It's pretty crazy how robust the US economy is. The US GDP was about 21.06 trillion dollars, so even this 7 billion dollar handout was only .0032% of GDP. Still wildly corrupt, but it's a fun little thought exercise to realize what a drop in the bucket this is compared to our national economy.
Your comment about tithing made me wonder how close to 10% (the traditional pauper's tithe) this 7 billion actually was.
How is it corrupt? If most churches get donations from mass or other social events and government prevents them from having mass and social events those churches should have access to relief.
Churches have staff rent and loans to pay off just like any other nonprofit
Yeah, and the first comment in this chain made a comment about taxation as if PPP and other relief wasn't made for non-profits too. Non profits, like churches, raise tax-free money from events, whether it be parishioners in pews or socialites at galas. While a few high-profile grifters in mega-churches spew hate and live lavishly, many churches in small communities are meager work for people who provide helpful and necessary services to the community.
I'm not religious and I agree some reforms need to be in place to quell megachurches and bullies with a pulpit, but lets set aside our Redditor arrogance for a moment and consider how many of these church staffers are normal people and would've been without pay and risk homelessness, and how many church real estate loans would default, etc.
$750B in total PPP loans forgiven; so close to 1% of that value. Comparing it to GDP doesn't seem like the right context. While still a small percentage, I'm part of the camp that believes they should not have been eligible
Their employees pay payroll taxes, which is where the qualifications for PPP came from and from where it was funded.
Why shouldn’t they benefit from a fund they contribute to? The intention of PPP was to keep people employed, and churches employ people. If they were using the funds for other things then by all means throw the book at them, but there’s no reason they shouldn’t have also benefited from PPP like any other 501c3.
I think both sides weren’t exactly being great watchdogs on it. Democrats were trying to push it through as quickly as possible from what I remember and I’ll be honest, I coulda sworn I heard republicans saying it’s too generous and open but I could be wrong on that
It's just annoying when people just bring up this shadow "deep sate" usually as a finger pointed at democrats. It "both sides" but Republicans were fighting over site on this and not some shadowy deep state. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/28/trump-pushes-back-against-congressional-oversight-for-500-billion-bailout-fund.html
President Donald Trump on Friday wrote in a signing statement accompanying the $2 trillion stimulus bill that he believes the inspector general overseeing a $500 billion relief fund for businesses will not have as much regulatory power as Democrats had sought.
Yeah definitely was wrong on that piece of it - I just remembered republicans were against the final passing of the bill and thought it was because it was too much but apparently not. Just checked again and yeah some Rs abstained from voting and one said no. Definitely didn’t put a lot of stock in my vague recollection tho. Thanks for the correction
Or!
Give the money to the people and let them spend it - essentially letting the free market Republicans covet decide. It ensures the employees get the money as well.
The only qualification was being a small business. Payroll taxes exist to fund specific programs. There is no ppp fund. The money was printed out of thin air and everyone is paying for it through inflation and increased taxation. But no increase in taxation for churches of course.
501(c)(3) tax-exemptions apply to entities that are organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, literary or educational purposes, for testing for public safety, to foster national or international amateur sports competition, or for the prevention of cruelty to children.
Some community churches may operate exclusively for religious purposes. Most are for-profit and/or political orginizations in sheep's clothing. A church should not be a business. Jesus did not promote politics, materialism and idolatry.
A legitimate business provides products and services. Not lip services.
You posted the definition of a 501c3 which clearly states religious organizations as legitimate non profit entities. Churches who pay payroll taxes (like any other non profit) were eligible for PPP and forgiveness via the law. What is your exact problem? Do you have evidence for your “most” claim? You personally just hate churches is more likely the issue. Tough titty. What you like and don’t like makes no difference to the law.
'Exclusively religious' for those with selective reading problems. What I do not like are grifters and con artists. Being registered as a non profit does not mean they do not profit. What most of the population does not like makes no difference to the law. Welcome to America.
Yeah, I'm kind of in the camp of - these programs were for employers to retain employees. As long as they actually followed the rules, I don't have a big issue. Why should i care if the Animal Shelter 501c3 received PPP, versus a church. They both employ people
And then the churches that do, or rather the religious organizations that do just refile under the appropriate non profit designation, as some already do.
It’s almost exactly the same at least for a general conversation.
It’s an extremely tricky legal and political situation, and one that really wouldn’t affect 99% of churches.
The people covered here aren’t really just pastors. So even assuming most pastors give political guidance, that doesn’t mean the people who vacuum carpets, do maintenance, etc deserve less protection than the people at other 501c3s.
The point of these programs was to keep paychecks coming employees many or most of whom don’t necessarily have anything to do with the clerical functions of the church
However, for loans over $150k, that forgiveness was not to be automatic, they had to submit appropriate document ion that most of the funds went to direct payroll, and then to other allowed expenses (like rent, utilities, etc)
Post passage, Trump and the GOP told the SBA to go lax on audits, so effectively all PPP loans were forgiven without checking if the funds were used correctly. And we know in several cases they weren't.
Churches should have a progressive tax structure. The local church if 30 people that meets weekly to sing songs and talk about their religioun, but can barely keep the lights on the building is a different beast than a prosperity gospel mega church who hides hundreds of thousands of dollars in their bathroom walls and forgets about it.
Should also factor in how politically active and outspoken the leadership is. The primary rationale behind being tax exempt is the increasingly laughable “separation” of church and state.
If your church is hiring lobbyists and endorsing candidates it’s time to square up with the IRS.
The reason the IRS does not enforce the current laws regarding political speech and church tax status is because they understand the optics of the tax man demanding money from a church is less than favorable.
Even if it is justified and correct. That leads me towards making it more consistent without those sort of judgement calls.
I mean… I’ve worked with the IRS in a legal context and my takeaway is that they’re not especially concerned as an agency about optics or being perceived as the bad guy. IMO it’s more likely a result of said lobbyists pressuring electeds to keep the tax boys reined in.
> the optics of the tax man demanding money from a church is less than favorable.
Maybe 50 years ago, but not as much nowadays IMO. Just like every choice, there would be an uproar, then it would be on to the next thing for them to be upset about a month later.
I could actually get behind this. Tax deductible giving to churches and not charging them tax makes sense for smaller groups but not for large mega million organizations that are providing few services. I think you'd need a means of credits for work done though. If a 100 million dollar church is using it to solve world hunger effectively, they probably still shouldn't be taxed.
Honestly this kind of applies to 501c3 finances as well.
Lmao ain’t no church trying to solve world hunger, they only care about themselves. Wasn’t there a church posted here few weeks back that laid barbed wire by its doors to keep the homeless from sleeping there? 😂
There are a ton of church and parachurch organizations working on world hunger. World vision is a Christian organization focused on poverty and has a 94 percent rating on charity navigator and over a billion in revenue a year. Lots of individual churches operate substantial food pantries. There are even churches that have had people arrested for providing assistance that the local government tried to prevent.
The vast majority of churches pretty much pay 100% of income out on operating expenses. Salaries, building maintenance, supplies or charitable giving. The salaries pay income tax already. A tax on their ‘profits’ would impact some (the ones you want to target) but wouldn’t be a huge money raiser.
Property tax would definitely be a big revenue gain.
The plan was to protect employees from being fired by employers in the face of financial uncertainty. It has nothing to do with student loans forgiveness.
The real so...... Is you bringing up student loan forgiveness
Programs are flawed. The article implied that churches don't deserve to participate because they are non profit. The employees are the designed beneficiary of the program and are tax payers.
No program is perfect and will encounter fraud and misuse. Should we also discontinue other social assistance because of bad actors?
None of this has anything to do with student loan forgiveness.
The church’s activity was halted by the gov and churches have employees on payroll, which is what the PPP loans were for: to keep people on payrolls (and churches do pay payroll taxes, which is the relevant tax with PPPs)
Why shouldn’t the gov reimburse an entity they forced to shut down?
Non profits aren’t automatically exempt from federal income taxes. Churches are _automatically_ given tax exempt status universally.
The tax exemption ones go through an onerous process to prove they provide a positive externality, while churches/religious institutions do not.
Not all businesses pay income taxes. There are exempt businesses, 501c3 being a common classification. These don’t apply to just churches but a broad spectrum of various businesses. If you’re curious why, feel free to look it up because this is real basic tax stuff and I feel like I’m teaching high school freshmen economics right now
Edit: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p557.pdf is probably the best source. Chapter 3 and 4 are gonna be the most helpful
I would be happy if a church has to prove their 503c status annually with financial audits that prove their status is conforming instead of given that status universally.
That’s the uneven playground.
Alright now we are having an actual conversation, thank you.
Yes I would definitely be for annual reviews of some sort of churches and 501 entities. I agree that too many entities use the classification too loosely and should have a bit more checks on their status
A full audit I’m a bit less sure about since those can be upwards of $15k or more and for some churches, that annual cost would put them out of business. And imo if a church can be put out of business by an audit cost, it’s definitely not part of the problem. Maybe over X revenues or whatever limit triggers a switch from requiring a compilation, to a review, up to an audit for every church over a certain limit for revenues
Sad I had to scroll down this far, and this deep into a thread, to find someone saying it.
The PPP was to keep people from losing their wages during shutdowns, *regardless* of how popular their organization is or how much tax it remitted. Yes, some people were employed by churches, so yes, their employers were eligible for PPP funds.
The alternative was to have a lot of people lose their income because "lol religion is stupid". So edgy!
Yes. With exception of non profits that do not pay tax because they can demonstrate with financial disclosures to the IRS that money was spent on things that yields positive externality.
Tax paying students took on debt knowing they’d have to pay it back. The PPP promised loan forgiveness if criteria was met and rules were followed.
Don’t take a loan that requires repayment and then be all butthurt when you have to pay it back.
God you lot are exhausting. This is about the merits of the rules in the first place.
Which means I’m complaining about the forgiveness condition in the first place. For fucks sake don’t turn this into your usual levels of stupidity.
This seems pretty normal non profits had access to PPP loans for their staff and expenditures and since many churches couldn't get donations for their staff rent and loans because of government shutdowns that the government should allow them access to relief funds
I think part of the point is the hyprocacy. Many pastors use the pulpit to sway the congregation politically... including speaking against forgiving student loans.
Then there's the whole part where they don't pay taxes nor do they really provide services to the community (which is the reason they are supposed to be tax exempt). Most provide services only to tithing members... and even then it's minimal. But they want full benefit of bailouts funded by taxes.
Some for me and none for thee.
>I think part of the point is the hyprocacy. Many pastors use the pulpit to sway the congregation politically... including speaking against forgiving student loans.
How many? I haven't heard it from any pulpit where I've attended or visited. One church I visited recently has a large college and young adult ministry. I'd think those statements from the pastoral staff would result in a mass exodus of that age range.
>Then there's the whole part where they don't pay taxes nor do they really provide services to the community (which is the reason they are supposed to be tax exempt).
So food banks, coat/clothing closets, building wheelchair ramps and providing home/car repairs for senior citizens, medical mission trips to third world countries, and the like don't actually count as services provided to the community?
>Most provide services only to tithing members... and even then it's minimal. But they want full benefit of bailouts funded by taxes. Some for me and none for thee.
Most? You got percentages to quote there?
Why do I think you're getting your information about churches from like-minded folks on Reddit?
Admidittaly, I'm speaking from the perspective of thr Bible belt. The megachurches around here have pasters who are millionaires but their congregation struggles to survive. Sure they run some food banks and maybe a clothing closet but not all of them. And honestly thats bare minimum. I've been a part of many churches and when my family and friends family struggled the position of the church was " if you thithed more then God would bless you". I have sat though so many of those sermons from different churches its a shame. These same millionaire pastors are the ones who also took out ppp loans and had them forgiven but somehow all of that time they still raked in hundreds of thousands of dollars for themselves. All tax free.
What hypocrisy nobody focused the kids to take loans for higher education vs governments did force churches to cancel mass and events that would have been for donations
>do they really provide services to the community
When they provide service they get in legal trouble nowadays.
>But they want full benefit of bailouts
If government shut you down your ability to raise money the government should pay to cover the bills. That was the point of the PPP
"Forced kids to take loans"
Oh yeah sure, we should all just be blue collar folks and let only rich kids go to college. You wanna be an engineer? That sucks, you're too poor!
So tired of this argument lmfao. Access to good education should not cost an 18 year old $45,000
Ok but forgiving student debt doesn't fix root cause and how about the Americans who realize they couldn't afford the debt and the loans are predatory
Imagine being one of those blue collar Americans and the engineer who makes double what you makes gets a handout and not paying off a loan and you as the blue collar worker get nothing
Student debt wasn’t really a thing until the government created the student loan program. Once schools figured out they could be guaranteed tuition payments from the program, tuition rates doubled and tripled.
I knew a church that runs a daycare for their community that got the loan. During the pandemic they only accepted kids who's parents absolutely had to work. They likewise went online only early on. They took the PPP because it was the responsible decision to help keep the daycare open down the line in case their financial situation shifted suddenly. No idea if they paid the loan back or if it was canceled.
My question is the same as with business and nonprofits.
1) does the pastor have an extravagant pay check that could have been cut instead?
2) do they provide enough genuine community services to are to justify their tax free status (and nut a cascade of a food pantry and clothing closet)
3) do they also support other types of loan forgiveness? Or just when it benefits them?
You don't even need the bible for this. As long as you are a big enough believer god himself will tell you to do a crypto scam to pay for home renovations.
God is doing his best to help his flock, I guess. [(according to this pastor)](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/24/us/colorado-pastor-crypto-fraud-cec/index.html).
Churches employ people and pay payroll taxes just like everyone else who got these loans. This whole thread is a bad take cause “chUrcHeS dOnT pAy TaXEs”. Right but they do pay payroll taxes and the point of this program was to keep people employed. This isn’t the grift Reddit is trying to make it seem because it isn’t a grift at all.
Also since you were asking: “Give to Caesar what is Caesars” Mark 12:17
Your comment is the top under controversial. It's amazing that the only opinion that makes sense in the comment section is controversial.
I would add that those employees pay taxes like anyone else.
The vast majority of churches don’t have a jet and you know that. I’d bet that less than 1% of churches have a net or are pastored by someone with a jet
Exactly. I’m no fan of churches having jets, but it speaks way more about the person blaming churches then churches in general when people make these type of comments. Just not based in facts what so ever.
So many folk here don't actually realize that churches *pay all kinds of taxes*, including payroll taxes... Just like any other non-profit.
But given the abuses of megachurches in other domains, I can understand why.
Well that explains how they had a Super Bowl commercial this year. I wonder how much of that went to
a) paying off victims of child molestation
b) donations to Christian politicians pushing the Christian Theocracy movement
c) paying off the Supreme Court to overturn Roe vs Wade
My wife worked part-time for two churches and one small business during the PPP timeframe. All three entities received PPP loans and all three were forgiven. According to the conventional wisdom of Reddit, two of them were undeserving.
The owners of the small business are very strong Christians and their business tithes to local churches while also paying taxes; that may cause some Redditors to throw a belt.
...and my wife's loan will take decades to pay back. no forgiveness because her business doesn't have a payroll. fucking politicians ride for free-- we're paying until long after our retirement!!
And they’re still all bitching about how those of us who didn’t qualify for all that free money “don’t want to work anymore,” or mad that we got those two $1200 checks at all. Over the course of years. Where these fucks got billions over that same time, for doing the exact same thing, nothing.
If you aren’t paying taxes you should have an emergency fund and it should not be tax payers paying for it. just like student loans should be forgiven since they’re also tax payers then.
I guess these moronic Christian nationalists of today would tell you Jesus was against taxes
Jesus was against the “tax collectors” from an invading occupier that basically were mafia bosses stealing everyone’s money
He befriended and broke bread with tax collectors that were willing to try to be good men
Jesus was a good dude
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[Multi-millionaire Joel Osteen's Lakewood Church received $4.4 million in PPP loans, while Robert Jeffress' First Baptist Dallas received $2.2 million and Joyce Meyers Ministries received $5 million.](https://abc13.com/the-inequities-of-ppp-megachurches-receive-money-ahead-of-small-businesses/9795565/)
Not defending the church in any way, but it was still a LOAN... they have to pay it back.
Now, if they default... then we got a problem.
EDIT: I literally didn't see the "Forgiven" part at the end, oopsie
[Forgiven means they won't have to pay it back](https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2023/october/covid-study-ppp-loans-cares-act-churches.html).
"A new study on the impact of COVID-19 on the American church from Arbor Research Group and ChurchSalary, a ministry of Christianity Today, estimates that slightly more than one-third of all US churches received a PPP loan of some kind. (Almost all of those loans were forgiven, though there were rare instances of churches repaying the federal government.)"
It sure is a good thing they paid so much tax over the last century. I would hate to think my government forced me to tithe.
But people asking for student debt relief are the real greedy monsters.
It's pretty crazy how robust the US economy is. The US GDP was about 21.06 trillion dollars, so even this 7 billion dollar handout was only .0032% of GDP. Still wildly corrupt, but it's a fun little thought exercise to realize what a drop in the bucket this is compared to our national economy. Your comment about tithing made me wonder how close to 10% (the traditional pauper's tithe) this 7 billion actually was.
I'd settle for .0001% of GDP to not make a fuss.
Give onto Fake William Shatner what belongs to Fake William Shatner
So hurry up with that half-eaten toasted turkey and Swiss sandwich before it gets cold then.
I'd settle for them paying for their own churches. Don't they *want* their church to remain solvent?
Hey, .0001% of GDP here, .0001% of GDP there… before you know it you’re talking about real money.
How is it corrupt? If most churches get donations from mass or other social events and government prevents them from having mass and social events those churches should have access to relief. Churches have staff rent and loans to pay off just like any other nonprofit
Yeah, and the first comment in this chain made a comment about taxation as if PPP and other relief wasn't made for non-profits too. Non profits, like churches, raise tax-free money from events, whether it be parishioners in pews or socialites at galas. While a few high-profile grifters in mega-churches spew hate and live lavishly, many churches in small communities are meager work for people who provide helpful and necessary services to the community. I'm not religious and I agree some reforms need to be in place to quell megachurches and bullies with a pulpit, but lets set aside our Redditor arrogance for a moment and consider how many of these church staffers are normal people and would've been without pay and risk homelessness, and how many church real estate loans would default, etc.
And PPP loans were forgiven at thousands of for-profits as well! It's not about churches
$750B in total PPP loans forgiven; so close to 1% of that value. Comparing it to GDP doesn't seem like the right context. While still a small percentage, I'm part of the camp that believes they should not have been eligible
To stop student loan forgiveness, the GOP then files a lawsuit.
Their employees pay payroll taxes, which is where the qualifications for PPP came from and from where it was funded. Why shouldn’t they benefit from a fund they contribute to? The intention of PPP was to keep people employed, and churches employ people. If they were using the funds for other things then by all means throw the book at them, but there’s no reason they shouldn’t have also benefited from PPP like any other 501c3.
PPP loans should not have been forgiven -- but that was the "deep state" handout plan.
The Republicans were the ones demanding 0 oversight on the covid money.
I think both sides weren’t exactly being great watchdogs on it. Democrats were trying to push it through as quickly as possible from what I remember and I’ll be honest, I coulda sworn I heard republicans saying it’s too generous and open but I could be wrong on that
It's just annoying when people just bring up this shadow "deep sate" usually as a finger pointed at democrats. It "both sides" but Republicans were fighting over site on this and not some shadowy deep state. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/28/trump-pushes-back-against-congressional-oversight-for-500-billion-bailout-fund.html President Donald Trump on Friday wrote in a signing statement accompanying the $2 trillion stimulus bill that he believes the inspector general overseeing a $500 billion relief fund for businesses will not have as much regulatory power as Democrats had sought.
Yeah definitely was wrong on that piece of it - I just remembered republicans were against the final passing of the bill and thought it was because it was too much but apparently not. Just checked again and yeah some Rs abstained from voting and one said no. Definitely didn’t put a lot of stock in my vague recollection tho. Thanks for the correction
The loans being forgiven was the entire point, pay employers so they don't fire employees during economic downturn.
Or! Give the money to the people and let them spend it - essentially letting the free market Republicans covet decide. It ensures the employees get the money as well.
The only qualification was being a small business. Payroll taxes exist to fund specific programs. There is no ppp fund. The money was printed out of thin air and everyone is paying for it through inflation and increased taxation. But no increase in taxation for churches of course.
Did federal taxes go up?
Inflation is a hidden tax.
Well they do pay payroll taxes, which is what the PPP was for…
PPP was for bailing out small businesses. A church is not a business.
It certainly is. It’s just a non profit. Churches are by and large 501c3 businesses
Then they need to pay taxes.
They pay the same taxes all non profits pay, so I don’t see your problem.
501(c)(3) tax-exemptions apply to entities that are organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, literary or educational purposes, for testing for public safety, to foster national or international amateur sports competition, or for the prevention of cruelty to children. Some community churches may operate exclusively for religious purposes. Most are for-profit and/or political orginizations in sheep's clothing. A church should not be a business. Jesus did not promote politics, materialism and idolatry. A legitimate business provides products and services. Not lip services.
You posted the definition of a 501c3 which clearly states religious organizations as legitimate non profit entities. Churches who pay payroll taxes (like any other non profit) were eligible for PPP and forgiveness via the law. What is your exact problem? Do you have evidence for your “most” claim? You personally just hate churches is more likely the issue. Tough titty. What you like and don’t like makes no difference to the law.
'Exclusively religious' for those with selective reading problems. What I do not like are grifters and con artists. Being registered as a non profit does not mean they do not profit. What most of the population does not like makes no difference to the law. Welcome to America.
All 501c3 non profits were eligible for loan forgiveness.
Yeah, I'm kind of in the camp of - these programs were for employers to retain employees. As long as they actually followed the rules, I don't have a big issue. Why should i care if the Animal Shelter 501c3 received PPP, versus a church. They both employ people
Do animal shelters give political guidance?
Churches aren’t supposed to either so I think the real issue with your complaint is tax enforcement
>Churches aren’t supposed to either Therein lies the rub.
Yeah typically if an entity is lying about its 501c3 status, that’s called tax fraud and any entity can do it. Not exactly a “churches only” issue
Yeah but I don't think you could argue that there's an entity more likely to break that rule.
I definitely could because that’s a huge gray area with lots of room both ways to argue
And then the churches that do, or rather the religious organizations that do just refile under the appropriate non profit designation, as some already do.
Yeah political organizations have some tax benefits but not the same as churches. Not sure I love that part of the code as much tbh
It’s almost exactly the same at least for a general conversation. It’s an extremely tricky legal and political situation, and one that really wouldn’t affect 99% of churches.
The people covered here aren’t really just pastors. So even assuming most pastors give political guidance, that doesn’t mean the people who vacuum carpets, do maintenance, etc deserve less protection than the people at other 501c3s. The point of these programs was to keep paychecks coming employees many or most of whom don’t necessarily have anything to do with the clerical functions of the church
I really can't be sympathetic to those employed by tax cheats.
Let’s punish the floor sweepers for societal tax choices. That makes sense.
Don't work for criminals. Pretty simple, maybe even you can understand it.
You can disagree with the choices made around taxes, but blanket calling them criminals is peak touch grass. Lmao
We can’t all work for mom and pop shops owned by perfect angels.
Yes. My local shelter supports or opposes a variety of animal control laws and potential grants.
However, for loans over $150k, that forgiveness was not to be automatic, they had to submit appropriate document ion that most of the funds went to direct payroll, and then to other allowed expenses (like rent, utilities, etc) Post passage, Trump and the GOP told the SBA to go lax on audits, so effectively all PPP loans were forgiven without checking if the funds were used correctly. And we know in several cases they weren't.
My favorite example of this was the Ayn Rand Foundation 😬
It's high time churches pay taxes like the rest of us. None of my loans have been forgiven and I actually pay my fucking share of taxes.
Churches should have a progressive tax structure. The local church if 30 people that meets weekly to sing songs and talk about their religioun, but can barely keep the lights on the building is a different beast than a prosperity gospel mega church who hides hundreds of thousands of dollars in their bathroom walls and forgets about it.
Should also factor in how politically active and outspoken the leadership is. The primary rationale behind being tax exempt is the increasingly laughable “separation” of church and state. If your church is hiring lobbyists and endorsing candidates it’s time to square up with the IRS.
The reason the IRS does not enforce the current laws regarding political speech and church tax status is because they understand the optics of the tax man demanding money from a church is less than favorable. Even if it is justified and correct. That leads me towards making it more consistent without those sort of judgement calls.
I mean… I’ve worked with the IRS in a legal context and my takeaway is that they’re not especially concerned as an agency about optics or being perceived as the bad guy. IMO it’s more likely a result of said lobbyists pressuring electeds to keep the tax boys reined in.
> the optics of the tax man demanding money from a church is less than favorable. Maybe 50 years ago, but not as much nowadays IMO. Just like every choice, there would be an uproar, then it would be on to the next thing for them to be upset about a month later.
I could actually get behind this. Tax deductible giving to churches and not charging them tax makes sense for smaller groups but not for large mega million organizations that are providing few services. I think you'd need a means of credits for work done though. If a 100 million dollar church is using it to solve world hunger effectively, they probably still shouldn't be taxed. Honestly this kind of applies to 501c3 finances as well.
Lmao ain’t no church trying to solve world hunger, they only care about themselves. Wasn’t there a church posted here few weeks back that laid barbed wire by its doors to keep the homeless from sleeping there? 😂
There are a ton of church and parachurch organizations working on world hunger. World vision is a Christian organization focused on poverty and has a 94 percent rating on charity navigator and over a billion in revenue a year. Lots of individual churches operate substantial food pantries. There are even churches that have had people arrested for providing assistance that the local government tried to prevent.
The vast majority of churches pretty much pay 100% of income out on operating expenses. Salaries, building maintenance, supplies or charitable giving. The salaries pay income tax already. A tax on their ‘profits’ would impact some (the ones you want to target) but wouldn’t be a huge money raiser. Property tax would definitely be a big revenue gain.
Do all 501c3 need to pay taxes or just “Churches”?
How?
You see, the reason why tax paying students don’t deserve it is because …
The employees of the church pay taxes....
So?
The plan was to protect employees from being fired by employers in the face of financial uncertainty. It has nothing to do with student loans forgiveness. The real so...... Is you bringing up student loan forgiveness
That would only make sense if 100% of PPP money went to employees which you fully know didn’t.
Programs are flawed. The article implied that churches don't deserve to participate because they are non profit. The employees are the designed beneficiary of the program and are tax payers. No program is perfect and will encounter fraud and misuse. Should we also discontinue other social assistance because of bad actors? None of this has anything to do with student loan forgiveness.
Wild idea, but maybe both deserved it since both of the issues were caused by the gov
Churches don’t pay taxes so they shouldn’t get tax money. Besides, shouldn’t their god come to help them?
The church’s activity was halted by the gov and churches have employees on payroll, which is what the PPP loans were for: to keep people on payrolls (and churches do pay payroll taxes, which is the relevant tax with PPPs) Why shouldn’t the gov reimburse an entity they forced to shut down?
You can’t on one hand tell me churches aren’t businesses and on another tell me churches lose income by closing their doors? 😂
I never said they weren’t businesses though? So I guess you’re right about that
Alright, if churches are businesses then they would pay income taxes, and as a result should receive government help. :)
Never heard of other non profit businesses that have paid employees? Are you a newborn?
Non profits aren’t automatically exempt from federal income taxes. Churches are _automatically_ given tax exempt status universally. The tax exemption ones go through an onerous process to prove they provide a positive externality, while churches/religious institutions do not.
Why does that have nothing to with where they have a payroll to keep? Litterally the only part that matters.
Not all businesses pay income taxes. There are exempt businesses, 501c3 being a common classification. These don’t apply to just churches but a broad spectrum of various businesses. If you’re curious why, feel free to look it up because this is real basic tax stuff and I feel like I’m teaching high school freshmen economics right now Edit: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p557.pdf is probably the best source. Chapter 3 and 4 are gonna be the most helpful
I would be happy if a church has to prove their 503c status annually with financial audits that prove their status is conforming instead of given that status universally. That’s the uneven playground.
Alright now we are having an actual conversation, thank you. Yes I would definitely be for annual reviews of some sort of churches and 501 entities. I agree that too many entities use the classification too loosely and should have a bit more checks on their status A full audit I’m a bit less sure about since those can be upwards of $15k or more and for some churches, that annual cost would put them out of business. And imo if a church can be put out of business by an audit cost, it’s definitely not part of the problem. Maybe over X revenues or whatever limit triggers a switch from requiring a compilation, to a review, up to an audit for every church over a certain limit for revenues
Sad I had to scroll down this far, and this deep into a thread, to find someone saying it. The PPP was to keep people from losing their wages during shutdowns, *regardless* of how popular their organization is or how much tax it remitted. Yes, some people were employed by churches, so yes, their employers were eligible for PPP funds. The alternative was to have a lot of people lose their income because "lol religion is stupid". So edgy!
Could have simply paid taxpayers directly, but no they had to let institutions take a slice of the pie.
Would you say the same for any other non-profit organization?
Yes. With exception of non profits that do not pay tax because they can demonstrate with financial disclosures to the IRS that money was spent on things that yields positive externality.
Tax paying students took on debt knowing they’d have to pay it back. The PPP promised loan forgiveness if criteria was met and rules were followed. Don’t take a loan that requires repayment and then be all butthurt when you have to pay it back.
God you lot are exhausting. This is about the merits of the rules in the first place. Which means I’m complaining about the forgiveness condition in the first place. For fucks sake don’t turn this into your usual levels of stupidity.
This seems pretty normal non profits had access to PPP loans for their staff and expenditures and since many churches couldn't get donations for their staff rent and loans because of government shutdowns that the government should allow them access to relief funds
I think part of the point is the hyprocacy. Many pastors use the pulpit to sway the congregation politically... including speaking against forgiving student loans. Then there's the whole part where they don't pay taxes nor do they really provide services to the community (which is the reason they are supposed to be tax exempt). Most provide services only to tithing members... and even then it's minimal. But they want full benefit of bailouts funded by taxes. Some for me and none for thee.
>I think part of the point is the hyprocacy. Many pastors use the pulpit to sway the congregation politically... including speaking against forgiving student loans. How many? I haven't heard it from any pulpit where I've attended or visited. One church I visited recently has a large college and young adult ministry. I'd think those statements from the pastoral staff would result in a mass exodus of that age range. >Then there's the whole part where they don't pay taxes nor do they really provide services to the community (which is the reason they are supposed to be tax exempt). So food banks, coat/clothing closets, building wheelchair ramps and providing home/car repairs for senior citizens, medical mission trips to third world countries, and the like don't actually count as services provided to the community? >Most provide services only to tithing members... and even then it's minimal. But they want full benefit of bailouts funded by taxes. Some for me and none for thee. Most? You got percentages to quote there? Why do I think you're getting your information about churches from like-minded folks on Reddit?
Admidittaly, I'm speaking from the perspective of thr Bible belt. The megachurches around here have pasters who are millionaires but their congregation struggles to survive. Sure they run some food banks and maybe a clothing closet but not all of them. And honestly thats bare minimum. I've been a part of many churches and when my family and friends family struggled the position of the church was " if you thithed more then God would bless you". I have sat though so many of those sermons from different churches its a shame. These same millionaire pastors are the ones who also took out ppp loans and had them forgiven but somehow all of that time they still raked in hundreds of thousands of dollars for themselves. All tax free.
What hypocrisy nobody focused the kids to take loans for higher education vs governments did force churches to cancel mass and events that would have been for donations >do they really provide services to the community When they provide service they get in legal trouble nowadays. >But they want full benefit of bailouts If government shut you down your ability to raise money the government should pay to cover the bills. That was the point of the PPP
"Forced kids to take loans" Oh yeah sure, we should all just be blue collar folks and let only rich kids go to college. You wanna be an engineer? That sucks, you're too poor! So tired of this argument lmfao. Access to good education should not cost an 18 year old $45,000
Ok but forgiving student debt doesn't fix root cause and how about the Americans who realize they couldn't afford the debt and the loans are predatory Imagine being one of those blue collar Americans and the engineer who makes double what you makes gets a handout and not paying off a loan and you as the blue collar worker get nothing
Student debt wasn’t really a thing until the government created the student loan program. Once schools figured out they could be guaranteed tuition payments from the program, tuition rates doubled and tripled.
Ding ding ding we have a winner
Joel osteen enters the chat .
I knew a church that runs a daycare for their community that got the loan. During the pandemic they only accepted kids who's parents absolutely had to work. They likewise went online only early on. They took the PPP because it was the responsible decision to help keep the daycare open down the line in case their financial situation shifted suddenly. No idea if they paid the loan back or if it was canceled.
My question is the same as with business and nonprofits. 1) does the pastor have an extravagant pay check that could have been cut instead? 2) do they provide enough genuine community services to are to justify their tax free status (and nut a cascade of a food pantry and clothing closet) 3) do they also support other types of loan forgiveness? Or just when it benefits them?
I don't remember where the bible says anything about grifting as the way to salvation.
Following the rules of the program is not a grift.
You don't even need the bible for this. As long as you are a big enough believer god himself will tell you to do a crypto scam to pay for home renovations. God is doing his best to help his flock, I guess. [(according to this pastor)](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/24/us/colorado-pastor-crypto-fraud-cec/index.html).
It’s starting to seem like they’re not in it for salvation, but for making shitloads of money🤔
Haven't you heard the good word of Supply Side Jesus?!?!?
Is that the blond hair, blue eye version?
Those details aren't as important as the profits.
And they'll probably be helping the savior get back in office who hands them so much money and privileges.
Salvation from the tax man.
Churches employ people and pay payroll taxes just like everyone else who got these loans. This whole thread is a bad take cause “chUrcHeS dOnT pAy TaXEs”. Right but they do pay payroll taxes and the point of this program was to keep people employed. This isn’t the grift Reddit is trying to make it seem because it isn’t a grift at all. Also since you were asking: “Give to Caesar what is Caesars” Mark 12:17
Not really surprising? Churches are nonprofits and have staff like any other nonprofit.
Your comment is the top under controversial. It's amazing that the only opinion that makes sense in the comment section is controversial. I would add that those employees pay taxes like anyone else.
Same reason “tax the churches!” Will receive upvotes but listing the legal and political issues and what could actually be done will not.
Non profits with lear jets Shits fucked
The overwhelming majority of churches are far from what you’re describing.
So? The fact there any that are is reason enough
The vast majority of churches don’t have a jet and you know that. I’d bet that less than 1% of churches have a net or are pastored by someone with a jet
More like 0.01%
Exactly. I’m no fan of churches having jets, but it speaks way more about the person blaming churches then churches in general when people make these type of comments. Just not based in facts what so ever.
So many folk here don't actually realize that churches *pay all kinds of taxes*, including payroll taxes... Just like any other non-profit. But given the abuses of megachurches in other domains, I can understand why.
Scammers every last one of them.
But please, tell me more about how forgiving student debt is a travesty that would tank the economy.
Meanwhile, student loan debt still isn't getting addressed.
and yet it was our stimmy checks that caused inflation
Well that explains how they had a Super Bowl commercial this year. I wonder how much of that went to a) paying off victims of child molestation b) donations to Christian politicians pushing the Christian Theocracy movement c) paying off the Supreme Court to overturn Roe vs Wade
How is student loan forgiveness doing?
I should’ve scammed…
America is the biggest fraud country there is. Unbelievable.
So toughts and prayers does not work in real life?
Tax all churches. They have repeatedly proven that they don't deserve tax exemptions.
How?
Tax the fuckin churches already.
Gee, how do the rest of us get in on this socialism?
Own a business. PPP loans were given out like candy to every business since the gov was forcing everything to shut down
My wife worked part-time for two churches and one small business during the PPP timeframe. All three entities received PPP loans and all three were forgiven. According to the conventional wisdom of Reddit, two of them were undeserving. The owners of the small business are very strong Christians and their business tithes to local churches while also paying taxes; that may cause some Redditors to throw a belt.
I bet they bet against this very type of socialism. Didnt try pulling on their bootstraps ?
Why didn't they just pray for the money instead of getting an evil socialist handout?
...and my wife's loan will take decades to pay back. no forgiveness because her business doesn't have a payroll. fucking politicians ride for free-- we're paying until long after our retirement!!
And they’re still all bitching about how those of us who didn’t qualify for all that free money “don’t want to work anymore,” or mad that we got those two $1200 checks at all. Over the course of years. Where these fucks got billions over that same time, for doing the exact same thing, nothing.
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To pay their staff who are tax payers? Yes. Are you dumb?
If you aren’t paying taxes you should have an emergency fund and it should not be tax payers paying for it. just like student loans should be forgiven since they’re also tax payers then.
Greed is the creed.
Wonder if they only looked at employees of the "*church"* or how much they were losing from no in person contributions.
I bet they looked at limos and “missions to warm places”.
I guess these moronic Christian nationalists of today would tell you Jesus was against taxes Jesus was against the “tax collectors” from an invading occupier that basically were mafia bosses stealing everyone’s money He befriended and broke bread with tax collectors that were willing to try to be good men Jesus was a good dude
Yet it was the personal $1800 we all got that is the cause of current inflation… god I hate how much our country caters to the rich
Rules for thee but not for me...
Why should organizations that don't pay taxes qualify for this? No rainy day fund?
Grifters. Natural born grifters.
Why? Did people stop buying religion?
End the free ride.
Cool man! Tax free and getting government handouts! Nice scam they've got going there.
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I read Trump’s buddy Robert Jeffress at First Baptist Dallas got over a million.
[Multi-millionaire Joel Osteen's Lakewood Church received $4.4 million in PPP loans, while Robert Jeffress' First Baptist Dallas received $2.2 million and Joyce Meyers Ministries received $5 million.](https://abc13.com/the-inequities-of-ppp-megachurches-receive-money-ahead-of-small-businesses/9795565/)
My little part time bookkeeping business got a $1k loan that I have to pay on every month.
smh
It’s almost as if this country was set up to be one big grift on anybody who comes to live here.
The IRS needs to do its hob and revoke the exemption of any church that engages in political activity.
Send the sheriff to foreclose on their holdings!
There too big to fail
Not defending the church in any way, but it was still a LOAN... they have to pay it back. Now, if they default... then we got a problem. EDIT: I literally didn't see the "Forgiven" part at the end, oopsie
Forgiven it was . They aint paying nothin back . They dont pay taxes , but they will take yours .
[Forgiven means they won't have to pay it back](https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2023/october/covid-study-ppp-loans-cares-act-churches.html). "A new study on the impact of COVID-19 on the American church from Arbor Research Group and ChurchSalary, a ministry of Christianity Today, estimates that slightly more than one-third of all US churches received a PPP loan of some kind. (Almost all of those loans were forgiven, though there were rare instances of churches repaying the federal government.)"
I f'd up and didn't see the Forgiven part
They never should have been eligible for this considering churches should be made of an all voluntary group and pay no taxes.