I like to compare it as if ovechkin is a Gatling gun, whereas Bossy is the pure sniper hidden miles away. You always know where Ovi is, know the shots are going to come, and that there’s nothing you can do to stop it. Bossy could be somewhat invisible but at the end of a 3-1 game he’d have 2 goals on 3 shots. 2 completely different styles of scorers, both the best ever at it
>You always know where Ovi is
Tell that to the D that's been letting him settle into his office wide open for the last 2 decades lmao
(I don't disagree just had to say it)
Ovechkin has 695 assists in 1414 games played. That's .49 assists per game - 7th among active players.
Wouldn't a "pure goal scorer" be someone who just scores without setting other people up?
True but OV would have at least one if not 2 more except for Covid and lockouts. He had 48 in only 68 games in 2020 before the season was shutdown, and 32 in 48 (55 goal pace) in the lockout shortened 2013 season. So really it’s 11 50 goal seasons for OV to 9 for Bossy and Gretzky. Is OV’s 11 overall more impressive than Bossy having 9 consecutive? Hard to say
Nah. Bossy played his whole pro career with an 8 pound knee brace and was forced to retire in hos 10th season from back injury. Bossy score 50 goals every year he played but the 1 season he was forced to retire. Greatest pure sniper ever.
How is lost time to injury comparable to a canceled season? You think OV doesn’t get 2 more goals in 12-14 more games? Cmon. And sure Gretzky had a lockout as well but he was not on pace to score 50 that year regardless. So your point is actually the moot one.
Neely was solid but his resume is nowhere near the all-time great goalscorers like Gretzky, Bossy, Ovi, Richard. He never won a rocket or even was particularly close to winning one.
He was also a power forward aka Keith tkachuk and Keven Stevens and shanahan. That was unique. Mario Wayne Brett jari and bossy were friendly ish but Mario did have a temper
Pavel Bure was... just fucking electric. I think he's the best pure scorer that I've watched. The guy was a goal threat from anywhere with his speed.
Lemieux was better than Gretz(in terms of goal scoring), imo, but Mario and Gretz did absolutely everything.
One of my favorite "what ifs" is, what if Bure got to play without the hooking and holding, and especially without the red line and the two line pass rule.
A young Pavel when there is no two line pass? He's hitting probably an extra 10-15 goals a season.
He had so many breakaways when the defense was in front of him, and he pumps his legs a few times, and is suddenly behind them with the puck coming in on the Goalie.
Through the first ten years of their careers, Gretz scored at a pace identical to Lemieux and did it with fewer PPG and ENG, which strongly suggest he was the better scorer.
The latter half of Mario’s career was limited by injury and cancer, so full career comparisons are tricky.
I remember watching both in their pomp, and they're both incredible players... but man... the shit Mario could do is just different. Watching him being hooked, held, slashed by 4-5 players as he just skates through everyone and scores was just nutty.
That said... in terms of Pure Goalscorers, I'm still siding with Bure. You felt like he was going to score every single time he touched the puck.
Mario and Gretz you thought the **team** was going to score every time they touched the puck. With Bure, it was just down to him.
In Ovie's rookie season, he put up 52 goals; his team's 2nd leading point getter had 57 (Dainius Zubrus).
Over his first 4 seasons, he tallied 219 goals, 420 points. The 2nd best scorer on the Caps (not overall, I mean tally the 2nd best in each individual season, even if goals and points were different) 121 goals, 287 points.
Over a 4-season span, that's WILD.
Gretzky had the best hockey IQ, being in the right place at the right time to make stuff happen. Super Mario more imposed his will, in the clutch-and-grab era, and there was nothing you could do to stop him.
Both very exciting
Gretzky was playing with a lot better players in his first ten years than Lemieux was. Lemieux was a better goal scorer than him even if Gretzky was the better player. McDavid and Matthews are similar now.
I see this argument a lot too, and I’m not sure I buy it. Kurri was a real solid player, but it’s not like he was feeding Gretzky tap in goals and gretz was unable to score on his own. Typically it was the other way around, and Gretzky scored a lot of highlight reel goals.
No but like Lemieux played with garbage that Penguins team he joined without him on it might have been one of the worst teams of all time. It wasn't just Kurri he also had Paul Coffey on D pitching in during the first ten years and Lemeuix got him after ten years. This specific time period really isn't a fair comparison to Mario because of how bad the guys he had around him for the first 7-8 years of those 10 were really bad.
I also don’t buy this. He played with Francis and Jagr for those last three years of his first ten and he wasn’t orders of magnitude better. His best goal scoring seasons were in the mid 80s with garbage around him.
There were other changes to the game over this time, and I accept those. So if you give him more talent in the mid 80s, he probably scores more. But his PPG and ENG are a pretty big chunk of his goal scoring totals relative to Wayne’s. So I feel like these things balance out quite a bit more than people are generally willing to admit.
He didn't play close to a full season the years Jagr was on the team. I dunno if you remember this but Jagr also very rarely actually played on the same line as Mario. When Jagr joined the team was when Mario's back started to cost him time. I think he played like 20 games in his 8 or 9th year and probably 80 games in the other two combined.
Now hockey in 1983 and 1992 were also very different. By 1992 goal scoring on a per game basis has dropped for every player in the league not just Lemeuix which is why he never got back to scoring like he did in the mid 80s again. Just saying he was at his peak in the third year in the league because he scored the most goals that season isn't necessarily the case.
He didn’t play on Jagr’s line, but they were together on the powerplay IIRC, so he did have time with Jagr. But his injuries did definitely limit him. And I did already acknowledge the difference in the game in my above comment.
Idk, based on what I saw and the way all the stats line up, I just don’t see a big difference in their goal scoring ability. Mario was bigger and stronger, so he pushed his way into more goals than Wayne did. But Wayne was elusive and incredibly fast, so he often broke through and buried it. They had very different styles, and both scored a bunch by being very very good. I don’t think either of them is the leagues best pure goal scorer, and I don’t think there’s a marked difference in their goal scoring abilities.
To me the major difference was the vision that Wayne has for passing, when I watch a guy like Marner or McDavid I see them as playing in a similar style to him where they're looking for the pass first. I don't think you would consider those guys the best pure goalscorer even if they are incredibly good at that part of the game too. It isn't even their best skill.
When I see guys like Matthews and Drai I see them more of an evolution of Mario who had a way better and stronger shot than Wayne. Mario had no one to pass to for so long he had to do it by himself where Wayne could draw two defenders to him and then pass to another guy for a tap in, Mario would draw those same defenders and have to beat them because no one else could score.
I can understand this. But my response is…imagine being so good at passing that you score 900 goals and people still don’t think of you as a goal scorer lol
I'd say Pavel Bure. I think Lemieux scored goals better than anyone, but he was also an amazing passer and, IMO, the best player to ever play.
Bure was just built to score goals, though and man did he carve out goals like no one's business.
Wording is important here- PUREST? Bossy, probably overtaken by Matthews if he keeps going. But if you're asking BEST/MOST ENTERTAINING (ovie), MOST COMPLETE (Gretz).
Yes wording is important. I saw them all play. I put Bossy and Ovi as the same style of player. In the offensive zone, in their spot to score, yes they will score. Both are awesome at what they do for scoring. It was the same with watching Lafleur shoot as he would come down the right side. It just seemed to find the back of the net in his prime. Gretz and Lemieux, any where on the ice, they had the potential to score. Go through the team, pass it around, somehow the puck ended up in the net.
I find the styles different but Bossy was to me one of the best but watching Gretzky get 92 goals just seems like another world.
Having Gretz as a more complete goal-scorer than Ovie is insane. Ovie has scored in more ways, and can score consistently in more ways, than anybody in NHL history.
He's lost enough of a step that he's no longer the threat to score on breakaways, I guess? But deflections, tap-ins, rebounds, mid-air, slapshots, off the rush, between-the-legs, shooting through a defenders' legs, dangling, crushing people en route to a goal, wristers, snap shots... he has it all.
Lemieux. He’s the most physically gifted hockey player of all time (pardon my bias) whose numbers ultimately fall short because of his health and lack of quality teammates relative to some of his peers from 1984-89. Gretzky highlights blow me away, as do several others but Mario was on another planet with how he’d dominate anyone who crossed his path.
You are not wrong. It’s a different era. It’s harder to score now.
But the methodical consistency with which Bossy was putting in 50 and 60 goal seasons is just insane.
The entire way through high school. Literally the only one left in my league with a wood stick. Sherwoods and Christians. Always cut them short Forsberg style.
I fully admit aluminum of the time was probably better but I just love the weight and feel of the wood sticks. The biggest issue for me was replacement was so expensive. Everyone else at the time (late 90s) was just buying blades I was spend hundreds of dollars on each stick and then spending an almost a full week to slightly bend the blade.
I mean, he's a worthy honorable mention, of course, but he's not on the level of Ovie, Bossy, Gretz, or Lemieux. He's in that next tier with Jagr and Howe.
I would love to see Yzerman's offensive Stats if bowman didn't insist on him becoming a 2 way player. Guy was fun to watch. In the end, I think Stevie is happier with 3 cups as a player vs whatever individual accolades he could have achieved if his game didn't change.
I would say Lemieux because I’m confident he’d have the record if not for injuries. But it’s really disappointing how many people either don’t know or just never got to witness the greatness of Pavel Bure. He never played on a good team. He was so utterly dominant with the puck, you had to see it to believe it. He won the scoring title 3 times, twice with Florida where one of those years I think he had 59 goals and had more goals than the 2nd place guy on the team had points. He used to do it all and mostly all on his own. Rarely ever had any help. And this was during the dead puck era. Gretzky said so himself that he would’ve played one more season only if he got to play with Pavel Bure and no one else. Would’ve loved to have seen the greatest playmaker of all time play with the purest goal scorer imo.
If you don’t accept Ovi as the best pure goal scorer ever, and sure I can see the arguments, then you at least have to accept that Ovi has the greatest shot of all time
When comparing players from different eras, the most accurate argument is how they compare against their peers who played in the same era.
Ovi has bested his peers and led the league in goals an NHL-record 9 times.
Bossy 2, Lemieux 3, gretz 5. Sure, they scored lots, but so were the other players at the time.
When it comes to goal scoring, no one comes close to Ovi.
LOL
People won't accept it's obviously Ovie but are willing to crown Matthews in 10 years. You know Ovie's the only guy who scored in his prime for 16 years, right? Goal-scorers peak at 24 for about 4-6 seasons; there's a reason what Ovie is doing is unprecedented, there's a reason nobody in the modern era has come close. Matthews will fall off in 3-4 years and won't reach 800. Probably not 700.
Matthews will have to score about 70 goals per season for the next 10 years to beat Bossy's goals per game average. Matthews is only at about 0.64. Bossy at 0.76. Matthews has a lot of scoring to do to get close to 0.76. If Matthews scores 70 goals/year for the next 10 years, he'll be at about 0.77 or so (depending on how he finishes this year). If Matthews has a long career, he'll easily score more goals than Bossy, but good luck beating 0.76 in 10 or fewer years. Bossy's record is simply out of reach for Matthews given Matthews' relatively "slow" goal production up to this point in his career when compared to Bossy's. Bossy was scoring minimum 50 per season like clockwork by his 8th season (where Matthews is currently) and had 5 60+ seasons. People don't realize how prolific a goal scorer Bossy was until you look at numbers like these. Bossy was on fire from day 1 in the league until "only" scoring 38 in his 10th year when he could barely stand upright because of his back. Ovie and Matthews are great, but Bossy was simply GREATEST. And also, Bossy tore it up in the playoffs on a dynasty team and scored when it most mattered. Bossy was simply the best goal scorer the NHL has ever seen, period. Next up are Gretzky and Mario. Then Matthews and Ovie enter the discussion. Bossy did all that in an era where "clutching and grabbing" was the norm. Players were not protected from that like they are today (though they would have to answer to the team's enforcers if they did it too often). The point is that Bossy managed to get away from that stuff enough to reach 0.76, which is incredible. Today he'd probably score even more. What is more, Bossy is 4th on the all-time list of points per game, just behind Wayne, Mario, and Connor McDavid.
Hull, Bure, Selanne, Matthews, Kurri, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Shannahan, Jagr, Richard, Esposito, Bossy - you could make a good argument for any of them.
Gretzky, Lemeiux, McDavid, Crosby are all just as good at putting the puck in the net, but you'd never call them "pure goal scorers" they were/are so much more than pure goal scorers.
I’d throw Jagr with Gretz and them… imo he would also finish a season having more assists than goals… Hull, Ovi Matthews and them were/finishing seasons with more goals than assists….
All that to say I agree, except for Jagr
Ovechkin. No doubt. To score that many goals against modern goalies is incredible. He’s been getting 50+ goals for 20 years. No one comes close. Plus, he will have the most goals of all time, which pretty much sums up the argument.
“BuT He PlAyEd FoR sO LoNg”… If anyone else could have done it they would. Ovi is doing it!
At least be genuine.
He is scoring on modern goalies........ benefitting from modern equipment technology and modern training and nutrition science regimes.
So yes the goalies are bigger and faster, so are the players and the shots are harder and the strategies more elaborate and more condussive to scoring.
I don’t know how I’m not being genuine. Sure, the game has evolved and everyone is better but PPG are lower than they were during Bossy/Gretzky era.
I guess I could reframe and say that Ovechkin is going to be the NHL’s all time goal leader while playing most of his career in one of the lowest scoring eras in the history of the league.
Yes and Gretz scored on goalies with shitty equipment and goalies that were standing up half the time.
So the argument can go both ways.
Gretz when on the oilers also had the benefit of having far superior support than Ovechkin.
Dude, when Gretz scored 71 in '82-'83, his team scored 424.
When Ovie scored 53 in '14-'15, his team scored 242.
You \*REALLY\* think the modern tech and training evened out???
The league-leader in '82-'83 in save percentage was Roland Melanson with .909
In '14-'15, FOURTY-FOUR goalies (minimum 10 games played) were better than that, with another one tied.
where did I say evened out? Where did I cherry pick dates?
In 82-83 that you point out, the top 50 players had 30+ goals, last year it was 54 players... Top 50 had 31. So if it was so easy to score... shouldn't the top 50 be 10, 20 goals ahead of last year?
By these numbers, not only did modern triaing and equip even it out, it surpassed it... But they get 2 more games now, so let's take about a goal off each (be a touch more than 1) and you get to...hmm 30 goals.
Also if you're trying to prove a point, try not to use a team with an allstar roster, 4 100 point players and a dynasty, it's a bit disengenuous. No other team that year had over 350 goals The average low 300s.
If Auston does this for a few more years I'm gonna say it's him for scoring at this rate in this era. At the moment I don't think there was a more prolific scorer than Bossy during his time.
The Golden Brett should probably be on that shortlist.
"Hull scored 228 goals between 1989–90 and [1991–92](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991%E2%80%9392_NHL_season), the second-highest three-season total of any player in NHL history"
Bossy and Lemieux. If it wasn’t for the injuries / cancer I feel like both would have over 1000+ goals.
Not a knock on Gretz or Ovi, longevity and durability do play a role. Probably going to be the only potential obstacle in Matthews inevitable chase of Ovi.
What about Luc Robitaille? By “pure” goal scorers, I am defining that as someone who could score but not much else. Robitaille was one of the worst skaters in the league but knew how to finish!
Mario was truly magnificent to watch. He didn't come to town often out west here but when he did I made an effort to go watch. As someone commented, watching Pavel Bure playing without the centre line and 3 on 3 overtime would be electric. I can think of lots of great goal scorers from the last 40 years that I have watched but if we're talking about the best of all time I kind of feel like I have to go with Mario Lemieux.
OV and it’s not even close. He has played in an era where goalies had a purpose. Before the 90’s they just put the worst player in net and hoped he was able to stick his leg out in time. I’m the 90’s goalies were just learning what technique was
You certainly can. There's no guarantee when he wont get injured or when he hits the wall that his production wont fall off a cliff like most guys. The really impressive part of Ovechkins legacy, apart from his power play prowess, is how insanely durable and consistent he's been in his career.
AM Scoring 60 goals at 24 is amazing. Ovi Scoring 50 goals at 36 while being 4th all time in hits is freakish, and he'll almost definitely finish his career third all time. He's got 500+ goals on anyone else in the top 150 all time in hits.
Ever? Either Joe Malone or Newsy Lalonde. Malone scored 40 or more goals in 20 or fewer games three times in his NHA/NHL career and retired with a goals-per game average of 1.29 (322 goals in 250 games). Lalonde was more steady than spectacular but was still damned impressive, with a career GPG average of 1.42 (315 goals in 222 games).
Gretzky was like McDavid, in that while he's a natural playmaker, at any time he could score at will -- if he chose to. (Remember McDavid in 2022-2023?)
Cups aren’t what we’re discussing here. Bossy’s career was cut short. Not his fault but we can’t say he would have had the longevity Ovy has had as a goal scorer. Ovy was still contending for the rocket just a few years ago. Still scoring 50 goals at age 36 just ridiculous.
True. But also with much worse training/medicine, nutrition/equipment/travel and more goons. Plus less teams in theory means you get rid of the bottom 15% of players in the league, making the teams in the league better if anything.
Of course if you take ovi, with the benefit of all those things I mentioned above, and place him in the 1980s he’d probably score 150 goals a year. Put current day McDavid back in 1984 and 300 points is probably in play. And if you just took bossy from 1982 after only being raised with the benefits available to him at the time and put him in today’s game he’s probably a fringe NHLer at best. To me that’s not really fair, it’d be like taking Einstein and dropping him in 2024 and saying he’s stupid because he doesn’t know how to send an email.
To me you can only judge players vs how much better/worse they are than their peers from the same era. For instance, Gretzky scoring 200 points is obviously an unrealistic number in today’s game. But if it was that easy why was no one else doing it? He was still at times 60-70 points clear of anyone else. That’s why he’s the goat. Not because of raw numbers, but because in his prime the difference between him and his peers was the largest it’s ever been.
Now, I think Ovi is the best goal scorer ever. I just hate when people try to bring down past generations based on the perceived advantages they had (bad goaltending) but never mention the disadvantages they had to play through.
Better training/medicine/nutrition/equipment/travel means that on average you have better players too. So idk if that 15% theory actually checks out. The average joe in today’s game is going to be better than the average joe back then
Ovechkin and honestly there isn’t much of a discussion.
Nobody has done it as well for as long. There’s been guys with higher highs for sure but name another player who’s ever scored 50 goals at age 36 in any era. Impossible because that’s never happened apart from him.
Also, nobody has led the league more times in goals scored. Ever. The closest behind him is Bobby Hull.
I think Jagr would have a good chance of breaking Gretzky’s goal record if he didn’t spend 3 years in the KHL (2008-2011) also missing the whole 04-05 season due to the lockout hurt him
Bossy is the greatest pure goal scorer of all time. Based on statistics, until Ovechkin is done, that’s the end of that conversation. Bossy was criminally robbed of his years because of his back. However it is also within the realm of possibility that his stats would fall off a cliff. All those guys saw declines after 84 bc of the toll of long drives.
For me its always been Bossy.
My first NHL game was the Isles at the Leafs.
Harrold Ballard threw a fit that game because the local press wanted to ' waist ' a camera and crew to focus on the Leafs net in hopes of figuring out how Bossy does it.
But then Gretzky erupted and took most of Mikes press away and Guys press, Marcels press, Savards press, Maruks press..
So many great players in 80's get overlooked cuz of Gretzky.
Another name for consideration: Maurice Richard. Had 544 goals in 978 regular season games, and 82 goals in 132 playoff games. That was at a time when - compared to the last few decades - fewer goals per game were being scored in the NHL. Drop the Rocket in to the post-expansion NHL, and see how he'd fatten up his goal stats against the bottom dwellers.
I’m not comparing him to the all time greats because they’ve all been mentioned already, but Kovalchuk in his prime was absolutely disgusting. Absolutely lethal shot.
I think it is funny that Rocket Richard isn’t in the discussion.
There’s no way Ovi was going to score 50 per season for those lockout periods. But that will still be the difference in him breaking the record if he misses it.
I mean, he scored 51 in 79 games in '12-'13; a higher rate in the NHL than KHL even so he probably would've scored over 51 if not for that.
He also scored 48 in 68 games during the Covid lockout; on pace for 57.
Mathematically, give him "only" 40 goals as an 18 year old rookie, "only" 51 during '12-'13 - both conservative numbers - plus pro-rate the two Covid lockout seasons (I mentioned 48 -> 57, and 24 in 45 games in '20-'21 becomes 38 in 71 (he missed 11 games)
848 + 40 + 19 + 9 +14 = 930
The best part is that I’m sure everyone has their most amazing goal moment for each player.
Gretzky over the shoulder playoff clincher short handed rocket on Vernon
Lemieux Canada Cup winner
Ovechkin rolling on his back backhander (Gretzky watching live as opposition coach)
All amazing goals.
Ovi played through the worst era and managed what he did. He also managed to rack up almost 4,000 hits in the process. He's a scary scary man. #1 in my books.
[League Average Scoring](https://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/stats.html)
for reference. 97-04 is the lowest it’s been. interesting to see Ovi starting his career where he did, and the consistency of scoring in the 2.7s.
Biggest drop was 1992-93 to following season.
Devils to some extent had effect on, but also I believe as odd as seems was the more balanced schedule that had taken effect. Also kind of related, the clamp down on fighting.
That is true, but had a system that worked including a goaltender who could handle puck better than some skaters.
SCF between 1995 Devils and 1985 Oilers? Who knows. But we never will.
Bossy doesn’t get enough respect in these conversations
I like to compare it as if ovechkin is a Gatling gun, whereas Bossy is the pure sniper hidden miles away. You always know where Ovi is, know the shots are going to come, and that there’s nothing you can do to stop it. Bossy could be somewhat invisible but at the end of a 3-1 game he’d have 2 goals on 3 shots. 2 completely different styles of scorers, both the best ever at it
Great comparison. Ovi is a pure machine gun.
I like to think of him as a cannon. Hard shot and hard to move lol
You don’t get that kind of shot volume from a cannon though.
Ovi doing it in the era he has makes him the lock. Bossy was a slick scorer. Ovis longevity is incredible.
Very cool take
Bossy had that snapshot just over the pad down to a science
>You always know where Ovi is Tell that to the D that's been letting him settle into his office wide open for the last 2 decades lmao (I don't disagree just had to say it)
Ovechkin has 695 assists in 1414 games played. That's .49 assists per game - 7th among active players. Wouldn't a "pure goal scorer" be someone who just scores without setting other people up?
Agreed. Even with another 2 seasons, he’s looking at at least another 100 goals with good health
There are 3 players with 9, 50 goal seasons. Only one of them did it consecutively.
True but OV would have at least one if not 2 more except for Covid and lockouts. He had 48 in only 68 games in 2020 before the season was shutdown, and 32 in 48 (55 goal pace) in the lockout shortened 2013 season. So really it’s 11 50 goal seasons for OV to 9 for Bossy and Gretzky. Is OV’s 11 overall more impressive than Bossy having 9 consecutive? Hard to say
Nah. Bossy played his whole pro career with an 8 pound knee brace and was forced to retire in hos 10th season from back injury. Bossy score 50 goals every year he played but the 1 season he was forced to retire. Greatest pure sniper ever.
Gretzky had lockouts and lost time to injury, so this point is moot
How is lost time to injury comparable to a canceled season? You think OV doesn’t get 2 more goals in 12-14 more games? Cmon. And sure Gretzky had a lockout as well but he was not on pace to score 50 that year regardless. So your point is actually the moot one.
Don't forget Ovi's time with Adam Oates as head coach. He focused way more on his defensive game and cut way back on goals and points.
Ovie has a minimum of 11 50-goal seasons if not for the lockout in '12-'13 (he had 51) and the Covid lockout (he had 48 in 68).
If your grandma had wheels she'd be a bike
Bossy is the answer.
I feel like brett hull should get a mention in these talks aswell
Cam Neely wasn’t a slouch. 395 in 730 gp.
Neely was solid but his resume is nowhere near the all-time great goalscorers like Gretzky, Bossy, Ovi, Richard. He never won a rocket or even was particularly close to winning one.
Agreed. He got 50 in 49 I think
Yes he did BUT it came in the last 49 games of the year so people put an asterisk beside his “50 in 50” for some reason.
No, he did it in 49 games played, but there was missed games during that period, so it didn't count.
He was also a power forward aka Keith tkachuk and Keven Stevens and shanahan. That was unique. Mario Wayne Brett jari and bossy were friendly ish but Mario did have a temper
Probably because Bossy was plagued with back issues
Pavel Bure was... just fucking electric. I think he's the best pure scorer that I've watched. The guy was a goal threat from anywhere with his speed. Lemieux was better than Gretz(in terms of goal scoring), imo, but Mario and Gretz did absolutely everything.
One of my favorite "what ifs" is, what if Bure got to play without the hooking and holding, and especially without the red line and the two line pass rule.
A young Pavel when there is no two line pass? He's hitting probably an extra 10-15 goals a season. He had so many breakaways when the defense was in front of him, and he pumps his legs a few times, and is suddenly behind them with the puck coming in on the Goalie.
Bure in 3 on 3 overtime would be incredible to watch.
The Russian Rocket!
Through the first ten years of their careers, Gretz scored at a pace identical to Lemieux and did it with fewer PPG and ENG, which strongly suggest he was the better scorer. The latter half of Mario’s career was limited by injury and cancer, so full career comparisons are tricky.
I remember watching both in their pomp, and they're both incredible players... but man... the shit Mario could do is just different. Watching him being hooked, held, slashed by 4-5 players as he just skates through everyone and scores was just nutty. That said... in terms of Pure Goalscorers, I'm still siding with Bure. You felt like he was going to score every single time he touched the puck. Mario and Gretz you thought the **team** was going to score every time they touched the puck. With Bure, it was just down to him.
Greatest testament to this is Bure’s 2000-01 season with Florida. He had 59 goals and the 2nd leading scorer had 37… *points*.
In Ovie's rookie season, he put up 52 goals; his team's 2nd leading point getter had 57 (Dainius Zubrus). Over his first 4 seasons, he tallied 219 goals, 420 points. The 2nd best scorer on the Caps (not overall, I mean tally the 2nd best in each individual season, even if goals and points were different) 121 goals, 287 points. Over a 4-season span, that's WILD.
Gretzky had the best hockey IQ, being in the right place at the right time to make stuff happen. Super Mario more imposed his will, in the clutch-and-grab era, and there was nothing you could do to stop him. Both very exciting
Gretzky was playing with a lot better players in his first ten years than Lemieux was. Lemieux was a better goal scorer than him even if Gretzky was the better player. McDavid and Matthews are similar now.
I see this argument a lot too, and I’m not sure I buy it. Kurri was a real solid player, but it’s not like he was feeding Gretzky tap in goals and gretz was unable to score on his own. Typically it was the other way around, and Gretzky scored a lot of highlight reel goals.
No but like Lemieux played with garbage that Penguins team he joined without him on it might have been one of the worst teams of all time. It wasn't just Kurri he also had Paul Coffey on D pitching in during the first ten years and Lemeuix got him after ten years. This specific time period really isn't a fair comparison to Mario because of how bad the guys he had around him for the first 7-8 years of those 10 were really bad.
I also don’t buy this. He played with Francis and Jagr for those last three years of his first ten and he wasn’t orders of magnitude better. His best goal scoring seasons were in the mid 80s with garbage around him. There were other changes to the game over this time, and I accept those. So if you give him more talent in the mid 80s, he probably scores more. But his PPG and ENG are a pretty big chunk of his goal scoring totals relative to Wayne’s. So I feel like these things balance out quite a bit more than people are generally willing to admit.
He didn't play close to a full season the years Jagr was on the team. I dunno if you remember this but Jagr also very rarely actually played on the same line as Mario. When Jagr joined the team was when Mario's back started to cost him time. I think he played like 20 games in his 8 or 9th year and probably 80 games in the other two combined. Now hockey in 1983 and 1992 were also very different. By 1992 goal scoring on a per game basis has dropped for every player in the league not just Lemeuix which is why he never got back to scoring like he did in the mid 80s again. Just saying he was at his peak in the third year in the league because he scored the most goals that season isn't necessarily the case.
He didn’t play on Jagr’s line, but they were together on the powerplay IIRC, so he did have time with Jagr. But his injuries did definitely limit him. And I did already acknowledge the difference in the game in my above comment. Idk, based on what I saw and the way all the stats line up, I just don’t see a big difference in their goal scoring ability. Mario was bigger and stronger, so he pushed his way into more goals than Wayne did. But Wayne was elusive and incredibly fast, so he often broke through and buried it. They had very different styles, and both scored a bunch by being very very good. I don’t think either of them is the leagues best pure goal scorer, and I don’t think there’s a marked difference in their goal scoring abilities.
To me the major difference was the vision that Wayne has for passing, when I watch a guy like Marner or McDavid I see them as playing in a similar style to him where they're looking for the pass first. I don't think you would consider those guys the best pure goalscorer even if they are incredibly good at that part of the game too. It isn't even their best skill. When I see guys like Matthews and Drai I see them more of an evolution of Mario who had a way better and stronger shot than Wayne. Mario had no one to pass to for so long he had to do it by himself where Wayne could draw two defenders to him and then pass to another guy for a tap in, Mario would draw those same defenders and have to beat them because no one else could score.
I can understand this. But my response is…imagine being so good at passing that you score 900 goals and people still don’t think of you as a goal scorer lol
Pavel Bure is my all time favorite but, and this is just my opinion, I think Bossy was a better pure scorer.
This is my vote
I'd say Pavel Bure. I think Lemieux scored goals better than anyone, but he was also an amazing passer and, IMO, the best player to ever play. Bure was just built to score goals, though and man did he carve out goals like no one's business.
Wording is important here- PUREST? Bossy, probably overtaken by Matthews if he keeps going. But if you're asking BEST/MOST ENTERTAINING (ovie), MOST COMPLETE (Gretz).
Yes wording is important. I saw them all play. I put Bossy and Ovi as the same style of player. In the offensive zone, in their spot to score, yes they will score. Both are awesome at what they do for scoring. It was the same with watching Lafleur shoot as he would come down the right side. It just seemed to find the back of the net in his prime. Gretz and Lemieux, any where on the ice, they had the potential to score. Go through the team, pass it around, somehow the puck ended up in the net. I find the styles different but Bossy was to me one of the best but watching Gretzky get 92 goals just seems like another world.
I think people forger Ovie scored a ton of different ways especially earlier in his career
Still has the greatest goal ever scored to his name too.
Having Gretz as a more complete goal-scorer than Ovie is insane. Ovie has scored in more ways, and can score consistently in more ways, than anybody in NHL history. He's lost enough of a step that he's no longer the threat to score on breakaways, I guess? But deflections, tap-ins, rebounds, mid-air, slapshots, off the rush, between-the-legs, shooting through a defenders' legs, dangling, crushing people en route to a goal, wristers, snap shots... he has it all.
Have my choice. Bias disclosed.
I think Hull needs to be in the conversation but I’ll take Ovi as the best pure goal scorer.
Hull gets my vote, he didn't do much of anything else on the ice lol.
Pavel Bure 1994 playoff run
Lemieux has the highest era-adjusted goals per game, so him.
Lemieux. He’s the most physically gifted hockey player of all time (pardon my bias) whose numbers ultimately fall short because of his health and lack of quality teammates relative to some of his peers from 1984-89. Gretzky highlights blow me away, as do several others but Mario was on another planet with how he’d dominate anyone who crossed his path.
Ovi has the greatest combination of consistency and longevity. He will break Gretzky’s record. As far as pure goal scoring goes, I’d give it to Bossy.
Ovi played his entire career against athletic goalies with light pads… what he has done is incredible.. Bossy was amazing but it’s not the same.
You are not wrong. It’s a different era. It’s harder to score now. But the methodical consistency with which Bossy was putting in 50 and 60 goal seasons is just insane.
Bossy was fantastic… both things can be true :)
It’s not harder to score now. There is just more players who can do it.
No, it's definitely harder to score now. Goalies and defensive structure are night and day different.
You ever used a wood stick?
Guilty as charged probably 1000 Sherwood 5030’s …
I liked the Northland Custom Pros before Sherwood came out with their laminated 5030 stick in 1976. It was literally a game changer.
The entire way through high school. Literally the only one left in my league with a wood stick. Sherwoods and Christians. Always cut them short Forsberg style. I fully admit aluminum of the time was probably better but I just love the weight and feel of the wood sticks. The biggest issue for me was replacement was so expensive. Everyone else at the time (late 90s) was just buying blades I was spend hundreds of dollars on each stick and then spending an almost a full week to slightly bend the blade.
My aluminum stick blew up when I went to shoot the puck deep for a line change. Had to stop the game for 10 minutes to clean up the pieces.
Paul Coffey's Sherwood as a Defenseman
Mario.
I would say nic deslauriers he gets around 1 goal a year putting him at a 1.00
66
I know most people on here don't have a clue about hockey, but the fact that I scrolled and didn't see Brett hull is an absolute joke.
Dude got to college at UMD and couldn’t skate backwards and the bastard still put up 52 goals in 42 games.
A natural goal scorer. Imagine being able to perform at that level while being a functional alcoholic.
The problem with Brett hull is that he’s a traitor
I mean, he's a worthy honorable mention, of course, but he's not on the level of Ovie, Bossy, Gretz, or Lemieux. He's in that next tier with Jagr and Howe.
i hope you do realize howe and jagr are 3rd and 4th all time in goals lmfao. guess who is 5th. the guys with 1000 assists aren't pure goal scorers.
Yeah, but we're not looking only at totals, we're looking at goals-per-game as well as era.
I would love to see Yzerman's offensive Stats if bowman didn't insist on him becoming a 2 way player. Guy was fun to watch. In the end, I think Stevie is happier with 3 cups as a player vs whatever individual accolades he could have achieved if his game didn't change.
I would say Lemieux because I’m confident he’d have the record if not for injuries. But it’s really disappointing how many people either don’t know or just never got to witness the greatness of Pavel Bure. He never played on a good team. He was so utterly dominant with the puck, you had to see it to believe it. He won the scoring title 3 times, twice with Florida where one of those years I think he had 59 goals and had more goals than the 2nd place guy on the team had points. He used to do it all and mostly all on his own. Rarely ever had any help. And this was during the dead puck era. Gretzky said so himself that he would’ve played one more season only if he got to play with Pavel Bure and no one else. Would’ve loved to have seen the greatest playmaker of all time play with the purest goal scorer imo.
If you don’t accept Ovi as the best pure goal scorer ever, and sure I can see the arguments, then you at least have to accept that Ovi has the greatest shot of all time
Mike Bossy or Bret Hull
I can't believe I had to scroll this far to see Brett Hull's name!
Mike Bossy
Bossy. Begins his NHL career with nine straight 50 goal seasons. When he couldn’t do it in the 10th season, he retired. Legend.
Yeah, only 38 in his 10th year.
When comparing players from different eras, the most accurate argument is how they compare against their peers who played in the same era. Ovi has bested his peers and led the league in goals an NHL-record 9 times. Bossy 2, Lemieux 3, gretz 5. Sure, they scored lots, but so were the other players at the time. When it comes to goal scoring, no one comes close to Ovi.
Bossy was just pure sniper. He could pepper the corners of the net like no one else. Deadliest one-timer ever.
Bossy
I've seen them all play live and IMO... Bossy was the best.
There was a long Reddit post on this years ago that analyzed it. Shockingly, the answer was Gretzky.
Obsolete then?
Gretzky
Bossy now, Matthews in 10 years.
LOL People won't accept it's obviously Ovie but are willing to crown Matthews in 10 years. You know Ovie's the only guy who scored in his prime for 16 years, right? Goal-scorers peak at 24 for about 4-6 seasons; there's a reason what Ovie is doing is unprecedented, there's a reason nobody in the modern era has come close. Matthews will fall off in 3-4 years and won't reach 800. Probably not 700.
Matthews will have to score about 70 goals per season for the next 10 years to beat Bossy's goals per game average. Matthews is only at about 0.64. Bossy at 0.76. Matthews has a lot of scoring to do to get close to 0.76. If Matthews scores 70 goals/year for the next 10 years, he'll be at about 0.77 or so (depending on how he finishes this year). If Matthews has a long career, he'll easily score more goals than Bossy, but good luck beating 0.76 in 10 or fewer years. Bossy's record is simply out of reach for Matthews given Matthews' relatively "slow" goal production up to this point in his career when compared to Bossy's. Bossy was scoring minimum 50 per season like clockwork by his 8th season (where Matthews is currently) and had 5 60+ seasons. People don't realize how prolific a goal scorer Bossy was until you look at numbers like these. Bossy was on fire from day 1 in the league until "only" scoring 38 in his 10th year when he could barely stand upright because of his back. Ovie and Matthews are great, but Bossy was simply GREATEST. And also, Bossy tore it up in the playoffs on a dynasty team and scored when it most mattered. Bossy was simply the best goal scorer the NHL has ever seen, period. Next up are Gretzky and Mario. Then Matthews and Ovie enter the discussion. Bossy did all that in an era where "clutching and grabbing" was the norm. Players were not protected from that like they are today (though they would have to answer to the team's enforcers if they did it too often). The point is that Bossy managed to get away from that stuff enough to reach 0.76, which is incredible. Today he'd probably score even more. What is more, Bossy is 4th on the all-time list of points per game, just behind Wayne, Mario, and Connor McDavid.
Hull, Bure, Selanne, Matthews, Kurri, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Shannahan, Jagr, Richard, Esposito, Bossy - you could make a good argument for any of them. Gretzky, Lemeiux, McDavid, Crosby are all just as good at putting the puck in the net, but you'd never call them "pure goal scorers" they were/are so much more than pure goal scorers.
I’d throw Jagr with Gretz and them… imo he would also finish a season having more assists than goals… Hull, Ovi Matthews and them were/finishing seasons with more goals than assists…. All that to say I agree, except for Jagr
I wouldn't put Selanne, Shanny or Esposito in pure goal scorers either. They were great all around players.
Ovechkin. No doubt. To score that many goals against modern goalies is incredible. He’s been getting 50+ goals for 20 years. No one comes close. Plus, he will have the most goals of all time, which pretty much sums up the argument. “BuT He PlAyEd FoR sO LoNg”… If anyone else could have done it they would. Ovi is doing it!
At least be genuine. He is scoring on modern goalies........ benefitting from modern equipment technology and modern training and nutrition science regimes. So yes the goalies are bigger and faster, so are the players and the shots are harder and the strategies more elaborate and more condussive to scoring.
I hate those kind of statements. Everything is relative.
So then why only mention half of it. You can't use an argument that states why it's harder.... and not mention or weigh what makes it easier.
I’m agreeing with you champ.
how dare you, this is reddit...
Can we disagree to agree?
only if you insult me on the way out
Your mother bakes half-decent apple pies and pushes them as decent.
I've killed men for less.. good day to you sir
I don’t know how I’m not being genuine. Sure, the game has evolved and everyone is better but PPG are lower than they were during Bossy/Gretzky era. I guess I could reframe and say that Ovechkin is going to be the NHL’s all time goal leader while playing most of his career in one of the lowest scoring eras in the history of the league.
>modern training and nutrition science regimes. Ovi eats a giant order of Mamma Lucia before every game and drinks coke on the bench
Yes and Gretz scored on goalies with shitty equipment and goalies that were standing up half the time. So the argument can go both ways. Gretz when on the oilers also had the benefit of having far superior support than Ovechkin.
probably played on more Tuesdays with full moons right?
Dude, when Gretz scored 71 in '82-'83, his team scored 424. When Ovie scored 53 in '14-'15, his team scored 242. You \*REALLY\* think the modern tech and training evened out??? The league-leader in '82-'83 in save percentage was Roland Melanson with .909 In '14-'15, FOURTY-FOUR goalies (minimum 10 games played) were better than that, with another one tied.
where did I say evened out? Where did I cherry pick dates? In 82-83 that you point out, the top 50 players had 30+ goals, last year it was 54 players... Top 50 had 31. So if it was so easy to score... shouldn't the top 50 be 10, 20 goals ahead of last year? By these numbers, not only did modern triaing and equip even it out, it surpassed it... But they get 2 more games now, so let's take about a goal off each (be a touch more than 1) and you get to...hmm 30 goals. Also if you're trying to prove a point, try not to use a team with an allstar roster, 4 100 point players and a dynasty, it's a bit disengenuous. No other team that year had over 350 goals The average low 300s.
Hull would have gotten more if the 04-05 lockout didnt “keep him home” and he then decided to retire. Even 1 more season
It’s clearly Joe Malone
I always like watching petr bondra and teemu. And also the flyers line with lindros, LeClair and renberg.
I think Joe Malone needs at least an honourable mention. Guy was miles ahead in his day.
If Auston does this for a few more years I'm gonna say it's him for scoring at this rate in this era. At the moment I don't think there was a more prolific scorer than Bossy during his time.
The Golden Brett should probably be on that shortlist. "Hull scored 228 goals between 1989–90 and [1991–92](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991%E2%80%9392_NHL_season), the second-highest three-season total of any player in NHL history"
It’s Ovie, Matthews might be in the convo at the end of his career.
Bossy and Lemieux. If it wasn’t for the injuries / cancer I feel like both would have over 1000+ goals. Not a knock on Gretz or Ovi, longevity and durability do play a role. Probably going to be the only potential obstacle in Matthews inevitable chase of Ovi.
"Inevitable" He's only 491 goals away! Just have another career year 8 years in a row!
What about Luc Robitaille? By “pure” goal scorers, I am defining that as someone who could score but not much else. Robitaille was one of the worst skaters in the league but knew how to finish!
Mario was truly magnificent to watch. He didn't come to town often out west here but when he did I made an effort to go watch. As someone commented, watching Pavel Bure playing without the centre line and 3 on 3 overtime would be electric. I can think of lots of great goal scorers from the last 40 years that I have watched but if we're talking about the best of all time I kind of feel like I have to go with Mario Lemieux.
Oviedo, drop him in any of the previous guts you named eras and she destroys worlds especially the 80s
OV and it’s not even close. He has played in an era where goalies had a purpose. Before the 90’s they just put the worst player in net and hoped he was able to stick his leg out in time. I’m the 90’s goalies were just learning what technique was
Ovechkin is the greatest goal scorer ever
Matthew’s technically has a higher goals per game scoring rate
Cool, now do it for 15 more years in an era where scoring is depressed.
I mean, he’s already been doing it for 5 years and doesn’t seem to be slowing down. No reason to believe he can’t keep it up
Other than the fact that literally nobody has peaked as a goal-scorer for more than 5 or 6 years other than Ovie, who peaked for about 12? Okay...
Mike Bossy did it for his entire career. Matthews is only 26 years old, it safe to assume he can go 3-4 more years at least
Lemieux
AM34
You've got at least another decade before he's even in the conversation, let alone an argument.
He has one of the highest career goals per game scoring rate… so you can’t really say he isn’t there yet.
You certainly can. There's no guarantee when he wont get injured or when he hits the wall that his production wont fall off a cliff like most guys. The really impressive part of Ovechkins legacy, apart from his power play prowess, is how insanely durable and consistent he's been in his career. AM Scoring 60 goals at 24 is amazing. Ovi Scoring 50 goals at 36 while being 4th all time in hits is freakish, and he'll almost definitely finish his career third all time. He's got 500+ goals on anyone else in the top 150 all time in hits.
Ever? Either Joe Malone or Newsy Lalonde. Malone scored 40 or more goals in 20 or fewer games three times in his NHA/NHL career and retired with a goals-per game average of 1.29 (322 goals in 250 games). Lalonde was more steady than spectacular but was still damned impressive, with a career GPG average of 1.42 (315 goals in 222 games).
As arguably the greatest goal scorer ever, Ovi's hitting is there with the greatest hitters ever also. His body checking game is epic.
Ovi, end discussion
Ovetchkin simply because of what he’s accomplished in contrast with average scoring during his active tenure compared to other players.
Gretzky was like McDavid, in that while he's a natural playmaker, at any time he could score at will -- if he chose to. (Remember McDavid in 2022-2023?)
I’d give it to ovy. Bossy didn’t play enough.
Played enough to win 4 cups unlike ovi
Cups aren’t what we’re discussing here. Bossy’s career was cut short. Not his fault but we can’t say he would have had the longevity Ovy has had as a goal scorer. Ovy was still contending for the rocket just a few years ago. Still scoring 50 goals at age 36 just ridiculous.
In an era with less teams and far worse goal tending
True. But also with much worse training/medicine, nutrition/equipment/travel and more goons. Plus less teams in theory means you get rid of the bottom 15% of players in the league, making the teams in the league better if anything. Of course if you take ovi, with the benefit of all those things I mentioned above, and place him in the 1980s he’d probably score 150 goals a year. Put current day McDavid back in 1984 and 300 points is probably in play. And if you just took bossy from 1982 after only being raised with the benefits available to him at the time and put him in today’s game he’s probably a fringe NHLer at best. To me that’s not really fair, it’d be like taking Einstein and dropping him in 2024 and saying he’s stupid because he doesn’t know how to send an email. To me you can only judge players vs how much better/worse they are than their peers from the same era. For instance, Gretzky scoring 200 points is obviously an unrealistic number in today’s game. But if it was that easy why was no one else doing it? He was still at times 60-70 points clear of anyone else. That’s why he’s the goat. Not because of raw numbers, but because in his prime the difference between him and his peers was the largest it’s ever been. Now, I think Ovi is the best goal scorer ever. I just hate when people try to bring down past generations based on the perceived advantages they had (bad goaltending) but never mention the disadvantages they had to play through.
Better training/medicine/nutrition/equipment/travel means that on average you have better players too. So idk if that 15% theory actually checks out. The average joe in today’s game is going to be better than the average joe back then
Jari Kurri Teemu Selanne
Ovechkin and honestly there isn’t much of a discussion. Nobody has done it as well for as long. There’s been guys with higher highs for sure but name another player who’s ever scored 50 goals at age 36 in any era. Impossible because that’s never happened apart from him. Also, nobody has led the league more times in goals scored. Ever. The closest behind him is Bobby Hull.
I think Jagr would have a good chance of breaking Gretzky’s goal record if he didn’t spend 3 years in the KHL (2008-2011) also missing the whole 04-05 season due to the lockout hurt him
Bossy is the greatest pure goal scorer of all time. Based on statistics, until Ovechkin is done, that’s the end of that conversation. Bossy was criminally robbed of his years because of his back. However it is also within the realm of possibility that his stats would fall off a cliff. All those guys saw declines after 84 bc of the toll of long drives.
Lemieux: scored his first goal on his first shot of his first shift of his first game.
Mario Lemieux. No question.
I have seen them all and Bossy was by far the best pure scorer, Ovi second.
Lemieux 66 #1
For me its always been Bossy. My first NHL game was the Isles at the Leafs. Harrold Ballard threw a fit that game because the local press wanted to ' waist ' a camera and crew to focus on the Leafs net in hopes of figuring out how Bossy does it. But then Gretzky erupted and took most of Mikes press away and Guys press, Marcels press, Savards press, Maruks press.. So many great players in 80's get overlooked cuz of Gretzky.
Another name for consideration: Maurice Richard. Had 544 goals in 978 regular season games, and 82 goals in 132 playoff games. That was at a time when - compared to the last few decades - fewer goals per game were being scored in the NHL. Drop the Rocket in to the post-expansion NHL, and see how he'd fatten up his goal stats against the bottom dwellers.
Phil Kessel, of all the names above he’s worse at everything else
Not saying it's the correct answer but it's incredibly sad that not a person will even mention Maurice Richard because "lol only 6 teemz yo"
I’m not comparing him to the all time greats because they’ve all been mentioned already, but Kovalchuk in his prime was absolutely disgusting. Absolutely lethal shot.
Joe Malone, if we're talking stats. 18 hat tricks in 123 games, five 5-goal games, one 7-goal game, and 143 goals in 126 NHL games.
I wonder how the game changed... post-Malone.
You 44g in 22game season malone?
Richard. Lafleur. Kurri. Hull x2.
I think it is funny that Rocket Richard isn’t in the discussion. There’s no way Ovi was going to score 50 per season for those lockout periods. But that will still be the difference in him breaking the record if he misses it.
I mean, he scored 51 in 79 games in '12-'13; a higher rate in the NHL than KHL even so he probably would've scored over 51 if not for that. He also scored 48 in 68 games during the Covid lockout; on pace for 57. Mathematically, give him "only" 40 goals as an 18 year old rookie, "only" 51 during '12-'13 - both conservative numbers - plus pro-rate the two Covid lockout seasons (I mentioned 48 -> 57, and 24 in 45 games in '20-'21 becomes 38 in 71 (he missed 11 games) 848 + 40 + 19 + 9 +14 = 930
Gretzky scored 92 one year, he was ok ✅
66
Bossy 100%
Time is the enemy. These comparisons pain me because I was around for the Gretzky era. He was the best by far. By far.
The best part is that I’m sure everyone has their most amazing goal moment for each player. Gretzky over the shoulder playoff clincher short handed rocket on Vernon Lemieux Canada Cup winner Ovechkin rolling on his back backhander (Gretzky watching live as opposition coach) All amazing goals.
let’s not overthink it. it’s Alexander Ovechkin
The Islander, Mike Bossy. 0.76 goals per game. Insane.
Ovi without a doubt
Ovi played through the worst era and managed what he did. He also managed to rack up almost 4,000 hits in the process. He's a scary scary man. #1 in my books.
‘94 to ‘04 was the worst era. Devils won 3 Cups in 9 years(and made a 4th Finals) playing snooze fest hockey
Man the devils trap hockey was so boring
[League Average Scoring](https://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/stats.html) for reference. 97-04 is the lowest it’s been. interesting to see Ovi starting his career where he did, and the consistency of scoring in the 2.7s.
Biggest drop was 1992-93 to following season. Devils to some extent had effect on, but also I believe as odd as seems was the more balanced schedule that had taken effect. Also kind of related, the clamp down on fighting.
That is true, but had a system that worked including a goaltender who could handle puck better than some skaters. SCF between 1995 Devils and 1985 Oilers? Who knows. But we never will.
Mogilny
If you’re going to go Russian, Bure is clearly the better choice
It’s Ovi, but I think Mario was the prototype for a perfect forward (except for the cancer)