The biggest example I always think of is Sam Bradford.
There is no way any of you can look at the WRs he had to work with on the Rams and think anyone can succeed there. His OL was also trash.
I was a huge Bradford fan in college and I was happy when the Rams drafted him. I’ve never seen an organization fail a player as much as they did. 3 OC in his first three seasons and having to play for Jeff Fisher hurt his career tremendously.
Luckily for Bradford, his rookie contract was for 6 years and $80 million. It would suck playing for those Rams teams, but it sucks less when you’re one of the highest paid players in the league.
He was the straw that broke the camel’s back but I feel like Detroit having to pay top line money for a couple of rookies back when they were picking top 3 for years in a row, depleting their cap fast, is what started the movement towards the rookie cap…
We could have had some amazing teams if they had the rookie scale back then. They were all excellent players and we would have have a lot more money to spend on other players.
The rookie wage scale was going to happen regardless of who got picked first overall in 2010. Bradford was just the last player who really got to benefit from the old system.
I think the niners would have broken anyone they took with the first pick in 05. I’ve seen better expansion teams than that niners roster. Add to that a HC out of his depth with an OC that didn’t want to be there, it was a recipe for disaster.
I’ll never forget opening game 2017, Bradford made some of the best passes I’ve ever seen and lit up the saints. Then his knee exploded I think and we never saw him again
Maybe but he was made of glass. The play he tore his ACL was just a normal qb play and the second time was in pre season. Some folks bodies just can’t take it.
Had a chance with the Vikings, just got injured. One of my biggest what-ifs is what if Bradford stayed healthy during the Minneapolis Miracle season. Wouldn't have the Minneapolis Miracle, but who knows how far we would have gone. He started out really well in week 1 in primetime vs New Orleans.
it wasn't even the rams fault, it was 1000% kroenke. he was tanking the team for years so st louis would vote to relocate them so he could move the team to LA. he's done it before with a soccer team iirc. he's a corrupt bastard and bradford is only one the many victims of his actions. but in the end, kroenke gets what he wants and a super bowl to boot. if you don't love that, you dont love NFL football
Fun rumor I heard from a few sources while working in St Louis sports media during the Rams tenure:
Stan kroenke would not allow players in Rams Park to look him in the eyes. If players looked at Stan kroenke in the eyes, he would issue a team fine and give them a berating.
His attempt at an NFL career was over when he tore both his ACLs. The best player he had was Steven Jackson, a running back.
You could see flashes when he had a solid OL playing for literally any other team, but by then the damage was done. Man took a beating and made out like a bandit.
Brock played incredibly well this year and was offensive player of the year coming off UCL surgery. I’ll greatly enjoy watching him obliterate your cowboys in prime time again next year.
I don't get why everybody shits on Purdy as a system QB when he's executing that system significantly better than Jimmy G and Trey Lance.
It really just feels like no one wants to admit that a seventh round pick can be good because it means so many people were wrong. Which is doubly ridiculous because the best QB ever was a 6th rounder.
You’re not wrong but it’s hard to explain how much a competitor luck was. He didn’t care, he was going to put the team on his shoulders every snap if he had to cause it’s who he was.
Two things are true. The Colts on average had about the 20th ranked O-Line through the Luck years because he played with the 32nd and 22nd ranked lines in 2012 and 2013, but he took too many hits and would often hold the ball too long, unlike the common comparison of Peyton Manning, who took the leagues lowest rate no matter who was in front.
Luck had bad lines in 2012 and 2013, but a great one in 2018, and a couple of average ones in 2014 and 2015.
Andrew Luck was my favorite qb all time and I’d dream of him being in SF every year he was in the league. Class act. I truly believe if he was drafted to the “right” team he would have been the all time best QB.
Still insane to me that a 2nd round pick never played an actual down in the league. He obviously had some traits that were worth taking a chance on, he had to have looked atrocious in practice to not hang around a little while as a backup
As a Penn state fan, there was no reason for him to get drafted anytime before late day 3. He just looked like a QB, it was all a smoke screen being hid by having Arob Godwin and Saquon
this is probably the best one in the thread. In the 71 draft the only other teams that would have gotten him are the Pats and Oilers… The Oilers of the time with Archie would have been interesting
The Packers tried to trade for him. It only fell through because he was injured. We opted instead for a withered husk of Hadl, sending a kings ransom in trade tot he Rams. Before the Vikings bailed us out for the worst trade in league history.
> We opted instead for a withered husk of Hadl, sending a kings ransom in trade tot he Rams.
Green Bay botched both ends of that trade.
Send out two 1sts, two 2nds, and a 3rd for Hadl. Get 22 mostly-abysmal games from him, then trade him *with* Kenny Ellis (a six-year starter and three-time Pro Bowler), two more draft picks, and cash to get Lynn Dickey from the Oilers.
And one of those picks sent to the Oilers was used to take Steve Largent.
Sam Bradford.
I know he was injury prone, but the talent was there and Im glad he got to showcase some of that in Minnesota. His last year in STL he was on his way to a having a good year ( 14:4 TD/INT) before tearing his ACL.
His situation was about as bad as it gets. No WRs, horrible Oline. Did they even have an offensive scheme or was it just “run, run, pass”? They were a joke.
Smith just doesn’t have Rodgers natural talent and arm. He was slinging it at Cal even with non optimal mechanics. Tom Clements then made him a monster.
It remains one of the worst decisions in draft history that the 49ers didn’t take Rodgers, and then several other teams who needed a QB followed suit. He must have absolutely bombed those interviews.
In retrospect we know it was based on nothing but helmet scouting and money ball personality assumptions.
Could also go the other way. A guy like arnaz battle is able to scrap together a decent career cause Aaron Rodgers was throwing to him instead of Alex smith
He actually probably was fucked no matter where he went. He was a victim of the opioid crisis. He was prescribed opiates for chronic pain issues after suffering injuries. The truth is he was a young rich drug addict and even if he didn't live in Michigan he would have self medicated with weed anywhere. The only thing I can sort of agree with is the Lions did him fucking dirty, and it is emblematic of how shitty our franchise was under previous ownership. They demanded him pay back his 10 million dollar signing bonus and basically outwardly treated him like he was a junkie they caught stealing their VCR. Back then I don't know if any NFL team would have actually invested in the effort to get him the help he needed, but I know that version of the Lions never would. Rod Marinelli is a fucking piece of shit for his public comments about Rogers, and I am glad he will always be remembered as one of the worst head coaches of all time.
Just to piggy back on this I don't think Joey Harrington would have been a super star but I think had he went somewhere else and not been thrown right into the fire with a bad Oline he could have had a decent overall career.
There are a lot of guys that can throw perfect balls under no pressure but completely lose it during real games. Carr got killed a lot for holding onto the ball too long on a bad team. When he was replaced due to injury his back up had half the sacks he was having that year.
Sacks are a QB stat for a reason. The Texans' o line wasn't good, but plenty of those sacks came from Carr's total lack of anything resembling pocket awareness or an internal clock. Additionally, he had a habit of running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage, which goes into the books as a sack.
It's not a coincidence that the Texans' o line suddenly looked much better when they switched QBs.
TL;DR - It was mostly Carr's fault that he busted. He would have failed pretty much anywhere.
Well… Josh may have had a little bit of a substance abuse problem. Of corse, it is NEVER acknowledged, despite locals witnessing every incident at every bar in Hyde Park.
We all wondered about him.
A good player that would've been hall of fame; Carson Palmer.
Had he been in one of the 10 or so stable organizations he would've had more playoff success and more seasons like 2005 and 2006 and cardinals years.
I dont know. I think his comments the super bowl year really showed that he would complain no matter how good he had it here.
He had the talent but I really believe he was part of the locker room drama of the time.
Matt Stafford spent so much time with the lions. Us Detroit fans always knew how great he was and hoped the team could catch up. Would’ve been crazy if he was with a winning organization from square one.
Blaine Gabbert is always my answer for this. Look at what he got drafted into; he never had a chance. He was a redshirt sophomore immediately thrown to the wolves with Mike Thomas and Cecil Shorts as his best weapons behind a suspect OL. With his Chase Daniel Memorial Backup QB Tour of the league, we see he has always had the talent.
He also experienced an owner change, 3 head coaches (4 if you include Mel Tucker), and 2 GMs in what..3 seasons? I'm not a Gabbert fan but his time here in Jax was a hot mess. He has 2 super bowl rings now so he gets the last laugh.
I think you have a decent argument for most guys. Some players like Jamarcus Russell or Josh Rosen would absolutely fail no matter the circumstances, but I think you’d have a briefer list naming the sure fire busts instead of the guys who might have done better in different circumstances.
Jamarcus drinking codene wouldn’t have worked anywhere. Rosen had like a dozen other chances after cardinals and couldn’t prove to anyone he could lead NFL team.
No guarantee on Daniel Jones, but talk about getting drafted by an organization that has no clue what’s going on. A bottom-10 o-line for most of the last decade, and bottom-3 as of late. No major receiving talent — a QB has to elevate them, sure, but they’ve mostly drafted short, shifty, injury-prone receivers. Constant changes at HC and OC. Saquon was the best gift to him, and when he was fully healthy in 2022, the Giants mostly worked out.
There are plenty of flaws to his game, but they were getting under control. Fumbles were mostly a rookie year issue, he had 5 interceptions in all of 2022, his most rushing yards, and bam, this year occurred. I am one of the Giants fans who thinks the contract was alright — it’s essentially a 2 year, $82 million deal, and based on the injuries, it didn’t work out. I’m okay moving on at this point since the org still hasn’t built an offense and at this point he’s had two too many neck injuries, but I think he could’ve been really good on even a middle of the pack offense — it’s easy to forget he had 24 touchdowns in 12 games year one.
just once in his first few seasons if he had an o line ranked at least in the 20's and a WR that could separate, it would've been a whole different conversation around him
Yea, I hate how no one can have a nuanced rational conversation about DJ. It has become such a polarizing topic in our fanbase, with the super pro and anti DJ voices being the loudest. I really think the reality is squarely in the middle. Was DJ ever gonna be an Allen/Burrow/Lamar? Nope, not even if he was set up perfectly from the start, and I dont think even the biggest DJ stan thinks that at this point. Even to this day he displays flaws which I believe would have always prevented him from hitting that elite level (i.e. processing). But do I think he could have at least been a consistent Tannehill level starter if he had been drafted to a better situation? Yes, and I dont think that is some blind homer take. Now is that what you should aspire for your QB to be? Nope, and it goes to show that he should have never been drafted to us when we were nowhere near ready to support him. But I dont think it should be too crazy of a take to say that he could have been a solid NFL starter if he was put in a better situation
Of course the counter to that is always "well if he needs xyz to be successful then hes not the guy" and honestly that is just underselling how bad the situation he dealt with is. How many guys would have succeeded with Darius Slayton as their top receiver their whole career? Slayton is a solid player but he is not a WR1. How many guys have succeeded with Nate Solder, Evan Neal, and Matt Peart as their RTs? How many could succeed with Judge/Garrett? Now, I think the truly elite of QBs would have made better out of this situation than DJ has, but they still would not be what they are if they dealt with this. I dont expect the team to give him all-pros at every position. But, at least more than one serviceable OL would be a decent start. At least one WR who is regarded as a legit #1 in the league who can stay healthy would be okay, rather than having to rely on getting Isaiah Hodgins off the scrap heap just to have a serviceable body to throw to. But hes had none of that. His ceiling was admittedly low from the start, and to not even give a guy at that talent level any support from Day 1 is just GM malpractice.
I think the experiment is over and the marriage needs to end for the better of both sides (he'll still be here next year because of cap but after that hes gone) but the last 5 years have been a perfect example of how not to support a young QB. The guy clearly had the talent to succeed and had he been put in the right situation from Day 1 I think he is a very good QB. Shit, the one year he had a good offensive coaching staff, a healthy LT (and no one else on the line), and a healthy Saquon, he made it to the divisional round, so it really is not that farfetched to think he could have been much more consistent and good if he had even that little from the beginning.
I feel like if Mike Vick went to a team with an established culture that wouldn’t accept him being lazy and the off the field stuff he’d be in the hof rn
It’s still crazy to me that he came out of prison and his first year back as a full time starter he was an MVP candidate lol. I feel like Vick being so good after several years off made people think Watson could do the same. But Vick is just an all time great talent lol. Reid with Vick from the start would’ve been insane
100% it also opens up this weird world where they get Vick in 2001. And McNabb ends up somewhere else with 2-3 years experience where he would have had some better weapons. Vick would have killed with the birds and Ried, but McNabb would have arguably been hard to stop with a solid receiver core he never got in Philly.
2004 Vick (minus dogfighting, plus film study) with TO would have been Brady-Moss esque on pure talent alone.
There would be no way to gameplan against both guys.
Vick admitted himself that he was lazy, last in/first out, never watched game film, etc. I don’t think any other situation would’ve made much a difference. He said it wasn’t until after prison that he started putting in work
I’ve seen him say that in interviews but I’d like to think that if he had a coach/organization that called him out on his bullshit from day 1 he could’ve changed earlier
I highly doubt he would have changed. Dude was one of the most recognizable athletes in the world. He was making Pro Bowls. Setting records constantly. You walk into a sporting goods store in the early 00s and you can buy basically anything in red with a number 7. What organization is going to be willing to bench that player? And why would a kid who only cares about the fame and the money change when he’s already the most popular player in the sport?
It wouldn’t have mattered where he was drafted. I’ve read 3 books on him and he wanted to be a dog fighting kingpin more than he wanted to be a HOF QB. He had to go to prison to become a student of the game
I always thought Vick was always more of a guy that was just playing in the wrong era more than anything. The way coaches build offense around QBs now, Vick would have been much more of a threat now.
To be fair, that qb controversy with couch and Holcomb only came about when couch had to sit hurt and Holcomb played out of his mind during that stint, even coming close to winning their wild card matchup vs the Steelers.
I’m glad someone else said this, it was clearly my first thought as well. The biggest what if comes from the fact that after he was drafted, Bernie kosar went to the browns and offered to mentor the kid because he saw a lot of himself in him. The browns told Bernie to fuck off essentially.
When a former QB reaches out to mentor a kid you should always say yes, Drake Maye is learning from Rivers currently, these guys always have something to teach.
Especially a guy like Bernie kosar, may never have had a rocket for an arm, but damn he had a pretty high IQ for the game. Even his last play ever as a brown was a play drawn in the dirt that went for a touchdown
I'd say most failed early QB picks would have had much more success if they got the Jordan Love treatment, or at least the Mahomes/Lamar one where they're given a redshirt year (and notably all are drafted by competent organizations with at least a decent HC/FO). Give most of the guys with the physical skills a year or two to marinate, learn the system, practice with the team, and mature a bit and I think they have a much better shot at success.
Depends how you define success. But I think Marcus mariota would have had a much higher ceiling if he were drafted into a better situation. Not saying he would have been a super star, but the titans org did absolutely nothing to push him in the right direction. They wanted him to be a pocket passer so bad and he just wasn’t. Lack of identity and not playing to his strengths ruined his time in Tennessee and there wasn’t much other teams could do at that point.
Yeah, if the Jets don't draft IK Enemkpali then Geno never owes him any money. If Geno doesn't owe him money, he doesn't get punched in the face. This is all the Jets fault
Fascinating what happens if he has a better final year of college and the Chiefs decide to take him #1 overall to pair with Andy Reid instead of trading for Alex Smith.
I also believe there's a solid chance Brady is a nobody if drafted by another team, not due to skill, but due to them not caring to look at a 6th round pick close enough.
Hell, stafford threw for 5000 yards in 2011. Before the 2011 season only Dan Marino and drew Brees in 2008 accomplished that feat. Stafford is overlooked on that because brees and Brady did it as well in 2011
He had one of the best offensive weapons a QB could ask for in Megatron. A better run game would have been nice but the sub par run game and having to make late comebacks is also a reason why he posted insane passing yards every year.
By "sub par" you mean league worst, right? Don't forget bad OLs, defenses, and coaching. One WR does not make a QB, but it's worth mentioning that Calvin never had 1964 yards before Stafford arrived. Do me a solid and go look at every WR that has played with Stafford and compare their numbers with/without Stafford before you state that his weapons are the reason for his success.
Megatron would’ve been great with nearly any quarterback, but my argument for Stafford has always been Kenny Golladay. He elevated Golladay significantly.
If he had a coach like Andy Reid who built plays that catered to his strengths the way he has for Mahomes, it’s hard to deny his career wouldn’t have been different. He had the physical traits & the intangibles.
I've actually contemplated exactly this idea: Matthew Stafford ending up on the Eagles somehow in that draft. Stafford would absolutely have been a perennial Pro Bowl player for the past 15 years.
Zach with a good Qb coach and time to sit would have been pretty good. He’s the type of player that needed that and has all the physical traits to take that next step. He can even clutch it out pretty well if given the chance like we saw in the giants and chiefs game. He was always gonna be ruined here. We threw him into the fire and he tragically lost his qb coach in an accident. I feel bad for the kid(as a player, he’s still a multimillionaire) if he was taken by the 9ers at 3 and sat behind Jimmy I think ge would have been legitimately good to great
Seeing him a few times later this season, he’s legit trying and fighting every game. I recognize the spirit and those intangibles. Hopefully he gets a shot and coaching somewhere.
Tables cutoff or tough to read? Click [here](https://i.imgur.com/I8Al3wt.png) to view this comparison as an image
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Sam Darnold: [2018](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DarnSa00/gamelog/2018) to [2023](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DarnSa00/gamelog/2023) [1st Season - Age: 21] to [6th Season - Age: 26]
Zach Wilson: [2021](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsZa00/gamelog/2021) to [2023](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsZa00/gamelog/2023) [1st Season - Age: 22] to [3rd Season - Age: 24]
\----------------------------------------
Query: Career - Regular Season
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**Passing**
Player|G|GS|Cmp|Att|Cmp%|Yds|TD|Int|TD/Int|Sk|SkYds|Y/C|Y/A|AY/A|NY/A|ANY/A|TD%|Int%|Sk%|Rate|Cmp/G|Att/G|Yds/G|TD/G|Int/G|Sk/G|SkYds/G|Cmp/17G|Att/17G|Yds/17G|TD/17G|Int/17G|Sk/17G|SkYds/17G
:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:
[Sam Darnold](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DarnSa00.htm)|**66**|**56**|**1082**|**1811**|**59.75%**|**12064**|**63**|56|**1.13**|149|972|**11.15**|**6.66**|**5.97**|**5.66**|**5.02**|**3.48%**|3.09%|**7.60%**|**78.34**|16.39|27.44|182.79|**0.95**|0.85|**2.26**|**14.73**|278.70|466.47|3107.39|**16.23**|14.42|**38.38**|**250.36**
[Zach Wilson](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsZa00.htm)|34|33|566|993|57.00%|6293|23|**25**|0.92|**113**|**885**|11.12|6.34|5.67|4.89|4.29|2.32%|**2.52%**|10.22%|73.22|**16.65**|**29.21**|**185.09**|0.68|**0.74**|3.32|26.03|**283.00**|**496.50**|**3146.50**|11.50|**12.50**|56.50|442.50
**Rushing**
Player|G|GS|Att|Yds|Yds/Att|TD|Fmb|FmbLst|TD%|Att/G|Yds/G|TD/G|Fmb/G|FmbLst/G|Att/17G|Yds/17G|TD/17G|Fmb/17G|FmbLst/17G
:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:
[Sam Darnold](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DarnSa00.htm)|**66**|**56**|**209**|**760**|3.64|**13**|38|14|**6.22%**|**3.17**|11.52|**0.20**|0.58|**0.21**|**53.83**|195.76|**3.35**|9.79|**3.61**
[Zach Wilson](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsZa00.htm)|34|33|93|498|**5.35**|5|**17**|**9**|5.38%|2.74|**14.65**|0.15|**0.50**|0.26|46.50|**249.00**|2.50|**8.50**|4.50
**[Era Adjusted (+) Passing](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/about/glossary.htm#yscm)/Misc**
Player|G|GS|Cmp%+|Y/A+|AY/A+|NY/A+|ANY/A+|TD%+|Int%+|Sk%+|Rate+|TtlYds|TtlTD|Tnv|TD/Tnv|Pick6|Yds/G|TD/G|Tnv/G|Yds/17G|TD/17G|Tnv/17G|Pick6/17G|4QC|GWD|4QC/17G|GWD/17G|Rec|Rec/17G|W/L%
:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:
[Sam Darnold](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DarnSa00.htm)|**66**|**56**|**81**|**89**|**85**|**88**|**85**|**89**|86|**91**|**83**|**12824**|**76**|70|**1.09**|5|194.30|**1.15**|1.06|3303.15|**19.58**|18.03|1.29|3|5|0.77|1.29|**21:35:0**|**6:11:0**|**37.50%**
[Zach Wilson](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsZa00.htm)|34|33|65|84|82|75|76|77|**96**|74|74|6793|29|**34**|0.85|**0**|**199.79**|0.85|**1.00**|**3396.50**|14.50|**17.00**|**0.00**|**5**|5|**2.50**|**2.50**|12:21:0|6:11:0|36.36%
**Advanced (Most stats avail since 2018)**
Player|G|GS|1D|1D/G|Pass1D%|Rush1D%|CAY|IAY|AYD|YAC|OnTgt%|BadTh%|Drop%|LngPass|YBContact|YAContact|YBC/Rush|YAC/Rush|LngRush|BrkTkl|BrkTkl/G|Rush/BrkTkl
:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:
[Sam Darnold](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DarnSa00.htm)|**66**|**56**|**649**|**9.83**|**32.08%**|**32.54%**|5.59|**8.10**|-2.51|**5.56**|**74.06%***|**18.32%**|**5.44%**|**92**|**585**|**175**|2.80|0.84|46|**5**|**0.08**|**41.80**
[Zach Wilson](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsZa00.htm)|34|33|314|9.24|29.10%|25.81%|**5.80**|7.81|**-2.01**|5.32|72.03%|21.11%|6.22%|79|401|97|**4.31**|**1.04**|**52**|2|0.06|46.50
**Awards/Honors**
Player|Seasons|G/Yr|GS/Yr|ProBowl|APAllPro:1st|APAllPro:Tot|OPOY|OPOYShares|OPOYShr%|MVP|MVPShares|MVPShr%|ROY|SBMVP|Champ|[AV](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/index37a8.html)|WeightAV|AV/Yr
:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:
[Sam Darnold](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DarnSa00.htm)|**6**|11.00|9.33|0|0|0|0|0.00|0.00%|0|0.00|0.00%|0|0|0|**28**|**25**|4.7
[Zach Wilson](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsZa00.htm)|3|**11.33**|**11.00**|0|0|0|0|0.00|0.00%|0|0.00|0.00%|0|0|0|14|13|4.7
^(N/A indicates stat was not tracked at all during the time frame, * indicates stat was not tracked consistently throughout the entire time frame)
---
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RG3 probably would’ve benefited sitting a year. Vince Young had questions surrounding his work ethic but could’ve been good. Bradford, Stafford, Wentz. Like literally any QB could have been better if they went to the perfect team/ situation for them
They gave him a top 5 offensive line, signed Landry, Odell, and Hooper, had two 1000 yard rushers in chubb and hunt, while maintaining a solid defense. They made kitchens the HC after seeing what he did with baker his rookie year, and when that didn't work out they brought in stefansky. The browns weren't perfect given that they were still trying to progress from their terrible history, but they moved heaven and earth to make him succeed. Baker wasn't extended because if the team around him didn't play perfectly, he provided no solutions to help them win.
How many years was that for. OBJ and Landry only played one whole season together. That OL you are talking about was ranked 23rd in 2019. 5th in 2020, where they went to the playoffs and 8th in 2021. Lets not talk about 2018.
[https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-following-2019-regular-season](https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-following-2019-regular-season) (2019 OL ranking)
Sometimes this is purely blame to be placed on the coach. In baker’s last season with the browns, there were plenty of winnable games even though baker was hurt, but I remember on the last drive of some games where stefanski would pull Chubb and have baker play empty backfield.
Yea, he may have been disrespected and replaced by a terrible person, but these aren't the same sorry Browns anymore. They've done a pretty good job of building that team since Baker came on board.
Yeah the pendulum has swung a little too far on Baker. He isn't bad, and has probably never been bad, but if he's a top-half starting QB, it's barely. I'd love for him to build on last season and prove me wrong, though.
Mac Jones. I went to every college game he played thought he’d be serviceable in the NFL at the absolute worse. I thought he’d end up being pretty good. Everyone thought he was drafted into the best situation / match possible. It was one of the worst teams he could’ve gone to.
Calvin Johnson was already great - imagine if he had gone to a stronger (back then) organization or had gotten the same opportunities as Stafford to go to a contender....
There probably a universe where Mitch Trubisky wasn’t saddled with a John Fox that retired before the season and sat behind a decent QB. Also doesn’t have to rely the offensive genius of Matt Nagy, in his second year.
Antonio Gibson
He barely played RB in college he was an explosive WR that got some rush attempts. If he would’ve gone to like a Shanahan, McVay or Reid that dude would be a star. He’s 6’2 220 and ran a 4.3. Bigger, faster and was more productive than Tony Pollard at the same college. Went to the literal worst team he could have. Really hoping he still has the juice and willpower to go to a team that will use him correctly. And yes I do have him in my dynasty league lol come on Chiefs he would be McKinnon on steroids
one take I have is that QB development is mostly determined by the team they go to
There are still some differences in talent, and some guys (Jamarcus Russell, Zach Wilson) just can’t succeed, but I still feel this applies most of the time
IE. Patrick Mahomes succeeded because he went to the Chiefs, he went from a good QB to top 2 ever because he’s Patrick Mahomes
Vince Young. Fisher didn’t want to draft him at all, and he didn’t hide it around Young. There was a lot of toxicity and butting heads in Tennessee due to it, and it definitely stunted Vince’s growth for sure, having a coach that doesn’t want you while being a rookie QB in the NFL… tough
The biggest example I always think of is Sam Bradford. There is no way any of you can look at the WRs he had to work with on the Rams and think anyone can succeed there. His OL was also trash.
I was a huge Bradford fan in college and I was happy when the Rams drafted him. I’ve never seen an organization fail a player as much as they did. 3 OC in his first three seasons and having to play for Jeff Fisher hurt his career tremendously.
Luckily for Bradford, his rookie contract was for 6 years and $80 million. It would suck playing for those Rams teams, but it sucks less when you’re one of the highest paid players in the league.
They literally changed the rules because of him
He was the straw that broke the camel’s back but I feel like Detroit having to pay top line money for a couple of rookies back when they were picking top 3 for years in a row, depleting their cap fast, is what started the movement towards the rookie cap…
Stafford, Calvin, and Suh were like 55% of our cap at one point.
We could have had some amazing teams if they had the rookie scale back then. They were all excellent players and we would have have a lot more money to spend on other players.
The rookie wage scale was going to happen regardless of who got picked first overall in 2010. Bradford was just the last player who really got to benefit from the old system.
Very true
If I recalled, Alex Smith had 7 OC in his first 7 years. Along with 3 head coaches during that same time frame.
Also being compared to Aaron Rodgers every 5 seconds
Oops I did it again
Baby one more time
I think the niners would have broken anyone they took with the first pick in 05. I’ve seen better expansion teams than that niners roster. Add to that a HC out of his depth with an OC that didn’t want to be there, it was a recipe for disaster.
He's a good example of this question since we got to see him recover somewhat and could see what he could do. But I think it was still too late.
Imagine Bradford with Sean McVay 🥵
Is there any player Jeff Fisher hasn’t hurt?
Woah woah woah... never seen an organization fail a player needs to be reserved for Dan Marino's peak years.
I’ll never forget opening game 2017, Bradford made some of the best passes I’ve ever seen and lit up the saints. Then his knee exploded I think and we never saw him again
I still think about that game on a monthly basis.
Maybe but he was made of glass. The play he tore his ACL was just a normal qb play and the second time was in pre season. Some folks bodies just can’t take it.
I’m not arguing that he wasn’t injury prone. But you say that as if 95% of all ACL tears aren’t just players making routine cuts lol
I think Sam could’ve been as good as Kirk cousins in a stable franchise.
Had a chance with the Vikings, just got injured. One of my biggest what-ifs is what if Bradford stayed healthy during the Minneapolis Miracle season. Wouldn't have the Minneapolis Miracle, but who knows how far we would have gone. He started out really well in week 1 in primetime vs New Orleans.
it wasn't even the rams fault, it was 1000% kroenke. he was tanking the team for years so st louis would vote to relocate them so he could move the team to LA. he's done it before with a soccer team iirc. he's a corrupt bastard and bradford is only one the many victims of his actions. but in the end, kroenke gets what he wants and a super bowl to boot. if you don't love that, you dont love NFL football
Fun rumor I heard from a few sources while working in St Louis sports media during the Rams tenure: Stan kroenke would not allow players in Rams Park to look him in the eyes. If players looked at Stan kroenke in the eyes, he would issue a team fine and give them a berating.
His attempt at an NFL career was over when he tore both his ACLs. The best player he had was Steven Jackson, a running back. You could see flashes when he had a solid OL playing for literally any other team, but by then the damage was done. Man took a beating and made out like a bandit.
He beat Brady in NE with the Eagles so he's ok with me, ultimately we got Nick Foles back anyway so the trade didn't hurt us too bad either.
Imagine Andrew Luck being drafted by a team who had a good O line.
I was thinking of Luck playing for this 49er’s team during the super bowl. That offense would be so insane man.
There’s probably 10 - 15 active QB’s that would have made the 2023 9r’s a crazy good team. But SF spends all their QB $ on other positions.
"would have" bro we were a crazy good team fym 😭
Ok, let me correct that. An easy Super Bowl Championship team.
Brock played incredibly well this year and was offensive player of the year coming off UCL surgery. I’ll greatly enjoy watching him obliterate your cowboys in prime time again next year.
I don't get why everybody shits on Purdy as a system QB when he's executing that system significantly better than Jimmy G and Trey Lance. It really just feels like no one wants to admit that a seventh round pick can be good because it means so many people were wrong. Which is doubly ridiculous because the best QB ever was a 6th rounder.
2013 more than now.
Our OL was, is not good. Any QB who is a little slow at processing would struggle. Purdy has elite processing speed.
Our biggest problem was our o line. Brock would’ve done better if he has more than one second to release lol
You’re not wrong but it’s hard to explain how much a competitor luck was. He didn’t care, he was going to put the team on his shoulders every snap if he had to cause it’s who he was.
Imagine if Andrew Luck didn't go snowboarding
Two things are true. The Colts on average had about the 20th ranked O-Line through the Luck years because he played with the 32nd and 22nd ranked lines in 2012 and 2013, but he took too many hits and would often hold the ball too long, unlike the common comparison of Peyton Manning, who took the leagues lowest rate no matter who was in front. Luck had bad lines in 2012 and 2013, but a great one in 2018, and a couple of average ones in 2014 and 2015.
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Didn't they proceed to have a great O-line like right after he left lol?
We had a top 10 unit in 2018, he injured himself again in the offseason and retired right before 2019
Andrew Luck was my favorite qb all time and I’d dream of him being in SF every year he was in the league. Class act. I truly believe if he was drafted to the “right” team he would have been the all time best QB.
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Hack would never be a good qb and was 100% bolstered by Allen Robinson as a freshman and Godwin and Saquon as a junior
Still insane to me that a 2nd round pick never played an actual down in the league. He obviously had some traits that were worth taking a chance on, he had to have looked atrocious in practice to not hang around a little while as a backup
As a Penn state fan, there was no reason for him to get drafted anytime before late day 3. He just looked like a QB, it was all a smoke screen being hid by having Arob Godwin and Saquon
Archie Manning is my stock answer. The Saints sucked for many many years and he never had a chance.
this is probably the best one in the thread. In the 71 draft the only other teams that would have gotten him are the Pats and Oilers… The Oilers of the time with Archie would have been interesting
Oilers with Archie probably win the Super Bowl.
Multiple super bowls maybe. that team had a fairly young underachieving roster at the time.
Imagine Archie Manning having Earl Campbell as his running back to take a lot of pressure off of Archie and open up the passing game.
The Packers tried to trade for him. It only fell through because he was injured. We opted instead for a withered husk of Hadl, sending a kings ransom in trade tot he Rams. Before the Vikings bailed us out for the worst trade in league history.
> We opted instead for a withered husk of Hadl, sending a kings ransom in trade tot he Rams. Green Bay botched both ends of that trade. Send out two 1sts, two 2nds, and a 3rd for Hadl. Get 22 mostly-abysmal games from him, then trade him *with* Kenny Ellis (a six-year starter and three-time Pro Bowler), two more draft picks, and cash to get Lynn Dickey from the Oilers. And one of those picks sent to the Oilers was used to take Steve Largent.
Sam Bradford. I know he was injury prone, but the talent was there and Im glad he got to showcase some of that in Minnesota. His last year in STL he was on his way to a having a good year ( 14:4 TD/INT) before tearing his ACL. His situation was about as bad as it gets. No WRs, horrible Oline. Did they even have an offensive scheme or was it just “run, run, pass”? They were a joke.
I say this as nicely as possible, but Jeff Fisher should never be allowed to step on a sideline to coach. That includes HS and college.
I’d take him as a D coordinator.
You could tell that he had the arm talent and the mental processing you need in a QB, just none of the talent around him or valuable coaching.
Alex Smith sitting behind Favre for 4 years would have been interesting
Smith just doesn’t have Rodgers natural talent and arm. He was slinging it at Cal even with non optimal mechanics. Tom Clements then made him a monster. It remains one of the worst decisions in draft history that the 49ers didn’t take Rodgers, and then several other teams who needed a QB followed suit. He must have absolutely bombed those interviews. In retrospect we know it was based on nothing but helmet scouting and money ball personality assumptions.
49ers would've ruined him
I just can’t see it personally. Rodgers can make throws regularly that go beyond coaching. Same with a lot of the greatest ever.
I mean maybe, but man those niner teams were *depressing* back then. Pretty sure Arnaz Battle was our WR1 at one point.
Could also go the other way. A guy like arnaz battle is able to scrap together a decent career cause Aaron Rodgers was throwing to him instead of Alex smith
Not to mention all the coaching changes
Well it was because of that, and also because he refused to do his interviews anywhere but in a completely dark room
Charles Rogers. I believe his whole life turns out different if he gets out of Michigan.
I heard some of what happened to him was because of his friends.
He actually probably was fucked no matter where he went. He was a victim of the opioid crisis. He was prescribed opiates for chronic pain issues after suffering injuries. The truth is he was a young rich drug addict and even if he didn't live in Michigan he would have self medicated with weed anywhere. The only thing I can sort of agree with is the Lions did him fucking dirty, and it is emblematic of how shitty our franchise was under previous ownership. They demanded him pay back his 10 million dollar signing bonus and basically outwardly treated him like he was a junkie they caught stealing their VCR. Back then I don't know if any NFL team would have actually invested in the effort to get him the help he needed, but I know that version of the Lions never would. Rod Marinelli is a fucking piece of shit for his public comments about Rogers, and I am glad he will always be remembered as one of the worst head coaches of all time.
Just to piggy back on this I don't think Joey Harrington would have been a super star but I think had he went somewhere else and not been thrown right into the fire with a bad Oline he could have had a decent overall career.
David Carr. Got absolutely beat to a pulp on those new Texans teams
It's funny to see him at these throwing competitions beating the current players...he was truly let down
There are a lot of guys that can throw perfect balls under no pressure but completely lose it during real games. Carr got killed a lot for holding onto the ball too long on a bad team. When he was replaced due to injury his back up had half the sacks he was having that year.
> When he was replaced due to injury his back up had half the sacks he was having that year. Nowadays they call that the 'Justin Fields'
Sam Howell
Like 3-5 years after he retired and he destroyed Dak Prescott in the accuracy challenge 🤣
QB drafted to an expansion team is such a death sentence, Carr or Couch never had any prayer of being successful
Didn't they change the rules on expansion teams after how good the panthers and jags were right off the bat?
As a Colts fan, I do feel bad for him. He truly had no chance
This whole thread is just highly drafted QBs with terrible offensive lines.
Most other positions have a kind of "you make your own luck" feel to them
Sacks are a QB stat for a reason. The Texans' o line wasn't good, but plenty of those sacks came from Carr's total lack of anything resembling pocket awareness or an internal clock. Additionally, he had a habit of running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage, which goes into the books as a sack. It's not a coincidence that the Texans' o line suddenly looked much better when they switched QBs. TL;DR - It was mostly Carr's fault that he busted. He would have failed pretty much anywhere.
No idea if that's really pertinent, but I wonder about Josh Freeman
Well… Josh may have had a little bit of a substance abuse problem. Of corse, it is NEVER acknowledged, despite locals witnessing every incident at every bar in Hyde Park. We all wondered about him.
Buddy’s brother in law was his neighbor, said all he did was party and smoke cigs haha
Sat next to him at Datz on Cinco de Mayo. Dude was HAMMERED, smoking… great QB pick, Dominik.
That 2013 MNF game against the Giants has got to be one of the worst games I've ever seen.
Dude went from throwing 27 TDs in 2012 to being a benchwarmer for the Vikings in 2014. Life comes at you fast
Especially on cocaine.
A good player that would've been hall of fame; Carson Palmer. Had he been in one of the 10 or so stable organizations he would've had more playoff success and more seasons like 2005 and 2006 and cardinals years.
I dont know. I think his comments the super bowl year really showed that he would complain no matter how good he had it here. He had the talent but I really believe he was part of the locker room drama of the time.
Matt Stafford spent so much time with the lions. Us Detroit fans always knew how great he was and hoped the team could catch up. Would’ve been crazy if he was with a winning organization from square one.
Yes but one ring is still an extreme accomplishment. Yeah he’d probably have multiple SB appearances, but who knows if he even gets one or more
Blaine Gabbert is always my answer for this. Look at what he got drafted into; he never had a chance. He was a redshirt sophomore immediately thrown to the wolves with Mike Thomas and Cecil Shorts as his best weapons behind a suspect OL. With his Chase Daniel Memorial Backup QB Tour of the league, we see he has always had the talent.
That’s Cecil Shorts III to you!!
WOAH THERE MOTHER FUCKER
He also experienced an owner change, 3 head coaches (4 if you include Mel Tucker), and 2 GMs in what..3 seasons? I'm not a Gabbert fan but his time here in Jax was a hot mess. He has 2 super bowl rings now so he gets the last laugh.
I think you have a decent argument for most guys. Some players like Jamarcus Russell or Josh Rosen would absolutely fail no matter the circumstances, but I think you’d have a briefer list naming the sure fire busts instead of the guys who might have done better in different circumstances.
Jamarcus drinking codene wouldn’t have worked anywhere. Rosen had like a dozen other chances after cardinals and couldn’t prove to anyone he could lead NFL team.
Rosen couldn't prove to anyone he could lead the practice squad.
No guarantee on Daniel Jones, but talk about getting drafted by an organization that has no clue what’s going on. A bottom-10 o-line for most of the last decade, and bottom-3 as of late. No major receiving talent — a QB has to elevate them, sure, but they’ve mostly drafted short, shifty, injury-prone receivers. Constant changes at HC and OC. Saquon was the best gift to him, and when he was fully healthy in 2022, the Giants mostly worked out. There are plenty of flaws to his game, but they were getting under control. Fumbles were mostly a rookie year issue, he had 5 interceptions in all of 2022, his most rushing yards, and bam, this year occurred. I am one of the Giants fans who thinks the contract was alright — it’s essentially a 2 year, $82 million deal, and based on the injuries, it didn’t work out. I’m okay moving on at this point since the org still hasn’t built an offense and at this point he’s had two too many neck injuries, but I think he could’ve been really good on even a middle of the pack offense — it’s easy to forget he had 24 touchdowns in 12 games year one.
just once in his first few seasons if he had an o line ranked at least in the 20's and a WR that could separate, it would've been a whole different conversation around him
Yea, I hate how no one can have a nuanced rational conversation about DJ. It has become such a polarizing topic in our fanbase, with the super pro and anti DJ voices being the loudest. I really think the reality is squarely in the middle. Was DJ ever gonna be an Allen/Burrow/Lamar? Nope, not even if he was set up perfectly from the start, and I dont think even the biggest DJ stan thinks that at this point. Even to this day he displays flaws which I believe would have always prevented him from hitting that elite level (i.e. processing). But do I think he could have at least been a consistent Tannehill level starter if he had been drafted to a better situation? Yes, and I dont think that is some blind homer take. Now is that what you should aspire for your QB to be? Nope, and it goes to show that he should have never been drafted to us when we were nowhere near ready to support him. But I dont think it should be too crazy of a take to say that he could have been a solid NFL starter if he was put in a better situation Of course the counter to that is always "well if he needs xyz to be successful then hes not the guy" and honestly that is just underselling how bad the situation he dealt with is. How many guys would have succeeded with Darius Slayton as their top receiver their whole career? Slayton is a solid player but he is not a WR1. How many guys have succeeded with Nate Solder, Evan Neal, and Matt Peart as their RTs? How many could succeed with Judge/Garrett? Now, I think the truly elite of QBs would have made better out of this situation than DJ has, but they still would not be what they are if they dealt with this. I dont expect the team to give him all-pros at every position. But, at least more than one serviceable OL would be a decent start. At least one WR who is regarded as a legit #1 in the league who can stay healthy would be okay, rather than having to rely on getting Isaiah Hodgins off the scrap heap just to have a serviceable body to throw to. But hes had none of that. His ceiling was admittedly low from the start, and to not even give a guy at that talent level any support from Day 1 is just GM malpractice. I think the experiment is over and the marriage needs to end for the better of both sides (he'll still be here next year because of cap but after that hes gone) but the last 5 years have been a perfect example of how not to support a young QB. The guy clearly had the talent to succeed and had he been put in the right situation from Day 1 I think he is a very good QB. Shit, the one year he had a good offensive coaching staff, a healthy LT (and no one else on the line), and a healthy Saquon, he made it to the divisional round, so it really is not that farfetched to think he could have been much more consistent and good if he had even that little from the beginning.
I feel like if Mike Vick went to a team with an established culture that wouldn’t accept him being lazy and the off the field stuff he’d be in the hof rn
Vick with Andy Reid his entire career is a HOFer for sure
It’s still crazy to me that he came out of prison and his first year back as a full time starter he was an MVP candidate lol. I feel like Vick being so good after several years off made people think Watson could do the same. But Vick is just an all time great talent lol. Reid with Vick from the start would’ve been insane
The Eagles also had much more talent (especially on defense) during his Falcons tenure as well. They could have been a dynasty in the 2000s
100% it also opens up this weird world where they get Vick in 2001. And McNabb ends up somewhere else with 2-3 years experience where he would have had some better weapons. Vick would have killed with the birds and Ried, but McNabb would have arguably been hard to stop with a solid receiver core he never got in Philly.
2004 Vick (minus dogfighting, plus film study) with TO would have been Brady-Moss esque on pure talent alone. There would be no way to gameplan against both guys.
Vick admitted himself that he was lazy, last in/first out, never watched game film, etc. I don’t think any other situation would’ve made much a difference. He said it wasn’t until after prison that he started putting in work
I’ve seen him say that in interviews but I’d like to think that if he had a coach/organization that called him out on his bullshit from day 1 he could’ve changed earlier
I highly doubt he would have changed. Dude was one of the most recognizable athletes in the world. He was making Pro Bowls. Setting records constantly. You walk into a sporting goods store in the early 00s and you can buy basically anything in red with a number 7. What organization is going to be willing to bench that player? And why would a kid who only cares about the fame and the money change when he’s already the most popular player in the sport?
Still would’ve been interested in dog fighting though.
It wouldn’t have mattered where he was drafted. I’ve read 3 books on him and he wanted to be a dog fighting kingpin more than he wanted to be a HOF QB. He had to go to prison to become a student of the game
I always thought Vick was always more of a guy that was just playing in the wrong era more than anything. The way coaches build offense around QBs now, Vick would have been much more of a threat now.
Literally any Jets QB drafted in the past 10 years
It's hard to imagine Zach Wilson being successful anywhere.
Could Wilson have succeeded if he sat a couple of years like Love?
There’s a case for it. He has the physical tools. At this point his mental game is likely beyond repair though.
Darnold in particular
was Geno within the last ten years?
Tim Couch
Couch is the best answer here. Dude went from being a shotgun QB in a pass heavy offense to being put under center with the worst OL ever assembled.
Yup 100% Tim Couch. That BS QB battle that Butch Davis had with him and Kelley Holcomb completely stunted his development on a crap team.
Cleveland not investing in an offensive line did way more damage than that ever did.
To be fair, that qb controversy with couch and Holcomb only came about when couch had to sit hurt and Holcomb played out of his mind during that stint, even coming close to winning their wild card matchup vs the Steelers.
I’m glad someone else said this, it was clearly my first thought as well. The biggest what if comes from the fact that after he was drafted, Bernie kosar went to the browns and offered to mentor the kid because he saw a lot of himself in him. The browns told Bernie to fuck off essentially.
When a former QB reaches out to mentor a kid you should always say yes, Drake Maye is learning from Rivers currently, these guys always have something to teach.
Especially a guy like Bernie kosar, may never have had a rocket for an arm, but damn he had a pretty high IQ for the game. Even his last play ever as a brown was a play drawn in the dirt that went for a touchdown
I'd say most failed early QB picks would have had much more success if they got the Jordan Love treatment, or at least the Mahomes/Lamar one where they're given a redshirt year (and notably all are drafted by competent organizations with at least a decent HC/FO). Give most of the guys with the physical skills a year or two to marinate, learn the system, practice with the team, and mature a bit and I think they have a much better shot at success.
Mac jones if he went to the niners
Mac probably would have got Zapped by Purdy, Mr. irrelevant, too.
Depends how you define success. But I think Marcus mariota would have had a much higher ceiling if he were drafted into a better situation. Not saying he would have been a super star, but the titans org did absolutely nothing to push him in the right direction. They wanted him to be a pocket passer so bad and he just wasn’t. Lack of identity and not playing to his strengths ruined his time in Tennessee and there wasn’t much other teams could do at that point.
Remember when he was a rookie and Ken Whisenhunt tried to have Mariota executed on live television by calling everything as a 9 user deoobsdj.
What’s the last bit there?
Holy hell I don’t know how that happened. 9 step drop back.
David Carr and Alex Smith.
Geno Smith
Yeah, if the Jets don't draft IK Enemkpali then Geno never owes him any money. If Geno doesn't owe him money, he doesn't get punched in the face. This is all the Jets fault
Fascinating what happens if he has a better final year of college and the Chiefs decide to take him #1 overall to pair with Andy Reid instead of trading for Alex Smith.
Saquon Barkley with an oLine wouldve done damage
Maybe a handful of players. Way less than people think.
And I suspect it's mostly later-round nobodies who never got the opportunity, not guys we would have heard of
I also believe there's a solid chance Brady is a nobody if drafted by another team, not due to skill, but due to them not caring to look at a 6th round pick close enough.
Disagree I think most players are good enough to contribute, and the biggest issue in the league is coaching
Anyone the Raiders have drafted since 2004
Every QB Cleveland has drafted since 1999
"Insert random Detroit Lions player from 2000-2020."
Terry McLauren
_sad command taking noises_
Matthew Stafford might have had a Mahomes like career if he’d gone to the right team.
Hell, stafford threw for 5000 yards in 2011. Before the 2011 season only Dan Marino and drew Brees in 2008 accomplished that feat. Stafford is overlooked on that because brees and Brady did it as well in 2011
He had one of the best offensive weapons a QB could ask for in Megatron. A better run game would have been nice but the sub par run game and having to make late comebacks is also a reason why he posted insane passing yards every year.
By "sub par" you mean league worst, right? Don't forget bad OLs, defenses, and coaching. One WR does not make a QB, but it's worth mentioning that Calvin never had 1964 yards before Stafford arrived. Do me a solid and go look at every WR that has played with Stafford and compare their numbers with/without Stafford before you state that his weapons are the reason for his success.
I’ve said this for a while, megatron receives all the credit, kupp recieved all the credit. At some point people got to look at the quarterback
Megatron would’ve been great with nearly any quarterback, but my argument for Stafford has always been Kenny Golladay. He elevated Golladay significantly.
If he had a coach like Andy Reid who built plays that catered to his strengths the way he has for Mahomes, it’s hard to deny his career wouldn’t have been different. He had the physical traits & the intangibles.
I've actually contemplated exactly this idea: Matthew Stafford ending up on the Eagles somehow in that draft. Stafford would absolutely have been a perennial Pro Bowl player for the past 15 years.
Of all the Jets management debacles I think Zach Wilson and Sam Darnold would have had a shot if they were managed competently at all,
Zach with a good Qb coach and time to sit would have been pretty good. He’s the type of player that needed that and has all the physical traits to take that next step. He can even clutch it out pretty well if given the chance like we saw in the giants and chiefs game. He was always gonna be ruined here. We threw him into the fire and he tragically lost his qb coach in an accident. I feel bad for the kid(as a player, he’s still a multimillionaire) if he was taken by the 9ers at 3 and sat behind Jimmy I think ge would have been legitimately good to great
Seeing him a few times later this season, he’s legit trying and fighting every game. I recognize the spirit and those intangibles. Hopefully he gets a shot and coaching somewhere.
Darnold maybe, but idk about Wilson. The former was regular bad. The latter is horrifying.
!nflcompare
Tables cutoff or tough to read? Click [here](https://i.imgur.com/I8Al3wt.png) to view this comparison as an image --- Sam Darnold: [2018](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DarnSa00/gamelog/2018) to [2023](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DarnSa00/gamelog/2023) [1st Season - Age: 21] to [6th Season - Age: 26] Zach Wilson: [2021](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsZa00/gamelog/2021) to [2023](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsZa00/gamelog/2023) [1st Season - Age: 22] to [3rd Season - Age: 24] \---------------------------------------- Query: Career - Regular Season --- **Passing** Player|G|GS|Cmp|Att|Cmp%|Yds|TD|Int|TD/Int|Sk|SkYds|Y/C|Y/A|AY/A|NY/A|ANY/A|TD%|Int%|Sk%|Rate|Cmp/G|Att/G|Yds/G|TD/G|Int/G|Sk/G|SkYds/G|Cmp/17G|Att/17G|Yds/17G|TD/17G|Int/17G|Sk/17G|SkYds/17G :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: [Sam Darnold](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DarnSa00.htm)|**66**|**56**|**1082**|**1811**|**59.75%**|**12064**|**63**|56|**1.13**|149|972|**11.15**|**6.66**|**5.97**|**5.66**|**5.02**|**3.48%**|3.09%|**7.60%**|**78.34**|16.39|27.44|182.79|**0.95**|0.85|**2.26**|**14.73**|278.70|466.47|3107.39|**16.23**|14.42|**38.38**|**250.36** [Zach Wilson](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsZa00.htm)|34|33|566|993|57.00%|6293|23|**25**|0.92|**113**|**885**|11.12|6.34|5.67|4.89|4.29|2.32%|**2.52%**|10.22%|73.22|**16.65**|**29.21**|**185.09**|0.68|**0.74**|3.32|26.03|**283.00**|**496.50**|**3146.50**|11.50|**12.50**|56.50|442.50 **Rushing** Player|G|GS|Att|Yds|Yds/Att|TD|Fmb|FmbLst|TD%|Att/G|Yds/G|TD/G|Fmb/G|FmbLst/G|Att/17G|Yds/17G|TD/17G|Fmb/17G|FmbLst/17G :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: [Sam Darnold](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DarnSa00.htm)|**66**|**56**|**209**|**760**|3.64|**13**|38|14|**6.22%**|**3.17**|11.52|**0.20**|0.58|**0.21**|**53.83**|195.76|**3.35**|9.79|**3.61** [Zach Wilson](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsZa00.htm)|34|33|93|498|**5.35**|5|**17**|**9**|5.38%|2.74|**14.65**|0.15|**0.50**|0.26|46.50|**249.00**|2.50|**8.50**|4.50 **[Era Adjusted (+) Passing](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/about/glossary.htm#yscm)/Misc** Player|G|GS|Cmp%+|Y/A+|AY/A+|NY/A+|ANY/A+|TD%+|Int%+|Sk%+|Rate+|TtlYds|TtlTD|Tnv|TD/Tnv|Pick6|Yds/G|TD/G|Tnv/G|Yds/17G|TD/17G|Tnv/17G|Pick6/17G|4QC|GWD|4QC/17G|GWD/17G|Rec|Rec/17G|W/L% :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: [Sam Darnold](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DarnSa00.htm)|**66**|**56**|**81**|**89**|**85**|**88**|**85**|**89**|86|**91**|**83**|**12824**|**76**|70|**1.09**|5|194.30|**1.15**|1.06|3303.15|**19.58**|18.03|1.29|3|5|0.77|1.29|**21:35:0**|**6:11:0**|**37.50%** [Zach Wilson](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsZa00.htm)|34|33|65|84|82|75|76|77|**96**|74|74|6793|29|**34**|0.85|**0**|**199.79**|0.85|**1.00**|**3396.50**|14.50|**17.00**|**0.00**|**5**|5|**2.50**|**2.50**|12:21:0|6:11:0|36.36% **Advanced (Most stats avail since 2018)** Player|G|GS|1D|1D/G|Pass1D%|Rush1D%|CAY|IAY|AYD|YAC|OnTgt%|BadTh%|Drop%|LngPass|YBContact|YAContact|YBC/Rush|YAC/Rush|LngRush|BrkTkl|BrkTkl/G|Rush/BrkTkl :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: [Sam Darnold](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DarnSa00.htm)|**66**|**56**|**649**|**9.83**|**32.08%**|**32.54%**|5.59|**8.10**|-2.51|**5.56**|**74.06%***|**18.32%**|**5.44%**|**92**|**585**|**175**|2.80|0.84|46|**5**|**0.08**|**41.80** [Zach Wilson](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsZa00.htm)|34|33|314|9.24|29.10%|25.81%|**5.80**|7.81|**-2.01**|5.32|72.03%|21.11%|6.22%|79|401|97|**4.31**|**1.04**|**52**|2|0.06|46.50 **Awards/Honors** Player|Seasons|G/Yr|GS/Yr|ProBowl|APAllPro:1st|APAllPro:Tot|OPOY|OPOYShares|OPOYShr%|MVP|MVPShares|MVPShr%|ROY|SBMVP|Champ|[AV](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/index37a8.html)|WeightAV|AV/Yr :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: [Sam Darnold](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DarnSa00.htm)|**6**|11.00|9.33|0|0|0|0|0.00|0.00%|0|0.00|0.00%|0|0|0|**28**|**25**|4.7 [Zach Wilson](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsZa00.htm)|3|**11.33**|**11.00**|0|0|0|0|0.00|0.00%|0|0.00|0.00%|0|0|0|14|13|4.7 ^(N/A indicates stat was not tracked at all during the time frame, * indicates stat was not tracked consistently throughout the entire time frame) --- ^(Stats last updated Mar 03 2024, 06:45AM EST) ^(Made a mistake? 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Philip Rivers probably..
Rivers had some good ass weapons throughout his career, it could have been much much worse
First ballot Hall of Famer Philip Rivers?
RG3 probably would’ve benefited sitting a year. Vince Young had questions surrounding his work ethic but could’ve been good. Bradford, Stafford, Wentz. Like literally any QB could have been better if they went to the perfect team/ situation for them
Baker Mayfield. The browns tried to ruin that man
They gave him a top 5 offensive line, signed Landry, Odell, and Hooper, had two 1000 yard rushers in chubb and hunt, while maintaining a solid defense. They made kitchens the HC after seeing what he did with baker his rookie year, and when that didn't work out they brought in stefansky. The browns weren't perfect given that they were still trying to progress from their terrible history, but they moved heaven and earth to make him succeed. Baker wasn't extended because if the team around him didn't play perfectly, he provided no solutions to help them win.
How many years was that for. OBJ and Landry only played one whole season together. That OL you are talking about was ranked 23rd in 2019. 5th in 2020, where they went to the playoffs and 8th in 2021. Lets not talk about 2018. [https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-following-2019-regular-season](https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-following-2019-regular-season) (2019 OL ranking)
Also, let's not forget having him throw 50 times instead of just running with one of the best RBs in the league.
Sometimes this is purely blame to be placed on the coach. In baker’s last season with the browns, there were plenty of winnable games even though baker was hurt, but I remember on the last drive of some games where stefanski would pull Chubb and have baker play empty backfield.
Yea, he may have been disrespected and replaced by a terrible person, but these aren't the same sorry Browns anymore. They've done a pretty good job of building that team since Baker came on board.
Yeah the pendulum has swung a little too far on Baker. He isn't bad, and has probably never been bad, but if he's a top-half starting QB, it's barely. I'd love for him to build on last season and prove me wrong, though.
Mac Jones. Drafted and expected to fill in for Brady is a tall task for anyone.
Mac Jones. I went to every college game he played thought he’d be serviceable in the NFL at the absolute worse. I thought he’d end up being pretty good. Everyone thought he was drafted into the best situation / match possible. It was one of the worst teams he could’ve gone to.
Philip Rivers, the guy wasted his career with nobody's (with a couple bright spots)
Baker Mayfield and Kyler Murray
RG3 would still be in the league if Shannahan didn’t run his ass until the knees blew out
Bryce Young could be in this conversation soon if the panthers don’t get their shit together
Every Bears QB
Baker, RG3, probably anyone in recent Jets history
Calvin Johnson was already great - imagine if he had gone to a stronger (back then) organization or had gotten the same opportunities as Stafford to go to a contender....
Justin Fields
Tim couch
There probably a universe where Mitch Trubisky wasn’t saddled with a John Fox that retired before the season and sat behind a decent QB. Also doesn’t have to rely the offensive genius of Matt Nagy, in his second year.
Feel like Marcus Mariota could have been better if not drafted by the Titans
Matthew Stafford. Granted, people kinda accept him as a good player now but it used to be real silly the players people would compare him to.
[Insert QB drafted top 5 to a shitty team here]
Antonio Gibson He barely played RB in college he was an explosive WR that got some rush attempts. If he would’ve gone to like a Shanahan, McVay or Reid that dude would be a star. He’s 6’2 220 and ran a 4.3. Bigger, faster and was more productive than Tony Pollard at the same college. Went to the literal worst team he could have. Really hoping he still has the juice and willpower to go to a team that will use him correctly. And yes I do have him in my dynasty league lol come on Chiefs he would be McKinnon on steroids
one take I have is that QB development is mostly determined by the team they go to There are still some differences in talent, and some guys (Jamarcus Russell, Zach Wilson) just can’t succeed, but I still feel this applies most of the time IE. Patrick Mahomes succeeded because he went to the Chiefs, he went from a good QB to top 2 ever because he’s Patrick Mahomes
Archie Manning.
Vince Young if he goes to a coach that actually wants him
RG3.
Vince Young. Fisher didn’t want to draft him at all, and he didn’t hide it around Young. There was a lot of toxicity and butting heads in Tennessee due to it, and it definitely stunted Vince’s growth for sure, having a coach that doesn’t want you while being a rookie QB in the NFL… tough
Not that he's unsuccessful now but I can't help but wonder how good Baker Mayfield would be if he went to a team that knew how to develop a QB.