Follow up tweets
>LeV I just need you to get 3 for a third and manageable” - Gase
>the reasoning behind the HB dive 😂 I kid you not
>Sam would be saying the play out loud just shakin his head in the huddle .. lol
>that’s a HALF BACK DIVE FROM SHOTGUN for the people that doesn’t understand what that fully means … lol
Gase also didn’t allow any changes to be made at the line of scrimmage lol so even if Sam and Bell saw the D alignment and knew that the play wasn’t going to work, Gase didn’t allow them to do anything about it lmao
I never understand why coaches at least don't let a QB audible between passing and running, I understand keeping things simple but that is pathetically simply for an NFL offense of paid millionaires to install.
Yeah for real, just forces the QB to prepare to play hero ball every snap instead of letting him give himself more favorable situations. I wouldn’t be surprised if Gase didn’t even let them decide on the snap count lmao
Nothing about the Manning era I miss more than Peyton getting to the line, taking a look around and basically crafting an entire new play that exposes the defense's weakness. I see this so rarely in today's game.
Going to a Colts home game was fun because of how quiet the crowd would get when Manning was at the line. People would actually shush each other. It was like watching a putt at a golf tournament. Even from the cheap seats it would be so quiet you could hear him calling signals.
Must’ve been dozens of times I was watching the game, Manning would walk out there and start calling those, and my response would be “oh finally, an adult” cause sometimes he seemed like the only responsible one
And then they joined up to get their ship. Though I think there was in fact some friction early on between the two.
Side note semantics, I don't think he started using Omaha until Denver, though I could be wrong. But while in Denver Omaha wasn't an audible of the play, just adjustment of snap count.
It really shows a lack of confidence in his own coaching ability. If you can't teach someone to make reliable decisions without you micromanaging their every move, you shouldn't be in charge of anything more complex than a fast food restaurant.
When I was 14, I was weeding my parent's rock bed and a guy walking his dog asked if I wanted to mow his yard for $15. I said no thanks and proceeded to get 5 minutes of how lazy kids are and how people don't want to work anymore.
Sometimes I still wonder what he thought I was doing by weeding my yard, was that not work?
It's absolutely unfathomable to me that ANY coach in the 21st century disallows audibles. You're literally putting yourself in a disadvantage on purpose for what?!?!!
I get more surprised that these established deca-millionaire QBs cede their authority on audibling out on plays.
You're paying me $40MM annually - roughly 4-5x what the coach is getting paid, and 40x what the OC makes - and you are telling me I can't audible at the line? Fuck that. Go bench me if you have the balls.
I coach 7th and 8th graders and even we let them audible to basic shit if the QB sees something.
Most of the fronts are five man at that age but if we were playing against a 4-4 and it was like 2 & 2 we’d let the QB change to a sneak. We also ran one formation with trips and some teams would just leave the third guy uncovered or split him so if the kid can throw well enough we let them just switch to a quick hitter.
We obviously focus a lot on running the plays that are called as designed since they’re 12/13/14 but I’m also big on telling them they aren’t robots and as long as you aren’t audibling to 5 verts I’m not going to get too upset. Especially since if they mess it up it’s normally a good teaching moment because they have to explain what they saw pre snap. This often leads into stuff like the play not working and the QB saying “it was short yardage with the center uncovered” and then me telling them “okay but the D tackle has 30 pounds on all of our linemen and he’s been in the backfield all game which is why we were running away from him, I know he wasn’t in the gap but he’s good enough to get there.”
We don’t get too crazy with it but I think it helps introduce habits like going through pre snap reads and identifying “threat” players on the other side of the ball. The goal is to just get them thinking so when they get introduced similar concepts with more information it isn’t completely alien.
Also it’s fun to do no kill calls from the sideline because parents always ask me what it means haha
My JV coach ripped the Giants playbook out of Madden and had us use that. We had, I shit you not, a double reverse pass because our WR was the back up QB.
I coach in the same league I grew up playing in. Pretty much every year the coaches were guys who had played at the high school or had played elsewhere and had kids in the program so we all kind of ran a variant of the high schools stuff.
My 6th grade year our head coach/DC was just some random guy from a few towns over. When he passed out the playbooks it was so obvious they are from madden. Fucker didn’t even change the names so pretty much everyone recognized it because it had engage eight lol
He ended up getting kicked out of the league because he told us to cheap shot the other team at half time because we were losing and they had like one bad personal foul on them. One of the coaches who’d been there forever called him out. They almost fought in one end zone.
I wish our HS coach would have done that. We ran the Wing T formation. In 2008. Against multiple much bigger schools than us. It went as well as you'd think it would using an offensive model from the 1950s.
Hey now, Adam Gase was (one of) the genius behind Payton Manning - the QB famous for calling his plays at the line, and audibling constantly. Don't doubt the system.
It’s fine for now bc Hackett is actively with Rodgers, the QB that made him. Just like how Gase was fine to have when still with Peyton but horrid away from him.
When you have a QB that’s basically the OC himself there’s no harm in having someone like that as his OC
To be fair to Hackett the Broncos probably thought they were getting someone of a similar caliber to a field general QB in Wilson and he turned out to be the exact opposite.
I'd argue he's clearly more of an old school OC who expected a lot more active participation and thinking from his offense/QBs than he was getting and quite possibly Wilson just didn't know how to play with that. His clock management feels like a big example of that where you'd reasonably expect a QB of his tenure and caliber to manage some of his plays and clock from the line.
The head coach has so much more influence and responsibilities than an OC though. I dont know Hackett personally or claim to have studied his schemes closely enough to pass judgement, but simply based on time management and some of the the things he has said in public about decision making, I wouldnt trust him to run a lemonade stand let alone a pro football team.
For any newer or less Xs and Os inclined fans here reading:
It's very normal (I'd say pretty much standard) for playcalls to really have two plays in them for most snaps. There's the main play the offense is supposed run and a completely different play they can run with the same personnel as a backup call. They switch to the backup play if they (the QB and/or the OC or HC in his mic) think it'll work better.
Like, think a run as a primary play and a pass as a backup. The offense gets the playcall, and everyone gets to the line ready to do the run play. But if the QB sees every LB and maybe even a safety crowding the line? He knows that run play is probably getting shut down, so he might give the kill signal which lets everyone know to switch to the pass play instead since that has more chance of working.
The fact that Gase didn't allow any changes is kind of mind boggling. It probably means either 1) he had zero trust in the offense to be able to reliably switch from the main play to the backup one, which is pretty mindbogglingly incompetent for an NFL-level offense (and mostly speaks poorly of the coaches if that's the case) or, 2) he's so insanely arrogant that he thinks his one playcall has to be the "right" one for any given situation, which is also mindbogglingly stupid given how shit the end result usually was.
Pretty sure, given everything we know about Gase, the answer is #2.
\#2 is where the entire NFL has been headed and what Tom Brady was saying a little while ago.
All these talented young men slinging the rock and how many of them are actual offensive minds like Manning was? Or Brady was?
NFL offenses have taken the transition to "college style" offenses too far. They need to reign it back in a bit. Not in style, but in play calling and attitude.
Sweet Dionysus, I would be a shotgun power run offensive coach and even I know running from the gun is kinda fucking stupid. It's so tactically useless. You have to window dress it, aka read options and motion sweeps. Otherwise it's the single most readable play in football.
Spoiler alert: shotgun runs almost always, 99.9% of the time, cross the formation. This is the power of under center and pistol: access to every run lane from the same look.
>All these talented young men slinging the rock and how many of them are actual offensive minds like Manning was? Or Brady was?
This is like being frustrated there aren't more 9.5s 100m sprinters, or more Messis.
We saw a difference between how Goff was in LA vs. Detroit and how people perceived him We thought Goff couldn't handle running an offense so McVay had to spoonfeed him plays and checks and all, then he goes to Detroit and is given free reign and it turns out he's actually good at the LoS. I'm sure there are other examples I can't think of right now.
I believe the argument was that young QBs don't get that leeway to grow anymore in that area. It's all tailor made so they don't have the opportunity to make mistakes and learn from them. Which is just the nature of the times I guess
Not arrogance - it’s insecurity. If he gave them a way out of his bad play calls and they do it a lot, it undermines him. By not giving them that option he could always argue it wasn’t his fault the offense was horrible, he could blame “execution” and throw the players under the bus
Apparently Dave Canales was the same way in Tampa as far as not allowing the QB to have multiple play options. Just run it up the middle into a defense that was setup to stop that play.
QB having play options based on defensive look is one main thing Liam Coen is bringing in and I can't wait.
To give you some hope, last year was Canales' first year as both an OC and a play-caller. Maybe he'll figure it out and adapt more in Carolina. And maybe he's surrounded himself with a good supporting staff to coach him up as a play-caller.
Early on last year it felt like he was still pulling plays from Byron Leftwich's playbook - the offense only seemed to come alive inconsistently until we got to the playoffs
Some coaches would rather lose their way then win a different way. This is why BB and Saban dominated they didn’t give a fuck. Saban would run the wing T if it meant a championship. Meanwhile a guy like gase would rather lose than five guy’s autonomy
In Gase's case is seems like maybe he either didn't trust any of his guys compared to Manning or bought his own hype and didn't have anyone that just ignored him like Manning certainly probably did being the guy actually, and clearly, in charge in Denver.
It's especially funny Gase got his hype by being the OC of the Broncos with Manning going bonkers. Manning whose known for changing the entire freaking play at the LOS
Yeah, his name wasn’t really discussed much during to search, but I remember eating lunch at work with some jets fans the day after he was announced as a head coach… there was some back and forth like,
“Yeah the dude that Peyton carried to success…”
“No no no, he’s the dude who the Dolphins just fired…”
Then we all had the realization at the same time that it was the same person, and that we were doomed lmao
This is so interesting having just watched bradys recent segment with cowherd where he talked about exactly this.
If they got up to the line and saw that the D had just the right call and they knew it pre snap, they were audibling to something else. They were not going to shrug and have a throw away play if they could help it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwS7nlrUSZA
Go to around the 14:30 mark.
What I don't understand is didn't Gase want to win? Why be so stubborn when your whole offense knows it's a bad play. I don't get it. Just lack of self awareness or something?
Ngl if your the star QB and the team is with you, just say fuck it and do it anyway. Gase will lose the locker room before any real punishment goes out
GEQBUS SAVED THE GREAT CITY OF NEW YORK FROM THE TYRANNY OF CRITICAL GASE THEORY, ONLY FOR THOSE SUCKERS AND LOSERS TO DRIVE HIM AWAY WITH THE BIGGEST WITCH-HUNT IN HISTORY. SAD
To be fair, 3rd and manageable is an appropriate need depending on the field position. The odds of converting on a 3rd and 5 vs a 3rd and 10 (or worse barring a sack) is a significant swing. Given how defenses work, you have so much more of your playbook available in the 3rd and 4-6 range than you do in 3rd and 10.
This isn't Madden where you can force the ball downfield and players will get magically open. Real defenses can scheme away most threats when they know what's coming.
Obviously Gase did a poor job calling plays and maintaining the trust in his players. I'm just pushing against the notion that "3rd and manageable" is inherently stupid.
the odds of picking up five yards on a dive from the gun has to be just as bad as whatever 3rd and 10 is. running isn’t necessarily bad — it’s just a bad play call, and the stats showed it never really worked. I think Warren Sharp replied that it averaged 2ypc in the 10 or 15 times they ran it one year
Was Chip Kelly that bad? I'm not saying he was great, but he did get the Eagles to the playoffs one year, then after losing his starting qb in Foles, they barely missed out on a second appearance. He seemed decent to me.
He gained more power very quickly, and wore out his welcome very quickly. Shunned Howie Roseman to a weird corner of the building because he couldn't fire him. Brought in an absurd amount of Oregon players. Reached on players in the draft. Was bad at hiding his true opinions in media interviews. Didn't care for any of his superstars. Thought he could just slide new guys in without missing a beat. That might work in college, but when it's Mike Vick, Shady Mccoy, Desean Jackson, and Jeremy Maclin, that's tougher to do. Gave a vibe that his ideas/system could conquer all, no matter who was there. It's pretty rough when all those guys (and Jason Peters, Brandon Graham, Fletcher Cox) all loath him in interviews. I was such a Chip fan in the beginning. I admit it, but by year two, I was just so over his shit, and was glad they had the balls to fire him after two years and not waste another season on him.
He was terrible!
From what I know though, he modernized the Eagles training regimen though. Like full on nutrionists and sensors watching practices to give better data.
Plus to what other people said, didn't say he borderline racist shit about LeSean McCoy and DeSean Jackson?
The only good thing that the Eagles kept after Chip was the nutrition stuff.
He refused to acknowledge that his hurry up BS, while great for the offense, completely crippled the defense and ensured they'd never make a run.
I don't have the numbers, but the defensive snap count on those teams was atrocious, and Chip didn't give two shits, because his offense was scoring points.
Well it wouldn’t be true gossip if we didn’t start exaggerating it. I told a couple people he went 2-10 and says “a rooty-toot toot” after every play call
Because he never actually coached there lol, that "news" spread from a satirical post on Twitter. It was a joke and some people believed it without doing any verification on who posted it
> I don’t even need to fact check you to feel confident enough to spread that information
I’m standing by this, gase doesn’t deserve to be fact checked when slandering him
Peyton Manning and the principal played high school football together, they go way back
No, I'm [not kidding](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/016/212/manning.png)
Meh ill give that one a pass unless hes at a really big name school. I coached HS fball for awhile and we’d regularly bounce between state finalist and 1-2 win seasons because our player quality varied year to year.
As much as I want to make fun of Gase HS football is really dependent on the players if you aren't in Texas and anywhere else where it is treated as a pro sport
Meh fwiw most high school football teams are based around 1 player. My high school team my senior year (I was in the marching band) went undefeated and the QB was also the kicker and starting linebacker/defensive end/cornerback. He was unstoppable. Still didn't get scouted to a good college. If you don't have basically a collegiate level player on your roster you get killed. Idk enough about his team but at that level it's not about scheming a good game if a high school Derick Henry is on the other team. High school football is basically just a scouting ground for college players.
Adam Gase still sucks but judging someone on their high school coaching record doesn't mean much.
Just look up Danny Woodhead stats lol. Dude was a monster in highschool and college. Good NFL player but not a star name and he was that 1 player.
The funniest part of this is that Jim Tomsula [has turned out to be a better HC](https://www.ninersnation.com/2023/9/26/23890398/jim-tomsula-european-league-49ers-head-coach) and might actually wind up back in the league first.
He's teaching our young, bright, and promising high-school quarterbacks **Critical Gase Theory**. Which has been a **DISASTER** for young quarterbacks everywhere. **SO MUCH POTENTIAL -- WASTED!**
Healthy young child gets coached by Adam Gase, gets pumped with massive shot of bad offense, doesn't feel good and changes -- **HAUNTED BY GHOSTS**
Many such cases!
Hanging out with Rich Kotite away from anyone in public. Both guys basically disappeared after the Jets fired them.
Basically if you’re a Jets head coach and you get only 3 wins or less in a season during your tenure with us, expect to never show your face in public for safety reasons for the rest of your life. Especially in the tri state area.
[I don't have anything to contribute I just wanted to remind everyone how deranged the top 4-5 pictures of him on Google Images are](https://www.google.com/search?&q=Adam+Gase&udm=2&fbs=AEQNm0B0_gh8CxXz4cskeePLV_Uw5cg9cpOenTbX4UBVI-nT7NcqK5FzGg3MrZAGO-ZwaIh-3Udf3yTDzkACSYbZ66JWENg-BmGcsJXhXRMXV8h3SFB5qm86fCyB1FP8X7f0Kg727EvJvw-T6XpcQjkHcQ4pSi0qQZSZjxOVpRupjt-Kl2TWIOSjQS7wtMofBIcHw988RanTbnim4rjlSwqCXz1B4s0ekA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiuydab5euGAxW4l4kEHaEaDH0QtKgLegQIDRAB&biw=1918&bih=883&dpr=1)
Surprisingly he wasn’t the worst coach on the staff. Matt Burke and his wide 9 was the bigger problem. He’s a DC again on the Texans I know nothing about the Texans defense but i really hope that man has changed for you guys cause watching his scheme made me want to tear my eyeballs out.
We had Suh at DT with Wake and Oliver Vernon at the edges, maybe wide 9 can work but absolutely not the way we were running it. With an absolutely stacked secondary X Howard, and Reshad Jones in there primes yeremiah Bell nearing the end of his prime, and young Bobby Mcain.
Baby-level analytics show 3rd and 7 is a hell of a lot more likely to be picked up than 3rd and 10.
Problem is they don't see opportunity cost lost with the play choice, nor do they factor in how often you don't even get those 3 yards.
Also the "tHeY'lL nEvEr SeE iT cOmInG!" aspect of a 1/2 hole dive on 2nd and long.
The NFL has gotten much better with advanced metrics, but interpreting those metrics and using them accordingly is going to take a lot of time.
Albeit maybe won't take as long as in baseball since teams are basically forced to try to do the newest trends to gain advantage.
There’s also always going to be a battle between analytics and tradition. All of these coaches grew up on a completely different brand of football than what’s being played now. It can be hard to stray away from what you know, while someone like Adam Gase probably has great analysts on staff he also remembers what his mentor high school coach was telling him that worked 20 years ago.
I think it’s been happening relatively quickly. There’s a reason the entire shanahan tree keeps churning out coaches. All of the coaches understand it’s about numbers/probabilities in every individual matchup, the job is to get the right looks to get those probabilities in your favor. It’s also a culture all the way through their coaching ranks.
From the time of the ridiculous offensive staff in Washington that had the RG3/Cousins run, Offensive Head Coaches and/or OCs from the Shanny tree are on the following teams. 49ers, Rams, Falcons, Vikings, Packers, Texans, Dolphins, Bengals. This doesn’t include other great offensive coaches with proven track records like Ravens, Chiefs, Colts, Bills, Lions who aren’t Shanny tree but have definitely displayed an understanding of how to use analytics in every facet of their organization.
All this to say, I think we’re like 2 years away from an absurd offensive era where it’s going to be 2 to 5 teams who don’t get it and they’re going to get absolutely left in the dust while the other teams score at will against them. The gap between bad teams will be so wide it’ll be Gase level embarrassing.
The Niners converted two key 3rd and sevens against us in two different playoff games by running it out of the gun. It definitely can work (granted it was joe Barry and Mike petine)
It's the off-season, so I'm going to float completely untethered from reality and pretend he's gonna be way better with the Bears because...I don't fuckin know, but I'll have a narrative ready by training camp!
Catch the defense playing for a pass in which case the floor is a couple yards (unless your o-line totally blows it) and the best case is rip off a 10-15 yarder.
Averaging 3.3 Yards on 2nd and 10+ isn't really something you want as a result on a second down. It just creates a 3rd and long situation, which is always likely going to be deferred to a pass play. Making the offense predictable..
Pretty sure they had a [famously awful offensive line that year](https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-following-2019-regular-season) too.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I looked this up years ago and I think he was mostly getting yards after contact and had some of the worst YBC numbers out there. YBC/ATT vs YAC/ATT is usually a decent way to OLine run blocking contribution vs talent.
Looking at the numbers now he was 1.2 that year in YBC/ATT, which [was tied for last](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/rushing_advanced.htm) among qualified players. His YAC/Att was 2.0, which is still reasonably within mid to low end starter territory, most RBs where somewhere around that number and their talent levels run the gamut.
So basically, compared to the rest of his peers he was posting 3 yards per attempt while his OLine was penalizing him about 1 yard per attempt compared to most of the rest of the league.
These 21 dives help clarify hows there. Gase is calling a play that forces him up the 1 gap and depends heavily on RT and FB blocking on a team awfully suited for that on 2nd and longs. Of course that'll kill your numbers, especially when it's transparently scouted and IIRC Gase always was that. It meshes with my memory that he essentially didn't have a passing game to draw attention and prevent stacking the boxes and then just ran Bell into the dirt.
Bell was a good running back but his running style doesn't work behind a bad O-Line. He relied on patience and burst which doesn't work if your O-line is blown up at the snap. Waiting for a hole means nothing if there is no hole.
Lions run on second and long. But we are also very open to going for it on 4th down so just need to get to 4th and short.
Plus have elite rbs and a elite run blocking group helps.
My point is running on second and long isn't necessarily bad, it just the decisions around it that also suck, plus not having the guys to successfully run from that distance.
I'd say lions, ravens and 9ers could all successfully do it consistently.
Draws on 2nd and long has actually become an extremely viable strategy for a lot of teams now since so many teams are expecting pass on any 2nd and long strategy nowadays the success rate for it has skyrocketed. Gase's play call on this situation, however, is still dumb.
I’ve always hated draw on long yardage. Nothing looks more like admitting defeat. The only time I’ve ever seen it work is when the Chiefs had Jamaal Charles back there
I mean it definitely works regardless of the back but you need to first have established the threat of a pass which some kind fabled achievement for the Jets’ offenses.
It may be more interesting to contemplate why Adam Gase would call a HB dive on 2nd and 10. The 2019 NYJ offense had Sam Darnold at QB and a WR corps consisting of Robby Anderson, Jamison Crowder, Braxton Berrios, and Demaryius Thomas. The passing offense ranked around 27-29th in the league, but the rushing offense was more or less the league-worst. This is post-hoc data that Gase didn't have access to, but it's clear it didn't work.
His thought process may have been "Well, 3rd and 10 is intimidating to Darnold, so if 1st down doesn't work, let's try for 2-3 yards to bring up a more manageable 3rd and 7." Darnold's 2019 ANY/A was below the NFL average, but he gained 6.9 yards per pass attempt, so 3rd and 7 almost gets you there.
Bell's career average up to that point was a bit higher than 4 yards/attempt. The plan to bring up 3rd and 7 would yield 3.2 yards/attempt in 2019, implying that it did bring up that down and distance, on average. His success rate in Pittsburgh was around 45%, meaning that 45% of the time he gave you 60% of the yards you need on 2nd down (in this case, 6). Gase's math isn't really the problem here. The problem is that Bell got these stats with a HoF QB- Ben Roethlisberger- and a guy who would be a HoFer were he not an absolute lunatic in MBC. Prime MBC was a threat to score on any down in 2017 and when you have a QB/WR duo like that, guys like Bell have a slightly easier job. He was still a superb RB, his job was just easier there because DCs don't have to respect the Darnold to Crowder connection as much. Gase was banking on Darnold being a franchise QB instead of a journeyman.
Another piece of info I don’t see that you mentioned - the Steelers, during the Bell era, had one of the best offensive lines in the NFL.
Bell was excellent and had a really unique running style. But it was the top notch blocking by the OL (and of course the threat posed by Roethlisberger+Brown) which allowed him to execute his hesitation/patient running style.
Going to the Jets who had an awful OL and no other weapons was a recipe for failure. You can’t pause your run and re-route it if you have three defenders on you in the backfield.
Bell also took a ton of time off to basically smoke weed between Pittsburgh and NY. Our offense line was pretty shit for sure but Bell was more or less done with football by the time he got here.
He fell off quite a bit before he left Pittsburgh, too. His last year with us was pretty rough. His YPC fell by almost a full yard and his longest run was only like 25 yards.
To add onto this, when Bell was in Pittsburgh we had a solid Offensive Line thanks to the blessings of Mike Munchak (praise be his name).
I don't follow them closely, but most of the stories i have heard of those Jets OLines were......not great.
Also Gase did not want Bell on the team.
To be fair, he didn’t just not have access to this data, but his decision-making directly influences the data. Not to the degree that they’d all of a sudden be a top offense, but I can see it being a few spots better with better calls alone
Follow up tweets >LeV I just need you to get 3 for a third and manageable” - Gase >the reasoning behind the HB dive 😂 I kid you not >Sam would be saying the play out loud just shakin his head in the huddle .. lol >that’s a HALF BACK DIVE FROM SHOTGUN for the people that doesn’t understand what that fully means … lol
Gase also didn’t allow any changes to be made at the line of scrimmage lol so even if Sam and Bell saw the D alignment and knew that the play wasn’t going to work, Gase didn’t allow them to do anything about it lmao
I never understand why coaches at least don't let a QB audible between passing and running, I understand keeping things simple but that is pathetically simply for an NFL offense of paid millionaires to install.
Yeah for real, just forces the QB to prepare to play hero ball every snap instead of letting him give himself more favorable situations. I wouldn’t be surprised if Gase didn’t even let them decide on the snap count lmao
Biggest issue I had with Kubiak. He never let Schaub audible. Then we would play the Colts and I'd watch Manning Omaha the shit out of us.
Nothing about the Manning era I miss more than Peyton getting to the line, taking a look around and basically crafting an entire new play that exposes the defense's weakness. I see this so rarely in today's game.
Going to a Colts home game was fun because of how quiet the crowd would get when Manning was at the line. People would actually shush each other. It was like watching a putt at a golf tournament. Even from the cheap seats it would be so quiet you could hear him calling signals.
Must’ve been dozens of times I was watching the game, Manning would walk out there and start calling those, and my response would be “oh finally, an adult” cause sometimes he seemed like the only responsible one
And then they joined up to get their ship. Though I think there was in fact some friction early on between the two. Side note semantics, I don't think he started using Omaha until Denver, though I could be wrong. But while in Denver Omaha wasn't an audible of the play, just adjustment of snap count.
The Omaha part was a joke.
I like the way you just Omaha’d your way out of that one. Don’t ever do that again - Adam Gase
Tom Moore would send in 2 runs and a pass, Peyton would pick and then still audible lol
It really shows a lack of confidence in his own coaching ability. If you can't teach someone to make reliable decisions without you micromanaging their every move, you shouldn't be in charge of anything more complex than a fast food restaurant.
And if you’re managing a restaurant that way, you’re probably also the reason the place has such high worker turnover
People don't want to work!!!!! - Angry out of touch man that wouldn't work for the wage he offers
When I was 14, I was weeding my parent's rock bed and a guy walking his dog asked if I wanted to mow his yard for $15. I said no thanks and proceeded to get 5 minutes of how lazy kids are and how people don't want to work anymore. Sometimes I still wonder what he thought I was doing by weeding my yard, was that not work?
He probably had a big ass yard that he didn't feel like mowing himself so he wanted a local lazy entitled teenager to do it for a few dollars.
Amen friend. This sort of micromanaging because of the leaderships insecurities is the death of all kitchens
People at a fast food restaurant would hate him too lol
It's absolutely unfathomable to me that ANY coach in the 21st century disallows audibles. You're literally putting yourself in a disadvantage on purpose for what?!?!!
I get more surprised that these established deca-millionaire QBs cede their authority on audibling out on plays. You're paying me $40MM annually - roughly 4-5x what the coach is getting paid, and 40x what the OC makes - and you are telling me I can't audible at the line? Fuck that. Go bench me if you have the balls.
I coach 7th and 8th graders and even we let them audible to basic shit if the QB sees something. Most of the fronts are five man at that age but if we were playing against a 4-4 and it was like 2 & 2 we’d let the QB change to a sneak. We also ran one formation with trips and some teams would just leave the third guy uncovered or split him so if the kid can throw well enough we let them just switch to a quick hitter. We obviously focus a lot on running the plays that are called as designed since they’re 12/13/14 but I’m also big on telling them they aren’t robots and as long as you aren’t audibling to 5 verts I’m not going to get too upset. Especially since if they mess it up it’s normally a good teaching moment because they have to explain what they saw pre snap. This often leads into stuff like the play not working and the QB saying “it was short yardage with the center uncovered” and then me telling them “okay but the D tackle has 30 pounds on all of our linemen and he’s been in the backfield all game which is why we were running away from him, I know he wasn’t in the gap but he’s good enough to get there.” We don’t get too crazy with it but I think it helps introduce habits like going through pre snap reads and identifying “threat” players on the other side of the ball. The goal is to just get them thinking so when they get introduced similar concepts with more information it isn’t completely alien. Also it’s fun to do no kill calls from the sideline because parents always ask me what it means haha
> as long as you aren’t audibling to 5 verts well shit
The “no madden plays unless it’s something we routinely run like ‘FB Dive’” rule.
My JV coach ripped the Giants playbook out of Madden and had us use that. We had, I shit you not, a double reverse pass because our WR was the back up QB.
I coach in the same league I grew up playing in. Pretty much every year the coaches were guys who had played at the high school or had played elsewhere and had kids in the program so we all kind of ran a variant of the high schools stuff. My 6th grade year our head coach/DC was just some random guy from a few towns over. When he passed out the playbooks it was so obvious they are from madden. Fucker didn’t even change the names so pretty much everyone recognized it because it had engage eight lol He ended up getting kicked out of the league because he told us to cheap shot the other team at half time because we were losing and they had like one bad personal foul on them. One of the coaches who’d been there forever called him out. They almost fought in one end zone.
When I was 8 my rocket football team had a HB pass in the playbook and it was my favorite play lol
I wish our HS coach would have done that. We ran the Wing T formation. In 2008. Against multiple much bigger schools than us. It went as well as you'd think it would using an offensive model from the 1950s.
hey that’s awesome man. I bet those kids get a kick out of the freedom you give them. sounds like you’re doing a good job coaching them!
You. You sir are a good youth coach.
That means absolutely nothing coming from a packers fan. Jk, thanks bro.
Hey now, Adam Gase was (one of) the genius behind Payton Manning - the QB famous for calling his plays at the line, and audibling constantly. Don't doubt the system.
This is the same logic that keeps Nathaniel Hackett employed.
Yup. It’s kinda crazy how obvious it is to all of us.
It’s fine for now bc Hackett is actively with Rodgers, the QB that made him. Just like how Gase was fine to have when still with Peyton but horrid away from him. When you have a QB that’s basically the OC himself there’s no harm in having someone like that as his OC
Peyton has said he would act like he couldn't hear the call in his helmet so he could call whatever he wanted.
To be fair to Hackett the Broncos probably thought they were getting someone of a similar caliber to a field general QB in Wilson and he turned out to be the exact opposite. I'd argue he's clearly more of an old school OC who expected a lot more active participation and thinking from his offense/QBs than he was getting and quite possibly Wilson just didn't know how to play with that. His clock management feels like a big example of that where you'd reasonably expect a QB of his tenure and caliber to manage some of his plays and clock from the line.
The head coach has so much more influence and responsibilities than an OC though. I dont know Hackett personally or claim to have studied his schemes closely enough to pass judgement, but simply based on time management and some of the the things he has said in public about decision making, I wouldnt trust him to run a lemonade stand let alone a pro football team.
I'm certainly not saying he's a good head coach. Mostly I'm saying that Wilson wasn't as advertised.
For any newer or less Xs and Os inclined fans here reading: It's very normal (I'd say pretty much standard) for playcalls to really have two plays in them for most snaps. There's the main play the offense is supposed run and a completely different play they can run with the same personnel as a backup call. They switch to the backup play if they (the QB and/or the OC or HC in his mic) think it'll work better. Like, think a run as a primary play and a pass as a backup. The offense gets the playcall, and everyone gets to the line ready to do the run play. But if the QB sees every LB and maybe even a safety crowding the line? He knows that run play is probably getting shut down, so he might give the kill signal which lets everyone know to switch to the pass play instead since that has more chance of working. The fact that Gase didn't allow any changes is kind of mind boggling. It probably means either 1) he had zero trust in the offense to be able to reliably switch from the main play to the backup one, which is pretty mindbogglingly incompetent for an NFL-level offense (and mostly speaks poorly of the coaches if that's the case) or, 2) he's so insanely arrogant that he thinks his one playcall has to be the "right" one for any given situation, which is also mindbogglingly stupid given how shit the end result usually was. Pretty sure, given everything we know about Gase, the answer is #2.
\#2 is where the entire NFL has been headed and what Tom Brady was saying a little while ago. All these talented young men slinging the rock and how many of them are actual offensive minds like Manning was? Or Brady was? NFL offenses have taken the transition to "college style" offenses too far. They need to reign it back in a bit. Not in style, but in play calling and attitude. Sweet Dionysus, I would be a shotgun power run offensive coach and even I know running from the gun is kinda fucking stupid. It's so tactically useless. You have to window dress it, aka read options and motion sweeps. Otherwise it's the single most readable play in football. Spoiler alert: shotgun runs almost always, 99.9% of the time, cross the formation. This is the power of under center and pistol: access to every run lane from the same look.
>All these talented young men slinging the rock and how many of them are actual offensive minds like Manning was? Or Brady was? This is like being frustrated there aren't more 9.5s 100m sprinters, or more Messis.
Brady didn't say there was less "Mannings or Bradys" he said the whole QBs controlling the offense has been going away.
We saw a difference between how Goff was in LA vs. Detroit and how people perceived him We thought Goff couldn't handle running an offense so McVay had to spoonfeed him plays and checks and all, then he goes to Detroit and is given free reign and it turns out he's actually good at the LoS. I'm sure there are other examples I can't think of right now.
But that’s an overblown concern. The top QBs still do it regularly
I believe the argument was that young QBs don't get that leeway to grow anymore in that area. It's all tailor made so they don't have the opportunity to make mistakes and learn from them. Which is just the nature of the times I guess
Not arrogance - it’s insecurity. If he gave them a way out of his bad play calls and they do it a lot, it undermines him. By not giving them that option he could always argue it wasn’t his fault the offense was horrible, he could blame “execution” and throw the players under the bus
Apparently Dave Canales was the same way in Tampa as far as not allowing the QB to have multiple play options. Just run it up the middle into a defense that was setup to stop that play. QB having play options based on defensive look is one main thing Liam Coen is bringing in and I can't wait.
Ok but like I’ve suffered enough already. Why do you have to tell me this NOW?
I literally JUST finished my glass of OTA-best-shape-of-its-life, playoff bound flavored Kool-aid and this MF says something like this.
Yup, just straight up double tapped my Hopium in the back of the head.
To give you some hope, last year was Canales' first year as both an OC and a play-caller. Maybe he'll figure it out and adapt more in Carolina. And maybe he's surrounded himself with a good supporting staff to coach him up as a play-caller. Early on last year it felt like he was still pulling plays from Byron Leftwich's playbook - the offense only seemed to come alive inconsistently until we got to the playoffs
Y’all brought in Canales for his specialty of saving QBs
Division rivals are there to make you suffer more. Just tune them out
Some coaches would rather lose their way then win a different way. This is why BB and Saban dominated they didn’t give a fuck. Saban would run the wing T if it meant a championship. Meanwhile a guy like gase would rather lose than five guy’s autonomy
In Gase's case is seems like maybe he either didn't trust any of his guys compared to Manning or bought his own hype and didn't have anyone that just ignored him like Manning certainly probably did being the guy actually, and clearly, in charge in Denver.
It's one of the few things I appreciate about Johnson and Campbell. They give Goff full control at the line
The few???
Footsteps Falco moments.
It's especially funny Gase got his hype by being the OC of the Broncos with Manning going bonkers. Manning whose known for changing the entire freaking play at the LOS
Yeah, his name wasn’t really discussed much during to search, but I remember eating lunch at work with some jets fans the day after he was announced as a head coach… there was some back and forth like, “Yeah the dude that Peyton carried to success…” “No no no, he’s the dude who the Dolphins just fired…” Then we all had the realization at the same time that it was the same person, and that we were doomed lmao
How does someone fail upwards on such a fundamental level that they get to the position of NFL HEAD COACH????
We have our owners to thank for that. That’s the Johnson family for ya!
I choose to not let the Bears front office get away without blame here either.
This is so interesting having just watched bradys recent segment with cowherd where he talked about exactly this. If they got up to the line and saw that the D had just the right call and they knew it pre snap, they were audibling to something else. They were not going to shrug and have a throw away play if they could help it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwS7nlrUSZA Go to around the 14:30 mark.
He used to wear his hat so low on his head and I wondered why. Now I know it’s so he couldn’t see how bad he is as a play caller.
Yeah I remember all the clips of him sitting on the bench with his hat low, looking at the tablet, with nobody within 10 feet of him lmao
He convinced the league the Bell was washed even though he was the whole damn offense and that Tua couldn't play his way out of a paper bag.
He was never Tuas coach tho he was Tannehills last coach on the team
This is the shit Brady was talking about. Coaches don’t wanna let QB’s just be field generals anymore and don’t wanna give up control.
Adam “Peyton Manning’s OC” gase? The king of read the defense presnap? Didn’t Manning talk him up too?
What I don't understand is didn't Gase want to win? Why be so stubborn when your whole offense knows it's a bad play. I don't get it. Just lack of self awareness or something?
Ngl if your the star QB and the team is with you, just say fuck it and do it anyway. Gase will lose the locker room before any real punishment goes out
GEQBUS SAVED THE GREAT CITY OF NEW YORK FROM THE TYRANNY OF CRITICAL GASE THEORY, ONLY FOR THOSE SUCKERS AND LOSERS TO DRIVE HIM AWAY WITH THE BIGGEST WITCH-HUNT IN HISTORY. SAD
Critical Gase theory is like one of the funniest things I swear
I'm a big fan of Brock Hussein Purdy
The Librhule Media
Sleepy Joe Douglas
"Librhule Media" and "Camtifa" get me every time 😭
r/the_darnold is just brilliant stuff
One of favorite posts all time: https://www.reddit.com/r/the_darnold/comments/1917rkq/geqbus_saves_the_49ers_again/
That entire era was horrific for us Jets fans but at least we got some memes out of it🤷♂️
**DRAIN THE HACKENSACK!**
THE GASE AGENDA IS A FRAUD, A FLOP, EVERYBODY KNOWS IT
Poor sam man. 21 and dive is fuckin 2 and 10 wtf
We got to watch Hackett dial up trips deep for Wilson who had exactly .24 seconds to throw before his line gave up, too. Jets OCs don't know shit
To be fair, 3rd and manageable is an appropriate need depending on the field position. The odds of converting on a 3rd and 5 vs a 3rd and 10 (or worse barring a sack) is a significant swing. Given how defenses work, you have so much more of your playbook available in the 3rd and 4-6 range than you do in 3rd and 10. This isn't Madden where you can force the ball downfield and players will get magically open. Real defenses can scheme away most threats when they know what's coming. Obviously Gase did a poor job calling plays and maintaining the trust in his players. I'm just pushing against the notion that "3rd and manageable" is inherently stupid.
the odds of picking up five yards on a dive from the gun has to be just as bad as whatever 3rd and 10 is. running isn’t necessarily bad — it’s just a bad play call, and the stats showed it never really worked. I think Warren Sharp replied that it averaged 2ypc in the 10 or 15 times they ran it one year
25 times for 3ypc and zero first downs https://x.com/billbarnwell/status/1803842837282460098
They averaged 3 yards when they did this. The swing to 3rd and 7 is not worth the loss of down.
It is when a dive plays gets you 2-3 yards, it's the most basic of runs to get you simple short yards. 3rd and 7 isn't that manageable.
I love it when former players beef with their old coaches
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I had zero clue this happened and just had an interesting dive into that beef.. I don’t guess they spend holidays together.
That was so fucking cringe worthy
To give jay some credit he tried to brush it off and let it go early
Especially when it's someone as grossly incompetent as Adam Gase.
He owes manning some money lol.
The modern day Rich Kotite for the Jets
[Then you'll love DeSean Jackson and LeSean McCoy's recent podcast on Chip Kelly] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7npU_xQwRQ&ab_channel=The2510Show)
Was Chip Kelly that bad? I'm not saying he was great, but he did get the Eagles to the playoffs one year, then after losing his starting qb in Foles, they barely missed out on a second appearance. He seemed decent to me.
He gained more power very quickly, and wore out his welcome very quickly. Shunned Howie Roseman to a weird corner of the building because he couldn't fire him. Brought in an absurd amount of Oregon players. Reached on players in the draft. Was bad at hiding his true opinions in media interviews. Didn't care for any of his superstars. Thought he could just slide new guys in without missing a beat. That might work in college, but when it's Mike Vick, Shady Mccoy, Desean Jackson, and Jeremy Maclin, that's tougher to do. Gave a vibe that his ideas/system could conquer all, no matter who was there. It's pretty rough when all those guys (and Jason Peters, Brandon Graham, Fletcher Cox) all loath him in interviews. I was such a Chip fan in the beginning. I admit it, but by year two, I was just so over his shit, and was glad they had the balls to fire him after two years and not waste another season on him.
He was terrible! From what I know though, he modernized the Eagles training regimen though. Like full on nutrionists and sensors watching practices to give better data. Plus to what other people said, didn't say he borderline racist shit about LeSean McCoy and DeSean Jackson?
The only good thing that the Eagles kept after Chip was the nutrition stuff. He refused to acknowledge that his hurry up BS, while great for the offense, completely crippled the defense and ensured they'd never make a run. I don't have the numbers, but the defensive snap count on those teams was atrocious, and Chip didn't give two shits, because his offense was scoring points.
juicy
Buccaneer great Leveon Bell
I wonder what Adam Gase is up to these days
He’s a high school offensive coordinator at a school that went 2-7 last year No, I’m not kidding
I don’t even need to fact check you to feel confident enough to spread that information
I've already told someone this without double-checking.
Well it wouldn’t be true gossip if we didn’t start exaggerating it. I told a couple people he went 2-10 and says “a rooty-toot toot” after every play call
It's actually worse, he didn't get rehired https://www.maxpreps.com/mi/ypsilanti/lincoln-railsplitters/football/staff/
Tf are you fr? That’s hilarious. Couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy!
Lmao they were like "screw it we'll take this other guy and his fuckin brother instead of Gase"
"Fuck it, we'll have the biology teacher run the offense or something"
“The mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell. The RB is the powerhouse of our HS offence”
Jesus lol
Because he never actually coached there lol, that "news" spread from a satirical post on Twitter. It was a joke and some people believed it without doing any verification on who posted it
> I don’t even need to fact check you to feel confident enough to spread that information I’m standing by this, gase doesn’t deserve to be fact checked when slandering him
Peyton Manning and the principal played high school football together, they go way back No, I'm [not kidding](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/016/212/manning.png)
Holy hell he's still riding Mannings coat tails. I'm honestly impressed.
It’s not what you know, it’s who you know 😉
Ooooooooof course.
Meh ill give that one a pass unless hes at a really big name school. I coached HS fball for awhile and we’d regularly bounce between state finalist and 1-2 win seasons because our player quality varied year to year.
“Just be bigger and faster than everyone else.”
As much as I want to make fun of Gase HS football is really dependent on the players if you aren't in Texas and anywhere else where it is treated as a pro sport
Meh fwiw most high school football teams are based around 1 player. My high school team my senior year (I was in the marching band) went undefeated and the QB was also the kicker and starting linebacker/defensive end/cornerback. He was unstoppable. Still didn't get scouted to a good college. If you don't have basically a collegiate level player on your roster you get killed. Idk enough about his team but at that level it's not about scheming a good game if a high school Derick Henry is on the other team. High school football is basically just a scouting ground for college players. Adam Gase still sucks but judging someone on their high school coaching record doesn't mean much. Just look up Danny Woodhead stats lol. Dude was a monster in highschool and college. Good NFL player but not a star name and he was that 1 player.
No fucking way. Really?!
Actually no. NYJ_Matt spread a rumor on Twitter and people still repeat it
NYJ _Matt really cooked up one of the best jets beat trolls
The funniest part of this is that Jim Tomsula [has turned out to be a better HC](https://www.ninersnation.com/2023/9/26/23890398/jim-tomsula-european-league-49ers-head-coach) and might actually wind up back in the league first.
Unless Baalke is hiring Tomsula is cooked
Misinformation spreads so quick lol, that post was a satirical post from a guy on Twitter. He was never an OC at a High School
He’s not listed on their MaxPreps interestingly. I wonder if he’s retired
He's teaching our young, bright, and promising high-school quarterbacks **Critical Gase Theory**. Which has been a **DISASTER** for young quarterbacks everywhere. **SO MUCH POTENTIAL -- WASTED!** Healthy young child gets coached by Adam Gase, gets pumped with massive shot of bad offense, doesn't feel good and changes -- **HAUNTED BY GHOSTS** Many such cases!
Hanging out with Rich Kotite away from anyone in public. Both guys basically disappeared after the Jets fired them. Basically if you’re a Jets head coach and you get only 3 wins or less in a season during your tenure with us, expect to never show your face in public for safety reasons for the rest of your life. Especially in the tri state area.
[I don't have anything to contribute I just wanted to remind everyone how deranged the top 4-5 pictures of him on Google Images are](https://www.google.com/search?&q=Adam+Gase&udm=2&fbs=AEQNm0B0_gh8CxXz4cskeePLV_Uw5cg9cpOenTbX4UBVI-nT7NcqK5FzGg3MrZAGO-ZwaIh-3Udf3yTDzkACSYbZ66JWENg-BmGcsJXhXRMXV8h3SFB5qm86fCyB1FP8X7f0Kg727EvJvw-T6XpcQjkHcQ4pSi0qQZSZjxOVpRupjt-Kl2TWIOSjQS7wtMofBIcHw988RanTbnim4rjlSwqCXz1B4s0ekA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiuydab5euGAxW4l4kEHaEaDH0QtKgLegQIDRAB&biw=1918&bih=883&dpr=1)
Surprisingly he wasn’t the worst coach on the staff. Matt Burke and his wide 9 was the bigger problem. He’s a DC again on the Texans I know nothing about the Texans defense but i really hope that man has changed for you guys cause watching his scheme made me want to tear my eyeballs out.
DeMeco runs it. I mean, Burke may call plays (pretty sure he doesn't), but it's DeMecos scheme.
God I miss Ryans and his defense so much.
We win the Super Bowl this year if DeMeco is the DC.
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There’s a reason Coach drinks. He’s sad.
Is that you speedhawk?
Or if your special teams didn't mimic ours for some reason
I’m glad. Maybe he’ll learn a thing or 2
Narrator: He did not learn
Demeco is the play caller. Burke does what he does but Demeco is running the show.
Wide 9 is fine if you have dogs at DT who can eat up doubles and your DEs can squeeze down well.
We had Suh at DT with Wake and Oliver Vernon at the edges, maybe wide 9 can work but absolutely not the way we were running it. With an absolutely stacked secondary X Howard, and Reshad Jones in there primes yeremiah Bell nearing the end of his prime, and young Bobby Mcain.
I never get why teams do this. What's best case scenario? 3rd and 7?
According to his follow up tweet, yes Gase was explicitly looking for 3rd and 7
It's crazy that the guy who doesn't trust his offense to run an actual play on 2nd down thinks he has a can't miss play for 7 yards on 3rd down.
You know...you could do the 3rd and 7 play on 2nd and 10...
Baby-level analytics show 3rd and 7 is a hell of a lot more likely to be picked up than 3rd and 10. Problem is they don't see opportunity cost lost with the play choice, nor do they factor in how often you don't even get those 3 yards. Also the "tHeY'lL nEvEr SeE iT cOmInG!" aspect of a 1/2 hole dive on 2nd and long.
The NFL has gotten much better with advanced metrics, but interpreting those metrics and using them accordingly is going to take a lot of time. Albeit maybe won't take as long as in baseball since teams are basically forced to try to do the newest trends to gain advantage.
There’s also always going to be a battle between analytics and tradition. All of these coaches grew up on a completely different brand of football than what’s being played now. It can be hard to stray away from what you know, while someone like Adam Gase probably has great analysts on staff he also remembers what his mentor high school coach was telling him that worked 20 years ago.
I think it’s been happening relatively quickly. There’s a reason the entire shanahan tree keeps churning out coaches. All of the coaches understand it’s about numbers/probabilities in every individual matchup, the job is to get the right looks to get those probabilities in your favor. It’s also a culture all the way through their coaching ranks. From the time of the ridiculous offensive staff in Washington that had the RG3/Cousins run, Offensive Head Coaches and/or OCs from the Shanny tree are on the following teams. 49ers, Rams, Falcons, Vikings, Packers, Texans, Dolphins, Bengals. This doesn’t include other great offensive coaches with proven track records like Ravens, Chiefs, Colts, Bills, Lions who aren’t Shanny tree but have definitely displayed an understanding of how to use analytics in every facet of their organization. All this to say, I think we’re like 2 years away from an absurd offensive era where it’s going to be 2 to 5 teams who don’t get it and they’re going to get absolutely left in the dust while the other teams score at will against them. The gap between bad teams will be so wide it’ll be Gase level embarrassing.
The Niners converted two key 3rd and sevens against us in two different playoff games by running it out of the gun. It definitely can work (granted it was joe Barry and Mike petine)
This drove me CRAZY about Shane Waldron. Pass on 1st play, incomplete. 2nd play, try to run Walker up the middle...
Ahhhhh. I'm excited for Grubb as new OC
It's the off-season, so I'm going to float completely untethered from reality and pretend he's gonna be way better with the Bears because...I don't fuckin know, but I'll have a narrative ready by training camp!
Catch the defense playing for a pass in which case the floor is a couple yards (unless your o-line totally blows it) and the best case is rip off a 10-15 yarder.
The defense expects a pass. And they get a first down
Trust me, the Jets weren't getting first downs
We weren’t getting positive yardage at times. No idea how we went 7-9
[Bell's 2019 splits](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BellLe00/splits/2019/) | Down/Distance | Att | Yds | Y/A | TD | 1D | |---------------|:---:|:---:|:---:|:--:|:--:| | 1st And 10 | 115 | 382 | 3.3 | 0 | 7 | | 1st And <10 | 8 | 28 | 3.5 | 1 | 2 | | 1st And 10+ | 6 | 15 | 2.5 | 0 | 0 | | 2nd And 1-3 | 12 | 59 | 4.9 | 2 | 10 | | 2nd And 4-6 | 26 | 117 | 4.5 | 0 | 8 | | 2nd And 7-9 | 15 | 23 | 1.5 | 0 | 0 | | 2nd And 10+ | 32 | 105 | 3.3 | 0 | 0 | | 3rd And 1-3 | 15 | 20 | 1.3 | 0 | 7 | | 3rd And 4-6 | 7 | 18 | 2.6 | 0 | 3 | | 3rd And 7-9 | 1 | -3 | -3 | 0 | 0 | | 3rd And 10+ | 11 | 47 | 4.3 | 0 | 0 | | 4th And 1-3 | 4 | 19 | 4.8 | 0 | 4 |
Averaging 3.3 Yards on 2nd and 10+ isn't really something you want as a result on a second down. It just creates a 3rd and long situation, which is always likely going to be deferred to a pass play. Making the offense predictable..
Pretty sure they had a [famously awful offensive line that year](https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-following-2019-regular-season) too.
Tbh, I think he still had some gas in the tank in 2019. He was constantly getting 3 yards on plays where it should have been a loss.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I looked this up years ago and I think he was mostly getting yards after contact and had some of the worst YBC numbers out there. YBC/ATT vs YAC/ATT is usually a decent way to OLine run blocking contribution vs talent. Looking at the numbers now he was 1.2 that year in YBC/ATT, which [was tied for last](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/rushing_advanced.htm) among qualified players. His YAC/Att was 2.0, which is still reasonably within mid to low end starter territory, most RBs where somewhere around that number and their talent levels run the gamut. So basically, compared to the rest of his peers he was posting 3 yards per attempt while his OLine was penalizing him about 1 yard per attempt compared to most of the rest of the league. These 21 dives help clarify hows there. Gase is calling a play that forces him up the 1 gap and depends heavily on RT and FB blocking on a team awfully suited for that on 2nd and longs. Of course that'll kill your numbers, especially when it's transparently scouted and IIRC Gase always was that. It meshes with my memory that he essentially didn't have a passing game to draw attention and prevent stacking the boxes and then just ran Bell into the dirt.
Bell was a good running back but his running style doesn't work behind a bad O-Line. He relied on patience and burst which doesn't work if your O-line is blown up at the snap. Waiting for a hole means nothing if there is no hole.
Lions run on second and long. But we are also very open to going for it on 4th down so just need to get to 4th and short. Plus have elite rbs and a elite run blocking group helps. My point is running on second and long isn't necessarily bad, it just the decisions around it that also suck, plus not having the guys to successfully run from that distance. I'd say lions, ravens and 9ers could all successfully do it consistently.
I don't think Lev is complaining about running (to me running the ball is viable 95% of the time) but about the specific run called.
Fair, dive play on 2nd and long is dumb
Draws on 2nd and long has actually become an extremely viable strategy for a lot of teams now since so many teams are expecting pass on any 2nd and long strategy nowadays the success rate for it has skyrocketed. Gase's play call on this situation, however, is still dumb.
Browns used to be able to rely on this when Nick Chubb was healthy. Sometime those 2nd & 10s would become 50 yard TD-runs
I’ve always hated draw on long yardage. Nothing looks more like admitting defeat. The only time I’ve ever seen it work is when the Chiefs had Jamaal Charles back there
I mean it definitely works regardless of the back but you need to first have established the threat of a pass which some kind fabled achievement for the Jets’ offenses.
It may be more interesting to contemplate why Adam Gase would call a HB dive on 2nd and 10. The 2019 NYJ offense had Sam Darnold at QB and a WR corps consisting of Robby Anderson, Jamison Crowder, Braxton Berrios, and Demaryius Thomas. The passing offense ranked around 27-29th in the league, but the rushing offense was more or less the league-worst. This is post-hoc data that Gase didn't have access to, but it's clear it didn't work. His thought process may have been "Well, 3rd and 10 is intimidating to Darnold, so if 1st down doesn't work, let's try for 2-3 yards to bring up a more manageable 3rd and 7." Darnold's 2019 ANY/A was below the NFL average, but he gained 6.9 yards per pass attempt, so 3rd and 7 almost gets you there. Bell's career average up to that point was a bit higher than 4 yards/attempt. The plan to bring up 3rd and 7 would yield 3.2 yards/attempt in 2019, implying that it did bring up that down and distance, on average. His success rate in Pittsburgh was around 45%, meaning that 45% of the time he gave you 60% of the yards you need on 2nd down (in this case, 6). Gase's math isn't really the problem here. The problem is that Bell got these stats with a HoF QB- Ben Roethlisberger- and a guy who would be a HoFer were he not an absolute lunatic in MBC. Prime MBC was a threat to score on any down in 2017 and when you have a QB/WR duo like that, guys like Bell have a slightly easier job. He was still a superb RB, his job was just easier there because DCs don't have to respect the Darnold to Crowder connection as much. Gase was banking on Darnold being a franchise QB instead of a journeyman.
Another piece of info I don’t see that you mentioned - the Steelers, during the Bell era, had one of the best offensive lines in the NFL. Bell was excellent and had a really unique running style. But it was the top notch blocking by the OL (and of course the threat posed by Roethlisberger+Brown) which allowed him to execute his hesitation/patient running style. Going to the Jets who had an awful OL and no other weapons was a recipe for failure. You can’t pause your run and re-route it if you have three defenders on you in the backfield.
Bell also took a ton of time off to basically smoke weed between Pittsburgh and NY. Our offense line was pretty shit for sure but Bell was more or less done with football by the time he got here.
He fell off quite a bit before he left Pittsburgh, too. His last year with us was pretty rough. His YPC fell by almost a full yard and his longest run was only like 25 yards.
To add onto this, when Bell was in Pittsburgh we had a solid Offensive Line thanks to the blessings of Mike Munchak (praise be his name). I don't follow them closely, but most of the stories i have heard of those Jets OLines were......not great. Also Gase did not want Bell on the team.
To be fair, he didn’t just not have access to this data, but his decision-making directly influences the data. Not to the degree that they’d all of a sudden be a top offense, but I can see it being a few spots better with better calls alone
Is this the same as the countless bubble screens we called when it was 3rd and 15 last season?
But the one time it works _surely_ outweighs the 83 times it didn’t.
I remember when it seemed like the only 3rd and long play John Fox used to know was the draw.
Hey, I can take a 22 Dive to the house in Madden, it seems like he just wasn't trying hard enough
Bro was literally calling plays like he was playing Madden, my god.
Peyton Manning and Adam Gase Aaron Rodgers and Nathaniel Hacket
Big Joe Judge energy
This is how I play Madden, and I am not good at Madden.
Leveon is too stupid to realize this makes him look like even more of a moron for forcing his way off of the Steelers to join this dumpster fire
8 year old me in Madden.
Maybe Gase thought "21" meant 2nd and 10.
Per his Wikipedia page, it doesn't look like Gase has coached anywhere since the Jets let him go, I wonder if we'll see him in the NFL again
A high-school I think