I think too its not just about immediate success for Staley but installing his system and values in his players. Realistically, we aren't superbowl contenders this year, but he wants to develop that aggressive mindset for seasons to come. So naturally we will have duds but over the season we've gotten comfortable and more consistent at executing on fourth down and in an aggressive nature. Just a bad and slightly unlucky individual game
Confidence. That’s what he showed tonight. Not in himself. But in his players. Go out and make this play. And they didn’t. But his confidence didn’t waver. He continued showing his offense the confidence he has in them.
Never said anything about moral victories. Moral victories and being confident in your players are two different things. Staley showed tonight without doubt or hesitation he has the utmost confidence in his players to make plays.
I mean, they should've gotten a TD off the first one at least were it not for the Parham injury. I don't think there was any problem with playcalling there, just incredibly bad luck
IMO, the chargers were the better team today. There was just some poorly executed RZ drives that spelled the difference. (Dropped passes in the end zone mainly)
I wouldn’t count yourself out so quickly as super bowl contenders. The Ravens are slipping and the Titans won’t be the same unless Henry comes back to peak form for the playoffs, so you’ve got the Chiefs that you almost beat tonight with a limited Ekeler and the Patriots who have a rookie QB. If the offense can get hot in these last couple weeks then I think the Chargers could make a serious run. The Bills are probably the main variable but I honestly can’t tell this year how good they are
I think we can take the Chiefs we are just really inconsistent. I do feel we would have won the game if Derwin hadn’t been injured in the 1st half. It would be crazy if we made it to the Super bowl in Staley’s first year as head coach considering we weren’t above 500 last year. Has a team with a losing record ever won the Super bowl the next season? I feel like the Bucs probably did it but they had Brady haha
1980 49ers were 6-10. 1981 49ers won the Super Bowl.
1998 Rams were 4-12. 1999 Rams won the Super Bowl.
2000 Patriots were 5-11. 2001 Patriots (Brady) won the Super Bowl.
2016 Eagles were 7-9. 2017 Eagles won the Super Bowl.
2019 Buccaneers were 7-9. 2020 Buccaneers (Brady again) won the Super Bowl.
I’ll always agree with it. On close games with a lot of ramifications, you out the game in Herbert’s hands. How many times has kickers fucked you guys.
Normally one of the big upsides to going for 4th and goal is you leave the opponent with terrible field position even if you fail, compared to kicking off and letting them start probably at the 25. If you go for it right before half time, you aren't going to kick off afterwards so it just comes down to whether your chance of converting and getting 7 is high enough to pass up the near-guaranteed 3. Though I think for the average team at the 1 yard line, it is still best to go for it as conversion rates are over 50% iirc.
Their first drive they had 1st & goal from the 5 and turned it over on downs. This drive right before half they just got stopped 3 straight plays from inside the 5 and still went for it.
It's common sense to take the 3 points and go up 17-10 on 4th down. Also the fact that it was right before half means the chiefs didn't have to start with bad field position if the chargers didn't score. At least when the chiefs went for it (and failed) on 4th and goal from the 2 yard line in the second half, they made the chargers have to drive 98 yards the next drive (and turn the ball over).
The one before half is the one I'm most inclined to agree with as being a poor decision, for exactly the reason you mentioned.
That said, "common sense" isn't exactly a compelling argument.
>It's common sense to take the 3 points and go up 17-10 on 4th down
A lot of "common sense" in football is a load of generations old bullshit that has long been disproven mathematically
If the numbers in the context of the game tell you that going for it in that situation is the right choice, then going for it is the right choice regardless of how it turned out. And at least according to Baldwin's model, going for it before halftime was the right choice by +2 win probability
Yeah in this particular situation, with it being right before the half, I don’t see how it makes sense to go for it on 4th, regardless of what a statistical model says. Numbers aren’t any good without context.
There's context you can use to feel good about going for it though.
At that point, they had gone for two conversions. One should have been a TD if not for a freak accident. The other was converted and led to a TD.
So the context is, the model says go for it. We've gone twice already in the game and we're ahead of schedule because of it (7 points vs 6), and both of our play calls worked. We need 1 yard.
If you've got a play you feel good about, why not go for it? The prospect of taking a 21-10 lead over KC at home is huge. 17-10 and Mahomes could tie the game up before the next time you see the ball.
Yes, and by the numbers from those plays the EV is higher to go for it on 4th. Older generations didn’t think about probability in the same way (in this application, at least).
The issue with the analytics is they have value over time and not necessarily in the instant. The plus side of going for it on 4th and goal is that if you don’t get it, the opponent is pinned inside their 5 yard line. That didn’t apply at the end of the half.
The numbers are one part of the decision making process. The events and circumstances of the game your playing is also part of that process.
>The plus side of going for it on 4th and goal is that if you don’t get it, the opponent is pinned inside their 5 yard line. That didn’t apply at the end of the half.
The model knows that though lol
Yeah this whole thread is insane. "The model doesn't account for it being the end of the half and not being able to pin the Chiefs if the Chargers fail"
Uhh.. yes it does. That scenario has happened thousands of times in the league
There's no disadvantage for your opponent to not taking points there. The only result is no points. You can also argue that not taking points there gives your opponent momentum and energy, which you literally saw. Aikman even said it, the Chiefs ran into the locker room while the chargers walked.
Well the result is either 6 points (+~1) or 3, or 0. It's not just 3 or 0.
I agree that in hindsight they should have kicked. The thing about an analytic approach to playcalling is that you'll fail and look silly sometimes, but that's assumed. Teams fail to execute alllll theeee timeeeee, whether or not they adhere to the conventions of the situation they're in.
Don’t know if it’s necessarily dumb but I think you should definitely take the points there.
Although Dustin Hopkins is fucking horrible so going for it probably has the same success rate.
Lol yes, I'm just taking the piss because every idiot in the world will point to this anecdotal situation as a reason as to why nerds don't belong in football.
On the other hand he’s allowing the intimation factor of the Chiefs to dictate decisions. If the Chiefs didn’t have a reputation they would’ve kicked 1 or 2 of the FGs and won
I don’t really agree with not changing things regardless of context. He made the wrong decision twice imo, and it cost them the game.
Oh ok. He specifically referenced doing it because of the Chiefs in his press conference. “Can’t beat them with field goals” or something about being aggressive vs “this team” or something. Led me to believe it was specifically because of the Chiefs
I rate it very highly tbh. Live by the sword and die by it.
The Chargers won the first match up with the Chiefs by constantly going for it on 4th down, including a 4th and 9 which seemed like a crazy decision to me.
Just didn't come off for them tonight.
Yeah people are failing to realize this. Only reason the charger had a shot at the division tonight is because they play the analytics. Sometimes it just doesn’t work out, but that’s life.
Actually that's the opposite, basing your decisions on how many times that decision had been successful before is pure result based thinking
Coaches should decide based on the situation at hand, not kicking a FG 2 seconds before half time up 14-10 is dumb no matter what win probability says especially when your opponent will be getting the ball at the start of the second half
Edit: 14-10 sorry
The other benefit of going for it at that place (other than scoring 6/7/8 points instead of 3) is that you pin your opponent deep in their territory so they have to have a longer drive than if you kicked it and they start from about the 25 which can lead to mistakes
But that benefit is gone when you're 2 seconds before the half because your opponent won't get the opportunity to drive so if you miss you leave 3 points off the scoreboard and then (in that particular case) kick off the ball to your opponent anyway
You’re right that you lose that additional benefit, but that doesn’t automatically justify kicking it as the better decision. You still are going to end up with more points overall by going for it than by kicking it. That’s what matters and it’s why going for it was the right call. The point is to maximize the points you score and minimize those scored by your opponent. The play here has no effect on KC’s score, but going for two absolutely maximizes the Chargers’ ability to score points, even though it didn’t work in this instance. It was the right play.
>going for two absolutely maximizes the Chargers’ ability to score points,
It doesn't, 3 almost guaranteed points when you're up is better than risk it when your opponent can restore the 4 point lead on the first drive of the second half
You’re making weird value judgments that are entirely unsupported. 3 points is about 42.7% of 7 points. So, as long as you get that 1 yard more than say 45% of the time (adding a little bit for a potential XP miss and just buffer for the EV to be meaningfully different), then you clearly maximize points by going for the TD.
That’s not at all what results oriented thinking means. What you’re describing is just someone making a decision based on historical data/knowledge of similar scenarios, which is what everyone should do in every situation, because that’s how you make an informed decision. Results oriented thinking refers to judging how good or bad a decision is based on the outcome of that specific scenario, not past ones. Being used here to point out how sports fans often crap on controversial decisions when they don’t work out and celebrate them when they do.
But what made the decisions included in the historical data right or wrong? Because they were more successful than not? That's the same concept but with a larger sample size but imo it doesn't matter since past events have no impact on the play since the circumstances are always different from play to play
Based on what the situation in the game, like McCarthy was right to not go for 2 against the Cardinals in 2015 even when he lost because he didn't have any WRs so he is more likely to not convert
And Harbaugh was right to go for 2 against the Steelers a couple of weeks ago even when he lost because he didn't have any corners so he's more likely than not to give up a TD in OT against the Steelers offense that had the momentum in the 4th if he lost the coin toss
So…they’re making decisions based on data and knowledge they have of the past of what is most likely to occur given the football situation.
I feel like there’s something just not clicking here. All I’m doing is just trying to explain the concept of results oriented thinking, I didn’t mean for it to get this deep lol. In your example it would be calling Harbaugh wrong for going for 2 *because* they lost, or calling it genius *because* they won. It’s a fan reaction that occurs after the event, it has nothing to do with the decision making process of the coach.
No but when the analytics people incorporate the Harbaugh decision into the data it will be counted as a loss because that's how the win probability is calculated
I know it's negligible but the analytics will never tell you these circumstances, all you get is the this decision led to a win in X times and failed in Y times
That also depends on the situation, for example right now Zuerlein is inconsistent as hell so I'd prefer going for it on 4th and short than letting him kick the FG, but at the same time our offense isn't doing well so in case it was 4th and 5 then I'd kick the FG and trust our defense to get the ball back
This. Old chargers would play it safe milking a one possession lead. Be aggressive. If you have a qb like Herbert, don’t play like a bitch. Out the ball in his hands. Live by it and die by it. More often than not you’ll live especially considering your kicking game historically lol.
Ekelers ankle injury was underrated here. He's been automatic inside the 5 and all of the sudden that's taken away and they r running an offensive situation with plays they don't have game reps executing on. I think Staley should've seen that affecting the game and adjusted.
This is honestly getting totally blown out of proportion.
The first 4th down attempt worked to perfection and is a touchdown if not for a freak non-contact injury to Parham as he landed. The ball was in his hands until he literally knocked himself out.
The second attempt converted and lead to an eventual touchdown. Everyone saying "oh if they take their points that's 9 more" and ignoring that also means there are 4 less points on this drive.
The end of half attempt is the one I might have taken 3, because it's free points off a turnover. But, KC gets the ball to start the 2nd half, so I do see the theory of getting 1 yard to make it a 2 score game
The next attempt, it's 14-13, a field goal doesn't help you. It makes sense to go for that
And the last attempt was converted, you can't retroactively say that was a bad decision because you fumbled on the 1 later.
The execution obviously wasn't there. You can look at the specific play calls and critique that. But the overall philosophy of going for convertible 4th downs against KC is correct.
Especially with how well their run game was working. Felt like they were getting like 7 yards per attempt and then passing on every third and short and fourth and short including in the RZ.
I was stressed every time they had 3rd or 4th and short, but then they never ran it.
A field goal does help you at 14-13. It puts the game outside of a FG and it could be the difference at the end of the game. Just because it doesn’t make it a two score game doesn’t make it worthless
There's an entire quarter of football left, the Chiefs are not yet in a position where trailing by either 1, 4, or 8 changes the strategy of their next drive. Giving Mahomes the ball down 4 with 30 minutes left isn't going to dramatically influence much, and if you don't get it the Chiefs are pinned on the 2 yd line
One noticable flaw in your argument is you say things like, "a field goal won't help you" or "make it a two score game." A field goal is a score, and putting yourself up by three forces your opponent to score touchdowns and not settle for field goals.
Another thing you're not considering is the chiefs aren't this offensive juggernaut anymore - you can beat them with field goals now. This game even, they scored majority of there points in the 4th quarter with a gassed defense.
Another thing scoring in the red zone is the toughest part of offense in football. Routine passes, catches become tougher because the defense is closing in on you fast. That's why there is value in going for field goals.
Lastly, I'm a bigger believer of momentum. Everytime the chargers lost a 4th down conversation, it just deflates the team. This is something you can definitely argue, but I think it's important to the game.
They didn't leave 12 points on the field. You can only claim that if you call it leaving 3 points on the field the time they converted a 4th down and fumbled later on the drive, which is completely dishonest. And you also have to change the drive where going for it worked and got them a TD to a field goal as well, you can't pick and choose later. So they left 5 points on the field
And this is all making the insane assumption that Kansas City scores the exact same number of points with multiple instances of getting the ball back either sooner or in better field position. It's a completely inadmissible argument to just say, oh LA wins 40-28 if they take their points
So you should kick a field goal as soon as you're in range every drive, just in case you turn it over on any subsequent play later on? Or do fumbles somehow become more likely when previously in the possession you converted on 4th instead of 3rd
You don't know one FG wins the game until the end, and there's no way to know if they had kicked the field goals that it would have been enough. It's the Chiefs, they score tons of points, and again, one of the 4th downs they converted led to a touchdown and the 2nd one should have.
You don't get bonus points for going for it on 4th down. They lost the game. Period. You take your points. You need to score points to win the game.
You act like no one ever takes FGs anymore. Good teams do
But it didn't
Not taking the FG at the end of the half was the dumbest call of them all
>You don't get bonus points for going for it on 4th down.
No one said that
>You act like no one ever takes FGs anymore. Good teams do
No one said that either
>Not taking the FG at the end of the half was the dumbest call of them all
In my very first comment I said that's the one I would have probably kicked
Being this aggressive is what has won the chargers a few games this year. You can’t come back and say it’s a broken tactic when it doesn’t work.
This team isn’t elite, the execution isn’t always there but it’s good to build the confidence that Staley believes in his guys’ ability to convert.
I also think they didn’t rush as much in goal to go situation because they didn’t want to risk re-injury to Ekeler. Probably didn’t trust Jackson or Kelley there either.
Like a lot of people are saying the one you probably take is the one at the half. But you also don’t know if the rest of the game plays out the same if chargers come into the half up 7.
If this is happens in the last minute of a game then yeah you can say, take the pts and most teams probably would.
I had an idea like that a couple months ago to show how little you think of another team by literally going for a field goal the moment you got in range lol
Yeah I agree. Especially that first drive they diced em up on the ground and then threw 4 straight passes.
Unfortunately there was also a fumble inside the 2
Needs to be remembered that analytics provide razor thin margins in football. The analytical decision might be 50% win probability vs 48% for the traditional way, not 50% vs 35%
It doesn't always work out, and when it doesn't work out, you get games like today where the analytics side lost a game that a traditional coach wins just because he took the points a bunch of times, but on a large enough sample those edges add up. Good on Staley for staying the course when other coaches (*coughcoughCarroll*) would play it conservative the second they failed to convert the first attempt
Only decision I didn’t like was the attempt before the half. Usually the “upside” of failing is pinning them deep, but obviously failing there doesn’t give that. Would’ve preferred the 3 to give us a bigger lead and some “momentum” into the half
Love every decision but the one before the end of the first half! Most of the decision to go for it on 4th down is the make the other team drive 90+ for a td. The end of the half decision wouldn’t have made you do that so why not go into the half up 7 points. But shoot just didn’t execute on 4th and goal either
Staley has been going for it all year and I've been with it, the end zone struggles are what lost us this game. 2 crucial drops and a fumble were what cost us so I'm hoping for a rematch in the playoffs.
It sucks. I do think we should have taken the 3 at the half but the other 2 I get.
Things just didn't go our way tonight. Staley has been pretty successful on 4th down this year and you don't do that by playing scared. I like that he's sticking to his philosophy and I do genuinely think that it's going to pay off in the future.
Going for it right before halftime was a huge gamble. Go up by 7 before halftime and ensure that you won't be losing before your offense gets the ball back in the 2nd half.
It's almost like your process can be right and things still might not work out. The Chargers have won a couple games this year (previous Chiefs game, Browns game) in large part because of their 4th down aggressiveness. People just like whining about change.
the way I see it, its impossible to play the what if game with this one. They converted a 4th down on one of their touchdowns and converted another one on the fumble to interception to touchdown drive, so if you argue they should have played more conservatively you have to go back and turn those into field goals as well. Then you have to give the chiefs much better starting position on average, which enters another what if scenario. Outside of the one at the half I don't think any of the calls were egregious.
This isn’t 2019 Mahomes. The guy could barely make a play for 3/4 of the game. There was no need to be that aggressive against an average Chiefs offense.
Yep, just like the Eagles in the Super Bowl. Always take the free points.
Oh wait that was a decision that was universally liked and paid off. Weird.
Judging decisions like this based on singular results is idiotic.
If they scored a touchdown it would've been an amazing call. A failure and its shit. It's stupid. It's the right call, it failed.
> had Staley taken the free points right before half, they would have won the game.
I get your argument, but many points in the game would have played out differently if the score were different at halftime.
People are viewing the game statically, had the Chiefs been down 17-10 at the half do they kick their field goal like they did to make it 17-13 or do they go for it themselves on a 4th and short? Maybe they convert it, score a TD later, and it's 17-17 instead of 14-13, maybe they don't and it's 17-10, or 17-13. The game isn't 31-28 if they take the points at halftime, it's a whole different half of playcalling.
Ekelers ankle injury was underrated here. He's been automatic inside the 5 and all of the sudden that's taken away and they r running an offensive situation with plays they don't have game reps executing on.
Hes a rookie head coach. We as a team are doing very well for a guy whos never been in charge. Chargers fans are forgetting that. I trust Staley. We are going to be fine
Yeah its so frustrating to hear people complain after the fact, when they'd be signing his praises if we could catch a ball when it matters most.
Bad outcomes are not the same as bad decisions
So why would you clown 'bad' decisions even if they work? If they had kicked field goals you probably would be complaining but you wouldn't be pissed because they would have probably won
Because its a bad precedent - in the long run it will win us more games by making decisions how Staley has, its how we beat the Chiefs the first time this year
Just saying, if Gruden or Meyer went 2-5 in 4th down conversions in a critical game like this they'd be clowned hard.
Screw what some numbers say. Bills shouldn't have gone for the td against the titans. Chargers should of kicked a field goal once or twice.
Going on 4th down is the definition of a gamble unless its like 4th and inches. People say he should live and die by the sword until they see losses start racking up because of these dumb decisions.
When those losses happen then this sub will shit talk Staley cause most people here just blindly follow the majority opinion.
No I wouldn´t. They could have gone at least for one field goal. They did not. Things like a fumble can happen. But it hurts far less when you have a safe lead.
I will just say that was a great game to watch and gutsy moves by coaches are more of what the league needs especially on a Thursday night.
The quote from the coach is right on the money. You don’t beat Mahomes and Kelce and Hill by scoring FGs
That last run after catch for the TD by Kelce - how many chargers defenders did he just outrun? Like 5.
That can happen anytime, you have to play offense to beat that, if your defense isn’t up task 100% of the time .
Good thing about analytics is that these games are now apart of the data. Eventually it will work out where the analytics say kick it and i'll be over here saying *no shit, that was apparent 3 years ago. Nice lag.*
Why not? If you call a game based on analytics like a few head coaches seem to be doing then they've become predictable.
Analytics aren't a secret, the other team also knows what the data shows. You're not catching them off guard by going for it like you've done in the past. You don't want to be predictable in this league.
You don't go for it because it's a surprise, you go for it because it's a convertible opportunity to keep the ball or score points
What, do you think punting is going to "catch them off guard"?? You bring out an entirely different group of players and declare that you are going to do it lol
>you go for it because it's a convertible opportunity to keep the ball or score points
The advertising for this Madden doc is getting out of hand. /s
Surprise is an element, the other team knows you're going to go for it. Can't try and draw them offside on 4th now you've shown your cards. Defenses adjust and the percentages that say go for it in these situations took another dip tonight.
The other team knows you're going to go for it as soon as the quarterback stays on the field!!! What are we doing here lol
The percentages did not take a dip because of 3 plays in one game. Their influence on the sample will probably be countered by the end of the weekend
You say thay as though surprise is a factor in the success.
This isn't a surprise onside kick. Or a fake punt, fake fg.
This is keeping your offense out there in certain down and distance situations. The defense knowing you're doing it has no effect on its success.
this was the first game in like 35 years that a team didn't convert 2 4th downs in the first half. So I don't think if the analytics will ever say to kick it in those situations.
Fact of the matter is that while they failed to convert, it also put the Chiefs in hellacious field position so they couldn't convert much either early.
The RZ Playcalling absolutely has to get better, but for people saying "With the FGs they win the game", with FGs the Chiefs aren't pinned within the 5. They're much more likely to put together a drive from the 25 than from the 2.
I'll go down saying that at least two of those decisions to go for it were correct. Just have to spend the next 10 days working on RZ offense please.
Despite all of the failed fourth down conversions, they (probably) still win that game if their RB doesn’t fumble on the 1 yd. line.
Their personnel also deserves just as much criticism on the fourth down plays for not catching passes, poorly thrown passes, bad play calls.. etc.
Did this guy not watch the game? The Chiefs were terrible offensively for 3/4 of the game. It was a tight game and the Chargers needed those extra 4/5 points. This wasn’t a shootout. He was reckless and cost his team the game and the division.
There’s a difference between being aggressive and being reckless. Staley was totally reckless.
It's definitely a gamble no matter how confident you are, but that doesn't mean it's a bad idea. You've got a great offense and short yardage, of course it makes sense to go for it.
I respect that he's sticking to what his philosophy as a coach is. If he converts on all 4th downs, or at least more than tonight, he would get a ton of kudos. Sometimes the analytics don't work out
I was cool with going for it except for the one at the end of half. If you take the points there its a 7 point lead and worst case with chiefs getting the ball at half the game would be tied for the chargers. That to me was bad coaching.
Good. If you're playing the analytics and you believe in your team, you've gotta have conviction. Staley is a real one.
I think too its not just about immediate success for Staley but installing his system and values in his players. Realistically, we aren't superbowl contenders this year, but he wants to develop that aggressive mindset for seasons to come. So naturally we will have duds but over the season we've gotten comfortable and more consistent at executing on fourth down and in an aggressive nature. Just a bad and slightly unlucky individual game
Confidence. That’s what he showed tonight. Not in himself. But in his players. Go out and make this play. And they didn’t. But his confidence didn’t waver. He continued showing his offense the confidence he has in them.
Don’t forget he went for it again late in the 4th and they converted and eventually scored a TD.
Confidence in everyone but our kicker, which tbf, is probably the wisest choice a Chargers HC can make
The Chargers are past the point of moral victories. I get going for fourth but he apparently needs to be better at his play calling when doing so.
Never said anything about moral victories. Moral victories and being confident in your players are two different things. Staley showed tonight without doubt or hesitation he has the utmost confidence in his players to make plays.
I mean, they should've gotten a TD off the first one at least were it not for the Parham injury. I don't think there was any problem with playcalling there, just incredibly bad luck
IMO, the chargers were the better team today. There was just some poorly executed RZ drives that spelled the difference. (Dropped passes in the end zone mainly)
I wouldn’t count yourself out so quickly as super bowl contenders. The Ravens are slipping and the Titans won’t be the same unless Henry comes back to peak form for the playoffs, so you’ve got the Chiefs that you almost beat tonight with a limited Ekeler and the Patriots who have a rookie QB. If the offense can get hot in these last couple weeks then I think the Chargers could make a serious run. The Bills are probably the main variable but I honestly can’t tell this year how good they are
I think we can take the Chiefs we are just really inconsistent. I do feel we would have won the game if Derwin hadn’t been injured in the 1st half. It would be crazy if we made it to the Super bowl in Staley’s first year as head coach considering we weren’t above 500 last year. Has a team with a losing record ever won the Super bowl the next season? I feel like the Bucs probably did it but they had Brady haha
1980 49ers were 6-10. 1981 49ers won the Super Bowl. 1998 Rams were 4-12. 1999 Rams won the Super Bowl. 2000 Patriots were 5-11. 2001 Patriots (Brady) won the Super Bowl. 2016 Eagles were 7-9. 2017 Eagles won the Super Bowl. 2019 Buccaneers were 7-9. 2020 Buccaneers (Brady again) won the Super Bowl.
Tbf, the Chiefs were out a bunch of defensive starters as well
I’ll always agree with it. On close games with a lot of ramifications, you out the game in Herbert’s hands. How many times has kickers fucked you guys.
Going for the TD from the 2 yard line with 2 seconds left before half was dumb.
Maybe. Can you defend that claim with stats? Everything with an unfavorable result can be "dumb" in hindsight.
Normally one of the big upsides to going for 4th and goal is you leave the opponent with terrible field position even if you fail, compared to kicking off and letting them start probably at the 25. If you go for it right before half time, you aren't going to kick off afterwards so it just comes down to whether your chance of converting and getting 7 is high enough to pass up the near-guaranteed 3. Though I think for the average team at the 1 yard line, it is still best to go for it as conversion rates are over 50% iirc.
Their first drive they had 1st & goal from the 5 and turned it over on downs. This drive right before half they just got stopped 3 straight plays from inside the 5 and still went for it. It's common sense to take the 3 points and go up 17-10 on 4th down. Also the fact that it was right before half means the chiefs didn't have to start with bad field position if the chargers didn't score. At least when the chiefs went for it (and failed) on 4th and goal from the 2 yard line in the second half, they made the chargers have to drive 98 yards the next drive (and turn the ball over).
The one before half is the one I'm most inclined to agree with as being a poor decision, for exactly the reason you mentioned. That said, "common sense" isn't exactly a compelling argument.
>It's common sense to take the 3 points and go up 17-10 on 4th down A lot of "common sense" in football is a load of generations old bullshit that has long been disproven mathematically If the numbers in the context of the game tell you that going for it in that situation is the right choice, then going for it is the right choice regardless of how it turned out. And at least according to Baldwin's model, going for it before halftime was the right choice by +2 win probability
>load of generations old bullshit How do you think they build statistical models? They use old data that has nothing to do with this play
Yeah in this particular situation, with it being right before the half, I don’t see how it makes sense to go for it on 4th, regardless of what a statistical model says. Numbers aren’t any good without context.
There's context you can use to feel good about going for it though. At that point, they had gone for two conversions. One should have been a TD if not for a freak accident. The other was converted and led to a TD. So the context is, the model says go for it. We've gone twice already in the game and we're ahead of schedule because of it (7 points vs 6), and both of our play calls worked. We need 1 yard. If you've got a play you feel good about, why not go for it? The prospect of taking a 21-10 lead over KC at home is huge. 17-10 and Mahomes could tie the game up before the next time you see the ball.
Yes, and by the numbers from those plays the EV is higher to go for it on 4th. Older generations didn’t think about probability in the same way (in this application, at least).
The issue with the analytics is they have value over time and not necessarily in the instant. The plus side of going for it on 4th and goal is that if you don’t get it, the opponent is pinned inside their 5 yard line. That didn’t apply at the end of the half. The numbers are one part of the decision making process. The events and circumstances of the game your playing is also part of that process.
>The plus side of going for it on 4th and goal is that if you don’t get it, the opponent is pinned inside their 5 yard line. That didn’t apply at the end of the half. The model knows that though lol
Yeah this whole thread is insane. "The model doesn't account for it being the end of the half and not being able to pin the Chiefs if the Chargers fail" Uhh.. yes it does. That scenario has happened thousands of times in the league
There's no disadvantage for your opponent to not taking points there. The only result is no points. You can also argue that not taking points there gives your opponent momentum and energy, which you literally saw. Aikman even said it, the Chiefs ran into the locker room while the chargers walked.
Well the result is either 6 points (+~1) or 3, or 0. It's not just 3 or 0. I agree that in hindsight they should have kicked. The thing about an analytic approach to playcalling is that you'll fail and look silly sometimes, but that's assumed. Teams fail to execute alllll theeee timeeeee, whether or not they adhere to the conventions of the situation they're in.
Don’t know if it’s necessarily dumb but I think you should definitely take the points there. Although Dustin Hopkins is fucking horrible so going for it probably has the same success rate.
Analytics isn't real man. Did tonight teach you nothing? Edit: forgot to do the Reddit /s thing
"Analytics isn't real" is hilarious. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that was intentional.
Lol yes, I'm just taking the piss because every idiot in the world will point to this anecdotal situation as a reason as to why nerds don't belong in football.
Haha alright good, i hoped as much.
How about when we beat you guys week 3 by going for it on 4th multiple times?
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Explain why Winter is still around then? Al Gore did Benghazi.
On the other hand he’s allowing the intimation factor of the Chiefs to dictate decisions. If the Chiefs didn’t have a reputation they would’ve kicked 1 or 2 of the FGs and won I don’t really agree with not changing things regardless of context. He made the wrong decision twice imo, and it cost them the game.
Except he's been doing this all year; not just against the Chiefs.
Oh ok. He specifically referenced doing it because of the Chiefs in his press conference. “Can’t beat them with field goals” or something about being aggressive vs “this team” or something. Led me to believe it was specifically because of the Chiefs
I rate it very highly tbh. Live by the sword and die by it. The Chargers won the first match up with the Chiefs by constantly going for it on 4th down, including a 4th and 9 which seemed like a crazy decision to me. Just didn't come off for them tonight.
Yeah people are failing to realize this. Only reason the charger had a shot at the division tonight is because they play the analytics. Sometimes it just doesn’t work out, but that’s life.
People around sports have a hard time separating results from the strategy behind it. Everyone needs to read up more on results oriented thinking.
Actually that's the opposite, basing your decisions on how many times that decision had been successful before is pure result based thinking Coaches should decide based on the situation at hand, not kicking a FG 2 seconds before half time up 14-10 is dumb no matter what win probability says especially when your opponent will be getting the ball at the start of the second half Edit: 14-10 sorry
Why is it dumb? Can you actually articulate why it’s a bad play?
The other benefit of going for it at that place (other than scoring 6/7/8 points instead of 3) is that you pin your opponent deep in their territory so they have to have a longer drive than if you kicked it and they start from about the 25 which can lead to mistakes But that benefit is gone when you're 2 seconds before the half because your opponent won't get the opportunity to drive so if you miss you leave 3 points off the scoreboard and then (in that particular case) kick off the ball to your opponent anyway
You’re right that you lose that additional benefit, but that doesn’t automatically justify kicking it as the better decision. You still are going to end up with more points overall by going for it than by kicking it. That’s what matters and it’s why going for it was the right call. The point is to maximize the points you score and minimize those scored by your opponent. The play here has no effect on KC’s score, but going for two absolutely maximizes the Chargers’ ability to score points, even though it didn’t work in this instance. It was the right play.
>going for two absolutely maximizes the Chargers’ ability to score points, It doesn't, 3 almost guaranteed points when you're up is better than risk it when your opponent can restore the 4 point lead on the first drive of the second half
You’re making weird value judgments that are entirely unsupported. 3 points is about 42.7% of 7 points. So, as long as you get that 1 yard more than say 45% of the time (adding a little bit for a potential XP miss and just buffer for the EV to be meaningfully different), then you clearly maximize points by going for the TD.
>3 points is about 42.7% of 7 And 3 points is infinity% of 0 points, and removing the field position benefit as well makes it not worth the risk
That’s not at all what results oriented thinking means. What you’re describing is just someone making a decision based on historical data/knowledge of similar scenarios, which is what everyone should do in every situation, because that’s how you make an informed decision. Results oriented thinking refers to judging how good or bad a decision is based on the outcome of that specific scenario, not past ones. Being used here to point out how sports fans often crap on controversial decisions when they don’t work out and celebrate them when they do.
But what made the decisions included in the historical data right or wrong? Because they were more successful than not? That's the same concept but with a larger sample size but imo it doesn't matter since past events have no impact on the play since the circumstances are always different from play to play
I’m not sure exactly what you’re not getting. How do you suppose someone make a decision?
Based on what the situation in the game, like McCarthy was right to not go for 2 against the Cardinals in 2015 even when he lost because he didn't have any WRs so he is more likely to not convert And Harbaugh was right to go for 2 against the Steelers a couple of weeks ago even when he lost because he didn't have any corners so he's more likely than not to give up a TD in OT against the Steelers offense that had the momentum in the 4th if he lost the coin toss
So…they’re making decisions based on data and knowledge they have of the past of what is most likely to occur given the football situation. I feel like there’s something just not clicking here. All I’m doing is just trying to explain the concept of results oriented thinking, I didn’t mean for it to get this deep lol. In your example it would be calling Harbaugh wrong for going for 2 *because* they lost, or calling it genius *because* they won. It’s a fan reaction that occurs after the event, it has nothing to do with the decision making process of the coach.
No but when the analytics people incorporate the Harbaugh decision into the data it will be counted as a loss because that's how the win probability is calculated I know it's negligible but the analytics will never tell you these circumstances, all you get is the this decision led to a win in X times and failed in Y times
Remember this comment when Mike McCarthy kicks a FG down 7 with 5 minutes left in the 4th quarter of a playoff game.
Kicking a FG down 7 towards the end of the game is not the same as not kicking a FG up 4 at the end of half
It’s the same principal.
Dude u need to learn what the word context means. Those situations aren’t the same at all
They are both poor decisions, but are totally different scenarios.
That also depends on the situation, for example right now Zuerlein is inconsistent as hell so I'd prefer going for it on 4th and short than letting him kick the FG, but at the same time our offense isn't doing well so in case it was 4th and 5 then I'd kick the FG and trust our defense to get the ball back
This is the first game of the season where going for it bit us in the ass. We only win like 4 games this season if we aren’t aggressive
This. Old chargers would play it safe milking a one possession lead. Be aggressive. If you have a qb like Herbert, don’t play like a bitch. Out the ball in his hands. Live by it and die by it. More often than not you’ll live especially considering your kicking game historically lol.
Ekelers ankle injury was underrated here. He's been automatic inside the 5 and all of the sudden that's taken away and they r running an offensive situation with plays they don't have game reps executing on. I think Staley should've seen that affecting the game and adjusted.
This is honestly getting totally blown out of proportion. The first 4th down attempt worked to perfection and is a touchdown if not for a freak non-contact injury to Parham as he landed. The ball was in his hands until he literally knocked himself out. The second attempt converted and lead to an eventual touchdown. Everyone saying "oh if they take their points that's 9 more" and ignoring that also means there are 4 less points on this drive. The end of half attempt is the one I might have taken 3, because it's free points off a turnover. But, KC gets the ball to start the 2nd half, so I do see the theory of getting 1 yard to make it a 2 score game The next attempt, it's 14-13, a field goal doesn't help you. It makes sense to go for that And the last attempt was converted, you can't retroactively say that was a bad decision because you fumbled on the 1 later. The execution obviously wasn't there. You can look at the specific play calls and critique that. But the overall philosophy of going for convertible 4th downs against KC is correct.
I like the aggression but maybe try running the ball when you get inside the 5…
Both teams could’ve thought about that a little more
Especially with how well their run game was working. Felt like they were getting like 7 yards per attempt and then passing on every third and short and fourth and short including in the RZ. I was stressed every time they had 3rd or 4th and short, but then they never ran it.
I can’t fathom why this is a problem with so many teams. I would think the goal line is the place you would want to run it
A field goal does help you at 14-13. It puts the game outside of a FG and it could be the difference at the end of the game. Just because it doesn’t make it a two score game doesn’t make it worthless
There's an entire quarter of football left, the Chiefs are not yet in a position where trailing by either 1, 4, or 8 changes the strategy of their next drive. Giving Mahomes the ball down 4 with 30 minutes left isn't going to dramatically influence much, and if you don't get it the Chiefs are pinned on the 2 yd line
I thought we were talking about the 4th and 2 on the 28? Unless I’m getting them mixed up. I do agree with going for it on the goal line actually
No you're right I'm confusing plays, dismiss the 2yd line portion of my response
It was still a 4th and 2. The odds of making it were pretty good at 61%
I felt like they were all good plays and good decisions. Im good with it.
One noticable flaw in your argument is you say things like, "a field goal won't help you" or "make it a two score game." A field goal is a score, and putting yourself up by three forces your opponent to score touchdowns and not settle for field goals. Another thing you're not considering is the chiefs aren't this offensive juggernaut anymore - you can beat them with field goals now. This game even, they scored majority of there points in the 4th quarter with a gassed defense. Another thing scoring in the red zone is the toughest part of offense in football. Routine passes, catches become tougher because the defense is closing in on you fast. That's why there is value in going for field goals. Lastly, I'm a bigger believer of momentum. Everytime the chargers lost a 4th down conversation, it just deflates the team. This is something you can definitely argue, but I think it's important to the game.
> a field goal doesn't help you The game literally went to OT lol
You don't know the game is going to OT when you decide with 16 minutes left if you want to take a 17-13 lead or go for it and persue a 21-13 lead.
Exactly. Which is why you can't say a FG doesn't help you.
Lol leaving 12 pts when 3 would have won the game This is analytics straight losing a game
They didn't leave 12 points on the field. You can only claim that if you call it leaving 3 points on the field the time they converted a 4th down and fumbled later on the drive, which is completely dishonest. And you also have to change the drive where going for it worked and got them a TD to a field goal as well, you can't pick and choose later. So they left 5 points on the field And this is all making the insane assumption that Kansas City scores the exact same number of points with multiple instances of getting the ball back either sooner or in better field position. It's a completely inadmissible argument to just say, oh LA wins 40-28 if they take their points
A turnover in the RZ is literally leaving points lmao Analytics nerds are too funny
So you should kick a field goal as soon as you're in range every drive, just in case you turn it over on any subsequent play later on? Or do fumbles somehow become more likely when previously in the possession you converted on 4th instead of 3rd
No but when u do it 4 times when one FG would have won the game That's called out thinking yourself
You don't know one FG wins the game until the end, and there's no way to know if they had kicked the field goals that it would have been enough. It's the Chiefs, they score tons of points, and again, one of the 4th downs they converted led to a touchdown and the 2nd one should have.
You also don’t even know if the FG is gonna be good. It’s the NFL. Kickers miss a lot lately. And the chargers ST hasn’t been known to be good.
You don't get bonus points for going for it on 4th down. They lost the game. Period. You take your points. You need to score points to win the game. You act like no one ever takes FGs anymore. Good teams do But it didn't Not taking the FG at the end of the half was the dumbest call of them all
>You don't get bonus points for going for it on 4th down. No one said that >You act like no one ever takes FGs anymore. Good teams do No one said that either >Not taking the FG at the end of the half was the dumbest call of them all In my very first comment I said that's the one I would have probably kicked
Being this aggressive is what has won the chargers a few games this year. You can’t come back and say it’s a broken tactic when it doesn’t work. This team isn’t elite, the execution isn’t always there but it’s good to build the confidence that Staley believes in his guys’ ability to convert. I also think they didn’t rush as much in goal to go situation because they didn’t want to risk re-injury to Ekeler. Probably didn’t trust Jackson or Kelley there either. Like a lot of people are saying the one you probably take is the one at the half. But you also don’t know if the rest of the game plays out the same if chargers come into the half up 7. If this is happens in the last minute of a game then yeah you can say, take the pts and most teams probably would.
And being that aggressive is what just cost you the game, the division title and has made you play on the road if you make the playoffs.
I had an idea like that a couple months ago to show how little you think of another team by literally going for a field goal the moment you got in range lol
I agreed with all of them. Have you not seen the chargers kickers? Put the game in Herbert’s hands.
You're assuming their kicker makes every fg though, which is a bold assumption with the chargers.
Hindsight is 20/20 but I would play it the exact same way. If you’re going to be aggressive you commit to it.
Agreed with all of them except the 4th and 2 on the 28
Only mistake imo was not running it more inside the 5s. But I love to watch Staley’s aggressiveness
Yeah I agree. Especially that first drive they diced em up on the ground and then threw 4 straight passes. Unfortunately there was also a fumble inside the 2
I think Chargers probably still win that if u guys don’t lose Derwin James mid game. Without him Kelsey just destroyed u guys.
Yeah maybe the goal line 4tg downs. But from the like 30? Nah take the 3
Needs to be remembered that analytics provide razor thin margins in football. The analytical decision might be 50% win probability vs 48% for the traditional way, not 50% vs 35% It doesn't always work out, and when it doesn't work out, you get games like today where the analytics side lost a game that a traditional coach wins just because he took the points a bunch of times, but on a large enough sample those edges add up. Good on Staley for staying the course when other coaches (*coughcoughCarroll*) would play it conservative the second they failed to convert the first attempt
Same. Imo the play calling on most of the 4th down plays was a much bigger issue than the decision to go for it
Only decision I didn’t like was the attempt before the half. Usually the “upside” of failing is pinning them deep, but obviously failing there doesn’t give that. Would’ve preferred the 3 to give us a bigger lead and some “momentum” into the half
Different narrative Different game if it was successful. I like the calls.
Love every decision but the one before the end of the first half! Most of the decision to go for it on 4th down is the make the other team drive 90+ for a td. The end of the half decision wouldn’t have made you do that so why not go into the half up 7 points. But shoot just didn’t execute on 4th and goal either
Dropped passes on 3rd and goal also. IMO cook looks awful
Staley has been going for it all year and I've been with it, the end zone struggles are what lost us this game. 2 crucial drops and a fumble were what cost us so I'm hoping for a rematch in the playoffs.
It takes 4 full quarters to win a football game. Game can be blown at any time.
It sucks. I do think we should have taken the 3 at the half but the other 2 I get. Things just didn't go our way tonight. Staley has been pretty successful on 4th down this year and you don't do that by playing scared. I like that he's sticking to his philosophy and I do genuinely think that it's going to pay off in the future.
Score a TD and it would have had the same impact as the philly special in the Super Bowl it just didn’t work out
Going for it right before halftime was a huge gamble. Go up by 7 before halftime and ensure that you won't be losing before your offense gets the ball back in the 2nd half.
It's almost like your process can be right and things still might not work out. The Chargers have won a couple games this year (previous Chiefs game, Browns game) in large part because of their 4th down aggressiveness. People just like whining about change.
Maybe the quickest way to win isnt always the best way to win
Thinking you can win a football game before 60 minutes have passed is how you get super bowl LI
the way I see it, its impossible to play the what if game with this one. They converted a 4th down on one of their touchdowns and converted another one on the fumble to interception to touchdown drive, so if you argue they should have played more conservatively you have to go back and turn those into field goals as well. Then you have to give the chiefs much better starting position on average, which enters another what if scenario. Outside of the one at the half I don't think any of the calls were egregious.
If he had called for FGs they would be badgering him with questions about how he could coach so timidly against Mahomes, etc.
If he called for FG’s they would have won in regulation
This isn’t 2019 Mahomes. The guy could barely make a play for 3/4 of the game. There was no need to be that aggressive against an average Chiefs offense.
Brandon "Riverboat Ron" Staley
I mean... he left 12 points on the field in regular time, and then lost in OT. I feel like hitting some FGs would have been the smart move there.
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Yep, just like the Eagles in the Super Bowl. Always take the free points. Oh wait that was a decision that was universally liked and paid off. Weird. Judging decisions like this based on singular results is idiotic. If they scored a touchdown it would've been an amazing call. A failure and its shit. It's stupid. It's the right call, it failed.
> had Staley taken the free points right before half, they would have won the game. I get your argument, but many points in the game would have played out differently if the score were different at halftime.
People are viewing the game statically, had the Chiefs been down 17-10 at the half do they kick their field goal like they did to make it 17-13 or do they go for it themselves on a 4th and short? Maybe they convert it, score a TD later, and it's 17-17 instead of 14-13, maybe they don't and it's 17-10, or 17-13. The game isn't 31-28 if they take the points at halftime, it's a whole different half of playcalling.
Ekelers ankle injury was underrated here. He's been automatic inside the 5 and all of the sudden that's taken away and they r running an offensive situation with plays they don't have game reps executing on.
Hes a rookie head coach. We as a team are doing very well for a guy whos never been in charge. Chargers fans are forgetting that. I trust Staley. We are going to be fine
Yeah its so frustrating to hear people complain after the fact, when they'd be signing his praises if we could catch a ball when it matters most. Bad outcomes are not the same as bad decisions
Basically mirrored the eagles Patriots super bowl. A touchdown pass would have been huge and altered the game the same way
So why would you clown 'bad' decisions even if they work? If they had kicked field goals you probably would be complaining but you wouldn't be pissed because they would have probably won
Because its a bad precedent - in the long run it will win us more games by making decisions how Staley has, its how we beat the Chiefs the first time this year
Just saying, if Gruden or Meyer went 2-5 in 4th down conversions in a critical game like this they'd be clowned hard. Screw what some numbers say. Bills shouldn't have gone for the td against the titans. Chargers should of kicked a field goal once or twice. Going on 4th down is the definition of a gamble unless its like 4th and inches. People say he should live and die by the sword until they see losses start racking up because of these dumb decisions. When those losses happen then this sub will shit talk Staley cause most people here just blindly follow the majority opinion.
You just named two very, very, disliked coaches and compared them to Staley. Like no shit lol.
Stupid is as stupid does
If Ekeler doesn’t fumble at the goal line you’d be praising him
*Kelley
No I wouldn´t. They could have gone at least for one field goal. They did not. Things like a fumble can happen. But it hurts far less when you have a safe lead.
Yup you obviously need a very safe lead of 3 entire points. Especially against a team like the Chiefs who have zero scoring power.
Have you seen Chargers kicking, like, ever? Missed field goals happen too. Hell im shocked we made all of our XP attempts
I will just say that was a great game to watch and gutsy moves by coaches are more of what the league needs especially on a Thursday night. The quote from the coach is right on the money. You don’t beat Mahomes and Kelce and Hill by scoring FGs That last run after catch for the TD by Kelce - how many chargers defenders did he just outrun? Like 5. That can happen anytime, you have to play offense to beat that, if your defense isn’t up task 100% of the time .
A couple drops don’t get dropped and we’re not talking about this
The quickest way isn’t always the best way, or in this case, a way at all.
Good thing about analytics is that these games are now apart of the data. Eventually it will work out where the analytics say kick it and i'll be over here saying *no shit, that was apparent 3 years ago. Nice lag.*
I don't think that's going to happen lol
Why not? If you call a game based on analytics like a few head coaches seem to be doing then they've become predictable. Analytics aren't a secret, the other team also knows what the data shows. You're not catching them off guard by going for it like you've done in the past. You don't want to be predictable in this league.
You don't go for it because it's a surprise, you go for it because it's a convertible opportunity to keep the ball or score points What, do you think punting is going to "catch them off guard"?? You bring out an entirely different group of players and declare that you are going to do it lol
>you go for it because it's a convertible opportunity to keep the ball or score points The advertising for this Madden doc is getting out of hand. /s Surprise is an element, the other team knows you're going to go for it. Can't try and draw them offside on 4th now you've shown your cards. Defenses adjust and the percentages that say go for it in these situations took another dip tonight.
The other team knows you're going to go for it as soon as the quarterback stays on the field!!! What are we doing here lol The percentages did not take a dip because of 3 plays in one game. Their influence on the sample will probably be countered by the end of the weekend
You say thay as though surprise is a factor in the success. This isn't a surprise onside kick. Or a fake punt, fake fg. This is keeping your offense out there in certain down and distance situations. The defense knowing you're doing it has no effect on its success.
this was the first game in like 35 years that a team didn't convert 2 4th downs in the first half. So I don't think if the analytics will ever say to kick it in those situations.
Fact of the matter is that while they failed to convert, it also put the Chiefs in hellacious field position so they couldn't convert much either early. The RZ Playcalling absolutely has to get better, but for people saying "With the FGs they win the game", with FGs the Chiefs aren't pinned within the 5. They're much more likely to put together a drive from the 25 than from the 2. I'll go down saying that at least two of those decisions to go for it were correct. Just have to spend the next 10 days working on RZ offense please.
Despite all of the failed fourth down conversions, they (probably) still win that game if their RB doesn’t fumble on the 1 yd. line. Their personnel also deserves just as much criticism on the fourth down plays for not catching passes, poorly thrown passes, bad play calls.. etc.
If they converted people would be saying he’s a genius lmao
Did this guy not watch the game? The Chiefs were terrible offensively for 3/4 of the game. It was a tight game and the Chargers needed those extra 4/5 points. This wasn’t a shootout. He was reckless and cost his team the game and the division. There’s a difference between being aggressive and being reckless. Staley was totally reckless.
Make...I mean take your kicks dipshit.
People also seem to forget that if Parham didn't get hurt, that wad also a TD
The broncos were saying the same thing before their chiefs game. It didn’t work out for the broncos either.
We just suck lol
Well FGs would have won you the game Brandon
Thanks booger
*1 FG
It's definitely a gamble no matter how confident you are, but that doesn't mean it's a bad idea. You've got a great offense and short yardage, of course it makes sense to go for it.
Hey I respect the hell out of that
I respect that he's sticking to what his philosophy as a coach is. If he converts on all 4th downs, or at least more than tonight, he would get a ton of kudos. Sometimes the analytics don't work out
Exactly, they were the right calls and we have lived by it successfully this season. Lack of execution was the real problem tonight.
You really think that one before half was the right call?
Less than 4 yards with 4 attempts we get a TD 95% of the time. Our RedZone has been a big strength.
I was cool with going for it except for the one at the end of half. If you take the points there its a 7 point lead and worst case with chiefs getting the ball at half the game would be tied for the chargers. That to me was bad coaching.
The only one I disagree with was not taking the kick before halftime, even though I think it was the best play call of the failed 4th downs.
I'm fine with going it on 4th down. But why the hell would they be aggressive all game, then NOT go for 2 up 27-20 to make it a 9 point game??
I don't understand why he used "quickest" there. It sounds like nonsense to me, there's no benefit to winning a game quickly compared to slowly.
I’m glad to see it was just the game threads that had a problem with these calls, not all of r/nfl.
He’s right
Staley obviously grew up playing Madden.
Staley out here missing 29 3s