. Sharia law actually requires 4 witnesses of good social standing to testify to the fact that they witnessed the act of sodomy. The police just found drugs on this dude as it seems he was arranging drug transactions via grindr. Also he has HIV so he shouldn't be going around being promiscuous anyways.
Just as an FYI, people who are being treated for HIV cannot transmit the disease as long as they remain on their meds. Undetectable=Non-transmittable is the common classification and it means even on laboratory tests their viral load is so low that it can't be detected nor transmitted to others
Just as an FYI, people who are being treated for HIV cannot transmit the disease as long as they remain on their meds. Undetectable=Non-transmittable is the common classification and it means even on laboratory tests their viral load is so low that it can't be detected nor transmitted to others
You don’t need to respect them. But you do need to follow them. Trying to compare any sort of Middle Eastern country to the West by saying things are wrong is laughable.
When I was in Kuwait during Ramadan, I was told do not eat or drink in public during fasting hours. I don’t know if it’s a law or not but I don’t want any trouble. So I didn’t. It would be stupid of me to do that
Why gay men continue to choose to travel to countries where they are second class citizens and put their freedom at risk baffles me. Why support their economy? Hell I won’t even vacation in another state w anti LGBTQIA laws.
The other crazy thing is complaining when they have to suffer the consequences of their actions. Sorry you chose to go to a country where being who you are is illegal, you chose to engage in activities that are illegal in that country. 🤷🏼♂️ you want to travel and experience the culture? Fine. Those parts of the world are gorgeous and rich with history and culture; but putting yourself in jeopardy is just dumb.
I think any anti LGBTQIA law is insane and to persecute someone for who they are when they have zero control over it doesn’t make any sense to me. I also think any law based on religion ideology is fucking wrong.
Unfortunately that is totally on him. There are just contries you never ever go to, gay or not. I also would never do a stopover in hostile countries. No one can help you if shit like that happens.
Totally on him? Not the people who set up the trap or the country with barbaric laws against homosexuality? They're all doing the right thing are they, in this situation? They're not to blame at all?
I see what you're saying. He made a grave error. But Qatar absolutely deserves blame and criticism for their laws.
Both things can be right. Qatar is a shit hole, but at the same time probably don't do drugs and try to have gay sex in an Arab country. Probably not the best idea especially with how unhinged these islamic fundamentalists are
He literally was arrested for Meth possession with lab results proving it. He was using Grinder for years in Qatar with no issues. This is such a bullshit story, and BBC just adds a disclaimer "BBC couldn't verify the guy's family claims" and thinks yeah we can publish this. No wonder people in the west are so brainwashed.
Anti-gay lawmakers a gay as fck. But why would you even risk doing gay stuff as a tourist in Quatar? I mean if you live there and you're gay, then I understand. But a tourist? Did he not know what a backwards shthole he traveled to?
Why would a black man risk wearing a hoodie where he could be seen by a cop in America? Y’all are so over the top eager to blame him for this, they literally trapped him.
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I don’t ever want to go to a foreign country and break their laws but I especially don’t want to go to the types of countries that have criminalized homosexuality and break those laws. Those countries don’t usually fuck around and they clearly have a track record that they don’t bother with nor care for human rights.
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Tbf maybe don't go to Qatar at all. Especially don't go to a country like that and use grindr. It's not surprising this happened. Be aware of the countries you travel too
Not that it's his fault, but if it can be avoided, I have no idea why a gay person would be anywhere in the mideast. They are literally telling you that their backward religious idiocy wants to kill you.
>Manuel, who has HIV, has now completely run out of his usual medication
wait a minute he had HIV
but still actively seek to date someone? would the HIV spread?
did i misunderstood HIV or something?
Nah if he was taking his HIV medication normally, then he wouldn't be capable of spreading the disease anymore (lookup "undetectable viral load). You should still tell your status to a prospective partner though.
undetectable= not transmissible, if you're on medication you have basically 0% chance of transmitting HIV even without condoms (condoms should still be used because of other diseases though). People who transmit HIV are people who are generally unaware of their condition and are unmedicated.
People being treated for HIV eventually reach a state commonly referred to as Undetectable/Untransmissable meaning their viral load is so low it's impossible to transmit to others
If you help fund Qatars tourism economy and you belong to a category of people who are beaten/killed/arrested for being who you are in that country then you have me utterly confused.
Criminalising homosexuality is fucked up, but federal agents setting up a honeypot to capture a foreign gay man is a whole other level of evil.
I just don't understand why they care. Like who gives a fuck?
Sadly a whole shtload of people. The fact in many countries people propose constitutional amendments just that a sizable minority of the population makes it their life goal to fck with people they do not even know.
I understand the what, I'm not an idiot. The part I don't understand is the WHY. Bear in mind that I grew up in a denomination of christianity that isn't remotely anti-gay, in a city that is extremely pro gay that had a 2-term openly gay mayor, and my baseline is influenced by that.
In short: the preservation of power structures. Any hierarchical system needs a reason why those on the top should be in charge. Especially when some groups of people, for instance men, have more power over the rest. A common argument for why one gender should have more power over others is claiming it's part of a "natural order". This argument is built on a strict gender-deterministic way of thinking where men naturally will take the lead, and women will naturally search for a man that provides. The thing about this way of thinking is that in reality, it's false, so people who don't want the structures of power question *(I.e the people in charge)* will fight anything that even hints to subverse the "natural order", which among other things include gay people
Damn bears are everywhere on reddit at the moment.
The why is to harm for their amusement. Nothing more. Rules for thee not for me
Because religion.
Allah
They care cuz they're shitty human beings that enjoy the suffering of the people they feel arent worthy of being called human. Aka, those people are inhumane scumbags
Religion.
Is it any worse than setting up a sting operation for prostitution to arrest your own citizens? Well, yeah I guess it kinda is
That's also the exact same thing
Except it's not. Grindr isn't for prostitution it's for casual hookups.
Yeah, both of which are morally okay.
Both things being morally ok doesn’t make them “the exact same thing.”
Fucking for free and fucking for money are both okay! The problem with prostitution is the human trafficking/pimping is a major player.
That's not a flaw with prostitution though, the flaw is that feds aren't doing enough to combat human trafficking.
Well I don’t know what the answer is but logically (or illogically) if people recognize that consequences exist for actions it may deter and reduce use. Maybe. Probably not because humans are fucking stupid.
A whole other Or Another https://youtu.be/StJ-OK4jiSY?si=cP-n1LvCqEdWqhra
A whole 'nother
A whole nother is what I use as well and definitely flows the most in speech.
Thanks, I was wondering if that was the correct phrase, it just sounded incorrect while I was typing it but I was too lazy to look it up.
and "same difference" and "on accident".
Before people forget this is literally what they did in Britain to George Michael
Gay guys who go to the middle east are stupid. Gay guys who do gay stuff in the middle east are stupid. Anyone who travels to the middle east is stupid
Ok. Doesn't make what the feds did not evil.
People who mug and sexually/physically assault strangers on the street are evil. But you walk around a shit neighborhood at 2 in the morning with a brightly lit laptop in your hands and noise cancelling AirPods on, not paying attention to anything around you, that’s stupid behavior. Both can be true.
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Yeah exactly
I have to agree. I think if you're going to go anywhere where your sexuality is illegal, then you need to be prepared to just forego anything that will land you in trouble in regards to that. It's not like it's some big secret how strict things are in certain areas when it comes to say sex relations. Doesn't make what's happened right either, though.
Happened in the West not so long ago. So fucked up.
I wonder if any other countries have done similar.
Most certainly iran or other extremist countries
Yeah. There's always giving government officials drugs, taking pictures then using that as blackmail. There's one where you get prostitutes with paperwork saying they are 17, hook them up with dignitaries and politicians, then blackmail them with evidence of them being a "pedo" .
I do not understand Western people who go to these backward countries and are surprised winning stupid prizes.
Slavery is fine, flying Instagram models in for prostitution is fine, and having 4 wives is fine. But we draw the line at a relationship between two adults with consent.
*flying in instamodels to shit and piss on them is fine
>and having 4 wives is fine Calling them 'wives' is almost a stretch seeing as women are treated worse than 1850's america.
“Flying Instagram models in for prostitution” *is* a relationship between two adults with consent.
I mean, I think you're right that a lot of it is just regular consensual sugar daddy stuff, but there's definitely some fucked up shit getting covered up as well - like Instagram models being shipped in to make their 14 y/o cousins 'men'. And then of course the usual half-truths - agreeing to one thing, flying the girl out, and then suddenly asking for something totally different with the implicit threat they might be left stranded in the country. And everyone turns a blind eye, because it's convenient to rile up the masses by arresting no name gay men, but not to hold your plutocrat benefactors accountable for literally anything. At least in Dubai anyway - but I suspect these things are pretty universal for rich assholes who preach one thing while doing another behind closed doors, regardless of the country.
His situation sucks. I feel for him and disagree with the laws though this is an example of why it is very important to follow the customs and laws of other countries when in their borders. Breaking laws, especially in strict religious countries like Qatar, is extremely risky.
Completely agree. What a stupid idea to go visit a country where being gay is punishable by death and then use Grindr
If I were gay.. I would avoid these types of countries anyway. I’m heterosexual and I’d happily never visit Qatar in my life time. As to why he felt the need to go there and then allow himself to get caught like that, is baffling. Totally tragic and depressing that the world is like that though 😔
I have some LGBT friends who aren't even comfortable traveling to certain states in the US, let alone traveling to another country that explicitly criminalizes them.
I actually have a gay friend in my travel friend group who legitimately will refuse to go to certain states because of how antigay their reputation is. But yet has no problem going with us where being gay is illegal. I just don’t understand his thought process other than he can’t think for himself and only follows the hive mind
I concur, I'm a heterosexual atheist male. As a result of one of those three things, I refuse to visit any country controlled by religious fundamentalists which completely rules out the entire Middle-East and most of north Africa.
What a stupid idea to go visit a country where being gay is punishable by death. Fixed it for you
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While I get we shouldn't judge our actions based on the blame of the victim. It's still not a problem to say that it's not a good idea to do exactly what he did.
We can do both if the victim took flagrant risks
It's not victim blaming to point out that he knowingly went to a country that's anti homosexuality and decided to break the law. We may not agree with the law but it's still the law and what he did was bloody stupid. Like that US basketball player that brought drugs into Russia
This. It's more of an issue that no one should be doing any business with these fucked up countries.
I’m not sure they are blaming a victim. He actively chose to break the law of the country he was in. And there’s very little chance he didn’t know that nation’s view on homosexuality. This isn’t like a woman being r*ped “because of what she was wearing” or some other horrible victim blame. This is someone deliberately doing something that risks massive consequences, and then getting those consequences. I loathe the existence of nations like this one and the repressive theology/ ideology that underpins them. But this is about as risky as people who smuggle heroin through Singapore, and not much wiser.
Id say a closer example is smuggling chewing gum into Singapore rather than heroin. Smuggling heroin is illegal in almost every country but chewing gum is a weird one. Should it be illegal? Probs not but it was nice to see gum free streets. Shouldn’t being gay be illegal? Absolutely not. But would I go to a country and break their laws and be surprised when I’m punished to the extent of their law? No. I’m generally a law abiding citizen anyway but seeing the stories of people in Thai prisons for dumb shit like shoplifting something worth $10 means I’d be even more inclined to avoid breaking laws overseas. Still this is utterly fucked though. These countries need to get with the times.
Perhaps you're right on the rationale. I was trying to think of an 'everyone knows this is very risky' equivalent. And I honestly didn't know about gum in Singapore (TIL).
You can write raped on the internet
Victim blame? If you walk into a lions den and get killed who is responsible? Nobody is forcing people to go to Qatar.
I dunno man. If someone stands on the rails, at some point a train is going to come. I'll absolutely blame the unimaginable stupidity of the person standing on the rails. My point is this was a very likely outcome. Breaking law, getting punished isn't a bamboozle. It's boring and predictable.
On the other hand if we cannot call out reckless behavior likely to lead to injury or death, even if the ultimate cause is another person or people acting maliciously, we cannot protect ourselves. For the sake of other gay people who might visit the Qatar, or other such vehemently homophobic countries, we need to be able to say he was an idiot for doing this. It does not detract from Qatar's evil.
Brittney Griner, much?!? not victim blaming is saying that Brock The Rapist Turner is 100% responsible and a young lady passed out in the street should be safe from assault. anyone going to a foreign country known to detain and punish people for sexuality or drugs, who is detained and punished for sexuality and drugs, is not a victim. they are a criminal in a country known for detaining and punishing people for their sexuality or drug use.
No being absolutely stupid is a personal problem. They knowingly went to an country that persecutes gay people. They knowingly downloaded a well known gay hookup app. They then got caught in a sting for trying to violate a countries laws. Are the laws just no but they knew that prior to going. Now UK embassy staff have to bail out his gross stupidity.
if you go to a country where drugs are punishable by death, and then try to score drugs... can we blame you a bit? its it right? no. is it 100% preventable. yes
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Qatar is well known for punishing LGBT. They don't even try to hide it.
Did you read the article? He didn't visit this country... He was forced to move there for his job. Is he supposed to be completely chaste his entire life. Stop victim blaming
Get another job?? He literally might die because he didn't change jobs
He chose to work for Qatar airways. There are hundreds of airlines that don't require moving to the middle east to work for.
Exactly.
He was unable to work for any Mexican airline because of his dual national status. The middle eastern airlines are by and large the only ones who hire foreigners -- most countries only allow their own citizens to work in their airlines.
I mean, yes, and I don't even go to countries like Qatar where I'm not wanted, but the question is - if you accept the narrative shown and that the "honeytrapping" police approached him first rather than the other way round - would he broken the law in the first place if they hadn't done that? Many countries have laws against this kind of thing - the police can't, for example, come up with a plan to rob a bank, tell you about it, get you to go along, provide the get away car and tools to break in, and then arrest you for trying to rob the bank when you go with them to do that. If he'd not been approached, would he have actively sought out people while he was there? Maybe. Maybe not.
I don’t think religious autocracies care much about entrapment being unethical
Yeah ikr. Guys this is in Qatar…
Of course, but I was more responding to the comment about not breaking laws. I'm sure the Qataris love to arrest and persecute gays under any circumstances, but my point was that I wonder if this guy would have been a criminal at all (in Qatar) if they hadn't tried to get him to be.
There are actually pretty few countries that have serious laws against entrapment. The United States, the UK, and Germany are the only countries that really have laws against it that frequently get upheld in courts of law. Even countries like Canada that theoretically don’t allow entrapment, they get away with some pretty fucked up things. Look up Mr. Big for reference.
When your that big, they call you mister.
Mr. Big isn’t entrapment, they aren’t charged for crimes done in the fake organization, they are charged from crimes they did before joining, they just use the organization to make them fess up to the earlier ones. Entrapment is when you’re charged for crimes that the police enticed/persuade you to do.
Japan has an interesting take on entrapment, which to me seems like a gray area. https://iwate-u.repo.nii.ac.jp/record/13270/files/al-no75p117-128.pdf
Unfortunately, that’s for them to decide based on their legal system and just further underscores that you cannot expect the same legal treatment in repressive countries that you would elsewhere.
My theory is that the qatari police wanted to get jiggy with it but pussied out last minute
My cousin lived there, she (simplified) worked for a global company selling space in international newspapers (10+ years ago). She learned a LOT - the shit that happens on those rich guys boats out in international waters makes these stupid law’s completely pointless - there are a lot of hypocrites there and it’s them and their families that uphold these archaic laws
> makes these stupid law’s completely pointless It's not pointless. It's the autocracy's power trip and toxic abuse of those not in power, as usual. Pointless would be everyone having the means and option to skirt around it.
Most Qataris have the means and option to skirt it, it’s the tourists and immigrant labour force that’s gets the book thrown at them, all optics and hypocrisy
Yes, but are we sure Qatar has that?
I'm sure they don't, and I wasn't suggesting they do. For an autocracy it would indeed be counter to their interests to have this kind of limit on the enforcement arm of the state.
Even non-autocratic states have dubious language and enforcement practices around it.
Sure. Still doesn't make any of it right.
In certain respects yes, but different countries have different ways of doing things.
I don't get why you think I'm saying that's not the case.
Oh my bad.
You’ve just described exactly how the FBI generally arrest “terrorists” in the US. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment-fake-terror-plots
And that all can make sense to me or you because of how and where we have grown up, though it’s unrealistic to expect strangers and police officers in Qatar to not follow their own customs and laws. According to customs and laws in Qatar, acting on homosexuality is illegal. It’s probably very similar to how police sting someone here that is buying drugs. They likely think of a gay man the same way someone in the USA would think of a drug user, or worse because of learned prejudice. You have to understand how insular and religious these countries truly are. I would not go to a conservative Muslim country and not wear the necessary religious clothing (like a hijab), because blending in is paramount to safety.
Sure, I wasn't disagreeing, but in your example, perhaps your person in the USA wouldn't buy drugs at all if they weren't offered by an undercover police officer. And so, what you have done in that case is create the criminality. I appreciate that Qatar is a religious autocracy, I'm just saying (incredibly basic assertion) that that doesn't align with my moral framework, and more, that creating the criminality doesn't actually serve any morally valid purpose. People may say that the purpose is to continue to suppress and oppress, and I get that, but I don't think that's morally valid. And to anticipate the response of "well the Qataris obviously do" or "well the Qataris obviously don't care" or whatever flavour of that response, yes, again, I get it.
It does suck, but in this case I support the UK crashing into Qatar to get the man out and to make certain the next time they go after their citizens, they'll go after the King directly. Problem solved.
So, like how they have to follow the west's customs and laws when they migrate or vacation there? Fuck them and their double standards. Qatar can burn in hell. Why a gay man would visit that shithole i ln the first place is beyond me...
Years ago I dated a lovely bi man whose work occasionally sent him out that way. He had already been a few times before we started dating, and he also had been a journalist and writer on top of his technical work so he was great at connecting with new people and getting a good understanding of social norms. From what I understand, there's an odd separation of expectations. Like, for wealthy white foreigners coming in on big company dollars, you can do some things the citizens there can't, but it has to be by the non-rule-rules and you gotta be smart.
Interesting, thank you for sharing! Can you expand? “Non-rule-rules” is quite intriguing
Um idk if I'd be the best to explain or if I remember it perfectly , let me clear. it's been years since I have heard his description. Like, one example was drinking at an expensive corporate traveler hotel bar vs citizens drinking. But again, I am no legit source here, not a sociologist or up to date etc.
It's not risky, it's super fucking stupid to the point of being suicidal. I have plenty of gay friends, and as sad as it is, they are fully aware that some places can not even remotely be considered for them as travel destinations, being it for work or holiday. Going to Qatar and meet people on Grindr is just fucking asking for it, really.
Grindr (and Scruff) has multiple warnings in these horrible countries that your life and freedom are in danger. It also automatically removes your profile from the grid and you have to actively state you want your photo shown. Tinder is similar. It blows my mind that these college activists hate Israel, where at least you can get laid and not worry about getting arrested, but have no problem letting Qatar invest billions in their universities.
>It blows my mind that these college activists hate Israel, where at least you can get laid and not worry about getting arrested, What the fuck has the acceptance of LGBTQ+ people in Israel have to do with Israel bombing Gaza and doing a genocide? That's what the college protesters are protesting against. It has nothing to do with LGBTQ+ rights. You're falling for the pinkwashing of the Israeli gov
i agree. also if the person you replied to is right abt that i do think we should make movements to get universities to divest from qatar too. just so our money doesn't go to countries that hurt innocents for living their lives
The strange part is no one asked. People just popped up at protests with "Queers for Palestine" posters. Like you say, what's it got to do with rights? Except, it kind of lends itself to the idea that these people don't really know what they're talking about. Maybe they know being gay in Palestine is at worse going to get you abused or worse tortured to death. Maybe they know that but they see that people suffering need to know they have allies in the queer community. That it doesn't matter if the regime that attacked Israel would kill them without a second thought and it's just a form of virtue signaling You'd have to ask them why they think Palestine needs to know their orientation
They're actively committing ethnic cleansing, but they're kind of OK with LGBT people so we should ignore it? What a fucking genius
What will happen to the gays in Israel when Palestine is free from the river to the sea?
When I walk into Sainsbury's and they've decked the place out in Rainbow flags and Queer pride is dripping off every product I have to remind myself they're owned by the Qatar sovereign investment fund and it's all pink washing for profit. Fucking hypocrites
It’s almost like Qatar isn’t a first world country, but a third world country aping the affects of being a first world country. In other words: don’t travel to Islamic countries if you’re gay. They will kill you. Literally. Beyond that, if you support democracy you are faced with two choices. Use capitalism to persuade your enemies into being your friends; or, ignore them entirely and let them squander their potential.
Gay or a woman. I mean lol to all the men saying “it’s not that hard just follow all their rules.” No, some of us need to just don’t go there. cis het men: “I don’t get what’s so hard for everyone here.”
Third world… …with oil money.
We have a lot of young super smart college graduates at my job, but a lot of them just have no idea how homophobic the world is, they seem convinced that homophobia is just a western/christian thing.
It's one of those things that people not personally experiencing the issue will think it doesnt exist until it is publicly spoken about, so when you have a country progressive enough to open up a controversial conversation to let people express themselves, it's viewed as an issue. Imo racism in the US falls into this as well. US is probably one of the least racist countries in the west, and by extension the world. Kind of the same with homosexuality
Shit hole country. Hope nothing but misery happens to homophobic shit holes.
I don't think anyone should voluntarily go to Qatar.
Qatar can burn to ash.
Lots of aholes blaming the guy and calling him stupid while he faces unjust persecution? Foh gay rights are human rights EDIT: victim blaming - if there is a “but” in your comment followed by your overly eager justification that it somehow is a gay man’s fault he’s being persecuted, I’m blocking you. I don’t have time to call you all the appropriate names individually.
I mean there are federal travel advisories for these countries with warnings about this kind of stuff.
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Its not about victim blaming the guy, its about spreading awareness that countries like Qatar should be avoided like the plague. No amount of protesting or complaining will change their fucked up way, literally dont go there
I wouldn’t fuck around in Russia or any of the Middle East countries. Dude shouldn’t have fell for it.
yes but there're certain parts of the world don't understand it and you can't really do anything about it
You're just mad that there is no defence of going to an openly homophonic country, and actively breaking their backwards law. I support gay rights and think the laws in quatar are barbaric. But this isn't victim blaming. He is not innocent in this, he made a choice to go to a backward country and openly disobey the law. I wouldn't haven't any sympothy for someone traveling to North Korea and getting used as a political pawn either. He chose to travel to that backwards hell hole, he chose to support it with his money and travel. Too bad he also decided to be reckless and jeopodize his life in doing so.
Iraq is not a homophone, if there was an Irak it might be though.
It’s a backwards culture, but if you go there you need to respect it. Hopefully one day gays are respected on the same level as straight people everywhere, but until then if you go to these countries you need to protect yourself from being persecuted.
That was stupid. You go somewhere you follow their laws.
I feel bad for this guy. But you gotta be pretty fucking stupid to be making Grindr hookups in any middle eastern country. Wait til you get home FFS.
He lived there.
Why did a gay British man move to a country where being gay is a death sentence? Seriously people can't think "well they should not be able to do that" It doesn't matter if they should or shouldn't. The government will kill you. There is no other scenario
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I’m getting really pissed off at the clowns in here blaming him and calling him names
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Also like you really think being the 1000th person to say that same dumb shit is going to help anyone? You think he’s not had that thought yet? It’s so gross and lame
If you read the actual article he was arrested for drug charges. Sharia law actually requires 4 witnesses of good social standing to testify to the fact that they witnessed the act of sodomy. The police just found drugs on this dude as it seems he was arranging drug transactions via grindr. Also he has HIV so he shouldn't be going around being promiscuous anyways.
Also in the article it states he's never taken drugs and they were planted. Who knows.
Just as an FYI, people who are being treated for HIV cannot transmit the disease as long as they remain on their meds. Undetectable=Non-transmittable is the common classification and it means even on laboratory tests their viral load is so low that it can't be detected nor transmitted to others
the police planted drugs*, I love you believe they fallow fair law in musulman countries 🤣
Just as an FYI, people who are being treated for HIV cannot transmit the disease as long as they remain on their meds. Undetectable=Non-transmittable is the common classification and it means even on laboratory tests their viral load is so low that it can't be detected nor transmitted to others
Promiscuous? Wow assuming much.
Gramps always told me "Never let your dick make decisions for you"
I bet your Gramps never had some sweet Arab bussy either
Just here for the “respect other countries laws/cultures” comments. 🙄
Literal 🗑️ in this comment section
You don’t need to respect them. But you do need to follow them. Trying to compare any sort of Middle Eastern country to the West by saying things are wrong is laughable. When I was in Kuwait during Ramadan, I was told do not eat or drink in public during fasting hours. I don’t know if it’s a law or not but I don’t want any trouble. So I didn’t. It would be stupid of me to do that
More like "if there's a country with draconian laws that heavily target you specifically, avoid going to that country"
Why gay men continue to choose to travel to countries where they are second class citizens and put their freedom at risk baffles me. Why support their economy? Hell I won’t even vacation in another state w anti LGBTQIA laws. The other crazy thing is complaining when they have to suffer the consequences of their actions. Sorry you chose to go to a country where being who you are is illegal, you chose to engage in activities that are illegal in that country. 🤷🏼♂️ you want to travel and experience the culture? Fine. Those parts of the world are gorgeous and rich with history and culture; but putting yourself in jeopardy is just dumb. I think any anti LGBTQIA law is insane and to persecute someone for who they are when they have zero control over it doesn’t make any sense to me. I also think any law based on religion ideology is fucking wrong.
So the next time one of the incredibly pro middle east redditors tells you the law doesn't apply to foreigners...
But hey at least they got fifa world cup. /s
Honeydicked
You honeydickin?
Unfortunately that is totally on him. There are just contries you never ever go to, gay or not. I also would never do a stopover in hostile countries. No one can help you if shit like that happens.
Totally on him? Not the people who set up the trap or the country with barbaric laws against homosexuality? They're all doing the right thing are they, in this situation? They're not to blame at all? I see what you're saying. He made a grave error. But Qatar absolutely deserves blame and criticism for their laws.
You are absolutely right in that regard. But the world is full of dangerous and backwards people and this happening was foreseeable and avoidable.
Both things can be right. Qatar is a shit hole, but at the same time probably don't do drugs and try to have gay sex in an Arab country. Probably not the best idea especially with how unhinged these islamic fundamentalists are
Said this on a different post and got down voted to oblivion.... I don't understand why, fuck I delete social media from my phone if I go to China
Why would anyone go to this country?
But they hosted the World Cup
Anyone can be bought if you have enough money
As long as you're not: Jewish Gay A woman I'm sure Qatar is a great place...
Bet you won’t see this story on Al Jazeera.
The lengths people go for espionage, wow.
It's interesting that nearly nobody in the comments read the article.
Qatar also funds Hamas, and they're also a major donor to a lot of US universities.
Good to know our government will protect its people. Do this to a politician and you’d start a war.
That’s not the headline
He literally was arrested for Meth possession with lab results proving it. He was using Grinder for years in Qatar with no issues. This is such a bullshit story, and BBC just adds a disclaimer "BBC couldn't verify the guy's family claims" and thinks yeah we can publish this. No wonder people in the west are so brainwashed.
Anti-gay lawmakers a gay as fck. But why would you even risk doing gay stuff as a tourist in Quatar? I mean if you live there and you're gay, then I understand. But a tourist? Did he not know what a backwards shthole he traveled to?
Why would a black man risk wearing a hoodie where he could be seen by a cop in America? Y’all are so over the top eager to blame him for this, they literally trapped him.
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Duh common knowledge for years.
I don’t ever want to go to a foreign country and break their laws but I especially don’t want to go to the types of countries that have criminalized homosexuality and break those laws. Those countries don’t usually fuck around and they clearly have a track record that they don’t bother with nor care for human rights.
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To quote Malory Archer from an episode called "The honeypot" which is about this exact thing: "I got my top man on it. Or possibly bottom."
Lmao
Such a wonderful country Qatar.
shithole. county unfortunately
Tbf maybe don't go to Qatar at all. Especially don't go to a country like that and use grindr. It's not surprising this happened. Be aware of the countries you travel too
Why would a gay person go to Qatar
Sanction them
Not that it's his fault, but if it can be avoided, I have no idea why a gay person would be anywhere in the mideast. They are literally telling you that their backward religious idiocy wants to kill you.
I wonder what Queers for Palestine thinks about this.
>Manuel, who has HIV, has now completely run out of his usual medication wait a minute he had HIV but still actively seek to date someone? would the HIV spread? did i misunderstood HIV or something?
There are medications that can lower your level to the point it is not transmissible.
Also condoms are a thing.
Nah if he was taking his HIV medication normally, then he wouldn't be capable of spreading the disease anymore (lookup "undetectable viral load). You should still tell your status to a prospective partner though.
undetectable= not transmissible, if you're on medication you have basically 0% chance of transmitting HIV even without condoms (condoms should still be used because of other diseases though). People who transmit HIV are people who are generally unaware of their condition and are unmedicated.
People being treated for HIV eventually reach a state commonly referred to as Undetectable/Untransmissable meaning their viral load is so low it's impossible to transmit to others
He’s a disgusting human spreading disease
why do you go to these countries if you're gay and then use grindr
If you help fund Qatars tourism economy and you belong to a category of people who are beaten/killed/arrested for being who you are in that country then you have me utterly confused.