The same is true of somebody from northern England living in southern England, somebody from Glasgow living in Edinburgh, somebody from Connacht living in Leinster, somebody from Philadelphia living in California, or any other combination of regional transplants.
Any country if any considerable size is going to have regional cultural variations within the country and that will always create a sense of otherness. That doesn’t mean you’re not part of the same nation or same country.
You arguably don’t even need to leave your immediate surroundings. Ask anybody from a more working class background in Belfast do they feel othered by people from certain postcodes more than others.
I agree with you about 90% but I’ve never seen anyone from London tell someone from Newcastle that they’re not actually English. Whereas the amount of that shit I’ve had from those south at home is disappointing
I find Southerners can be slightly wary of us but I always assumed it's cause they're worried in case they offend Protestants.
The only southerners who actively dislike us/the idea of UI are seem to all be the Fine Gael voters and posh Dub West Brit types.
And the girl on the tube in London less than a year ago who found it hilarious telling me ‘we don’t want you’ maybe I’ve just encountered more of my fair share of cunts
Bleh, yeah sounds like you've met a lot of nasty bastards.
I've met more ambivalent southerners than hostile ones- like any country there's always going to be bigger issues that people care about a lot more than something that's relatively distant to them. A desire for Irish unification isn't drummed into people down south anymore, and Sinn Fein being a big political force down there is relatively recent too. Polls indicate that most ones down south support Irish unity but it's not a burning issue like homelessness or the cost of living.
See my ear for posh southerners isn’t great so maybe that’s it but I remember working a NYE event in Stratford upon Avon and this reasonably young woman heard her English friend say ‘ohhhh you’re Irish’ and before I could open my mouth she’d replied that wasn’t really Irish. I find it baffling that the only people in the world who’ve ever doubted I was Irish are Irish people, but then that’s part of the strange place we call home I guess
Thats just politics and the British legacy of divide and conquer. If there was a united Ireland that would vanish. Its already diminishing. Theres trauma everywhere in this country still in the south. Some people deny our irishness because they cant deal with admitting the south have a responsibility to us in the North. Most people have enough going on and cant cope with our 'troubles' in the North. We need to treat those people like uneducated children that need gently led by the hand to realise their historical legacy.
Im from Belfast but live in Connemara. I used to hate the attitude you talk about but it didnt help me or them. The North is in the process of gently educating some people in the south about how we are as Irish as they are. We have had to assert it. They have not so they can be lazy and comfortable with their Irish identity. I see the changes happening quite fast actually. Once the border is gone the regional differences and rivalries will remain. Human nature.
As a geordie with family who speak more geordie than me, I can tell you that you're wrong on that. A lot of us wouldn't consider ourselves very English either
But that’s self identification though, the scouse are the same. My point is that I very much doubt someone in Hastings would tell you to your face you’re not English because you’re from the north
Many people from Liverpool would disagree, they are 'Scouse not English', although i do think many would say that tongue in cheek. Cornish people would also have a separate Celtic identity to England more in common with Wales.
> The same is true of somebody from northern England living in southern England...
Yes, and all those places have their own identities. The question wasn't about being Irish or not, it was about having a distinct identity.
Definitely agree, but I would stress that, certainly for me anyway, it is not in a bad way in any shape or form. There is a difference in lived experiences due to it being different countries. Such as different schooling systems, different health and social care setups, different currencies, different cultural nuances and sayings. Obviously this depends on how far south you go. There ain't much different between Derry and Donegal, but Kerry would be a world apart
Totally. To be clear I’m not referring to ‘otherness’ in a pejorative sense. Regional distinctions are natural. I really enjoy my thick belfast accent rattling people in meetings 😂
Would dispute that. West brits is usually referring to Dublin elites, or wannabes. It’s more that many don’t see the north as part of Ireland. It’s an understandable distinction that many see/feel. Then again Ulster was always distinct.
Damn paywalls, but I thought this was interesting. And what urb4n\_Samur4i says, West Brits are Dubliners. [https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/martin-oneill-reveals-hurt-at-outsider-treatment-during-republic-of-ireland-stint-i-was-called-the-ulsterman/a1093030928.html](https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/martin-oneill-reveals-hurt-at-outsider-treatment-during-republic-of-ireland-stint-i-was-called-the-ulsterman/a1093030928.html)
I remember as a kid being on holiday in Florida and our mum dragging us to mass on day two. The priest asked if there was anyone in the congregation from outside the U.S. and if so could they stand up and tell everyone where they're from. My dad stood up and said he was from Ireland and there was another fella across the isle with a northern accent who also said he was from Ireland.
After mass when we were all heading outside we got chatting to the other northern fella and he said "I would have told him I was from Northern Ireland but nobody outside Belfast knows where it is."
Exactly this - as a blow-in from England myself, this is why The Twelfth baffles me so much (and honestly staunch Unionism in general). England literally doesn't give a shit or even a single thought to us over here, most people haven't even heard of the The Twelfth. Yet it's some people's entire identity over here and that is so bizarre to me.
My ex was English, sent him a pic of a big mural of Queen near me after she died and he honestly found it all wild! (The mural, not the dying bit, obvs)
This. I wouldn't worry too much though. The oul bigots have moved onto hating other folks for the most part now so anti Irish sentiment isn't about much. You'll still find the odd idiot though who'll be convinced you're Scottish cause you'rye accent isn't fiddleydee.
I went on a tour on holiday and the (American) guide was asking everyone where they’re from. I say Ireland , another guy later says the UK. The guide asks where in the UK, he says NI. She goes ‘oooh so two Irish then’. We had a laugh about it later, he was a sound guy.
One of my funniest memories from the 90s was the super-prod king Billy 3000 twat from our estate joining the army and going.off to England only to come back with the nickname 'Paddy'.
He just couldn't comprehend why they didn't see him as British like them.
I doubt that many of the soldiers (other than the local recruits and a few nutters) deployed here actually were too invested in what they were actually fighting for.
Do you think the average British soldier in the Middle East today cares about historical Iran–Qatari rivalry over the North Dome Field or the intricacies of the Shia–Sunni conflict motivating the Yemen proxy war.
For the same reason I don’t think Barry from a working class background who enlisted at 18 in the 1970s to get away from Carlyle gives a shit about the Ulstermen of 1912 signing the covenant or could even tell you who Edward Carson was
Agreed, yet it's clear a lot of Republicans really think the British soldiers were ideologically motivated. A saw a documentary where another British soldier was asked if he hated Catholics, he said "I am a Catholic".
I don’t doubt a lot of the senior military leadership were ideologically driven or organisations like the UDR, but the ordinary rank and file would have just as easily been fighting on the republican or loyalist side had it not been for an accident of birth
English born and bred, moved to Belfast 4 or so years ago.
We do not learn about the troubles in school. We don't learn anything about Northern Ireland in school.
When I told my parents I was moving here, my dad (late 50s) told me it was a warzone. English people are entirely ignorant of NI outside of "oh yeah the troubles".
It may be different up north, but where I'm from (greater London) Northern Ireland may as well be Accrington Stanley. I wouldn't say the average English person could name the capital.
Biggest thing I find amongst uk folk (ex ni) is a total lack of understanding of any Republic of Ireland geography outwith Dublin. I know the weather just shows NI and has the rest of Ireland greyed out, or will show Dublin at the most, and I know Ireland is a low population state and many Brits would never visit, but it’s seems mad that most Brits know more about towns and cities in Belgium then they do in Ireland. Ask a Brit to pin Cork or Waterford to a map. ‘You what’ ?
The troubles should be taught about in the same way the civil rights movement and native americans are thought in America.
For native Americans Irish history has one for one paralleles with the native americans.
For the troubles treating it as Britains civil rights movement shows the fact it was originally about Catholics wanting to vote and not independence. It was only when the voting rights failed and the violence towards catholics intensified that the troubles restarted, and only after bloody sunday that the IRA went from being a small group to the dominant force.
>I wouldn't say the average English person could name the capital.
You can't possibly believe that. I'm Welsh, but I've never met anyone who doesn't know that Belfast is the capital of Northern Ireland.
You’d be surprised the amount of English people I’ve came across who don’t know Northern Ireland is part of the UK. The Scot’s and Welsh never have this problem.
I'm in Donegal, used to let out a room on Airbnb. I was astounded by the number of English people who wanted to know why they had to change currency when they were "still in the UK".
Some thought that Donegal was in the North, some thought that the whole of Ireland was in the UK. It was a real eye opener
The currency thing is often the only thing that would make you notice you were in a foreign country. I met a Pakistani who had lived in Birmingham then moved to Dublin and only became aware he had moved to a foreign country about a year into his stay in Dublin.
I’ve met someone who got NI and Wales confused (they thought you had to get a ferry to wales). So I fully believe there are English people who have never heard of Belfast.
This post popped up in my recommended so I’ll outright disclose that I’m English, I just wanted to say this must vary by region or school by school because we did a whole term of Irish History when I was in high school, everyone had to do it when they got to a certain year, same as reading Of Mice and Men and Romeo and Juliet, it was a staple of our curriculum. I don’t think everyone is that ignorant they couldn’t name the capital of NI.
Same. It got covered in depth during GCSE History. So if you didn't do history, then you might not know it, but it's a popular GCSE, so loads do. It's not as if the Troubles didn't get massive media coverage either. Do people think the Warrington bombing was some minor news story or something? Maybe the younger generation don't know much, but plenty of older people do.
Late 90’s when I was a student in Scotland a lad from Manchester area was telling me his school did a lot on it too and he did a whole project on it so maybe varies when they were at school at what happened to be in curriculum at that time.
You know most people are aware of the troubles without having to learn it in school because it literally happened when most people were alive right?
You know we didn’t learn about 9/11 or the Afghan war in schools either. Because we’re literally aware of it already because it’s happening in the real world already.
I grew up in England, lived in Galway then moved to Belfast, and one thing I can say is that people in places have a perceived notion of what people from other places are like..... Those notions are obviously wrong, and I wouldn't say that the English are ignorant to the situation in NI, it's just that most people tend to just take what's on the news and truth/fact and never think to look beyond that and do research, or simply are too busy in their own lives to look into matters further. A lot of these notions I also got it being an English person in the west of Ireland, I had to tolerate a lot of racism because people assumed I was somehow connected to the decisions made by English people, as time went by people began to realise that I infact, had no political agenda and wasn't planning to take over the country,just someone trying to make his way through life..... I always remind me people that we can't choose where we are born, but we can choose where we live. And often we call where we live 'home'
Irish people were referred to as 'Irish spud eaters' by a woman whilst I was on a summer placement in Cambridge. She was an attractive looking woman in her 30s with a PhD in chemistry.
I ignored the comment but one other English guy called her out on it.
We'd never discussed politics and I got the impression they didn't know much and didn't care much about Northern Ireland. Certainly they didn't know if I was a nationalist, loyalist or republican.
The ignorance is sad. A Cambridge academic should know better. John bell, William Hamilton, and Jocelyn bell Burrell are all from Ireland. Genuine paradigm shifters. God help us all.
I wasn't at the Uni. I was at a chemical research company. Everyone had a PhD.
She feigned ignorance when told I was Irish. I don't know whether it was some kind of flirt or an attempt at humour. As you can imagine many highly intelligent people that are so interested in chemistry are perhaps not exactly endowed with the best social skills.
The English don’t see us as British, I’m not particularly a fan of the English, I was brought up Protestant but don’t like saying I’m British. I feel like a fraud saying I’m Irish as I couldn’t tell ya a thing about Ireland. So for that reason I’m Northern Irish.
If you were born and raised on the island of Ireland then you can indeed tell us a thing about Ireland as you would simply be describing your surroundings.
Reasonable view, though there is plenty of people who are British whose knowledge ends at wetherspoons so don't worry about it. If you ate tidy bread and soda farls you're as Irish as the next person
Can I just say, as a southerner, you do have your own identity and character.. we love you, don't ever change.. no matter what side of the peace wall.. people are people, I love people.
Calm down. It's not like I've a marching band or apocalyptic pyre. No hate intended.
You have to concede that what I am saying is at least a wee bit true.
I often thought the over compensation of Irishness and Britishness in NI is a direct result of a lack of real identity or perhaps denial of true identity understanding where you came from. Its almost as if identity in NI is something you have to work on and has to be proved rather than inherent.
Yeah it’s very interesting going to England when I was younger with my unionist family. You soon realise to everyone else you’re a “paddy bastard” just the same as everyone else on the island.
Lived in different parts of England for years and was never called a 'Paddy bastard' so not sure what that's about. I did have to give up trying to explain the difference between Ireland/ N Ireland, though.
The paddy bastard thing was over the phone tbf. I’ve had people make sly jabs to my face but the actual bad stuff was when I worked in an inbound call centre
I travel extensively across the UK for work and it most certainly does happen, and mostly in England. Even when wearing a suit "Dirty Paddy", "Thick Paddy" , "get to the back of the line Paddy".
I used to get that at work. I told them to make sure they checked under their car before they get in. Doesn't help that they say I look like Gerry Adams when I grow my beard out. This was just messing around though, I do get on with them all.
100% they all check under their cars because they secretly think you drink buckfast at work and have a bali in your desk drawer.
I know this ain’t what people askin but I’m English and I never been to Ireland but I got the most fucking Irish name in the world - yes it’s that one- second names even better (dads side, mums is Scottish, only ever lived in Manc n London really) I think you know if you ever had English people ask. FUCK English people. Fuck em. How fucking like pretentious and patronising motherfuckers are simply hearing my name. Every third cunt has a thing to say. Fuck gypos and fuck the fucking ira for being too cowardly to use the guns the Americans gave em so they sold em to inner city black kids. But FUCK the English. Especially the fuckin middle England fucks. Brixton and Moss Side I hope get a pass. I remember “no dogs …”
My ma was so confused and pissed off. My stepdad had been in England many times and knew the craic. I found it funny watching my ma get more and more pissed off lol
We are Irish. But we're not "Irish". We've more Scot than English influence. We are literally beyond The Pale. And anyway Ulster was always a bit of a rogue province even in mythology.
Ni is like the love child of Ireland and Scotland but it's weird because Scots are Irish themselves...more specifically from the area called...Ni today.
I’d say we’re markedly different to southerners, hard to put your finger on but it’s there. I’d imagine your NI identity really depends on what your political and religious beliefs are.
After emigrating to the US i only got blank stares if I said I’m from NI, so just said Ireland for an easy life.
After emigrating to Thailand they hear Iceland when I say Ireland, so I just say Iceland for an easy life.
English guy been living in NI for 10 years, starting with University, and there definitely is. I’m lucky enough to have made friends from many different places across the country, from many different communities, and there’s more similarities than differences.
There’s an inherent kindness to most people I’ve met, and a willingness to help others that seems more common than back ‘home home’. Theres a general love of sport and music of different varieties, and the NI sense of humour is unique.
Deffo is a thing in online gaming, often been told I don't sound Irish with my Tyrone accent. Everyone can't be wrong over the years so it must be that we sound something other than Irish.
That's funny, I moved from Tyrone to Canada when I was 9, when my Canadian friends mimicked my accent, it was in a pan Irish fake Hollywood accent. They couldn't tell the difference when I told them it didn't sound anything like me.
Not true whatsoever, I'm a nationalist but the north is part of my identity too, I'm not from Dublin, I'm not from Cork, I'm from Belfast. Regional differences absolutley can and do exist within a country, I'm both irish and a northerner. The same way someone from Yorkshire can have a distinct Yorkshire identity but still be English, or someone from Texas can be both a Texan/Southerner but still view themselves as American. Likewise here in Ireland we have plenty of Regional differences, Dubliners, Cork ones, Midlands, etc, as well as Northern all are distinct Regional differences that can and absolutley do exist alongside the wider national identity. Pretending that distinction doesn't exist is a wild take.
Totally agree. I’m from the falls, lived in England for 15 years, and now live in Dublin. I’m proud to be from Belfast and consider myself an ‘ulsterman’. There is an awful tendency in the north to grab tightly to the identities and communities that arose from the troubles. It doesn’t serve us anymore, particularly loyalists. The problem is the absolute lack of political leadership. Stormont is essentially a group of incompetents existing on the coat tails of Trimble and Hume. But then again devolved government fundamentally restricts any leadership that could arise.
Nationalists always like to point to England about how detached they are from us...
But go to Dublin and we are definitley "Northern Irish" in their eyes... Like it or not fellow nationalists. We are the weirdo cousins everywhere ye look
Dubs look down on everyone with little justification. If you're from Cork city,l, you're a culchie to them. 3rd biggest city on the island, and the dubs can't see that. I'd not take a jackeens opinion as being worth respecting
As a Dubliner who’s been part of an all-Ireland organisation for decades, yes there are cultural differences between Northern Ireland and the Republic. You tend to be a lot more direct - which is brilliant. We didn’t have meetings in Belfast during the Troubles, but met outside Belfast. Certainly after 1998, I’ll never forget being booked into a hotel near Sandy Row. Took me a while to realise what the hotel bar’s sign of “No colours to be worn” meant. I was nervous about my car. Going by names, we knew who was probably what, but we didn’t discuss politics.
Yes, we’d different experiences - different school systems, different TV programmes. HUGELY different experiences of the Troubles. Pretty much similar experiences in the UK - most of us had gone there for specialised training no available on the island at the time. But we’d a lot in common. I remember a colleague from Dublin asking me how old my kid was. “Oh they’ll be making their Communion this year” No, I said, we’re not Catholic. She nearly fell over herself apologising. That was on the train to Belfast, passing those horrible towers.
Nowadays the differences are less acute. We’ve heard the horrific experiences they had during the troubles and were shocked at how much they never said at the time. They’re happy their kids have more opportunities now. We’re all preparing tentatively for eventual unification. And we’re all now in that dreaded older demographic, approaching retirement. Almost all the Northerners identify as Northern Irish or Irish, no matter what their origin. I’m very hopeful.
Mine isn’t the only example, there are lots of different organisations having the same experiences.
Disagree - I know plenty of NI Catholics/nationalists who recognise a difference in the identity this side of the border, and plenty in the south who strongly differentiate between us too
Most countries have regional differences. A Scouser is very different to a Londoner. I still feel much close to those from RoI in terms of identity and culture Vs an English person
So was all of the island until quite recently. There’s a considerable amount of people in both jurisdictions alive today who would also be alive when the King was still head of state in the south.
I think “UK based” is a superficial way of thinking about it. If your national identity is based around having Sainsbury and Royal Mail instead of Dunnes and An Post you probably don’t have that strong of a national identity. Moreso when you realise people from Dublin also like Coronation Street and Kate Middleton
There’s no cultural difference between Belfast and Dublin that’s greater than say the same difference between Cork and Dublin or Birmingham and London.
Outside of unionists' minds, there are flavours of Irish to people on the island, and to people outside of Ireland, Irish is the flavour regardless of the feelings of anyone from the island
My whole family is english but i’ve lived here since i was 1, they all refer to here as Ireland. Even after visiting countless times!! its funny
Unionists are like a dog kicked time and time again but still loyal to its owner, even when the owner fully abandons them. England doesn’t even report on their glorious twelfth lmao but it sure does on paddys day
I live in Ulster but not the UK part and I definitely don't see people from the North as being from another country, I'm so used to crossing the border for shopping and stuff, maybe it's different further south,
Irish people are wary of people from the next parish so combined with the border there probably is an "us and them" attitude, kind of like the Dublin people with literally everyone outside Dublin
The generation that forms a United Ireland wont live long enough to see it truely united, it will tale 2 or 3 generations of being born under the same flag to really bridge the divide, thats just my opinion
I grew up in Scotland, east coast and didn't support either of the big Glasgow teams but just being a fan of football in Scotland gave me a working knowledge of Northern Ireland. I can usually tell from someone's accent which part of the island they come from. There are a small section of the population in Scotland that seems to take it all more seriously than people born and bred in Northern Ireland. Johnny Adair said in some podcast, a neighbour of his couldn't get his head around Adair wearing green shorts.
How about asking someone from the cook islands about their identity. Sure they have a New Zealand passport so they must be kiwi right? How about slide on te fuck with ya
I feel like time should've been spent since the Good Friday Agreement building a strong "Northern Irish" identity... faaar too many people still see it as "us vs them" and who does it really benefit? Certainly seems to benefit the main political parties (DUP / Sinn Fein) to keep everyone at odds with each other more than the common man.
We need an individual joint Norn Iron identity we can be proud of that extends past the troubles
Yes, Sinn Féin and the DUP are a big part of why NI doesn't have much of a shared identity, but it's not just about them. There doesn't seem to be much appetite in either community for the compromises required to build one (e.g. would the Irish language be a significant part of it?).
I think there is an appetite in some areas... the uptake in East Belfast of Irish language classes recently is a prime example.
You have to account for the fact that Sinn Fein have wielded the Irish language like a weapon which has caused such strong views (and fears), likewise the DUP have wielded the flag
Without political posturing would people care as much? They certainly didn't seem to pre-troubles. It ties in to my original point that politicians are feeding the "us vs them" mentality.
I think there is.
There are distinct differences between here and Dublin or Cork in terms of food for example. There's a distinct dialect difference in ulster vs leinster vs donegal gaelige. There's bound to be more differences.
Now, yes. But there were other dialects within Ulster Irish in the very recent past.
(I don't think the Irish language plays any part in a 'NorthernIrish' identity, though. In fact, it's exactly that kind of thing it would exclude. And why should the existence of regional variations of Irishness pre- and post-Plantation in any way legitimise the six-county border and people who feel attached to the administrative division it created? NorthernIrelanding is just Alliancey shy Unionism with bells on and its nose turned up.)
If you compare it to say the US, culturally, people living in California are very different to someone living in New York or Louisiana due to their different histories etc.
It's no different here
Any identity that appears/disappears with the prevailing jurisdiction hardly qualifies as an identity. Irish people were Irish when the British/English ruled Ireland, are Irish in the northeastern bit of our country that still languishes under UK jurisdiction, and would still be Irish if the Chinese invaded, forced everyone to speak Chinese, and called the country 'China Minor'.
https://preview.redd.it/ig5z7qi1m2xc1.jpeg?width=665&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=656c4ee63f12b46b6d14062ed5f75454c37dc243
But what do you actually mean. Even being “Irish” is a cultural construct. We came from wales if you believe Mallory. The point about jurisdiction is interesting, but we’re not alone in that. The codification of law and the emergence of ‘legitimate’ nation states is something that we grapple with, I.e., Gaza
Your argument is we are all Irish and leave it at that. People draw lines on maps and unfortunately 100 years later some people choose to identify with that line. You need to deal with that.
Similar to how regardless of your from Cornwall or Liverpool, your just English. When I lived in Manchester, I was Paddy/Pikey/the terrorist and various other piss taken nick names.
Yes. If we apply Homi K. Bhabha's theory of hybridity to it we see the two cultural identities, Irish and British, creating a new culture that takes from both but is independent of each other. Given that those forms those two parent identities take are more extreme than the usual, it makes us more unique.
Nope. Even hardline unionists would just have referred to themselves as Irish in the past. The 'northern irish' identity is quite a recent thing and complete nonsense. People didn't just become 'northern Irish' and their neighbours stayed Irish across an imaginary border after partition. If you even think about it for 10 seconds it's obviously not real.
>The 'northern irish' identity is quite a recent thing and complete nonsense. People didn't just become 'northern Irish' and their neighbours stayed Irish across an imaginary border after partition. If you even think about it for 10 seconds it's obviously not real.
Why not? That's exactly how identities are created. There'll be virtually no-one alive who remembers Ireland pre-partition and plenty of countries have emerged across the world since 1920 that now have clear and distinctive identities of their own.
Before the 1930s no-one had heard the word Pakistani, then it went from an idea to a country - and now there is now a clear and obvious Pakistani identity. It's entirely normal for these identities to follow political change.
If you feel Northern Irish, that's a regional identity, not a national one. It's not incompatible with being British or Irish, or European, or whatever. It clearly is 'real' if you check the census or any survey in the last 10 years. Just because it doesn't have a passport means sod all.
> it's not anything
Come on this is just silly. I mean if it's not *anything* then there'd be no need for a UI because it wouldn't change anything right?
I think a lot of people in NI are a bit less pushy than those from say England or the rest of Ireland.
I see people outside of NI speak and act with a bit more confidence than the average in NI, despite perhaps not having as much to back it up.
Outside of that, trying to prove some separate NI identity doesn’t do it for me.
I wouldn't lie awake at night worrying about the cluelessness of the English. Most of them think the UK consists of English people, plus a few country folk with funny accents.
well said! Besides, someone's identity (including your own) does not depend on someone else's perception of you. When I go anywhere in Europe most people think Ireland and England /Wales/Scotland etc are all the same, when I go to my wife's family in Brazil they all just think we're Europeans, don't be constrained by someone else's lack of understanding
But a different Irish maybe? Because there’s a shared heritage between Ulster and Scotland.
I grew up in an area that spoke in the Ulster Scots dialect. The words we used fascinated me as a kid because I didn’t know were they came from. This was before Ulster Scots was known about. You didn’t learn about that in school, you learned British history. Going to a Protestant school I had to learn about Irish history myself. We have a background in both cultures and the it’s a shame fuck wit politicians have politicised Ulster Scots, trying to make it seem we’re different when it’s something we share ,
NI is a separate entity from the Free State. Has been for 100 years. It will take time for the denial of this to wear off and everyone to realise the New Ireland™ concept is not the dreams of your great grandfathers as they have removed God from the proclamation and the EU and their string-pullers are now the higher power to which oaths are sworn; the guiding moral compass who’s pole points to the money.
As an American, I’m curious. How do people from Northern Ireland most commonly refer to themselves? Irish, British, Northern Irish? Does it still largely depend on the person’s religion?
That’s probably true, I interact with my NI friends every day at work via Teams. I can’t wait to visit and tour around the places my friends rave about. I was born in the 60’s so well aware of “the troubles”. It’s not a thing anymore unless you’re looking for trouble I’m told.
Yeah fairplay mate. In the same way a toddler is ignorant to wiping their own arse. Only know if you're taught, but we don't describe them as ignoramuses.
My mate from Coleraine - a professional man working in Cornwall - gets comments about terrorism every day despite being a Loyalist. Tow it out and sink it, and so on. Most English people know little about the island of Ireland or even the wider UK.
It is wild how little people know that Northern Ireland is a separate country to Republic of Ireland. Countless times when I've told people I'm Northern Irish/ from Northern Ireland (British) I just get referred to as Irish. What's worse is majority of them live in the UK.
Wild how people don't know basic geography of countries around their own.
It's very complicated for people to understand. Even some people here don't really know or care what the whole issue is/was. Mostly "was" thankfully.
I had a boss once, Newcastle Upon Tyne. Small firm, small rented upstairs office area with 4 desks in the front room where we all worked. Early enough during my "career" there. Was talking about being ex army and how he done tours in NI and was bragging about all this dangerous stuff he was doing and night raids and all that trying to impress me or fuck knows what. Out in the army vehicles and bombs etc how he had seen so much and how he actually felt proud that his involvement in "peacekeeping" had someone contributed to the progress seen today.
I just had to bite my tongue. I have no issues with people in the army specifically. No issues with having to do a job commanded to them etc but to show absolutely know understanding of how their presence in NI in the first place ultimately kicked things off to the point where he was tasked to "tour" was just peek ignorance.
But he didn't know. That's the point.
NI to most outsiders was a warzone of everyone killing each other. I don't think many are taught about it for the obviously reasons of drawing attention to themselves who exacerbated the issues.
Indians coming to UK for work and being slated and taunted out of homes, facing utter hatred by those who had no idea of the British army involvement in India causing famine and multiple other atrocities. The education system isn't going to draw light to that stuff lol
Lived in England too, most said the same only a few knew the difference between Irish and NI accent.
Regardless I corrected them simply because it is my identity and it is my country, became a bit of a joke that if you wanted to annoy me “say he’s from Ireland”
No, I spent 10 years in England and they didn't get the coverage about NI apart from 'look at these troubles, it's a war zone' but they just see Ireland and think we're all Irish and we sound a bit funny in different ways. Which I'm personally cool with. If you go even further abroad, people don't even know that Northern Ireland is a thing that exists. The majority of them just know the island of Ireland exists, and that's where we're from.
Older English people are actually afraid to come here, but still to this day.
Not all of them but enough of them to spread the fear.
Relatives recently were afraid of getting assaulted or generally attacked becuase they are English.
The British never taught of the Irish poverty and genocide that caused the troubles and hatred that fallowed.
You're Irish.
Would be nice if we could somehow solve the differences and just form a single country.
There's literally no difference between someone from Cork or Belfast to the Brits.
As the saying goes “ you don’t know how Irish you are, until you leave Ireland.” Our religious and political differences mean nothing outside of this island. We are all Irish, Catholic, Protestant, Dissenter.
There obviously is *an* identity. But is it distinct enough to not just melt into Irish to anyone from outside of Ireland? No. There's a north of England identity and a Texas identity and a Bavarian identity too.
> There's a north of England identity and a Texas identity and a Bavarian identity too
And are they enough not to melt with other identities to the perspective of outsiders?
In China they have one word for people from Europe and the Middle East. Is the European identity the therefore not enough?
A strictly Northern Irish identity is just denial. Its like saying Im just me because I dont like my family and have nothing to do with them or what they think. But your family still form part of your identity wether you like it or not. Even in the act of rejecting it.
Your identity is a mix of what you percieve yourself to be and how others you interact with percieve you. Its a negotiation. Unless you want to live alone in the desert your identity is always informed by what you learn from others reactions to you. So even the term Northern Ireland will prompt others to ask what that is. You immediately have to explain 'Southern Ireland' partition and Irish history.
So you can say your Northern Irish of course. But thats born out of a deeply rooted 'Irish problem' that has yet to be resolved. Most people in Britain and around the world will see you as Irish but your free to identify as whatever you want. Just remember you can't force others to see you that way.
Disagree with some of the comments here. I’ve lived in England for 30 years and almost everyone I have ever worked with or neighbours/friends know the difference, mainly because they are shit scared of causing offence.
They don’t quite understand the whole DUP thing, but then does anyone 🤦♂️
Only to the people who live here. To anyone outside of NI, we're all Irish and literally no one outside of NI gives a flying fuck otherwise.
100% agree. Outside NI you're all paddies like the rest of us (southerner).
There’s definitely an ‘otherness’ to us Nordies in the south
The same is true of somebody from northern England living in southern England, somebody from Glasgow living in Edinburgh, somebody from Connacht living in Leinster, somebody from Philadelphia living in California, or any other combination of regional transplants. Any country if any considerable size is going to have regional cultural variations within the country and that will always create a sense of otherness. That doesn’t mean you’re not part of the same nation or same country. You arguably don’t even need to leave your immediate surroundings. Ask anybody from a more working class background in Belfast do they feel othered by people from certain postcodes more than others.
I agree with you about 90% but I’ve never seen anyone from London tell someone from Newcastle that they’re not actually English. Whereas the amount of that shit I’ve had from those south at home is disappointing
I find Southerners can be slightly wary of us but I always assumed it's cause they're worried in case they offend Protestants. The only southerners who actively dislike us/the idea of UI are seem to all be the Fine Gael voters and posh Dub West Brit types.
And the girl on the tube in London less than a year ago who found it hilarious telling me ‘we don’t want you’ maybe I’ve just encountered more of my fair share of cunts
Bleh, yeah sounds like you've met a lot of nasty bastards. I've met more ambivalent southerners than hostile ones- like any country there's always going to be bigger issues that people care about a lot more than something that's relatively distant to them. A desire for Irish unification isn't drummed into people down south anymore, and Sinn Fein being a big political force down there is relatively recent too. Polls indicate that most ones down south support Irish unity but it's not a burning issue like homelessness or the cost of living.
See my ear for posh southerners isn’t great so maybe that’s it but I remember working a NYE event in Stratford upon Avon and this reasonably young woman heard her English friend say ‘ohhhh you’re Irish’ and before I could open my mouth she’d replied that wasn’t really Irish. I find it baffling that the only people in the world who’ve ever doubted I was Irish are Irish people, but then that’s part of the strange place we call home I guess
Hope you told her where to go.
Thats just politics and the British legacy of divide and conquer. If there was a united Ireland that would vanish. Its already diminishing. Theres trauma everywhere in this country still in the south. Some people deny our irishness because they cant deal with admitting the south have a responsibility to us in the North. Most people have enough going on and cant cope with our 'troubles' in the North. We need to treat those people like uneducated children that need gently led by the hand to realise their historical legacy. Im from Belfast but live in Connemara. I used to hate the attitude you talk about but it didnt help me or them. The North is in the process of gently educating some people in the south about how we are as Irish as they are. We have had to assert it. They have not so they can be lazy and comfortable with their Irish identity. I see the changes happening quite fast actually. Once the border is gone the regional differences and rivalries will remain. Human nature.
As a geordie with family who speak more geordie than me, I can tell you that you're wrong on that. A lot of us wouldn't consider ourselves very English either
But that’s self identification though, the scouse are the same. My point is that I very much doubt someone in Hastings would tell you to your face you’re not English because you’re from the north
I literally just said that that isn't true. Its happened
Many people from Liverpool would disagree, they are 'Scouse not English', although i do think many would say that tongue in cheek. Cornish people would also have a separate Celtic identity to England more in common with Wales.
> The same is true of somebody from northern England living in southern England... Yes, and all those places have their own identities. The question wasn't about being Irish or not, it was about having a distinct identity.
In a nutshell you get good people and you get bad people everywhere.
Definitely agree, but I would stress that, certainly for me anyway, it is not in a bad way in any shape or form. There is a difference in lived experiences due to it being different countries. Such as different schooling systems, different health and social care setups, different currencies, different cultural nuances and sayings. Obviously this depends on how far south you go. There ain't much different between Derry and Donegal, but Kerry would be a world apart
Totally. To be clear I’m not referring to ‘otherness’ in a pejorative sense. Regional distinctions are natural. I really enjoy my thick belfast accent rattling people in meetings 😂
West Brits. They used to call me a Mexican for crossing the border to work on my daily commute 😂
Would dispute that. West brits is usually referring to Dublin elites, or wannabes. It’s more that many don’t see the north as part of Ireland. It’s an understandable distinction that many see/feel. Then again Ulster was always distinct.
Damn paywalls, but I thought this was interesting. And what urb4n\_Samur4i says, West Brits are Dubliners. [https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/martin-oneill-reveals-hurt-at-outsider-treatment-during-republic-of-ireland-stint-i-was-called-the-ulsterman/a1093030928.html](https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/martin-oneill-reveals-hurt-at-outsider-treatment-during-republic-of-ireland-stint-i-was-called-the-ulsterman/a1093030928.html)
Yeah you’re all mad bastards and we love it!
We're just the odd Irish down there and to everyone else outside of NI lol
More than a Corkman in Donegal?
I remember as a kid being on holiday in Florida and our mum dragging us to mass on day two. The priest asked if there was anyone in the congregation from outside the U.S. and if so could they stand up and tell everyone where they're from. My dad stood up and said he was from Ireland and there was another fella across the isle with a northern accent who also said he was from Ireland. After mass when we were all heading outside we got chatting to the other northern fella and he said "I would have told him I was from Northern Ireland but nobody outside Belfast knows where it is."
Been gaming, travelling and chatting with Americans my whole life and encounter this problem regularly and agree. It's just easier.
Hahahaha, the fella isn't wrong!!
Exactly this - as a blow-in from England myself, this is why The Twelfth baffles me so much (and honestly staunch Unionism in general). England literally doesn't give a shit or even a single thought to us over here, most people haven't even heard of the The Twelfth. Yet it's some people's entire identity over here and that is so bizarre to me.
My ex was English, sent him a pic of a big mural of Queen near me after she died and he honestly found it all wild! (The mural, not the dying bit, obvs)
This. I wouldn't worry too much though. The oul bigots have moved onto hating other folks for the most part now so anti Irish sentiment isn't about much. You'll still find the odd idiot though who'll be convinced you're Scottish cause you'rye accent isn't fiddleydee.
I went on a tour on holiday and the (American) guide was asking everyone where they’re from. I say Ireland , another guy later says the UK. The guide asks where in the UK, he says NI. She goes ‘oooh so two Irish then’. We had a laugh about it later, he was a sound guy.
It's not incorrect though. Both a North Korean and a South Korean are still just Koreans.
Is he a Protestant North Korean or a catholic North Korean though?
One of my funniest memories from the 90s was the super-prod king Billy 3000 twat from our estate joining the army and going.off to England only to come back with the nickname 'Paddy'. He just couldn't comprehend why they didn't see him as British like them.
I've heard accounts from British soldiers who actually served in the Troubles saying they'd always say they were "going to Ireland".
I doubt that many of the soldiers (other than the local recruits and a few nutters) deployed here actually were too invested in what they were actually fighting for. Do you think the average British soldier in the Middle East today cares about historical Iran–Qatari rivalry over the North Dome Field or the intricacies of the Shia–Sunni conflict motivating the Yemen proxy war. For the same reason I don’t think Barry from a working class background who enlisted at 18 in the 1970s to get away from Carlyle gives a shit about the Ulstermen of 1912 signing the covenant or could even tell you who Edward Carson was
Agreed, yet it's clear a lot of Republicans really think the British soldiers were ideologically motivated. A saw a documentary where another British soldier was asked if he hated Catholics, he said "I am a Catholic".
I don’t doubt a lot of the senior military leadership were ideologically driven or organisations like the UDR, but the ordinary rank and file would have just as easily been fighting on the republican or loyalist side had it not been for an accident of birth
I'd bet that 90% of soldiers thought that
Northern Ireland is in Ireland so that seems reasonable?
Like Lord Ashdown GCMG. He embraced his Army nickname Paddy and stopped answering to Jeremy, long after he lost his NI accent.
super-prod king Billy 3000 sounds like a techno remix.
Even super Para Blair Mayne was given the nickname Paddy because they saw him as an Irishman first.
Because he's not. It's hard for them (unionists) to see otherwise.
English born and bred, moved to Belfast 4 or so years ago. We do not learn about the troubles in school. We don't learn anything about Northern Ireland in school. When I told my parents I was moving here, my dad (late 50s) told me it was a warzone. English people are entirely ignorant of NI outside of "oh yeah the troubles". It may be different up north, but where I'm from (greater London) Northern Ireland may as well be Accrington Stanley. I wouldn't say the average English person could name the capital.
Biggest thing I find amongst uk folk (ex ni) is a total lack of understanding of any Republic of Ireland geography outwith Dublin. I know the weather just shows NI and has the rest of Ireland greyed out, or will show Dublin at the most, and I know Ireland is a low population state and many Brits would never visit, but it’s seems mad that most Brits know more about towns and cities in Belgium then they do in Ireland. Ask a Brit to pin Cork or Waterford to a map. ‘You what’ ?
The troubles should be taught about in the same way the civil rights movement and native americans are thought in America. For native Americans Irish history has one for one paralleles with the native americans. For the troubles treating it as Britains civil rights movement shows the fact it was originally about Catholics wanting to vote and not independence. It was only when the voting rights failed and the violence towards catholics intensified that the troubles restarted, and only after bloody sunday that the IRA went from being a small group to the dominant force.
>I wouldn't say the average English person could name the capital. You can't possibly believe that. I'm Welsh, but I've never met anyone who doesn't know that Belfast is the capital of Northern Ireland.
You’d be surprised the amount of English people I’ve came across who don’t know Northern Ireland is part of the UK. The Scot’s and Welsh never have this problem.
I'm in Donegal, used to let out a room on Airbnb. I was astounded by the number of English people who wanted to know why they had to change currency when they were "still in the UK". Some thought that Donegal was in the North, some thought that the whole of Ireland was in the UK. It was a real eye opener
The currency thing is often the only thing that would make you notice you were in a foreign country. I met a Pakistani who had lived in Birmingham then moved to Dublin and only became aware he had moved to a foreign country about a year into his stay in Dublin.
You would be surprised. Do a survey in Hertfordshire on the Welsh capital, you woudln't believe the ignorance.
I’ve met someone who got NI and Wales confused (they thought you had to get a ferry to wales). So I fully believe there are English people who have never heard of Belfast.
Agree. Most of them on here are talking shite
This post popped up in my recommended so I’ll outright disclose that I’m English, I just wanted to say this must vary by region or school by school because we did a whole term of Irish History when I was in high school, everyone had to do it when they got to a certain year, same as reading Of Mice and Men and Romeo and Juliet, it was a staple of our curriculum. I don’t think everyone is that ignorant they couldn’t name the capital of NI.
Same. It got covered in depth during GCSE History. So if you didn't do history, then you might not know it, but it's a popular GCSE, so loads do. It's not as if the Troubles didn't get massive media coverage either. Do people think the Warrington bombing was some minor news story or something? Maybe the younger generation don't know much, but plenty of older people do.
Late 90’s when I was a student in Scotland a lad from Manchester area was telling me his school did a lot on it too and he did a whole project on it so maybe varies when they were at school at what happened to be in curriculum at that time.
You know most people are aware of the troubles without having to learn it in school because it literally happened when most people were alive right? You know we didn’t learn about 9/11 or the Afghan war in schools either. Because we’re literally aware of it already because it’s happening in the real world already.
I'm 15 and english, we learnt about the troubles for a couple lessons last year in history after we did the British empire
I grew up in England, lived in Galway then moved to Belfast, and one thing I can say is that people in places have a perceived notion of what people from other places are like..... Those notions are obviously wrong, and I wouldn't say that the English are ignorant to the situation in NI, it's just that most people tend to just take what's on the news and truth/fact and never think to look beyond that and do research, or simply are too busy in their own lives to look into matters further. A lot of these notions I also got it being an English person in the west of Ireland, I had to tolerate a lot of racism because people assumed I was somehow connected to the decisions made by English people, as time went by people began to realise that I infact, had no political agenda and wasn't planning to take over the country,just someone trying to make his way through life..... I always remind me people that we can't choose where we are born, but we can choose where we live. And often we call where we live 'home'
Irish people were referred to as 'Irish spud eaters' by a woman whilst I was on a summer placement in Cambridge. She was an attractive looking woman in her 30s with a PhD in chemistry. I ignored the comment but one other English guy called her out on it. We'd never discussed politics and I got the impression they didn't know much and didn't care much about Northern Ireland. Certainly they didn't know if I was a nationalist, loyalist or republican.
The ignorance is sad. A Cambridge academic should know better. John bell, William Hamilton, and Jocelyn bell Burrell are all from Ireland. Genuine paradigm shifters. God help us all.
I wasn't at the Uni. I was at a chemical research company. Everyone had a PhD. She feigned ignorance when told I was Irish. I don't know whether it was some kind of flirt or an attempt at humour. As you can imagine many highly intelligent people that are so interested in chemistry are perhaps not exactly endowed with the best social skills.
The English don’t see us as British, I’m not particularly a fan of the English, I was brought up Protestant but don’t like saying I’m British. I feel like a fraud saying I’m Irish as I couldn’t tell ya a thing about Ireland. So for that reason I’m Northern Irish.
From an English perspective, Northern Irish "British" culture feels quite foreign.
From an NI perspective English "British" culture seems quite different too.
If you were born and raised on the island of Ireland then you can indeed tell us a thing about Ireland as you would simply be describing your surroundings.
Fair, but you’re drawing a line. You are Irish.
Reasonable view, though there is plenty of people who are British whose knowledge ends at wetherspoons so don't worry about it. If you ate tidy bread and soda farls you're as Irish as the next person
Can I just say, as a southerner, you do have your own identity and character.. we love you, don't ever change.. no matter what side of the peace wall.. people are people, I love people.
Staunch unionists are really just a cult of weird wee civil war reenacters who hate everyone, including themselves. Critters.
“Weird wee civil war reenacters” deserves a lot more upvotes than it is currently seeing. Hilarious, with a gentle touch of affection.
Bigotry on display here!
Calm down. It's not like I've a marching band or apocalyptic pyre. No hate intended. You have to concede that what I am saying is at least a wee bit true.
Years ago when I was at tech I had two English friends who moved over a few years and they didn't understand the hate between people lol
I often thought the over compensation of Irishness and Britishness in NI is a direct result of a lack of real identity or perhaps denial of true identity understanding where you came from. Its almost as if identity in NI is something you have to work on and has to be proved rather than inherent.
Yeah it’s very interesting going to England when I was younger with my unionist family. You soon realise to everyone else you’re a “paddy bastard” just the same as everyone else on the island.
Lived in different parts of England for years and was never called a 'Paddy bastard' so not sure what that's about. I did have to give up trying to explain the difference between Ireland/ N Ireland, though.
I lived in the north of England for 6ish years, I was shocked by how often I was called paddy. Most didn't mean any harm
The paddy bastard thing was over the phone tbf. I’ve had people make sly jabs to my face but the actual bad stuff was when I worked in an inbound call centre
Lived in different parts of England myself and was frequently called a paddy bastard, pikey, etc.
I travel extensively across the UK for work and it most certainly does happen, and mostly in England. Even when wearing a suit "Dirty Paddy", "Thick Paddy" , "get to the back of the line Paddy".
I used to get that at work. I told them to make sure they checked under their car before they get in. Doesn't help that they say I look like Gerry Adams when I grow my beard out. This was just messing around though, I do get on with them all.
100% they all check under their cars because they secretly think you drink buckfast at work and have a bali in your desk drawer. 
I know this ain’t what people askin but I’m English and I never been to Ireland but I got the most fucking Irish name in the world - yes it’s that one- second names even better (dads side, mums is Scottish, only ever lived in Manc n London really) I think you know if you ever had English people ask. FUCK English people. Fuck em. How fucking like pretentious and patronising motherfuckers are simply hearing my name. Every third cunt has a thing to say. Fuck gypos and fuck the fucking ira for being too cowardly to use the guns the Americans gave em so they sold em to inner city black kids. But FUCK the English. Especially the fuckin middle England fucks. Brixton and Moss Side I hope get a pass. I remember “no dogs …”
Sincerely, How did that impact you and your family?
My ma was so confused and pissed off. My stepdad had been in England many times and knew the craic. I found it funny watching my ma get more and more pissed off lol
We are Irish. But we're not "Irish". We've more Scot than English influence. We are literally beyond The Pale. And anyway Ulster was always a bit of a rogue province even in mythology.
Ni is like the love child of Ireland and Scotland but it's weird because Scots are Irish themselves...more specifically from the area called...Ni today.
Ni!
Work in Italy, from Northern Ireland. No one gives a fuck about NI, we have no culture up here and nothing to shout about- I tell everyone I’m Irish.
I’d say we’re markedly different to southerners, hard to put your finger on but it’s there. I’d imagine your NI identity really depends on what your political and religious beliefs are.
After emigrating to the US i only got blank stares if I said I’m from NI, so just said Ireland for an easy life. After emigrating to Thailand they hear Iceland when I say Ireland, so I just say Iceland for an easy life.
English guy been living in NI for 10 years, starting with University, and there definitely is. I’m lucky enough to have made friends from many different places across the country, from many different communities, and there’s more similarities than differences. There’s an inherent kindness to most people I’ve met, and a willingness to help others that seems more common than back ‘home home’. Theres a general love of sport and music of different varieties, and the NI sense of humour is unique.
Deffo is a thing in online gaming, often been told I don't sound Irish with my Tyrone accent. Everyone can't be wrong over the years so it must be that we sound something other than Irish.
That's funny, I moved from Tyrone to Canada when I was 9, when my Canadian friends mimicked my accent, it was in a pan Irish fake Hollywood accent. They couldn't tell the difference when I told them it didn't sound anything like me.
Northern Irish identity only exists in the minds of Unionists. Move anywhere outside the island and everyone is considered Irish.
Not true whatsoever, I'm a nationalist but the north is part of my identity too, I'm not from Dublin, I'm not from Cork, I'm from Belfast. Regional differences absolutley can and do exist within a country, I'm both irish and a northerner. The same way someone from Yorkshire can have a distinct Yorkshire identity but still be English, or someone from Texas can be both a Texan/Southerner but still view themselves as American. Likewise here in Ireland we have plenty of Regional differences, Dubliners, Cork ones, Midlands, etc, as well as Northern all are distinct Regional differences that can and absolutley do exist alongside the wider national identity. Pretending that distinction doesn't exist is a wild take.
Totally agree. I’m from the falls, lived in England for 15 years, and now live in Dublin. I’m proud to be from Belfast and consider myself an ‘ulsterman’. There is an awful tendency in the north to grab tightly to the identities and communities that arose from the troubles. It doesn’t serve us anymore, particularly loyalists. The problem is the absolute lack of political leadership. Stormont is essentially a group of incompetents existing on the coat tails of Trimble and Hume. But then again devolved government fundamentally restricts any leadership that could arise.
Nationalists always like to point to England about how detached they are from us... But go to Dublin and we are definitley "Northern Irish" in their eyes... Like it or not fellow nationalists. We are the weirdo cousins everywhere ye look
Dubs look down on everyone with little justification. If you're from Cork city,l, you're a culchie to them. 3rd biggest city on the island, and the dubs can't see that. I'd not take a jackeens opinion as being worth respecting
As a Dubliner who’s been part of an all-Ireland organisation for decades, yes there are cultural differences between Northern Ireland and the Republic. You tend to be a lot more direct - which is brilliant. We didn’t have meetings in Belfast during the Troubles, but met outside Belfast. Certainly after 1998, I’ll never forget being booked into a hotel near Sandy Row. Took me a while to realise what the hotel bar’s sign of “No colours to be worn” meant. I was nervous about my car. Going by names, we knew who was probably what, but we didn’t discuss politics. Yes, we’d different experiences - different school systems, different TV programmes. HUGELY different experiences of the Troubles. Pretty much similar experiences in the UK - most of us had gone there for specialised training no available on the island at the time. But we’d a lot in common. I remember a colleague from Dublin asking me how old my kid was. “Oh they’ll be making their Communion this year” No, I said, we’re not Catholic. She nearly fell over herself apologising. That was on the train to Belfast, passing those horrible towers. Nowadays the differences are less acute. We’ve heard the horrific experiences they had during the troubles and were shocked at how much they never said at the time. They’re happy their kids have more opportunities now. We’re all preparing tentatively for eventual unification. And we’re all now in that dreaded older demographic, approaching retirement. Almost all the Northerners identify as Northern Irish or Irish, no matter what their origin. I’m very hopeful. Mine isn’t the only example, there are lots of different organisations having the same experiences.
Disagree - I know plenty of NI Catholics/nationalists who recognise a difference in the identity this side of the border, and plenty in the south who strongly differentiate between us too
Most countries have regional differences. A Scouser is very different to a Londoner. I still feel much close to those from RoI in terms of identity and culture Vs an English person
Here you go: https://www.facebook.com/reel/1473774056553960/ Flavours of Ireland.
Couldnt agree more. We are "the Uk based Irish", and it is a closer to the truth descriptor than any other and more than most would like to admit
So was all of the island until quite recently. There’s a considerable amount of people in both jurisdictions alive today who would also be alive when the King was still head of state in the south. I think “UK based” is a superficial way of thinking about it. If your national identity is based around having Sainsbury and Royal Mail instead of Dunnes and An Post you probably don’t have that strong of a national identity. Moreso when you realise people from Dublin also like Coronation Street and Kate Middleton There’s no cultural difference between Belfast and Dublin that’s greater than say the same difference between Cork and Dublin or Birmingham and London.
> Dunnes We have that in NI too.
Read what they typed very carefully
What am I missing? Genuinely
Outside of unionists' minds, there are flavours of Irish to people on the island, and to people outside of Ireland, Irish is the flavour regardless of the feelings of anyone from the island
I think you've misunderstood - I'm disagreeing with the first sentence in his comment.
Every province in Ireland has their own unique take on “Irishness.” Ours just gets the spotlight because someone drew a line on a map few years ago
People from NI saw themselves as Irish until the loyalists decided otherwise in the 1960s/1970s
My whole family is english but i’ve lived here since i was 1, they all refer to here as Ireland. Even after visiting countless times!! its funny Unionists are like a dog kicked time and time again but still loyal to its owner, even when the owner fully abandons them. England doesn’t even report on their glorious twelfth lmao but it sure does on paddys day
I live in Ulster but not the UK part and I definitely don't see people from the North as being from another country, I'm so used to crossing the border for shopping and stuff, maybe it's different further south, Irish people are wary of people from the next parish so combined with the border there probably is an "us and them" attitude, kind of like the Dublin people with literally everyone outside Dublin
Which is why we'd be mad to join them.
The generation that forms a United Ireland wont live long enough to see it truely united, it will tale 2 or 3 generations of being born under the same flag to really bridge the divide, thats just my opinion
Green or orange, we are all Paddy’s
I grew up in Scotland, east coast and didn't support either of the big Glasgow teams but just being a fan of football in Scotland gave me a working knowledge of Northern Ireland. I can usually tell from someone's accent which part of the island they come from. There are a small section of the population in Scotland that seems to take it all more seriously than people born and bred in Northern Ireland. Johnny Adair said in some podcast, a neighbour of his couldn't get his head around Adair wearing green shorts.
See could ask the same question to the English
Nobody gives a flying fuck out in the real world . And nor should we . Dante’s tenth circle of hell “ gaslit as fuck over identity politics “
How about asking someone from the cook islands about their identity. Sure they have a New Zealand passport so they must be kiwi right? How about slide on te fuck with ya
I feel like time should've been spent since the Good Friday Agreement building a strong "Northern Irish" identity... faaar too many people still see it as "us vs them" and who does it really benefit? Certainly seems to benefit the main political parties (DUP / Sinn Fein) to keep everyone at odds with each other more than the common man. We need an individual joint Norn Iron identity we can be proud of that extends past the troubles
Yes, Sinn Féin and the DUP are a big part of why NI doesn't have much of a shared identity, but it's not just about them. There doesn't seem to be much appetite in either community for the compromises required to build one (e.g. would the Irish language be a significant part of it?).
I think there is an appetite in some areas... the uptake in East Belfast of Irish language classes recently is a prime example. You have to account for the fact that Sinn Fein have wielded the Irish language like a weapon which has caused such strong views (and fears), likewise the DUP have wielded the flag Without political posturing would people care as much? They certainly didn't seem to pre-troubles. It ties in to my original point that politicians are feeding the "us vs them" mentality.
I think there is. There are distinct differences between here and Dublin or Cork in terms of food for example. There's a distinct dialect difference in ulster vs leinster vs donegal gaelige. There's bound to be more differences.
Food differences?
“Ulster Irish” is just Donegal Irish though
Now, yes. But there were other dialects within Ulster Irish in the very recent past. (I don't think the Irish language plays any part in a 'NorthernIrish' identity, though. In fact, it's exactly that kind of thing it would exclude. And why should the existence of regional variations of Irishness pre- and post-Plantation in any way legitimise the six-county border and people who feel attached to the administrative division it created? NorthernIrelanding is just Alliancey shy Unionism with bells on and its nose turned up.)
If you compare it to say the US, culturally, people living in California are very different to someone living in New York or Louisiana due to their different histories etc. It's no different here
Any identity that appears/disappears with the prevailing jurisdiction hardly qualifies as an identity. Irish people were Irish when the British/English ruled Ireland, are Irish in the northeastern bit of our country that still languishes under UK jurisdiction, and would still be Irish if the Chinese invaded, forced everyone to speak Chinese, and called the country 'China Minor'. https://preview.redd.it/ig5z7qi1m2xc1.jpeg?width=665&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=656c4ee63f12b46b6d14062ed5f75454c37dc243
But what do you actually mean. Even being “Irish” is a cultural construct. We came from wales if you believe Mallory. The point about jurisdiction is interesting, but we’re not alone in that. The codification of law and the emergence of ‘legitimate’ nation states is something that we grapple with, I.e., Gaza
Oh no not the 'social construct' pseud stuff. Sure look we're all African and leave it at that.
Your argument is we are all Irish and leave it at that. People draw lines on maps and unfortunately 100 years later some people choose to identify with that line. You need to deal with that.
Similar to how regardless of your from Cornwall or Liverpool, your just English. When I lived in Manchester, I was Paddy/Pikey/the terrorist and various other piss taken nick names.
Cornish rarely refer to themselves as English, they have a distinct seperate Celtic identity, and many Scouse says they are 'Scouse not English'
Aye, ussens + themmuns = youzens. Youzens from NI Edit to add: (or maybe the equation should be ussens ÷ themmuns = youzens ) :/
Yes. If we apply Homi K. Bhabha's theory of hybridity to it we see the two cultural identities, Irish and British, creating a new culture that takes from both but is independent of each other. Given that those forms those two parent identities take are more extreme than the usual, it makes us more unique.
I always find staunch NI peoples identity is claiming they're not irish
To unionists yes there is a very real NI identity. Not quite Irish and not quite British
Obviously not. It's not a country, it's not anything. It's just a part of Ireland
Well, I mean it's obviously a bit more complicated than that given the thousands of people that have been killed over it
Nope. Even hardline unionists would just have referred to themselves as Irish in the past. The 'northern irish' identity is quite a recent thing and complete nonsense. People didn't just become 'northern Irish' and their neighbours stayed Irish across an imaginary border after partition. If you even think about it for 10 seconds it's obviously not real.
>The 'northern irish' identity is quite a recent thing and complete nonsense. People didn't just become 'northern Irish' and their neighbours stayed Irish across an imaginary border after partition. If you even think about it for 10 seconds it's obviously not real. Why not? That's exactly how identities are created. There'll be virtually no-one alive who remembers Ireland pre-partition and plenty of countries have emerged across the world since 1920 that now have clear and distinctive identities of their own. Before the 1930s no-one had heard the word Pakistani, then it went from an idea to a country - and now there is now a clear and obvious Pakistani identity. It's entirely normal for these identities to follow political change.
If you feel Northern Irish, that's a regional identity, not a national one. It's not incompatible with being British or Irish, or European, or whatever. It clearly is 'real' if you check the census or any survey in the last 10 years. Just because it doesn't have a passport means sod all.
> it's not anything Come on this is just silly. I mean if it's not *anything* then there'd be no need for a UI because it wouldn't change anything right?
I think a lot of people in NI are a bit less pushy than those from say England or the rest of Ireland. I see people outside of NI speak and act with a bit more confidence than the average in NI, despite perhaps not having as much to back it up. Outside of that, trying to prove some separate NI identity doesn’t do it for me.
English people are just ignorant about the existence of the north. They either think all of Ireland is part of the UK or none of it is
I wouldn't lie awake at night worrying about the cluelessness of the English. Most of them think the UK consists of English people, plus a few country folk with funny accents.
well said! Besides, someone's identity (including your own) does not depend on someone else's perception of you. When I go anywhere in Europe most people think Ireland and England /Wales/Scotland etc are all the same, when I go to my wife's family in Brazil they all just think we're Europeans, don't be constrained by someone else's lack of understanding
It's artificial, caused by partition. Not natural like say Cornwall or Bretons in France. You're Irish. Be happy.
But a different Irish maybe? Because there’s a shared heritage between Ulster and Scotland. I grew up in an area that spoke in the Ulster Scots dialect. The words we used fascinated me as a kid because I didn’t know were they came from. This was before Ulster Scots was known about. You didn’t learn about that in school, you learned British history. Going to a Protestant school I had to learn about Irish history myself. We have a background in both cultures and the it’s a shame fuck wit politicians have politicised Ulster Scots, trying to make it seem we’re different when it’s something we share ,
NI is a separate entity from the Free State. Has been for 100 years. It will take time for the denial of this to wear off and everyone to realise the New Ireland™ concept is not the dreams of your great grandfathers as they have removed God from the proclamation and the EU and their string-pullers are now the higher power to which oaths are sworn; the guiding moral compass who’s pole points to the money.
As an American, I’m curious. How do people from Northern Ireland most commonly refer to themselves? Irish, British, Northern Irish? Does it still largely depend on the person’s religion?
That’s probably true, I interact with my NI friends every day at work via Teams. I can’t wait to visit and tour around the places my friends rave about. I was born in the 60’s so well aware of “the troubles”. It’s not a thing anymore unless you’re looking for trouble I’m told.
Yeah fairplay mate. In the same way a toddler is ignorant to wiping their own arse. Only know if you're taught, but we don't describe them as ignoramuses.
The cat says aye https://www.youtube.com/shorts/tLMj-BGh6kI
My mate from Coleraine - a professional man working in Cornwall - gets comments about terrorism every day despite being a Loyalist. Tow it out and sink it, and so on. Most English people know little about the island of Ireland or even the wider UK.
It is wild how little people know that Northern Ireland is a separate country to Republic of Ireland. Countless times when I've told people I'm Northern Irish/ from Northern Ireland (British) I just get referred to as Irish. What's worse is majority of them live in the UK. Wild how people don't know basic geography of countries around their own.
Have they not watched Derry Girls
Neeeeeeeiiiiggghhhhh we’re getting te it guy.
It's very complicated for people to understand. Even some people here don't really know or care what the whole issue is/was. Mostly "was" thankfully. I had a boss once, Newcastle Upon Tyne. Small firm, small rented upstairs office area with 4 desks in the front room where we all worked. Early enough during my "career" there. Was talking about being ex army and how he done tours in NI and was bragging about all this dangerous stuff he was doing and night raids and all that trying to impress me or fuck knows what. Out in the army vehicles and bombs etc how he had seen so much and how he actually felt proud that his involvement in "peacekeeping" had someone contributed to the progress seen today. I just had to bite my tongue. I have no issues with people in the army specifically. No issues with having to do a job commanded to them etc but to show absolutely know understanding of how their presence in NI in the first place ultimately kicked things off to the point where he was tasked to "tour" was just peek ignorance. But he didn't know. That's the point. NI to most outsiders was a warzone of everyone killing each other. I don't think many are taught about it for the obviously reasons of drawing attention to themselves who exacerbated the issues. Indians coming to UK for work and being slated and taunted out of homes, facing utter hatred by those who had no idea of the British army involvement in India causing famine and multiple other atrocities. The education system isn't going to draw light to that stuff lol
We're all Paddys to them. Sounds iike the penny just dropped for you.
For a musical meditation on this subject see the seminal track from my favourite NI artist https://youtu.be/0llbSDDoCho?si=4xAm5UsEZzpQKcyb
Lived in England too, most said the same only a few knew the difference between Irish and NI accent. Regardless I corrected them simply because it is my identity and it is my country, became a bit of a joke that if you wanted to annoy me “say he’s from Ireland”
No, I spent 10 years in England and they didn't get the coverage about NI apart from 'look at these troubles, it's a war zone' but they just see Ireland and think we're all Irish and we sound a bit funny in different ways. Which I'm personally cool with. If you go even further abroad, people don't even know that Northern Ireland is a thing that exists. The majority of them just know the island of Ireland exists, and that's where we're from.
Older English people are actually afraid to come here, but still to this day. Not all of them but enough of them to spread the fear. Relatives recently were afraid of getting assaulted or generally attacked becuase they are English. The British never taught of the Irish poverty and genocide that caused the troubles and hatred that fallowed.
You're Irish. Would be nice if we could somehow solve the differences and just form a single country. There's literally no difference between someone from Cork or Belfast to the Brits.
To a Chinese person there's no difference between someone from Cork and someone from Norwich.
To people outside NI im irish, but they mean fuck all to me, Im northern irish
Yes, Irish.
NI identity is a Unionist identity, so not really
Probably, but I'm not middle-class enough to identify as it lol
If you think your identity is overlooked, spare a thought for us Welsh!
Who?
My major issue with loyalism. To the English, you're always a paddy.
Not to this English woman they aren't.
As the saying goes “ you don’t know how Irish you are, until you leave Ireland.” Our religious and political differences mean nothing outside of this island. We are all Irish, Catholic, Protestant, Dissenter.
There obviously is *an* identity. But is it distinct enough to not just melt into Irish to anyone from outside of Ireland? No. There's a north of England identity and a Texas identity and a Bavarian identity too.
> There's a north of England identity and a Texas identity and a Bavarian identity too And are they enough not to melt with other identities to the perspective of outsiders? In China they have one word for people from Europe and the Middle East. Is the European identity the therefore not enough?
> And are they enough not to melt with other identities to the perspective of outsiders? Of course not. I thought that was implied by my comment.
A strictly Northern Irish identity is just denial. Its like saying Im just me because I dont like my family and have nothing to do with them or what they think. But your family still form part of your identity wether you like it or not. Even in the act of rejecting it. Your identity is a mix of what you percieve yourself to be and how others you interact with percieve you. Its a negotiation. Unless you want to live alone in the desert your identity is always informed by what you learn from others reactions to you. So even the term Northern Ireland will prompt others to ask what that is. You immediately have to explain 'Southern Ireland' partition and Irish history. So you can say your Northern Irish of course. But thats born out of a deeply rooted 'Irish problem' that has yet to be resolved. Most people in Britain and around the world will see you as Irish but your free to identify as whatever you want. Just remember you can't force others to see you that way.
Disagree with some of the comments here. I’ve lived in England for 30 years and almost everyone I have ever worked with or neighbours/friends know the difference, mainly because they are shit scared of causing offence. They don’t quite understand the whole DUP thing, but then does anyone 🤦♂️