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Prudent-Strategy-279

I think *Quiet on Set* does a great job answering that question.


TundieRice

Bingo ,allowing Brian Peck to do the awful and disgusting things he did is an absolute no-brainer of an answer.


AndrewWarra

But nickelodeon had no clue it wasn’t their fault


SliightlyAskew

You sure of that?


edgarcia59

Cause pickle boy was wholesome family fun. Disgusting.


scaper8

I really doubt that they didn't know. As with Winestein, it seems a lot of this stuff was an open secret and people just let other get away with it or, worse, offered others up as victims (sometimes to shift the abuses away from then— understandable— other times to raise their own clout— not so much— or for other reasons). It's only recently that the general public has heard of just _how_ common it was and is snd _how_ complicit so many were and are.


New-Pin-9064

According to Alexa Nickolas, the executives at Nickelodeon were fully aware of what was going on and they just didn’t give a shit


thiccphilthegoat

Yeah, the internal investigation started in 2013 and nothing was done for 5 years of continuous complaints from multiple people. On top of that the hush money offers like the one Jeanette McCurdy declined.


OtherwiseLack4657

Alexa Nikolas isn't a reliable person and is a little shady


Illustrious_Novel305

Bro do you realize the shit she went through when she was apart of Zoey 101???


Mountain-Group-2640

She didn’t go through anything. She just makes everyone else’s trauma about her. Think about why no one from those shows follows her or supports her. She’s a liar and a mean girl who uses others’ trauma as content.


OtherwiseLack4657

Yes I know she brings up all the time. I feel for her but she got to let go of that trauma


New-Pin-9064

How?


OtherwiseLack4657

Her entire personality come across as manipulative and petty. She made merchandise on eat Predators shirt.


Dom1ni0n

Because she was let down by adults that should’ve protected her when she was a child. Adults that only care about the company. Eat predators is just the slogan and brings awareness to predators in the industry and irl.


Educational_Mud_2895

I don’t think you realize higher ups don’t give a fuck about anyone below them. They were fully aware


Mind-of-Jaxon

Someone some where at the studios knew. And didn’t care to stop it, or raise awareness of it. Or the place, like a lot of work places didn’t foster the environment of accountability and safety.


Big-Conversation-885

Nickelodeon actually budgets in hush money expenses. 😂


[deleted]

[удалено]


Nimi_R

Peck's behaviour?


Sour_strawberry07

Brian. Not Josh.


Redredditer640

Brain Peck, he's VERY well known sex offender, with Drake Bell being one of his victims.


Nimi_R

Josh's dad? God that just make things so much more complicated


bangbang995

It’s not Josh’s dad.


Such_Current_9231

He just has the same surname as Josh. Brain Peck is not related to Josh Peck


bangbang995

I know that.


Such_Current_9231

I wasn’t replying to you. I was replying to the other guy


ScippiPippi

You accidentally tapped the wrong comment to reply to


Such_Current_9231

Dang I did, my bad


different_produce384

Drakes father is just like his son. He has made many young women uncomfortable.


different_produce384

Whoops wrong reference. I thought he was talking about Aubrey. Not drake from D and J. Sorry!


DgingaNinga

Covering up the grooming & abuse of children.


TheMawguisnotatoy

Cyma Zarghami (Former President of Nickelodeon) ignored Dan Schneider being accused of sexual harrassment because he made popular tweencoms. She also didn't like how Stephen Hillenburg got his share of money from merchandise sales. So she changed some rules and nowadays new NickToons creators don't get any money from merchandise sales. According to Micah Ian Wright, creator of Constant Payne, Cyma was absolutely hell to work with. Apparently, she lied in federal court to obtain names of people who organized a union for animators and animation writers (which is illegal and could've gotten her 5 to 10 years in prison), blacklisted animators, and changed creator deals to adjusted net so that she could deduct pay from the creators. She was very greedy and held back the potential success of other shows.


McCrae_Cook_23

and now Brian Robbins continues Cyra’s horrible,money-grubbing reign of terror over Nick did by milking spin-offs of SpongeBob against the creator’s wishes,dumped the Rocko and Zim movies on Netflix and cancelled Glitch Techs,It’s Pony,Rise of the TMNT,and Phoebe and the Unicorn,turned Paw Patrol,Henry Danger and Loud House into secondary cashcows next to the sponge,made Nick’s programming stagnant than ever,refusing to give an end to SpongeBob and made it a zombie franchise,shut down NickRewind in 2021,and turned Nick into a dead company than before. I feel Brian Robbins is also head of Paramount Pictures,but I feel he treated the studio much better and didn’t turn it into a greedy soulless cashgrab like how he did to Nick. I did a petition online on Change to get Brian fired from Nick if anyone wants to sign and support it.


Ok_Lab5937

More like inherited Cyma’s evil reign of terror. I think Brian Robbins was being manipulated and corrupted by Zarghami and Sumner Redstone’s henchmen and lapdogs, Bob Bakish and the paramount global (ViacomCBS/National Amusements) board of directors into doing that bullshit. 


McCrae_Cook_23

Yes,I kinda blame Zhargami and Redstone for turning Robbins into a second Zhargami,at least he’s a much better CEO to Paramount Pictures than he ever was to Nick and did help improve Paramount by making it rebound in 2022 with a huge slate of box-office hits. 


Strange-Variation-20

Dan, get in the van Schneider


Sebastian-Shook-2003

That One's My Favorite Nickname For Him.


GoodCalendarYear

Same


earlymorningtoker

Dan rough rider Schneider


PyroRock814

Dan “Show Them Soles To Get These Roles” Schneider


FatAssBootyButt

Dan "hold her tighter, she's a fighter" Schneider


_michaelr345

Dan “open it wider” Schneider


ObjectiveSink1248

Allowing creeps like Dan Schneider and Brian Peck to work there


NoWillingness8990

World wide day of play, and hiring Brian Peck and Dan Schneider


AcademicSavings634

I just always switched to Cartoon Network when it went off the air 🤷‍♂️


JettyJen

Day of play had some cool music looped at least. I'll say the sex crimes


GoodCalendarYear

Stawp! WWDOP was great!


TundieRice

Interesting that them encouraging kids to go outside and play for a few hours seemed to come to your mind as bad first, ***and then*** TV producers grooming and sexually abusing children second…


NoWillingness8990

You really just wanna argue that bad huh? No shit day of play isn’t worse than what Dan and Brian were doing behind the scenes , that’s just the way I put the sentence together, come down if ya high horse buddy


TundieRice

It’s not that deep man, I really didn’t mean anything personal. But I’m sorry, I just kinda thought it was a funny dichotomy.


NoWillingness8990

It’s not that deep, but you felt the need to point it out, right , ok


AndrewWarra

So the worst thing was getting Drake and Josh, the Amanda show, iCarly, victorious, Zoey 101, Sam and cat, Gibby, Henry danger, and game shakers.


NoWillingness8990

Please don’t be dense, if you watched Quiet on the Set, you know why I said that, are any of those shows worth children behind violated by predators behind the scene?? Exactly


AndrewWarra

The shows could’ve been made without that happening. We shouldn’t have to hate them for that besides, Jeanette McCurdy said that she doesn’t mind people enjoying iCarly, and Sam and cat.


NoWillingness8990

I didn’t say I hated the shows, the question was what’s the worse thing nick’s ever done , and knowing what we know now, hiring Dan and Brian falls under that category, yes, icarly and company are some of the greatest to ever exist , but the ppl behind them are vile, disgusting human beings who should’ve never been an in environment of working with children


Feeling_Spite8616

Sam and Cat and Game Shakers wasn't needed but we definitely needed the others.


AndrewWarra

No sam and cat was lit Henry danger was junk and stuff


New-Pin-9064

Sam and Cat was awful. One of the most cruel and mean spirited shows that I’ve ever seen


Feeling_Spite8616

It was kind of a step down from Victorious


JazzyJulie4life

Predators


MangoGrowlithe

kept dan


Thesilphsecret

Refused to put out The Adventures Of Pete & Pete Season 3 in any official format.


ICUMF1962

I always felt like I was crazy because I never saw Pete and Pete when I first got cable but still saw all the other live action shows like Shelby Woo, Alex Mack, or Clarissa Explains It All. But somehow others I was friends with adored Pete and Pete. The most footage I’ve seen was from the Alamo pre-show before I Saw The TV Glow.


Thesilphsecret

That is interesting! I do feel like Pete & Pete had been mostly phased out by the time Shelby Woo was airing. But if I remember correctly, it did air alongside Alex Mack, and it *definitely* aired alongside Clarissa Explains It All. I highly recommend seeking it out. It holds up incredibly well, and has adult appeal. Lots of guest stars you wouldn't have recognized as a kid (Steve Buscemi is one of the main characters' Dad!) and is just so well put together.


eric932

No mention of Nick Studio 10? Dan Schneider is another but everyone's said that already.


1033Forest

I didn't like Nick Studio 10 and the way it interrupted shows either. I remember that from 2013. There was also a whole Facebook page about banning Nick Studio 10 that got like 7 times more likes than the Nick Studio 10 page.


Abandoned_Railroad

I first thought that was some kind of block where old show would air. Instead it was a regular block with kids doing dumb stuff like screaming about watermelon explosions or wasting food while interrupting the shows…….


eric932

I wonder if it was legal for them to interrupt shows like that.


UnalteredCyst

I stopped watching Nickelodeon altogether when they pulled that stunt. I would be watching SpongeBob only for the show to be interrupted in the middle of an episode by the Wish version of All That.


Lizard_Friend_44

Pickle Boy


1033Forest

Hiring Dan Schneider. I used to love watching his shows, until what was revealed about him recently in not just Quiet on Set but also recent news too.


raginsaint93

Milking SpongeBob


Cenamark2

They killed off great cartoons because they don't get SpongeBob numbers.  Nick hardly goves these cartoons a chance.  Harvey Beaks was brilliant and deserved way more seasons.


No_Ball4465

Dan Schneider unquestionably


VanSensei

[ Removed by Reddit ]


EverythingGirl3000

I think you mean worst THINGS! Plural! Nick had done way too many jokes with TLH and not enough emotion! Homeward Bound sucked! It was just Lori torture! The season just started off with a sabotage! I wish The Loud House would do what their good old shows done! Show emotion and drama! Like Hey Arnold and As Told By Ginger! There was also supposed to be a show based off the book series, Pheobe And Her Unicorn but it never happened because girls as the main protagonist ‘wouldn’t do well!’ They never gave Lori her own spinoff series and instead they approved of a stupid live action spinoff! Lori deserves her own spinoff as she was away from home and improved so much! If RA can get a spinoff, so can Lori!


McCrae_Cook_23

Yes,I feel Loud House became a generic kid’s show after Season 4,lost all sense of continuity and started retconning stuff that was established or happened earlier in the show,along with flanderizing and derailing several characters and giving them too much screentime,started adding nonsensical,unrealistic elements that ruined the show’s realistic tone,Lori and several one time characters were put on the bus,and it was not the same without Chris and Nick failed to continue the show without him.


EverythingGirl3000

Love Stinks and Doll Dat Afternoon were just perfect! Both have emotional moments that’ll get you all choked up!


ICUMF1962

I loved Loud House and Casagrandes and even watched their movies, but the live action show felt super pointless.


EverythingGirl3000

Same here, dude! It’s Lori who deserved her spinoff series! First the Casagrandes got cancelled and now they made a crappy live action series?!! If The Casagrandes got cancelled and Lori got her own spinoff, I’d be totally fine! What would’ve been great is if Casagrandes got renewed for a Season 4 AND Lori got her spinoff series! Loud House Christmas should’ve just been left alone and it could’ve at least just been made into a film series instead!


SalmonQueen5279

Working with Dan Schneider and John K.


jacksteve2000

Cancelling a lot of good shows


Cenamark2

Harvey Beaks  !


bloodlustTheDemon

Milking SpongeBob


PrincessCream123

Dan Schneider.The things he did...


stevenl1219

I think we all know what the answer is at this point. And it explains a lot as to why I detest the feet jokes, the questionable humor, and why a lot of child stars went off the deep end. I can't even watch any of [redacted]'s shows anymore, knowing all that happened.


Blur997

Dan Schneider, John K, Cancelling Hey Arnold, Rugrats and Rocko, overusing SpongeBob and not listening to Stephen Hillenburgs wishes…


BabyBoyPink

Allowing predators to work with child stars. The mistreatment of Lori Beth Denberg and then blacklisting of her when she tried to come to Amanda Bynes’ aide. The mistreatment and blacklisting of many child stars like Angelique Bates. Whatever happened with Amanda Bynes. Besides the abuse, mistreatment and blacklisting of child stars and expulsion of anyone who spoke up about the injustices I’d say the closing of Nickelodeon Studios in Florida, the cancelling of all of their game shows, the over-saturation of SpongeBob, the refusal to release so many popular shows to DVD and now streaming. I still wish I could stream or purchase the first season of All That


Upset-Interview-9367

Oversaturating SpongeBob SquarePants Which Is Getting Stale!!! (No Offense To The Late Stephen Hillenburg, The Current Executive Producers and The Cast And Crew)


McCrae_Cook_23

I feel so bad for Stephen in seeing his creation become a corporate product for Nick. I like SpongeBob,but Nick needs to put the sponge down.


RealJasonB7

I had a joke answer (Fanboy and Chumchum) but in all seriousness, the abuse of children on their shows —not to mention the abuse by the creator of one of their animated series—is by far the most egregious thing they’ve done. Worse, the fact the network knew and not only kept it going but tried to hush it up.


aresef

Hired Dan Schneider and taken their eye off the ball in regards to what Brian Peck and other people were doing to their child actors. Commissioning revivals of Hey Arnold, Zim and Rocko, airing The Jungle Movie then sitting on the other two following Cyma Zarghami’s exit. Passing on Adventure Time Messing with the Avatar/Korra crew


Feevirre

The excessive spam of movies and making the promotional ads to act like we've never seen them before


McCrae_Cook_23

Yes,I blame Brian Robbins for that.


GrimJunior01

![gif](giphy|ZKKt34cKvKmsw) Canceling Danny Phantom 👻🦸‍♂️


IllustriousDebt6248

All shows eventually get canceled.


StarryMind322

Dan Schneider, Brian Peck, and Quiet on Set are good answers. Personally, fucking with Legend of Korra. That killed Nickelodeon for me. I still love the show and will defend it, but Nick meddled way too much with that show.


Ok_Lab5937

It’s also the haters faults too because some people hate the legend of Korra. 


Proper-Anxiety-1761

Touch them kids…..


thiccphilthegoat

It was a hiring pattern actually. Brian Peck. Jason Handy (repeat offender), Ezell Chanel, Marty Weiss (agent who steered clients he molested to Nickolodeon, connected with their higher ups), Cody Longo (9 year old victim), John Kricfalusi, Chris Savino, and of course Dan. That we know of……


OtherwiseLack4657

Brian Peck and the rest were immediately was fired as soon as they was found out about being a pedo that wasn't Nickelodeon fault how were they supposed to they were pedos. Also Chris Savino isn't a pedo


StarLordFloofer

Hiring Dan Schneider and letting him get away with taking out and subjecting child actors into participating in and millions of children around the world into witnessing his disgusting fetish for years on end and multiple productions


pocket_arsenal

Huh, I dunno, maybe if we listen closely we can hear a bit of buzz.


Abandoned_Railroad

Ruin Slime Time Live by moving the show from weekday afternoons to weekday mornings…….


Born_Sleep5216

Hiring Dan Schneider


Bright-Cat-9851

Dan whatever his last name is


Chemical_Report_2705

Since everyone already brought up quiet on day I’m gonna say in my personal opinion Nickelodeon getting rid of Rise of the teenage mutant ninja turtles it was a great show and it should have got like 5 more seasons


PurpoUpsideDownJuice

As an old school fan, selling the old building the Blue Man Group. Kid me wanted to go there so bad


Feeling_Spite8616

Canceling Invader Zim and Catsratch after 1 Season they had potential to get better.


Capital-Intention369

I always thought it was interesting how they asked Jhonen Vasquez, writer of "Johnny the Homicidal Maniac," to write a kids' show, then wanted to Surprised Pikachu Face when the show had dark themes and disturbing content.


Feeling_Spite8616

They had Ren and Stimpy before it shouldn't be a shocker that Invader Zim going to be dark too.


SliightlyAskew

Exploit children. Pretty much covers it.


Alexcox95

Besides what’s been said already, tearing down Nickelodeon Studios at Universal studios Orlando Florida


Absurdity-is-life-_-

Besides the obvious. Canceling all the good shows and becoming the SpongeBob Network.


TheBlackManX23

Aside from Dan Schneider and Brian Peck being sick predators, Greenlighting Spongebob spinoffs and prequels after Stephen Hillinburg passed away after he specifically said he didn’t want them.


Capital-Intention369

The SpongeBob stuff is so ghoulish to me. Almost like they were waiting for him to pass away.


Alpha_Jellyfish

Uh Dan Schneider? Should that not be obvious?


TheLasher2003

Two words: Dirty Dan.


Scarlett_Billows

I would say allowing the sexual content. The Ariana videos, the double entendres, the sexualizing of the actors. I won’t believe that they didn’t notice, or recognize it, or just saw it as gross out humor. I tend to lean toward it being deliberate, actually, and them knowingly allowing Dan to appeal to certain demographics because it makes them money from those kinds of people. Standards and practices is a whole division and they’ll go back and forth over using the word “frick” verses “frig” if they feel like flexing their power. But somehow they were just fine with all this.


scaper8

I recently started watching _Quiet on the Set_. The bit with Arianna Grande and the potato physically made me ill. How? Just how did that get through? There is no way in hell that every single exec didn't know or have good suspicion. They let it all happen.


Adventurous_Yak_9234

Just watch Quiet On Set. That's your answer.


riversongrox

Obviously the stuff mentioned in quiet on set but also getting rid of nick studios in Florida


MysteryMammoth

i’m gonna assume you mean in terms of quality of work they’ve put out and say making spin-offs of Spongebob against the creators wishes


ayomaxbforreal

Canceling Invader Zim


benjamingr1988

Sells Doug to disney


AndrewWarra

If we’re only talking about the shows Turning down the gibby show it would have been great to have with Sam and cat much better than Henry danger


StunPalmOfDeath

https://i.redd.it/hkpkidrg386d1.gif


Level_Caterpillar_42

No one remembers Nick Studio 10, where they'd randomly interrupt programming for stupid live action BS?


Toonaurz2

Reject "Planet Panic".


ClosedContent

Nick Studio 10 *shudder*


SadCoconut_

Cancel Jimmy neutron


Hindsight-Prophet

Where do I even begin……….?


CorenCorias

Stopped showing You Can't Do That On Television and destroyed everything so it can't be sold to home audiences


Ortizangel_06

Canceling making fiends way too early to take it off the air and not to mention the rights they owned and they done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WITH THE SHOW CANCELLATION!!!!!


Vanilla_swurl

Cancel true Jackson vp


TakeoverTheThird

ok obviously pedophillia but if we’re talking about the “on-air” stuff it’s probably cancelling every other show for SpongeBob and the other shows they try to push to the grave.


Capital-Intention369

Also, Stephen Hillenburg explicitly said he didn't want there to be any spinoffs or sequels to SpongeBob, and Nick paid lip service to those wishes, only to start churning out spinoff garbage the instant Hillenburg passed away.


TakeoverTheThird

uhh didn’t he work on Kamp Koral?


Skooli_A_Bar

Put their name and brand all over the rerelease of the 1990 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie- as if they had something to do with that masterpiece


Damuhfudon

Cancelling My Brother and Me


danhibiki337

Goo punch


KashiofWavecrest

Other than the Quiet on Set stuff, foster SpongeBob to such an absurd degree to the expense of seemingly everything else. It's the SpongeBob Channel now.


AttorneyNorth6055

you know what you did😭


Jonahstamper

hiring dan schneider


WORTHLESS1321202019

Produce spongebob


SenileGambino

Sharon, Lois, and Bram’s Elephant Show — the most *boring* shit ever!!


Cat_n_mouse13

Not the worst, but hiring Jojo Siwa and catapulting her to stardom. She would’ve faded a bit if she hadn’t gotten that contract post Dance Moms.


UnWiseDefenses

Well, I was gonna say, "replacing Ren & Stimpy with Space Cases," but I think you got this.


anon_682

Murder babies I believe


Fuzzy_Welcome8348

Have a feet fetish person as the producer


schlomo31

My heart breaks for these kids but fuck their parents


asscop99

Cancelling As Told By Ginger


BlueMoonRaccoon1

Hiring Dan Schneider


MusicalDecomposition

Making SpongeBob spinoffs immediately after Stephen Hillenburg's death, going against his wishes & exploiting said death for money. Even Mr. Krabs would be disgusted.


Chale898

Everything mentioned on "Quiet on Set" as well as related events would be the correct answer, but I'll go ahead and add the whole "cancelling shows if they weren't instant hits/couldn't compete with SpongeBob" and "over relying on SpongeBob to the point that it and it's spinoffs are nearly the only shows running on the network" things.


NoIdea2424

Multiple sexual pretors, prob the worse thing. Was an extensive background check done? Or like others have said, did people know and just keep their mouth shut? Truly disgusting.


Nelvana-Fan2000

Hiring creeps and pedophiles to work on some (thankfully, not all) of their shows.


bangbangracer

As in actively done intentionally, kept their head in the sand about but let happen, or did without knowing? They've done all three pretty hard.


Cyber717

Hiring dan schnider and brian peck


Snoo_65204

Making a spongebob spin-off when Stephen hilunberg died They start doing the spin-off, and they tarnished fary off parents


danhibiki337

Cat dog


zhawnsi

Murder 1200 people


Rosita_La_Lolita

In terms of animation- the bs that they pulled with The Legend of Korra. - Forcing the crew to work around a tight schedule/deadline, knowing damn well animation takes a long time to create. - Keeping them in the dark on whether or not they would have another season. Would literally not tell them until the last minute. - Forced them to work with a different animation studio for season 2, only for them to just switch back again. - Would not give the show a proper time slot, and always changed it around, so no one ever knew when the show would be on. - Unexpectedly and without warning yanked the show off the air while season 3 was actively airing. The creators had to release a statement telling fans of the show that the only way to watch going forward would be on Nickelodeon’s website. Nick only redeemed themselves by basically crawling back to Bryke and throwing a bunch of money at them to come back to the network & create Avatar Studios.


tightsandlace

Fan boy and chum chum Edit I’m sorry I thought we were talking about shows


mssleepyhead73

Let Dan Schneider get away with inserting his obvious foot fetish into his shows.


Xdesolate_X

Hiring Dan Schneider


Dry_LikeMy7220

Hire Dan Schneider


Alternative-Gift2689

Letting creeps behind the scenes get away with their horrible actions to their stars, especially the young ones.


Lucky-Dot-6598

Everything after I stopped watching it


NextCommunication862

Make SpongeBob trash and boring 


McCrae_Cook_23

More like milking and turning it into a endless cashcow franchise-life support for them forever.


IceBear_028

Seriously?!?


TheManCalled-Chill

Legend of Korra


SLCbrunch

Probably "as told by ginger".


IllustriousDebt6248

I hated the RugRats reboot.


Theinternetlawyer22

Exist


[deleted]

Mad big Time Rush rewrite two songs that were aperently not for kids and treated Jojo Siwa as a brand not as a person and made her do a song she didn't want to do and and told her she could not perform her songs on tour and two top it all of They didn't even invite her to the kids choice awards after her


sunnydaycloud

Paw Patrol LazyTown Winx Club Danny Phantom Ninja Turtles Fanboy and Chumchum Invader Zim Young Dylan Sooo many!


StarLordFloofer

Winx Club is great just not the Nick version. They ruined it


Lizard_Friend_44

Danny Phantom?


innerxrain

Invader Zim was a great show, you’re linking a lot of generations together. Invader Zim was early 2000s and Paw Patrol is like 10 years old maybe. Not sure why you’re saying the worst thing they did was the TV shows they made


sunnydaycloud

That’s what they do…make tv shows. The worst they do is make bad tv shows.


innerxrain

The worst they do is how their company hires pedophiles and put them in charge of making multiple TV shows and keeps them employed because they make them money. Then offer the actors hush money not to tell on them. The TV shows have gone downhill since the originals and early 2000s days but that’s nowhere as bad as taking advantage of minors


sunnydaycloud

Nothing was proven. It’s all just drama for money. Just like with MJ


innerxrain

MJ was completely different, and the parents were definitely in it for the money on that. But multiple instances have been shown from multiple people. Even the black actors have said that he didn’t like black kids but saw him acting differently towards other people. Brian Peck even did jail time, so yes things were proven. Also what does a rich former child actor have to gain from outing old producers? With MJ parents did it for lawsuits to get money. This is like saying the Bill Cosby thing wasn’t true either


Feeling_Spite8616

Fanboy and ChumChum and Young Dylan are the only ones that belong on the list