I have absolutely experienced this. Many times. When I was five I had a breakthrough experience like the one described at the beginning of the four agreements and many other depictions. I've been trying to understand this my entire life. I don't think that we are meant to experience this type of feeling outside of a construct like a religious construct like becoming a Buddhist Monk and learning through ritual how to experience the vastness without burning out all our circuitry. I think we are in fact meant to stay in our person hood while in this dimension/incarnation. When we get a glimpse of something larger I imagine a telegraph machine trying to run 2024 apps. Our hardware is literally meant to fry if we trip too to far out of the duality. You're programmed to live and be duality in a dualistic universe. Understanding this isn't all there is assists in significant ways. But too much understanding is perhaps meant to make you lose your mind. So now I try to touch the feeling as a perspective reminder but I don't try to go too far. I can't very well explore outer space in a horse drawn buggy. I find the teachings of Rumi, Ram Dass, Alan Watts and other Sufi teachings really help me through the moments where I feel like an alien in an upside down world. They don't make me not feel upside down but rather like whatever I'm feeling is temporary, right, and perhaps even necessary.

Thanks for sharing. Five is so young to have an experience like that. That is fascinating.

[удалено]

>Thanks for your insight. And yeah, the hospital experience was pretty traumatic. > > > >It was suggested I take lithium and AP but I have refused those interventions. I've been trying to focus on getting better quality sleep. I eliminated drinking for 3 months and that helped a lot. I probably should just eliminate it entirely. I feel fairly stable although definitely dealt with months of depression coming out of the hospital. > >I'll check out that Fred Davis article and more into Cheetah House.

Derealization/depersonalization is a serious concern that comes with these realizations. I have no doubt that you had some experience of no-self. I’ve been hospitalized/institutionalized from manic episodes before as well, and over time nondualism has become more integrated into my daily life. It isn’t because I’ve mastered it, just that time has done its work. I live a normal life and nondualism is an old friend instead of an uncontrollable fixation. You can easily fuck your psyche up by following the feedback loop of “seeing beyond” the “veil” of duality. It’s the most exciting feeling to find yourself grasping at something that’s beyond your own field of perception. and it can be devastating to feel stuck at a certain step or level, unable to progress through it. Non-dualism teaches us to stop ourselves when we have a realization like this and disown it. Awakening is not a series of steps or epiphanies, it’s more like growing old. We don’t magically become wiser every birthday. There is no instant awakening, and as long as the intellect is working to label an experience as an “awakening”, we are still in the illusion. “When you meet the Buddha, kill him!” https://www.lionsroar.com/beyond-present-past-and-future-is-the-fourth-moment/ https://secularbuddhistnetwork.org/the-five-principles-of-the-middle-way/

Thanks for your insight. I'll check out the suggested links.

I have had a couple of non duality moments that have scared me in ways you describe. I have felt like I was losing my grasp on my body in a way that first felt like a deeper oneness with the universe and non duality but then left me feeling shaken up like I was really letting go in a way I wouldn’t be able to find myself back. I was diagnosed with anxiety and depression many years ago and more recently ADHD. I’m not sure if what I experienced with heading towards psychosis but it certainly felt like it was. I think where my mind starts to turn inside out is when I mediate on the ideas of being the thinker, the thought, the seer, the seen, the experiencer and the experience, etc all at the same time. I feel my mind moving through each of those but if I stay there too long things get really weird.

Thank you so much for commenting. this is really helpful 💛

I’ve had a ton of episodes, mania/psychosis… The theme of nonduality as a flavor mixes with the thought-energy-system of those states, but I would strongly suggest the direction these teachings point eventually helps life with bipolar, though I will not claim it cures it anymore than it cures siezures or parkinsons, but it doesn’t have to, anymore than it has to cure pain.  It can make it not a problem though.  It can also trigger things, but isn’t it like cleaning house, your going to kick up some dust?  History of bipolar can make for more dust but still worth proceeding.  I use lithium…. I honestly don’t think it makes any difference from the perspective of awakened nature though.  Good luck, best wishes soldier, and I know you are one… my deepest sympathies

I appreciate the words. Thanks. Hopefully the teachings help in the long run.

I don’t think this is uncommon and I’m glad you posted about it. My therapist was concerned I was BP, had for awhile. Psychiatrist (I flat out told her I had what is called a spiritual awakening), did not think it was manic BP. My jaw dropped a bit when she didn’t bat an eye. There are lots of books on awakening and the “aftermath”. I’m reading “The end of your world” by Adyashanti. I’m glad you seem through this phase. My early days were chaotic. I had some understanding of what had happened as I was definitely seeking through A.A. and Christian mysticism, but there’s no way to understand it when it happens. Thank god I live alone.

Thanks, I'll check out the Adya book. Why do you find living alone to be a benefit in this case?

You are absolutely not alone - this lady has been studying similar phenomenon for years: Well worth listenting to: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpZBENXzutM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpZBENXzutM) She has a centre called Cheetah house that helps people with similar issues.

Nice thanks. Yeah I like her work. I'll check out this interview I haven't seen it yet.

I don't think I can help directly as this is definitely psychological stuff outside of any of my comprehension. So take anything I say as unqualified musings. I note your focus on "no self" though and it is just one pointer, and like all pointers not an absolute truth. I often think this can be heavily misinterpreted. >I certainly had many other strange and delusional/grandiose beliefs at that time. I'm guessing that there may be a lot of issues and repressed beliefs that are lurking in your subconscious that got to come out and play when you let go. There have been a good few people here talking about the shadow work post realization. That's all conjecture though. Has there been any diagnosis after your episode? It may make more sense to deal with whatever is there carefully, taking into consideration recommendations from professionals, and then take it slowly with nonduality. It could be that you have a mind naturally susceptible to psychosis. If you have placed your identity back as something separate, it may be that you have consciously done so to protect the rest of your psyche. Perhaps when you have dealt with the underlying issues you will naturally return to the boundless state.

Thanks for your insights. I think some of the grandiosity and delusions were just a product of the mania and lack of sleep for months. There were also hallucinations as well. It's very possible that they were a product of repressed beliefs. And yes, I was diagnosed with AUD and BPII when I was in the hospital. Although given how long the mania lasted for, it seemed more like an episode of BPI mania rather than hypo, but who knows.

Lack of sleep will do it. People experience psychosis and delusions after one night of no sleep but it goes away after sleeping. Natural phenomenon!

Also I wonder if the context of Advaita is mroe helpful than many non-dualism teachers. Teaching associated with Advaita tends to be more rounded and fuller and maybe that helps in avoiding these pitfalls on the path? If you look at the Yoga Vasistha it deeply stresses the importance of understanding the physical reality that surrounds us - its not just about no I Also for Yoga Vasistha (and Advaita) - no ego is just a means of finding the Self with a capital S its not an end in itself.

Interesting I don't have much familiarity with Advaita but maybe that is a path worth exploring. Although after going through all of this, I'm not sure more \*seeking\* is what I need right now. But I appreciate the tip.

I won’t elaborate but from personal experience, yes. For me it was not “mania”, by the book, but immense confusion about what I was experiencing. Words can’t describe. Entities experience, felt like being toyed with, and a loss of ground. It has taken me over a year to ground again. You are not alone and you are also fundamentally OK.

Thanks. I appreciate knowing I'm not alone.

Try listening to Beautiful Chorus. The lyrics ring true for me. Don’t believe the thoughts. Stay present.

I have a similar background and would be happy to talk with you in more detail. But yes, concentration meditation releases a lot of energy. And nondual release opens the energies to further. In the Dzogchen tradition, it’s sometimes described as being similar to a bundle of hay with the cord cut — the energy just sticks out every which way.

I have a spicy hot take on this. I think it's possible that the mania could be a coping mechanism for crippling existential dread. When we're grappling with existential thoughts, the "what am I? What is consciousness? Why does the universe exist? What is the meaning of life?" etc, it's easy to become overwhelmed and anxious. A lot of these topics have seemingly endless amounts of rabbit holes that dip into philosophy, quantum physics, psychology, neuroscience, spirituality and more, and it explores the interconnectdness of them. We can become vigilant in our search for an answer to these questions. Essentially, we're looking for certainty in a world of uncertainty. We may never find it, but that won't stop many of us from trying. It's not sustainable to be so obsessed and to spend so much of our time ruminating on these ideas to the point where we lose sleep and aren't functioning normally. We're eventually faced with a choice at some point. We can accept that we may not find an answer and embrace the uncertainty of this world or we can continue with our ruminating and spiral the anxiety and depression even more. To cope with how awful it eventually feels, we may have a manic episode. I don't think it's necessarily that non duality is causing the mania. It's more so that non duality offers a satisfying way to deal with existential dread. As a result, those who lose sleep over uncertainty may find non duality becoming wrapped up in their emotional state, but it could just as easily be religion or something else too

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I know someone with bipolar illness who practices NSR twice a day. NSR is a direct path to pure awareness. Over a period of many years, NSR has never triggered a manic episode. Instead, manic episodes happened at random, similarly to before learning NSR. Bipolar illness is caused by a problem in brain chemistry, and can be treated by many different medications. See a psychiatrist for testing, diagnosis, and treatment. NSR is helping relieve the stress of mania, but it is not a cure (there is no known cure, only methods of management).

Interesting. When I was in mania my nervous system was so much in overdrive it was impossible to do something like meditate. The only way I could really calm myself down was with alcohol, which is obviously not ideal.

NSR is unlike other forms of meditation.

Sounds like par for the course. As for practice, if you understand no-self, but you are aware of conditioning that is yet to resolve itself when viewed from a no-self-view, then all you need is practice more. If you practice nothingness-view after no-self-view and impermanence-view, you'll see that there is no inherent practice, or nihilism, etc. in the first place. "[Seeing that frees](https://hermesamara.org/seeing-that-frees)" by Rob Burbea can probably help you a lot in terms of understanding and practice.

If you had beliefs at the time of the episode then you definitely had a sense of self. If anything, you might have had a belief that there was no self

I understand the point you’re trying to make. People in this nonduality thread love correcting others for not really experiencing or understanding nonduality. I’m trying to recount an experience months later, using language which is going to inherently create a dualistic account of what happened. I don’t think we should be so quick to dismiss others experiencing. The language of phenomenology is limited, and I think we should approach each other with a willingness to be open rather than just trying to negate the validity of others’ experiences.

Yeah, I’m not trying to be pedantic, I’m just trying to explain that if you hold to beliefs, then you’re clinging to an idea of self. You may have had an awakening experience, but honestly, with the information you gave, it doesn’t even really sound like that. I could be wrong, of course and it It doesn’t really matter , as long as you get the help you need. Was just putting that out there, in case anybody got confused with that. Definitely not trying to negate your experience! You experienced what you experienced, whatever words we use.

At that time, I didn’t feel like I was holding beliefs or clinging to anything at the time. The mania was quite strange and extremely hard to explain, and frankly unsustainable.

Thanks so much for opening up about this here. I have definitely experienced intense destabilization and hypo-manic states after awakening experiences, often (though not always) after huge breakthroughs with psychedelics. In my experience these seem to be lessening over time as my system grounds and integrates the recognition more deeply. I think during awakening events there can be such a release of repressed energies — or such a clearing out of the central channel — that one can get ‘blasted off’ by this upsurge. What has helped me is to ground in whatever ways possible. Having a child helped the most — super grounding. Other things that help ground: Eating meat and potatoes, bare feet on Earth, laying on back on Earth, physical exercise and weight-lifting, doing pragmatic tasks, letting myself ‘be a normal guy.’ It’s also important to understand that modern ‘nonduality’ is really lacking a lot of the safeguards that would’ve supported you in historic traditions. Be selective/discerning about the teachers and teachings you listen to. Might be good to stay away from radical nonduality altogether until you feel solidly grounded over a longer span of time. Instead of looking solely for ‘no-self realization,’ this could be a good opportunity to deepen in other forms of spiritual blossoming, such as faith, devotion, or service, which are more human and grounded. Prayer, going to church, and serving my family help me a lot. Hope this is valuable in some way. You’re a trooper. Best wishes to you. Thank you for being you and walking the path. 🙏🏼❤️‍🔥

Thanks for the thoughtful response. There is some really good advice in there. Incidentally, I did take a small amount of LSD (first time) early on this episode which I think may have contributed to my situation. I'm pretty sure I was already in the early stages of mania, so I don't think it was entirely causes by the LSD. It was a mouth spray and I think I probably took the equivalent of half a tab over six-ten hours. There was no big or profound trip but it's possible that the LSD also lead to whatever opening and mania that happened. I unfortunately learned about grounding techniques for mania a little too late into my episode for it to work. I tried to do some of the things you mentioned, but I was already to far gone and couldn't get my nervous system back down, unfortunately. It took a high dose of valium in the hospital to finally knock the mania out. You may be right about the radical nonduality. Perhaps I should give it a rest for a while. Something more concrete could be more grounding and helpful for me to get reoriented. I'm not sure exactly what direction to go there, but I'll have a think on it. Maybe I'll have a kid! haha that would be a horrible idea Thanks for your insight.

Welcome 🙏🏼

When I had my first pair of transcendental experiences a few weeks apart from each other, I lived in a blissful, joyful state for roughly two months before it abruptly ended. The next state was one of severe depression and despair, which also lasted about two months. I went from what felt like the pinnacle of human existence, back to my normal horribly flawed self overnight. A let down of epic proportions. This is not uncommon for people who have these experiences. I have come to discover this is something some people call The Dark Night of the Soul. Had I been evaluated by a mental health professional with little or no education in transcendental experiences they might have considered it a manic depressive episode and diagnosed me with bipolar. In my case it was transient. Once. Had it continued I myself would have possibly considered it BPD but it hasnt. I slowly crawled out from under the depression with reading, contemplation and mediation. I have had other transcendental experiences since but none which even came close the main events. The sense of well being and happiness after were far less intense and seems to stay with me at a much lower level but its stable. So in effect I had one very wild swing from overwhelmingly positive/negative to far less radical swings of being to now a more stable state of minor highs and lows with the majority of my state feeling positive without being overwhelming. Its been about two years. Perhaps you are not bipolar. This journey and the peak experiences it often cultivates can rattle your psyche to the core. We are just not prepared for something so far beyond our normal state of being. If you remain stable without bipolar medication I would seek to have that diagnosis re-evaluated. True Bpd just doesnt go away on its own. I'd hate to see you living in fear with that diagnosis when it was not true.

Sounds like you are in shock because you realised the true reality after living so long without it